00:05:08 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:07:45 gnomon_ [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:08:42 -!- gnomon_ [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:51 I hope he didn't wait for his computer to turn off before going to the shower 00:10:35 sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-34-233-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:11:56 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:23:16 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:16 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 00:23:37 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:11 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:30:59 -!- ws [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: ...] 00:40:39 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@124-197-5-216.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:46 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@207.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:04 eli: ping 00:44:39 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-250-93.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:45 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 00:56:33 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-34-233-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:35 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:58:05 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-233-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:58:30 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:00 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176195237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:20 foof: ? 01:03:23 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:06:08 can you obtain meta-info (imports&exports) of a module without expanding the body of the module in PLT languages? 01:06:14 {Nathan} [~nathan@pa-76-2-65-221.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 01:09:07 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:10:16 paint [~paint@unaffiliated/paint] has joined #scheme 01:10:46 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:48 foof: No, because it's possible for macros to expand to require/provide. 01:11:27 Unless it's compiled, and in this case there's an introspective interface that can get the two lists of names. 01:12:47 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:13:22 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:59 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 01:15:03 <{Nathan}> I have a decent background in Python, C, BASIC (way back in the day), and Java, C++, and Linux. What's a good resource for me to learn Scheme from? 01:15:22 hmmm... 01:15:44 The Little Schemer. Or, just dive in and figure it out as you go. 01:15:58 eli: but if I recall correctly, macros can't expand into module forms? 01:16:31 asarch [~asarch@187.132.137.12] has joined #scheme 01:17:13 foof: No -- not to module forms, but you still need to expand the module's body to get macros that expand to require/provide forms, which is why you can't get that information without running any (syntax level) code. 01:17:19 *eli* wil brb 01:17:28 s/wil/will/ 01:17:35 s/will/will be/ 01:17:45 s/will be/will/ 01:17:53 Not at this rate, you won't! 01:17:56 s/.*/hates sed/ 01:19:11 I'm trying to place PLT within the context of syntactic (Chez) vs. meta-module (Scheme48) systems. 01:19:59 The languages act as meta-modules, but allowing expansion into require/provide forms make it syntactic. 01:20:15 I guess they are orthogonal issues :/ 01:21:08 But on reflection, multiple meta-modules (i.e. languages) seems to me vastly superior to the single meta-module Scheme48 has, and I will be switching Chibi to support multiple languages. 01:26:33 If I had to try to stick it into that continuum, I'd place it as a syntactic system that starts off in an environment with one binding - namely, `module'. 01:27:38 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:07 psiblue [~psiblue@wnpgmb1302w-ad01-202-88.dynamic.mts.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:17 -!- Syntropy|Laptop [~who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has left #scheme 01:32:43 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37:17 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:34 -!- psiblue [~psiblue@wnpgmb1302w-ad01-202-88.dynamic.mts.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:55 -!- ski is now known as ski__ 01:40:43 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 01:42:44 ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:42:54 -!- ski__ [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 01:45:43 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-126.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:50:26 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #scheme 01:50:33 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-126.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:52:55 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:05 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:04:49 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-126.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:07:32 foof: I don't know what exactly you mean by syntactic, but it's roughly like what chandler said: 02:07:43 you start off with exactly one binding for `module'. 02:08:12 A (module X L body ...) will basically expand to: 02:08:24 (#%module-begin body ...) 02:08:35 where the bindings now are the ones from L. 02:08:42 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:58 So specifically, L should provide `#%module-body' which can do some whole-module transformation. 02:09:34 In the expansion process, any `provide' and `require' form -- ones that appear literally or in expansions -- specify the exports and imports resp. 02:11:20 OK 02:11:52 can you write a language that allows for module definitions but provides some alternate module syntax? 02:14:08 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:19:26 boily [~boily@dsl-173-206-66-215.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 02:20:53 foof: What do you mean? 02:22:07 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:30 well, the `module' form can't be completely static since you support R6RS `library' forms in #lang r6rs 02:27:30 foof: That's a lie, obviously, and it should be clear how so. 02:27:48 ? 02:27:49 When it reads this: #lang r6rs (library blah ...) 02:27:56 It invokes the r6rs reader, 02:28:17 (which is mostly like the plain sexpr reader modulo the expected bunch of tweaks) 02:28:28 and then it wraps the whole thing in a `module'. 02:28:38 oh, so you're saying (library ...) is _reader_ syntax, not macro syntax? 02:28:46 So what racket really sees is (module whatever r6rs (library blah ...)) 02:28:52 No no -- the above. 02:29:24 Now, the r6rs module will provide a `#%module-begin' binding which looks for a body that has a single `library' form, and process it accordingly. 02:29:30 how is that not reader syntax? 02:29:37 And if there's anything else, it will complain. 02:29:51 Which reader syntax do you see here? 02:30:25 oh, nm, i see 02:30:42 i didn't see the library form was inside the module 02:30:54 Right. 02:31:15 where does the module name come from? 02:31:58 It could also be processed by the r5rs reader -- it could read the body and expect a (library blah ...) then return as the reader's result just the contents of that, but that would be ugly, and won't work if you use (module X r6r6 (library blah ...)) 02:32:06 The module name comes from the filename. 02:32:12 _danb_ [~user@124-170-209-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:32:29 It used to be significant, and mzscheme would throw an error if the name was different than the file name, 02:32:42 and the `#lang' reader would carefully construct a name that matches the file name. 02:32:49 But now the name is just ignored. 02:33:12 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:33:54 -!- boily [~boily@dsl-173-206-66-215.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:34:03 and of course the name of the outer `module` has nothing to do with any uses of the identifier `module` inside the body? 02:34:29 I'm not following that. 02:35:27 i.e. you could have a language with it's own `module` form? 02:35:43 You mean have a binding for `module' inside the language? 02:35:57 e.g. (module name r7rs (module ...)) 02:35:58 That's possible, though generally confusing. 02:36:20 It's used, for example, if you want to define modules on the repl. 02:37:04 Another place where it's used is in the `racket/load' language which has a body that is kind of like its loaded into a repl -- which is useful for examples where you want to have several modules in one file. 02:37:14 It's usually used in bugreports and such. 02:38:31 but a single file can't hold more than one module? 02:38:51 In the case of the `racket/load' language, it can. 02:39:11 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/load-lang.html 02:39:45 But like I said, it's not really used for much more than quick demonstrations and bugreports. 02:41:08 could something like racket/load allow modules to be expanded from macros? 02:43:10 I think so. 02:43:15 hmmm... it's just using eval so i guess so, but then the modules couldn't be pre-compiled 02:44:05 All code is getting compiled. The only difference is that it won't have any byte-compiled code for the module bodies, and instead do it all at runtime. 02:45:03 right 02:45:59 anyway, what i'm trying to do is two things: 1) classify the types of module systems out there and 2) show that many of them are at the same time worth supporting and fundamentally incompatible 02:46:16 Here -- this works: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x 02:46:52 I can't help you much with this classification, since my knowledge of the different systems is pretty shallow. 02:46:53 with the conclusion that you can't do any better than provide a "static" module syntax for everyone to agree on and leave the implementation and extension semantics unspecified 02:47:12 How would that do any good? 02:48:33 well, that's what R6RS does, and you can implement the R6RS module syntax with any number of strategies 02:50:31 on the other hand, if you were to specify more extended semantics, such as "modules are syntactic forms which can be expanded from macros" it wouldn't work with standard PLT modules. if you specified just require/provide forms can be expanded from macros, it wouldn't work with Scheme48 modules. 02:50:45 Well, r6rs restricts the semantics enough (in some aspects explicitly, and in others by making certain things unspecified), so there's some degree of compatibility that can be used. 02:51:00 right 02:51:01 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:35 As for modules that can result from macro expansion -- that could work as long as we can add some #!r7rs at the top. 02:52:03 `#!' is basically an alternative syntax for `#lang', made to make the r6rs thing possible. 02:56:48 when resorting to EVAL you can use similar hacks in Scheme48 02:56:57 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:02 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:57:56 the problem is that the whole Scheme48 philosophy is that you _want_ the module description separate from the code, to keep the namespaces separate and to allow for static analysis 02:59:46 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:06:33 foof: I know the philosophy, and I've never seen the big advantage. 03:06:41 curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:10:51 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:58 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 03:14:49 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:27 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:14 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:51 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:54 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 03:33:42 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.137.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:14 asarch [~asarch@187.132.137.12] has joined #scheme 03:37:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:06 -!- curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:30 Fare [~Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 03:51:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:41 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:00:56 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:04:36 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:05:08 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:25 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:07:01 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:11:56 Checkie [3852@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 04:12:57 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:16:30 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.62] has joined #scheme 04:18:27 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 04:20:54 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:24 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:32 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:30:13 eli: it's not a matter of whether it's a big advantage, but whether there's any advantage at all 04:30:58 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: off] 04:31:32 from a standards perspective, allowing expanding of modules, imports and exports from macros is equivalent to saying that the Scheme48 philosophy is so completely worthless it isn't worth acknowledging, and forcing Scheme48 to abandon it's current module system in favor of a new one 04:37:08 foof: Ah, that makes sense. But the same can be said on r6rs vs s48. 04:37:39 with many aspects of R6RS, but not the syntax of the module system 04:38:29 that is, apart from any phasing issues it's easy to support R6RS modules in s48 04:39:57 Oh, ok. 04:40:37 personally i'm still unconvinced of the best module system, and am therefore hesitant to cut off any options so early 04:41:15 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:20 Well, that's likely to stay open for a long time... 04:44:07 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 04:47:51 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:48:14 Chibi has few enough users right now I'm not too concerned about changes to the module system, but at a certain point it will get mired in backwards compatibility :/ 04:48:24 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 04:51:07 alaricsp: We'll need more precise language, of course, but I like your parameters proposal. 04:51:40 (In particular, in the absense of a thread proposal we need to define what you mean by "thread.") 04:52:10 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 04:58:13 alaricsp: wrt your exceptions proposal, providing abort makes me uneasy 05:00:29 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:00:50 where/for-what are these proposals? 05:01:30 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ErrorsSnellPym and http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ParametersSnellPym 05:04:03 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:05:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:05 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:11:23 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:05 so this seems to be a new head, parallel to r6rs. is this off the err5rs that i read about? 05:15:06 it's basically r7rs, it takes ideas from r5rs, r6rs and err5rs 05:16:18 fair. but it defaults to r5rs, all other things begin equal? 05:17:48 yes 05:18:01 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 05:18:52 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:20:29 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:21 kercyr [~jkim@c-98-212-25-205.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:22:54 I like the elegance of UniqueTypesSnellPym. Either as a funciton or as a special form, it would play well with a lot of constructs. 05:23:11 clos, records, all libraries. nice 05:23:12 I know that the in Scheme, evaluation order of arguments to a procedure is not specified. Why is that? 05:23:48 to permit optimization i'd assume 05:24:25 kercyr: 1) historical reasons, 2) to allow compiler optimizations, 3) because otherwise people would more often write code that depends on the order, which can be _very_ confusing 05:25:21 What sort of optimization are we talking about? 05:26:51 anywhere from mundane optimizations like register allocation techniques to computing each value in a separate parallel thread 05:27:01 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:30:09 interesting. Is there a more thorough explanation out there? 05:33:31 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:06 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.137.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:04 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 05:46:53 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:48:03 -!- Checkie [3852@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:49:05 Checkie [7076@cpe-174-101-5-46.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:08 -!- Checkie [7076@cpe-174-101-5-46.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:49:09 Checkie [7076@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 06:00:28 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:03:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:36 kercyr: most languages have the order of evaluation specified for stupid reasons (ie: that's how we wrote the compiler). 06:07:27 It means that if I write a better compiler with another order of evaluation, most of your code is likely to break. 06:08:03 Most of those languages, unlike Scheme, have no spec. 06:08:41 Scheme chose to let people write better implementations. It doesn't call for much more explanation. 06:10:09 Note the order of evaluation isn't specified in C/C++ either. 06:15:12 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:17:05 ASau [~user@77.246.231.96] has joined #scheme 06:27:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:34:40 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:44:29 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 06:52:51 Axioplase_, I'm not sure if that's better than not knowing what a syntactically correct program does. 06:54:14 kercyr: I'm not sure if it's good to have people not know what they write. 06:54:46 I can easily force left-to-right or right-to-left when I need to. 06:56:16 Plus, by having an evaluation order which is the one of the implementation, and *believing* it is the same everywhere, *will* make you write buggy code which you think is correct. 06:57:12 If the evaluation is specified to be one way or another, there is so such confusion, right? 06:57:30 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:57:52 no such confusion, rather. 06:58:12 That's the point: Scheme says "do not rely on the order for your code". Others say nothing, and somehow incite you to write code which will break when run on other implementations. 06:58:32 All you will never expect the bug to happen there, since "it's syntactically correct" 06:59:12 kercyr: the order is seldom specified, that's the thing! 07:00:09 Axioplase_.... If you say so. It seems like there's consensus on C/C++/Java/Scheme... 07:00:11 You *think* it is, and happily write code that relies on it until some implementer changes it. 07:01:51 kercyr: the consensus on those languages is _not_ to specify the order 07:01:56 (except maybe for java) 07:02:01 Java is specified. 07:02:28 c/c++/scheme are not 07:02:30 and C/C++/Scheme is not specified, but they're all explicitly specified one way or another. 07:02:42 lols 07:02:54 yeah. languages are funny. 07:03:15 not really, some schemes are right->left, some left->right, some change w/ compiler optimizations 07:03:43 Scheme says "do not rely on the order. Let the compiler decide for you what is better. After all, you're just a poor human. Harr! Harr! Harr!" 07:04:02 it doesn't even have to be consistent within one run. 07:04:24 Why *should* it be? 07:05:11 There could be some heuristic that makes the virtual machine decide to move a computation to another thread/core/computer when you re-run the code. 07:05:24 I was just stating the fact. Not arguing that it shouldn't be. 07:07:27 -!- rgrau_ [~user@208.64.70.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:32 so... is there a more thorough explanation of things one might do because the order isn't specified? (Say I'm making an interpreter for a Scheme-like language). 07:13:54 I can see how leveraging concurrency somehow is obviously useful. 07:15:43 kercyr: maybe the source code of "stalin" may be worthy reading. 07:17:55 wingo [~wingo@83.32.68.226] has joined #scheme 07:21:29 Axioplase_: The "another thread/core/computer" is irrelevant since the one thing that "Scheme" *does* specify is sequential evaluation. 07:21:35 kercyr: oh, also, better caching may happen, if you use a specific variable at every other position in a list which you process map. 07:22:01 eli: does it specify sequential? I don't remember that. 07:22:10 It does. 07:23:10 Here: "Note: Although the order of evaluation is otherwise unspecified, the effect of any concurrent evaluation of the operator and operand expressions is constrained to be consistent with some sequential order of evaluation. The order of evaluation may be chosen differently for each procedure call." 07:23:21 oh. 07:23:34 As for your "people not know what they write" -- that's also a very bogus argument. 07:24:09 map doesn't seem to apply sequentially though 07:24:36 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:38 + to have to 07:25:27 some sequential order of evaluation means some permutation, right? Not that it has to go left-right or right-left. 07:27:30 Right. 07:27:45 left? :-) 07:28:14 Correct. 07:28:58 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:09 hum, yeah. 07:29:11 so... it's not concurrency. 07:29:56 concurrency and call/cc are tricky. 07:30:38 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:31:42 No, it cannot be concurrent. It's a wimpy "neither here nor there", justified by mythical compiler optimizations, and has confused numerous people when they use implementations that do not guarantee left-to-right evaluation. 07:33:04 rbarraud [~rbarraud@124-197-5-216.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 07:33:17 It's really funny that the only time I've encountered a bug with evaluation order is in Scheme. 07:34:01 morning eli 07:34:33 So... these mythical compiler optimization. Are they really myth or is there some concrete examples? 07:35:22 wingo: Good morning, to some... 07:36:07 kercyr: What was the bug, and which implementation did you use? 07:37:57 The bug was is scheme code I was building on top of for a class project. I was using petite scheme on my home machine and my AI was telling me that my program was producing bad results. We traced it down to an evaluation order problem in code I didn't write. 07:38:57 kercyr: In this case you gave a concrete example making my point. 07:38:58 The reference implementation was Chez. I think it was difference in version. 07:48:10 hm, in "the effect of any concurrent evaluation of the operator and operand expressions is constrained to be consistent with some sequential order of evaluation.", does this disallow interleaved evaluation of sub-forms ? 07:50:31 iow, in `(((f) (g)) ((h) (i)))' : (a) could the evaluation order be `f',`g',`h',`i' ? -- (b) could the evaluation of (e.g.) `f' and `g' be interleaved ? 07:51:25 (i'm assuming the "no concurrency" constraint disallows (b), and not just actual parallel evaluation, but i'm not sure whether (a) is disallowed) 07:53:02 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 07:53:10 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:10 parallel evaluation might be okay as long as there are checks that they don't interfere with each other. The output just needs to be consistent with some order. 07:53:43 and (a) seems perfectly reasonable to me. 07:53:57 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 07:54:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.32.68.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:59:51 eli: good point, I keep forgetting that the evaluation must be sequential 08:01:05 if the compiler can prove the arguments are referentially transparent it could cheat and run them asynchronously, but then it could do that whatever the order was specified (or not) to be 08:03:37 foof: Yeah -- it could also specify a left-to-right evaluation, and use whatever freakish order happens to make things 20x faster when there's no dependency on the order... 08:04:03 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:05:48 but re-arranging the order based on just simple register allocation is an obviously useful optimization when you can't assume anything about referentially transparency 08:06:53 chibi just uses right->left consistently because it's simpler with the stack architecture, but i had an old set of sassy subroutine macros which would rearrange the evaluation order for precisely that purpose 08:07:15 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 08:07:32 IMO, the ensuing confusion is not worth the extra cycles. 08:09:00 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:09:17 personally I find not making order explicit in your code more confusing 08:09:57 to get a list of the next two chars in order a simple (list (read-char) (read-char)) works nicely 08:10:31 rgrau [~user@208.64.70.52] has joined #scheme 08:10:49 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:11:05 but as you add more mutation and deeper nested calls i think it becomes hard to read - it's much clearer to bind everything that depends on order up fron with a let* 08:13:04 masm [~masm@2.80.157.254] has joined #scheme 08:13:04 The bottom line is that we do read code left to right, and we have a strict language (hence no Haskel `where'), so left to right order would be the obvious way. 08:13:29 what's the order after macro expansion? 08:13:45 In any case, kercyr has made my point above very nicely. I've never seen anyone confused by expecting code to evaluate in some non left-to-right-order. 08:14:31 Obviously macros can change the order -- and that would be as surprising as a non ltr evaluation. 08:15:14 (I think that I once used this explicitly to make a language with a randomized order -- as a demo of how you can find those "bugs".) 08:15:42 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:16:44 what if the macro needs to change the order, e.g. you have a keyword-based DSL where some keywords depend on others, but you obviously don't want to require the user to write the keywords in some specific order? 08:23:15 I don't know if you mean keywords as in keyword arguments, or some random language where some expressions can depend on other expressions in a function call. 08:25:15 keyword arguments 08:26:53 So where's the problem? 08:36:03 ah, i see why you wanted clarification - with pure keyword arguments, you would always just bind all explicit expressions with a let* first, then process them 08:37:02 but you could have a DSL where given (foo 'bar: baz 'qux: quux) it's important that quux be processed before baz 08:37:32 possibly that means you have a badly designed DSL, though i wouldn't dismiss it out of hand 08:41:00 I'd go for either a DSL that is poorly designed, or one where it is in fact obvious that quux is evaluated first. 08:41:50 For example, in (run-test (= x y) before: (set! x blah) after: restore-x) the not l-t-r order is expected. 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error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:29 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-249-130.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 20:23:44 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 20:23:58 good evening everyone 20:24:15 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:15 good evening 20:25:40 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-12-42.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:09 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 20:29:45 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 20:33:54 -!- carbocalm [~user@204.101.159.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:36:11 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:31 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:10 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by 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Leaving.] 22:58:29 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-91-143.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:12 _danb_ [~user@124-170-209-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:00:30 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@207.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:02:52 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:11 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 23:03:32 tcoppi [~nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:12 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.157.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:24 luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has joined #scheme 23:11:57 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:55 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@225-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 23:20:21 oh yes. i think that plt's statistical profiler might've hit the mother lode 23:28:38 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-116.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:45 neilv: oh? 23:31:06 any relation to eli? 23:31:42 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:33 looks like 80% of a process that takes 4 seconds is spent in an alist-related accessor function, and i'm pretty sure i can make that function a lot faster, and i know i can reduce a lot of the calls to it 23:33:23 no relation to eli 23:33:43 i think his name is even pronounced similarly to elly, actually 23:36:08 I don't know :P but he and I are unrelated 23:39:02 eli is a short version for eliyahoo or whatever 23:45:35 eligoogle? elibing? 23:47:31 Elijah is a prophet found in most modern monotheistic religions. I guess "Eli" refers to him. 23:51:12 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.141] has joined #scheme 23:51:17 no, not elijah 23:51:31 eliyahou seems to be the american spelling 23:53:42 Eliyahou, Eliyahu, Elijah that's the same name! 23:54:04 Eliyanagonnaworkhereanymore 23:54:26 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:54:36 Just like Guillaume, Will, William, Wilhelm 23:54:50 office space 23:59:29 _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme