00:01:00 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:02 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:46 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.228.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:02:51 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:04:23 -!- m4nic [~m4nic@ip252-55-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:13 bremner [~bremner@pivot.cs.unb.ca] has joined #scheme 00:10:15 -!- dmoerner [~dmr@90-14.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:35 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:13:18 ziggurat [~quassel@173.74.42.166] has joined #scheme 00:15:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 00:15:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:17:20 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:18:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.195] has joined #scheme 00:21:24 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:28:47 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 00:29:02 _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 00:31:39 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:46 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:37 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:38:21 jcowan, the raising/handling machinery isn't fine either. I think you forwarded a message from me on that subject to the r6rs-authors mailing list. 00:38:46 Ahoy Riastradh. What brings you to our fair shores? 00:39:06 I overheard comments from afar about the R6RS condition system, and about part of it being `fine'. 00:41:41 doc_who [~doc_who@c-98-231-201-176.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:09 Riastradh: please enlighten me - the only complaint I can think of wrt to the R6RS condition system is that the exception hierarchy seems a little over-engineered 00:46:11 It also lacks restarts but those can be implemented with call/cc. 00:46:28 The signalling/handling machinery loses; there's no way to distinguish `I don't want to handle this condition' from `I am reporting another condition (because I have a bug, for example)' in a condition handler. This also causes stack space to accumulate as the buck is passed up. 00:47:24 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:47:25 Oh, that too: it pretends to have restarts, but not in any very useful sense -- namely, there is a procedure called RAISE-CONTINUABLE or something. 00:48:29 Riastradh: Well, that's as good a reason as any to drop by. 00:49:34 Oh, it also lacks required declarations of every condition type a lambda may throw, which is not enterprise-friendly. 00:49:34 I don't know how one could set out to design a condition system and wind up with the R6RS's system. It seems to me to be bereft of the insight of existing succesful condition systems. 00:49:51 Why, yes, in fact, I was just about to mention that! 00:50:41 Clearly we need Guy Steele back to put some enterprise sense into the new report. 00:50:53 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:26 Riastradh: Your restart.text proposal seems large for WG1. I would ideally like to be able to specify basic conditions in WG1 with an optional restart extension in WG2. 01:00:13 So will Scheme be divided in two standards, WG1 and WG2? 01:00:23 rudybot: eval (raise-continuable 'Lazarus) 01:00:26 sladegen: your sandbox is ready 01:00:26 sladegen: error: reference to undefined identifier: raise-continuable 01:00:30 That's the current theory, Danmaku... 01:01:07 (although WG1 and WG2 are just the committees^Wworking groups to write the standards, whose nicknames are currently Thing One and Thing Two, if I'm not too out of date) 01:01:15 Danmaku: WG2 will be a superset of WG1 - it will run any WG1 app correctly. 01:01:21 it's the racket of the century... 01:01:42 What happens to r7rs? 01:02:01 With R7RS, the joke is stretched to the breaking point, and the name vanishes. 01:02:57 why... thing one could be called R(1/7)RS... 01:03:07 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:04:19 heh 01:06:12 mastertogo [~Bob@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:16 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:19:57 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:50 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #scheme 01:21:08 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:21:35 Reading the WG1 mailing list is highlight fascinating, but as an outsider I'm driven to wonder if, given the vast number of implementations, the huge ground they cover in terms of specialties, ... 01:22:28 k0rn [~k0rn@38-247.200-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:22:54 ... the number of very intelligent and evidently also very opinionated people in WG1, a fair number of whom are also implementors who can simply implement what doesn't become part of the standard anyway, is the chance of coming up with something that the very large majority of them all agree with near zero? 01:23:24 metasyntax`: that's why we're not requiring 100% aggreement 01:23:29 s/highlight/highly/ 01:25:09 Is work being done to agree on some kind of FFI system for either WG1/2? 01:25:51 foof: Sure, 100% is a statistical impossibility, but even if say 66% is sufficient for one subject, can you really get 66% over and over again on every issue to the point of keeping enough people engaged that most won't leave when they are in the 33% for their pet issue. 01:26:22 (Admittedly, playing the devil's advocate, but to me it seems difficult to design "by committee" as it were.) 01:28:14 metasyntax`: one thing we're trying is competitive proposals with preferential voting 01:29:06 so as long as >66% (or whatever) of people would prefer _any_ of the solutions to a problem than nothing at all, one of the proposals will be accepted 01:30:22 That doesn't seem quite right, but maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement of the scenario. 01:30:28 perhaps put in the standard that given feature will be required to behave given % of the vote one way and another % of time another way... sort of statistically fuzzy quantum computing wonderland... 01:30:34 Good night. 01:30:38 -!- Danmaku [dmk@83.231.23.188] has quit [] 01:30:53 *sladegen* will hand himself to psychiatric authorities voluntarly. 01:30:55 If "none" is a valid preference, and it's the second choice for all voters and the first choice results are inconclusive, shouldn't "none" be the winning choice? 01:31:35 So if there are 99 solutions, and 2 members vote for one common solution, and the rest of the members each votes for his own solution, then the one with 2 votes wins? 01:32:17 Riastradh: no, the 66% majority over the status quo (R5RS) is still required 01:32:40 Riastradh: That's a plurality system, not a preference voting system. 01:32:43 Oh, OK. 01:32:50 foof: Where does this number come from? 01:33:11 Why not just throw the R5RS (aka "nothing at all") in as an option, and let the voters sort it out themselves? 01:33:19 if 66 people prefer A to R5RS, and 65 people prefer B to R5RS, then A will be accepted 01:33:26 (assuming possible overlap) 01:33:46 chandler, OK. I am not familiar with many voting systems (although I know there is a plethora of them, and a theorem stating something along the lines of A, B, C -- pick two, for some desirable properties A, B, and C); I was just trying to understand precisely what foof said. 01:33:47 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:09 arrow's theorem 01:34:32 or the fancier named "Arrow's impossibility theorem" 01:35:23 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SampleVoteYakHandler 01:35:45 *sladegen* wonders when computer scientists will follow suite of philosophers and admit monolithic systems an impossibility. 01:38:25 chandler: jcowan disagrees with the minimum 66% (whose exact # is as yet undecided) 01:38:42 I think for WG2 there should be no such minimum. 01:38:44 *jcowan* believes in majority rule, that's why. 01:39:35 jcowan: please don't reduce the entire issue to one of quaint, one-line slogans, it's far more complicated 01:39:38 And what is your definition of "majority rule"? :-) 01:40:17 I think for WG1 we have a number of reasons to make it harder to add new features. 01:41:00 1) the charter specifically asks us to make a "minimum" language suitable for education and embedding 01:41:22 chandler: What is passed by a majority of the legal votes cast (with certain exceptions) is adopted as the view of the group voting. 01:42:04 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-76-111.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 01:42:20 So voting R5RS means if it's in R5RS then don't change it, and if not then don't add it? 01:42:40 2) this is just one standard in a continuum, and it's harder to remove features than to add new ones, so we need to be careful to avoid gradual bloat in the language 01:43:09 -!- cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:48 foof: I'm not sure the supermajority requirement will help with this. It's incumbent upon the members to hold to these requirements, and if a majority clearly prefers some particular alternative to R5RS, then clearly they have decided that the benefits outweigh the costs. 01:44:09 3) some votes are not about adding new features, but reversing previous decisions. we could see-saw back and forth for years on issues like case-sensitivity if a mere 51% were needed to change it - raising the bar makes this less likely. 01:46:26 chandler: not all members seem to agree with the charter, not all agree what "small" means, and if 49% of the committee thinks that an issue isn't ready for standardization i think that's cause for concern 01:47:44 Again, as a total outsider I humble myself first, but to address #3 one could require more votes to remove a feature than to add it; this prioritizes backwards compatibility while enabling upward mobility. For sure the whole idea of voting is a sticky situation. 01:48:59 copumpkin_ [~copumpkin@2002:421f:cb07:1234:21f:5bff:fe84:6284] has joined #scheme 01:49:48 also bear in mind that up through R5RS 100% was required 01:50:56 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-66-31-203-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:57 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 01:53:06 -!- curi [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:56:14 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:41 metasyntax`: that's a reasonable suggestion 01:58:09 That would fall afoul of the rhetoric about adding features and removing, &c... 01:59:47 Riastradh: it would merely formalize the fact that we're already bound in spirit to be reluctant to remove features, as the charter requires R5RS compatibility 02:01:09 asarch [~asarch@187.132.113.25] has joined #scheme 02:01:24 ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has joined #scheme 02:03:35 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:04:18 jcowan: Think of it this way - initially there were 3 supports of fexprs in the group. If we assume 12 active voters, a majority would only require them to convince 3 other people fexprs were a good idea, enough to just check off in their ballot "basic fexprs > none at all." 02:05:16 That makes it way too easy to get totally insane stuff into the language. 02:05:59 That's the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night. That's why I want a >50% majority. 02:07:36 foof: 4 people. 02:07:41 50% isn't a majority. 02:08:22 bpalmer: OK, assume 11 active voters (I'm not really sure who's active at this point) 02:08:29 Are there any requirements that any proposal have a practical implementation before it may be accepted? 02:08:34 yes 02:08:55 but implementing fexprs in a tree interpreter is actually easy 02:09:56 I know. That's why I said `practical', not `reference' or `toy'. 02:10:26 I think that if seven people could be gotten to not only believe in fexprs, but believe they should be added to THing One, then we'd get the Thing One we deserved. 02:10:50 ktzqbp_ [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has joined #scheme 02:12:16 So how the heck is copying and pasting supposed to work in X11? I have never been able to figure this out. 02:12:23 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has joined #scheme 02:12:46 you mark and paste... 02:13:46 why introduce a third step of copying... 02:14:11 -!- ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:17 incubot: JFK deserved death. 02:14:19 Then again, maybe the reason he doesn't open source it is that the reputation isn't deserved and he doesn't want people to find out how mediocre Chez really is :) 02:14:53 Because I often select text that I have no intent of pasting anywhere, and with which I don't want to clobber the clipboard. (There is something called a `clipboard' in X, right? There are also primary and secondary selections, or something...) 02:15:04 (s/select/mark/1, if you wish) 02:16:01 -!- aspect [~aspect@64.22.124.11] has left #scheme 02:16:04 *sladegen* runs with xclipboard permanently open. handy for lots of notes piling up... 02:16:12 In fact, foof, there were 22 members originally. Twelve fexpr-believers would be IMHO beyond belief. 02:16:40 There's only one accessible via typical middle-click paste, but toolkits implement their own clipboards usually (e.g. GTK has it's own clipboard which it copies to the X clipboard, so C-c clobbers the X clipboard, but select something afterwards and C-v will still paste the GTK clipboard). 02:16:44 jcowan: they don't have to be pro-fexpr 02:17:07 Riastradh: At least I think, that's how it usually seems to work. 02:17:12 Granted, logrolling (I'll vote for yours if you vote for mine) would be a possibility. 02:17:18 I copied something to the X clipboard, and neither Firefox nor some random Gtk+ application seems to believe that there is anything to paste. 02:17:19 they just have to think "these other guys have reasoned it out, it seems ok, i'll rank it > nothing" 02:17:34 yeah, those heathen toolkits and their windos blasphemy. 02:17:39 That's true in any case. 02:17:40 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:17:46 There is no GTK clipboard distinct from the X clipboard. 02:18:17 dmoerner [~dmr@90-14.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 02:18:29 (Also, C-v scrolls up by a page. It doesn't paste!) 02:18:48 You can also paste with Shift-Ins 02:19:04 (true paste from the clipboard, not paste-the-selection) 02:19:18 -!- dmoerner [~dmr@90-14.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:19:43 Also, what is this middle mouse button? I'm dimly familiar with the concept of a right mouse button -- although I'm not sure what function it serves that wouldn't have been served by a modified mouse button -- but not with a middle one, which is making itself scarce on this laptop. 02:19:44 Ctrl+Ins will copy to the clipboard, and Ctrl+Del will paste to the clipboard. These three will often work when ^X, ^C, ^V are preempted. 02:19:58 Left+Right generally emulates middle. 02:20:03 cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:20:05 jcowan: Really? I can C-c something in Firefox, C-v it into gedit, highlight some text, middle-click it into gedit, then C-v the first text into gedit. 02:20:24 Which seems to be two different clipboards, but maybe it's just dark magick. 02:20:39 Not two clipboards, but a clipboard distinct from the selection. 02:20:56 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:21:23 The "something in firefox" went into the clipboard and stayed there. When you selected the "some text", you could paste that with middle-click, but selection does not disturb the clipboard, so you can still paste from it. 02:21:40 We need a term other than "paste" for middle-click. 02:21:59 I see, I suppose "X11 clipboard" is bad terminology on my part then. 02:22:00 copy? 02:22:12 *sladegen* feels enlightened... 02:22:33 Maybe "yank" if it weren't already somewhat overloaded. :-) 02:22:39 Cut, copy, and paste are the terminology appropriate to the clipboard. We need something distinct for "copy the selection and paste it", like "duplicate" 02:22:49 yoke with reality... 02:23:21 triplicate! 02:23:35 Or quadruplicate, if you middle click in three different places. 02:23:40 `Copy selection to clipboard', `copy selection to point', `paste clipboard to point'. 02:24:15 *sladegen* was about to say stop thinking in bolean logic... 02:24:17 And "copy selection to clipboard and delete selection", commonly spelled "cut". 02:24:23 Now how do I fix all the broken text fields that don't have Emacs key bindings? 02:24:48 Sometimes it's a setting, notably in Firefox. 02:24:58 (A subset of Emacs, that is.) 02:25:14 Or I could reply "Whose Emacs bindings? Yours or RMS's?" 02:25:21 go to a crowded place, soak yourself with gasoline and let it rip. 02:25:28 Well, yes, I mean the basic standard Emacs key bindings, such as character and word motion commands, the kill ring, &c. 02:26:35 C-b should move backward by a character, not switch to a bold type face (as it does in this random application in front of me). 02:26:40 Cut buffers and ring buffers, I think. 02:27:40 Highlighting something in X causes it to become the "primary selection". 02:27:59 Middle-click pastes the primary selection. 02:28:12 It's orthogonal to any clipboard functionality, and causes considerable confusion. 02:28:18 (Is there a secondary selection?) 02:28:36 Riastradh: yes, and it's called the clipboard. 02:28:58 you can find it in the selection monad if you look really hard. 02:29:08 No, the clipboard is not the secondary selection. Most apps don't implement a secondary selection. 02:29:27 I know there's a secondary selection in Interlisp... 02:29:54 That reflects Xerox-style windowing, in which a selected area is not necessarily related to point. 02:30:19 i was kidding ;) 02:30:19 So you'd select something, click somewhere else, and use the Copy key to copy something to somewhere. 02:30:43 Raskin's The Humane Interface had some nice ideas regarding multiple selections. 02:30:44 Of course, it helped to have a D-series machine keyboard. 02:30:48 I think Interlisp may have had a tertiary selection too, but I don't remember now. 02:31:23 (The multiple selections are used in the structure editor to select different parts of the structure in different ways for complex structural edit operations.) 02:31:35 In Sam, point *is* the selection, which is yet a third style of operation. That is, "." means the whole of the selected region from just before the first selected character to just after the last one. 02:32:20 http://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html 02:32:38 Let's see whether I can copy and paste that URI to Firefox! 02:32:54 One thing I definitely don't miss about linux is that. 02:32:56 bah. In my day, we re-typed URIs 02:32:57 Uh...C-Ins inserted a caret into my terminal (rxvt-unicode). 02:33:07 use xclipboard for complex structural operations... 02:33:08 And that. 02:33:14 and cut buffers are sort of cute, in a way. 02:33:53 Selecting it and middle-clicking worked, though. 02:34:21 Note the implication lurking in the X clipboard scheme about what happens when the clipboard selection owner quits. 02:34:22 sladegen: When I try to run xclipboard, it tells me another clipboard app is running. 02:34:27 It hurts me deeply that X has had a ton of nearly perfect infrastructure in place for cutting and pasting built into it for thirty years now, and nobody ever uses it. Nobody even knows it's there. 02:34:30 I have no idea if modern desktop environments have worked around this, or if that's still broken. 02:34:53 chandler: That's up to the app; it can copy the selection into X or not. 02:34:55 And as a result, it's 2010 and you still can't cut and paste anything more complicated than 7-bit ascii. 02:35:01 Not reliably, at least. 02:35:07 mhoye: very few people use X remotely, either, so a lot of the tradeoffs it made for minimizing communication between the server and client are wasted. 02:35:15 Very true. 02:35:26 It's 2010. Does X work reliably yet? (No.) 02:35:30 jcowan: well, find klipboard or glibboard or whatever... i run straight awesomewm. 02:35:33 Multiseat X stopped working sometime in 2005, I think, and hasn't been back. 02:35:46 Really? I use X remotely all the time. 02:35:54 X works very reliably. Not all the infrastructure on it does or ever will. 02:36:40 Riastradh, I have an Aunt Tillie, and you're not Aunt Tillie. 02:37:13 really, OS X's scrapping the whole thing wasn't the worst decision Apple ever made. 02:37:14 jcowan, yes, but I am as much an Aunt Tillie to X as your Aunt Tillie is to computers in general. 02:37:18 Something tells me that you haven't been the victim of relentless basic driver infrastructure churn recently. Regardless, I don't really count X as working if all it's doing is wasting memory and hosting programs that can't follow the zillion-page specifications properly well enough to interoperate sensibly. 02:37:46 *mhoye* cries. 02:38:20 In my naive youth, I can remember thinking that drivers in Linux would just keep working, because they were open source. 02:38:28 Boy, did I call that one wrong. 02:38:53 It certainly seemed that way when hardware was not disposable. 02:39:09 But even the old stuff sometimes just dies. 02:40:05 Yes, all the kernel (or X or ALSA/audio flavor of the week) hackers have moved on to the latest and greatest thing for the next fifteen minutes or so. 02:40:15 chandler: X is tiny compared to Gnome/KDE 02:40:37 Which neatly demonstrates the seriousness of the disease. 02:40:38 EvilWM is a window manager in 23k. 02:40:58 chandler: What's this month's ground-up audio-infrastructure rewrite called? 02:41:09 I've lost track. 02:41:20 At least they're trying to move power and wireless management out of X. 02:41:21 photon, baby! 02:41:36 Photon? Seriously? 02:41:44 That's its name? 02:41:47 I don't know. I mentally translate it to "it's 2010 and playing multiple sounds at once from arbitrary programs still doesn't always work". 02:41:47 it's gonna be awesome... lol. 02:42:05 They named a sound project after a light particle? 02:42:15 light's a wave 02:42:19 I think it's actually Phonon, and I believe that's supposed to be the KDE/Qt equivalent of Gstreamer. 02:42:21 *bpalmer* looks around shiftily 02:42:25 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:42:38 mhoye: heh, seriously i don't care. it's some new kde "media" infrastructure... 02:42:40 *mhoye* cries some more. 02:43:02 The future is going to look exactly like Stallman predicted if the alternative is Linux. 02:43:30 phonon... my bad, only shows how much i care... 02:43:42 The future is actually going to be cellphones and dedicated devices. 02:44:01 bpalmer: Yeah, by then it might even be the year of linux on the desktop. 02:44:09 Fussing about what's on the desktop is like debating trends in battleships when aircraft carriers are on the horizon. 02:44:46 chromeos to rule your ibms... 02:45:11 Your future may be, bpalmer, but there remain people who want powerful, general-purpose laptops and workstations. 02:45:56 A tale of two operating systems: I recently installed both Ubuntu Lucid (32-bit) and Haiku R1 Alpha 2 (only 32-bit available, natch) in virtual machines. On the Lucid VM, top reports that 317MB is used for a basic GNOME desktop with default settings. For Haiku, the "About" box reports 63MB in use. 02:46:43 Riastradh: unfortunately they are a relative minority, so the price of general purpose laptops may go up 02:47:01 I don't think so. 02:47:06 Processing power will always be cheap. 02:47:08 Fred Brooks made similar remarks, chandler, about TOPS-10 vs. OS/360. 02:47:15 (or rather, vice versa) 02:47:24 chandler: how is Haiku coming along? 02:47:27 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:47 I find that difficult to believe. Commodity laptops are cheap for a very good reason. Unless you are Apple and can guarantee millions of unit sales for your special-purpose appliance, it's very difficult to beat the standard x86 PC's economies of scale. 02:47:55 chandler, is Haiku usable these days? Would it conceivably be worth my while to port Scheme and Edwin to it and start using it for day-to-day work? 02:48:05 jcowan: Not having used either system, I can't begin to comment. 02:48:25 chandler: apples to oranges - compare Haiku to a vanilla X server running a minimal WM 02:48:37 (I don't really know anything about it except that it hung shortly after launching when I booted it into Qemu a year or two ago.) 02:48:59 *mhoye* goes to sleep crying about free software. 02:49:04 Riastradh: Well, it seems to have stopped randomly crashing. The video is still awfully slow in VMware, but I believe that's because there's no accelerated video driver for the virtual graphics adapter. 02:49:44 foof, well, a vanilla X server and a minimal WM are not very useful points of comparison either unless you also start running Firefox and some random Gtk+ application and some random Qt application and all the necessary libraries and dbus cruft and whatnot to support them. 02:49:48 chandler: He was arguing that OS/360, although it consumed an order of magnitude more resources than TOPS-10, also provided a quantitatively similar amount of function to its user. 02:49:50 foof: It wasn't meant purely as an indictment of X, but of the whole thing. 02:50:39 Riastradh: fair enough, but you should choose a set of applications and run them all on both machines then 02:50:58 Riastradh: There is some missing functionality that would prevent me from having a go of it as a primary operating system on real hardware, but that's mostly because the hardware I would run it on would be a laptop and I'd want WPA2 support, which isn't yet present. 02:50:59 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:51:32 *foof* is also wary of any OS written in C++ 02:51:57 chandler, well, how about the two basic standards of computing today -- POSIX and a web browser? 02:52:33 timj_ [~timj@e176196052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:52:50 I've no idea what level of POSIX conformance it provides. It's based on glibc, so it has to be better than BeOS. The browser is a recent addition and is WebKit based. It seems to be a bit pokey, but that might be down to the lack of accelerated video again. 02:53:13 (I wish my tongue could be more firmly in cheek in that question...) 02:53:23 -!- k0rn [~k0rn@38-247.200-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:37 I read scare quotes around "standards" there, but otherwise parsed it as a serious question. 02:54:00 It was a serious question, and I am afraid it *is* a serious state of affairs, ridiculous as that is. 02:54:01 *foof* is wary of anything using glibc 02:54:07 _rata_ [~rata@pc-233-130-161-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:11 foof: I'm as wary as I would be of one written in C. Going overboard on C++ can produce an unmaintainable disaster, but it's also far too easy to get to such a disaster in plain C. 02:54:15 <_rata_> hi 02:54:37 Haiku is GPL'd, right? 02:54:43 Most of the code is MIT licensed, I believe. 02:54:54 OK. GPL-compatible free software, in any case? 02:54:54 They've made a point of using drivers from FreeBSD instead of Linux for this reason. 02:55:01 Yes, that's correct. 02:55:13 How's sound? 02:55:29 <_rata_> does anyone here use Haiku? 02:55:38 It doesn't work in VMware. The infrastructure is fundamentally sound. (No, I didn't intend that.) 02:56:02 _rata_, chandler had mentioned it a few minutes before you walked in, comparing the memory footprint of Haiku's window system to that of a typical X environment today. 02:56:08 The strangely-named Scheme / Released four summers ago / Its name eludes me 02:56:15 -!- timj [~timj@e176203085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:37 <_rata_> Riastradh, ah ok... and how is it? 02:56:46 _rata_, that's what I'm asking chandler about! 02:56:51 <_rata_> ok :) 02:57:17 chandler: would you be able to compare Haiku running a browser vs. X+minimal-wm+comparable-browser? 02:57:29 ...although it sounds as though I'm probably better off doing my own research, which I think I shall do before I go on with questions abour robustness and file system support. 02:58:07 `about' 02:58:16 and is the haiku "about" box reporting the same thing? 02:59:24 I suppose I should clarify that I was an avid and dedicated user of BeOS, so my evaluation of Haiku is mostly going to be about how it measures up to the original. To that I would say it has much better support for modern hardware, a much better (although still work-in-progress) browser, and otherwise seems to be measuring up nicely. 02:59:50 This software's version / Four point twenty-three slash six / Don't expect support 03:00:09 At least it's not twenty-seven B stroke six. 03:00:29 Nobody knows where to find one of those anyway. 03:00:44 Probably buried under a pile of cover sheets for TPS reports. 03:00:44 foof: I'm fairly certain it's reporting resident memory used by the kernel and processes; that's what the BeOS about box always did. I can't compare a minimal Linux setup as I don't have one on hand. 03:01:51 foof: It was a bit of a specious comparison, I'd admit, primarily designed to point out the absurdity of the "modern" Linux desktop. 03:02:16 X-server weights 150MB here... 30 days of uptime... 03:02:27 Absurdly awesome. Just think of how much more you can do with it than you could do on a computer 15 years ago. 03:03:17 foof, I have X.org running on NetBSD right now with a few rxvt-unicode, Firefox, a couple Edwin instances (basically terminals), xclock, xconsole, and pidgin. top reports 97M SIZE and 49M RES (which I believe are the amount of allocated address space and the amount of resident address space, respectively). So it's not that bad, except that Firefox and pidgin are slow and have horrible interfaces. 03:03:30 Oh, I forgot to say that the window manager is openbox. 03:03:44 ...which is using another ~10 MB memory (almost all resident). 03:04:17 <_rata_> chandler, which OS do you use? (you mentioned something about a virtual machine) 03:05:08 I'm not monogamous. This particular computer is running Windows 7 as the host, and I have the aforementioned Ubuntu Lucid and Haiku VMs open at the moment. 03:05:51 I will admit that I have been using OS X less and less of late, which I suppose probably makes "Windows 7, with assorted things via virtualization" a fair distillation. 03:07:31 Apropos of Mac OS X, do you folks know whether there's anything runnable on GNU/Linux or NetBSD or similar that can read Time Machine backups or Apple keychains? 03:07:59 time machine backups are just directory hierarchies 03:08:05 Not exactly, foof. 03:08:52 They're slightly funny directory hierarchies. I don't know the exact nature of the funniness, but I do know that directory hard links (an HFS+ peculiarity) are involved, and that NetBSD's HFS+ implementation reads a lot of what should be directories as empty files. 03:09:34 (A disk failure has recently expedited my intent to transition away from Mac OS X.) 03:12:59 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:39 *jcowan* starts downloading Haiku, just to see. 03:14:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:35 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:26 <_rata_> is there a Haskell's cycle equivalent in Scheme? 03:20:02 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 03:20:29 Haskell's cycle? 03:20:36 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 03:21:07 A procedure that transforms a list into a lazy circular list, I believe. 03:21:15 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:58 Well, no, into a lazy infinite list, for which there is no direct analogue in Scheme, although a strict circular list is an approximate analogue. 03:22:33 (Circular lists do not exist in Haskell, because the notion of object identity does not exist in Haskell.) 03:25:51 A lazy infinite list with a particular property that it delivers a finite number of elements over and over, however. 03:25:58 So calling it "circular" has some merit. 03:26:06 OK. 03:26:14 Anyway, no, there's no standard procedure to do that. 03:26:29 The closest is SRFI 1's CIRCULAR-LIST procedure, but it takes an arbitrary number of arguments, rather than a single list argument. 03:28:19 <_rata_> ok 03:28:29 However, there's an easy implementation in terms of LIST-COPY (if you don't want to destroy the input list), LAST-PAIR, and SET-CDR!, left as an exercise for the reader. 03:33:20 chandler, by the way, does Haiku have an X server? 03:33:32 Not as far as I'm aware, no. 03:34:11 There used to be a fairly horrible one for BeOS. It *might* still run, but I doubt it. 03:42:02 -!- ktzqbp_ [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:05 Does Haiku's web browser deal with TLS client x.509 credentials? 03:43:23 (I know, I know, I ought just to try it myself.) 03:44:43 Heh. I highly doubt it. Haiku still deserves its "Alpha 2" status, even if it has stopped crashing for me. 03:45:49 OK. I have yet to find a web browser that deals with them reasonable -- Firefox *almost* did, until 3.6 or whatever was released when they introduced a brain-damaged UI misfeature concerning client authentication. 03:47:45 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:49:24 Oh, neat. The POSIX emulation must not be all that bad -- pkgsrc apparently runs (to some degree at least) on Haiku. 03:50:43 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:42 Yes, it's not as much of a from-scratch system as BeOS was. 03:53:05 mmadia [~mmadia@pool-173-63-184-196.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:53:15 DraX [~alexbl@xmms2/developer/DraX] has joined #scheme 03:54:01 reinforcements from the Haiku squad have arrived :P 03:55:33 It doesn't seem like there's a recent Emacs port, unfortunately. 03:55:47 vim is present and accounted for, even in gvim form. 03:55:57 there is a 23.1.50 port but without dumping or gui 03:56:12 i build against the master in the git mirror 03:56:14 I wonder how hard it would be to port MIT Scheme and Edwin. 03:56:27 chicken is ported and fully functional 03:56:29 ...and, if ported, how stable the port would be. 03:56:49 i've been sort of trying to do gui emacs, but it's not exactly obvious how 03:57:08 When I last looked some time ago, Haiku did not support anonymous mmap()s. Does MIT Scheme depend on this? I don't recall. 03:57:08 it's a mix of lisp symbols in c and a bunch of elisp wrapper code, but just which symbols, etc is non-obvious 03:57:35 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 03:58:01 if this becomes 'off-topic', there is a #haiku too 03:58:04 chandler, it doesn't, but for i386 compiled code support there is a rather low upper bound on the virtual address space it can use. 03:58:09 leavengood [~rjl@adsl-074-166-196-078.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:41 So it would like to use anonymous mmap to allocate the all the low virtual address space it can. 03:59:09 (For x86-64 compiled code, there is an upper bound too, but it is far beyond what any current hardware physically supports for virtual addresses anyway.) 03:59:57 (And for C compiled code support, there is no such bound.) 04:00:28 Anyway, how hard could it be to teach Haiku to support anonymous mmap? 04:00:59 Some messages on haiku-development from 2008 indicate that it does, which shows how long it's been since I looked at this. 04:01:10 yes i'm pretty sure it does 04:01:15 git-greping source now 04:01:16 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:01:50 http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source 04:02:12 is an OpenGrok search tool, if anyone's interested. 04:02:22 yes it does 04:02:33 OK. If so, and if the POSIX compatibility is good enough, then porting Edwin may just be a matter of writing some new primitives to talk with Haiku's graphics and then adapting xterm.scm to use them. 04:04:53 Does the low virtual address space that it needs start at some particular address? 04:05:02 No, but the more the merrier. 04:05:13 And what's the definition of "low"? 04:05:24 High six bits zero. 04:05:57 (Yes, that's pretty small for i386.) 04:08:02 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@173.74.42.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:47 -!- mmadia [~mmadia@pool-173-63-184-196.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 04:09:28 Riastradh: The lowest I can seem to place a fixed allocation at is 0x00300000. Anything lower than that segfaults. 04:09:43 Oh, I suppose I ought to ask about what I usually take for granted: OpenSSH (client and server)? screen? zsh? 04:10:02 yes, no, yes 04:10:06 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has joined #scheme 04:10:11 No screen? What do you use instead? tmux? 04:10:29 i think there is an old port from the BeOS days lying around 04:10:41 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 04:10:49 bitweiler [~phax@adsl-75-24-189-96.dsl.pnblar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:53 i haven't gotten around to adding new versions to the official ports repository 04:11:09 No, I lie, 0x2f0000 does work as well. Granted, that's but a small improvement. 04:11:23 (I do nearly everything inside screen, especially after encountering bugs in X servers and terminals.) 04:11:47 no X in Haiku, so you're safe :P 04:12:20 Well, I would like an X server in order to run crufty programs that don't have replacements (especially remotely). 04:13:14 It would be silly of me to wonder whether there is AFS support, wouldn't it? 04:13:22 Yes, that would be incredibly silly. 04:13:26 Anyway, I'm out for the night. 04:13:57 Good night! 04:15:39 i think there is a fuse implementation on userlandfs.. 04:15:43 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 04:15:47 Nice PDF reader, *without* support for any JavaScript crap or any nonsense like that? 04:15:59 Oh, Haiku supports fuse? 04:16:26 *jcowan* thinks he hears a ghost around here 04:16:31 yes fuse is supported via the userlandfs 04:17:57 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:18:20 Well, anyway, I have been persuaded to try Haiku out when I get a chance. 04:18:40 \o/ enough spamming of the channel for now 04:18:49 *Daemmerung* laughs 04:18:57 Oh, I spammed it a lot more before you folks showed up. 04:18:58 \o/ 04:19:02 /o\ 04:19:12 ~~~ 04:19:16 Fortunately, I technically run the place, so nobody will have the audacity to complain! 04:19:22 He's... doing the wave 04:19:45 /o/ 04:19:47 \o\ 04:19:51 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #scheme 04:19:52 calisthenics. 04:20:37 o 04:20:39 /~\ 04:20:44 / \ 04:20:52 Well, the moment Riastradh leaves, it's back to the usual VB.NET chat around here 04:20:57 apart from the dislocated head, it's a guy wearing a "Google Wave" shirt 04:21:14 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:09 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:22:21 Riastradh: You've been usurped in your absence. Daemmerung now leads us in a robust discussion of the latest and greatest in enterprise technology from Microsoft. 04:22:26 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 04:22:37 Developers! etc, usw 04:23:04 ...aaaaiiiieeeee!! Nooooo! Get it out of my head! 04:23:19 Fortunately, I don't have anything remotely resembling Flash working here, so I can't possibly see that video again on this system. 04:23:25 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:24:45 Apparently you haven't visited youtube.com/html5 in a H.264-supporting browser. 04:25:03 There is no H.264 or -- as far as I know -- HTML5 anywhere near here. 04:25:14 Even the mighty Jobs must bow before Youtube 04:25:57 Riastradh: I'm not sure if you're in Utopia or Antarctica. Maybe both. 04:26:14 No, I'm in NetBSD. 04:26:45 Running on a toaster-oven or the like, I suppose 04:27:40 Pretty much. I have to prop up the video card with a small stack of business-card-sized objects or the screen gets a white skin disease and turns into...um, a blank white screen. 04:28:07 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:38 I also had to write some code myself to write a bit in the PCI mapped address space in order to enable the radio on this particular hardware. 04:29:14 I didn't have to write or port the driver myself, though, as I did for the PowerBook G4. 04:36:03 I am safe from running netbsd for a while. Hauled off a pile of old MIPS hardware. Hope it gets a second life somewhere, but most likely it's now poisoning a landfill... I didn't/don't have the time/will to whack it into a weather station controller or the like. 04:37:52 *sladegen* lures Riastradh out from utopia by mentioning tinyogg. 04:38:01 What's tinyogg? 04:38:08 nothing 04:48:16 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:51:38 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:52:19 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:38 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:40 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:56:17 fooki [fooki@h-73-135.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 04:57:54 *jcowan* chuckles at *Hobbit*'s comments in netcat.c 04:59:11 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:25 Not too many widely distributed programs that contain the word "Fuckheads". 05:03:34 /* local variables, yuk! */ 05:04:42 lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:05:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:08:03 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:10:35 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:21 ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:56 fabe [~fabe@p54A7DD3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:00 -!- leavengood [~rjl@adsl-074-166-196-078.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 05:15:49 jcowan: See the keywords in srfi-1/13. Beats fuckheads. 05:17:26 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7DD3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:43 *Riastradh* blinks. 05:18:07 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:19:16 eli: What do you mean by "srfi-1/13"? 05:19:36 jcowan: curl http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html | less 05:19:40 /keyword 05:20:20 jcowan: What Riastradh said, or s/1/13/ 05:21:39 At some point someone change the copy in the plt tree to "youthful devotees of intra-gender communion". 05:21:47 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:22:15 There are no instances of "keyword" in the text of SRFI-1, or SRFI-13 for that matter. 05:22:56 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:02 jcowan: view source. 05:23:18 (Which is what Riastradh implied by using curl.) 05:23:20 -!- mdmkolbe [~adamsmd@2001:18e8:2:244:212:3fff:fe43:5290] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:23:41 hah 05:24:45 mdmkolbe [~adamsmd@2001:18e8:2:244:212:3fff:fe43:5290] has joined #scheme 05:24:49 that's... special, eli. 05:24:56 "If I thought anyone cared, if I thought anyone would even be reading this, I'd probably make an effort to keep up appearances until the last possible moment. But no one does, and no one will. So I can pretty much say exactly what I think." 05:25:38 why is zsh > bash? 05:26:23 rudybot: eval (char>? #\z #\b) 05:26:24 Daemmerung: ; Value: #t 05:26:31 whatever that means 05:26:41 More to the point: 05:26:47 rudybot: eval (string>? "zsh" "bash") 05:26:50 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 05:26:50 Riastradh: ; Value: #t 05:26:53 See? 05:27:24 elly: Yeah, I think that when I told him about it, he said that he really thought it would make the page more popular... 05:27:46 foof: Better for interactive use IME. 05:28:17 -!- mdmkolbe [~adamsmd@2001:18e8:2:244:212:3fff:fe43:5290] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:29:55 I don't know whether I am just more habituated to zsh or whether it is really better in my experience for interaction, but in any case it seems better for me. And for non-interactive use, there is hardly any reason to use a non-portable shell. 05:30:18 So neither zsh nor bash makes any sense for writing shell scripts. 05:30:20 eli: the IME comes from the terminal... does zsh have its own IME layer? 05:30:33 ...uh. 05:30:34 What? 05:30:37 What? 05:30:47 "In My Experience". 05:30:51 oh 05:31:03 You're probably mixing that with ZLE. 05:31:09 The zsh line editor thing. 05:31:12 sorry, was thinking "IM" 05:31:33 input method... editor? 05:31:44 what I was asking though was _what_ was better about the interactive use? 05:32:16 I don't know; I just have a vague impression. 05:32:43 Better/faster completions shipped 05:32:52 mdmkolbe [~adamsmd@2001:18e8:2:244:212:3fff:fe43:5290] has joined #scheme 05:33:01 foof: I generally find it more comfortable in terms of interacting with it: the ZLE thing is really good, near-sane way to assign keys to functions and write new functions, etc. 05:33:21 Also, has better hooks for things like cwdcmd and such. 05:33:33 Actually, I have been a little spooked by zsh's completions in recent versions. 05:33:39 Also it has better word splitting rules 05:33:44 It's so far the only shell that I could convince to show the command I'm running in the title. 05:33:45 Riastradh: there is no portable shell 05:34:20 For example, I often type `gunzip -c < /path/to/foo.t', and then if the file is foo.tar.bz2 instead of foo.tar.gz, I change gunzip to bunzip2 afterward. But recent versions of zsh just exclude the .bz2 file if the command is gunzip... 05:34:21 Oh yes, path completions are really great. 05:34:32 However, generally I am pleasantly surprised by zsh's completions. 05:35:01 bash has the same functionality 05:35:44 Does bash have zmv? 05:35:55 what does zmv do? 05:36:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:15 zmv 'foo(*)' 'bar$1' renames foo.c to bar.c, foox to barx, foozot to barzot, &c. 05:36:32 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:48 (Not hard to implement, but just a random example of a frill that is often handy and pleasantly surprising to learn about.) 05:37:29 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@185-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:37:59 for that i use rename(1), it's on every system I work with 05:38:38 On the systems I work with, rename(1) is a trivial utility I wrote to do what `mv -f' should do but doesn't... 05:38:48 foof: my impression is that bash is chasing zsh, it certainly has a good number of features, but zsh almost always has more, and almost always have them sooner. 05:39:10 I also wrote a replacement in gosh that handles automatic charset conversions in filenames, since it's so common to receive zips with sjis and euc filenames in Japan. 05:39:29 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:40:03 Riastradh: it's distributed with Perl, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least in lib/perl/ somewhere 05:41:49 and since the renaming can be any perl expression its both more flexible and you don't have to remember yet another little rewrite language 05:42:16 wdired is far better than all of these anyway. 05:42:28 e.g. the mix of glob-style * and regex-style () 05:43:18 *Riastradh* shrugs. 05:43:30 If you like bash, carry on -- I sha'n't object! 05:43:49 oh, i hate bash, i was just curious 05:43:50 I don't know what you're missing, or what I'm missing; using zsh is mostly just habit for me. 05:44:25 Anyway, it is hours past my bedtime, so good night! 05:44:41 (and maybe some day someone will revive Commander S and make it into something usable) 05:44:50 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:45:12 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:46:39 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.197.237] has joined #scheme 05:48:36 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:48:50 -!- fooki [fooki@h-73-135.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:07 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:55:05 *jcowan* wants to write a minimal shell like rc, but Lua-based. 05:55:47 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:56:46 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:57:47 -!- mhoye [~mhoye@shell.off.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:41 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-76-111.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:36 <_rata_> good night guys 06:00:52 -!- _rata_ [~rata@pc-233-130-161-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:01:14 curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:01:19 -!- curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:46 jcowan: chibi-based is on my TODO list 06:03:12 *jcowan* nods. 06:03:25 Lua has a softer learning curve, though, for non-Scheme programmers. 06:04:23 -!- puddingpimp [~dave@118-93-74-47.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:04:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #scheme 06:06:00 mhoye [~mhoye@shell.off.net] has joined #scheme 06:06:18 -!- maw [web209_mar@pdpc/supporter/student/maw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:46 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:28 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[Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:35:31 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 08:48:55 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:52:34 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:00:57 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:03:01 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:09 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 09:12:58 toxygen [toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #scheme 09:13:02 hi, i would like to ask if it's possible to get mit scheme for macosx 10.4 09:13:07 the one compiled at their page is only for 10.5 and i can't compile my own w/o mit scheme 09:19:01 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 09:20:31 maw [web209_mar@pdpc/supporter/student/maw] has joined 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the connection] 12:12:32 davazp [~user@64.Red-79-157-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:15:38 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 12:20:35 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 12:22:41 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:27:17 xwl [~user@125.34.171.190] has joined #scheme 12:34:50 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:49:13 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 12:49:17 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ac735ac.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 12:49:51 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 12:52:13 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 12:52:48 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@82-171-200-240.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Changing host] 12:52:48 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:53:02 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:53:09 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: hkBst] 12:53:27 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:53:32 toxygen, you can just use the `Unix binary' distribution of MIT Scheme. 12:53:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:56:50 toxygen, it won't have a fancy .app bundle which you can double-click in the Finder, but otherwise it is not functionally different (whether you use the .app bundle or not, Scheme will have an X11 interface). 12:58:05 toxygen, if you have any questions or further problems, send mail to the mailing list -- we are more likely to be responsive to that. 12:58:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 12:59:07 toxygen, be sure, by the way, to follow the instructions given for the Unix binary -- in particular, to run `make compile-microcode', not just `make'. 13:00:02 karme 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host closed the connection] 17:50:50 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:54:30 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:56 -!- davazp` [~user@64.Red-79-157-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:03 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:45 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:49 phao [~phao@189.107.142.121] has joined #scheme 18:05:21 choas [~lars@p5B0DC6C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:35 dmoerner [~dmr@89-196.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 18:17:46 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-25-82-254-143-94.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:29 -!- ros3 [~roselynro@70-36-146-118.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ros3] 18:37:41 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:41:12 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:55 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:51:45 How would one write FOLDR in Continuation passing style? 18:52:11 ros3 [~roselynro@99.13.242.166] has joined #scheme 18:53:40 painfully 18:54:10 we'd write it in direct style, then use a CPS transformer. 18:54:35 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-31-44.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:03:52 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-31-44.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:58 schmir [~schmir@p54A9027E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:09:09 -!- m4nic [~m4nic@ip252-55-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:32 Meh. 19:09:46 Is there an example on the web somewhere? 19:15:17 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-23-52.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:17:31 ziggurat 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[~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:23 *Daemmerung* smells homework 20:21:21 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 20:21:41 lera_zed [~Valera@mm-55-142-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 20:25:21 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:39 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.249.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:11 Daemmerung: None of NU's classes have even mentioned CPS yet. This is for a project, I'm implementing an evaluator/compiler for the student langauge in JS 20:42:15 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:43:07 It's sort of metacircular. Anyway, I don't think I can have proper flow without a CPS implementation of FOLDR. 20:43:29 For now, I just added yet another hack to this project. 20:43:31 Armageddon00: Do you know how to write it in ordinary recursive style? If you do, translation to CPS should be roughly mechanica. 20:43:38 -!- lera_zed [~Valera@mm-55-142-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:59 "mechanical", even. 20:44:18 -!- mastertogo [~Bob@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:44:33 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 20:45:12 kar8nga [~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:56 Armageddon00, google "Continuation Passing Transform". 20:46:55 chandler: In the recursive case, I have, roughly, (foldr p b (rest ls) (lambda (rst) (p (first ls) (rest ls)))) 20:47:07 Assuming the procedure is atomic and doesn't take a continuation 20:47:24 wait no 20:47:29 lisppaste: url? 20:47:29 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 20:47:37 Why don't you paste your definition of `foldr' there? 20:47:40 Armageddon00: do you have access to a copy of EOPL? There's a heuristic in it 20:48:23 Pretty much, start with a direct style foldr, then convert mechanically. Not complicated because foldr isn't complicated. 20:48:35 Armageddon00 pasted "cps foldr" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99153 20:48:44 Once you get used to doing this, you can probably write it in CPS without doing the conversion. 20:48:48 I fear this is going to take a while to convert it. 20:48:55 err explain it 20:49:11 This isn't in ordinary recursive style. It seems to already be written in CPS. 20:49:17 Yeah 20:49:19 But not 20:50:01 If apply-procedure fails and returns an error instead of calling its continuation, it doesn't fall out completely, the fold takes it as its continuation. 20:50:01 Well, the call to `rest' is not in CPS, but maybe that's not an issue for this program. It seems like your argument passing convention includes a return continuation and an error continuation, which makes perfect sense to me. 20:50:22 nah the error continuation is an error constructor 20:50:30 Ah. 20:52:05 Anyway, the issue seems to be that I want apply-proc to be in tail-position so that its return value drops out of the computation, but that's foldl. 20:52:27 In the case of an error, you mean? 20:52:32 chandler: Aye 20:52:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-120.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:32 (apply-proc p (list (first ls) rst) err k) is the same as (k (p (car ls) rst))? 20:54:45 Daemmerung: Yeah 21:00:44 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:02:19 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 21:02:30 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-206.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:05:23 -!- ve [~a@193.62.81.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:56 mastertogo 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