00:03:21 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:03:50 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 00:03:58 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 00:04:40 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:04 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:56 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.155.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:32 -!- Dark-Star|away [~michael@HSI-KBW-109-192-121-077.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:13:13 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:14:09 and bison? 00:14:28 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:15:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 00:18:05 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #scheme 00:19:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.199.193] has joined #scheme 00:25:06 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:25:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 00:35:53 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:36 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:46:45 -!- Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.19.244] has quit [] 00:49:59 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:50:56 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 00:53:36 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-222-8-202.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:59:25 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:01:18 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:06:24 mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-25-56.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:01 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:24:53 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 01:26:29 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:26:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 01:27:18 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 01:29:12 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 01:29:27 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:30:00 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:08 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:35:17 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 01:37:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:38:23 toast-prime [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:57 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:42:17 -!- toast-prime [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:00 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:18 did you guys see this? "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." 01:48:23 http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html 01:48:55 i thought wolfram was off his rocker with ANKS; but that shit takes the cake. 01:49:44 sure is convenient using an expensive proprietary language, all right 01:50:10 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:50:21 ... 01:50:44 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-101.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:50:52 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 01:50:53 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-114-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:51:18 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:54:17 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 02:00:48 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:01:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 02:02:13 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:23 arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-14-209-54.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:06:22 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:44 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:14 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:10:04 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 02:10:24 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 02:11:52 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:58 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:01 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:12:25 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:03 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-84.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:43 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-237-251.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:23:15 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-237-251.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:50 toast-prime [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:50 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:50 -!- toast-prime is now known as toast` 02:25:43 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-25-56.aby.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:28:24 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 02:29:54 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 02:30:45 arcfide: "The industrial concerns of safety" as an implication that it's not a concern in education is something that turns on all kinds of red lights in my head. 02:31:08 arcfide: But regardless, I can see exactly how this will crash. 02:37:23 mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-17-102.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:22 eli, It will probably crash big time, which is why I didn't make a Wiki proposal on it, but I figure that I had to try something, just to put it out there. 02:42:23 eli, Additionally, I did want to make the claim that this matters for education, but I had a certain class of pedagogy in mind when I made those distinctions, and industry was the word for lack of a better to distinguish the academic undergraduate classes from the "other" stuff. 02:42:27 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-12-42.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:45 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-17-102.aby.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:04 eli, I'm also not sure that the apparent opposition to immutable pairs is not just a rather vocal minority. 02:43:33 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #scheme 02:43:34 Most appear to have stayed pretty silent. The most consensus I can find is that we can't make them the default, but that's about it. 02:45:28 I still don't understand why the mutators can't simply be removed from the standard. Some implementations will continue to provide them, others will not, but at least this way it will be possible to create an implementation with only immutable pairs. 02:45:29 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:41 arcfide: re crashing: that makes sense, in some limited way. 02:46:12 As for certain class of pedagogy: that's the class that usually makes me tell people that they should demand a refund. 02:46:34 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 02:46:34 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 02:46:38 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:46:52 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 02:46:53 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:47:01 Having trouble, eli? 02:47:35 chandler, I for one don't want to do that, and that means that the only portable pairs are immutable pairs. That's also not desirable. 02:47:35 chandler: Yes. Every once in a while, my Emacs loses all of the irc keybindings, making the buffer mostly useless. 02:47:46 chandler, And I don't know of any Scheme that doesn't have mutable pairs. 02:47:51 arcfide: It isn't? 02:47:51 I couldn't figure out what causes it yet, but it drives me crazy. 02:48:27 Anyways, it's time for me to eat. 02:48:39 arcfide: I'd challange you for one good reason to keep mutable pairs. 02:48:42 But I won't. 02:48:53 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:48:55 arcfide: Other than Racket? Yes, there are "mutable pairs", but they're disjoint from ordinary pairs. 02:50:04 chandler, It still has a pair datatype that is mutable. 02:50:46 *arcfide* dives for food. 02:50:48 See you all later. 02:51:05 It has as many as you want, in fact. That's what `define-struct' is for. 02:51:36 *eli* smiles 02:51:39 Er, just `struct'. 02:52:25 (Sorry, too many dialects.) 02:52:44 eli: was it you that i was talking with the other day about doing OO in scheme? 02:53:26 if so, i must say you're totally right. it's going far better than i thought it would 02:53:38 toast`: I don't think so, but that doesn't mean much -- my memory for IRC mumbles goes back about 15 minutes. 02:53:57 gets garbage collected? 02:54:04 *toast`* 02:54:04 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:43 toast`: No, just gets shoved over... But there's always the logs. 02:54:59 toast`: ... and it looks like you had this conversation with arcfide. 02:55:19 then arcfide was right 02:55:39 rudybot: give arcfide a cookie 02:55:42 eli: your sandbox is ready 02:55:42 eli: error: reference to undefined identifier: a 02:56:04 rudybot: give arcfide "a cookie from toast`" 02:56:04 arcfide: eli has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 02:56:07 ha. 'arcfide' =is= defined? 02:56:11 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:19 ah, its a macro 02:56:20 toast`: No, not really. 02:56:23 toast`: the "give" command is used to pass values between users' sandboxes. 02:56:33 rudybot: give toast` 'something 02:56:34 toast`: eli has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" 02:56:35 rudybot: give toast` 'a-value 02:56:36 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:56:36 toast`: chandler has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" 02:56:42 Drat. 02:56:47 mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-22-197.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:13 rudybot: eval (let ((x (GRAB))) (list x x)) 02:57:13 toast`: ; Value: (a-value a-value) 02:57:20 And as long as mutation is on the table, 02:57:31 rudybot: eval (define b (box 0)) 02:57:46 rudybot: eval (define (inc-b) (set-box! b (add1 (unbox b)))) 02:57:55 rudybot: give toast` inc-b 02:57:55 toast`: eli has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" 02:58:07 toast`: And now you can ((GRAB)) it 02:58:21 rudybot: eval (let ((x (grab)) (y (grab))) (list x y)) 02:58:22 toast`: error: reference to undefined identifier: grab 02:58:36 It's case-sensitive. 02:58:37 member:rudybot: eval (let ((x (GRAB)) (y (GRAB))) (list x y)) 02:58:43 doh 02:58:46 rudybox: eval (let ((x (GRAB)) (y (GRAB))) (list x y)) 02:59:01 doh, forgot to apply, and typo'd again 02:59:24 rudybot: eval (let ((x ((GRAB))) (y ((GRAB)))) (list x y)) 02:59:24 toast`: ; Value: (# #) 02:59:35 rudybot: eval b 02:59:36 eli: ; Value: #&2 02:59:37 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 02:59:40 There. 02:59:44 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 02:59:45 fun 02:59:54 so you can communicate across sandboxes :) 03:00:01 Yes. 03:00:09 It's even more fun with continuations. 03:00:13 heh 03:00:15 i imagine 03:00:24 rudybot is running Racket i assume? 03:00:35 rudybot: eval (banner) 03:00:36 eli: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.2.5 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2010 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 03:00:43 An old version of it... 03:00:58 2010, so not =that= old 03:01:09 Months! 03:01:19 It has a different name -- it's ancient! 03:02:19 rudybot: eval (eval '(+ 1 1)) 03:02:20 toast`: ; Value: 2 03:02:51 rudybot: eval (define (sq x) (* x x)) 03:02:59 rudybot: eval (sq 2 2) 03:03:00 toast`: error: procedure sq: expects 1 argument, given 2: 2 2 03:03:15 *toast`* brainfried, apparently 03:03:39 member:rudybot: eval (define (share-alike form) (eval form)) 03:03:47 rudybot: eval (define (share-alike form) (eval form)) 03:04:00 rudybot: eval (share-alike '(sq 2)) 03:04:00 toast`: ; Value: 4 03:04:18 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:04:22 rudybot: give eli share-alike 03:04:22 eli: toast` has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 03:04:38 here, have my sandbox 03:05:02 toast`: No, that won't work... 03:05:12 ha, really? 03:05:13 rudybot: eval ((GRAB) 'sq) 03:05:13 eli: error: reference to undefined identifier: sq 03:05:19 rudybot: eval ((GRAB) 'b) 03:05:19 rudybot: give toast` (let* ([k #f] [v (call/cc (lambda (k^) (set! k k^) 0))]) (printf "A value: ~a~%" v) k) 03:05:20 eli: ; Value: #&2 03:05:21 toast`: chandler has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" 03:05:21 chandler: ; stdout: "A value: 0\n" 03:05:41 toast`: Try ((GRAB) 1) . 03:05:53 toast`: The implicit value to `eval' is the current namespace, which in my case is from my own sandbox. 03:05:56 rudybot: eval ((GRAB) 1) 03:05:57 -!- rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:05 cruel 03:06:08 That was fun. 03:06:10 I wasn't expecting that. 03:06:18 offby1: halp! 03:06:20 you made me kill it :'( 03:06:25 i don't like killing things 03:06:56 eli: yes, but i'd expect that implicit to be captured lexically 03:06:58 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:07:04 not dynamically 03:07:16 i thought dynamic variables were for common-lisp, not scheme 03:07:42 is there an explicit form? 03:08:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:08:13 Yes, there is a way to get an anchor to the current namespace. 03:08:28 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:08:38 chandler: Whatever it was, I can't reproduce any crash. (And I don't think that rudybot is doing something special there...) 03:08:52 toast`: You'd need to do something like this: 03:09:14 (let ([ns (current-namespace)]) (lambda (expr) (eval expr ns))) 03:09:45 Or just skip the eval and use (current-namespace), which I could then use as (eval 'whatever (GRAB)). 03:09:49 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 03:10:08 rudybot: eval (define share-alike (let ((ns (current-namespace))) (lambda (form) (eval form ns)))) 03:10:15 toast`: It's still gone. 03:10:20 It's dead, Jim. 03:10:26 oh, doh. i thought i saw it came back 03:10:37 eli: I've no idea what caused that. As I said, I wasn't expecting it to crash. 03:10:50 Yes, it definitely shouldn't have. 03:13:01 Oh, I wonder if it's the continuation of the `give' command that caused the problem here. 03:13:04 yeah -- i try not to be too clever with continuations. the 2x rule. As in, any program requires 2x the cleverness to debug than it takes to write. And presently it still takes about 90% of my cleverness to code with continuation capture 03:13:13 heh, nice 03:13:37 yeah, you'll want to restore the original continuation first, me thinks 03:13:44 before returning, i mean 03:14:19 oh, it's racket right? use delimited continuations. 03:15:25 chandler: Possibly. 03:15:32 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:10 eli: I might be missing something obvious, but why isn't `default-continuation-prompt-tag' a parameter? 03:19:45 Oh, I suppose it's not really necessary, is it? 03:20:26 There's several `default-...' which are just values, sometimes used as the default value of some `current-...' parameter. 03:27:09 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.169.143] has joined #scheme 03:27:22 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-22-197.aby.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:30:36 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.169.143] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:40 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:32:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:32:36 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.156.93.0] has joined #scheme 03:34:37 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:38:52 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.156.93.0] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 03:40:40 mbishop [~martin@adsl-150-28-237.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:49 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:42:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:43:28 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:44:01 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:44:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:04 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@64.134.238.75] has joined #scheme 03:50:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-72.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:51:58 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:11 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:52:15 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-64-20.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:28 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@208-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 04:01:38 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:02:07 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:02:20 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:03:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 04:03:26 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:11:06 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.10.92] has joined #scheme 04:11:10 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:12:43 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:14:40 -!- Checkie [19339@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:14:48 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@64.134.238.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16:31 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.10.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:23:11 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.27.239] has joined #scheme 04:23:42 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-112-234.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:25:19 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-72.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:09 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:32:15 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 04:33:03 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:33:57 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:36:36 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:44:52 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:49:01 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:23 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-112-234.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:51:37 twb [~twb@nat064.cyber.com.au] has joined #scheme 04:54:07 Can I write a (FOO x . xs) => (FOO-x . xs) macro using syntax-rules (i.e. deriving a new symbol FOO-x from an existing symbol x)? 04:54:30 My memory says: "no, you can't," but it's pretty flaky. 04:54:34 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-117-251.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:48 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:55:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:55:53 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:53 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 05:03:44 twb: what would be the point? 05:04:14 even if you could, it's hiegenic -- FOO-x can't possibly refer to anything, right? 05:04:53 -- nor referred to externally either. 05:04:57 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:05:06 The use case is a shorthand kludge (with (x . xs) . ys) ==> (with-x (with xs . ys)) 05:05:11 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 05:07:31 ok, but this newly minted 'with-x' syntax object is not bound 05:07:44 That's what I figured. 05:08:17 i'm guessing you want it to resolve to some top level 'with-x' macro? 05:08:23 Yeah. 05:08:50 yeah, that's not hiegenic i don't think 05:08:56 Rather, all my with-x's are procedures that take thunks. 05:08:57 but don't trust me, i'm a noob 05:09:23 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.199.193] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:42 i think you'd need to use syntax-case and manually create the syntax object, so you can specify the scope you want it to be resolved in 05:09:44 I'm sick of having twelve lines in a row of (with-x (lambda () (with-y (lambda () (with-z (lambda () ...)))))) and the actual body ending up indented to column 40 05:10:18 Yeah, or just hard-code the with-x's it can match 05:10:25 twb: using pretty lambdas helps with that problem 05:10:34 saccade: I'm using them, it doesn't help much 05:10:40 pretty lambdas? 05:10:47 toast`: rendering lambda as  05:10:51 heh 05:12:14 twb: but, no, syntax-rules doesn't do that 05:13:32 Actually, I'm being retarded. 05:13:40 ... you're thinking of common-lisp. :-) 05:13:43 Since everything is a procedure, I can just write another procedure. 05:14:17 toast`: well, I know how to do it in defmacro, I just couldn't remember if it made sense in a hygienic definition 05:14:43 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:15:16 (define (chain . everything) (foldr apply identity everything))? 05:15:36 (chain with-x with-y with-z (lambda () ...)) 05:16:02 Yeah, basically. 05:16:10 sorry, i'm not awake enough to determine if what i just said makes sense 05:16:21 Even if it didn't, I know what you're trying to say. 05:16:46 Although I'd have written it in a stupidly longhand fashion 05:16:57 you apparently have a dwim macro installed on your IRC client 05:17:18 Hm? 05:17:33 do-what-i-mean 05:17:47 Yes, but I don't know why you think I'd have such a thing in IRC 05:18:17 so you could properly read incorrect code as though it were correct 05:18:33 i say something dumb, but it looks smart on your end :) 05:18:55 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:19:02 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:19:02 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 05:21:59 Which was, of course, why I made sure to define my stuff as procedures in the first place 05:22:15 Since I'm dealing with olin's RUN macro, which is a bitch to extend because it IS a macro. 05:22:33 you can't extend scheme macros? 05:22:51 hmm, i guess with syntax-rules you can't. hadn't thought about that 05:23:05 Not in the particular way I wanted 05:23:18 I haven't looked at that code for four years, so I only remember it was a pain, not WHY 05:23:23 *toast`* thinks of setf as the canonical extensible macro 05:23:42 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:53 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-117-251.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 05:24:21 Hmph, I've only seen it "extended" via CLOS 05:24:45 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 05:25:15 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:27:09 toast` pasted "sorry-for-the-cl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111556 05:27:29 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 05:27:44 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:27:58 twb: no clos necessary. see paste 05:31:03 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:31:32 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181176076.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:34:27 mmc [~michal@cs181176076.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:35:32 chandler, Both immutable pairs and mutable pairs can be created with records. That's sort of beside the point. :-) 05:35:55 twb, Um, so, what is Olin's RUN macro? 05:37:30 arcfide: it's the basic SCSH shell syntax 05:37:46 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:47 it's a really stupid thing to make syntax 05:37:49 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:37:49 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 05:37:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 05:38:44 I'm not familiar with the SCSH shell syntax. 05:38:46 i consider it one of the canonical examples of an API becoming more difficult to use because of gratuitious use of macros to shave off a single ` 05:38:49 I don't suppose anybody has tried the new module for s48 that is intended to be scsh on a modern s48? 05:39:11 arcfide: scsh is basically s48 + SREs + the RUN 05:39:14 ...macro 05:39:17 that and SSAX, and all the R6RS enum nonsense 05:39:45 tbw: the run macro is implied? eg, i type "a b c" and it's read as "(run a b c)"? 05:39:49 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 05:39:52 foof: it's fucking stupid BECAUSE it removes QUASIQUOTE while encouraging users to write the matching UNQUOTEs in their own code. 05:40:00 toast`: no. 05:40:26 e.g. (run (echo hello "world")) is approximately execvp on ["echo","hello","world"] 05:40:35 gotcha 05:40:46 twb: agreed. and what's more, the locations you're allowed to use UNQUOTE aren't clearly specified (the manual mentions just a handful of places, suggesting others won't work) 05:46:24 toast`, I'm glad records are working out for you. 05:46:49 arcfide: yeah, esp in respect to the recent discussion :) 05:48:39 actually, for a fraction of a moment, i was contemplating: (define (make-foo arg1 arg2) (lambda (thunk) (thunk arg1 arg2 foo-frobber))) (define (frob a-foo) (a-foo (lambda (x y frobber) (frobber a-foo)))) 05:56:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 06:01:34 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:05 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:06:07 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:06:07 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 06:06:11 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 06:06:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:06:44 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:06:49 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Client Quit] 06:06:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 06:09:16 foof: I think there's an idiom for this that I'm forgetting -- http://codepad.org/Sldq368j 06:09:43 the map lambda apply pattern 06:16:20 it doesn't have a name i'm aware of 06:16:42 you can use unzip2 to pull out the values into two lists, and then map them w/o apply 06:19:12 OK, puzzle time: you allocate and return a heap object, but in between the return and location where it is returned to, the data in the object is corrupted 06:19:21 the object does not overlap with the stack 06:19:44 how does this happen? 06:20:57 (straight C, nothing like C++ finalizers apply) 06:21:44 I don't suppose bizarre stuff like (set)jmp could do that? 06:22:06 perhaps it could, not using it though :/ 06:22:21 Or a proc you're calling that isn't reentrant 06:22:47 no threads 06:22:49 Or, obviously, something running past the end of a null-terminated byte vector that somehow stops being null-terminated 06:23:23 Have you examined that data post-corruption? 06:24:28 no actual code is being called - i'm stepping through with gdb, i get to "return res;", verify the data is OK, type "n" to get back to the calling function and the data is corrupted 06:26:37 ohhhhhh... 06:26:45 *foof* smacks forehead 06:27:29 Well, go on, explain it 06:27:44 the library and the program linked to the library were using different debug settings, with different struct fields 06:27:50 foof: ugh, I could swear that riastradh upbraided me for not using something that did that 06:28:38 foof: that's tragic 06:28:59 and a classic example of why I don't want to have a computer 06:29:05 I hate computers 06:30:15 ASau [~user@77.246.231.74] has joined #scheme 06:31:09 up until now the debug settings didn't make a difference, but i recently added a setting with an optional field :/ 06:31:53 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-12-42.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:32:13 specifically a "magic" field optionally added to every heap object, ironically put there to detect heap corruption 06:32:40 foof: it seems like having that setting be consistent across platforms / environments must be more important than being able to customize it 06:33:54 (unlike most things that are made uncustomizable due to superficially similar justifications) 06:34:00 saccade: except i really can't afford to leave that setting in for production use, the extra space per object is too much 06:34:16 foof: really? 06:34:32 but hard drives are so cheap 06:35:49 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:35:58 this is RAM 06:36:31 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 06:36:49 objects live in memory 06:37:10 You could say "but RAM is so cheap", but then you'd be a Java developer. 06:37:26 or a cloud developer 06:37:28 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-247-84.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:43 "What do you mean, some people have less than 8GB and quad-core xeons in their dev laptops?" 06:40:42 foof: would the debug data still be floating around in the production build? 06:42:09 no 06:43:25 foof: check the generated assembler and try to see if this happens without compiler optimisations too 06:48:03 it will definitely happen no matter what, foo.bar was a different offset in the library vs. the executable 06:48:31 saccade: what's a cloud developer? 06:49:39 Presumably, someone who targets "the cloud" instead of hosts. 06:49:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing 06:51:37 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.27.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:52:01 Castles in the sky. 06:54:04 lol: Larry Ellison, CEO of Oracle Corporation has stated that cloud computing has been defined as "everything that we already do" 06:56:03 so is ZFS a cloud-computing technology? 06:56:07 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 07:01:04 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:03:24 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:54 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:06:45 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:07:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 07:08:25 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:08:33 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 07:09:09 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:12:46 adu: no. 07:13:07 exxxd34 [~aseas65xa@p1184-ipbfp205fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:13:07 -!- exxxd34 [~aseas65xa@p1184-ipbfp205fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:59 Cloud computing is where you package your application into an image that can run concurrently on an arbitrary number of hosts, doesn't require local non-volatile state, and expects to be started/stopped frequently and rapidly. 07:14:32 The cloud infrastructure then decides what host(s) to run the application "on demand". 07:15:08 nqq [~aseas65xa@p1184-ipbfp205fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:15:31 A typical example would be a web app where the code, PHP and apache are in the image, and state lives in an RDBMS provisioned outside the cloud. 07:16:13 The cloud infrastructure can say "hmm, looks like there's another 10,000 users in New Zealand today" and activate an additional instance in the cloud's .nz colo. 07:16:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:17:04 hi twb :) 07:17:49 -!- nqq [~aseas65xa@p1184-ipbfp205fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:22:13 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:24:52 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 07:25:32 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:27:03 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:27:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has 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265 seconds] 13:16:44 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:26:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:26:51 xwl [~user@123.115.110.152] has joined #scheme 13:26:53 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:28:27 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:02 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:37:50 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:40:37 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable224.15-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:40:53 i need help understanding gensym 13:40:55 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:41:14 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:45:18 someone could explain me when its necessary to use gensym? 13:47:26 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:47:52 alright seems everyones sleeping 13:48:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:49:06 teurastaja: without gensym you risk shadowing some variable at macroexpansion, which may lead to undesired behavior. 13:49:29 -!- Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.97.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:08 yes i got that i just dont understand when i should use it 13:51:04 always... or just use hygienic macro system. 13:51:13 luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has joined #scheme 13:51:57 what do you mean by always? 13:52:41 when am i supposed to know that somewhere an expansion can shadow a symbol? 13:53:53 you never know... 13:54:29 that's the nature of living in non-manadic world. 13:54:58 manadic? you mean monadic? 13:55:04 teurastaja: http://community.schemewiki.org/?hygiene-versus-gensym 13:56:01 yes. maniacic. 13:57:22 i know of define-syntax i know its better because you dont have to worry about overshadowing but i still want to understand it. i like scheme because it can be described in simpler terms 13:57:24 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:59:57 teurastaja: syntax-rules... to be precise. 14:02:18 i guess gensym is usually implemented by generating a legal random string, comparing it against the symbol table then choosing if its good whether its exists but even if i already know im gonna use hygienic macros i just want to know to understand how things really expand and why its necessary 14:02:46 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:35 what does common lisp have? 14:04:28 don't know exactly. defmacro is unhygienic as far as i know. and i never heard of hygienic macro system for CL. 14:04:44 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #scheme 14:09:22 i have a simpler solution for a swap using just math 14:10:25 Glendaal [Glendaal@62.32.130.224] has joined #scheme 14:12:05 a = a + b; b = a - b; a = a - b 14:12:55 very efficient in assembly 14:13:10 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:13:20 teurastaja: that's not the problem... it's the meaning of symbols that's at stake. what if 'a' in your macro resolves to 'a' in surrounding environment that is bound to "2"? 14:14:34 or "two"... even if you account for operator overloading insanity. 14:15:02 i cant picture your example 14:17:34 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 14:18:12 could you write a code for your example? 14:18:22 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19:04 i'd think you have the code motivating hugiene in front of you since swap is canonical example. 14:19:18 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:19:46 you were referring to this? 14:23:07 well, ok. in your case without introducing new names or not using external names it may work. but it's not good to rely on special cases. 14:23:58 it's rather rare that you can stay within "constant" space of names. 14:24:53 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.110.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:27 youre talking about my mathematical solution? 14:26:33 no, i'm talking about not using temporary variable. 14:26:44 ok 14:27:31 how can syntax-rules manage to remain hygienic at all times? 14:28:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:28:07 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:28 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:30:36 by managing names internally and automatically... most probably using some form of gensym, of course. it's the same difference as using C++ or implementing your own OO system in C. 14:31:48 but much simpler 14:32:40 for some value of "but", "much" and "simpler" ;) 14:32:43 xwl [~user@123.115.110.152] has joined #scheme 14:33:39 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:44 incubot: give me wisdom, give me fame, give me peace! 14:33:44 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@208-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:33:49 Hey, forcer, if you write a browser abstraction for Emacs, you'll win the fame and fortune of having aided and abetted in the construction of a SLIME profiler! 14:34:24 fail! 14:35:55 incubot: fail! 14:35:59 i fail to see the need for simplification in a practical application, but as i said, maybe i am missing a key fact 14:37:13 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:38:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:39:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:41:07 "but" is defined as an exception of your example. "simpler" is not quantitatively defined but we both know implementing a c++ object system in c is harder than implementing define-syntax since c is usually considered harder and were talking of a whole system with memory management and everything. defining syntax-rules is obviously not as hard as implementing c++. "much" is just a euphemism here 14:47:16 tilt 14:53:38 tilt? 14:56:11 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-155-213.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:58:58 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:37 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:00:27 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:03 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 15:01:50 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:02:04 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:06 teurastaja: don't mind me, just teasing. 15:09:07 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:09:20 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:10:41 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-47-221.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:53 defining but simpler and much was amusing 15:11:05 though i didnt define anything 15:11:12 except but 15:17:58 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:18:13 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 15:20:14 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable224.15-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:36 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.231.74] has quit [Quit: off] 15:32:35 TR2N [email@89.180.202.171] has joined #scheme 15:32:56 alvatar [~alvatar@207.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:40:06 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 15:42:02 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:44:16 *offby1* bursts in 15:44:22 all right, everyone freeze. Who done it? 15:44:57 *gnomon* points at jcowan 15:47:06 snitch! 15:48:46 Where!? 15:48:49 *gnomon* attempts to catch it 15:49:29 too much harry potter 15:50:13 That one went *woosh* over my head 15:51:00 snitches are good stewed with onions and garlic 15:51:30 rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has joined #scheme 15:51:31 eli: rudybot died from a genuine SEGV. I'll see if I can repro it and file a proper bug report 15:52:07 Poor rudy 15:52:52 sjamaan, don't be too sorry for him. There are 1up mushrooms all over the place these days. 15:52:54 cut down in his prime, etc 15:55:35 BW^- [~Miranda@92.83.187.173] has joined #scheme 15:55:36 guys, what s-expression manipulation libraries do you know of? 15:55:36 BW^-, memo from eli: MzScheme uses Lightning for jitting; that's not the macro API, and while `thread' creates a green thread there are "futures" and "places" which are two different approaches at using OS threads. 15:55:59 basically i want a library using which i can arbitrarily manipulate an s-expression's contents, while its comments and line info etc. are maintained 15:56:49 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:57:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:24 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:04:15 Good question, BW^- 16:04:35 I've never seen a library for doing that, but have often wondered about it 16:05:08 for sure there are libraries that do it 16:05:17 scheme editors do it somehow.. i suppose 16:05:34 What you want is what's known as a "syntax object", which in principle attaches line number information and the like to s-exprs, but I'm not sure if any of them actually do so 16:05:54 BW^-, your best bet there might actually be to look up some elisp code which does that and then port it to Scheme. 16:05:58 I've never heard of them attempting to preserve comments, though 16:06:11 It's a really interesting problem, in any case. 16:06:14 :) 16:06:20 gnomon: interesting-right 16:06:38 Really, it'd boil down to explicitly representing whitespace in s-expressions (including comments) 16:06:42 alaricsp: basically i want the lib's mutation to the s-expression STRING representation to be minimal 16:06:44 Even when it's in the middle of a dotted pair etc. 16:06:53 Yes 16:06:56 and newlines and tabs yes 16:07:11 hmm.. that makes it easier, on the other hand. :) 16:07:12 Perhaps the best you could do is some kind of SAX-like parser interface 16:07:28 making a reader that preserves all of this stuff in this way is easy 16:07:40 That says "Here's some whitespace! Now there's a comment! Now there's a (! Now there's a symbol, 'foo'! Now there's a string ..." 16:07:52 though, i want it to have some small parenthesis matching mechanism in it also 16:08:02 not allowing to read a broken s-exp, and not allowing the caller to produce a broken s-exp 16:08:05 ...where whitespace includes the actual whitespace strings 16:08:13 right 16:08:18 there should be some convention for this already i think 16:08:20 The ) objects in the stream could have a reference back to the matching ( object 16:08:33 Look at how SAX parsers work in the XML world 16:09:59 Make it a stream-like object that produces a sequence of 'parser tokens', which are whitespace, comment, (, symbol, number, ... 16:10:04 schmir [~schmir@p548DBB06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:01 Each parser token has a string that's its contents, plus some metadata: line/column number on which its first character lies, a list of all the in-scope ( objects preceding it, (a close-paren event would have the matching open paren as the head of that list), etc. 16:11:33 hmhm 16:11:39 strings may be multi-line 16:11:53 this is a kind of standard problem that someone should make a solution to really 16:12:05 a library that's very easy to port among schemes 16:12:19 Yep. Is that a problem? They'd still have a start line/column, and the next event may have a starting line number that's lots bigger :-) 16:12:39 mm 16:12:55 Starting and ending line and column for events would be nice, actually, for multiline strings 16:12:55 BW^-: you want to do code transformations keeping the indentation, comments...? 16:13:02 or what exactly? 16:14:27 Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this just a reader? 16:14:29 alvatar: yes 16:15:11 metasyntax`: yes but it keeps line info in detail and comments, plus mutation routines that keep them in shape as much as possible, and a writer 16:15:32 ugly-printer 16:15:36 i just wanted to check with you for if you knew any library. for today this is all the answer i looked for 16:15:41 sladegen: What's that? 16:15:48 BW^-: a joke. 16:16:03 aha 16:16:22 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 16:16:49 BW^-: I think is far from perfect, but the closest thing I know of is what say alaricsp: sxml 16:17:08 you can select parts, tag them... 16:17:19 maybe it helps, just maybe 16:17:35 mm yes 16:18:13 the only reason i don't want to get into having this info (it's about langstrings actually) in SXML, is that i want the ability to keep s-expressions in it to eval them... 16:18:16 besides, how is gambit doing the code transformations? I believe it does it in scheme 16:18:26 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:41 lambda lifting and other optimizations 16:18:46 yes it does 16:18:58 i'll have the langstrings as an sexp. 16:19:30 but I agree that a library focused on this problem is truly interesting for a language like scheme 16:20:25 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-143-45.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:20:41 BW^-: I haven't written an implementation of Scheme but it seems to me that nearly all readers already track line numbers for debugging purposes. If they produce an intermediate data structure as a result then you simply modify the reader to add comments to that structure rather than discarding them. 16:20:55 plt's and chicken's package repos don't have anything like this 16:21:08 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:21:09 metasyntax`: yup 16:22:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:22:19 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:23:26 The real Holy Grail is to have the results of macro transformations retain line number information and comments, so the intermediate results can be displayed nicely and error backtraces (or other printed representations of continuations) can refer to correct file names and line numbers 16:23:39 yes. i don't need this for this thing. 16:23:44 thanks guys! 16:23:48 IJP [~Ian@host86-184-177-5.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:23:50 Have fun! 16:24:24 -!- schmir [~schmir@p548DBB06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:36 BTW, Gambit's reader implementation (or at least most of it) is here: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/repo/.cgit.cgi/Gambit/tree/lib/_io.scm 16:29:58 carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:31:29 A 'decent' reader/writer - that support cyclic objects and reading syntax objects with line number annotations etc - is really quite a complex task, I guess 16:31:47 -!- carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:56 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:36:09 alaricsp: as for me, i need acyclic sexps only.. no syntax or anything 16:43:37 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5B2A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:44:33 carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:44:37 alaricsp, that behavior is already available in many macro systems 16:45:38 -!- carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:54 Yeah, I know, I'd just always imagined that (read) and (write) were simple, but on thinking about it, they can't really be simple, as as you say, many macro systems do that already 16:46:09 carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:13 -!- carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:24 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@92.83.187.173] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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has joined #scheme 19:34:08 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:37:04 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:06 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 19:58:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:59:02 saccade_, what was it that I upbraided you about? 20:04:29 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:25 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:21 I don't remember, it was like 100 years ago 20:18:29 I thought it was maybe something like this: http://codepad.org/Sldq368j 20:18:55 the map lamba apply pattern 20:19:18 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:30:12 what about (map (curry apply pair) 20:30:25 :p the map curry apply pattern woo 20:34:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-149.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:39 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.157.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:17 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #scheme 21:00:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:06:47 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 21:20:58 schmir [~schmir@p548DAF67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:09 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 21:47:56 ws_ [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 21:50:50 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:52:07 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-48.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-32-203.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:16 -!- myu2 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