00:01:16 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:01:18 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:15 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-76-89.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:37 Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:46 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:54 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.156.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:11 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:17:46 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #scheme 00:21:46 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:25:46 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-152.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:04 , 00:33:16 read: expected an element for unquoting , (found end-of-file) 00:37:50 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:42:18 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 00:44:30 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:45:52 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:46:01 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 00:53:45 -!- pavelludiq [~pav@87.246.31.31] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:57:40 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 01:06:15 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:40 so far it's looking like R7RS will be case-sensitive 01:22:06 foof: why is case-insensitivity so dear, by the way? 01:22:29 Riastradh is a vociferous proponent, i think. 01:23:25 is it to be able to have the freedom of capitalizing things in irc and ascii docs without \texttt? 01:24:01 the arguments are on the wiki 01:24:38 Riastradh is a vociferous proponent because he actively uses case distinction for stylistic conventions. 01:24:43 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:25:23 Perhaps it helps him read it, but for people not used to his convention it just makes the code a _lot_ harder to read (as is the case with people not used to brackets). 01:26:51 The linguistic and educational arguments are completely bogus in a multi-cultural setting - case-insensitivity just makes things harder for anyone who can't read the script being used. 01:27:12 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 01:27:37 So the only strong argument I can see is hysterical raisins. 01:28:27 e.g. in Riastradh's case a lot of his code will break. That same code doesn't work out of the box in most R5RS implementations anyway, though. 01:30:31 xwl [~user@123.115.97.231] has joined #scheme 01:31:22 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 01:31:49 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please] 01:34:40 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:36:12 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@93-172-144-45.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:26 what a pompous ass: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1814327 01:47:43 foof: had chicken been case-insensitive by default, i imagine, it would have been more meaningful to me; at least. 01:48:42 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:43 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:00 foof: which particular part led to your 'pompous ass' comment? 01:58:43 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 01:59:43 i'd say poul-henning is just experiencing the dionysian ecstacy of hacking-on-the-train; and decided vent his dopamine bloggingly. 02:00:01 rbarraud_: he hasn't done anything new - he's just tuned some parameters - yet he's telling everyone else they're "doing it wrong" and he's dissing my homeboy knuth 02:02:18 foof, he also failed to develop the most interesting part of the article, which was his nod towards the inaccuracy of the computer model. Of course, he also failed to mention the importance of caching in modern architecture. 02:03:12 he failed to do anything really beyond draw a graph and say "look, i made it faster!!!1!" 02:03:35 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:20 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:26 foof: Is there a way to reply to a wg1 post? 02:06:49 eli: not directly, but you can post freely to the scheme-reports_at_scheme-reports.org list 02:07:15 ok 02:08:00 (if you do i'll draw specific attention to the post on the wg1 list) 02:08:50 foof: :) I'm not sure how good that will make, but the bhtl/2 factor just went over my threshold. 02:09:14 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 02:09:23 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:11:54 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:42 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:18 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:24:55 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:29:10 foof: Is there a page for that list? Do I need to subscribe to it? 02:31:02 http://lists.scheme-reports.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/scheme-reports 02:31:12 you probably need to subscribe 02:31:14 Thanks. 02:44:20 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:52:38 timj__ [~timj@e176192140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:02 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176196209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:56:21 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:57:42 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58:08 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:22 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:25 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@4-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:01:16 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 03:06:00 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:07:21 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:37 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:51 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:11:08 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 03:11:11 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-114-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:19:42 eli, bhtl? 03:25:44 brian harvey tom lord 03:25:56 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:27:09 asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.57] has joined #scheme 03:27:27 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:19 foof, Ah. 03:28:33 I wasn't sure I wanted to reply to those.... 03:30:40 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 03:35:19 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:42:20 -!- elderK [~zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Dive, dive, DIVE!] 03:43:36 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:43:45 snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 03:44:42 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:45 -!- snarkyboojum_ is now known as snarkyboojum 03:51:33 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:53:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:54:20 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:03:33 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:27 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:50 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-75-51-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:08:08 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:24 gws [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:35 any scheme interface to sqlite? 04:39:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:42:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:53 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:50:12 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 05:08:15 gws: yes, many implementations have sqlite interfaces 05:13:21 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:18 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:38:24 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:15:11 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 06:20:35 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.97.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23:44 xwl [~user@123.115.97.231] has joined #scheme 06:29:07 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:32:28 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.97.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:16 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:06 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:27 hohoho [~hohoho@2001:200:180:1907:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 06:51:37 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-114-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:35 eli: oh, maybe I don't need to point out your post, it looks like the others were already waiting to pounce on you on the scheme-reports list :) 07:20:46 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:37:08 pavelludiq [~pav@87.246.31.31] has joined #scheme 07:37:59 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:38:20 scheme+sqlite = cool 07:46:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2001:200:180:1907:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:39 hohoho [~hohoho@2001:200:180:1907:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 07:59:15 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 08:03:02 gws: Yeah... but it'd be nicer to have a Schemier interface than SQL 08:03:36 -!- pavelludiq [~pav@87.246.31.31] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:04:18 hm 08:04:32 do the basic data structure of scheme run pretty fast? 08:08:43 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:52 :) 08:09:01 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:10:06 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:11 gws: it depends on the implementation, but broadly speaking scheme compilers are closer to c/java in terms of speed than scripting languages like python/perl/ruby 08:14:29 nice 08:18:22 foof: All I've seen was BH and DR. If there were others then I didn't get those emails. 08:19:14 eli: just those two 08:20:49 So like I said, it most likely will not do anything anyway; I didn't expect BH to get any more sensible. 08:21:20 (And I really do feel bad for his students, but that's no concern for wg1...) 08:24:17 i think they just feel compelled to vent, even though no one in the group is seriously pushing for removal of mutable pairs - that's not even something R6RS did 08:24:51 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 08:25:35 but it's good for someone to stand up for the immutable side. if you have any specific mistakes you or your students have made that would be better. 08:25:48 That's not surprising -- I didn't even think to suggest that in any way. What turned me on was BH's description of PLT as a bunch of ... 08:26:10 ... "theoreticians of bondage and discipline 08:26:10 languages". 08:26:37 Sure students do mistakes, but that's not going to convince anyone of anything. 08:27:08 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27:40 I've even did a couple of 6.001 recitation -- exactly at the period where they do lots of `set-c[ad]r!'ing, so I can say for a fact that MIT students are not better than any other bunch of students when faced with those horrors. 08:27:58 horrros! 08:28:24 And I can also say just how great it worked in my class ever since I switched to restricting mutation to boxes. 08:28:45 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:28:53 All that's just going to fly in the usual pattern. 08:37:51 any nice websites? 08:37:55 in scheme? 08:38:00 ones making $? 08:38:11 oh dear, one of those :/ 08:38:23 -!- gws [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:41 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #scheme 08:39:24 good day everyone 08:39:36 I'm sorry those two are being so unkind, eli 08:40:02 IMHO it's uncalled for 08:44:09 alaricsp: :) I didn't expect any more... And I can guess pretty well now how it will continue. 08:44:34 Yeah... continuing the thread is probably going to fast reach a point of limiting returns :-( 08:44:40 Schemers: we're nicer to newbies than CLers, but really vicious to people who know what they're talking about 08:44:49 Ha! 08:45:16 It just makes me sad that the response has been so aggressive 08:45:41 if we're already @ bondage and discipline, Godwin must be lurking nearish already ;-) 08:45:46 alaricsp: And re your "RUBY/PERL/JAVA/PHP/INSERT-ENEMY-HERE" -- I think that BH truly believes that "RACKET" would fit nicely there; it's the same r6rs thing of "PLT is determined on destroying Scheme". 08:46:26 rbarraud: I had a hook in my reply that was going in that direction... 08:46:50 *eli* goes back to hacking CSS 08:47:12 masm [~masm@bl15-79-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:47:37 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:48:04 Heck, I don't quite agree with how PLT is going, but, y'know, I'd put my life on the line to fight in a war to defend your right to freedom of expression so you can continue to do it! 08:49:10 Well, FWIW, you were right about my opinion re Haskell. 08:49:45 That holier-than-you approach pisses me off. 08:50:10 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:50:26 Especially since they so often resort to unsafe-io when they run into problems that are very well-documented. 08:51:02 Not to mention some Haskell code that is full of the monadic cute sugar to the point of making it look like ordinary (bad) C... 08:51:04 s/you/thou/ 08:51:27 (One foreign language is enough for me...) 08:51:30 I'm all for needing to make mutability explicit, and not in the Haskell way - monads make things TOO serial, and don't get me started on their noncomposability 08:51:43 I read the O'Reilly Haskell book to see if I was just missing something 08:52:06 And I was Saddened by the proportion of it that's "Look! We've used really mind-bending tricks to get the type system to let us do what we want!" :-/ 08:52:22 Which noncomposability is it? 08:52:34 alaricsp: I guess you have to want the type system before you appreciate everything else. 08:52:43 I mean the type system *does* have advantages. 08:52:44 Yes, the whole mind-bending thing is pretty bad in the Haskell neighborhood. 08:53:17 Eg, the obnoxious point-free style, with things like "the owl operator"... 08:53:43 ssbr_: It certainly does; I'm just skeptical that its' worth the costs in that case. I'm interested in more "optional typing", like CL has with its (declare ...)s, but I'm not sure how smart the type inferencing and static error detection is in the best case... I need to look into it one day. 08:53:45 ssbr_: I do agree with that -- having the side-effectness be expressed in the type system is a nice advantage. 08:54:13 I have a way to do something similar in lazy scheme -- without types -- but never got to write it properly. 08:54:55 (BTW, lazy scheme (which I implemented) does have the usual mutation and other side-effects.) 08:55:23 Anybody know a good way of Scheme/Python interop? 08:55:43 (I'm looking at Python calling Scheme, not the other way around) 08:55:56 Should I use the JVM or something and use the respective JVM implementations? 08:56:46 Why not embed a scheme as a foreign library into python? 08:57:01 Because AFAIK nobody's written the bindings, and I'm lazy. 08:57:59 You have foof right here, with a small scheme that is intended to be easily embeddable. 08:58:18 That sounds good. What's the name of it? 08:58:31 chibi 08:58:36 *ssbr_* snorts 08:58:39 nice name. :) 08:58:53 http://synthcode.com/wiki/chibi-scheme 09:00:39 That would work, I guess. 09:00:50 At some point I should look at writing Python bindings. 09:01:58 -!- underdev [~jake@74.117.158.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:07 Huh. For some reason I didn't know that R5RS Scheme was case-insensitive. 09:02:11 Is R6RS also? 09:02:22 (this is noted as a difference in the chibi-scheme readme) 09:02:43 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2001:200:180:1907:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:52 It's a painful corner of the language, and reason for much verbiage. 09:09:05 ssbr_: There's also http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/pyffi for Chicken 09:11:25 hm, I guess that's more for calling python from Scheme 09:12:14 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 09:13:56 ssbr_: if you have a sample of calling some other language from python i could help get you started w/ the chibi bindings (the documentation is pretty sparse at the moment) 09:15:19 foof: the hard part will likely be figuring out the API, not actually writing the bindings. With the right tools, writing bindings becomes the boring/easy part. 09:15:23 (specifically, with Cython) 09:17:01 I'm looking for some decent language bindings that use Cython, but most don't seem to. 09:17:14 python-spidermonkey uses Pyrex, Cython's predecessor, byt it's not very good ;) 09:18:36 hohoho [~hohoho@2002:7230:1934:6:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #scheme 09:19:25 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:56 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:7230:1934:6:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:26 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-96-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@213.221.45.105] has joined #scheme 09:32:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@213.221.45.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:35:58 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-108.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:44:28 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 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[~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:52 schmir [~schmir@p548DB76D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:30:09 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 17:30:29 what is value for enter-key? 17:30:35 *the value 17:35:10 morphir: 13? (char->integer #\^M) 17:36:05 mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-111-140.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 17:36:26 metasyntax: (eq? (read-char) #\^M) 17:36:45 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-130-170.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:14 thats what I'm trying to do here.. 17:37:22 #\newline maybe 17:38:14 sjamaan: yay! :) 17:38:30 10 point heading to the netherlands 17:38:34 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:49 -!- mbishop_ [~martin@adsl-150-28-234.aby.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:39:33 Also, I'm not sure characters are guaranteed to be eq? when equal? 17:39:49 characters should be compared with eqv? 17:40:03 rudybot, (eq? #\c #\c) 17:40:04 samth: So using `eq?' on numbers is never a good idea. 17:40:11 rudybot, eval (eq? #\c #\c) 17:40:13 samth: your sandbox is ready 17:40:13 samth: ; Value: #t 17:40:15 indeed 17:40:29 r5rs eq? 17:40:32 oh, no specbot 17:40:39 rudybot, eval (eq? #\c (read-char (open-input-string "c"))) 17:40:39 samth: ; Value: #t 17:40:46 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_216 17:40:49 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2dw8lss 17:41:04 hmm, i can't seem to break it 17:41:12 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:41:13 It's "implementation-dependent" 17:41:37 Some implementations (like Chicken) always return #t when the characters are equal 17:43:48 I feel like I should really know the answer to this but for some reason I cannot think of it: http://codepad.org/R3qKsVwL 17:44:20 Why is it that the first one produces a list of doubles (2 4 8 ...) but the second one produces a list of (1024 1024 1024 ...)? 17:45:37 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:34 I guess because you're creating closures containing local copies of *A* at the point of the evaluation of the rightmost evaluation in the first example while you're just returning the same old *A* (its final value) in the last 17:46:40 ws [wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 17:47:22 I guess because you're creating closures containing local copies of *A* at the point of the evaluation of the rightmost LAMBDA in the first example while you're just returning the same old *A* (its final value) in the last 17:47:31 (sorry bout that) 17:50:13 So is it correct to say, in other words, that the LAMBDA is closing over a pointer to either y (first) or *A* (second), but in the first one, y is a copy of the value of *A* at that time and therefore the pointer in the closure references 2, 4, 8, ... rather than *A* (which is of course 1024 at the time the LAMBDA is called). 17:50:40 There are no pointers in Scheme 17:50:58 But the idea is more or less the same 17:51:47 y is a box which will contain the same as the box *A* contains when it's created. Later something else is put in the box *A*, but y is another box which still contains the same value the box *A* contained when it was created 17:52:01 Sure, I understand no pointers in the C sense. 17:52:43 Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. 17:54:12 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:15 carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:00:25 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-58-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:03:46 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 18:03:57 -!- schmir [~schmir@p548DB76D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:55 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:13:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:52 Ah-ha, and when I use a real box [(define *A* (box 1)) in Gambit] then (let ((y *A*))) causes the value of y to be the same box that's the value of *A*, so there's another layer to unwrap. Makes perfect sense now. 18:16:12 Thanks for putting it into words for me sjamaan. 18:16:30 yw 18:18:10 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:19:10 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-108.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:21:03 copec [~copecd@64.244.102.130] has joined #scheme 18:21:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-190.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:22:58 -!- FareWell [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:51 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-35.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:26:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-35.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:33:13 laeila [~laeila@188-193-95-74-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:39:42 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-173-141.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:22 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42:57 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 18:52:12 rgrau_ [~user@101.Red-88-15-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:15 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 19:21:25 hhomar [~ice@92.27.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:34:52 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 19:35:08 -!- carter_ [~carter@cpe-69-201-181-224.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:51 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:45 -!- hhomar [~ice@92.27.36.222] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:51:00 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:19 jlongster [~user@c-71-204-23-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:35 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:53:38 mije [5d0bfc5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.11.252.95] has joined #scheme 19:53:42 alvatar_ [~alvatar@210.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:54:04 sladegen [~nemo@dynamic-78-8-0-211.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 19:54:10 -!- sladegen [~nemo@dynamic-78-8-0-211.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:54:10 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:55:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-58-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05:07 schmir [~schmir@p548DA4CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:29 kar8nga [~kar8nga@81.253.10.120] has joined #scheme 20:08:45 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:09:18 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:14:12 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-232-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 20:17:33 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:21:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-190.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:23:08 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has joined #scheme 20:28:34 mmc1 [~michal@cs181176076.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:32:17 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:35:16 -!- mije [5d0bfc5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.11.252.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:59 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:12 xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has joined #scheme 20:39:15 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:32 xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has joined #scheme 20:40:36 -!- xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:52 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-218.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:49:44 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:54:47 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 20:55:07 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@81.253.10.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:56:41 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:00:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:06:49 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:15 -!- schmir [~schmir@p548DA4CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:26 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 21:08:31 schmir [~schmir@p548DA4CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:08:40 -!- schmir [~schmir@p548DA4CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:33 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:15 hum. 21:14:30 Any idea for a speaker for June 28th? 21:14:46 xwl [~user@125.34.174.67] has joined #scheme 21:14:47 maybe a debate? or a common coding session? 21:16:46 lisp vs C? 21:17:10 emacs vs vi is a good one too 21:17:55 find me a lisper advocating vi... 21:17:58 or C. 21:18:20 or lightning talks... 21:18:28 Fare, I write Common Lisp on my day job an I use Vim 21:18:30 i use scheme and advocate vi :p 21:18:50 MichaelRaskin, can you demonstrate a vi lisp mode? 21:19:01 What is a lisp mode? 21:19:21 the killer feature of emacs for scheme is Paredit 21:19:32 but vi is really good 21:19:41 and faster for anything besides s-expressions 21:19:51 I get syntax highlighting, auto-indent and sending separate s-expressions to running lisp 21:20:16 alvatar, if you come present paredit, that's cool, too. 21:20:20 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:21 And of course, parent-matching allows me to do operations in term of s-expressions of given level 21:20:45 Paredit is really nice, good enough to justify a change to emacs 21:20:54 MichaelRaskin, if you come present vi for Lisp, you're in. 21:21:08 lightning talk = 5' talk plus 2' Q&A 21:21:34 Well, it is a noticeable travel from Moscow... 21:22:20 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:22:23 Fare: I'm not the creator of Paredit :) 21:22:41 and so poor I can't pay trips at the moment :D 21:22:47 meh. 21:22:50 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:23:44 lol 21:23:58 it's better to accept reality :) 21:25:34 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 21:25:45 -!- Blkt` is now known as Blkt 21:32:46 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:15 mbishop_ [~martin@adsl-241-69-131.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:52:25 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:54:01 -!- mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-111-140.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:57:22 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 22:01:37 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-79-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:42 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:30 -!- laeila [~laeila@188-193-95-74-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #scheme 22:03:25 MichaelRaskin: how do you send separate s-expr to the running lisp? 22:03:36 Look at Limp 22:03:52 mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-73-44.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:04 (Unless making a binding for copying to clipboard us enough for you) 22:05:42 I will check it out. 22:06:04 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-35.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:07:04 -!- mbishop_ [~martin@adsl-241-69-131.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:10 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 22:07:36 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-35.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:53 -!- alvatar_ [~alvatar@210.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:03 MichaelRaskin: does it work with scheme? 22:09:09 Yes 22:09:18 alvatar_ [~alvatar@19.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 22:09:59 very good! 22:10:43 You may need to fix a few bah script lines, though 22:11:00 To replace SBCL invokation with scheme one 22:11:20 But it uses "screen", so it doesn't care 22:11:46 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:12:04 sure, I will poke around with it 22:12:48 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 22:17:03 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 22:18:23 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:19:05 davazp [~user@13.Red-79-154-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:53 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:27:29 -!- Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [K-Lined] 22:35:31 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 22:35:49 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:38:56 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-37-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:40:59 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:42:15 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:12 -!- davazp [~user@13.Red-79-154-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:37 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:48:14 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has joined #scheme 22:49:58 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-37-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:52:59 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has quit [Client Quit] 22:53:20 m4dv0y [~pancho@201.215.3.226] has joined #scheme 22:53:26 heloo 22:53:28 hello 22:53:43 hi 22:54:02 hi 22:54:09 can you help me with a function 22:54:16 that i've working 22:54:22 been 22:57:28 m4dv0y pasted "maximum func" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111445 23:03:32 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:04:21 m4dv0y: can you give me a sample input, please? 23:05:00 (9 (7 (5 (2 #f #f) (6 #f #f)) #f) (20 (15 #f #f) (31 #f #f))) 23:05:24 it should returns (31 #f #f) 23:05:34 because it's the node with the maximum value 23:05:35 highest 23:05:52 m4dv0y: at the moment the code is malformed 23:06:07 :( 23:06:08 ill-formed say my interpreter :) 23:06:19 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:06:32 can you help me to fix it 23:07:09 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 23:08:38 there is one simple way to do this, which needs two passes 23:08:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has joined #scheme 23:08:54 first: flatten, then fold with the max 23:09:31 Why cons at all? 23:11:45 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:53 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.185] has joined #scheme 23:13:17 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:15:13 m4dv0y: this is a simple solution, that could be more elegant if #f wouldn't be accepted in the input, just numbers 23:15:22 is far from perfect, because this sould be done in one pass 23:15:46 (reduce (lambda (a b) (cond ((not a) b) ((not b) a) (max a b))) 0 (flatten input-list)) 23:16:08 you need reduce from srfi-1, and flatten which is pretty common function 23:16:32 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:16:50 but at the moment I'm not sure how to elegantly accumulate the max when you do a recursion on the CDR and on the CAR at the same time 23:17:00 (in one pass) 23:19:10 actually I think I know 23:19:36 i don't understand de reduce fun 23:20:03 per example this function find the maximum value in a list 23:20:53 m4dv0y pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111446 23:22:33 alvatar annotated #111445 "flatten-fold" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111445#1 23:23:24 m4dv0y: the function I made can be used like this: (flatten-fold max input-list) 23:23:37 m4dv0y: but this use would work without #f 23:23:55 :O 23:23:56 really? 23:24:27 m4dv0y: if you want them, then you have to make a lambda that handles it, for example: (lambda (a b) (cond ((not a) b) ((not b) a) (max a b)) 23:24:29 let me check 23:24:47 mbishop_ [~martin@adsl-35-254-183.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:48 yes I'll check it too 23:26:04 what is max? 23:27:00 max is the function that returns the max value of 2 23:27:22 when you created the function max? 23:27:38 (flatten-fold (lambda (a b) (cond ((not a) b) ((not b) a) (else (max a b)))) '(9 (7 (5 (2 #f #f) (6 #f #f)) #f) (20 (15 #f #f) (31 #f #f)))) 23:27:42 -!- jlongster [~user@c-71-204-23-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:27:42 it seems it works 23:27:48 sorry I forgot to add "else" 23:27:53 max is part of the r5rs standard 23:28:08 :O 23:28:16 -!- mbishop__ [~martin@adsl-156-73-44.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:28:21 arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-75-51-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:28:36 ok 23:28:42 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_274 23:28:42 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/54zhx2 23:28:48 so 23:29:05 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has left #scheme 23:29:16 mmm 23:29:18 I don't know if flatten-fold is a good name, but it works as a mix and I like that kind of names 23:29:21 that condition 23:29:40 that condition takes care of handling the #f, when you are not comparing two numbers 23:29:58 but you have to improve it if your input list is going to have something besides numbers and #f's 23:30:13 but where is gonna be this condition 23:30:31 first is the null condition returns 0 23:30:40 well, and if it compares 2 #f it will also break in some cases, I just didn't think too much about that 23:30:43 then if isn't pair return x 23:31:10 you mean of the function or the lambda that I made as an example? 23:31:20 the function 23:31:50 and if i wnt to return 23:31:52 the entire node 23:32:03 with the left and right child 23:32:09 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:33:17 actually the function I made is a hack, a bit crappy, in the sense that is neither a well made fold or flatten 23:33:27 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:33:42 -!- rgrau_ [~user@101.Red-88-15-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:46 it works for this case, but when it reaches the end, it will compare with 0, so if all your numbers are negative it will yield 0 23:33:50 which is wrong 23:34:11 so is a matter of stopping before that :) 23:34:50 when i created a node 23:34:56 m4dv0y: basically, the function what does is to execute the predicate "f" over all pairs of leafs 23:35:20 it checks 2 things: the end of the list, and if it is a leaf 23:35:22 i've to pass it a value and a #f left-child and #f right-child 23:35:32 but i've this function 23:36:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:36:14 m4dv0y annotated #111445 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111445#2 23:36:50 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 23:36:58 -!- jao [~user@234.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:37:09 m4dv0y: where are you from? 23:37:16 chile 23:37:24 my english is not quite good 23:37:30 is it 23:37:31 ? 23:37:34 I'm from spain 23:37:44 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:37:58 but let's speak our crappy english here ;) 23:37:59 can we speak in spanish please? 23:38:03 I said because of your comments 23:38:23 ok, let's open a private query 23:38:27 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 23:38:40 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #scheme 23:38:52 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.119] has joined #scheme 23:39:16 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 23:44:39 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-37-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:57:36 -!- alvatar_ [~alvatar@19.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving]