00:01:11 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:14 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:11:21 -!- masm [~masm@bl10-246-84.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16:13 slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has joined #scheme 00:23:14 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:32:43 Hmmm trying to write a macro that takes (with-points (vars ...) body ...) and expands to (let ((a (newvertex))(b (newvertex))) body ...) 00:38:39 help please 00:38:46 NAS (not a student) 00:39:48 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-186.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 00:40:22 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:31 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:42:28 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:02 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 00:54:59 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:55:48 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:56 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:34 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.88.127] has joined #scheme 01:09:02 yay, lucid lynx is out! 01:09:06 -!- foof` is now known as foof 01:18:37 `kofno [~user@cpe-66-61-17-241.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:18:38 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.62.117] has quit [] 01:18:45 Time to face the tough decision of whether to install fresh, try to dist-upgrade, or do nothing. 01:19:56 My work box has gone through 2 dist-upgrades and gotten more chaotic each time, I'm not sure it will survive another. :-) 01:20:11 :) 01:22:09 -!- mbishop [~martin@adsl-156-70-59.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:32 mbishop [~martin@adsl-156-70-59.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:36 both of my current ubuntu installs are only a couple of months old, but i still think i'll do a dist-upgrade 01:22:57 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:26:25 sralmai [~sralmai@173-26-194-97.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 01:28:01 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:09 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:29:26 Colloguy [~flx@adsl-99-59-75-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:22 k0rn [~k0rn@68.200.247.38] has joined #scheme 01:37:02 -!- k0rn [~k0rn@68.200.247.38] has left #scheme 01:41:37 lisppaste url 01:41:37 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 01:42:34 thom_logn pasted "macro sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98576 01:43:15 anyone mind reviewing my first attempt at a macro? I am curious for any hints the channel might have 01:43:41 in particular if I could use ... to simplify it 01:54:53 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:14 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-146.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 01:59:11 SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 01:59:44 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-186.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:05:37 ivanhoe annotated #98576 "lazy cheating" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98576#1 02:13:17 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:16:34 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-98-216-238-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:59 -!- Checkie [1981@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:29:23 -!- proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:03 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:28 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:36:20 phnglui_ [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:38:09 -!- phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:38:12 -!- phnglui_ is now known as phnglui 02:38:23 _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:39:53 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 02:42:56 Checkie [19158@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 02:44:10 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-146.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47:30 *jcowan* unvanishes 02:48:17 namaste 02:49:07 *jcowan* finds a foof on the road and kills him. 02:49:26 I'm going to try to spend some of the next few days filing issues. 02:50:02 oh good, there are still plenty of issues we need to add 02:51:33 At least the first batch will probably be things I think WG1 should add. 02:52:41 evening all 02:52:59 mornin' 02:54:38 I'm also going to send along the revised versions of the generic function, keyword, and JavaScript-object libraries for Chibi. 02:57:12 adf rewt pbo r py b 02:57:34 Eh? 02:57:50 fdg 0-1! 02:57:54 Riastradh [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:58:02 *gnomon* runs from Riastradh 02:58:05 Boo. 02:58:13 *jcowan* hands Riastradh his trident. 02:59:36 *Riastradh* chases after gnomon with the trident repeating `KILL DA CEPHALOPOD' in an operatic roar. 02:59:59 noooooooooooo 03:00:10 *jcowan* grasps his own trident with a foot and sends it after Riastradh. 03:00:13 *gnomon* throws inflated paper bags at Riastradh 03:00:31 Hmm. 03:00:48 *gnomon* thinks better of the plan and tosses the aforementioned bags in the general direction of both Riastradh and jcowan 03:00:50 Oh, uh, I forgot to say: hi. 03:00:55 Hullo! 03:01:47 (an ill-advised experiment has left me rather inebriated) 03:02:13 So, what's new besides gnomon's ill-advised inebriating experimentation? 03:02:29 *jcowan* presumes Riastradh is discoursing in the usual melodious Irish. 03:03:10 Apparently jcowan is planning to spend the new few days filing issues, mostly as they pertain to WG1; and he is also planning to send along the revised versions of o I forget wat i was talkign about 03:03:39 Some itty bitty libraries for Chibi. 03:04:13 rudybot: gnomon is drunk; lift his wallet 03:04:14 *offby1: One project that I *will* undertake is integrating twit.el into the new credentials infrastructure, which in turn will talk to the OS X Keychain, KDE Wallet, and so on. 03:04:55 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:04 offby1, that's what I think of THAT! 03:05:07 Yes, isn't this Tor hidden service James Joyce provides wonderful? I connect up to the Tor hidden service, and he maps my insipid American prose onto Freenode in a melodious Irish brogue audible even through IRC. 03:06:02 Insipid American prose indeed, like such as. 03:06:13 rudybot: offby1 is lift; drunk his wallet 03:06:14 Riastradh: One project that I *will* undertake is integrating twit.el into the new credentials infrastructure, which in turn will talk to the OS X Keychain, KDE Wallet, and so on. 03:06:36 :( 03:06:42 I hate it when the mechanism shows 03:06:45 robudy: lift is wallet; drunk his offby1 03:07:05 stop eating my antenna, silly cat 03:07:34 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:07:41 headphone cables are as lasodf aoff mlitit damn 03:13:00 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.152.88.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:35 jcowan: did you have any thoughts about opening different types of ports? 03:15:08 I'm very conflicted. On the whole I think it's better to have separate procedures for binary and textual I/O. 03:15:39 we have at least a binary/textual distinction, encoding, probably buffering settings, and maybe append/create/trunc settings 03:16:10 For WG1 purposes I'm okay with just a default encoding. 03:16:36 yes, i'm talking more WG2 here, where WG1 would just use an appropriate subset 03:16:56 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 03:17:00 i don't think line-ending should be a parameter 03:18:48 for _just_ a binary/text distinction, separate procedures is OK, but as you add more options it gets unwieldy 03:19:07 especially if you allow call-with and with- variations 03:20:10 on the other hand, any keyword-based solution will make at least some people upset in your choice of keyword API 03:21:02 Not if the keywords are the R5RS-portable variety. 03:21:12 some will still dislike it 03:21:44 I'm against it! 03:21:45 *Riastradh* dances. 03:21:51 personally I want (open-input-file 'encoding: ) 03:22:00 (all together now!) 03:24:38 possible keywords could include 'encoding: 'encoding-error: 'buffering: 'append: 'if-exists: 'if-does-not-exist: 03:25:18 we could also have (open-file 'direction: 'input) 03:25:44 but the direction is always necessary, so it makes sense to just include it in the procedure name 03:26:00 jcowan pasted "Whatever it is, I'm against it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98582 03:26:46 actually, david rush basically said he didn't like my I/O proposal before I even made it :) 03:27:04 Exactly. 03:27:36 foof: why 'encoding: rather than encoding:? 03:28:59 simpler, avoids import/export/shadowing/hygiene issues, keeps the namespace smaller, makes it clear that the keyword is a symbol... 03:29:36 were you thinking of encoding: as identifier-syntax, or as in the common-scheme approach? 03:29:48 How about (file-options (file-option:coding ...) (file-option:line-ending ...))? (procedures) 03:30:11 (open-input-file "foo" (file-options ...)), that is. 03:30:42 Riastradh: as-is, too verbose for something extremely common 03:31:16 perhaps with aliases for the common cases? 03:31:18 *foof* ponders 03:32:08 oh, and if any of those forms are syntax i'm completely opposed! 03:32:55 That's why I said `procedures'. 03:33:46 i think R6RS's call-with-port is good though 03:36:34 oh, ideally i also think normalization should be a property of the port (not string), but that's probably going too far even for WG2 03:36:51 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:37:09 I'd like to stay focused on WG1 I/O for now. 03:37:31 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:38:22 yes, but they will influence each other 03:39:14 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:39:29 Yes, and you might get arrested for deriving interfaces under the influence of the WG1's I/O! 03:39:37 for WG1 we could get away with separate procedures since there are so few options, but that would likely clash with WG2 03:40:19 Why so? The WG1 names just become special cases of the more general WG2 versions. 03:41:41 *foof* wonders if Riastradh is IRCing under the influence 03:42:34 It's second-hand booze, foof! All gnomon's fault. 03:44:10 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:34 *foof* arrests gnomon for contributing to the delinquency of a minor 03:45:25 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:25 *jcowan* arrests foof for exceeding the powers of a WG chair. 03:45:53 copumpkin, arrest jcowan for arresting foof for contributing to your delinquency! 03:46:16 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:46:23 *jcowan* surrenders meekly to copumpkin's overwhelming seeds. 03:46:36 ! 03:46:55 *copumpkin* wraps his vine around jcowan 03:47:06 consider thyself arrested 03:47:10 *jcowan* looooves clinging-vine types. 03:48:26 :) 03:48:40 do those count as dynamic types? 03:48:57 Oh, definitely. 03:49:25 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:49:30 *jcowan* has decided to do Flopsy with explicit sigla instead of type inference. 03:49:51 I'm no longer dependent though 03:49:53 as of a few years ago 03:54:59 hmmm... what to eat for lunch? 03:56:33 Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 03:59:53 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:02:39 -!- sloyd_ [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:04:01 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:04:49 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:11:43 -!- Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night] 04:13:56 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:00 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:46 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:10 -!- SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:51 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:49 A Reuben! 04:26:48 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 04:27:16 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 04:27:24 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 04:36:15 sloyd [haruken@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:35 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:48 hmmm, this doesn't seem to be valid (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () (foo (c ...) (d ...)) `(um (c d) ...))) 04:38:02 `' 04:40:54 That's right, thom_logn. Now, I am going to use telepathy. 04:41:21 My telepathic powers are telling me that what you were trying to do was to write a SYNTAX-RULES macro with a single rule, whose pattern is (foo (c ...) (d ...)) and whose template is `(um (c d) ...). 04:41:59 In that case, you need to write that rule as a single element, rather than as two elements, in the operands to SYNTAX-RULES -- that is, you need to wrap the pattern and template in parentheses. 04:44:56 thank you *ponders* 04:46:40 Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:46:53 ivanhoe thank you for looking at my code and commenting 04:49:39 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:49:56 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:10 Riastradh having trouble visualizing the solution... 04:51:32 ((foo [etc]) `(um [etc])) 04:51:35 -!- Maxel_ [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:51:43 rather than 04:51:45 (foo [etc]) `(um [etc]) 04:52:22 Oh, cut and paste error. the paren is really there 04:53:17 if I use two '...' in the pattern do I need two in the template? even tho I want to iterate over both 04:53:32 at the same time 04:53:33 Some Scheme systems accept that; some don't. 04:53:47 so it's dodgey at best 04:53:47 Of course, what happens if I write (foo (a b c) (d))? 04:53:58 -!- turbofail [~user@adsl-69-238-246-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:01 been reading jrms syntax-rules primer 04:58:57 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 04:59:22 rm_ [~rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 05:01:37 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:55 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:05:38 proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 05:10:56 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:11:54 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-56-82-255-199-249.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:51 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:42 Omancho [~Omancho@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:54 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:22:53 lol, off topic, how does one revert initial commit in git, dang, it's trippy... 05:23:24 -!- Dark-Star|Zzz is now known as Dark-Star|Away 05:30:07 offby1: curse you, you've given me a craving for a reuben and i have no idea where to get one in the japanese isles! 05:31:04 *offby1* cackles evilly 05:32:46 *Daemmerung* gazes into his sake 05:33:04 No reuben on yahoo auctions. You are doomed. 05:34:34 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/riastradh] has left #scheme 05:40:02 -!- slyphon [~slyphon@unaffiliated/slyphon] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42:26 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:44:47 *foof* votes for bs/m/lob (small/medium/large) 05:45:19 reprore [~reprore@p4b216c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:45:31 if it uses 20MB it's a Binary Venti OBject 05:57:11 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-56-82-255-199-249.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 05:59:58 i wonder what a grande is? 06:04:49 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:10:00 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:10:25 russkey [~russkey@ool-18bb0ebd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:25:36 attila_lendvai__ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:33:33 I never did understand the logic behind the starbucks size names 06:34:38 lisptast` [~user@cpe-76-177-227-49.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:42:08 What's the advantage of prefix notation versus postfix? 06:42:13 I think postfix is better. 06:42:34 Because when you read and write code... 06:42:38 Len__ [~Len@77.127.175.72] has joined #scheme 06:42:44 I always find I go to the innermost point and work my way out. 06:42:57 copumpkin: it sounds italian. Italy has a strong coffee image. Thus Starbucks makes real coffee. 06:43:33 'starbucks' doesn't italian 06:43:57 "grande" sounds italian. 06:44:22 maybe if you pronounce the e in the end 06:44:22 Dude, SOY CHAI LATTE 06:44:37 it's the best fuckin' beverage ever 06:44:50 Axioplase_: but then why "short" and "tall" instead of "breve" and "lungo" ? 06:45:07 Because they hired a Japanese translator? 06:46:06 Because babelfish wasn't working well yet? Because it has to have a reminescent taste of Italy, yet be American? 06:46:14 Because they had the power of focus groups. 06:46:23 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #scheme 06:47:00 Because they want us to talk about them, to take over the community and make us program in a language whoses logo is a coffee cup? 06:47:11 *Daemmerung* twitches 06:47:44 Anyway. Starbucks is dog piss. There's no real coffee in those beverages. 06:48:24 it's better than what you usually get in america 06:48:24 but what is real coffee? 06:48:47 If they sold real coffee, shops would close at 2pm, for customers would be over excited and unable to sleep for the next 18 hours. 06:49:23 real coffee means a very high concentration of caffeine? 06:49:28 Real coffee is a beverage that makes you sleep when you don't drink it. 06:49:39 real coffee = cat poop coffee at $120/lb 06:49:44 Len__: as far as I'm concerned, yes. 06:49:53 caffeine is bad for you 06:50:13 And life is lethal, yes I know. 06:50:30 people have existed for thousands of years without imbibing any caffeine 06:51:00 well, caffeine makes me lose concentration and gives me headaches 06:51:00 As a French, I drank coffee for the caffeine, and so did everyone around me back home. 06:51:09 that only go away when i drink some coffee 06:51:13 and only for half an hour 06:52:20 *Len__* is feeling a blissful feeling of relief right now 06:52:35 but very soon my head is going to be tortured by demons again 06:52:52 -!- attila_lendvai__ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:52:55 -!- attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:53:30 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:58:03 npe [~npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 06:59:46 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:03:37 -!- Len__ is now known as WLen 07:21:37 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 07:23:41 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:27:07 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:38:44 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-162-12-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:46:00 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.138] has joined #scheme 07:46:20 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:01:47 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 08:04:56 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 08:06:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:15:52 -!- Omancho [~Omancho@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: The Lord of Murder Shall Perish.] 08:24:21 -!- proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:32:20 Axioplase_, tu es francais? 08:33:10 -!- sralmai [~sralmai@173-26-194-97.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:34:14 Bonjour [~4e29e354@gateway/web/freenode/x-rjohexpsknvfosdi] has joined #scheme 08:34:47 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 08:42:08 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:45:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:28 masm [~masm@bl10-4-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:54:00 Argh, he left. 08:54:21 minion: tell Fare Oui, je suis français. 08:54:21 Fare: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 08:54:36 hum, did I get something wrong here? 08:55:29 Axioplase_: he just hates French people 08:56:06 Because our language is superior to his. 08:56:36 This is the Sapir-Wolf-Axioplase conjecture: minion is jealous because he can't speack French. 08:58:09 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:58:30 Dem stoopid Tapir-Dworf kenjackshoors 09:00:43 rudybot: later tell Fare Oui, je suis français. 09:00:44 minion: memo for Fare: Axioplase_ told me to tell you: Oui, je suis français. 09:00:45 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 09:01:07 chainbots \o/ 09:01:09 So that's why it's called minion. 09:02:14 I can't help thinking that it's because minion's cute ("minion" is "cute" in French) 09:02:27 alvatar [~alvatar@33.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 09:03:59 offby1` [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:05:31 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09:36 -!- WLen [~Len@77.127.175.72] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:35:48 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 09:58:20 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@33.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:08:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:17:17 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-185-49.net.novis.pt] has left #scheme 10:27:54 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:33:25 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 10:36:39 alvatar [~alvatar@44.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 10:46:51 -!- `kofno [~user@cpe-66-61-17-241.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47:46 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:53:55 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:14 phao [~phao@189.107.155.126] has joined #scheme 10:54:24 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.155.126] has left #scheme 10:57:03 -!- Bonjour [~4e29e354@gateway/web/freenode/x-rjohexpsknvfosdi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:01:45 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 11:10:57 incubot: destroy cute minioff! 11:11:01 there's destroy-value-cg 11:11:20 (Does minion have value?) 11:11:37 dunno, but he may be priceless... 11:13:08 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 11:13:38 `kofno [~user@cpe-66-61-17-241.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:15:04 -!- reprore [~reprore@p4b216c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:31 incubot: calculate the cost of minion. 11:17:34 opless i want to calculate it with the same way that the square root be calculated 11:19:54 nurv [nurv@83.231.89.91] has joined #scheme 11:20:10 Hi. 11:27:33 -!- nurv is now known as nurv|afk 11:28:16 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:33:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:35:39 lisptast`: that's funny, because I always read postfix code right-to-left. 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[~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:24:56 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:21 *jcowan* unvanishes. 18:27:22 jcowan: happy walpurgis night! 18:29:13 nurv [nurv@83.231.23.245] has joined #scheme 18:29:21 Hi. 18:31:46 mejja: Danke. 18:38:33 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 18:39:07 it's walpurgis night? 18:39:30 It will be. 18:40:17 Walpurgisnoon. 18:43:12 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 18:51:52 woot. an architecture retrofit of 1.7 million lines of scheme code just compiled and started up for the first time 18:52:01 1.8 18:52:10 *offby1* salaams 18:52:18 rudybot: tell neilv how clever he is 18:52:18 neilv: how clever he is 18:52:29 rudybot: rephrase your telling of neilv how clever he is 18:52:30 *offby1: ok, let me rephrase: any sinful tips? 18:53:27 Nicely done, rudybot. 18:53:38 Congratulations, neilv! 18:55:34 1.8 million lines of Scheme? 18:55:34 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-44-111.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:55:50 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 18:55:57 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-44-111.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:56:09 rudybot: Say good night, Gracie 18:56:10 Daemmerung: M. Night Shamaramalamadingdong? 18:57:53 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 18:58:02 i took vacation from my day job to work on this 19:00:16 Yes, but what is it that takes 1.8 million lines of code to do? 19:01:34 And what's your "LOC" metric on a S-expression? I've always wondered. 19:01:43 it's for a large database/reporting/analysis system used mainly for government-related things 19:01:57 i just did a "find" and "wc -l" when i typed that 19:02:05 no sloc metric 19:02:09 Fair enough 19:02:52 How many decades did this take to write? 19:02:54 metrics usually aren't very useful, but sometimes it's helpful to say "this is 100 lines of code" and "this is 100,000 lines of code" 19:02:55 Out of curiosity, in what scheme system does it run? 19:03:02 plt scheme 19:03:26 i'm converting it to use the plt web server 19:03:44 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@227.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:03:48 What did the system use pre-PLT? 19:04:05 it's always been plt. before it used cgi for the web front-end 19:04:50 Here I was imagining you lovingly rewriting 1.8Mloc of VB dot net. Imagine my disappointment. 19:05:25 the funny thing is that this huge pile of complicated scheme code written by multiple people of varying skill level... 19:05:48 ...is wildly easier to work with than the nightmare of code i'll be working with on my day job on monday 19:06:43 the latter being a mix of several different popular languages 19:07:15 the latter all being written within the last 2 years 19:08:05 I'm just impressed that you got more than one person at a time writing Scheme. That would be a new experience for me. 19:08:15 heh 19:08:48 there's no reason you can't do team development in scheme 19:09:02 the hard part is convincing managers to let you use scheme 19:09:38 Managers I can sell. The hard part is convincing the team. 19:12:13 i like what ita did: they believed in lisp, and as they grew, they found people who knew lisp or who otherwise were very smart 19:12:52 unless your company sucks, there's no reason you can't attract people who know scheme or would be able to be productive quickly with it 19:14:40 if you have venture capitalists or managers who are worried that they can't hire commodity java clerical workers or ship it overseas, run away :) 19:18:37 -!- Colloguy [~flx@adsl-99-59-75-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:28 sphex [~nobody@modemcable218.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:20:54 neilv: I'm not surprised that it's easier to maintain than non-Scheme/Lisp code. I've worked with several large code bases in Common Lisp, and it was much, much easier to understand and work with than large Java or C++ programs. 19:21:12 yeah 19:21:30 this is why oop failed 19:21:49 neilv: I am, however, still shocked at that 1.8 million lines of code. Is the a specification for this program, and if so, how many tens of thousands of pages does it take to print that out? 19:23:51 there are specifications for some things, like the database schemas, but much of it has no documentation 19:24:20 Is the code written at a reasonable level of abstraction? 19:24:31 neilv, can we advertise that people have written million-line programs in PLT? 19:24:35 (or to be less uhmm harsh - why the oop style encouraged by java/c++ failed) 19:25:35 chandler: much of it is. there are parts by a more junior person that are conspiciously not abstracted as well as scheme makes practical 19:25:55 aintme [~Miranda@158.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:26:18 This must be a frightfully complicated system, then! 19:27:37 samth: not yet. i would have to see what i can get permission to talk about. i probably already said too much 19:27:57 samth: i'm hoping we can have a success story for the plt web server with this new work 19:28:01 Perhaps that 1.8M includes some sexp-format data or generated files. 19:29:41 I can see the news flash: "DUCHY OF LIECHTENSTEIN RUNS EXCLUSIVELY ON PLT RACKET" 19:29:59 Hah! 19:31:26 Checkie [139@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 19:33:39 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:07 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #scheme 19:44:46 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:45:02 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:47:53 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad7bb5e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 19:48:44 neilv: There is also the Google answer to "Why can't I code in language X?" 19:53:48 Namely, "No results found for 'Why can't I code in language X?'." 19:54:27 *Daemmerung* needs the wingding-code for the Achtung! mark to the left of that result 19:55:44 Daemmerung: u26A0 - "Warning Sign" 19:56:31 Somehow I doubt there are a lot of fonts that have a glyph for that though. :-) 19:56:53 *Daemmerung* genuflects deeply 19:57:02 i try to avoid "why can't i use my favorite language?" things, because there *are* a lot of fanboys whose enthusiasm for one choice exceeds their awareness of all the issues and options 19:59:25 i was recently trying to tell some decision-maker why we would already be done with a project if we'd just used scheme, and that it's not too late to do this one part in scheme 19:59:58 and the response was basically like i was an undergrad fanboy who knew only scheme and thought it was neato 20:00:51 Ugh. 20:04:15 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:29 i love working with these government clients, though 20:05:52 so, jcowan, what is the Google answer? 20:05:54 the head guy is a phd who used to be a real software developer, and really knows his stuff 20:08:25 google's answer is that you can pick from a very small list of languages. and now they have their own language 20:08:44 which isn't a bad policy 20:09:04 npe [~npe@94-224-250-44.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:09:50 they could've done better than python, but it's not a hugely bad choice, especially considering that they have the resources to evolve it if necessary 20:10:03 Sorry, was on phone. 20:11:09 Basically, it's "If your language is to be a first-class one at Google, it has to provide access to the N (> 50) different internal services, so there will be a huge porting effort for the various client libraries, and even harder work to keep them up to date. So C++, Java, and Python are the only first-class Google languages, and there aren't likely to be any more." 20:11:35 Go may or may not change that. 20:16:38 is there anything major of the google infrastructure being rewritten in go? 20:17:02 at least as a test run how go needs to evolve... 20:18:20 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 20:18:23 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:37 -!- aintme [~Miranda@158.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: /* */] 20:23:00 wingo [~wingo@185.Red-88-0-166.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:23:04 evening, schemers 20:23:05 If so, I don't know about it, and if I did, I probably wouldn't be able to say. 20:23:11 Afternoon, wingo. 20:23:40 heh, didn't count on an answer really. 20:24:28 incubot: multiply and be fruitful, go, rewrite yourself! 20:24:28 Go is far from mature, but it is a much better basis than C++, IMHO. 20:24:31 sorbet: later tell Riastradh this: As the psychoanalyst André Green puts it, A fruitful obscurity is worth more than a premature clarification. 20:24:55 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-44-111.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mathk] 20:25:01 Bot orders bot about. Is there no justice? 20:25:57 schmir [~schmir@p54A93F3A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:26:43 On #swhack, the appropriate incantation will produce approximately 10 different bot responses before dying out. 20:27:42 oh, no doubt about go being better than c++ except for the c++ generic "nut jobs". 20:29:40 i think it's high time people stopped rewritting lispy vms in every application started in c/++ 20:30:03 You're right. They should be writing forthy VMs instead. 20:31:11 not without reason did the Lord proclaim, "go forth & multiply" 20:31:20 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:31:34 No, they should split the prefix/postfix difference and write STky VMs (pronounced "sticky") 20:32:36 wingo: That's a mistranslation. A more accurate version is "forth go multiply and". 20:33:00 the lord speaks in mysterious ways indeed 20:35:47 ow, shacks, you know what i mean, it starts with custom allocator, then garbage collector, now concurrency primitives and ends with yet another vm/DSL... defining config file format is an entry drug. 20:35:55 *sladegen* stfus. 20:41:11 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:34 so how goeth things in wg* land? 20:42:18 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-44-111.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:10 jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:41 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has quit [Quit: pdponze] 20:58:44 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:44 -!- `kofno is now known as `kofno_missing 21:04:04 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/dj_jeezy.jpg] 21:04:58 Poeir 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