00:01:14 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:49 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:24:43 -!- samth [~samth@216.239.45.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:07 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:35:47 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.140] has joined #scheme 00:36:25 evenin' 00:40:53 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 00:46:26 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 00:46:48 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:54 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:16 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 00:54:56 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:19 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 01:02:13 mornin' 01:02:16 Thomas [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:42 *foof* knows doc_who is a time traveler so is not disconcerted by the time difference 01:04:09 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:32 incubot: middle of late night, to be precise. 01:05:36 please be a bit more coherent and precise than that 01:06:05 *sladegen* smacks incubot with an ironyshtick. 01:10:31 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:46 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:26:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-37.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:14 bpalmer [~user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #scheme 01:27:44 *jcowan* appears and all that. 01:28:00 hey jcowan :) 01:28:02 how's life? 01:28:19 Still no job, one offer, waiting on some more. 01:28:19 jcowan, memo from gnomon: remind me to ask you about your involvement with APL sometime. I would really love to hear the story. Or was your work on the table purely a result of your involvement with the Unicode process? 01:29:34 What? APL? 01:30:33 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 01:30:59 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:14 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 01:31:33 what? One googler enters, another leaves? Alas. 01:31:50 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:33:13 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:33:35 Once I was a Noogler, now I'm an Xoogler. 01:33:52 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 01:36:55 minion: memo to gnomon: nope, never did anything with APL, the table was just a contribution to Unicode. 01:36:55 Remembered. I'll tell gnomon when he/she/it next speaks. 01:36:58 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:34 Daemmerung: After all, even Google can't go on growing exponentially. The old order changeth, giving rise to the new. 01:38:05 Buddy, can you spare a dime ... 01:38:25 So far we're still eating. 01:39:39 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 01:43:59 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:44:13 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:22 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:06 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 02:08:50 I have some great recipes using cat food and little fast-food ketchup packets, if needed. 02:09:26 ramen is cheaper than cat food 02:10:37 but there's a baby to take care of, and babies need meat 02:10:56 we'll just have to cannibalize the less active WG1 members 02:11:59 Sounds good. 02:12:11 BTW, Patrick Durusau should be exempt from voting, since he joined in order to help with editing. 02:12:18 (If he votes, that's fine.) 02:12:28 is a majority among the fixed participants, or only among those living? 02:13:05 they have to be alive 02:13:24 we'll setup a thunderdome before any final votes are called for 02:13:39 Who plays Mad Max? 02:13:45 Olin, of course! 02:14:31 Yeah, I knew that. 02:17:35 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: ros3] 02:17:39 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:19:43 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-60-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:20 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:38 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:44 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:31:13 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:37:46 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.19.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:54 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 02:45:28 jcowan: you un-disappeared with a certain insouciance today. 02:46:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:51 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 02:47:15 I suppose. 02:47:47 So... 02:48:00 It's been two days that I have an ipad. 02:48:12 oh, you got one, too? 02:48:15 do tell 02:48:18 The single best word that describes it, IMO, is "scary". 02:48:28 trying to find a use for it beside pink panther reruns for the kid. 02:48:45 It's almost absolutely useless. 02:48:55 And the lockdown thing is scary. 02:49:19 Without Apple it's basically a shiny paper weight. 02:49:30 have you jailbroken yet? 02:49:36 You can type on it. And ... watch youtube. And ... tweet. And ... draw pictures. 02:49:37 No. 02:49:56 Okay, so it's not a computer. For a non-computer, you can do quite a lot. 02:50:11 at least you get a shell then with root access; maybe you can even compile plt out of the box. 02:50:11 It's idiotic at such high levels that it's scares me how many people spend that much money to buy one. 02:50:15 None of the other non-computers around can do those things, though they can microwave food, etc. 02:50:36 And I know several people who use it as an e-book reader and enjoy it. 02:50:59 FWIW, if anyone wants to buy one -- wit for the price to drop below $20, then it might be worth it. A little. 02:51:00 If it substitutes for enough hardcover books, it even makes sense, economically. 02:51:30 (as you can get "hardcover"-ish books for $10-15, as opposed to the $20-30 of paper) 02:51:37 klutometis: BTW, there are some nice kid-related things on it. 02:51:48 that winnie the pooh app is awesome 02:52:06 eli: also fwiw: my three-year-old finds the directitude of "point at the link" more intuitive than the indirect "use this object to manipulate the arrow to click on the link" business. 02:52:23 bpalmer: Huh? You'd need a ton of books to justify $900, and even then you could spend a fraction of that on a real computer. 02:52:38 eli: $500. 02:52:52 bpalmer: 3g, 64gb. 02:52:55 Higher. 02:53:04 yeah, if you're getting all that, then you have only yourself to blame. *cough* 02:53:19 bpalmer: And besides, I didn't try it as a reader, but the reflection of this thing makes it useless as one. 02:53:23 after jailbreaking, and with a couple programming languages on there, it might make a reasonable toddler's-first-computer 02:53:34 eli: try reading it in the dark. (Which is where e-ink displays fail) 02:53:37 eli: what seduced you, finally, to buy one; btw? 02:53:44 (It wasn't my wallet that was punctured for it.) 02:54:10 "We" got one -- actually, practically forced to take it. 02:54:22 ah 02:54:29 I hate getting mugged in certain areas of the city :( 02:54:43 "You'll take this iPad or you're a dead man." 02:54:53 Yeah, it was close to that. 02:55:02 What, you'd prefer to be mugged only in the more classy neighborhoods? 02:55:08 Leave the iPad; take the cannoli 02:56:31 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176195251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:56:43 I actually image-googled "nude" today, with the safety thing off. 02:56:57 It was somewhat relieving to get the expected results. 02:57:19 snapshot of a dictionary page defining the term? 02:57:28 I really wouldn't be surprised if that option was missing, of if there would be some apple page saying that certain content is blocked or whatever. 02:57:53 It's just so ... controlled, it's absolutely amazing. 02:58:08 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:58:09 or a video of steve jobs wagging his finger at you with a fake ned flanders mustache? 02:58:21 :) 02:59:29 Even technically it's a pretty shitty thing, and still it sells. 02:59:40 Looked shiny. 02:59:56 I really didn't get the whole no-multitasking whining thing, until I got it. 03:00:21 I have ssh -- but if I want to look at a web page, I must quit that. 03:00:38 It's like some futuristic machine from 200 years ago. 03:00:41 yeah, ssh is a bad example. There are vnc apps, however, which may work better. 03:00:42 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 03:00:50 I got a vnc thing also. 03:00:53 Same deal. 03:01:00 keep the state on the server, and use apps that have lightweight connection/reconnection paradigms. 03:01:06 You just can't switch thing. 03:01:12 does the browser allow multipel tabs? 03:01:19 Yes, kind of. 03:01:23 apple is supposedly coming out with a multi-tasking API soon. 03:01:26 9 "tabs". 03:01:39 But if you switch to a different tab -- it reloads the page. 03:01:49 "pages" is more apt; and they're heavy-weight, too: it's a pain to navigate between them. 03:02:24 Sounds like they rushed it out. 03:02:38 I don't think they did. 03:02:49 sounds like it's the same UI as on the ipod touch, which has been around forever. 03:02:54 arcfide: that's a fair assessment, actually; the first-gen iphones suffered similar warts, too. 03:02:59 Imagine all this money they'll get when the second version comes out with a camera. 03:03:04 Or whatever. 03:03:05 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03:25 And using the 9 pages works; you just have to treat it differently than you would your tab-riffic browser on your main computer. 03:03:45 There are som many missing features that they can easily have 10 new versions out before it becomes useful. 03:04:00 And I'm sure that there are people who will buy each and every one of these versions. 03:04:15 Not only that, they'll come the night before to stand in the line to get one. 03:04:31 The only reason I might want it is for reading books, but the shiny surface definitely makes that a no go. 03:04:46 And not only that, they'll talk to tv reporters with stupid smiles on their idiotic faces explaining just how excited they are. 03:04:54 I have yet to find a reader that actually lets me read like a regular book, which is what I want. 03:05:06 arcfide: We have a kindle too -- there's no competition. 03:05:21 If you really want to read books, don't even think about an ipad. 03:05:23 eli: Is the Kindle anything like the Nook? 03:05:32 I don't know what's a nook. 03:05:33 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 03:05:44 It's Barnes & Noble's version of the e-Book reader. 03:05:54 Ah, no -- I never saw one. 03:06:04 *foof* really hates the glossy screen on his notebook 03:06:30 The kindle is crappy as a computer too; slow screen refresh, bad keyboard, etc etc -- but if you're just reading books it works perfectly fine. 03:06:32 I have only been marginally impressed with the Nook, in that at least the matte finish makes things semi-readable. 03:06:33 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:09 The fonts were not very nice on the Nook, and the paragraph formatting was terrible, and it couldn't update the pages fast enough for me to read. 03:07:23 the last is why I didn't get the first kindle 03:07:37 but I hear the kindle dx is somewhat faster at that, plus supports PDFs. 03:07:38 The text rendering on the kindle is -- IMO -- pretty amazing. 03:07:38 So, I'd be reading a paragraph and I couldn't hit the next button fast enough, which was really annoying. 03:08:02 eli: I assume that at least it justifies the paragraph? 03:08:33 arcfide: (I'm missing the "it" and "the" references...) 03:08:40 timj_ [~timj@e176193125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:08:46 eli: The paragraph and text rendering on the Kindle. 03:09:20 Ah, justifies the text. I don't remember. 03:09:42 "This text is justified for reasons of national security." 03:09:48 s/for/by/ 03:10:06 It's lying next to my sleeping spouse. Trying to get it is therefore dangerous. 03:10:31 does the ipad safari allow HTML5 local data storage? 03:10:34 arcfide, it depends on the book, but it does most of the time 03:10:35 eli: Hrm, possessive reflexes while sleeping, huh? :-) 03:11:02 (actually, almost always in my experience) 03:11:10 There's an "app" on the ipad called "mirror" -- it draws a frame around a blank screen. Overall, it's a little less effective than turning the stupid thing off. 03:11:26 It's like a whole culture growing on this kind of "oooh shiny" mentality. 03:11:47 that's why I got mine 03:11:49 it's so shiny 03:11:56 foof: If you tell me how to try it I'll tell you what it does... 03:12:10 *jcowan* prefers plain black, actually. 03:12:16 it's actually not as bad for reading as I thought it would be 03:12:42 Paper books! \o/ 03:12:52 copumpkin: Heheh. Well, I know some people who can read all day long on their computers. I for one have a tendency to print out even my source code. 03:12:55 I suspect that there's a whole generation that Apple is directly responsible for an overall lowering of its IQ. 03:13:05 lol 03:13:09 And that's not even trying to be funny. 03:13:18 I truly believe that this is what happens. 03:13:22 eli: Neh, Apple just understands how to market to this IQ lowering demographic. 03:13:34 Please PM me about Quad's Printing and Binding services. I print and bind books and documents, source code, papers, etc for cheap! I will even bind blank journals! 03:13:46 That is -- a parallel universe with no Apple would surely beat this one. 03:13:50 What we are getting is homogenization: both the high and the low end are shrinking. 03:14:12 Or start selling stupid things through a wormhole and laugh at us for getting stuck in this stupid future. 03:15:36 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 03:16:05 eli, does the Kindle still have a remote kill switch that Mr Bezos has `promised' not to use? 03:16:09 eli: having trouble finding an example... the only persistent data i have is for times, reuters and wsj, and i don't know what they do 03:16:40 spec is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ 03:16:40 Quadrescence: Are you really in the (physical) book business? 03:16:58 Well, "business", more like a hobby service-ish thing. 03:17:01 eli: but yes 03:17:14 Riastradh: I suppose so -- and I was very pissed at my wife getting that stupid thing -- until I got this ipad. 03:17:25 It makes the kindle look much better. 03:17:48 iphone os doesn't have a remote kill switch, at least 03:17:56 except for location services 03:18:01 :) 03:18:11 Riastradh: In the present copyright regime, I think not having a remote-kill switch would be very bad policy. 03:18:33 foof: But is there a way to try it? (I read about it very briefly, and certainly not enough to remember how to try some quick example.) 03:18:41 this should work: var db = window.openDatabase("notes", "", "The Example Notes App!", 1048576); 03:19:12 you can just go http://webkit.org/demos/sticky-notes/index.html 03:19:27 but I'm pretty sure mobilesafari supports it 03:19:36 copumpkin: thanks! 03:19:36 because I think there's an option in the preferences to clear client-side storage databases 03:19:44 That is absolutely ridiculous, jcowan. If including a remote kill switch reduces the pressure of a bogus copyright regime, then there is apt to be less perceived need to resist such a regime. 03:20:11 That is, it may be a locally good business decision for Amazon, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible. 03:20:19 Or any less scary. 03:20:33 copumpkin: wait, it doesn't work for me, says "try with a webkit nightly" 03:21:02 foof: on your mac it might not (I do use webkit nightlies) but on a recent iphoneos build I think it will 03:21:03 let me try on my ipad 03:21:10 copumpkin: on linux now 03:21:13 firefox 03:22:19 yeah, it works on the ipad 03:22:21 except I can't type 03:22:31 copumpkin, I tried that in w3m, but it didn't work! 03:23:01 Obviously the web page is broken. 03:23:24 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 03:23:28 Riastradh: your tubes may be clogged 03:23:46 and it looks like gmail is already using the client-side storage 03:23:56 foof: You mean something like this: http://tmp.barzilay.org/foo.html ? 03:23:57 cause in my list of databases in the preference pane it lists gmail 03:24:18 foof: which makes FF say "Error: window.openDatabase is not a function" 03:24:24 Oh, wait. This sounds like a feature in w3m, then. 03:25:52 luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has joined #scheme 03:27:11 eli: try the localStorage snippet at http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ 03:27:42 beginning "

you have view this page..." 03:30:13 wait, that doesn't work for me either 03:30:20 stupid competing standards! 03:30:54 The great thing about web standards is that there are so many to pit against one another in death matches for market share! 03:31:44 Riastradh++ 03:32:19 so let's recap, both Google and Apple are now really evil, and MS is still evil, but now in a bumbling way 03:34:24 also Adobe is evil, but mostly to web developers and Apple 03:35:07 well, if you find something testable I'll be happy to try it. 03:35:14 http://synthcode.com/storage.html 03:35:16 Google is evil because they canned teh jcowan? 03:35:30 did they? if so, they are double plus evil 03:35:39 Canned jcowan? Can I get that in supermarkets near me now? 03:35:46 Adamant: I *always* had the opinion that we're lucky that MS got to be the big bad monopoly. 03:36:01 eli: unless you're a graphics or type designer 03:36:13 then you spend all day hating everything MS does 03:36:19 I exaggerate 03:36:25 but only a moderate amount 03:36:35 wait.. how is google evil? 03:37:00 Thomas: they know when are sleeping, they know when we're awake 03:37:08 eli: the above link should work 03:37:08 kinda like Robot Santa from Futurama 03:37:14 Adamant: True enough, but then again they don't really care. 03:37:16 and he's definitely evil 03:38:40 jcowan: I hate to talk shit on someone's current employer in front of them in a semi-public forum, so I won't. 03:38:57 Who here is employed by Google? 03:38:57 ... and fixes the example on the w3.org page to actually perform numeric addition, instead of string concatenation 03:39:12 *foof* hates using + for string concatenation! 03:39:15 also, the shit wouldn't be specific to Google 03:39:55 foof: Yeah, works on FF, I'll try the ipad now. 03:40:25 What, foof, you don't like my generic-functions example? 03:41:20 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-73-34.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:42:06 + should always be commutative, and it should always bind less tightly than *, so much less tightly, in fact, that (* (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)) should be equivalent to (+ 1 (* 2 3) 4). 03:42:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:13 jcowan: nope, that's actually a particular pet peeve of mine 03:43:03 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:44:00 foof: It works. 03:44:03 *foof* can only assume that the webstorage example was intentionally made buggy to point out that the values are loaded as strings 03:44:07 eli: cool 03:44:20 that may be key to treating the ipad as more than a paperweight 03:44:55 How so? IIRC, these things were just slightly improved cookies, no? 03:45:47 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 03:47:41 request URL limit is 4kb, as is each cookie - you can have multiple cookies (>= 30 i think), but they have to be sent out on every request, which makes for a practical limit in the order of maybe <100kb 03:48:19 OK, so how's this saving it from paperweightedness? 03:48:33 the advantage of webstorage is that the data is only accessed on demand, not sent w/ every request, so it becomes practical to allow larger limits (initial i think 5MB though this may grow) 03:48:54 5 MB in Chrome, Safari, Mozilla, Firefox; 10MB in IE 03:49:17 Oh you mean some kind of a web app that works completely client-side. 03:49:49 right, like a code editor + scheme->javascript compiler that works entirely in the browser 03:50:01 and that's one of the stronger arguments for why the iPad/iPhone etc aren't as locked down as all that: the original iphone supported only webapps , so apps (with all their limitations) + webapps are strictly more permissive. 03:50:02 accesing a virtual filesystem based on the webstorage 03:50:25 and webapps are increasingly more powerful, and need no review, etc. 03:51:40 -!- mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:52:22 And I assume you've seen bespin ? 03:54:00 I think that argument is pretty silly. 03:55:01 yeah, webapps are still pretty crappy despite all the hype :) 03:55:16 they will probably turn out OK 03:55:20 Oh? If webapps can do everything that the current applications do, but require no review and going through apple, then the garden isn't that walled; developers are just cut off from the app store. 03:55:23 i'm just suggesting "better than paperweight" status 03:55:31 bpalmer: except they can't 03:55:42 not by a longshot 03:56:05 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 03:56:10 also what happens when Apple loses all the revenue from the App Store? 03:56:50 What happens when P&G lost all the revenue from soap? 03:56:52 bpalmer: you can probably claim that webapps can do whatever current *ipad* applications do -- but that's not saying much. 03:56:55 they've moved the goalposts so many times I think it's silly to assume they wouldn't tamper with that as well if it made fiscal sense. 03:57:37 what are some common scheme projects 03:57:49 jcowan: who knows what the real figures are, but I understand they are actually making money on the App Store bit 03:58:13 Not surprising, since it's monopoly rent. My point is that you can make money even when you no longer have that. 03:58:31 sure, but not as much, unless you invent a new model. 03:59:03 Naturally. The advantages of theft over honest toil are pretty large. 03:59:30 The trouble with rent is that it's addictive. 03:59:59 so is having a $200+ stock share price. 04:00:15 Which spreads the addiction more widely. 04:01:30 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:09 "The widow is gathering nettles for her childrens dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the il de Buf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract from her the third nettle, and call it rent." --William Ogilvie of Pittensear 04:03:31 Adamant: moreover, even if they lose their ability to extract rents from the market, they are not in a position to simply disable the functioning of their web browser and web applications. 04:05:05 bpalmer: they control the vertical, the horizontal, and the OS and firmware 04:05:19 *jcowan* controls the vertical hold and the horizontal hold, however. 04:05:39 you can make an argument for that market-wise, certainly 04:06:25 from a technical standpoint, they could fry the shit out of the phone a hour from now if Steve so desired and had people willing to carry that out. 04:06:49 Yes. From a technical standpoint, Steve Jobs could shoot dead any developer who crossed him, too. 04:07:16 mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:51 bpalmer: sure. but they've already turned the phone into a walled garden, and they control the browser. 04:08:03 Considering how many people regularly jailbreak their phones now, just a hint of such a thing would lead to mass jailbreaking, lawsuits, and all sorts of damage. 04:08:36 I think you have an exaggerated idea of how many people jailbreak their phones 04:09:18 Probably rather less than overwrite Windows on their PCs. 04:09:25 quite a few :) 04:09:27 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:09:36 copumpkin: quiet, you :P 04:09:50 hey, I'm a horse and I'm opening my mouth 04:10:02 :) 04:10:15 I won't check for a gift :P 04:10:34 I'm definitely not a gifthorse 04:10:45 Adamant: I think you underestimate how many people have at least *heard* of jailbreaking, even if they aren't so motivated as to have done it already. 04:10:59 Adamant: our blog is about to hit 100 million visits btw :) 04:11:12 copumpkin: how many uniques? 04:11:22 let me check analytics 04:12:10 ugh, it doesn't work on the webkit nightly :P 04:12:13 *copumpkin* fires up firefox 04:12:48 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:11 bpalmer: I think estimating the number of people capable of doing that kinda stuff is hard. 04:13:29 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 04:13:43 Adamant: http://snapplr.com/fc5k 04:14:52 the people that think everyone is completely nontechnical are usually wrong, as are the folks that assume everyone can and is going to live on the Unix shell for the rest of their life if they just install Distro X 04:15:37 that's pretty impressive. 04:15:51 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15:52 that's since march 2008 04:15:56 yeah 04:16:01 so 2+ years 04:16:11 the big spike was 900k people in one day :P 04:16:18 media link? 04:16:18 we took tumblr down various times 04:16:27 nah, let me figure out what it was 04:16:29 I forgot 04:17:22 iphone 3gs release 04:17:27 june 19 2009 04:18:37 Have any courts or legislators yet weighed in on whether jailbreaking is illegal by the DMCA? 04:18:59 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #scheme 04:19:06 nope, but there's a petition by apple to make it 04:19:20 and several prominent people saying why that's ridiculous 04:20:51 http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/02/apple-says-jailbreaking-illegal 04:20:52 etc. 04:21:00 Yes, that was the last I heard about it. 04:21:07 yeah, not much has happened 04:21:13 thankfully :) 04:21:19 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:24:11 A part of me would like to see it declared illegal, in order to encourage people to see the absurdity of the law and the device, rather than quietly letting the DMCA continue to fasten itself more firmly into place. 04:24:30 I wonder if it could apply retroactively 04:24:36 probably not 04:25:11 If it were a court decision, probably. If it were new legislation, certainly not. 04:25:35 Yeah 04:25:36 If it were legislators opining on current legislation... 04:26:05 I recently received a "we haven't forgotten you, really" note from the Kindle SDK program. Though have been so un-enamored with coding lately that I don't know what I'll do once I get it. Crikey, I've lost my mojo. 04:27:05 Daemmerung: keep your mojo on first gear at least. getting skills back is painful 04:27:46 Yah, tell me about it. I have to reacquire them every autumn. Even remembering where I was in abandoned project X is painful. 04:29:17 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 04:30:33 incubot: where is your continuation? 04:30:36 If you want a continuation, then just pass a continuation; if you want a procedure that will restore a continuation, wrap a closure around a continuation object. 04:31:33 procedures are type unsafe... 04:35:14 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:39 lambda-Luddites are just plain unsafe 04:37:36 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:37:49 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:39:10 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:29 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:50:08 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:50:43 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:50:57 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:53:18 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:00 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:56:26 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:59:02 HG` [~HG@xdslea169.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 04:59:54 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:43 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:00:46 samth [~samth@adsl-63-202-13-187.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:32 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-222-57.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:06:01 rbarraud: you're right, actually; the ad-hocery that results from lambda-phobia is practically inhuman (q.v. python). 05:06:34 Daemmerung: if you need some inspiration, "Coders At Work" may or may not help 05:15:23 klutometis: of course python is inhuman, it's serpentine 05:16:04 yes, imagine the ad hoccery of naming your functions. 05:17:14 foof: just wait until they switch from Monty Python as their inspiration to Thulsa Doom. 05:17:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslea169.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 05:19:27 bpalmer: why stop there? i think we should have to name all intermediate values. 05:20:03 why write "a + b + c" when you can say 05:20:07 sum_of_a_and_b = a + b 05:20:13 sum_of_a_and_b + c 05:22:01 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:22:19 -!- Checkie [16020@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:08 jengle [~jengle@69.0.55.45] has joined #scheme 05:24:57 rahuljha [~rahuljha@122.167.115.133] has joined #scheme 05:25:22 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #scheme 05:30:37 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-35-82-250-198-48.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:40:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:40:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:43:00 tootroot [~baka@unaffiliated/tootroot] has joined #scheme 05:43:55 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100413 05:44:18 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100414 05:44:20 ugh 05:44:21 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100415 05:44:23 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100416 05:44:25 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100417 05:44:26 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100418 05:44:27 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100419 05:44:29 elly: oi 05:44:45 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100420 05:44:47 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100421 05:44:48 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100422 05:44:49 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100423 05:44:51 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100424 05:44:51 -!- rahuljha [~rahuljha@122.167.115.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:56 emma pasted "?DCC SEND "GayNiggerAssociationofAmerica" 0 0 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100425 05:45:11 The epic saga continues. 05:45:28 candler, foof, ArcFide, elly, eli 05:45:38 chandler even 05:45:40 :P 05:45:41 elly pasted "FREENODE OPERS ARE FUCKING KIKE CUNTS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100426 05:45:53 elly pasted "FREENODE OPERS ARE FUCKING KIKE CUNTS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100427 05:45:55 elly pasted "FREENODE OPERS ARE FUCKING KIKE CUNTS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100428 05:45:56 elly pasted "FREENODE OPERS ARE FUCKING KIKE CUNTS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100429 05:46:08 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100430 05:46:14 wow, I just learned a new word 05:46:18 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100431 05:46:19 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100432 05:46:20 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100433 05:46:20 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o elly 05:46:21 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100434 05:46:23 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100435 05:46:24 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100436 05:46:25 that's cute 05:46:26 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100437 05:46:27 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100438 05:46:28 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100439 05:46:29 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100440 05:46:30 elly pasted "IRC.HARDCHATS.COM #GNAA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100441 05:46:30 -!- elly has set mode +q lisppaste!*@* 05:46:31 elly: nice to see you here 05:46:35 yeah, I don't even know 05:46:42 good of it to hilight me 05:46:43 set a +b on lisppaste 05:46:45 how goes, copumpkin? 05:46:48 it'll shut it up :) 05:46:49 copumpkin: the +q'll do 05:46:52 Isn't this.. whatever it is.. really slow? isn't this supposed to be faster? 05:46:57 ah I didn't even know about it 05:47:02 Thomas: I guess they fail 05:47:06 lol 05:47:15 they're not even good trolls 05:48:18 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 05:49:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:09 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:52:34 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 06:01:32 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:03:38 emma: you were trolling! 06:03:44 we have proof! 06:04:33 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:07:19 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:07:23 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 06:08:23 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:10:24 -!- copumpkin is now known as TheHunter 06:10:28 -!- TheHunter is now known as copumpkin 06:11:52 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:12:31 rahuljha [~rahuljha@nat/yahoo/x-dtmgdovyjncpoxgi] has joined #scheme 06:13:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.199] has joined #scheme 06:19:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:21:20 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 06:22:37 HG` [~HG@85.8.72.226] has joined #scheme 06:31:44 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #scheme 06:37:27 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 06:37:31 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 06:41:39 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:42:38 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:20 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:59:44 Checkie [17573@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 07:01:27 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-188-173.net.novis.pt] has left #scheme 07:04:18 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:05:21 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.242] has joined #scheme 07:14:51 -!- Checkie [17573@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:16:27 -!- jengle [~jengle@69.0.55.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:45 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:07 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:19:40 -!- samth [~samth@adsl-63-202-13-187.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:03 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-35-82-250-198-48.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:13 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-42-82-255-95-164.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:31:34 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 07:38:46 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:39:12 masm [~masm@bl19-130-56.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:43:46 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 07:49:20 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:51:58 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:59:23 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 08:04:07 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 08:06:28 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 08:14:44 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 08:17:25 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:32:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:32:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:38 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:35:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:49:53 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.72.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:55:42 what is the difference between (define square (* x x)) and (define square (lambda (x) (* x x))) ? 08:56:12 The former evaluates (* x x) and assigns the result to square 08:56:22 the former returns a value, the latter a function taking 1 argument 08:57:08 so the former will fail if x is not defined 08:58:14 Thomas: what you will see in other code is (define (square x) (* x x)) which is a short form of (define square (lambda (x) (* x x))) 08:58:40 Mathematically, it's like saying: square=x*x or square : N->N / x|->x*x 08:59:00 I meant to write (define (square x) (* x x)) , sorry :\ 08:59:08 wait... 08:59:23 brain = destroyed by scheme, let me reboot for a second 08:59:30 There's no semantic difference between (define (square x) (* x x)) and (define square (lambda (x) (* x x))) 09:00:44 so there is no difference 09:01:44 why use lambda as a form of procedural abstraction when define can do that already? 09:02:05 Neither replaces the other. 09:02:33 Thomas: define is used to assign names to values. lambda is just another value 09:02:58 Thomas: The (define (square x) (* x x)) form is just a shorthand for people too lazy to type (define square (lambda (x) (* x x))) 09:03:02 ie, most people :) 09:04:07 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:04:08 Also, the shorthand looks like an invocation of the function, which helps you remember how to call it 09:06:21 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:36 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:36 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:09:51 right 09:10:06 so the pros use lambda 09:11:22 lambda should be kept out of reach of young children. 09:12:53 Thomas : if both forms are applicable, just use the one you prefer 09:14:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 09:14:43 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 09:18:39 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:58 incubot: n-opposition theory for the NOT-sane in the membrane. 09:20:03 I see. This one is pretty peculiar in the sense that it is very effective, it uses osmosis in reverse to obtain the solvent out of a solution, in this case the water. The membrane used usually is a microscopical layer of something, designed to let really only water through. 09:20:39 my waters are a breaking... 09:20:47 -!- wingo-pi [~wingo-pi@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 09:22:50 karljoh [fooki@h-73-135.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 09:29:52 -!- bpalmer [~user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has left #scheme 09:33:58 [02:11] lambda should be kept out of reach of young children. 09:35:45 Thomas: You'll find most "expert" code uses the shorthand form, actually 09:37:26 -!- elly has set mode -q lisppaste!*@* 09:37:27 -!- elly has set mode -o elly 09:40:59 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:41:31 There has to be something that makes it different at the lowest level 09:41:49 Why? 09:42:06 r5rs define 09:42:06 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_idx_190 09:42:06 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cml55p 09:42:17 Check the spec 09:42:40 Doesn't say anything about it being different 09:43:50 guenther_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #scheme 09:44:20 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:50 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 09:47:53 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:23 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:56:25 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:19 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:01:15 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 10:08:25 Thomas: some prefer to use lambda explicitly to make it clear that it is a function definiton. IIRC htdp does it for this reason 10:08:48 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:09:03 it is a matter of taste with no semantic difference 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:08 coolo 10:16:48 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:16:48 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:18:24 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 10:18:24 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 10:29:16 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 10:29:35 pavelludiq__ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 10:29:38 pavelludiq___ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #scheme 10:31:00 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:02 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:40 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 10:31:51 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:39 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:38:37 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:52:33 -!- pavelludiq___ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52:33 -!- pavelludiq__ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53:45 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 11:11:20 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:17:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:22:38 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:23:36 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 11:33:15 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 11:48:18 alvatar [~alvatar@59.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:54:43 -!- rahuljha [~rahuljha@nat/yahoo/x-dtmgdovyjncpoxgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:56 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 12:03:34 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:30 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:55 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 12:08:40 -!- maw [web209_mar@pdpc/supporter/student/maw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:54 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 12:22:10 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 12:23:48 Hucheng [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has joined #scheme 12:29:04 > (require xml) 12:29:04 > (define x (read-xml (open-input-string "<![CDATA[hello world[mp3]]]></t 12:29:05 <Hucheng> itle>"))) 12:29:05 <Hucheng> > x 12:29:05 <Hucheng> #<document> 12:29:05 <Hucheng> > cdata-string 12:29:07 <Hucheng> #<procedure:cdata-string> 12:29:09 <Hucheng> > (document-element x) 12:29:11 <Hucheng> #<element> 12:29:13 <Hucheng> > (define e (document-element x)) 12:29:15 <Hucheng> > (element-content e) 12:29:17 <Hucheng> (#<cdata>) 12:29:19 <Hucheng> > (cdata-string (car (element-content e))) 12:29:21 <Hucheng> "<![CDATA[hello world[mp3]]>" 12:29:23 <Hucheng> > 12:30:20 <sjamaan> Hucheng: Don't be rude! 12:30:55 <Hucheng> there is one ] dispear in cdata-string 12:31:21 <Hucheng> anyone can explain this? thanks in advance. 12:31:34 <pmd> yes. read the w3c xml spec, then the xml package source code. 12:31:54 asarch [~asarch@189.188.154.229] has joined #scheme 12:32:33 <pmd> well, no 12:32:59 <Hucheng> don't understand. 12:33:03 <pmd> the (require xml), where is that? 12:33:10 <pmd> where's the source code of that package? 12:33:16 <Hucheng> from plt scheme 12:33:29 <sjamaan> Hucheng: It helps if you state that up front 12:34:12 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:35:29 <Daemmerung> Hucheng: which version of PLT are you using? And on what platform? O 12:35:36 <Daemmerung> I'll try to repro 12:35:52 <Hucheng> PLT 4.2.5 12:36:02 <Hucheng> On windows XP 12:38:48 -!- Hucheng [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:03 <mario-goulart> Blue screen 12:40:15 <Daemmerung> Indeed, I can repro. No, I cannot explain. (My xml experience is limited to processing antfiles.) 12:40:21 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@75-119-244-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:56 <Daemmerung> Next time, use lisppaste-- doesn't flood the channel, and expedites others using your output. 12:41:25 <Daemmerung> Try the mailing list. 12:41:39 <mario-goulart> Daemmerung: I guess Hucheng is not among us anymore. 12:42:56 <Daemmerung> That's my cue for coffee, then. 12:49:24 Hucheng [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has joined #scheme 12:58:05 -!- Hucheng [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:02:04 jar286 [~jar@dhcp-18-111-5-137.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 13:05:01 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.154.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:13 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:11:42 ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:14 HG` [~HG@xdslev198.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:18:17 Hucheng_ [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has joined #scheme 13:21:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 13:21:36 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 13:21:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:05 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:24:05 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:24:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 13:26:47 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:27:43 -!- ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:32:53 <Daemmerung> Hucheng_: I saw your post to plt-scheme. It looks like the square brackets in your sample has confused the xml module's cdata parser. 13:36:22 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:36:30 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:40:31 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:43:53 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:44:39 <Hucheng_> cdata should not parsed according to xml spec. 13:45:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:17 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 13:48:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.11] has joined #scheme 13:50:22 <Daemmerung> Bugs should not exist, either, and yet they do! Indeed, I believe that you have found one. I am examining the responsible code. 13:50:53 <mario-goulart> Daemmerung: Jay just answered. It seems that he fixed the code. 13:51:34 <Daemmerung> Jay would certainly know the code better than I. No shame that he beat me to it. 13:51:44 <mario-goulart> :-) 13:51:45 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:47 <Daemmerung> yay Jay 13:52:13 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:54:41 -!- Hucheng_ [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:58 xwl [~user@114.250.51.38] has joined #scheme 13:55:16 Hucheng_ [~Hucheng@222.71.79.11] has joined #scheme 14:00:50 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:37 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 14:02:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:30 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 14:12:11 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:37 -!- jar286 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20:21:23 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-53-118.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:45 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-38-34.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:57 -!- Philonous [~uart14@dslb-088-075-029-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:09 powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #scheme 20:46:31 <powerje> Is apply a special form in Scheme? a la cond, quote, and define? 20:48:38 schmir [~schmir@p54A90669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:49:02 <jonrafkind> in plt its just a function 20:51:00 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-42-82-255-95-164.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 20:51:19 <powerje> I thought functions always evaluate its arguments, so I'm confused as to how Scheme handles passing functions as parameters 20:51:29 <powerje> like in Lisp one must use #' to ensure it is not evaluated 20:53:46 <Daemmerung> A procedure is a value just like any other value. Apply is no different from any other higher-order procedure in its handling of procedure values. Compare map. 20:54:11 <Daemmerung> r5rs map 20:54:11 <specbot> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_558 20:54:11 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5g3njv 20:54:52 <powerje> Thank you 20:54:54 <jonrafkind> (define apply (lambda x ..something..)) I'm not sure exactly what ..something.. is but that would be a reasonable attempt at an apply implementation 20:55:31 <jonrafkind> well probably more like (define apply (lambda (f . args) ..something.. ) 20:59:41 <chandler> powerje: That's not what #' does. 20:59:58 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:00:01 <chandler> #'foo is definitely evaluated in Common Lisp. 21:00:46 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:01:05 <powerje> I thought it prevented it from being evaluated before it was sent to whatever function was taking it as a parameter? 21:01:33 <chandler> ... as I said, no, that's not what it does. 21:02:03 <jonrafkind> maybe an explanation of what it does is more useful than saying what it doesnt 21:02:04 <chandler> #'foo - which is reader syntax for (FUNCTION FOO) - means that the binding of FOO should be resolved in the function namespace. 21:02:16 <powerje> Ah okay 21:02:31 <powerje> And Scheme doesn't have separate name spaces, so does not have to worry about that? 21:02:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-213.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:02:39 <chandler> That's correct. 21:03:16 <powerje> Thank you 21:03:25 <chandler> But `apply' works the same way in both Scheme and Common Lisp (modulo global aspects of the language that are different). 21:03:40 <chandler> It's an ordinary function in both. 21:08:01 choas [~lars@p5B0DC2E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:10:28 -!- powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: powerje] 21:13:18 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:20 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:16:34 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:19:56 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 21:20:40 turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:22:22 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:25:41 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: i want to be formal but i'm here to party] 21:26:57 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:00 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-213.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:15 fschwidom [~fschwidom@p5B26ACC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:33:43 -!- karljoh [fooki@h-73-135.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:52:59 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:55:16 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:07 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:57:41 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@232-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 21:58:28 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:59:41 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:30 -!- mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:09 haole [~ivan@187.23.86.52] has joined #scheme 22:20:03 <haole> hello... i would like to ask for an opinion... i'm developing a procedure that applies a series of procedures to some data, but each one of those procedures can be chosen from a "database" of procedures... like a production line... however, i'm getting procedures with an huge amount of parameters, and that's geting ankward... i was thinking of doing something like procedures to bind a procedure to this "production line", but that doesn't sound much lispsh... do 22:20:03 <haole> es anyone have a suggestion for me? 22:20:08 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: .] 22:21:09 <haole> s/i'm getting procedures with an/my procedure is getting 22:23:30 kuribas [~user@d54C4335C.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 22:25:38 <turbofail> haole: paste? 22:26:13 <haole> turbofail: the code is almost 200 lines of code... i'm gonna make a test case, but will take a moment... ok? 22:26:17 <turbofail> ok 22:28:16 samth [~samth@nat/google/x-snzadlkttbysmavv] has joined #scheme 22:29:17 mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:54 <lisppaste> haole pasted "production line" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100483 22:33:02 <haole> turbofail: there 22:33:42 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 22:33:48 <haole> the awkwardness comes when i need to do recursion with those procedures... i get an almost unreadable code 22:33:56 <haole> i'm a begginer with scheme, btw 22:35:57 <mmc> I would use "fold" to apply the list of functions/transforms 22:38:01 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:38:29 <turbofail> haole: you can make a function take an arbitrary number of arguments 22:38:49 <turbofail> i.e. (define (production-line . transforms) ...) 22:39:12 <turbofail> after that, you can do what mmc suggested 22:39:28 -!- Thomas [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:03 <haole> in fact, i'm using fold... my testcase isn't... :D 22:40:21 <haole> the problem is the number of arguments passed in a possible recursion of the main procedure... 22:40:46 <haole> if i pass to it 10 transforms, i will have to pass 10 arguments on each iteration... the code gets bloated, i think 22:41:09 <turbofail> well you can make it just take a fixed list argument too 22:41:10 <mmc> you should pass a list 22:41:12 <haole> the second solution in my testcase was based on a code to use gnuplot within plt-scheme, found in plt-planet 22:41:26 <turbofail> and just pass along the list with every recursion 22:41:54 <haole> turbofail: that might work... but what do you think about the second solution? are there any drawbacks to work that way? 22:42:15 <turbofail> well, the list solution is simpler 22:42:41 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:47 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:29 <haole> ok... thanks guys 22:43:32 -!- haole [~ivan@187.23.86.52] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:46:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:27 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:28 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 22:55:39 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DC2E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:56:40 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C4335C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:02:18 -!- kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!] 23:06:51 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:10:35 -!- samth [~samth@nat/google/x-snzadlkttbysmavv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:17 <Daemmerung> pass a list, pass an aggregate structure, use fluids/parameters/dynamic binding. If fold or for-each are too uniform for your production line, consider srfi-2's and-let*. 23:12:58 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:15:19 scheibo [~scheibo@dsl-173-206-227-68.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 23:17:24 kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:46 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-254-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:28:31 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:29:04 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:29:21 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:30:57 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:33:26 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:38:43 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:39:36 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:45:44 jonphilpott [~user@38.98.50.98] has joined #scheme 23:46:27 <jonphilpott> does anyone know how i can run mred with no X running? I need to use some of the gui classes for generating images. 23:46:41 <jonphilpott> unless anyone knows of using the image classes without mred :( 23:47:29 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:48:09 <turbofail> i think there's a -z option or something 23:48:44 <jonphilpott> that seems to tell not to open a window, but it still barfs for some reason. 23:49:00 <turbofail> ah... -Z 23:49:16 <jonphilpott> $ mred -Z 23:49:16 <jonphilpott> DISPLAY environment variable not set and no -display argument 23:49:16 <jonphilpott> 23:49:42 <jonphilpott> setting display to a dummy value doesnt work either. 23:49:53 <turbofail> hm... well, -Z claims to be the --nogui option 23:50:45 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:18 <ski> eli might know, were he present .. 23:51:27 <jonphilpott> grmbl :) 23:51:34 <turbofail> or maybe my version is old and decrepit 23:51:41 <turbofail> i think that's the case 23:52:14 <jonphilpott> lol even mred --help bitches about DISPLAY not being set. 23:52:46 <turbofail> maybe -n? 23:53:04 <jonphilpott> same 23:53:09 <turbofail> eh 23:54:01 <jonphilpott> jon$ mred -n 23:54:01 <jonphilpott> DISPLAY environment variable not set and no -display argument 23:54:19 <jonphilpott> i suspect this is happening when the X libraries initialise. 23:56:04 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:57:03 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:58:22 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-84-184.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:00 <sladegen> jonphilpott: can't you load "image" libraries from within mzscheme? 23:59:30 proq` [~user@173-164-85-86-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:36 <turbofail> yeah, i was about to suggest that 23:59:38 <sladegen> that's just a wild guess, since i haven't worked with them ever. 23:59:41 <jonphilpott> according to the docs they are part of scheme/gui 23:59:44 <turbofail> (require wxme/image) seems to work 23:59:46 <jonphilpott> which won't load withotu mred.