00:00:12 I don't know what is happening with Magic these days, but there are at least a couple of S-expression to JSON libraries out there. 00:01:35 I'm thinking of using weblocks but I was wondering if there was something comparable for scheme 00:01:38 upward: thanks, upward. :-) 00:01:44 I'll take a good look at leftparen 00:02:41 -!- Skewb [Skewb@83.231.80.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:07 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:21:38 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:23 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:10 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:44:21 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:50:52 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-237.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:07 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 00:54:22 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:22 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 00:59:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:03 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:00:08 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:18 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:34:10 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:37 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:37:39 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:45:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:10 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:30 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:52 nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has joined #scheme 02:03:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:30 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 02:10:06 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:48 Alright, anyone want to race? :-) ;-) 02:22:41 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 02:26:24 arcfide, hey ill race you 02:29:44 My car is so slow that it looks like a cdr. 02:30:10 Hahah, that's fun. :-) Time to eat. :-) 02:30:21 chandler: You're good. :-) 02:30:24 arcfide: This is my steed of choice, FYI: http://www.typematrix.com/ 02:30:29 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:30:53 arcfide: I've just practiced, s'all :-) 02:30:58 I run http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm 02:31:02 Ahhh, yeah, I remember looking at that one a while back, you like it? 02:31:32 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:31:32 Yeah. I had their first model, then destroyed it with a liquid spill and switched to the Apple aluminum keyboard. Got sick of that and saw they finally had a USB model. 02:32:04 I'm pretty happy with it. Those who prefer a Kinesis or a Unicomp may strongly dislike it. 02:32:06 chandler: get a god damn model m 02:32:34 Quadrescence: I strongly prefer a scissor-type key. High force keyboards may have an emotional appeal, but they're not good for your fingers. 02:32:52 I'm not sure about that. :-) 02:32:53 I'm not hitting people over the head with my keyboard. I'm typing on it. 02:32:55 Good for the ears :))))))))) 02:33:08 Also, das keyboards are very nice 02:33:25 (they give wonderful feedback) 02:33:59 The dominant feature of my relationship with keyboards is: crumbs :-| 02:34:03 The non-staggered layout of the TypeMatrix is the first keyboard that actually forced me to correct all of my sloppy touch-typing habits and hit keys with the fingers I ought to be using instead of stretching to hit them with odd fingers. 02:34:04 crumbs and cat fur 02:34:17 Whatever keyboard one uses, one needs a "matrix layout" (that is, each key is really above/below another), and to use dvorak or some similar alternative 02:34:22 s/TypeMatrix/DominAtrix/ 02:34:22 offby1: cat fur is terrible :< 02:34:33 Quadrescence: it's fine as long as it's still attached to the cat 02:34:39 offby1++ 02:34:41 Oh, that's my second favorite feature of the TypeMatrix: a form-fitted silicone skin. 02:34:49 you are now not off by one or perhaps off by 2 02:35:02 As far as I know, only typematrix, kinesis and maltron have such physical layout 02:35:17 y'know a few hours ago, someone with the nick appeared in #emacs. I must track this person down 02:35:38 I'm still using QWERTY. I'm not convinced that Dvorak has enough of an advantage to make it worth the effort. If I only typed on this one keyboard, I'd probably devote the time to learning Colemak instead. 02:35:58 As far as I know, the TypeMatrix is the only keyboard that offers Colemak in hardware. 02:36:08 if type racer allowed for spelling mistakes I bet I could win 02:36:28 that TypeMatrix keyboard is just weird-looking. Is that non-staggered layout really better? 02:36:28 if typeracer alowdef fors speilling msitakes i coudl type as fast as I want ed to adn still winn! 02:36:30 It looks painful 02:36:37 asdiofja;soidfjoeiwjf;iowjef;ioajseiofjsfio; winar! 02:37:11 chandler: well, I went to dvorak(-bépo) at the same time I changed keyboard I do think that it's a real relief (I have an RSI on both hands) 02:37:34 offby1: I make no claims of anything being universally better. I like the non-staggered layout; I've never understood why staggered layouts have such prominence, now that we're using electrical keyboards and not mechanical typewriters. 02:38:58 offby1: If a staggered layout were ergonomically beneficial, it would naturally stagger in opposite directions on each half of the keyboard. 02:40:01 moving your finger left and right is much less work than up and down 02:40:04 chandler: good point; I think I'm just used to it from old mechanical typewriters 02:40:49 http://site.xavier.edu/POLT/TYPEWRITERS/underwood5small.jpg <-- what I learned to type on, no lie 02:41:05 $5 at a garage sale, if I recall correctly. 02:41:19 Quadrescence: The total amount of movement is greater in a staggered layout than in a non-staggered layout. Each finger still needs to move vertically by the same amount, but it also must move in the horizontal plane. Except for the letters closest to the center of the keyboard, all movement in a non-staggered layout is in the vertical plane. 02:41:53 sounds like bs if you ask me :D 02:42:08 anyway if you want low movement get an arcfide keyboard 02:42:12 Do you dispute what I just said? If so, why? 02:42:26 No I don't. 02:42:29 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/4029960225_f0d8395818.jpg <-- What I learned to type on. 02:42:34 fight fight 02:42:45 chandler: whippersnapper 02:42:47 damned kids 02:42:51 GET OFFA MY LAWN 02:42:56 *chandler* ducks to avoid incoming denture fire 02:42:57 *offby1* hurls his dentures at mbishop, just to be safe 02:43:05 haha 02:43:55 *rudybot* hurls his dentures at mbishop, too 02:44:19 I wrote a complex scheme system to control my anti-denture shields 02:44:43 seems to be working 02:45:26 chandler: if you don't mind answering, how old are you? 02:46:20 *minion* hurls, just on general principles 02:46:51 Quadrescence: Young enough to have learned how to type and how to program on a IIc, obviously. 02:46:57 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:14 chandler: well I first programmed on an apple //e but I was not around when it was popular 02:47:15 But I'm a geezer at heart. 02:47:35 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:38 When I learned, the IIc was already discontinued. 02:48:51 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 02:48:52 No, I'm not trying to set up a logic puzzle. :-) 02:49:05 I'd just prefer not to answer in a publicly-logged channel. 02:49:12 makes sense 02:51:04 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 02:52:46 timj_ [~timj@e176199201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:09 -!- timj [~timj@e176218146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:07:25 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:15:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 03:17:07 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:42 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 03:25:28 -!- MononcQc [~ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:32:27 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 03:33:11 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:34:06 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:49:12 -!- luz [~davids@201.37.225.185] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 03:50:44 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:58:16 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 04:06:02 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:08:02 -!- sundaymorning [~root@189.107.218.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:11 -!- HexRex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:18:08 *Daemmerung* mutters about whippersnappers 04:18:30 *offby1* talks about mining 04:27:44 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 04:31:06 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:32:46 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:39:50 To make some other comments about the type matrix, I think that, after having used other keyboards, I wouldn't like the typematrix, because I'm not a fan of the scissor mechanism that it uses. 04:41:17 what is this "scissor mechanism"? 04:42:06 The scissor mechanism is a popular switching mechanism for keyboards. 04:42:26 what's a switching mechanism? 04:42:27 :-| 04:42:40 It's especially favored on laptops because it usually has a very small key travel, and quiet sound. 04:42:43 ah 04:42:51 less clackety-clack 04:42:55 Yes. 04:43:09 However, some people also prefer it for the light touch and low key travel over membrane keys. 04:43:46 Scissor keys generally have a lighter touch than membrane keys, though they don't necessarily have a lighet touch than some spring mechanismsm. 04:44:18 They work by having to "bars" that cross each other under the key, when you press, the key goes down and the bars form a scissor type action. 04:45:17 The other mechanisms that I have used are the buckling spring (the classic IBM style), the membrane, and the spring mechanism that they have in the Happy Hacker Pro, which might be a Japansese style ction, which is different in feel than the IBM buckling spring. 04:45:43 The most unique one, however, is the magnetic switching mechanism on the DataHand. 04:46:00 The ones I've used are "The Watusi", "The Twist", and the "Financial Imbalance" 04:46:09 Heheh. 04:46:19 What keyboard do you use? 04:46:49 It seems that we have a few model Mers here, a TypeMatrix, DataHand, Unicomp, and...? 04:47:50 wait we are still talking about keyboards 04:48:22 No, I just brought up my preference against scissor keys, to play catch up. :-) 04:48:33 Afterall, it's not like any of us have real work and Scheming to do, right? :-) 04:48:55 At home I use whatever keyboard is on my laptop (Thinkpad T60) 04:49:04 otherwise I tend to use Microsoft Natural keyboards 04:49:07 got used to 'em 04:50:59 clackety-clack? 04:51:24 don't look back 04:56:56 Take out the papers and the trash 04:57:03 Or you don't get no spending cash 04:58:58 -!- Guest7903 [~incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:18 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 05:03:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:22:40 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:51:44 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:33 fabe [~fabe@p54A7E075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:57 I have some M$ horror here 05:57:05 How unfortunate 05:57:29 Not the wonky unergonomic type but the plainer unergonomic type with the obscure f-lock key 05:58:02 f-lock? 05:58:05 And a load of multimedia buttons 05:58:17 elly: f-lock, always off, makes your f1-f12 stop working 05:58:23 O_o 05:58:24 wtf 05:58:33 They get replaced with help undo redo new open close reply fwd send spell save print 05:58:39 Whatever those are 05:58:48 Also, no insert key 06:00:20 why would you not just bind f1-f12 to those things? 06:01:29 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:01:32 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 06:04:36 I thought I'd butcher a few machines here, but someone seems to have taken them away 06:16:00 crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 06:16:47 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7E075.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:33 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 06:23:54 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:31:48 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 06:37:38 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: irl] 06:45:31 -!- nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has left #scheme 06:48:29 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.112] has joined #scheme 06:49:19 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:05 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:00:42 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 07:01:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:34 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #scheme 07:15:00 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:08 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-73-192.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:44 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:51 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has left #scheme 07:27:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 07:27:31 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:35:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:45 SICP teaches a way to do OOP in scheme, which is to make that dispatch procedure and returning it. I think you all know how that work. Is that technique used in practice? 08:00:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:01:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:02:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:02:46 phao: in practice, i never really need much more than srfi-9; when the need arises, though, protobj is interesting: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/protobj 08:14:31 *sjamaan* thinks prometheus is more elegant and generally cooler than protobj ;) http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/prometheus 08:14:52 protobj looks like Perl :( 08:15:09 mmm, record types. 08:15:23 Unfortunately prometheus is GPL where protobj is merely LGPL 08:16:49 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:23:57 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 08:39:33 -!- henux [henrih@unaffiliated/henux] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:47:25 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-37.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?] 08:50:05 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 08:57:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:02:29 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:04:56 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:05:25 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:13:39 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:14:08 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:30:55 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:37:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:39:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 09:46:15 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:51:30 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:57 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:06:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:49 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:32 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:11:00 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:12:38 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 10:15:48 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:09 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 10:29:11 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 10:42:44 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 10:50:03 crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:12:20 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:19:12 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:57 kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 11:23:20 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 11:45:06 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:34 -!- jao [~jao@136.Red-88-6-173.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:02 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 11:52:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 11:52:37 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:56 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:05 Lajla [~Lajla@213-84-222-243.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 12:04:10 Say, would any of you know a way to improve the efficiency of this prime finding algorithm in scheme: http://codepad.org/ebDNXOcV or maybe tell me if I started at the wrong end on a whole? 12:10:40 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:11:17 alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:17:55 -!- Kavinorum [~kavinorum@pool-74-103-119-154.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:49 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 12:23:15 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:06 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 12:31:54 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:43 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #scheme 12:38:40 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:48:05 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 12:55:51 Lajla, in approximate order of importance: trial division is slow, you only have to divide up to sqrt(n), (INTEGER? (/ a b)) is slightly slower than (ZERO? (REMAINDER a b)) in PLT, APPEND is slow because it copies the entire list 12:58:16 sloyd, hmmyes, but my justification of append is that it produces the list in the inverted order and seeing that it will sooner find out it's divisable by a thing like 3 than a thing like 97 I think a reversed list gains in the end. 12:58:29 Also, it doesn't need to append if it turns out to not be prime. 12:58:47 So I better have it in reverse to quickly decide that it's not prime already at 3 or 5 or 7. 12:59:17 But that sqrt is a good one, they taught me that at algebra, forgot that. 13:00:21 Lajla: some implementations provide non-variadic operators for fixnum arithmetic (e.g., fx+ fx= etc). Using those may improve performance. 13:03:24 foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 13:04:11 you could use a queue, which provides both quick appending and quick iteration from the start 13:05:51 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-186-67-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:09:39 sloyd, hmm, a queue, what is that? 13:10:27 It's like a cue, but instead of one thing following another, any number of things can follow each other. 13:11:38 foof, oh, I thought it was some specialised scheme datastructure. 13:12:53 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 13:36:25 Isn't computing the sqrt of a number pretty expensive in itself? 13:36:32 Or do processors do that in one cycle nowadays? 13:38:09 -!- OneSadCookie is now known as OSC|away 13:40:23 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:18 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 13:45:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:36 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:53:56 bgs100 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:54:53 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:57:30 Lajla: for a general number sieve, you only need to compute the square root of the number you're trying to factor once. Anything else is a waste. 13:58:16 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 14:01:52 HexRex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:04:43 chandler, good point, I used a let for that. 14:05:40 masm [~masm@bl7-38-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:05:43 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:45 MononcQc [~ftrottier@207.253.180.96] has joined #scheme 14:30:12 henux [henrih@unaffiliated/henux] has joined #scheme 14:30:27 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:20 Hi 14:35:27 Is OOP what SICP talks about when it talks about OOP? 14:35:33 I mean... I know this question looks silly 14:36:01 but I'm asking it because all the cases I've seen people talking of OOP was like using it to do silly things that would be better done with normal structured programming 14:36:08 (like in C or pascal) 14:36:17 phao: OOP is a very overloaded term 14:36:35 http://community.schemewiki.org/?object-oriented-programming 14:36:35 I've never seen people doing things like this for example (which is a SICP exercise) 14:36:44 Some people mean "programming with classes", some mean "abstraction", some mean "reuse of components", some mean "data hiding" etc 14:37:10 http://dpaste.com/178112//plain/ 14:37:33 sloyd: Good one 14:38:31 hehe, forgot to remove the call the cops function 14:40:21 I think the main advantage of the way SICP teaches OOP is inheritance 14:40:23 and data hiding 14:40:31 advantages* 14:40:38 phao, I have done that exercise. I'd say it gives you a look of how some kinds of Object Orientation can be implemented 14:40:48 and what are the conceptual mechanisms under it 14:41:08 It is good to get a good grip on what it means to have OO in a language 14:41:11 but it doesn't cover everything and higher-level concept in modern OO languages 14:41:18 And how much support is really needed in the language itself 14:41:24 but yeah, it's a good base to understanding the innards of some concepts 14:42:11 I've heard before that OOP is a "changing in meaning term" 14:42:19 in the past it meant something and today it mean something else 14:42:27 and it also depends on who is talking 14:42:59 if that is true, I really don't care that much about what modern OO languages are doing because they're probably deteriorating the term 14:43:09 I'd read the wiki link posted by sloyd for that ;) it does a nice roundup IMO 14:43:24 I just hope there is some kind of common pattern that is present in all "definitions" 14:43:52 I have already read this one http://www.paulgraham.com/reesoo.html 14:43:59 which, i think, is of the same kind 14:45:03 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:45:24 yeah 14:45:43 the wiki link hasa few references to implementing OO in scheme too 14:49:59 -!- foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:03 foof` [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 14:55:02 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #scheme 14:56:51 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:35 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:59 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.112] has quit [Quit: off] 15:10:05 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 15:11:21 HG` [~HG@xdslhe191.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:11:53 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 15:14:57 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.139.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:21 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has left #scheme 15:21:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 15:23:46 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:42 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 15:31:27 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zvwuoonjluozxnps] has joined #scheme 15:35:26 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-42-26.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:00 sah0s [~anto@92.251.246.80.threembb.ie] has joined #scheme 15:40:41 i am having trouble learning scheme cuz my mental map is stuck in imperative/procedural land - i need help big time 15:41:22 i have r5rs.pdf and r6rs.pdf and i have read through them to the best that i am able 15:41:35 there are a lot of great textbooks that help you to learn scheme http://schemers.org/Documents/#all-texts 15:41:38 -!- Lajla is now known as Islaam 15:42:08 what is getting me is specifically what a 'type' is, what exactly are primitive types and can there be user-defined types 15:43:18 also, are functions a 'type' as such? 15:44:21 -!- Islaam is now known as Lajla 15:44:51 To be honest, I never got why scheme is supposedly not imperative. 15:45:02 It'sjust imperative but uses functions as first class objects, that's it. 15:45:19 Good stuff too, I find declerative languages praeposterous. 15:45:20 ok 15:45:33 sah0s: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-6.html#%_sec_3.2 defines 'primitive types' as you call it 15:45:34 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/muarkt 15:45:53 sah0s, it's really not a good idea to try to learn a language from a standards document 15:46:03 samth, why not? 15:46:12 there are lots of good textbooks and tutorials at the link C-Keen posted 15:46:21 Lajla, that's not what they're designed to do 15:46:28 tps_ [~tps@hoasb-ff08dd00-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 15:46:37 Well, a computer wasn't designed to run scheme as much as fortran. 15:47:00 is there an online version of SICP? 15:47:04 yes 15:47:07 Lajla, that is neither true, nor relevant to this discussion 15:47:13 I think it works a lot better learning a language by the formal specifications. 15:47:19 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 15:47:31 samth, I'm just saying that 'wasn't designed to do' needn't imply that it doesn't perform that function. 15:47:32 sah0s: as samth posted 15:47:40 sweet 15:48:08 Bricks were never designed to kill people, but they make decent lethal projectiles. 15:48:20 Lajla, I've taught several hundred people programming, and I'd never use a standards document 15:48:29 The {Little, Seasoned, Reasoned} Schemer books are decent as well sah0s 15:48:40 samth, hmm, motivate. 15:49:00 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 15:49:10 sah0s, I also recommend How to Design Programs: http://htdp.org 15:49:51 Well, when you're learning a language, the full semantics behind lambda creation are nearly as important as how you create lambdas and how you apply them, for instance 15:49:55 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-111-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:03 x/nearly/ c/not nearly/ 15:50:06 ugh 15:51:32 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #scheme 15:51:36 as chupish said 15:51:41 samth, http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-5.html to be honest, I think this is the wrong way around, one should first appreciate what a pair is, then what a list is, and only then what evaluating a list means to me, after that maybe they can teach you the primitive functions and define what they do. 15:51:43 jao [~jao@136.Red-88-6-173.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:11 It's like teaching analysis before topology, not that all universities don't do that, but every topology book says they should have gotten analysis after it, not before, in the praeface. 15:52:39 um, so skip HtDP & go to The N Schemer Series? 15:52:48 Or Simply Scheme (which I was not terribly fond of) 15:53:00 Lajla, you're welcome to your opinion, but should should consider why it is that universities don't do that 15:53:17 and why calculus (a special case of analysis) is taught first 15:53:27 Lajla: hello, long time no chat 15:53:39 Lajla: i believe i recognize you from #linguistics 15:54:13 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:54:27 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:54:46 samth, well, the obvious reason is of course to enable you to already be able to do some things before the third year. 15:54:58 doesn't # and ' break the fully parenthesized regularity of scheme or are they regarded as syntactic sugar? 15:55:24 ' simply expands to quote (sort of) and # are just literals 15:55:25 sah0s, well, ' is sugar, # is another thing altogether I guess. 15:55:53 Lajla, that's not the only reason - it turns out that teaching the full complexity at the beginning doesn't work well 15:56:07 okay 15:56:12 I suppose one could see #\f in a way as a symbol that evaluates to the character 'f'. 15:56:18 samth, hmm, doesn't work well for what? 15:56:21 Making them understand it? 15:56:34 Lajla, you are incorrect about character literals 15:56:44 but yes, helping people understand 15:56:59 yeah, that's just a semantic token for a literal char 15:57:01 samth, why, because they cannot be bound to other things? 15:57:25 different datum type 15:57:31 because (symbol? '#\f) => #f 15:57:56 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:04 samth, to be honest, I found that I later found out that I didn't understand calculus before I got analysis, and didn't understand analysis before I understood topology and so on. 15:58:07 samth, ah, fair one. 15:58:34 So (char? '#\f) ===> #t? 15:59:18 Lajla, yes 15:59:42 from the perspective of knowing more, your earlier knowledge always seems incomplete 15:59:52 I also later on realized that I never really got that (+ 1 2 3) is not as much passing three arguments to '+' as it is first evaluating the symbol + to a procedure and then passing the list (1 2 3) to it and evaluating the entire list to what that results in. 16:00:03 samth, well, not if you work bottom up is my guess. 16:00:29 If they just started teaching people hilbert calculus first when studying maths, now that would be awesome. =P 16:00:31 Lajla, first, you are incorrect about the semantics of procedure calls 16:00:45 since it should be applicable... 16:01:16 second, people wouldn't learn anything that way - how many 12 year olds would understand the foundations of mathematics? 16:01:37 samth, I find understanding that a lot easier than understanding 1+1, especialyl for young children. 16:01:43 It's a lot easier, I mean, a computer can understand it. 16:02:03 You just follow the rules, you don't even have to think. 16:02:13 curveball - would any of you say that mathematics uses early or late binding? 16:03:53 depends on the maths invovled; for young children, it would be early, since you need to solve the equation to a discrete, &c. Later on it can be simply symbolic (integrate a function, for instance) 16:04:40 sah0s, the question doesn't really make sense for mathematics 16:05:03 samth: why not? it makes sense in my head :) 16:05:20 i think that it is a really interesting question 16:05:55 sah0s, late vs early binding usually means when the meaning of a name in the syntax of the program is determined 16:06:09 for example, a variable reference or a method name 16:06:43 but in mathematics, there is no distinction between the syntax and the semantics (until you get to formal logic etc) 16:07:31 i'm thinking about an evaluator that would leave 1/3 as one divided by three and not make it .3333 16:07:42 sah0s, I think the idea is that in programming 3 + 7 evaluates to 10 while in mathematics, it is identical to ten. 16:07:44 such as scheme 16:07:47 or any language that has rationals... :D 16:07:58 sah0s, mathematics doesn't have an evaluator 16:08:05 referential transparency, of sorts 16:08:44 samth: i see people as evaluators, so i think that it does 16:08:54 sah0s, also, even in programming languages, that isn't any kind of binding, early or late 16:09:34 i could easily be convinced that in mathematics it is context dependent and so is 'mixed' binding 16:09:55 samth: i though some had late ... 16:09:56 ? 16:10:17 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-SEVEN-FORTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:10:21 sah0s, no, your division example does not involve any questions of binding 16:11:11 ( number (/ 1 2) ) 16:11:49 what? / is applied to (1 2) before being passed to whatever number is (maybe you meant number?) 16:11:54 sah0s, what is that? 16:12:14 and I say passed a very loose sense. 16:12:39 sah0s, but that example shows the difference very well. (number? (/ 1 2)) ===> #t, yet (number? '(/ 1 2)) ===> #f 16:12:47 very very loose sense possibly, i'm just throwing these ideas out here, i thought this would be a good place 16:13:03 (/ 1 2) as a list is not the same as as 0.5, even though it evaluates to it, in mathematics, this is quite the same. 16:13:17 I mean, it could be an fexpr, but I hope not :D 16:13:51 sah0s, this is a good place to discuss ideas, but you should perhaps learn a bit more about scheme first 16:14:56 definitely, i have come to scheme (and lisp) via ruby and i have seen the light, it's so conceptually beautiful - i have a great desire to learn it 16:15:23 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:08 i'm not a professional programmer, just a tech hobbyist so i'm in no rush 16:17:19 sah0s, I doubt a lot of companies want to pay you for programming in scheme though. =P 16:17:27 shame 16:18:24 my last two jobs have Scheme, XQuery, C & some minor Python work :D 16:18:27 sah0s, well, in the case of a corporation, if it's coded elegantly will mean them nothing, all they want is that it works. 16:18:40 chupish, seriously, what is that? 16:18:51 document processing & sematnic search 16:18:59 semantic even :D 16:19:12 fabe [~fabe@p54A7E075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:19:36 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslhe191.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 16:20:06 I've got DrScheme for SnowLeopard - it's okay? 16:20:21 chupish, ahh, figures, I stand corrected. 16:20:42 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:20:45 sah0s, it works for me, if not a bit bloated 16:20:53 I use Scheme now for data visualization & munging of logs & what not, so I'm happy 16:21:54 chupish, let me ask you this though, seen serial experiments lain? 16:22:10 only in passing; I have it somewhere here to watch though 16:22:32 I avoid TV generally, so that hasn't helped 16:23:14 however, I see the wiki mentions lisp, which picques my interest 16:24:08 chupish, yes, they even have some elite hacker's cult there called 'Knights of the Eastern Calculus' 16:24:18 heh 16:24:25 Obvious reference is obvious. 16:24:55 is there a method to show all the visible bindings in the environment? 16:25:20 sah0s, hmm, what do you need it for? 16:25:30 in Ruby there is objectspace.each .... 16:25:40 dude, curiosity! 16:25:55 sah0s, you can't do that in general 16:25:56 i'm trying to see how it all hangs together 16:26:14 okay 16:26:32 -!- untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 16:26:40 I wonder if pvts has something like that 16:27:13 yes it does 16:27:21 sah0s: http://www.davidpilo.com/pvts/screenshots.html 16:27:27 i suppose you could make aliases of any special function that binds something to either syntax or a value 16:27:41 PVTS isn't the best env for Scheme, but it does have something to via the current env 16:28:10 x/via/ c/view/ 16:28:23 Lord of Trade, someone take away my keyboard today :| 16:29:07 chupish: very nice 16:29:22 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:27 'tis; iirc LispWorks has something similar, but that's CL not Scheme 16:30:28 PVTS is mainly meant for people learning Scheme (and functional programming in general), but is not a general purpose environment. 16:30:39 i.e. you can use it to see how things 'hang together', but not much else 16:33:28 oooh chapter 1 of SICP open with a quote from John Locke, colo[u]r me officially very impressed 16:33:34 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:37 heh 16:33:44 after you finish that, you can move on to SICM :D 16:36:40 SICM? do i have have to goog or will you tell me? :) 16:37:10 Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics 16:37:16 Scheme + Classical Mechanics 16:37:34 Sedgley International Christian Ministries 16:37:43 no 16:37:57 Unless Beta reduction can set you free! 16:41:23 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:51:47 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:58 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:51 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 16:54:48 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@129-97-249-183.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:55:07 scheibo [~scheibo@129-97-249-183.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 16:56:13 chupish: have you actually done SICM? it's collecting dust on my shelf; and i haven't met anyone else who's done it 16:56:44 I have a decent portion of it done, but it's not my main area of study & I've other more pressing issues to attend to first 16:57:08 actually, you're the first person *I've* ever met who's even heard of it 16:57:51 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:27 one last eensy weensy question .... how do i decompose a user defined procedure into a list data-type and then traverse it? 16:58:28 thx 16:58:35 hope that even makes sense :( 16:58:50 sah0s, hmm, what 16:58:52 ? 16:59:05 You mean serializing a procedure to a data? 16:59:08 to a list* 16:59:13 HG` [~HG@xdslei201.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:59:56 there is no standard scheme way to do this sah0s; you could use read & eval to simulate this, or write some syntax. 17:00:41 Lajla: yes! i guess? 17:00:55 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:58 chupish: i was thinking it must be read or its ilk 17:01:00 sah0s, I'm not sure if lambda is losless like that. 17:01:04 lossless* 17:01:28 sah0s, I would just save the entire procedure as a list and use apply to create the function when needed. 17:01:48 Lajla: i see what you mean, the code as character string data would have to be kept around for such a task 17:02:08 Like, save a list ((bla '((x) (* x x)))) and use (apply lambda bla) 17:02:18 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 17:02:22 sah0s, not at all, kept around as an S-expression. 17:02:29 Or a list data-type, if you like. 17:03:27 alvatar_ [~alvatar@179.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:04:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei201.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:00 sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-68-160-1-85.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:05:57 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@62.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:57 sahos: you could read in the (define f (lambda ( ... & use eval & friends to enter it into the system, but still keep it around 17:08:14 it's a dirty hack (prefereable would be syntax), but you can construct a simple repl quickly 17:09:37 chupish, why doesn't this work: (apply lambda '((x) x)) 17:09:41 It says bad syntax in lambda 17:09:49 But (lambda (x) x) is cool right? 17:10:33 ugh, there's a distinction betwixt syntax & forms here 17:10:44 `lambda' is not a function 17:10:59 exactly, it's pseudo-syntax 17:11:26 i wouldn't even say 'pseudo' 17:11:36 well, I mean it's not library level 17:11:50 maybe primitive syntax would be more discriptive 17:12:58 untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 17:13:22 Ah, so you can't use lambda on that. 17:13:33 THis is what I mean with what happens if they explain it to you in the reverse order. =P 17:15:18 chupish, so that's the deal, it doesn't work on all special forms, or just lambda? 17:15:36 I will say that certain scheme systems at least give you a hint at what's going on; for instance Gauche returns # whereas Scheme48 returns an error 17:15:52 syntax isn't useable in this manner 17:16:26 chupish, define 'syntax', is 'if' syntax just as lambda? 17:16:46 yes, if, define, & friends 17:22:53 chupish, hmm, inconvenient, most incovenient I guess. 17:23:00 chupish, also and / or? 17:23:17 'and' & 'or' are syntax as well 17:23:20 chupish, is there a difference between syntax and special form? 17:23:44 not much, save for some are 'primitive' and some are 'library' level 17:23:48 By the way, isn't it possible to express 'if' in 'and' and 'or'? 17:23:54 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:23:57 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.1 17:23:59 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/nnofal 17:24:31 Ahh, now that is the way to learn a programming language. 17:24:34 hello. can i ask questions about impromptu here? 17:25:12 7.3 might better demonstrate this for you Lajla (just scroll down) 17:25:16 henux, hai! 17:25:27 well henux, you can, but no one is required to answer :D 17:25:56 ahh, and is efined in if? 17:26:01 i seem to be missing "osc_" oscillator when running (au:print-audiounits "augn") 17:26:20 components are copied to ~/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/Components/ 17:26:42 yep, as is cond Lajla 17:26:48 chupish, cond I knew. 17:26:54 heh 17:27:38 it makes sense; you want to short cut on falsehood. 17:30:14 sjamaan: re: prometheus vs. protobj; thanks for the tip. i have a feeling that protobj was just neil's toy; and i like the self/resend semantics of prometheus. 17:30:33 sjamaan: on the other hand, i wonder why prometheus has to explicitly distinguish between value and method slots. 17:32:33 chupish, is there any particular reason you know that (if a b) is not identical to (if a b #f)? 17:33:01 klutometis: because defining setter and getter methods by hand is tedious 17:33:08 Look at the code; it's just sugar for that 17:34:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:30 Technically, that's not R5RS compliant Lajla; basically (if a b) isn't specified to have a result if a "is" false 17:34:46 chupish, well, yeah, I know, but why did R5RS specify that? 17:34:58 sjamaan: aha; add-method-slot! etc.? interesting 17:35:01 What's the use of having it evaluate to nothing. 17:35:07 Or is there some use to the void? 17:35:09 because one-armed ifs are evil perhaps 17:35:43 Well, if you say that it should evaluate to #f then it becomes a two-armed if, right? 17:35:54 it's basically a when expression with a differnent name 17:36:05 chupish: not evil; merely unspecified w.r.t. behaviour 17:36:24 klutometis: no, I don't like mixing when & if, 'tis all 17:36:34 I don't think unspecified == evil 17:36:38 i see 17:38:43 I would still rather have that every evaluation has some value. 17:39:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:39:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:39:59 meh, it's an imperative functional language, I don't see it as having any loss of value for things like single armed if & define to not return useful information 17:40:03 I would also rather have things like (char? bla) evaluated to the character in quaestion if true, else to #f, makes life easier. 17:40:16 anaphoric macros? 17:40:34 Well, I'd rather have define return the expression it binds. 17:41:09 I mean, why not/ No value is of no use, I'm sure there is some use for a random value. 17:41:54 (lajla-def f (fn (x) (+ x x)) ; => # 17:42:09 Makes things like (or (char? bla) (error "You didn't input a character")) easier. 17:42:14 woops, missing #\) :D 17:42:24 My very own def. 17:43:10 well, recall that or is simply if (really), so there's no point 17:43:54 you mean and? 17:43:57 which is what when is for (when (not (char? bla)) (error "Please enter a character") 17:44:27 or is defined in terms of let & if, per R5RS 17:44:29 chupish, but that whole expression doesn't evaluate to the character in quaestion if it is a character. 17:45:22 You else have to use (if (char? bla) bla (error "please enter a character") 17:47:09 But I 'abuse' and, or as control structures all the time, not sure if that's accepted practice. 17:47:10 yep, basically, unless you use anaphoric if or the like (to avoid doubly evaluating bla, should it be something other than a literla) 17:48:46 I think I use them more to select the first true/false element in a list than for true logical conjunctive or disjunctive. 17:49:12 well, it's certainly useful thusly, considering the construction thereof 17:49:20 if your use case was verboten, it wouldn't be contrstructed as such 17:49:46 -!- foof` [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:51:21 chupish, well, I've ben told a lot of times that I abuse programming language's behaviour for things it wasn't intended to but still does, which is also why I like learning them by specs as opposed to tutorials. I suppose it's a blurry line anyway. 17:52:21 I doubt a syntax in javascript like $var && function(){alert('your variable is empty'); was the inention, but it works. 17:53:14 well, I mean, if it works that way, it must have been at least somewhat understood that such things as short circuit operators would be used as such 17:54:05 chupish, well, I think that && is an evaluation breaker was mainly introduced with performance in mind, but maybe they realized it. 17:54:13 I just haven't seen it come around in other other code than mine. 17:54:43 && and || as short circuits have been around for some time; that's kind of the point. This is used in shell coding all the time 17:55:02 most would use if(!var) { var = default_value;}, I think that's too long so I use var && (var = default_value); 17:55:21 I know, just not in javascript for some reason. 17:55:28 Seems to be a lpot of conventions at all palces. 17:55:46 At some points you have to use under_scores, in other points camelCaps. 17:58:32 In Ruby it's an accepted idiom to do x ||= y 17:58:42 sjamaan, how does that work? 17:58:50 (which expands to x = x || y, which sets x to y when x is unset/false) 17:59:05 yeah, I don't think it's nearly as crazy as you assume Lajla :D 17:59:39 chupish, maybe, but I think the difference is that in javascript && and || always evaluate to booleans. 17:59:39 Indeed 18:00:01 yes, definitely 18:00:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-circuit_evaluation 18:00:07 Lajla: Yeah, that's why you need the extra parens, which is ugly 18:00:19 PHP does that too 18:00:25 sjamaan, I agree. 18:00:28 It annoys me a lot 18:00:38 Which is the same reason I find predicates in scheme an awful invention. 18:00:46 (especially since I rather got used to how Scheme and Ruby do it) 18:00:49 Awful! 18:00:49 char? should just evaluate to the character in quaestion if it is on. 18:00:57 mario-goulart: :) 18:01:06 kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:10 Lajla: Makes sense 18:01:38 I got rather used to the way Chicken (and Gauche, and maybe a few others) discard extra values if the continuation accepts only one value 18:01:45 Hmm, sand eh? 18:01:52 (which I think is a similar kind of thing) 18:02:01 That's funny, I called my own operators sand as a placeholder in a programming language I was once making. 18:02:05 select-and 18:02:25 I had them all in two flavours, those that outputted true, and those that outputted the relevant value. 18:03:43 -!- sah0s [~anto@92.251.246.80.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: sah0s] 18:04:28 well, you could certainly do this in scheme; would make a nice library for those who might use it 18:04:38 or you could use a Datalog inspired scheme + third param :D 18:06:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:40 chupish, the only place I can see any use for a T value is for not, and there only for consistency. 18:06:55 I once had an idea of a lanuage though whose not operator returned ITSELF on F. 18:06:59 chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.250.161] has joined #scheme 18:07:01 Since all objects except F are T anyway. 18:17:46 -!- untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 18:25:17 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@82-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:30:05 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:31:04 -!- shardz_ is now known as shardz 18:46:21 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:21 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 18:49:41 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:40 wingo [~wingo@81.39.160.13] has joined #scheme 18:52:36 yea, wingo is here; let's all ask beguiling questions :D 19:02:22 har 19:02:44 yes, 'twas a low hanging fruit that one 19:04:37 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:11:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:47 sah0s [~anto@92.251.203.196.threembb.ie] has joined #scheme 19:17:04 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zvwuoonjluozxnps] has quit [] 19:17:12 foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 19:19:04 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC59773.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:22:59 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:23:53 -!- 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has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:56:02 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:58:30 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03:55 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:09:48 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:21 untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 20:19:31 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:11 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.18.80.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:21 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:22:22 l 20:22:27 n 20:23:35 k 20:23:44 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A903F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:27 ; 20:24:44 schmir [~schmir@p54A903F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:27:16 -!- sah0s [~anto@92.251.203.196.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:27:50 ( 20:29:13 -!- OSC|away is now known as OneSadCookie 20:29:24 noooo, unbalanced parens 20:30:00 http://nat.org/blog/2004/03/6-march-2004/ 20:30:01 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 20:31:51 ) 20:31:54 -!- untouchable [untouchabl@dhcp-129-64-166-29.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 20:35:04 Sometimes, I just take out a random IRC channel and write out a bunch of opening parentheses, to make up for all the unfinished code out there in the world. 20:43:04 sundaymorning [~root@189.107.218.78] has joined #scheme 20:43:57 -!- chittoor [~rajesh@115.117.250.161] has quit [Quit: This client just died] 20:44:23 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Quit: my favourite color is blue......NO, YELLOWWWWWWWWW] 20:52:17 Sometimes, I just type a bunch of random closing parens to bother the heck out of the type of people that it bothers. )))) 20:53:07 sah0s [~anto@92.251.217.187.threembb.ie] has joined #scheme 20:54:51 chandler: ngh. 20:54:57 chandler: don't do that 20:55:01 Colloguy [~flx@64.134.221.128] has joined #scheme 20:55:15 I should write a bot that keeps track of the paren parity of this channel and rebalances it as needed 20:55:22 hehe 20:55:37 like paredit-mode for irc :) 20:55:52 Will it match [ and ] too? 20:55:54 *mario-goulart* hides 20:55:59 It would be fun to add two of those to the channel 20:56:03 Chaos! 20:56:07 -!- glogic [~rm@174.143.215.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:07 mario-goulart: sure, why not? :P 20:57:25 elly: rebalance this! ))))))))))))))))))))))))) 20:57:31 chandler: M-c 20:57:35 returned to toplevel. 20:57:59 So on IRC, that'd be a kickban? 20:58:03 chandler: it would balance unclosed parens, and kickban people who cause the balance to go negative 20:58:07 yep :P 20:58:18 "Syntax error." 21:01:39 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:32 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 21:08:43 ( 21:08:55 ) 21:08:58 (and fuck you) 21:08:58 Hi 21:09:19 how do you use (display astring a calculated value) 21:09:32 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:37 emma: erm, (format)? 21:09:52 or PRINTF, I guess 21:09:53 i want to like (display "total revenue" (a calculation procedure that returns a value)) 21:10:09 so display is not the right one to use. 21:10:21 (printf "total revenue: ~a" (some-procedure)) 21:10:30 thanks 21:10:34 emma: (display "total revenue") (display (a calculation procedure that returns a value)) 21:10:57 mario-goulart: ew :P 21:11:11 printf is offensively un-lispy, but also quite handy 21:11:29 why unlispy? 21:11:41 magic encoded inside strings 21:12:21 yes 21:12:29 code should have the decency to look like code :P 21:12:36 *Daemmerung* nods 21:13:09 unfortunately, IMO the 'lispy' way looks like: (printf (list '(string "total revenue: ") '(arg 0))) 21:13:14 or something similarly offensive 21:13:25 foof has a fmt thingy 21:13:35 (define (super-display . args) (for-each display args)) 21:13:36 never used it 21:13:40 *mario-goulart* hides again 21:13:47 mario-goulart: you could do that :P 21:14:15 would (display "") force a new line? 21:14:23 (newline) would 21:14:27 okay thanks 21:14:55 (display "\n") if you're hardcore 21:15:08 then you could (super-display "lol: " thing1 thing2 "\n") 21:15:09 Depends on the Scheme system you're using 21:15:12 which actually looks rather nice 21:15:27 *sjamaan* uses PRINT for that 21:15:40 (print "lol: " thing1 thing2) 21:15:49 But that's nonstandard too ;) 21:16:29 emma, hai 21:16:34 hi 21:16:35 (display #\newline) if you're not depending on C string lossage in your Scheme 21:17:01 By the way, is the newline procedure platform adjusting? 21:17:11 As in, does it print \r\n on Windows? 21:17:34 or \n\r 21:17:49 \r\n is the windows newline 21:18:47 Yeah, but does newline adjust for that? 21:19:35 r5rs newline 21:19:36 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_626 21:19:37 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5hye6n 21:19:39 I guess \n\r would make the most sense for a newline though, \r alone should be something like printing two lines of text over each other and \n without going back to the start, kind of making a stairway of text if you get what I mean. 21:22:29 -!- shrughes [~shrughes@cpe-98-155-85-124.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:38 hotblack231 [~jh@p4FC5B287.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:26 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC59773.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:14 -!- alvatar_ [~alvatar@179.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:31 alvatar [~alvatar@156.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 21:34:31 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:09 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-38-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 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[] 22:35:17 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:35:25 -!- dudleyf [~dudleyf@ip70-178-36-159.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:28 -!- fabe [~fabe@p54A7E075.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:54 Congrats to Fellesein and the PLT crew! 22:47:56 indeed! 22:48:16 felleisen, even 22:51:28 foof: what, the karlstrom award? 22:53:21 dudleyf [~dudleyf@ip70-178-36-159.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:56 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:35 -!- dudleyf [~dudleyf@ip70-178-36-159.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:42 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.39.160.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:32 klutometis: yeah 23:15:27 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:17:00 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 23:17:39 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:20:25 -!- hotblack231 [~jh@p4FC5B287.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:46 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@156.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:31:25 shrughes [~shrughes@cpe-98-155-85-124.san.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:33:23 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:07 -!- foof [~user@i220-220-122-111.s02.a013.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:42:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.200.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:47:14 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:48:14 wow a scheme community! 23:48:30 it actually exists! 23:48:57 also, some of the members of it are cunning. 23:49:10 I'm not particularly, though 23:49:12 cunning? pardon my english 23:49:13 Just zombies heres. 23:49:16 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:24 and bots 23:49:54 teurastaja: a commonly used English phrase is "a cunning scheme", in the not-a-language-name sense 23:50:29 i just dont know what it means 23:50:41 cunning means being smart and sharp, with some disreputable implications 23:51:00 ah ok 23:51:02 someone is who is cunning is that, anyway 23:51:44 a good way to think of it is "like a fox", assuming you have the semi-standard European view on foxes 23:51:48 smart-ass 23:52:14 ruse in french 23:52:32 with an accent on the e 23:52:34 ah, so you are from Quebec. 23:52:39 yes 23:52:53 how do u know im from quebec and not france 23:53:16 I don't, but your ISP in is .ca 23:53:20 lol 23:53:22 (I'm fron .us) 23:53:32 *from .us, even 23:54:00 im from quebec city 23:54:06 I though teurastaja was Spanish or Portugeuse 23:54:14 initially 23:54:17 finnish 23:54:19 ah 23:54:56 any Finnish ancestry, or are you a recent immigrant to .ca? 23:55:13 nothing 23:55:19 pure french] 23:55:45 ah, so you're straight up Quebequois (hope I got that spelled right) 23:55:47 cool 23:56:35 there are a bunch of Schemers operating out of Montreal last I checked 23:56:37 quebeois 23:56:39 oops 23:56:42 quebecois 23:56:43 teurastaja, puhutko suomea? koska mun mielesta 'eurastaja' ei vaikuta suomalaiselta? 23:56:49 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-94.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:13 er..... i dont speak finnish sry 23:57:30 teurastaja, well, you can probably guess what I asked, it started with 'do you speak Finnish'. 23:57:56 yes 23:57:56 and then 'because as far as I can see, 'teurastaja' doesn't seem Finnish.' 23:58:32 its a song from turmion katilot 23:59:45 adamant i heard of them but nothing more