00:07:57 Arelius` [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 00:09:30 -!- Arelius` [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:24 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:19 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 00:23:12 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:37:35 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:38:48 haole [~ivan@187.23.80.198] has joined #scheme 00:39:38 hello there... i've been programming scheme for a few months now, and i noticed something: i bloat a lot of my code with type checking... is this a good practice in a functional programming environment using scheme? i'm a little confused over this topic 00:42:00 tangential, but functional is orthogonal to type checking 00:43:00 haole, have you looked at typed-scheme in PLT ? 00:43:23 jonrafkind, no... gonna check it out, then 00:43:53 its somewhat still in beta but you can try it 00:45:06 jonrafkind, yes, but it seems to me that this is not the usual way of using scheme... i want the opinion of scheme programmers about this... do functional programming allow you to trust in a code that does not check types? 00:45:51 again, its not functional vs type checking, its just that scheme is dynamically typed. ML and haskell are strongly typed functional languages 00:46:25 I tend to check a fair number of types in my code, I know many other scheme programmers who do the same 00:46:34 not on every expression, but at important junctions 00:47:41 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 00:47:56 jonrafkind, i see your point 00:48:27 jonrafkind, i was using records to do this, but my code was getting more bloated than i would like it to 00:49:29 you mean you were inventing new types through records? like 'record-grandmas-age' ? 00:52:42 jonrafkind, exactly... and then i realized i was getting far and far away from sicp lol 00:52:53 i don't want that... but C has roots on me! 00:53:14 heh, well I strongly agree with that style of programming. i'm doing it right now for some c++ code. inventing new types to keep things straight 00:55:11 haole: I only check types at interface boundaries - entry points into a module, that sort of thing. Goes with the rest of API parameter checking. PLT "contracts" promise to do a lot of that grunt work for me, but I've never used them. 00:55:47 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:56:51 ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has joined #scheme 00:57:29 Daemmerung, i was organizing my data as lists, in the beggining... but i was getting a little low on confidence because totally different concepts in my program would look very alike when looking at them just like lists 00:57:55 That's a real problem with lists-everywhere. 00:58:08 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:32 Also, you don't get the default safety of a type mismatch with a generic list. 01:00:28 Ultimately I can leave out explicit type checking, because I know that CADR e.g. will barf if I give it a number. Error message won't be the prettiest, but if I'm the sole developer that doesnt' matter. If everything is a list, however, that safety check fails. Records save you that. 01:00:57 lists are an awful way to encode structure, IMO 01:01:01 (There's of course more to parameter validation than type checking.) 01:02:52 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:07:31 Daemmerung, the only alternative i know is using accessors like they do in sicp... but still, as you said... in a multi-developer environment... error messages would be trouble 01:15:46 -!- rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:17:09 -!- kuatto [~kuatto@71-215-209-64.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:07 -!- masm [~masm@bl5-105-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:28:09 -!- haole [~ivan@187.23.80.198] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 01:30:12 /clear 01:30:15 hmm 01:37:59 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:38:59 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:05 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:46:19 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 01:46:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:57:16 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-217.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:57 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:03 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:46 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:51 Any suggestions for a scheme system for a total newbie to use? 02:22:57 I'm on Windows XP 02:27:00 PLT 02:27:52 ty 02:36:07 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:37:35 It wants me to choose a language 02:38:10 Uh, there's a book HtDP. If you're learning from that, you want to choose the language it tells you. 02:38:33 Is HTDP something for people new to Scheme, or people new to programming? 02:38:34 Otherwise just go for "Pretty Big." 02:38:58 New to programming. 02:39:07 Ah :/ 02:39:43 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 02:39:43 I'm doing something from scheme.com 02:40:23 Then use Pretty Big. 02:40:30 ty 02:40:47 I just did some define square thing 02:40:53 And I did (square 1/0) 02:41:03 It seems to be frozen now. Can I stop it doing whatever it's doing? 02:41:23 Ok, got it 02:52:34 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:53:17 -!- zmanning [~zmanning@c-24-20-40-207.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:59:03 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:01:29 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:08 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:34 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:10:29 Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has joined #scheme 03:11:09 Considering that I am familiar with programming, does that mean I should look for a tutorial other than HtDP? 03:15:10 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:15:35 Sgeo: I haven't read the scrollback, but ... just reading the "Guide" that comes with the docs might be enough 03:15:47 The PLT docs? 03:17:18 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:17:32 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:19 mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 03:23:25 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:38 yeah 03:35:27 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 03:37:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:38:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 03:39:46 -!- foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:42:18 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:45:20 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:53:32 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:55:12 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:57:30 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-15-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:59:34 -!- rgrau [~user@107.Red-88-11-109.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:15 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:02:31 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-71-182-169-172.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:04:27 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:52 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-71-182-169-172.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:58 foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 04:19:39 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-250-65.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:48 -!- mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:24:51 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 04:24:52 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 04:24:52 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 04:26:54 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-250-65.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:28:23 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-15-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:16 -!- phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:02:21 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:09:38 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:27:15 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.184.106] has left #scheme 05:30:41 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:31:16 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 05:39:48 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:00:10 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:02:07 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-217.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:31 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-217.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:02:32 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-217.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:06:55 I'm reading the PLT guide, but don't know what's standard Scheme and what's PLT junk 06:07:47 perhaps you should not read the PLT guide :P 06:08:13 Read R5RS, then. 06:08:26 What about R6RS? 06:08:35 Although I don't know if DrScheme has that 06:09:13 If you're really worried about standard, R5RS is much more widely adopted. 06:09:21 Ok 06:10:05 Me, I'd persevere with the PLT Guide. Worry about "standard" once you go elsewhere. 06:10:55 ditto 06:11:08 scheme portability is irrelevant unless you're writing a library 06:11:45 Still won't hurt you to read R5RS. 06:12:13 I wouldn't say that's a "guide to scheme programming", though. 06:12:24 #t dat 06:12:27 Maybe "The Little Schemer", although I never liked it 06:12:37 *Daemmerung* stones the heretic 06:13:36 *shrug* 06:13:39 what can I say. 06:14:03 more BLASPHEMY and FILTHY LIES, that's what 06:14:36 NATURE WANTS US DEAD 06:14:37 ....hm, "Blasphemy" would be a good name for an impl 06:14:52 DOGS PREFER MUSTARD TO DOG FOOD 06:14:58 one blasphemy, one lie, as requested 06:15:05 Daemmerung: only if it was case-sensitive :P 06:15:17 offby1: point of order: nature just wants /you/ dead 06:16:15 I don't consider myself special 06:17:23 Apparently, R5RS doesn't do the square bracket thing 06:17:53 R5RS does very little. That's part of its Spartan charm. 06:18:29 "The Little Schemer" is good for pure R5RS. 06:18:50 Oh, offby1 said that. 06:19:16 *elly* doesn't like the square-bracket thing 06:19:31 *foof* neither 06:19:35 grumps 06:19:40 In another channel I'm in, I mentioned PLT, and two people went on a hatefest 06:19:50 *Daemmerung* is agnostic on the matter 06:20:09 everything is hated by someone 06:20:21 I, for example, hate the under-cabinet lights in my kitchen 06:20:24 Me, I hate tofu. 06:20:42 peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:57 Um, The Little Schemer doesn't seem to be legally available for free online :( 06:22:11 alas, no 06:22:20 it is worth paying money for 06:22:26 *Daemmerung* dittoes 06:22:27 But unlike most technical books it won't cost you three months salary. 06:22:30 yes 06:22:33 it is like $25 06:33:14 wow, plt mailing list pretty active 06:37:58 you've caught it in a quiet spell. 06:40:32 It's the most active Scheme mailing list. 06:41:21 do I need to download a new version of PLT to get the Sports Illustrated and Salma Hyak menus? :) 06:47:37 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 06:57:48 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:58:58 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #scheme 06:59:19 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:01 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:04:49 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 07:07:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:19:47 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:50 What's the difference between define and set!? 07:23:21 -!- peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: peter_12] 07:26:54 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 07:27:21 Sgeo, you better search for that answer in some kind of book teaching scheme 07:28:47 Oh, huh. When I tried to define on the same variable twice, I didn't get an error, but it didn't define the second time 07:28:52 I thought I'd get an error of some sort 07:29:02 Wait, n/m 07:29:09 But, you can understand the set! as being the "=" operator of C and C++ 07:29:27 No, the sequential defines worked 07:29:28 For now, I understand (define ...) as being C's preprocessor #define 07:29:36 and set! as being C's "=" 07:29:43 That's probably wrong 07:29:55 YOu can do that. 07:30:06 define just ties up a name to a value. 07:31:02 That's why I think of it as C's #define 07:31:20 I don't think one can do repeated #define 07:31:30 but anyway.. Your best bet is to search for that on google. 07:31:43 there are some small books teaching scheme available on the web 07:31:52 I'm reading through R5RS 07:31:59 look at the links in the topic. 07:32:05 Ooh, I can't set an undefined variable 07:32:05 they probably teach this. 07:32:25 of course not :-) 07:32:52 The "key" here 07:32:59 is not understanding how set! is different 07:33:10 is to understand how "define" is different. 07:33:27 because set! is much more closer to the "=" operator of C (or := of pascal, ...) 07:33:33 than define is of anything I've ever seen. 07:34:15 And... supposing you already know some other programming language, you know what I said means. 07:34:26 but, anyway, I don't know the answer to your question. 07:34:29 bbl 07:46:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:06:50 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 08:37:01 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:37:31 Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has joined #scheme 08:37:41 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 08:42:39 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.136.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:42:58 phao [~phao@189.107.136.123] has joined #scheme 08:43:47 -!- mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:44:39 -!- foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44:51 AnalogAndroid [~davebot@hil-101-218.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 08:45:40 (display "I should really be asleep a few hours ago") 08:47:58 I should really be asleep a few hours ago 08:48:14 Sgeo, Scheme-IRP? 08:48:27 lol 08:49:13 (display (number->string (+ 1 1))) 08:49:21 Good night 08:50:30 night 08:51:30 2 08:57:58 -!- AnalogAndroid [~davebot@hil-101-218.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:14:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:38:44 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:43:10 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:43:49 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:57 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055026043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:01:48 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055080145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:02:10 -!- Checkie [3903@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:02:20 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.136.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:02:52 phao [~phao@189.107.136.123] has joined #scheme 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:41 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 10:15:25 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.90] has joined #scheme 10:19:00 foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 10:21:26 -!- cky [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:59 cky [~cky@h-98-105-12-26.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 10:25:14 Could someone give me some comments on this http://dpaste.com/168649//plain/ ?? 10:26:58 cky_ [~cky@cpe-065-190-148-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:27:05 comments along what lines? 10:28:01 -!- cky [~cky@h-98-105-12-26.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:28:38 elly, I don't know how to answer your question. I just want to hear what people think about that text 10:29:08 I mean like... grammatically? stylistically? the substance? 10:29:29 the substance 10:29:50 -!- ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:29:51 *elly* begins reading 10:29:55 thx 10:30:40 i don't understand what the last two sentences of the first paragraph mean 10:31:15 Hmm 10:31:21 Did I use some word that has no meaning? 10:34:42 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:34:57 no, there are just too many pronouns for me to deal with at 0530 10:35:10 Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has joined #scheme 10:35:11 hehe 10:36:51 hm, okay 10:36:59 I'm kinda improving the text 10:36:59 I just read it twice and I don't really understand what the point is 10:37:10 woo 10:37:26 http://dpaste.com/168653//plain/ 10:37:32 maybe, now, the 1st paragraph is more readable 10:38:55 "The problem is that, some obvious things don't quite display with transparency their implications." <--- does "obvious things" mean "designs" here? 10:39:24 hmm 10:39:35 I didn't made that clear 10:39:43 what I meant by "obvious things" in the beginning 10:39:45 was subject 10:39:48 subjects* 10:39:58 so the entire first paragraph is actually about books? 10:40:38 No. The 1st paragraphi is about obvious subjects that have some "hidden" implications behind them. 10:40:47 aha, okay 10:41:29 hm 10:41:48 I feel like there is an interesting idea lurking in the third-to-last paragraph 10:42:09 ok, question: in one sentence, what is the main point? 10:43:06 that analyzing whatever is you're doing help you MUCH 10:43:39 ops 10:43:46 whatever is you're trying to understand*** 10:44:05 the relation with that being obvious is just that we HAVE to analyze if we want to understand 10:44:14 there is no other way... so it's obviously necessary 10:44:32 do you mean that trying to formalize design invariants mathematically (like in the SICP example you give) is a valuable technique? 10:44:35 but for some reason, people don't seem to, in fact, do it (do it with attention, for example) 10:44:50 -!- foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:44:53 elly, yes. If I understood you right. 10:44:59 correctly* 10:45:31 05:43 < phao> but for some reason, people don't seem to, in fact, do it (do it with attention, for example) 10:45:41 the perl people have something to say about programmers and laziness :P 10:45:51 elly, what do you mean? 10:45:58 (I've never talked to perl users) 10:46:05 one of perl's design principles is "programmers are lazy" 10:46:51 heh. 10:46:53 I agree. 10:47:05 But I'm kinda writing my "articles" for programmers "lovers" 10:47:12 people ESR call hackers 10:47:50 reading books like SICP 10:48:00 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:48:01 or listening to very intelligent people 10:48:07 well, hm 10:48:09 kinda gives me insights that maybe 10:48:22 are meaningless for others, but they tend to make me understand things better 10:48:31 there are many good examples of data structures where formalization of invariants can make your life better 10:48:38 I never thought, for example, about formalizing the conditions of the design of something 10:48:49 like SICP did 10:48:55 *elly* worked at a company that did that one summer 10:49:10 ? 10:49:38 all design decisions were justified by formalizations of the involved components 10:51:58 http://phao.50webs.com/swdesign-defs.html :-) HTML version 10:52:05 much better to read. 10:52:50 aw, I liked the text one better :P 10:52:57 hehe 10:54:29 *elly* -> sleep 10:58:34 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:02 bokr [~user@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 11:08:35 masm [~masm@bl5-105-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:26:48 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-5-59.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:30:14 foof [~user@FL1-122-131-140-159.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 11:51:42 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:24 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 11:53:03 choas [~lars@p5B0DD30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:24 -!- jay-mccarthy [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:07:00 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 12:07:33 how would I go about posting my thoughts to scheme wg1? 12:14:02 I have this topic which I want the members of the wg1 to see and consider 12:14:21 does anyone know how I can contribute? 12:17:30 xwl [~user@123.115.109.149] has joined #scheme 12:22:35 morphir: Ask foof 12:25:45 foof: you know how I can submit my e-mail to wg1? 12:26:23 its ironic though 12:26:26 .. 12:26:43 my e-mail is about standardizing the repl-mode 12:27:37 thus reduce clutter for the end-users... but just announcing this information is annoyingly cluttered 12:37:52 morphir: We've just finished introductions and the ritual case-sensitivity flame-war, and are now focused on fact-finding and cataloging issues. It's a little early for concrete proposals. 12:38:53 *morphir* scatches his head.. 12:39:05 I would consider this an issue 12:39:16 heh! 12:39:30 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.136.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:39:48 morphir: _cataloging_ issues. Finding out what they are, not yet proposing how to resolve them. 12:40:14 We also haven't set up any process yet for outside input. R6RS used SRFI's, and we may do the same. We'll at least solicit feedback after the first public draft. 12:40:28 inconsistency between repls are indeed an issue for this committee 12:41:06 morphir: Are you just reminding us that it's an issue, or are you proposing a solution? 12:44:14 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:45:07 And I'd like an unbounded number of unreferenced objects (especially wrt lambda and call/cc), generative lambda wrt eq?, generative define-record-type, and upper bounds on the time and space complexity of all operations :) 12:46:12 foof: I'm making you aware that I consider this to be an issue, and what I would like to see get improved. 12:47:00 morphir: REPL support is one of very few things explicitly in the charter, and was one of the first tickets logged: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/ticket/4 12:47:07 We're not going to forget it :) 12:47:34 very good. But I have some sweet spots regarding what could be improved. 12:48:05 I actually foresee that most editing could be done within the repl it self 12:48:31 like what is done in ipython 12:48:32 For more concrete suggestions, would you mind waiting until we get a little more organized and move beyond fact-finding to making proposals? 12:48:43 ok, fine. 12:48:59 I've got my hands full just trying to keep the WG members on track. 12:49:51 *morphir* wants to remove the emacs-bundle stigma that goes with lisp/scheme 12:50:22 do I hear an amen? 12:50:37 *foof* just wants to remove emacs 12:50:42 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-223.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 12:52:09 "emacs-bundle stigma"? 12:52:46 foof, and replace it by...? 12:53:40 sjamaan: for doing lisp developing, one is pointed to the bloated emacs bundle that I consider unecessery 12:53:56 ah, I see 12:53:57 developement* 12:54:00 Jafet: Something better, written in Scheme or course ;) 12:54:24 morphir: Historical BSD vi used to contain a "lisp mode". I wonder what that was like 12:54:36 foof, un-huh. 12:54:41 Er, uh-huh. 12:54:46 Wait, I guess the first fits better. 12:54:55 like edwin? 12:55:12 sjamaan: if you look at the scheme mode used in SICP (1986) it looked pretty simple 12:55:14 edwin is kind of isomorphic to emacs 12:55:33 however, I dont think we need the (define) window 12:55:52 morphir: What program is that? vi? 12:56:34 edwin 12:57:29 its pretty much emacs 12:57:46 Why do you think that would be better than emacs? 12:58:04 Aside from using scheme, I don't think it's considerably less bloated, is it? 12:58:04 Lexical scoping? 12:58:19 "featureful" 12:58:22 heh 12:59:10 sjamaan: I have never used edwin, but from the videos it appeared as more scheme aware. 12:59:50 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:00:05 I would suspect so, due to it being programmed in scheme 13:00:22 I guess it's as scheme-aware as emacs is elisp-aware 13:00:54 the point I'm trying to bring home here is: I want to have everything that I need within the scheme distribution 13:01:04 that includes the editor 13:01:08 within the repl 13:01:21 You actually want to standardize having something like edwin? 13:01:23 Sorry, but what's the "scheme distribution"? 13:01:29 sjamaan: no. 13:01:38 Er, put 'the' within the quotes 13:01:40 what then? 13:01:47 Jafet: scheme distribution is an implementation 13:01:59 sjamaan: hold your breath :) 13:02:10 *sjamaan* turns purple 13:03:25 sjamaan: say you define a function interactively in the repl 13:03:39 its then in your namespace. 13:03:45 you can call it 13:03:48 of course 13:04:01 but you can also just view its source 13:04:21 by saying (my-new-function)?? 13:04:35 edwin as used in SICP lecture 1a: http://i46.tinypic.com/35i2d14.png 13:05:07 sjamaan: that will print out the definition of (my-new-function) 13:06:15 sjamaan: say you want to edit that function: edit (my-new-function) 13:06:45 morphir: Your proposal sounds nice for *a* scheme system, but it's not something I think belongs in the standard 13:06:59 that will take you into vi or emacs if you prefer... you edit your function and save it back to the repl namespace 13:08:02 sjamaan, r*rs? 13:08:11 Jafet: ? 13:08:26 Which standard is under discussion? 13:08:36 r*rs, yes 13:08:41 sjamaan: also, I want my arrow keys to work within all repls. And I want automatic indentation. 13:08:52 (pretty print) 13:08:53 (Assuming there's enough community steam to make a 7th...) 13:09:22 morphir, as a first step, we can standardize magic ponies 13:10:10 Jafet: I know this is a classic 'I want a pony' .. but hey.. it is what it is 13:11:07 I think this is neceessery to provide scheme with some momentum in the mainstream 13:11:57 I want to sit down at a new computer rig, and show a friend very quickly how cool scheme is. 13:12:15 Mainstream of {all rnrs programmers}; {lisp programmers}; or {all programmers}/{kids from PHP that nobody wants}? 13:12:20 basically lower the entry barrier 13:14:24 *I* as a geek don't want to waste time setting up and dev. enviroment. I want simplicity. 13:15:03 emacs is on every programming system, load your .emacs and go 13:15:42 Or install drscheme XD 13:16:22 Ew 13:16:48 Well, it might be suitable in morphir's case 13:19:28 -!- bokr [~user@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:50 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 13:24:58 morphir: use rlwrap 13:27:18 foof: yeah, I know 13:29:36 but basically I want this behaviour to be standtard within all scheme repls 13:29:46 that would be awesome 13:30:00 That's stupid. 13:30:14 Jafet: why is that? 13:31:09 The committee probably has little idea how other programmers want to program, and I'm sure you have none. 13:31:17 (at least scheme repls that conforms to r7rs) 13:31:17 morphir: the standard is about the language. It doesn't say what commandline options the interpreter should accept, nor how its garbage collector should work 13:31:38 By adding a subjectively "better" REPL prompt the language doesn't become any more powerful or usable 13:32:15 It just restricts implementers 13:32:36 alvatar [~alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:32:54 I understand that, but the repl is comes with every scheme implementation, that its imperativ to standardize its behaviour 13:33:11 AFAIK not all schemes come with a REPL 13:33:20 Some are pure compilers 13:33:38 You could _build_ a repl with read/eval/print but that wouldn't have these features either 13:33:46 all the ones I have tried have a repl anyways 13:33:51 (unless you're suggesting adding this functionality to READ, which I hope you aren't) 13:35:16 I wouldn't want an embedded minimal scheme to come with a full editor built-in just because you like to see that standardized 13:35:35 -!- greboides [~greboides@189-55-104-205-nd.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:40 I'm not suggesting any technical approach to solving it. 13:35:46 ? 13:35:55 not yet 13:36:20 I'm talking about the *experience*... the *what* 13:36:24 not the *how* 13:36:42 You're talking about *your* experience 13:36:48 Wave some more hands, why don't you? :) 13:37:08 "These are not the schemes you're looking for" 13:37:42 heh 13:37:43 Jafet: basically I'm talking about my experience with the ipython repl. 13:38:03 ipython is not standardized, either 13:38:41 taht might be.. but irrelevant 13:39:35 So is your opinion, I think 13:40:19 maybe. 13:40:47 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40:53 Jafet: at least I respect poeples opinions 13:45:39 ah, that's why you want it standardized.... -_- 13:47:34 sjamaan: so my point is that if a implentation conforms to r7rs, you can expect its repl to provide you with editing mode. 13:48:23 Why does an implementation have to provide an REPL? 13:48:32 morphir: By standardizing that you're excluding the whole gamut of embedded schemes and compiler-only schemes 13:48:33 and if you want to do some more advanced editing in your favorite editor, you issue edit 13:48:43 just an idle thought but wg2 may be a better place (and more receptive) for/to that opinion. 13:48:55 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:56 That way you're actively discouraging embedded schemes from being standards-conformant 13:49:25 sladegen has a point there 13:50:04 yeah, that could prove right indeed 13:50:54 nother idle thought... for example perhaps wg1 lang should have repl (i.e. global environment repercussions) forbidden... 13:51:11 sladegen: That conflicts with the charter, IIRC 13:52:17 eh, well, did not read the charter ;-o my opinions are charterless ;) 13:52:22 :) 13:52:31 sjamaan: foof said that the repl was a long-standing issue for r7rs already. 13:52:49 yes, repl semantics 13:52:53 sjamaan, you mean the part regarding embedded implementations? 13:52:54 Not repl UI 13:53:10 Embedded systems can still have REPLs; consider forth. 13:53:27 morphir: The charter requires _allowing_ a REPL to exist, as opposed to R6RS which actually explicitly forbids any REPL. 13:53:36 Jafet: Yes, but they shouldn't _have_ to contain it, and they shouldn't contain half of emacs, either 13:53:44 There's no way we'd even consider standardizing any kind of UI. 13:53:51 Well, WG1 has no say over that. 13:54:05 Jafet: Tell that to morphir 13:54:54 I've already decided to discount morphir's opinion, though. 13:55:03 Fair enough ;) 13:56:56 I was unsure weter wg1 or wg2 was the approriate place 13:59:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:56 -!- path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:21 foof: Maybe we can make a Scheme McCLIM: McSCHIM 14:16:22 ;) 14:16:31 :) 14:18:43 path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has joined #scheme 14:22:02 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:23:16 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:23:25 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:36:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:36:26 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:40:56 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:52 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-187.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:10 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-229-125.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:53:05 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:59:29 luz [~davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 14:59:34 -!- path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has quit [Quit: path[l]] 15:06:08 Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.91.255] has joined #scheme 15:10:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:13:41 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:14:53 TR2N [email@89.180.182.42] has joined #scheme 15:26:07 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:41 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:28 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 15:43:41 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 15:56:14 reynard [~alan@n11211828189.netvigator.com] has joined #scheme 16:01:39 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:02:02 Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 16:03:22 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #scheme 16:05:29 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #scheme 16:06:15 HG` [~HG@xdslgh145.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:06:16 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #scheme 16:08:08 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:37 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:07 jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has joined #scheme 16:14:36 Hex_Rex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:17 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 16:16:19 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:27 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:50 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:15 jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has joined #scheme 16:28:52 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #scheme 16:29:06 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:29:31 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:34:05 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:36:29 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.109.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:57 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:09 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:43:47 alvatar [~alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:47:07 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:35 jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has joined #scheme 16:47:40 hi 16:47:52 is there anything like doxygen for scheme? 16:48:16 that generates documentation from comments and functions? 16:48:47 -!- reynard [~alan@n11211828189.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:42 interesting question 16:50:48 well, I've seen the code from SLIB, and they use some kind of notation that probably is for such purpose 16:51:21 There exists SchemeDoc, but I know of nobody using it. 16:51:43 yeah, I'm just curious, as I don't think is so useful. 16:51:58 (I did use LAML once with some success. Related software, different problem.) 16:52:05 But I'm interested mostly in finding a somehow "standard" and uniform way to document my code 16:52:09 alvatar: there's docfish too (http://www.forcix.cx/software/docfish.html) 16:53:22 And mole 16:53:35 http://www196.pair.com/lisovsky/ad/mole 16:53:37 And schmooz, and docscm, and scmdoc 16:53:47 docfish is just that little file? 16:54:48 well I see there are options :) 16:55:12 sjamaan: is mole maintained? 16:55:34 -!- masm [~masm@bl5-105-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:55:56 I have no idea 16:55:57 Is it downloadable? 16:56:25 "chicken-setup mole" in Chicken 3 16:56:30 :) 16:56:45 *mario-goulart* facepalms 16:56:45 http://www196.pair.com/lisovsky/download/mole/ 16:56:47 "chicken mole," heh 16:57:11 Blind poultry! 16:57:20 *Daemmerung* starts grinding spices 16:58:09 alvatar: the standard, uniform way is: write clear code, and comments 16:58:20 almost nothing is standard in Scheme :-| 16:58:25 heh! 16:58:34 Then don't update those comments for two years 16:58:38 It's standard that it's not standard 16:58:48 :D 16:58:48 YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE STANDARD 16:58:53 :P 16:58:58 You want the standard?? 16:59:30 lol offby1 :) 17:00:07 mole's code is ... strange. 17:00:15 I'll just follow something like slib, or code from BlackHole for Gambit and its SRFI implementations I think 17:00:17 It's by one of the SSAX dudes 17:00:21 (afaik) 17:01:37 It contains implementations for some miscmacros macros, some srfi-1 and srfi-13 procedures (some being generic) and some other chicken procedures from other units. 17:02:28 well docfish seems simple and useful 17:02:34 (very simple) :) 17:02:47 mario-goulart: Likely because that's so in the original upstream code 17:03:24 possibly. I looks very chicken-0.xx 17:03:36 chicken-0.xx?! 17:03:51 mole isn't chicken-specific 17:03:57 I bet it's R5RS portable 17:04:15 (hence the reimplementations of srfi-1/srfi-13 stuff) 17:04:21 It uses`define-macro' for example. 17:04:28 hm 17:04:39 So does SSAX, actually 17:04:42 apparently, three semicolons are the typical definitions documentation, and two for the inner code comments. Is that right? 17:04:43 A lot, BTW. 17:05:06 Porting mole to Chicken 4 would probably be better done by reimporting a clean copy of upstream 17:05:17 (unless that contains those nasty defmacros) 17:05:39 What do you mean by upstream? 17:05:42 alvatar: yes, more or less. And single semicolons for comments in the margins 17:05:50 mario-goulart: The one on pair.com 17:05:53 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:56 ie, not the egg 17:06:38 ok :) 17:06:53 In chicken 2 and 3 people used to do some heavy hacking in external code for eggs 17:07:09 Nowadays it can be much more elegantly arranged that you only put Chicken-specific stuff in wrapper files 17:07:19 modules helped make that possible 17:07:28 and one more thing: do any of you have a GPL copyright notice for scheme code that I could copy and paste? I don't feel too creative and any of the projects I'm visiting seem to have one! 17:07:51 the one from pair.com looks cleaner. 17:08:12 alvatar: Look in a GPL project then 17:08:27 alvatar: why not take the one from gnu.org or opensource.org? 17:08:31 heheh yeah I'm doing that! 17:08:40 alvatar: However, if none of the stuff you're looking at is GPL, maybe you should consider using the most common one. It will make your code fit in better 17:08:53 www.opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical <<- pick one 17:09:10 frst! 17:09:10 maennj [~maannj@pool-98-113-42-8.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:11 even GNU if you must, ugh 17:09:18 but is it enough to say at the beginning of each file (c) my name, "look at this license file"? 17:09:32 because I don't want to have a 100lines header in each one of my files 17:09:41 Did you even *read* the GPL? 17:09:45 no 17:09:51 honestly, I have never read it 17:09:52 *sjamaan* facepalms 17:09:57 Then why do you want to use it? 17:10:04 if you haven't read it, please don't use it. read it first. 17:10:04 I know what is about :) 17:10:16 I've even been to lectures about it 17:10:19 *sladegen* would think including mere inclusion of one COPYRIGHT in the project should be enough. 17:10:30 (the GPL's text contains explicit steps on how to make it into your code) 17:10:37 *Daemmerung* would agree likewise subjunctively 17:10:53 alvatar: Please make up your own mind. read the text 17:10:54 ah, then will put a copyrith notice and then I'll see 17:11:02 copyright file... argh. 17:11:16 I want an opensource license that the people could use sharing modifications 17:11:26 unless your project is one file ;) 17:11:29 sladegen: yes, but a copyright header is worse 17:12:08 mole looks pretty nice. 17:12:27 *sjamaan* feels a new egg coming 17:12:28 :) 17:12:29 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:13:09 "There ain't noone here but us chickens" <-- singing 17:13:14 one-liner should be enough, though i'm no lawyer. 17:13:24 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:44 sladegen: well I'll use that and see in the future 17:13:47 thanks guys! :) 17:14:00 alvatar: "could use" or "must use"? 17:14:30 could... 17:15:08 must use! freedom must be protected! 17:15:11 sjamaan: it would be nice to have a chicken-4 egg for mole. Where's merlincorey? Is he jobless already? 17:15:13 :-) 17:15:21 heh! 17:15:22 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:15:56 alvatar: Then why not choose a simpler license, like the BSD or MIT licenses? 17:16:47 okay 17:16:58 Better yet; the license your Scheme system uses. People might have selected that Scheme for that license! 17:16:59 chandler: do you have a sample header to copy paste? :) 17:17:09 yep 17:17:18 alvatar: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php 17:17:22 lgpl 17:17:29 and apache 17:17:33 Just change the copyright, then use M-x comment-region . 17:17:35 (i'm using Gambit) 17:17:43 alvatar: if Apache works for then, then copy gambit 17:17:45 Look at Gambit's sources then :) 17:18:14 stealing licenses is wrong! 17:18:19 heh 17:18:24 hehehe 17:18:29 "Steal this license!" 17:18:37 actually it feels kind of wrong, ironically :D 17:18:38 ^ my new license 17:19:01 I like the "do what the f*** you want" license 17:19:15 is actually accepeted by FSF I believe 17:19:17 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 17:19:19 heh 17:19:30 The MIT license is a good legal equivalent to that. It's also compatible with all other licenses, including LGPL and Apache. 17:19:45 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:19:58 MIT is nice 17:20:27 mit says that you need to give credit to the person who wrote the original version? 17:20:34 -!- vy [~user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:38 That's BSD 17:20:44 (the old BSD one) 17:20:58 Well, depends what you mean by credit 17:21:03 "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in 17:21:04 all copies or substantial portions of the Software." 17:21:04 Both the new (3-clause) BSD and the MIT license say that the copyright notice needs to be preserved. 17:21:04 You're not allowed to remove an author's name 17:21:16 sjamaan: yeah, that's the point 17:21:24 chandler: I originally thought he was referring to the advertising clause 17:21:37 is the only thing I want, that nobody could just take it and change the name 17:21:39 The original 4-clause BSD license, which is widely considered a bad idea, requires that you include disclaimers in all advertising for any product that includes portions of the code. 17:21:48 right 17:22:03 New BSD code is usually 2 or 3 claused 17:22:21 It's generally not allowed under any circumstances to remove a copyright notice. I think this is not just part of the license, but actually part of copyright law. (IANAL.) 17:22:21 sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ 17:23:08 hehe 17:23:12 okay! so MIT 17:24:59 ;;; Licensed under the MIT license: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php 17:25:23 I wouldn't rely on external URLs being stable 17:25:39 It's better to include it either to the header of your files, or in a LICENSE file you can refer to 17:25:50 (MIT is short enough to include everywhere) 17:26:06 You also need the Copyright statement with your (company) name on it. 17:26:14 yes, but still I totally dislike to have such things always in every file 17:26:19 -!- lisptastic [~user@cpe-76-177-227-49.natcky.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:26 so I'll use a LICENSE file 17:26:28 Fair enough. But I do recommend putting the license in a LICENSE file 17:26:30 yeah 17:26:33 lisptastic [~user@76.177.226.78] has joined #scheme 17:29:02 and /LICENSE wins 1405 to 1050 versus /COPY in 'locate this | wc' contest. 17:29:17 :) 17:29:57 Is there _anything_ resembling a large standard library in Scheme? 17:30:10 r6rs and srfis 17:30:11 The SRFIs are pretty widely implemented 17:30:12 sladegen: :) hehe thanks 17:32:15 Looking at some SRFI stuff. Different Schemes can implement different parts? 17:32:45 No, generally a Scheme either implements a SRFI or not 17:32:51 But not parts of an SRFI 17:33:46 I suspect plenty of Schemes implement parts of plenty of SRFIs -- but don't advertise themselves as having done so. 17:33:57 So what's with the numbers on http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-implementers.html ? 17:34:05 Each number is a different SRFI, I guess? 17:34:17 sure 17:37:03 jcowan's spreadsheet about scheme implementations and their SRFIs has some 0.5 to indicate that some schemes don't fully implement some SRFIs. 17:46:44 I see and being used in this macros thing 17:46:51 Is and actually a syntactic thingy? 17:46:57 Oh wait, it is 17:47:06 So it can shortcircuit 17:48:08 peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:07 rudybot: eval (and #t 12 #f (release-nerve-gas-into-classroom) 'whatever) 17:53:08 Daemmerung: ; Value: #f 17:53:16 "Safe when used as directed" 17:55:50 nijm [~nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:56:03 wb nijm 17:56:36 hey 17:57:23 -!- lisptastic [~user@76.177.226.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:26 bbl 18:04:15 rudybot, eval (release-nerve-gas-into-classroom) 18:04:33 Sgeo: error: with-limit: out of time 18:07:43 rudybot: eval (release-nerve-gas-into-classroom) 18:07:43 sladegen: ; Value: "Run, Kenny, run!" 18:09:21 ??? 18:09:38 Is it some definition you have, or is it because of the : vs ,? 18:09:50 rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has joined #scheme 18:11:00 Sgeo: /msg rudybot eval (define (release-nerve-gas-into-classroom) "Run, Kenny, run!") 18:11:28 So, local definitions per person 18:11:31 global state ;) and sout parka reference. 18:11:39 rudybot: eval (define (silly) "Let's dress as Pilgrims") 18:11:41 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 18:11:47 rudybot: eval (silly) 18:11:47 *offby1: ; Value: "Let's dress as Pilgrims" 18:11:48 Slom [~a@pD9EB39B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:09 rudybot: eval (silly) 18:12:10 *offby1: ; Value: "I defined this in secret" 18:12:32 incubot: can you do the global state mamba? 18:12:35 It depends on serious, global static support. 18:13:05 -!- peter_12 [~peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: peter_12] 18:14:19 incubot: what's better -- smoked, salted pork; or Belgian ale? 18:14:22 I get bacon from this local farm/dairy that makes excellent smoked bacon. SO GOOD. 18:14:27 noted. 18:15:44 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 18:16:54 path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has joined #scheme 18:17:25 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:21:33 -!- jengle [~jengle@64.252.88.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:00 path[l]_ [~path@122.167.247.111] has joined #scheme 18:25:09 -!- path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:09 -!- path[l]_ is now known as path[l] 18:28:10 do a lot of people here use s48? 18:30:41 -!- nijm [~nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:49 rogue: scheme schell is built ontop of s48 18:31:01 *shell 18:31:41 -!- path[l] [~path@122.167.247.111] has left #scheme 18:31:43 unfornutaly they have refused to port scheme shell to 64bit 18:32:24 *morphir* has always wanted a pure scheme shell 18:36:01 scsh isn't what I'd call a shell: it's not designed for interactive use 18:36:14 offby1: its not? 18:37:36 nope 18:37:41 scripting only 18:37:49 ah. 18:37:52 typing all those parens and quotes is a bit tedious 18:37:58 it doesn't integrate with readline 18:37:58 I never used it so.. 18:38:05 I guessed as much :) 18:38:13 offby1: what scheme implementation do you use? drscheme/plt? 18:38:16 yep 18:38:19 rudybot: eval (banner) 18:38:20 me2 18:38:20 *offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.5 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 18:38:28 guess I should upgrade the bot 18:38:38 probably 18:38:46 "commander s" was to be the interactive component of scsh. vaporware. 18:38:52 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslgh145.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:01 Need to get 41.2MB of archives. 18:39:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:43:08 dr.scheme is awefully slow tho when the namespace starts filling up 18:43:33 thats a major pita with dr.scheme 18:44:08 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-6-19.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:44:26 which leads me to ask, are there a way to print the current namespace from the interactive repl mode? 18:45:14 probably. 18:45:26 There's a lot of functions whose names include "namespace"; I've never really understood them 18:46:32 morphir: depends on the scheme, psyntax (well the ikarus version) has an ENVIRONMENT-SYMBOLS procedure, that accepts an environment parameter 18:47:12 obviously you can just pass (INTERACTION-ENVIRONMENT) into it 18:48:58 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@242.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:18 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 18:55:01 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:00:11 leppie: I got the ikarus repl here 19:00:56 morphir: try (environment-symbols (interaction-environment)) 19:00:57 leppie: what exactly should I call to see the current namespace? 19:01:01 ahh 19:01:11 you dont have a namespace, just a list of bindings 19:01:16 *offby1* got the horse right here 19:01:22 his name is Paul Revere. 19:01:24 *offby1* nods gravely 19:01:26 it's composite thing 19:01:28 :) 19:02:47 leppie: very cool. Thanks :) 19:02:55 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:03:20 leppie: can I cat the source too? 19:03:36 what do you mean? 19:03:40 pretty-print it 19:03:52 Daemmerung, it is not true that Commander S is vapourware. It is abandonware, but the implementation does exist, at . 19:03:57 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y9e8fso 19:04:01 mmm, its a list, how much prettier do you need it? 19:04:16 wrap it in xml 19:04:28 say I want to see the source of (add1) 19:05:07 19:05:14 my eyes 19:05:14 ahh so much better :) 19:05:53 morphir, nobody has `refused' to make scsh run on 64-bit systems; it is simply that scsh has been basically abandoned, and nobody has offered to port it to 64-bit systems. 19:05:56 morphir: that is a lot more trickier 19:06:30 and probably not possible without modifying source heavily, but it would be nice to have 19:07:53 i think ikarus has some apropos procedure too, that will list libraries of a binding 19:09:51 well, you could have DEFINE be a macro that stashes the source somewhere 19:14:46 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:24 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 19:21:44 -!- Slom [~a@pD9EB39B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:22:55 zmanning [~zmanning@c-24-20-40-207.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:31 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:36 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:20 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:38:38 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:41:28 -!- nickjd [~76ed8f62@gateway/web/freenode/x-mldwlnvzajecnbhh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:43 leppie: how would you go about checking up a function in the namespace? 19:47:59 are there a online webpage for ikarus that documents the source? 19:49:30 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:09 Riastradh: fyi, default shell on ubuntu (DASH) barfs on Setup.sh. 19:51:09 What does it barf on in particular? 19:51:44 kuatto [~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:39 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:14 -!- tizoc is now known as bruno 19:53:22 I don't remember the details. (new trap handling code I think) I could boot my ubuntu box i guess... 19:53:44 -!- bruno is now known as Guest55008 19:54:00 -!- Guest55008 is now known as tizoc 19:54:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:55:51 Please do... I don't have any hosts handy running Ubuntu. 19:57:57 for what do you represent s-expressions in xml? 20:01:03 mejja pasted "DASH failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96016 20:01:35 That looks like a bug in dash. Can you run `trap "echo foo" SIGINT' in it? 20:03:13 Oh, argh. 20:03:15 Grmble. 20:09:47 virl: there are modules that converts I think 20:09:57 from one to another 20:10:09 modules for which scheme? 20:10:14 but, I depends on your scheme implementation 20:10:18 lets see 20:10:28 mejja, fixed. 20:10:51 virl: http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#xml 20:10:53 thank you. 20:18:48 I seem to recall that you had several outstanding bug reports, too, about whose content I have thoroughly forgotten. 20:21:19 *mejja* waits for jrm to get his act together and fix SF 20:25:09 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:26:40 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:57 Riastradh: try (char-set->regexp char-set:newline) 20:27:04 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:31:20 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:43 Argh. 20:31:46 How do I undo `git add foo'? 20:32:30 git help rm 20:32:40 I hope that `git reset --mixed' did no more than that. 20:33:33 I'm not a git wizard... 20:34:03 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:34:22 haole [~ivan@189.34.164.213] has joined #scheme 20:34:27 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 20:35:20 hello there... i'm trying to make every word in a string, separated by spaces to become numbers in a list for a while and i'm having a lot of difficulty... could someone give me a hint on this? 20:36:57 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:38:38 I'm not sure I understand your question 20:40:10 Arelius, like a csv reader, but with spaces as separators 20:41:39 Ok... 20:43:21 Arelius, what is the end of line character in scheme? i can't find it anywhere... it would help me a lot 20:43:35 something like (string-split "my string of stuff" #\space) ?? 20:43:37 like #\a is a, #\" is double quote, but eol i just can't find 20:43:54 #\newline ? 20:44:25 Nick_ [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:44:33 -!- Nick_ [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:33 thanks... i couldn't find it in my book anywhere 20:44:37 There should also be #\return 20:45:06 #\newline is standard; #\return is not. 20:45:09 haole, what book is that? 20:45:14 Arelius, wow, my function almost worked from that... i was looking for this #\newline guy for half an hour :D 20:45:20 Riastradh: indeed 20:45:21 Riastradh: you wanted to submit MIT Scheme package. 20:45:28 it's not a book, it's gambit's documentation in fact 20:45:48 ...Speaking about Almquist shell. 20:45:56 Nick_ [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:46:06 haole, in addition to that, you should refer to . 20:46:23 -!- Nick_ is now known as Guest72386 20:46:44 ASau, yep, as soon as Chris finds the time to release the snapshot... 20:46:50 -!- Guest72386 [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:21 nijm [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:47:57 Those lectures in the topic are really interesting. I've just watched the first one. 20:48:27 Riastradh, thanks for the ligt 20:48:29 light :D 20:48:48 -!- maennj [~maannj@pool-98-113-42-8.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: maennj] 20:49:49 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:52:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:17 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 21:00:30 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:01:31 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:05:59 maennj [~maannj@pool-98-113-42-8.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:17:47 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has joined #scheme 21:21:04 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:22 hello there... i still can't seem to be able to use the read procedure to make me a list of every datum in some port or string of mine... can someone give me a hint on this? 21:22:22 i'm trying to read just one line from the port, then i'm splitting every datum in a list of strings that represents each datum, converting each of these strings in numbers (they are always numbers) but then i get a lot of '() in my lists that i can't seem to filter 21:22:25 If you explain what you have tried, sure. 21:22:37 these '() come from whitespaces 21:22:38 If you have written any code, please use lisppaste to show it: 21:22:38 lisppaste: url 21:22:38 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 21:22:48 ok... let me prepare it... :D 21:22:57 (Scheme is a much more precise language than English for this sort of thing.) 21:24:19 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 21:25:05 Riastradh, the problem seems to be my split function... it should eliminate all the white spaces, but it keeps creating "" strings for it... let me paste it 21:25:45 haole pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96019 21:26:03 Riastradh, there 21:26:45 By the way, is this an exercise for a class? 21:28:47 Riastradh, no... i'm trying to learn scheme and develop a real project while at it 21:28:58 i need to make my program comunicate with a SPICE simulator 21:29:05 OK. So, what exactly is your SPLIT procedure supposed to do? 21:29:14 Please explain precisely, and perhaps give an example or two to demonstrate. 21:29:30 Riastradh, fearing that nooby students are asking you for their exercises? 21:30:03 like this: ((split #\space) "a b c") -> ("a" "b" "c") 21:30:13 however, it will eliminate just one whitespace 21:30:16 -!- maennj [~maannj@pool-98-113-42-8.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: maennj] 21:30:18 and the other two will be "" 21:30:21 virl, if it were an exercise, then the class might already have a precise description for it, so that haole would not need to give one, and the exercise may have constraints that I don't know about. 21:30:34 so, the actual result is ("a" "b" "" "" "c") 21:30:50 i'm trying to figure it out how to make my function chop any number of whitespaces 21:31:13 it is not yet implemented and i can't think of a way of doing it without lots of ifs and stuff 21:31:25 i'm guessing that there might be an easier way 21:33:45 haole, if I understand your description correctly, then everything you've written is OK, except for the use of READ-LINE. Can you explain what READ-LINE does? (Look it up if necessary, but explain in your own words.) 21:35:28 i just figured out that using read-all solves my problem almost completly... read-line is supposed to be like this: 21:35:35 (read-line string separator) 21:35:49 and it will return a list of strings, splitted in each separator 21:35:57 No, READ-LINE doesn't return a list of strings. 21:36:09 here, it seems to do so... :| 21:36:11 lemme check 21:36:23 _pr0t0type_1 [~prototype@cpe-69-201-142-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:36:29 Try it at the REPL: (read-line (open-input-string "foo bar baz") #\space) 21:36:31 Riastradh, oh, you're right... 21:36:50 Next, try (read-line (open-input-string " foo bar baz") #\space). 21:36:58 I must be messing up somewhere earlier then... let me ask you one last different question, if you let me... 21:37:01 <_pr0t0type_1> Hello everyone. Question: how do I swap con cell values? In other words, how do I write a swap procedure? 21:37:09 -!- zmanning [~zmanning@c-24-20-40-207.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:39 Riastradh, oh, i think i saw the solution... wait :D 21:38:45 haole, you can use READ-LINE to solve your problem, with a loop that discards empty strings as you see them. You could also write your own procedure that uses an output string and two loops, one to skip leading spaces and one to accumulate non-whitespace in the output string. As an exercise, you could try writing both. 21:38:55 _pr0t0type_1: well, given a pair (a . b), what does the swapped value look like? 21:41:43 nickjd [~76ec550a@gateway/web/freenode/x-ibgabjgkhbvjqygm] has joined #scheme 21:42:34 <_pr0t0type_1> elly: Im not sure I understand the question. All I want to do is this: (swap (car list) (car (cdr list)) /* Provided that (cdr list) has the proper base case to be car'ed*]. So that at the (car list) place in the list, the values con cell values (car list) and (car (cdr list)) are swapped. I'm not sure if the global binding in scheme is immutable. Meaning, can I change the values of a cons cell, once it has been created? 21:42:50 Riastradh, gonna try that... thanks for the explanations 21:42:59 -!- kuatto [~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:47 _pr0t0type_1: you didn't just write a function declaration, and no, in most implementations CONS produces an immutable cons cell 21:43:58 In most implementations? 21:44:03 Which ones besides PLT Scheme? 21:45:38 :nfi:, Riastradh :P I only use PLT, so I guess I am not qualified to say that 21:45:43 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-187.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:23 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:49:23 Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 21:50:14 hey people. Trying to use an xml parser for the first time. Using guile and trying to extract and distribute ssax from guile-lib to my software (which has Guile in it). 21:50:26 Anybody has experience with xml parsing in scheme? 21:50:49 I can't figure out what is the simplest way to start. 21:55:44 kuatto [~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:44 alvatar [~alvatar@42.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 21:56:00 phao [~phao@189.107.223.74] has joined #scheme 21:58:26 PLT has some stuff built in that's easy to use 21:58:41 ssax works well on a bunch of systems 21:59:19 Does anyone happen to know how to tame `less'? (which I'm semi forced to use due to git) 21:59:30 eli, what do you want to do with it? 22:00:25 Riastradh: The default flags that git provides work generally well, except when I'm at the top of a window and the text is shorter than the screen. 22:00:41 It then insists on printing enough blank lines to show the output at the bottom. 22:00:45 Hit ^L. 22:01:29 -!- borism_ [~boris@213-35-234-24-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:34 That won't work since it's set to quit when the output is shorter than the screen. 22:01:47 Huh? 22:02:05 So it shows the empty lines, then the text, then immediately quits, and I have a thing with my xterms being all tidy... 22:02:21 borism [~boris@213-35-234-24-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:02:26 Strange. I've never seen that. 22:02:38 I know there's a --quit-at-eof option, but I'm not sure if it's relevant 22:02:53 Does `echo foo | less' have the same effect? 22:03:00 The quit option is -F 22:03:11 eli: see core.pager, $GIT_PAGER, $LESS 22:03:12 So to see it do: echo foo | less -F 22:03:33 Oh. It sounds as though this is a problem not with less(1) but with Git. 22:03:45 In that case I can't help you. 22:03:54 cmatei: Yes, I know how to control it, but I can't find a setting to avoid it showing these empty lines. 22:04:20 Riastradh: I get that annoyance with just that (echo foo | less -F), so it's not git that is doing anything bad. 22:04:26 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:04:31 Sure, so don't pass -F. 22:04:39 Oh, you can pipe the output of Git to less(1) by hand. 22:05:06 -!- Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 22:05:12 I think you can tell git not to use a pager with an environment variable like GIT_PAGER. 22:05:16 Not using -F makes things even more annoying... 22:05:17 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:37 eli, what is the behaviour you want? 22:05:42 Yes, I also know how to disable it -- that's what I started with "semi-forced" -- it's nice to have less. 22:06:18 Riastradh: start a new xterm, run "echo foo | less -F", what I want is for the output to look the same as if you did "echo foo". 22:06:29 zmanning [~zmanning@c-24-20-40-207.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:32 Can anybody spot anything wrong with this? http://library.readscheme.org/ It's trying to see whether a guess at a square root is close enough to the real answer 22:06:53 -!- _pr0t0type_1 [~prototype@cpe-69-201-142-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:22 When I do (good-enough? '5 '36), I get object -11 is not applicable. 22:07:26 OK, eli. I'm afraid I don't know how to do that. 22:07:36 nijm, gee, I don't see your code at . 22:08:24 Riastradh: Yeah, it's a peculiar issue. (And like I said, I have a thing with xterms being clean -- I even have a key bound to make the terminal reset: C-l is not enough for me.) 22:08:25 eli: maybe less -FX ? 22:09:13 cmatei: No -- and the fact that this doesn't work makes me think that less is *intentionally* adding these lines. 22:09:29 (Therefore I suspect that there must be some way to disable this.) 22:09:46 Time to UTS, I think, L. 22:10:01 Riastradh, neither do I 22:10:18 nijm, perhaps your source is at a different URI from the one you gave? 22:10:35 (UTS?) 22:11:06 eli, in one FLIA: UTSL. (Expansion: Use the source, Luke!) 22:11:14 (`FLIA': Four-Letter Internet Acronym.) 22:11:24 is there a function in scheme to do something like this: (drop-tail '(0 1 2 3 4 5) 3) -> '(0 1 2 3)? or similar 22:11:51 haole, yes, see DROP-RIGHT from SRFI 1 . I don't know offhand the easiest way to get at SRFI 1 from Gambit. 22:11:59 Riastradh: Ah, splitting it confused me. In any case, the number of things less can do makes me think that this will not be easy. 22:12:00 (It may be just to fetch the reference implementation and load that up.) 22:12:09 -!- kuatto [~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:28 Riastradh, sorry :-\ it's actually here -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/96023 It's because I'm used to just hilighting things to copy them, but I'm in windows today 22:14:23 nijm: mixing pascal and scheme (abs) 22:14:44 cmatei, I defined abs 22:15:19 yes, but it's (abs x) not abs(x) 22:15:27 nijm, when you write (< abs ((- ...)) '0.01), you are asking Scheme whether the following numbers are in ascending order: the value of the variable ABS, the value of applying (- ...) to no arguments, and the number 0.01. 22:16:29 Riastradh, so what I really meant was (< (abs(... 22:16:35 I'll give that a shot 22:18:17 rudybot: eval (< (map abs 3 4 -5 6)) 22:18:17 *offby1: error: map: expects type as 2nd argument, given: 3; other arguments were: # 4 -5 6 22:18:25 rudybot: eval (< (map abs (list 3 4 -5 6))) 22:18:26 *offby1: error: <: expects at least 2 arguments, given 1: (3 4 5 6) 22:18:31 rudybot: eval (apply < (map abs (list 3 4 -5 6))) 22:18:32 *offby1: ; Value: #t 22:18:33 *sigh* 22:18:35 eli, looks like less does all its output in the secondary screen, and would need to be hacked a bit to change its mind about that. You could probably do this with a simple intermediate program that reads in a buffer at most the size of the terminal, and feeds it to less if the buffer fills up. 22:18:53 That is, I imagine that such an intermediate program would be easier to write than less would be to hack. 22:20:00 Riastradh: Yes, that's what it looked like. Do you know if there's any name for this secondary screen thing? (Something to use for googling.) 22:20:32 (And I agree with the fact that it's easier to write a wrapper, but that's one more headache to worry about.) 22:22:31 I thought it was called something like the `secondary screen' or `secondary window' or something, but perhaps I mixed that up with a different name. 22:22:40 Riastradh, I think my abs definition is wrong 22:22:50 I've pasted it on the original page 22:23:27 -!- Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.91.255] has quit [] 22:24:32 Actually, I'll have to sort this later 22:24:37 ttfn all! 22:24:41 -!- haole [~ivan@189.34.164.213] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:24:43 -!- nijm [~Nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:07 Riastradh: "Alternate screen" seems to be it. 22:26:24 kuatto [~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:24 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:12 ...and "XTerm*titeInhibit: True" disables it, yet less insists on doing its thing. 22:27:31 You could run everything inside screen(1). 22:27:59 Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has joined #scheme 22:28:02 (I'll avoid commenting on that...) 22:28:38 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:28:57 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:59 It does exhibit the behaviour you want for `echo foo | less -F', and it is handy in other circumstances as well... 22:29:49 Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has joined #scheme 22:30:40 Riastradh: Indeed, this is related to the terminfo entry, and http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/noaltscreen.html seems to be a good description of how to deal with it. 22:31:59 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:07 `Unfortunately, many modern terminal emulators such as gnome-terminal have decided for our own good that users should not be allowed to make choices.' I guess, strictly chronologically speaking, gnome-terminal is `more modern' than other terminal emulators...but being modern makes it no less irksome to use! 22:33:29 (I use urxvt myself, whose only irksome property as far as I have observed is that it has a `feature' whereby Control-Shift freaks it out and inputs garbage to the tty.) 22:33:34 Riastradh: One reason I religiously stick by xterm. 22:35:35 gnome-terminal has this wonderful feature whereby Meta or something makes gnome-terminal open up its menus, rather than just sending ESC and the modified key (which gets interpreted instead as a menu item, I think!) to the tty. 22:37:07 I tried gnome-terminal for a very short period. The lack of options was enough to make me run back to xterm. 22:38:25 cmd? 22:38:27 *Sgeo* ducks 22:38:32 ? 22:40:14 Sgeo: You mean the windows pathetic excuse for something that is supposed to resemble a distant cousine of something that was once kind of like an application that is called "a terminal"? 22:40:25 *Sgeo* was joking 22:40:27 >.> 22:46:30 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:19 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.78.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:56:50 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:48 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@42.233.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:18 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:04:37 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:05:26 Len_ [~Len@77.127.140.192] has joined #scheme 23:05:48 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:41 mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 23:24:13 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:24:43 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 23:29:09 maennj [~maannj@pool-98-113-42-8.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:46 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-232-182.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme