00:01:58 arcfide [arcfide@140-182-226-156.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 00:06:09 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 00:09:00 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 00:09:28 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 00:09:42 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:13:19 -!- arcfide [arcfide@140-182-226-156.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:19 arcfide [arcfide@140-182-226-156.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 00:29:36 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:30:47 are you talking about comp.lang.scheme or something? 00:32:23 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 00:33:21 no, a running debate onLtU 00:33:54 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:41 URL? 00:40:57 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.244.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:41:55 found it, just the latest post on LtU: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3845 00:42:59 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 00:45:39 speaking of FEXPR, has anyone read jshutt's papers? 00:45:46 I'm trying to get him to speak at the BLM... 00:46:25 cd 00:47:20 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:53:37 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-15-67.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:53 More FEXPRs? :-| 00:55:23 mmm, FEXPRs 00:55:37 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:57:50 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:40 minion: chant 00:58:40 MORE FEXPRS 00:58:50 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 01:02:12 pjb` [~t@95.124.64.51] has joined #scheme 01:03:01 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:39 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.64.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:02 Fare, his semantics are TBD 01:04:22 he has no papers, just a pdf on his web page 01:05:09 -!- masm [~masm@bl5-106-209.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:05:43 Is that bad? 01:06:22 Daemmerung, it's not bad 01:06:46 but what he has is pretty far from the fully-worked out story that lots of people act like he has 01:07:00 samth: you may not be "in a position where nice is required", but remember: beating your enemy is one thing, beating them *and having the moral high ground so they look like an utter moron* is something else entirely ;-) 01:07:16 alaricsp: +1 01:08:12 clearly you are unfamiliar with usenet :) 01:08:32 You can break every bone in somebody's body... but if they then sit there meekly while you splint and bandage them, then thank you afterwards, you've broken their spirit, too! 01:08:34 ;-) 01:08:57 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 01:09:07 *samth* says good night all 01:09:11 samth: Gotcha, thanks. Wasn't planning on reading the paper, or on staying abreast of the LtU imbroglio for that matter. 01:09:24 there was a plisp which could provide semantics for fexpr 01:09:40 it's easy to provide 'a' semantics 01:09:45 the trick is to provide a good one :) 01:09:46 polysomething lisp 01:09:55 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 01:10:33 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 01:11:58 ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has joined #scheme 01:13:00 polycontextural lisp 01:18:48 what's the scheme version of PROGN? 01:19:46 necroforest: `begin' 01:20:06 thanks 01:25:52 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 01:29:12 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 01:30:51 no, it's more like (begin #f ...) 01:32:52 It is? 01:33:33 Oh, for an empty body? 01:35:19 (begin) isn't legal? PLT accepts it 01:35:36 rudybot: eval (begin) 01:35:45 (BEGIN) works for me too. :-) 01:35:59 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:07 heathens 01:36:41 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:52 It's valid in a top-level context and where internal definitions are allowed. 01:37:12 I don't think (lambda () 3 (begin)) is valid. 01:37:21 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:37:45 ... and indeed, PLT does not accept it. 01:38:23 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:36 -!- mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:25 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:35 the BEGIN of expressions vs the BEGIN of definitions 01:46:49 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:11 phao [~phao@189.107.244.120] has joined #scheme 01:48:26 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:31 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:54:36 Yes, there's a lot of hair in this whole area. 01:55:33 I don't see why (lambda () 3 (begin) 4) ought to be disallowed, personally, but then again I don't see why (lambda () 3 (define a 4) a) ought to be disallowed. 02:02:50 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 02:08:12 How do you determine if two symbols are equal? 02:08:28 I tried symbol=? but i got an undefined symbol for that 02:08:33 (i'm using GNU Guile) 02:10:17 What specifically are you looking for? Does `eq?' do what you want? 02:10:36 sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-141-157-183-82.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:10:46 yeah, i think so 02:10:52 chandler: What happens in this case? (let () (define (x y) (set! r y)) (x 3) (define r 5) r) => ? 02:11:05 I saw symbol=? somewhere online, i guess it was for a different version of scheme 02:11:13 I just found in the guile documents to use eq? 02:11:45 arcfide: The same thing that happens in (let () (define (x y) (set! r y)) (define (x 3)) (define r 5) r), of course. 02:11:51 I didn't read that code, only rewrote it. 02:12:13 And the answer is, "it's an error." 02:12:43 necroforest: Why are you using Guile? 02:12:48 (Out of curiosity.) 02:13:10 chandler, just playing with it 02:13:31 is there a preferred scheme implementation? 02:13:48 If there is, Guile probably isn't it. 02:14:02 what's wrong with Guile then? 02:16:17 It possesses an unhealthy combination of dubious semantics and poor execution speed. 02:16:50 ok 02:16:51 (Though the upcoming 2.x version reputedly addresses the semantics part of this.) 02:17:03 I usually recommend PLT Scheme to those who don't have any other basis for choosing an implementation. 02:17:08 ah. 02:17:14 Can you embed PLT scheme in other programs? 02:17:22 Yes. 02:17:28 OK. I'll check it out 02:17:46 next question: How do you "splice" a list into the args of a function? 02:18:06 ie., I have a list "lst" and i want to or everything together: (or lst) 02:18:30 which would expand to something like (or '(#t #t #f)) 02:18:39 but obviously or doesn't understand a list as an argument 02:18:55 `or' isn't a function, so this is a bit of a trick question! 02:19:46 well, it would apply to any function/macro/built-in-form that takes a variable number of arguments 02:20:15 It doesn't work like that for macros; macros exist only at compile time, whereas your list exists only at runtime. 02:20:32 interesting 02:20:39 By the time your list even exists, the macro is long gone and only its expansion remains. 02:20:49 yeah, that's a good point 02:20:59 unless i'm building the list inside another macro 02:21:17 Well, that's a very different question and scenario. 02:22:04 *arcfide* calls for De Morgan. 02:22:57 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.244.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:20 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: schemer999] 02:23:36 I take it there's no built in function for or'ing a list? 02:23:39 or and'ing 02:23:51 I guess you'd just have to write one with reduce 02:23:53 phao [~phao@189.107.244.120] has joined #scheme 02:23:56 necroforest: Why do you take it that no such function exists? 02:24:08 necroforest: R6RS: (not (for-all not lst)). 02:24:40 There is such a function as part of SRFI-1. It would be written as (any values '(#t #f #t)) . 02:24:40 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:24:50 ah 02:24:56 rudybot: eval (any values '(#t #f #t)) 02:24:57 chandler: error: eval:1:0: any: use of 'any' outside of an arrow contract in: (any values (quote (#t #f #t))) 02:25:04 Gack. 02:25:08 rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) 02:25:12 rudybot: eval (any values '(#t #f #t)) 02:25:12 chandler: ; Value: #t 02:25:26 rudybot: eval (every values '(#t #f #t)) 02:25:27 chandler: ; Value: #f 02:25:40 The `values' there is a cute shorthand for (lambda (x) x) . 02:25:44 what does the values do? 02:25:45 oh 02:26:10 `values' is a function which returns its arguments as values. When called with one argument, it's the identity function. 02:27:20 chandler: I like mine better. :-) 02:28:11 If WG1 actually makes multiple values optional, then `identity' ought to be provided, even though it's obviously easy to write out longhand. 02:28:20 arcfide: Yours does something different than mine, though! 02:28:28 Oh? 02:28:55 Oh, no, I had thought that `not' only accepted booleans for some reason. 02:29:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:26 Which it ought to, but that's an argument for another day. 02:43:24 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 02:44:03 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:52:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:03 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:19 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:45 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 03:12:29 -!- arcfide [arcfide@140-182-226-156.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 03:18:15 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:20:59 *jcowan* unvanishes. 03:22:10 *foof* wakes up 03:22:31 No SC meeting today again. Jonathan and I showed up, that's it. 03:22:31 It's already noon, of course, but I went to sleep at 4. 03:22:34 I grow weary of this. 03:23:54 The SC really needs to elect a convener who will actually convene them. 03:24:25 samth [~samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:32:52 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 03:32:55 -!- skld is now known as das 03:33:15 -!- das [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 03:38:01 schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:39:01 arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-50-227-202.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:43:34 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@adsl-99-50-227-202.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:12 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:40 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:54:46 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:56:07 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:01:23 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-227-202.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:53 Has Mr. Lord provided a correct R6RS program that a particular fully compliant R6RS implementation does not evaluate? 04:03:33 Umm, what brought that on? 04:05:09 jcowan: Oh, I'm just wondering. I'm having trouble tracking his essays on fexprs, but I've seen this claim in a few places, but my searching has failed to turn up the proper example. 04:05:59 Not to mention that I recently had a quick chat with Dr. Friedman about Fexprs. :-) 04:08:27 *jcowan* confesses his ignorance of Dr. Friedman. 04:08:37 Unless he's your psychiatrist. 04:09:11 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dfried/ 04:09:49 Ah, excellent. And what did he have to say about Fexprs? 04:10:50 I don't think -t has anything at all to say about R6RS, except maybe that it isn't intended to support a REPL, so it is irrelevant to him. 04:11:46 -!- Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12:03 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:32 He of course mentioned the Mitch Wand paper on them -- at least I think that's the right one -- and he thought they were a great, wonderfully powerful construct, that, having been invoked, gives one full control, thereby enabling every Scheme programmer to completely lose control. 04:12:40 At least, that's what I got out of our quick little chat. 04:14:28 I believe that he indicated you gained very little from macros, and stood to lose a whole lot. 04:14:31 It's all irrelevant - it's not a suitable topic to distract WG1 with. 04:14:43 In a Theodore Sturgeon story, a human asks an AI, "If I eliminate the President, how can I assure full personal control?" The AI replies, "Don't eat a bit till your execution." 04:14:45 s/from macros/from fexprs compared to macros/ 04:14:59 foof: Indeed. 04:15:03 s/bit/bite 04:15:33 Well, it's marginally relevant to our formal semantics. Historic semantics accounts haven't given any account of macros, just assumed that they've all been preprocessed out. 04:15:39 Kusanagi [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 04:15:52 He told me in private mail roughly what his proposal involved, and it requires both changing the semantics of procedure application (to check if the operand is an fexpr) and somehow capturing and preserving the compile-time environment for use at runtime. 04:15:53 Personally I don't care if there is a formal semantics or not, but that's just me. 04:16:02 jcowan: Heathen. 04:16:07 Indeed. 04:17:24 Guidelines aside, we have to think overall in terms of the actual _goal_ of WG1, which is to produce a standard that get more widespread support than R6RS. 04:17:28 foof: Well, that's what SCM does, except it compiles away the macros used in a procedure when it's first run. Jar says that at least some CLs do that too. 04:17:55 Well, I'm sorry that jrm overreacted: I urged him not to, perhaps too late. 04:18:12 jcowan: Yes, because SCM is a pure interpreter. That's extremely hard to do with a proper compiler that separates compilation from execution. 04:18:25 -!- samth [~samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:19:32 *jcowan* agrees. 04:19:35 None of the R5RS _compilers_ would be open to making any of those changes. We have to be looking at things that they would realistically consider. 04:20:05 Libraries are fine, core semantic changes (from R5RS) need to be already widely implemented. 04:20:09 foof: Well, I agree in general, but I'm not sure it is an explicit goal of WG1 to be more popular than R6RS, is it? 04:20:12 Of course. I don't think -t is proposing otherwise, merely to give an account of the semantics in terms of fexprs, while restricting them so they have only the expressive power of macros. 04:20:29 arcfide: If it weren't, we wouldn't be starting a new round of Scheme standardization. 04:21:13 arcfide: Read between the lines. Why do you think they put this standard _in_between_ R5 and R6 instead of as an extension to R6? 04:21:19 At least, not so soon. And it would be built on R6. 04:21:39 So the tacit mandate of WG1 is "Fix R5" and of WG2 is "Fix R6". 04:23:06 All of which I tried to sum up in my first message to the list, in a pre-emptive effort to stave off fexpr discussion which failed miserably. 04:25:39 It was a valiant effort. 04:27:53 +1 04:31:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:47 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: off to Tokyo] 04:36:27 -t on SCM: "essentially a hand-compiled partial evaluation of a 04:36:27 simple Scheme compiler coded in a lazy, functional style, composed 04:36:27 with a simple, imperative and eager-style graph-code interpreter". 04:37:47 Which makes it sound a whole lot more reasonable than it actually is. 04:48:05 *jcowan* weighs in on the side of SRFIs as against R6RS. 04:48:07 in general 04:49:20 *jcowan* personally thinks R6RS deviated for the sake of deviation in some cases. 04:52:01 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:52:09 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:59 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.200.170] has left #scheme 05:07:36 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:08:51 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:11 there do seem to be some major clashes between SRFIs and R6RS 05:16:34 for example, (library) and (program) 05:16:55 adu: Some of them are indeed cosmetic, though some are technical. 05:17:25 adu: R6RS did purposefully deviate in some cases, I think, to avoid name clashes. 05:17:37 I'm still not sure I like the condition system. 05:17:52 i thought (library) couldn't be implemented as a macro for (module) or something... 05:18:14 adu: It can't. Libraries can't be generated by a macro. 05:18:22 :-) 05:18:57 It's really obnoxious that there are two "object" systems, or rather three: the syntactic records system, the semi-compatible procedural records system, and the totally incompatible condition system. 05:19:01 There Should Be Only One. 05:19:15 yuck 05:19:44 what happened to goops? and clos? 05:20:01 jcowan: I agree. Moreover, I think that we could actually get away with getting rid of the condition system in favor of a handler + error procedure(s) mechanism. I don't know that I would get support for such a thing. 05:20:05 Nothing. They just aren't R6RS. 05:20:31 I think the *exception* system is reasonable, I'm just not sure there's support for it in WG1. 05:20:53 The SC and I made quite sure that WG2 is not in any way bound by the R6RS. Indeed, they insisted on it. 05:21:59 Records have single inheritance and form a tree; conditions have multiple inheritance and are flat. 05:22:07 Is Big Mess. 05:22:42 Da, Comrade. 05:23:04 -!- dmoerner [~dmr@90-84.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:24:13 I come by the title honestly: my grandfather was an ethnic German from Russia and former member of the Spartakusbund 05:25:00 Adamant: ? 05:25:26 adu: nope :P 05:25:46 I don't speak anything Slavic, sorry. 05:25:50 I say "former" because he's dead. 05:26:10 ah. RIP, then 05:26:27 not that he would probably think that had any meaning if he was a good Communist :P 05:26:27 jcowan: You think that raise, raise-continuable, guard, and with-exception-handler are all necessary and or the right way? 05:26:44 jcowan: I assume that by the exception system you are talking about these four constructs. 05:26:45 nit: "was" implies that. "was a former" implies he was no longer while he still .. was. 05:27:03 aspect: depends on the group 05:27:15 jcowan: how would you design the object system? 05:27:34 *aspect* finds it much safer to comment on English than Scheme; efforts of those doing the latter are lauded 05:27:54 IIRC "former Marine" is less insulting than "ex-Marine" to previously employed members of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children 05:28:23 you aren't a "ex-Marine" unless you really, really screwed up 05:28:53 Adamant: fair enough, but referring to one who was a Marine until he died in battle as "once a former Marine" seems silly to me 05:29:19 aspect: this is English, it's all really silly :P 05:29:29 granted :) 05:29:43 at least Scheme is consiste... oops, no trolling in channel :) 05:30:07 saying English isn't consistent is like saying water is wet :P 05:30:34 We should all go out on a trolling fest some time again. 05:31:00 The last time, as I recall, some of us were quite successful. 05:31:08 please don't; I had to take a holiday from this channel because the righteousness got too much for me 05:31:30 arcfide: all you do is troll wg1 05:31:38 adu: I'm happy with just SRFI-9(9) for standardization purposes. 05:31:47 arcfide: yes. 05:31:50 aspect: Woah, troll in this channel? No no! I meant troll the *other* language channels. Like haskell. :-) 05:32:05 Haskell is Easy Mode for trolling 05:32:12 Quadrescence: That wasn't trolling, it was overreacting. There's a difference. 05:32:19 *arcfide* ponders. 05:32:19 jcowan: What? 05:32:25 Did I overreact somewhere? :-) 05:32:32 Did he overreact somewhere? 05:32:59 Quadrescence: So you follow me on good ol' WG1, eh? I take it you're not a fan? :-) 05:33:14 On WG1. 05:33:16 arcfide: I have to follow you on wg1 05:33:54 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has joined #scheme 05:33:59 arcfide: hey, I happen to love #haskell 05:34:00 jcowan: You think so? 05:34:04 dmoerner [~dmr@90-84.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 05:34:13 arcfide: I was more making a sort of joke about how you are a very active participant. 05:34:40 arcfide: have you heard of HSXML? 05:34:43 arcfide: By very active, I mean you've essentially written a book to read on wg1 ;) 05:34:45 Quadrescence: I know, Hehe, I was just ribbing you. 05:34:47 arcfide: Granted that tl and bh created a flood of messages, there's no doubt that you and I added to it. 05:35:20 Quadrescence: An unfortunate side effect of fast typing speed and little restraint when it comes to technical and no so technical discussions. 05:35:38 I have managed to avoid the Unicode thread, mostly. 05:35:43 Though that won't last forever. 05:35:58 And I haven't gone crazy on the Wiki, yet. 05:36:13 arcfide: I am going to send you a $3 rubber-capacitor keyboard with no feedback 05:36:36 *arcfide* pets his little keyboards. 05:36:45 oo can I go crazy on the wiki? 05:36:53 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:56 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:22 Quadrescence: You have to understand though, that I'm used to having these discussions adamantly every Friday with the PL guys here. We regularly discuss things like ambiguous semantics in R6RS and issues of correct forms, interfaces, modules, and the like. 05:37:46 Quadrescence: Then suddenly I get on a mailing list and my fingers just started flying.... 05:37:46 arcfide: It's okay, there's no problem contributing. 05:38:09 Quadrescence: Well, there is something to be said for making your points concisely, lest people stop listening. 05:38:10 I just have to get up to pace with keeping up with what everyone wants/thinks/etc 05:38:30 I use auto filters on stuff to help with that. 05:41:01 Quadrescence: I want bijections 05:41:06 Quadrescence: and a pony 05:41:55 sorry, non-bijective surjections only 05:43:24 i was actually thinking it might work to represent bijections as (values f invf), then you could use them as normal functions, and yet (invert bijn) would still be possible 05:47:17 well, cl:values, not rnrs:values 05:48:44 I still think values is worthless 05:51:31 I guess that's a price (?) to pay when looking at things from a type-theoretic or mathematical perspective. 05:54:29 Worthless???? 05:54:32 :-) 05:54:38 yes worthless 05:54:38 *arcfide* restrains his fingers..... 05:54:42 *arcfide* twitches.... 05:54:52 No, feel free to argue. I don't mind arguing constructively 05:55:24 Maybe I can get it to you that I'm the right one. ;) ;) 05:55:26 Aha! There's my reading on abstract predicates and mutable ADTs in Hoare Type Theory! Must go, sorry, ta ta! 05:55:40 gross 05:58:04 Quadrescence: I'll say this. I find multiple return values to be an useful abstraction in that it allows me to avoid transient intermediate structures and removes that associated overhead. But then again, I've always wanted multiple values in any programming language I worked in, even before I knew I could get it in Scheme. 05:59:07 arcfide: I'll say this: we have lists. Optimize those, and don't clutter with multiple values 06:00:05 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:29 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:06:36 jamamooga [~quassel@99-196-112-105.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #scheme 06:06:55 -!- jamamooga [~quassel@99-196-112-105.cust.wildblue.net] has left #scheme 06:14:08 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:24 Multiple values are (almost) the dual of multiple arguments: the only difference is that the number of arguments may be known statically, whereas the number of values rarely is. 06:16:58 Multiple arguments shouldn't exist either 06:17:54 that would make trolling very boring 06:18:45 Just to clarify, I am certainly not trolling. 06:18:50 If you want mandatory currying, there are many places to find it, at least one of which you probably know about. 06:19:17 The usual way Scheme does "multiple arguments" is *not* what I consider multiple arguments (having the rest of the args in the CDR) 06:26:27 I don't mean variable numbers of arguments, I mean plain old multiple arguments, as in more than one argument. 06:27:06 Under CPS, the continuation of a multiply valued procedure is simply a procedure that accepts more than one argument. 06:27:39 Multiple returns are very old in programming; they already existed in the first Fortran systems. 06:28:15 xwl_` [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:29:49 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:36:44 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:42:20 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:42:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:49 rickmode 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[~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:06 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 11:09:42 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 11:09:48 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:12:40 I wonder is there "pure" scheme (i.e. rXrs) macro rewriter? 11:13:01 -!- xwl_` [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:13:11 which is not bound to any particular scheme implementation 11:14:40 Yes, there is 11:15:01 There's alexpander and... riaxpender or something? 11:15:04 *alaricsp* goes looking 11:15:33 http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/alexpander.html 11:15:35 this? 11:16:06 Yeah, that bad boy. That's the chicken port of it, at least. I found http://petrofsky.org/src/alexpander.scm 11:16:25 thank you! 11:17:50 http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/syntax-case too 11:18:44 Ah, this is the one I was thinking of, though, which is IIRC the best of them: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/riaxpander 11:19:11 would it be worth porting it to chicken 4? 11:19:32 Not AIUI, as chicken 4 has hygienic macros built in, and an external implementation of them would FIGHT. 11:19:46 Each implementation has its own notion of how to express hygiene information, AIUI 11:20:10 So native macros and external macros would not realise each other existed, and would therefore violate each other's hygienes or something like that 11:20:49 However, it should be relatively easy to implement other macro systems in terms of chicken 4's ER macros 11:21:44 I quite like rsc macros, myself 11:24:40 All you need is a macro or even a procedure that converts your macro system into an ER macro transformer. And call that macro or procedure "sc-macro-transformer" and you're away... 11:33:58 there is also psyntax... monster. 11:36:05 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:39:28 i need something reasonable. hope, ria will fits well 11:40:05 rmrfchik: perhaps steal from chibi... 11:42:15 incubot: small is always reasonable, abstraction reducing to a single semeion. 11:42:19 pasted "Hrm...reducing memory usage?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64424 11:42:47 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:08 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:43:24 incubot: your teh dump 11:43:27 Riastradh says: Could the compiler dump out debugging data for the debugger to read back in so that the debugger could operate on compiled code instead of only interpreted code? 11:44:42 *sladegen* goes to take a dump. 11:49:04 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #scheme 11:53:09 xwl [~user@123.115.109.149] has joined #scheme 11:55:39 rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has joined #scheme 11:58:55 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:42 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:07:39 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:22 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has joined #scheme 12:14:14 TR2N [email@89-180-145-189.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 12:21:16 luz [~davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:29:38 schmir [~schmir@p54A90F80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:46:52 -!- ribbs [~ribbs@p024062.doubleroute.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:50:03 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 12:54:53 samth [~samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:59:34 Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 13:04:55 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:05:43 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 13:07:03 foof: I just read a message jcowan sent to the WG1 mailing list. He writes "(From my comment to that ticket)". I wonder if it isn't the case to forward all trac comments to the mailing list. The chicken trac does that. I think it's a nice way to get a general idea about what's happening on trac. 13:07:51 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@37.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:43 alvatar [~alvatar@84.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:12:21 I suggested that somewhere, too; it might be a good idea. 13:26:42 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:28:05 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:29:12 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:30:59 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 13:33:56 -!- foof [~user@118-021-204-069.jp.fiberbit.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:13 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 13:48:21 haole [~ivan@187.23.80.198] has joined #scheme 13:48:50 hello there... i'm trying to capture the ouput of a shell script using scheme... how is it done? i can see the output being printed on my interpreter, but i can't store it in a list, for example 13:50:54 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:51:32 haole: what scheme implementation are you using? 13:51:46 mario-goulart, gambit 13:53:44 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@84.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:42 -!- samth [~samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:45 MononcQc [~ftrottier@207.253.180.96] has joined #scheme 14:00:05 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:34 haole: maybe http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit-c.html#Process-devices 14:01:10 mario-goulart, i was just reading that! thanks :D 14:01:27 You're welcome. :-) 14:03:44 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:50 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 14:05:44 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:07:18 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:12:06 haole: with with-output-to-{string,port} I think 14:12:43 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90F80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:16:52 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:19:21 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:24:12 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:27 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:08 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:13 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:01 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:39:17 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:40:47 -!- nullpo [~nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:44:25 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41-184-82-6.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:01 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:58:51 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:17 josephholsten [~josephhol@adsl-70-234-132-145.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:12 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.109.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:30 is there an easy way to know that i've read a newline using the (read ...) function? it jumps to the next line automatically 15:07:35 haole, `read' reads s-expressions - newlines are just like any other whitespace 15:22:29 reprore 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[~josephhol@wsip-70-184-255-213.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:13 schmir [~schmir@p54A93E7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:36:43 masm [~masm@bl10-6-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:39:46 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:41:21 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:41:50 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:42:49 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has joined #scheme 19:50:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:56 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:57:43 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:00:30 rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.234.45] has joined #scheme 20:00:51 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:01:25 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.219.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:01 alvatar [~alvatar@63.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:07:25 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 20:08:53 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 20:12:01 seangrov` [~user@adsl-76-254-31-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:15:16 -!- seangrove [~user@adsl-99-185-246-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:16 I'm selling my copy of SICP on Amazon...I currently have the lowest used price at $50 is anyone is interested :P 20:16:20 20:16:25 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:17:38 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:55 You're selling your wizard soul, mbishop. 20:18:00 Don't do it! 20:18:43 Well if it makes you feel any better, I held on to it longer than other books that I sold 20:19:09 Good grief! I'd throw a large, heavy book at you, but you'd probably sell that too. 20:19:15 heh 20:19:24 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:26 And I'd really rather not lose my copy of CLtL2! 20:19:39 (It's the ANSI standard throwing book.) 20:19:48 I did hesitate a little...but given the fact that I hardly crack it open anymore, and it is available online for reading...meh 20:20:09 Also, this large collection of used offby1 dentures isn't selling very well, so I gotta get some money! 20:24:31 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:25:54 -!- SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:29:19 SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 20:34:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:35:16 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A93E7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:41:32 phao [~phao@189.107.219.180] has joined #scheme 20:43:00 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:41 luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 20:55:10 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.234.45] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 20:59:12 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@63.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:59:40 marcob [~marco@host173-180-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:59:56 -!- marcob [~marco@host173-180-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #scheme 21:00:10 marcob [~marco@host173-180-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 21:00:35 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:16:53 -!- MononcQc [~ftrottier@207.253.180.96] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:52 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:08 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 21:29:56 can someone explain the concept of "push-button-combinator"? 21:30:14 HG` [~HG@xdslga011.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:30:17 using higher-order procedures.. 21:40:37 -!- etpace [~johndoe@etpace.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:18 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:43:30 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:26 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:30 I've never heard of such a thing, and apparently neither has google. Where are you getting this from? 21:52:39 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:20 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 21:57:51 arcfide [arcfide@99.50.227.202] has joined #scheme 21:57:51 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-226.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 21:58:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:59:51 etpace [~johndoe@etpace.eu] has joined #scheme 22:01:27 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 22:01:36 sva- [~sva@83.101.44.240] has joined #scheme 22:02:19 -!- sva- [~sva@83.101.44.240] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:21 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:02:23 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:13:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:25 copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-226.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 22:25:01 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:26:58 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 22:31:20 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:33:05 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:33:55 -!- arcfide [arcfide@99.50.227.202] has left #scheme 22:35:17 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:42 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-89.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:31 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has joined #scheme 22:40:19 -!- marcob [~marco@host173-180-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #scheme 22:48:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslga011.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:38 -!- mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:28 -!- davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:56:05 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:57:21 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:04:20 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:37 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:26 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:06:14 -!- seangrov` [~user@adsl-76-254-31-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:48 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:57 seangrov` [~user@adsl-99-185-247-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:25 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 23:11:53 rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.234.45] has joined #scheme 23:13:35 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-68-179.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:14:44 mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 23:20:44 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@wsip-70-184-255-213.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 23:25:11 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.239] has joined #scheme 23:28:49 -!- mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:35:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:37:07 -!- luz [~davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 23:46:50 mreggen [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 23:49:44 Well what do you know. -t sends in his proof! 23:51:09 i look forward to seeing it 23:51:53 samth: Don't hold your breath. 23:52:05 He's much more civil in private email. :-) 23:52:08 i'm breathing quite well, thanks 23:52:59 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]