00:00:07 -!- mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-111-210.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:44 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 00:03:02 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-114-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:03:52 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@63.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:04:43 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-147-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:12 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 00:10:06 arcfide: Only `let*' allows duplicate identifiers, and I'm not sure what you'd expect in `letwreck' to correspond to this. 00:10:29 arcfide: That is, `letrec' and `let*' semantics contradict, and the specification of `letwreck' given doesn't provide enough information to allow the two to be distinguished 00:11:09 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:12:16 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 00:13:26 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 00:13:39 arcfide: Regarding the difficulty of working with `syntax-case' specifically (not including situations where hygiene requires extra head-scratching), I have two general problems with it. One is that I immensely dislike how syntax bindings are different kinds of animals than regular bindings. The other is that dealing with wraps becomes obnoxious after a while, especially since there's no built-in library of forms for dealing with them. 00:14:08 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 00:16:12 mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-111-60.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:16 arcfide: The guard form is kind of ridiculous. I'd much rather just be able to raise a condition, so that I can write something like (let ((foo (do-something-here))) (if foo (raise ))). 00:19:33 arcfide: ((... ...) (... ...)) is the height of absurdity. 00:19:44 (I guess that last one applies to `syntax-rules' too.) 00:19:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:20:24 chandler, Going in reverse, why not use (... (... ...))? 00:20:36 I don't understand that. 00:20:46 Oh, does that work? It's still absurd. 00:20:47 chandler, You can still raise conditions you know, using SYNTAX-VIOLATION. 00:20:54 saint_cypher_ [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:59 `syntax-violation' is not the same thing as a guard that returns #f. 00:21:28 I'm not sure what you mean by syntax bindings being different than normal ones. Are you talking about the need to use DEFINE-SYNTAX instead of DEFINE to define macros? 00:21:36 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:21:56 No; I'm talking about how (with-syntax ((foo ...)) foo) -> error . 00:22:11 chandler, No, but you don't have to use the guards, and you can just raise conditions. I do that often whenever I want to have very specific error messages for certain cases. 00:22:25 Guards are not just for error cases! 00:22:55 chandler, Say wha...? How would you want to do this? How would you distinguish code you wish to evaluate right now from stuff you wish to not evaluate until run time? 00:23:15 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:37 chandler, Of course not, but you just mentioned the erro case use there, I think. 00:23:52 I did? 00:24:00 There rather useful for other things of course, but what other mechanism do you have for things besides guards? 00:24:10 chandler, Yeah, raising conditions, in your example above? 00:24:23 Conditions are not always errors. 00:24:46 chandler, What use case do you have in mind then? 00:25:09 arcfide: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111513 - look at the call to `find-it'. 00:25:19 Or rather, look at both calls. 00:26:37 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B269409.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:47 arcfide: Regarding (with-syntax ((foo #'bar)) foo), what would be the harm if that returned (the syntax object that results from evaluating) #'bar? 00:29:49 I cannot understand that macro. 00:30:38 Well, it's definitely doing things the hard way. 00:31:15 Anyway, `find-it' is used to look up a generated identifier given an input identifier from an association list. 00:31:36 Actually, in this case, a syntax-violation would suffice. 00:37:59 -!- saint_cypher_ [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:50:12 -!- Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.87.92] has quit [] 00:50:45 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-67-85.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:53:40 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.239.22] has joined #scheme 01:00:51 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:01:12 arcfide annotated #111515 "My Version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111515#1 01:01:51 chandler, I generally prefer a macro style something more like the above than the style you presented in your first approach. I avoiding the unnecessary implementation specifics, though, and went with your easier approach for the actual expansion. 01:03:17 Yikes. Inner define? 01:03:23 That %let-wreck helper wouldn't be there except for the need for a macro to generate the end result. 01:04:07 chandler, It's a lot easier to read than having letrecs and the like splintered throughought, creating all sorts of strange code shapes. 01:04:33 chandler, If the code were doing something really important and I didn't want to hide it away inside of the top level macro form, I would use a META DEFINE outside of it. 01:04:48 That with a combination of ChezWEB generally makes things pretty easy to read for me. 01:14:44 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:17:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:54 -!- ws [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: BitchX: born to raise hell] 01:37:14 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-50-229-43.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:02 -!- charlie3 [~rustyshac@adsl-75-54-182-68.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe] 01:43:46 ventonegro [~alex@c934541a.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 01:44:23 yay, linode boosted their memory! \o/ 01:44:53 Provided you're willing to reboot, that is :-) 01:45:01 time to downgrade 01:45:52 since i'm not actually running anything yet the reboot is no problem :) 01:45:58 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@58.171.239.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51:57 arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-14-209-54.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:51 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:00:01 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 02:13:42 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.188.121] has joined #scheme 02:17:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:23:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-217.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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joined #scheme 03:49:52 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.198.4] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 03:50:26 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:52:37 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:12 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:01:18 -!- mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-111-60.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:38 slilo [~user@host-92-124-165-160.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #scheme 04:03:52 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:22 hi guys. someone of you is a bot :) who is? 04:05:19 im a bot 04:05:48 hmm 04:06:38 No, I am a bot! 04:07:25 prove it! 04:07:26 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 04:07:53 If I were not a bot, could I do this? 04:08:06 only if you are written in scheme :) 04:08:30 That just blew my brain 04:09:38 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[~alvatar@213.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:29:45 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-42-108.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:33 started reading lisp in small pieces 14:42:50 looks interesting so far 14:45:41 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.169.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:55 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 14:46:16 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:26 xwl [~user@125.34.169.205] has joined #scheme 14:48:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:52:28 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-155-213.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:55:23 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-42-108.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:31 alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:04:10 -!- merimus [~makin@office.vivisimo.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:07:42 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.58] has quit [Quit: off] 15:12:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslff075.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:57 karme [~user@188.40.75.180] has joined #scheme 15:24:09 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 15:25:25 I bought that book, tried reading it once, then sold it :-| 15:25:48 it has been a nice read for me 15:27:38 I should have sold my copy to you :) 15:28:41 yes! 15:28:54 may I ask which book are you talking about, please? 15:29:03 Lisp im small pieces 15:29:08 I knew it! 15:29:10 s,m,n,g 15:29:17 it's 200.000 bucks 15:29:23 I want it also 15:29:31 it is?! 15:29:41 where on this planet? 15:29:42 250 euros 15:29:53 amazin 15:30:01 I bought mine for ~56 EUR from amazon 15:30:17 it is a reprint but ok 15:32:05 it is 84 EUR for the hardcover 15:34:31 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:36:20 *jcowan* unvanishes, or as we also say, appears. 15:41:15 -!- karme [~user@188.40.75.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:44:05 or, as we say, mumble 15:44:12 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:44:31 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:44:59 jcowan, I think this is very wrong: 15:45:02 " 15:45:02 If the macro system is syntax-rules (and nobody that I know of is proposing 15:45:02 anything else for WG1), then you get Turing-complete execution only by 15:45:02 stretching macros to and beyond what is reasonable or intelligible." 15:45:31 As always, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. 15:45:51 syntax-rules is a term-rewriting system, and thus some things are awkward, but there's no particular trick to the fact that it's turning complete 15:46:11 i feel like you're confusing oleg-style trickery with the general power of term rewriting 15:46:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:48:22 ws [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 15:50:27 I'm a big fan of term rewriting, but practical stand-alone TR systems provide lots of built-in rewrite rules. As syntax-rules stands, something as simple as + cannot be represented except by the expedient of expressing numbers as lists. 15:50:32 The fact that it's turing complete isn't of great help when you're trying to add numbers, concatenate strings, or do other moderately interesting things. 15:50:51 Just so. 15:50:59 This is a problem that could be solved with additional primitives, though. 15:52:00 In any case, arcfide's original claim was that Scheme needed no preprocessors, because syntax extension can do anything. In practice, syntax-rules *can't* do anything, which I consider a virtue. 15:52:17 (that is, it is false that syntax-rules can do anything) 15:53:14 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:21 XSLT has been proved Turing-complete, but this fact depends only on its ability to concatenate and split strings! 15:53:36 There are other things which are possible in `syntax-rules' but which are incredibly, incredibly convoluted and which could sensibly made primitives, notably checks for identifier-ness and checks for duplicate bound identifiers. 15:53:54 Indeed. 15:54:08 Alas, the energy that might have gone into that has historically been put into divergent low-level macro systems. 15:55:29 I still generally prefer to use `syntax-rules' where possible. I don't tend to reach for the sawzall where tweezers will do. 15:55:57 Indeed, I would never go beyond syntax-rules: I'd rather have the guaranteed safety of a preprocessor. 15:56:39 Hmm, I didn't know that "Sawzall" was the name of a saw, also. 15:56:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawzall_(programming_language) 15:57:11 Ah, it seems to be a trademark. 15:57:16 I didn't know it was the name of a programming language! 15:57:32 By Rob Pike, even. 15:57:52 The conceit is that it's used to process logs, punning on the word "logs". 15:58:22 Ah. I was thinking that it was very likely to cut your fingers off if you aren't careful. :-) 15:58:35 *jcowan* chuckles. 15:58:59 ... which is why I was analogizing it to procedural macro systems. 15:59:39 Quite so. 15:59:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:01:35 chandler, i don't think procedural macro systems are any more dangerous than syntax-rules 16:03:53 Provided (a) the implementation has straightened out all the details of phased evaluation sensibly, and (b) you never do silly things with `datum->syntax', sure. 16:04:46 if you do things that are hard, then it's hard, but i don't see why that's a knock on procedural macros 16:04:47 (a) is hardly universally true, and (b) is the equivalent of "don't stick your finger in the sawzall". 16:05:33 and (a) is just "don't use broken implementations", which isn't so hard given that there are now lots that do it correctly 16:06:39 Really? Which ones are you thinking of, besides (obviously) Racket? 16:06:46 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:07:16 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:18 askhader pasted "simple html render" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111534 16:09:12 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09:18 -!- pjb-work [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:33 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:12:32 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:02 chandler, ikarus, chez, larceny, any other r6rs implementation 16:13:28 i'm not a fan of implicit phasing or single instantiation, but for simple things all the semantics will work correctly 16:15:09 Can you tell me what you have against implicit phasing? 16:16:39 jcowan, you can't correctly implement some forms of inter-module communication with implicit phasing 16:17:05 for an example, see "Advanced Macrology and the Implementation of Typed Scheme", Scheme workshop 07 16:17:38 not that that talks about implicit phasing, but the system presented there won't do the right thing in an implicitly phased system 16:18:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:18:35 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:20:33 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:20:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:15 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.169.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:40 Wherein lies the bug, then? 16:31:27 jcowan, you can't properly specify when to run modules that are needed only for side effect 16:31:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-182.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:32:17 also, i'm not convinced that it can infer what phase to require modules at in all cases 16:32:22 Ah. 16:32:34 for example, when the identifier bindings are needed only for identifier comparisons 16:33:41 also, explicit is better than implicit, at least in this case, i think 16:38:16 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:26 alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:41:43 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:52 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-84.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:45:18 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:45 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-250.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:46 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:27 Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.93.74] has joined #scheme 16:52:33 Hello. 16:54:32 Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 16:54:39 greetings 16:54:41 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-66-152.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:54:41 I'm using "namespace-mapped-symbols" in Racket but there is a problem, it always returns an empty list when using #lang racket. 16:55:04 However if i run it in the repl it works fine. 16:55:15 Nils^: Hello. 16:55:59 I finally found out more about sxml and sxpath but I just don't know one little detail, maybe you can help? This is the small sxml data file: http://pastebin.com/SbdnTbLu and I have an sxpath command that should retreive the element called "pitch". But I can only get ALL (two) pitch elements with: 16:56:08 (define lol1 ((sxpath '(score-partwise part measure note pitch step) ) sxml)) 16:56:40 how is the syntax to specify that I only want measure number 1 or 2, for example 16:57:34 ((sxpath '(// (foo 2))) '(blah (foo "first") (foo "second"))) 16:58:06 Glendaal, for such a specific question about racket you might find more help in #racket 16:58:25 winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:58:41 Nils^: This corresponds to xpath's bracketed array notation: //foo[2] 16:59:33 sjamaan: If its not too much could you rewrite your example to my case? I know this is newbish, but I don't know what your example means. 16:59:53 jonrafkind, thanks i didn't know about such channel. 17:00:01 ya, its relatively new 17:00:05 Nils^: Change pitch to (pitch 2) 17:01:53 sjamaan: thanks, but how will this help me to find out which information holds the pitch element in (measure (@ (number "2")) ... and not number 1 17:02:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-66-152.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 17:02:48 Oh, sorry, I thought you wanted to get the second pitch 17:03:52 xpath is weird 17:03:56 never did grok it 17:03:57 it is :) 17:04:04 Glendaal, the default current namespace is empty in #lang racket 17:04:09 I usually flail about a bit until it works 17:04:19 only sxpath I ever wrote, I wrote via "cargo-culting": copying something and poking randomly at it until it appeared to work 17:04:23 Yes, samth, i found i have to use make-base-namespace. 17:04:26 Same here :) 17:04:33 the alternative was I should write my own sxml parser. I don't know if this was suggested here or in #guile but I fear this is too much for me 17:04:35 then backing away slowly 17:04:36 My fault not taking a look at the doc. 17:04:48 offby1: That's "whacking", as distinct from "hacking" 17:04:57 one would think that our own jcowan would be full of useful advice about parsing xml 17:04:57 :-) 17:05:10 Nils^: What exactly do you want to accomplish? 17:05:13 *offby1* runs for the bus 17:05:23 One would, but I have never explored sxml/sxpath. 17:05:41 sjamaan: do you know anything about music notation, basic structures? 17:05:51 No 17:06:05 sjamaan: ok, this is the background. Simply said: 17:07:21 hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.43.117] has joined #scheme 17:07:54 sjamaan: You have rows (timelines) which are divided into segments, the "measures", these do not align vertically (so the segment count can be different for each row). This measure can be filled by a various amount of objects (notes, rests etc.), each of this object has few more parameters like this "pitch" here. 17:08:49 the sxml example here has one row, two measures in it. Measure 2 follow Measure 1. Each measure has one note object in it. 17:09:38 I need to gather the information in Measure 1 about the note object and combine it into a scheme function with the information as parameters. From this point everything is done already, so thats not the concern here. 17:09:53 And then measure 2 etc. 17:19:03 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-168-165-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:13 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:12 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:23:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:27:23 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@router1.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:28 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:36:38 Nils^: ((sxpath '(// (measure ((equal? (@ (number "2"))))))) doc) seems to do the trick 17:37:03 Select the measure that has a child node which is equal to the node '(@ (number "2")) 17:46:24 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:48:35 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-62-103.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:54:28 jcowan: you there? 17:57:18 Yes. 17:57:39 Riastradh suggested that I ask you about reproducible builds. 17:58:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:02:52 sure 18:02:56 what do you want to know? 18:03:08 I've been working on XCVB to achieve that for CL. 18:03:35 the big Enemy being escaping side-effects 18:04:04 unseen, uncontrolled, non-deterministic, side-effect 18:05:21 As I understand it, the main problem is that the package namespace is global and absolute. 18:05:22 and it's not easy to control short of either going deep kernel-level, or introducing a layer of indirection that allows to reify implicit monads. 18:05:36 you mean for CL? that's an orthogonal horror. 18:06:22 no, the main problem for CL is that everything is a side-effect, including something as innocuous in other languages as defining a function. 18:06:33 Isn't it a special case? When you read a symbol, you side-effect the list of all packages in an unpredictable way. 18:06:43 defun == (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) 18:07:40 you can see it that way, but I don't think it's particularly helpful -- first making the false assumption that packages help with the issue only to realize they don't. 18:08:12 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-163-143-192.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:37 So what you really need is a virtual CL implementation in CL. 18:08:39 Scheme doesn't have this issue. Or rather doesn't even have this issue -- because things are even less well-defined. 18:08:47 yes, but a standard one. 18:08:51 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:09:15 we have many many virtual CL implementations in CL -- doesn't help much if you can't reliably reflect on them. 18:09:35 maybe a family of CL and CL-like implementations in Racket could help 18:09:44 I'm confused. 18:09:51 (but then, many use CL because SBCL has a semi-decent compiler that Racket doesn't have) 18:10:05 there are many CL-in-CL implementations already. 18:10:48 Full ones, or meta-circular ones? 18:10:48 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:49 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:56 But they don't help with the problem of leveraging existing code-base to mix and match with modules in a better language (CL variant or not) 18:11:11 either, depending on your tastes. 18:11:19 alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:11:43 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:12:01 If you have a from-scratch implementation of CL in CL, there seems no reason why you can't reflect on it. By "from-scratch" I mean that symbols are not represented using symbols, numbers are not represented using numbers, functions are not represented using functions, etc. 18:12:34 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-114-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:33 SBCL, various CL-with-continuation interpreters/compilers, ACL2, Sacla, etc. 18:13:39 may each count to a point. 18:14:32 Fare: last time I tried it, SBCL was roughly the same as Allegro, and Racket has got a long way up and is often in the same neighborhood. 18:16:01 (Clarfication: when I compare Racket vs Allegro, they're usually performing similarly. I don't have SBCL now but it's likely in the same neighborhood.) 18:16:24 -!- ws [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: ...] 18:21:09 where its type inference engine is applicable (heavily numeric code), SBCL can be very good. 18:22:30 that's an issue for QPX 18:22:32 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:36 We now have unsafe fixnums, flonums, etc. 18:23:05 *eli* mumbles something incomprehensible 18:23:14 For when getting the wrong answer fast is very important. 18:23:32 eli, i don't think we're competitive w/ SBCL yet 18:24:04 jcowan: I was about to say that at some point we'll have it done safely even. 18:24:24 samth: See what I wrote above -- we're certainly competitive with Allegro. 18:27:31 eli, i hesitate to take the shootout benchmarks to mean much, but this doesn't make us look that good: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=mzscheme&lang2=sbcl 18:27:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/348lndc 18:27:48 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-48.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 18:28:13 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@171.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:15 good evening everyone 18:29:52 alvatar [~alvatar@106.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:30:20 samth: No, I wouldn't attribute any serious significance to the shootout -- *including* that first entry there, where PLT is 10x faster than SBCL. 18:30:53 i agree that your pidigits benchmark is not representative 18:31:12 but i don't think matthew would claim to be competetive w/ sbcl either 18:32:32 does SBCL need a bignum impl that is competitive with gmp? is that why pidigits is slow? 18:34:43 ventonegro [~alex@187.51.143.218] has joined #scheme 18:36:01 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:58 could you repost the benchmark, please? 18:40:07 I think I lost connection, very bad wifi here 18:41:03 http://tinyurl.com/348lndc 18:45:37 thanks! 18:46:50 I didnt' know you talked about the language shootout 18:50:09 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:50:48 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:26 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 18:51:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:03:49 Does Racket's Algol 60 implementation truly implement the Revised Report (as distinct from the Modified Report)? 19:05:07 In particular "own" variables are quite different in the two reports; in the MR they are just C static, but in the RR they have very magic semantics. 19:10:11 jcowan, i'm pretty sure the only person who might know that is matthew 19:10:26 but it's probably easier to just try it 19:11:05 This bitty box can't handle Racket, so I'll try it in a few weeks when I have a real computer. 19:12:35 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:19:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:20:48 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:21:57 It would be interesting to write an Algol 60 by-the-book interpreter that treated all procedure calls as macro expansions. Slow, but interesting. 19:23:12 -!- ventonegro [~alex@187.51.143.218] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 19:25:12 in m4 19:25:37 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:25:57 Well, you also need an imperative execution engine: it's not *all* procedure calls. 19:29:27 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:32:38 -!- Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.93.74] has quit [] 19:34:10 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:49 -!- hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.43.117] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:45:39 alaricsp [~alaric@93.191.34.45] has joined #scheme 19:50:44 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:52 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:00:56 eli: That pidigits benchmark is a great example of why the shootout is such a terrible comparison. The Scheme and CL versions are doing wildy, totally different things for no particular reason, and the Scheme version is mostly benchmarking GMP. 20:02:10 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 20:04:12 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@93.191.34.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:06:09 chandler: Right. 20:06:55 alvatar_ [~alvatar@171.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:07:08 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@106.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:10:15 monra [~monra@147.52.194.191] has joined #scheme 20:11:17 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-222-22-28.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:27 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 20:12:45 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:28 -!- monra [~monra@147.52.194.191] has left #scheme 20:15:51 jcowan: How bitty is the box? 20:16:28 An Asus eeePC with 16 gigs of disk, much of which is in use. It's not mine. 20:17:14 I had no problems running it on such a machine. 20:17:33 Using up more disk space would be inappropriate. 20:17:46 If you're short on space you can get rid of the doc directory. 20:17:56 *jcowan* nods. 20:17:58 I think that even all the scheme sources can be removed. 20:18:09 The Scheme I'm using on it is Chibi. 20:18:20 I'm talking about racket. 20:22:38 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:03 mbishop [~martin@adsl-156-70-129.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:18 I realize that. Installing Racket on a computer with a very small disk that doesn't belong to me is, I judge, inappropriate use of the computer. 20:26:28 -!- alvatar_ [~alvatar@171.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:12 schmir [~schmir@p548DBD92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:31:52 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-72-124.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:21 dz00044551 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:32 -!- dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:52 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-163-143-192.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:03 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:34:49 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:35:38 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-62-103.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:01 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-163-143-192.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:41:51 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@c-67-163-143-192.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:35 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 20:52:46 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 20:57:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:57:22 -!- dz00044551 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:44 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:00:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:06:25 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-156-70-129.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:37 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:25 m4dv0y [~pancho@nat-wifi-voip.campus.utfsm.cl] has joined #scheme 21:14:22 -!- Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 21:15:31 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:18:48 jcowan: I'm back 21:19:51 jcowan: reproducible build is all about being able to identify and quarantine the side-effects involved in building your system. 21:20:01 mbishop [~martin@adsl-222-8-202.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:21:04 of course, it gets tricky when the side-effect is that something adds an entry in a dictionary, and some users of the dictionary are concerned but not others. 21:21:40 What is building a system in the CL context? 21:21:54 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-14-209-54.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:21 for XCVB, it's typically building a Lisp image 21:22:37 or a series of .fasl's. 21:23:01 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:28 -!- m4dv0y [~pancho@nat-wifi-voip.campus.utfsm.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:22 typically, you need to compile plenty of Lisp files, many of them depending on other lisp files, each in its own process (so unaccounted local side effects are discarded). Then you start a fresh image, load everything, and dump an image. 21:25:07 in Racket, I believe they start a new heap for every file they compile that they throw away at the end. 21:25:53 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:15 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:15 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 21:31:00 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:31:46 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:35 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-207-118.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:35:06 m4dv0y [~pancho@nat-wifi-voip.campus.utfsm.cl] has joined #scheme 21:36:53 but the containment of side-effects applies at every step, whatever it is you're building. 21:40:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-182.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:40:59 -!- 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joined #scheme 22:58:12 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:03:49 bremner: I recently had the idea of actually using m4 and found out very quickly why nobody writes code in it :) 23:05:34 Except Sendmail weenies. 23:23:23 Glendaal [Glendaal@83.231.19.244] has joined #scheme 23:23:45 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:28:44 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-23-121.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:30:14 winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:30:37 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.27] has joined #scheme 23:30:40 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:31:53 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-67-85.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:28 ...and autoconf weenies 23:32:28 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-48.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: In respect and admiration of the spirit that lives in the computer.] 23:32:54 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:35:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 23:35:22 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-72-124.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 23:37:30 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-64-20.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:39:48 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-23-121.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:41:01 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: relocating] 23:42:34 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:44:32 -!- timj is now known as timj_ 23:45:16 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 23:45:44 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 23:46:16 -!- timj_ is now known as timj 23:49:00 -!- timj is now known as timj_ 23:49:26 -!- timj_ is now known as timja 23:51:38 -!- acarrico 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