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I've seen some but those made the connection look like "It's important because there are some software that designed for mathematicians", which is pretty much the same answer to the question "Why do some programmes need to know ?" 01:50:23 I don't know how to ask this better, but I think you guys understood the question. 01:52:12 "Introduction To Algorithms": Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest and Stein. 01:52:58 Well. I have this book in my "To do list" of things to read. However, it's too big. I cannot read it right now. Don't you know anything smaller? 01:53:03 *copumpkin* is writing an essay on it for a class by the first author there! 01:53:19 but it's in shit shape right now, so not public :P 01:53:40 phao: CS is included in Math, so the connection is the whole CS. 01:53:45 I'm not sure what you mean by "a document talking about the connection between CS and Math". 01:53:58 Computers execute binary operations on binary data. 01:54:08 mhohe: totally wrong. 01:54:09 They're all doing math. 01:54:19 mhoye: computers have nothing to do with binary. 01:54:25 computers can exist independently of their implementations 01:54:26 Binary transforms on binary data? 01:54:28 That's wrong? 01:54:32 binary is just a detail 01:54:38 There are analogical computers, there are ternary computers, there are decimal computers. 01:54:40 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:44 and quantum ones :) 01:54:51 also, lambda calculus 01:54:59 which doesn't have any underlying number base 01:55:00 and Turing Machines. 01:55:12 pjb, but 01:55:15 where is the connection 01:55:15 this is #scheme, we only care about LC 01:55:16 Yeah, they're all Turing Machines. 01:55:20 what makes CS part of math? 01:55:34 Turing and Gödel. 01:55:39 s/what/who/ 01:55:43 And since one of the Turing Machines is doing binary transforms on binary data, all turing machines can be equivalently described as such. 01:55:46 phao: what defines math to you? until we have that we can't really answer 01:56:05 I've been defining math as a language to define things. 01:56:05 that's synecdoche 01:56:13 phao: like english? 01:56:19 mhoye: and one of the Turing Machine is doing transformations of bananas into pineaples. 01:56:25 But I don't think phao is looking for an existential treaties on the fundamental philosophies of the ages. 01:56:31 I don't think math is like english, but, yes, you can define things using english 01:56:37 I think that phao is wondering about the intersection of computing and pure math. 01:56:38 math seems more precise, though 01:56:46 mhoye, that's right. 01:56:48 The hardware has limits. 01:56:59 CS is closer to pure maths than physics. 01:57:07 pjb, why? 01:57:10 map/reduce is (partially) about monoids, if that counts 01:57:10 Math _is_ more precise, because it doesn't have to run up against the physical limitations of the hardware. 01:57:28 phao: because you need less baggage to define CS than physics. 01:57:36 mhoye, I was comparing math to english there. 01:57:48 I still don't get the connection. 01:57:58 phao: People might disagree with me here, but the old line that "computer science has as much to do with computers as astronomy has to do with telescopes" applies. 01:58:00 phao: how much CS do you know? 01:58:20 copumpkin, not much. 01:58:21 Which is to say: the "computer" part of it is a means to an end. 01:58:46 mhoye, applies to what? 01:58:50 phao: how much Math do you know? 01:58:50 phao: algorithmic analysis is all about discrete math, you can define data (and codata :O) 01:58:54 in terms of category theory 01:59:02 pjb, not much... 01:59:09 That's the problem. 01:59:12 phao: there's a lot of ways to look at this. A _lot_. 01:59:25 But what you might want to do is consider this in historical terms. 01:59:47 phao: do you know Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory? 01:59:55 God, pjb, don't. 02:00:02 pjb, no 02:00:06 phao: consider that many notions of CS existed before computers did 02:00:08 That's the basis. 02:00:17 phao: go read it on wikipedia. 02:00:20 I'm not confusing CS with Computers, btw. 02:00:26 phao: Back in the old days, a "computer" and a "calculator" were the same thing. 02:00:45 That is to say, they were a person employed to do math and write down the answers they got in big books. 02:00:46 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:00:52 phao: what I'm saying is that the only language they had to describe their ideas on computation was math, and it's still studied in those terms today 02:01:19 If you've got an old enough library, you can go and look up books of log tables - just tables full, over and over again, of "this is the logarithm, base this, of that". 02:01:23 type theory was "invented" because of russell's paradox, for example 02:01:42 phao: then read the wikipedia articles about Turing Machine and Lambda Calculus. (keep in mind that they're equivalent) 02:01:44 (I do consider logic to be part of math) 02:02:33 Later, when machining got precise enough (and later, _really_ precise) it became possible to do sophisticated calculations mechanically. 02:03:07 Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has joined #scheme 02:03:24 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-24-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:03:49 That is, you could build a machine that, if you phrased your question a certain way (gear settings, and later punch cards) it became possible to "say" to that machine, I would like the answer to a question of type X, where this is the parameters. 02:04:26 That machine was effectively doing math for you. You've probably heard of Babbage's "Difference Engine". 02:05:18 The funny thing is that there was a way to "ask" something that amounted to "what?" and would freeze the machine. And people were happy that a machine couldn't answer such a question :-) 02:05:56 pjb: Is that true of actual mechanical engines? 02:06:39 I know that you require a certain degree of complexity before the Incompleteness Theorem applies, but I didn't think that had actually been demonstrated on a real device. 02:06:42 Well, it's true of any system without enough input validation, if you feed it an invalid input. Presumably, "what?" wasn't an expected/valid question. 02:07:09 Ah, so the hardware implicitly constrains the inputs then? 02:07:11 That would make sense. 02:07:23 phao: still with us? 02:07:38 (was chatting with a friend) 02:07:48 It's not a question of hardware either. It's a question of "system". It doesn't matter what parts are implemented in hardware and what parts are implemented in software. 02:07:49 I read your "later, when ..." 02:08:14 pjb: I know, I just wanted to know if somebody had actually shown this on real hardware. 02:09:12 phao: so, later still, somebody invented the transistor and then the microchip, and then four things happened. 02:09:30 (1) The hardware started getting progressively cheaper and progressively faster 02:10:02 (2) The types of questions you could ask computers grew hugely. 02:10:23 but more importantly 02:10:41 Well, the problem could be that the algorithm goes into an infinite loop. In the case of an analogical computer, that could translate in some oscillation between two states. Which if it is not dampeded correctly, could lead to a broken machine. 02:10:46 (3) The _way you asked_ a question could produce wildly different results over different time scales, and 02:10:58 (4) the way the computer was taught to solve the problem could vary enormously. 02:12:14 Some of that's about traditional math, but not all of it. It's hard to argue that bubblesort versus quicksort, for example, is strictly the purvue of the pure mathematician. 02:12:32 algorithms are purely mathematics. 02:12:36 It has its roots in mathematics, and mathematics is how we describe a lot of it (big O notation, for example) 02:13:11 But it certainly feels different when you're doing it. 02:13:19 The guys who create and prove algorithms are more mathematicians than anything else. Proportionnaly, very few programmers are even able to do that. 02:13:50 Virtually every programmer can do it. 02:14:05 _proving_ it, sure. That's math. 02:14:14 proving is also programming 02:14:15 Well, it's CS. 02:14:16 for some kinds of proof. 02:14:34 I'd expect all programmers to be able to do that. But obviously, it's expecting too much. 02:14:36 Showing that, for N inputs, this algorithm produces Y slope on log paper? 02:14:38 That's science. 02:14:57 you can prove its slope too 02:15:31 Well 02:15:37 I surely cannot see 02:15:43 how math is related to quicksort 02:15:52 If I have a function that is meant to return some struct and set-struct-param!, if I put the set-struct-param! statement after the actual value being returned, will this have any bearing on the return value? Like will it return a # or something? 02:16:04 phao: Dividing sets, choosing a random number, it's all in there. 02:16:16 oh.. c'mon.. 02:16:21 phao: maybe your definition of math is too restricted. If all you've been exposed to is HS math, I'm not terribly surprisd 02:16:23 there must be something more complicated. 02:16:24 Seriously. 02:16:37 Comparing two values to see which one's larger? 02:16:40 That's math. 02:16:43 you need a total order 02:16:53 and you don't have to be sorting numbers 02:17:05 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:17:43 And when I tell you that quicksort takes O(n(log(n)) time? 02:17:48 copumpkin, and yes, I have only HS 02:17:52 Damn right it's math! 02:18:03 It's just not math you've seen yet. 02:18:17 or n^2 :( 02:18:25 well 02:18:29 no offense 02:18:32 but I hope you're wrong. 02:18:36 lol 02:18:39 It cannot be that.. 02:18:45 there must be something else 02:18:50 people spend months to years 02:18:57 studying math for CS 02:19:04 not really 02:19:07 and they'd do that if it were just for basic stuff like this. 02:19:11 Not that I don't know those things 02:19:12 depends on what branch of CS you're in 02:19:18 but it doesn't look 02:19:21 quicksort is an endorphism in a vectorial space, that maps a vector u onto a vector v such as vi<=vj when i phao: you've read shakespeare, right? 02:19:24 like one would need all that time to learn it. 02:19:25 phao: I gave examples earlier 02:19:28 mhoye, no. 02:19:28 phao: type theory 02:19:31 Do they still make you do that in high school? 02:19:39 phao: there's nothing more mathematical than quicksort. 02:19:47 copumpkin, sorry, I don't know what type theory is. I surely need to study more so I can understant the relation better 02:20:07 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:20:09 askhader: the value of any sequence, either via `begin' or implicitly in the body of a lambda, is the value of the last expression in the sequence. 02:20:15 pjb, you could talk that and you made it look hard to me 02:20:18 phao: types? c has them, c++, java? the basic idea is pretty simple, but it's a remarkably rich topic 02:20:25 but I'd like to see that using words I could actually understand 02:20:30 to see if it's really hard. 02:20:30 phao: it really sounds like you're trying to figure out why this is an intimidating topic, and we're saying it's not, and you don't believe us so you're going to be intimidated by it anyway. 02:20:56 mhoye, I'm not intimidating 02:21:01 but I really expected more. 02:21:06 he's saying you want to be intimidated :) 02:21:14 most math isn't terribly scary 02:21:15 not because it's hard, but because I like it 02:21:16 phao: There's a _lot_ here to understand. 02:21:17 it's abstract, yep 02:21:19 And it's subtle. 02:21:25 But it's also understandable. 02:21:25 I'll take a course on math in the uni., not CS. 02:21:32 I like math. 02:21:39 math is awesome 02:21:41 Daemmerung: Thank you. 02:22:04 phao: just take your time. Learn some fundamentals of mathematics, axiomatics, logic, algorithmic, lambda calculus. This is really all basic, and old. It was all developed before 1939. 02:22:29 why 1939 specifically? 02:22:59 Daemmerung: Does set! have /any/ connection to the value <#void> 02:22:59 *copumpkin* awaits godwin 02:23:20 Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:24:48 phao: after that, they were busy with applications, such as decoding Enigma, or computing balistic tables, or building the atomic bomb. 02:25:46 real math is nothing like high school math 02:25:49 it bothers me 02:26:02 so many people get the wrong idea early on 02:26:02 why real math bothers you? 02:26:09 ah ok. 02:26:13 no, it bothers me that high school misrepresents math :) 02:26:15 real math is much funnier than high school math. 02:26:16 Real everything is not like high school anything 02:26:32 nothing is fun in HS 02:26:35 so it's quite easier 02:26:38 to make something funnier 02:27:25 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:31 that is why I stopped studing for HS topics 02:27:32 when i was 15 02:27:40 got too interested in reading K&R 02:27:46 phao: You could read "Gödel, Escher and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braind" by Douglas Hofstadter. 02:27:47 then writing small useless programs in C 02:28:14 (I think it's the most important book of the 20th century, it will probably be worth reading in a century or two. 02:30:08 phao: if you read French, the French translation is very good too. 02:32:28 Hmm. I don't read french. Only pt-br and en 02:33:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:42 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 02:36:37 askhader: the value returned by a `set!' expression is undefined. Frequently it will return # or # or some other non-valuable value. 02:37:11 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:38:26 If you have a set! form as the last expression in a sequence, then the value of the entire sequence is that non-valuable value. 02:43:29 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2)) 02:43:33 chandler: error: with-limit: out of time 02:43:37 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2)) 02:43:50 *chandler* slaps rudybot 02:44:01 *Daemmerung* puts on soft music 02:44:08 rudybot: init r5rs 02:44:11 I think that means that it's returning # or somesuch. 02:44:23 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (display (set! x 2))) 02:44:28 *Daemmerung* turns the lights down low 02:44:32 ... Or, it's just ignoring me. 02:44:33 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 02:44:47 I thought maybe I could get it in the mood. Guess not. 02:46:32 chandler: error: with-limit: out of time 02:46:45 Daemmerung: error: with-limit: out of time 02:46:53 chandler: error: with-limit: out of time 02:46:58 We're all out of time, in the end. 02:46:59 Damn, baby, that's just cold. 02:47:11 *Daemmerung* has got to work on his game 02:49:33 -!- foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-13-211.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:54:40 naw, "out of time" means there's some weird problem with mzscheme that I don't understand 02:59:12 rudybot: eval 'hello 02:59:18 chandler: error: with-limit: out of time 02:59:21 rudybot: t8 la en De mortuis nil nisi bonum 02:59:23 *offby1: invalid translation language pair 02:59:32 funny how all the other commands work OK 03:00:33 offby1: I think the "some weird problem" is colloquially known as "totally kaput" 03:00:40 but not totally. 03:00:57 all I can say is: compiling seems bizarrely slow, and it's possible that it needs to compile in order to eval 03:01:01 rudybot: t8 en sp There will also be corn served. 03:01:02 Daemmerung: invalid translation language pair 03:01:14 ... and this only is a problem on the particular box it's running on; it's fine on my home machine :-| 03:01:25 03:01:26 "Works on my machine" 03:01:27 rudybot: t8 en es There will also be corn served. 03:01:29 *offby1: También habrá servido de maíz. 03:01:30 Daemmerung: ayup 03:02:01 rudybot: t8 it en mi cadea fra le braccia 03:02:02 copumpkin: falls into my arms 03:04:15 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:32 incubot: (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2)) 03:11:33 # 03:11:44 We have a backup bot. 03:12:56 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:13:11 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 03:16:55 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:22:34 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:25:28 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:23 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:28:37 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:37:42 you're gonna need a bigger bot 03:41:51 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:55 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:44:48 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:30 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:47:59 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.11.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:42 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #scheme 03:49:16 pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:54 elly, M-( will do what you want, and maybe . (The LaTeX source is in paredit-cheatsheet.tex in the same directory.) 03:53:07 Riastradh: <3 for paredit-mode 03:53:20 Fewer than three whats for paredit-mode? 03:53:42 heh :P 03:55:23 do any of you guys use scheme (or other dialect of lisp) in a web stack? I have of course looked at PLT Scheme.. I'd like to hear about anyones experiences building a non-trivial web app with it. 03:55:42 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 03:56:01 No, I tend to avoid web applications, myself. 03:56:18 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 04:00:11 omg it's Riastradh 04:00:11 *offby1* refuses to answer out of fear of being rickrolled 04:00:37 Hi. 04:00:48 zomg 04:00:51 please resume your deep intellectual conversation now that I'm done with my interjection 04:00:59 lol... that's another rick (but I did have that 12" single back in college - i'll let you guess what that means about my age) 04:01:31 offby1: 04:01:46 (See how cleverly that URI is disguised!) 04:02:37 i'm just curious... I've given up on CL and am resigning myself to a weak-sauce (but at least dynamic) language and framework 04:02:51 :( 04:03:00 rickmode: perl? 04:03:26 I hear that Ruby is popular for the purposes of hype, popularity, and webbiness. 04:03:36 don't forget sexism 04:03:50 Sexism? I hadn't heard that one, so it would be hard for me to have forgotten it until you 04:03:54 ...mentioned it. 04:03:58 Stupid ^M. 04:04:05 didn't you see the 'perform like a pr0n star with couchdb' talk? 04:04:27 copumpkin: I'm leaning toward pythong with django actually. Ruby and Rails looks damn messy. I'm not up for Clojure as I did the Java and JVM langauge thing already and I want to stay away from it. 04:04:33 pythong, eh! 04:04:35 No...is `couchdb' some sort of euphemism here with which I am unfamiliar? 04:04:47 no 04:04:52 mongodb sounds like a euphemism though 04:04:58 but the sexism was the talk itself 04:05:03 My dictionary doesn't have `couchdb' in it. 04:05:03 couchdb is a real product 04:05:12 I'm all for nosql - most apps don't need that level of durabliilty 04:05:13 Not to start a programming language wars here, but haskell and lisp can solve the same kind of problems by attacking them in the same angle from a functional programming view point. Sure? 04:05:22 we try to couch it in gentle terms 04:05:24 (Sorry if this is off topic for this group, btw) 04:05:26 rickmode: sql isn't about durability or even any of the other ACID properties 04:05:42 rickmode, I think you mean `complexity', not `durability'. 04:05:57 My "web app" experience could safely be described as trivial. I used scsh, which tells you how long ago it was. 04:05:59 phao: haskell sucks! use java 04:06:18 ! 04:06:21 I might have to revoke some sort of licence from you, copumpkin. 04:06:28 damn :( 04:06:29 Damn. I knew I'd get something like that. :-) haha 04:06:32 I've given away my true nature 04:06:36 copumkin: true true... but most java-wonks will point to acid transaction as the most important thing. It's the other corporate wonks that want the reporting stuff 04:06:37 But, no thanks, I'll pass java. 04:07:22 rickmode: I like relational databases because they have a fairly simple model behind them. nosql feels very ad-hoc (for now, at least) and mostly uninformed 04:07:35 phao, any Turing-equivalent machine can approach the same class of computational problems as any other Turing-equivalent machine. But perhaps you had a more specific question in mind. 04:07:38 but maybe I myself am uninformed about their informedness 04:07:53 Daemmerung: scsh? not sure what that is... however I did poke a friend of mine into building "bash server pages" build entirely from bash and the networking on available from linux shell scripts. 04:08:10 Riastradh, I had. 04:08:35 rickmode: There are several examples of "non-trivial web apps" done with the plt web server -- it's probably best to ask on the list. (You can also go through the tutorial at http://docs.plt-scheme.org/continue/) 04:08:44 I was wondering if the types of techniques to solve a problem in a "funcional programming way" were available in both haskell and lisp. 04:08:54 phao, yep. 04:08:55 Next question? 04:08:57 phao: haskell uses the Power of Types to make you slit your wrists after reading one of Harrop's comp.lang.functional posts 04:09:10 Thanks. 04:09:14 it's quite an advantage 04:09:42 sorry 04:09:51 what did you mean by "power of types" 04:09:52 rickmode: scsh is/was a pretty piece of abandonware. An early attempt to embed a Unix scripting environment in a Scheme. 04:09:54 copumpkin: the whole nosql thing is a backlassh against the impedance mismatch of object-relational mapping, and also from the speed penalty of using a relational DB 04:09:58 and I have to look up "slit" 04:10:16 rickmode: I buy the ORM bit, but speed penalty? 04:11:33 phao, I was thinking of explaining what copumpkin said, but I think I'll defer that to copumpkin. 04:11:33 Daemmerung: scsh was the most beautiful software I've ever seen. 04:12:45 What is special about those posts. Harrop's comp.lang.functional posts. 04:12:59 offby1: it will live forever in our hearts. Also by virtue of Olin's classic manual dedication 04:13:05 phao: haskell is known, among other things, for its strong type system (compared to many other languages). You sort of get two languages in one: a purely functional value-level language and a logical (à la prolog) language for types 04:13:11 copumpkin, I like, or rather am terrified by, the this excerpt from the Wikipedia page on NoSQL, and in particular the second sentence: `Some NoSQL advocates promote very simple interfaces such as associative arrays or key-value pairs. Other system such as Native XML databases promote support of the XQuery standard.' 04:13:29 copumpkin: ya - if you hammer a DB... even the most expensive, with something more than 1000 to 5000 inserts per second, you begin to hit a limit. The NoSQL solutions can exceed this. Basically you strip off referential integrity for write-speed. 04:13:44 phao: Harrop is an over-educated troll who enjoys pissing Haskellers off with patently incorrect or outdated statements about their language, with the goal of promoting his books on F# or OCaml 04:14:27 rickmode, hmmm...did I just hear you right that you're talking about storing data, and preferring the speed of writes over the integrity of the data? You might want to try to put a slightly different spin on that... 04:14:32 rickmode: oh, sure, but that isn't a property of relational or non-relational. It's a property of your RDBMS letting you break ACID properties. Just use MyISAM on MySQL and you get that 04:16:01 Riastradh: yeah, many of these NoSQL databases seem to be reinventing what Berkeley DB has been doing for over a decade (or Dbm for a lot longer) 04:16:17 and no comment on XML :P 04:16:26 Riastradh: I'm not advocated NoSQL versus a relational DB. I'm just saying there are uses for each. And heck, Berkeley DB has done this for quite a while. 04:16:40 (for what it's worth BDB has an XML layer on top of it if you really want to be enterprise buzzword-compliant) 04:17:03 (Probably you had in mind applications that are tolerant of inconsistent updates to distributed databases, but I get twitchy whenever people talk about preferring performance over correctness when storing users' data. See, for example, the entry about file systems and brain damage in .) 04:17:09 but hey, mongodb is more 2.0ish 04:19:12 I still can't believe they thought that was a good name 04:19:20 it's on the same level as iPad, for me 04:19:59 You should write a competing system called mongoloidb. 04:20:04 Riastradh: exactly. The "Eventually Consistent" essay sums it up: http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/2008/12/eventually_consistent.html 04:20:06 :) 04:22:11 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:55 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:25:33 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:27:41 So, what's new and exciting in the Scheme standardization mayhem? 04:29:40 foof blew a gasket, resigned, and apparently is now recuperating in a zendo. Fortunately the author of SRFI 86 was available, and has taken over as committee chaircritter 04:30:09 Zendo -- that's a nifty icehouse game. I haven't played it in a while, though. Where can I join foof at it? 04:30:42 There should be an opening in five weeks or so. 04:31:27 And what in the name of Azathoth is wrong with Google's group archive viewer? How do I see any sensible display of the messages organized chronologically or by thread? 04:32:22 From the same literati who have brought us the broken Usenet archives. 04:33:15 can you be a member of the illiterati? because I would like to join 04:33:31 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:00 I think I am a member of the illiterati, because I just want to use a vanilla ordinary old NNTP client rather than any of this newfangled web crap that imposes a model rather than simply giving me the useful data by a standard protocol. 04:34:03 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:34:29 pff, you need an RSS reader and a twitter account 04:34:55 *Daemmerung* flinches 04:35:07 I realize in retrospect that the first part of my sentence had at best a tenuous connection to the rest of it, which I justify by explaining that the rest of it turned into a miniature rant during whose writing I forgot how the message began. What was I talking about again? 04:35:36 Something about bringing the Dodgers back to Brooklyn, I think 04:36:16 amca [~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:36:20 I thought we didn't have a draft; are there dodgers of it still in Brooklyn? 04:36:29 ...no, I guess, they must be somewhere other than Brooklyn. 04:36:42 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.201.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:35 roger dodger 04:37:52 I remember now. I was trying to look among the scheme-reports-wgN archives for the gasket that foof purportedly blew, but the interface to Google Groups is so baroque that I can't figure out whether Daemmerung was putting me on or not. 04:39:33 foof, do you have all your gaskets? Was Daemmerung spreading FUD to poor innocent souls such as me? 04:39:41 foof has been the very model of calm and equipoise. I think. (I find the interface just as frustrating as you do.) I am postponing doing something annoying, and so am lying on IRC to buy time. 04:43:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:02 FWIW, starting from links in the atom feed it is easy to get to a link to the raw text of each message, and the road from there to an inbox file is short. 04:48:33 Whether the content is worth the effort is highly questionable. 04:48:48 I was just about to ask whether there has been anything worth reading on those mailing lists. 04:49:26 Riastradh: Fexprs are apparently back in fashion. 04:49:45 Face, meet palm. Palm, face. 04:49:52 *kersplat* 04:50:39 Either a very sweaty palm, or else somebody's drooling 04:50:46 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:41 I forgot to remove the ice cream cone from my hand before I introduced the aforementioned two parties. 04:53:10 I was actually expecting the fexpr show as soon as Matthew's "the repl is hopeless" saying was mentioned. 04:53:53 Some people would take that as a hint that it's broken, some would take it as a sign that they should learn why it's broken. 04:54:57 And yet there are a few who would pull out an einstein and say: assuming that the REPL is a holy part of nature that can in no way be moved, how can we change the rest of the world to make it fixed. 04:55:26 Fexprs are therefore pretty much inevitable. 04:56:29 Maybe its proponents can be persuaded to start working on the revised^{-2} report on Kernel. 04:56:58 Obviously, it doesn't help much that some of these people take the repl as a fixed straight-from-god's-mouth fact of nature just by blind belief; as they also admit to not get any kind of macrology beyond `defmacro'. 04:57:19 Yeah, a revised^-2 report does seem likely... 04:57:42 An implementation would be even more amusing. 04:58:27 As in "why should intercal get all the fun?". 05:02:11 Which lang are we talking about here? 05:06:36 "TBD". 05:07:47 Does TDB stand for anything? 05:08:05 `To Be Defenestrated' 05:08:21 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:08:25 TBD's meaning is TBD. 05:09:33 :) Can you point me to a website? 05:10:53 http://scheme-reports.org 05:11:09 *eli* finds it pleasantly amusing that tbd.{com,org} are hosted by squatters, which means that their contents is TBD. 05:13:14 Does TBD mean "To Be Determined"? 05:14:16 yes 05:14:48 Is TBD to be the future R7RS? 05:15:33 Doubtful. 05:16:16 Wishfully thinking about how you would like it to be? 05:16:50 Skeptical in the face of group dynamics and the disappointment that was R6RS. 05:17:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:19:08 Am I being annoying with my Qs? 05:19:16 I think you mean `group chaotics', Daemmerung. 05:19:34 R5RS was the last standard with the signature of the *founding fathers*. R6RS, like C99, is just yet another exercise of we-have-to-put-a-new-standard-out-no-matter-what-just-because. 05:19:42 amca: you're kind of picking at a scab. Nothing personal, man. 05:19:52 Sorry bout that 05:19:57 np 05:20:36 No, you're not being annoying. They're perfectly reasonable questions, and I'm not involved in the kerfuffle; I am strictly an upstanding and dues-paying member of the peanut gallery. 05:21:41 The word "intercal" appears and my ears pricked up 05:22:04 #scheme being the gallery, where the peanuts may be found 05:22:05 eli, too, is a member of this peanut gallery. 05:22:35 *amca* picks up a peanut and eats it 05:22:49 fexpr 05:23:04 Ingredients: salt; artificial honey-roasting agents; pressed peanut sweepings 05:23:09 fexpr's are like macros, except the resulting list is not evealuated - do I have that right? 05:23:14 lo 05:24:27 Fexprs are macros that expand at run-time. Consequently, adding them to the language fundamentally changes its evaluation rules. For example, it is no longer the case that applying the procedure yielded by (lambda (f) (f 1 2 (begin (display "Foo!") 3))) always has the effect of displaying "Foo!". 05:26:08 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:26:39 Macros are only ever eval'd at reead/compile time? 05:27:53 *amca* thinks maybe he is in close to his head 05:28:04 Expanded, not evaluated. But yes, only at compile time. 05:30:50 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:56 Boink. 05:30:57 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:31:14 I'm using PLT Scheme and trying to write a "DrScheme Tool" or plugin. How can I (is it possible to?) specify a path that is relative to the file's location at runtime rather than the working directory of the drscheme process? 05:31:23 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 05:32:25 By specify a path I mean in my source file, I want to read some data from a file in the same directory so I want (my-read-file "foo") to be foo in the same directory as the source.ss file. 05:36:12 No idea. jonrafkind or eli might know. 05:36:31 mrh. 05:36:59 rudybot: doc this-expression-source-directory 05:37:14 offby1: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: mzlib/etc 05:37:26 rudybot: eval (require mzlib/etc) 05:37:45 *offby1* drums fingers 05:37:57 I bumped the timeout up to 10 seconds ... not enough, apparently 05:38:15 It's just a require 05:38:22 rudybot: init scheme 05:38:26 *shrug* 05:38:33 Daemmerung: your scheme sandbox is ready 05:38:46 Let's rock, baby. 05:38:51 rudybot: doc this-expression-source-directory 05:38:58 rudybot: eval (+ 3 4) 05:39:04 *sigh* 05:39:16 rudybot: init scheme 05:39:25 it's doing a LOT of disk I/O -- 4 MB/sec 05:39:30 I think you killed it. 05:39:35 compiling stuff, I guess 05:39:35 Holy howling tarantulas 05:39:44 offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/mzlib/mzlib_etc.html#(form._((lib._mzlib%2Fetc..ss)._this-expression-source-directory)) 05:39:44 Daemmerung: ; Value: 7 05:39:51 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 05:39:55 heh 05:39:58 Armageddon00: error: with-limit: out of time 05:40:05 Too many cooks 05:40:09 Armageddon00: anyway, that long link should help 05:40:20 offby1: thank you 05:40:59 what's it doing? re-compiling endless scrbl documentation with every GC? 05:41:21 probably :-| 05:41:47 rudybot: eval (banner) 05:41:47 Daemmerung: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.5 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 05:41:53 not THAT old 05:42:03 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:04 but sooooo last year 05:42:14 whereas I am a hep cat. 05:43:33 It's running on a virtual slice in some schoolboy's basement, right? 05:44:10 *Daemmerung* wonders if the host is too crowded 05:44:25 everything getting all swapped out and all 05:44:37 prolly 05:44:53 but hey, it's only $6/month, and my circuit breaker at home trips every time we run the vacuum 05:45:16 shedding season having started a little early this year 05:45:23 and no, EC2 is way too expensive; I checked 05:45:41 *offby1* 's cat objects that he is very tidy with his fur 05:45:45 but it's for such an important cause! Think of the children 05:46:42 used to have a linode, which was fine; that was $20/month 05:47:42 that's a bottle and a half of Chimay blonde you can buy with your savings. Unfortunately, Rudy is now temperamental. I worry that he won't get into the right schools if this continues. 05:48:49 Daemmerung: two bottles. Where you shopping? 05:48:56 heh 05:48:59 Mazama, WA 05:49:00 'nuff said 05:49:12 Don't I fucking wish we had Chimay here. 05:49:23 you need a monthly trip into civiliation 05:49:25 civilization 05:49:27 You get it for $7 a pop? 05:49:31 naw, $9 05:49:55 That's what I pay at We-Rape-Paycheck-4-U on Roosevelt & 64th 05:50:07 aka Whole Foods 05:50:11 righto 05:50:21 odd, $9 is the best price I know of. Surprising that WF is that cheap 05:50:27 Loss leader? 05:50:31 *shrug* 05:50:39 No cheaper at Bottleworks? 05:50:53 *offby1* imagines a Chimay bottle escaping Whole Foods, with an eager pack of other groceries following closely behind 05:51:01 Bottleworks is a tad more expensive 05:51:07 but oh so convenient 05:51:27 *offby1* normally would feel guilty about clogging the channel with such off-topic talk, but ... 05:51:27 I should have such convenience. Oh, well, next week. 05:51:39 Right. And I should get back to, ugh, work. 05:59:49 Armageddon00: (define-runtime-path my-file "my-file.txt") 05:59:55 That's the preferred way. 06:02:37 eli: Is there any way to define a list of paths in that manner? 06:03:21 I have a few different paths that I want to be defined relative to the source file, and it's kind of awkard to write define-runtime-path like 10 times 06:04:33 Armageddon00: I don't remember if there's any way, but you could probably abstract over that with a macro. 06:04:56 And so I find myself confronted with these magical devices again... 06:05:01 At that level the mailing list would be better. 06:05:24 (I have a midterm to prepare for, so limited time to look further...) 06:05:33 s/prepare for/write/ 06:05:44 Armageddon00: have you tried checking the manual? It is excellent. Hint, hint. 06:07:03 eli: I really wouldn't object to delaying the midterm by two weeks :P 06:07:03 See, right after the entry for define-runtime-path, there's one for define-runtime-paths, and another for define-runtime-path-list. One of those might be what you want. 06:07:28 Daemmerung: heh. Now I feel like an idiot. 06:08:13 Well, not unreasonable of you to ask while you had him on the line. 06:08:36 I suppose so. thanks though, this helps a lot. 06:13:17 Why would anyone want to reintroduce fexpr's? What would be the advantage? 06:13:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:14:08 amca: http://calculist.blogspot.com/2009/01/fexprs-in-scheme.html 06:14:20 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-13-211.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 06:14:25 Daemmerung: tnx for that 06:22:46 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-179.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 06:29:38 Armageddon00: Well, JFYI, I had a very productive shower. About 2.5 questions popped up. 06:30:57 Armageddon00: In any case, I don't remember what it was, but I'll be in WVH in about 20m. 06:33:18 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:33:53 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: powering down] 06:36:23 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:59 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 06:40:57 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-13-211.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:02 foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-13-211.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 06:43:07 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:46:49 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:47:45 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:51:10 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:44 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:14 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:06:46 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:26:40 -!- nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:30:09 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:44 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 07:52:44 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:03 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 08:21:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:13 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 08:26:13 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:34 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:38:50 -!- pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:59 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:16 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:42:49 wingo [~wingo@83.44.191.228] has joined #scheme 08:43:07 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 08:48:24 -!- foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-13-211.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:50:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 08:52:57 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.44.191.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:10:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:14:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has joined #scheme 09:18:49 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:25:29 a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has joined #scheme 09:26:07 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:26:12 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:28:58 I have difficulties running the code of SICP. 09:28:58 (define (install-complex-package) 09:28:58 (define (add-complex z1 z2) 09:28:58 (make-from-real-imag (+ (real-part z1) (real-part z2)) 09:29:01 (+ (imag-part z1) (imag-part z2)))) 09:29:04 (define (tag z) (attach-tag 'complex z)) 09:29:08 (put 'add '(complex complex) 09:29:12 (lambda (z1 z2) (tag (add-complex z1 z2)))) 09:29:14 'done) 09:29:17 this code has no effect to me 09:29:24 (put is not called 09:29:25 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-186-158.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 09:30:07 what version of scheme should I run for SICP? 09:31:30 None of the standard scheme revisions supports all the constructs used in some parts of SICP. 09:32:20 Perhaps there is a SICP-mode for drscheme, but given the motivations behind its existence I would doubt it 09:33:11 Jafet: What are the motivations behind its existance? 09:33:32 HTDP, I assume. 09:35:16 You assume incorrectly 09:35:46 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 09:36:01 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:37:15 *eli* +1s Daemmerung 09:37:34 IIRC, the `put' function is something that you define in SICP. 09:37:39 Daemmerung: What's the correct assumption? 09:37:50 So you (a-s) are probably missing its definition. 09:38:01 Type sicp and drscheme into a search engine and see for yourself 09:38:23 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:43 I suspect a typo in the a-s code. Can't tell from the flood above. 09:38:48 amca: The motivation for PLT is not any particular textbook. The question itself is pretty ambiguous. 09:38:56 What's the motivation for python? 09:39:33 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:39:40 World domination by a benevolent dictator for life? 09:40:07 mit-scheme is the other natural choice for sicp 09:40:53 amca: "World domination" can be taken as the motivation for any programming language. 09:41:07 (For some extremely geeky definition of "domination".) 09:41:11 So Im right :) 09:41:18 yay! 09:41:37 *amca* pats himself condescendingly on the head 09:41:52 *eli* gives amca two bonus points 09:42:12 no tail-calls for you! (unless you bow) 09:42:12 *amca* services eli in thanks 09:42:56 *eli* notices an uprising trend of nicks that start with "a" 09:43:12 you can have hygienic macros if you given be Australia 09:43:13 ? 09:43:26 Are some of the exercises and sections in SICP intended to be taken without program testing? 09:43:28 s/given be/give me/ 09:43:49 I defined myself the put 09:43:52 and get 09:43:54 The package system is given in the book, but there is also the picture drawing bit 09:43:57 Jafet: Testing? SICP precedes the invention of testing. 09:44:25 how can I debug scheme? 09:44:26 a-s: So you'll need to be more precise than "put is not called". 09:44:26 I'll remember that 09:44:33 "Scheme: older than testing" 09:45:06 eli: I would like too to be able to be more precise... I do not know where to start from 09:45:13 how can I debug scheme code/ 09:45:14 ? 09:46:11 a-s: (1) with gdb if its compiled, or (2) with your interpreter 09:46:11 I evalueated it into an inferior scheme buffer in emacs, running mit-scheme 09:46:21 a-s: Do you see an error message? If so, what does it say? Which implementation of Scheme are you using? What is the meaning of life? How long before we have world peace? 09:46:32 Did you see an error message? 09:46:48 eli: I know the answer to the last question 09:46:59 ;Unbound variable: add-complex 09:46:59 ;To continue, call RESTART with an option number: 09:47:00 ... 09:47:10 eli: The meaning of life is to worship me as your lord and master 09:47:15 *eli* envies adu 09:47:30 it's difficult to paste here the exact code and errors 09:47:38 2012, when the flying saucers return 09:47:40 just generic discussion it's possible 09:47:56 Daemmerung: nope, 2038 09:47:57 a-s: So, isn't that error message clear? 09:48:02 a-s: if you don't do that then there is no way for anybody here to know what's happening 09:48:18 also, please don't spew code into the channel 09:48:19 amca: That would be correct for some specific value of "life". 09:48:23 lisppaste: url 09:48:23 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 09:48:41 eli: That value would be "all" :) 09:49:01 well, after the "2nd Y2K" there should be lots of chaos and crapiness, but out of the ashes will rise World Peace, of course 09:49:02 Daemmerung: I give up 09:49:16 *Daemmerung* starts a holy war with adu over the One True Return Date 09:49:33 Daemmerung: The universe will be too busy being reborn to send flying saucers in 2012 09:49:56 2012 is meaningless, the only thing that will happen is a butterfly will flap its wings in Africa, and California will sink, that's all 09:50:52 *eli* goes back to his midterm writing 09:50:52 how can I start gdb with a scheme program? 09:51:06 Daemmerung: its not the "One True" return date, as everyone dies differently 09:51:12 *Daemmerung* goes back to cussing at Powershell 09:51:26 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:51:26 a-s: gdb -p 09:53:01 Zuu [~Zuuo@h207.natout.aau.dk] has joined #scheme 09:53:52 reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has joined #scheme 09:54:01 foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 09:54:10 alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 09:55:09 gdb -p put.sch => Illegal process-id: put.sch. 09:59:28 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:59:39 -!- haptiK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00:40 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:01:43 foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 10:02:53 nono 10:03:07 you run it with plt or something 10:03:14 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:03:42 then "ps -e | grep put.sch" and the first number is the PID 10:03:53 then "gdb -p PID" 10:04:29 ah 10:04:41 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:45 -!- reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:15:25 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-36-161.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:08 I cannot find psd.el for debugging 10:25:04 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:28:27 reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has joined #scheme 10:31:33 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:32:28 -!- reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:41:24 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:44:46 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055208130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46:14 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f050138072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:49:38 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:39 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:49:48 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:50:51 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 10:52:22 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 10:54:45 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:54:48 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:56:16 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:59:29 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 11:03:45 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 11:08:01 haptiK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has joined #scheme 11:08:06 -!- haptiK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:52 haptiK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has joined #scheme 11:11:03 pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:12:09 Daemmerung [~goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 11:13:28 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:18:35 masm [~masm@bl7-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:22:06 schmir [~schmir@p54A91663.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:23:56 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:28:09 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:29:15 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:44 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:30:56 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:35:35 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:04 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 11:38:22 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:39:14 -!- pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:42:45 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:46:43 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 11:47:13 how do you say in english when you take a variable and keep it in a closure, so you can remember its value over different uses of the function? 11:47:28 "the variable is closed over" or something like that? 11:47:54 this might the most stupid question asked here, I know 11:48:02 but I find it important to use the right words 11:48:50 bruxno` [~ET@61.168.0.66] has joined #scheme 11:54:06 anyone succeed in connecting oracle with scheme? it is really hard?.... 11:55:15 There was an sqlora egg for Chicken Scheme version 3 11:55:22 I've never used it though 11:57:21 i have used sqlid for mzscheme .. but it need libsqlora8 at xp.. i can not rein it... 11:57:59 bruxno`: here's what sjamaan mentioned: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/sqlora 11:58:34 thanks mario-goulart 11:58:51 both thanks lol.. 11:58:56 (I haven't used it either) 12:00:36 i have a question . ' (sqlo-connect "scott/tiger") it does not specify the db sid? why? 12:01:06 *sjamaan* has no idea as he's never used the egg 12:01:11 also, how to specify the sid ? 12:01:12 I doubt you'll find anyone here who has 12:01:28 (the egg hasn't been ported to Chicken 4, probably because of a lack of interest) 12:02:21 If you really need it, you'll probably need to dig into the source 12:02:30 Or ask the original author, if he can be contacted 12:03:02 You could try the mailinglist. If you're lucky, someone has used the egg before 12:05:03 you're enthusiastic , really thanks... 12:05:23 Realistic, I'd say. :-) 12:05:30 You might have more luck with the mzscheme library you mentioned, if those authors are still supporting it 12:05:54 (I think the original sqlora egg author is no longer active in the Scheme community) 12:06:21 I think he's gone to clojure. 12:06:48 hm, didn't know that 12:06:53 I've seen some messages from him on the clojure mailing list. 12:07:05 At least he didn't defect to a non-Lisp language :) 12:07:17 :-) 12:10:32 please, could anyone answer my stupid question? :P 12:10:46 Maxel8 [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 12:10:46 alvatar: sorry, I'm not a native sepaker. 12:10:53 speaker, even. 12:10:57 -!- Maxels [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:57 -!- kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- elf [elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- klutometis [~klutometi@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- mhoye [~mhoye@shell.off.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:10:58 -!- slxix [r@li144-113.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:11:01 alvatar: I think "the variable is closed over" is correct, but, like mario-goulart, I'm not a native English speaker either 12:11:11 :) ok 12:11:39 lol i am not ,either.. 12:11:52 oh 12:12:11 alvatar: Wait a few hours and ask again, if it's really important 12:12:38 not so important... :) thanks for your answers! 12:12:42 np 12:12:58 luz [~davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:14:48 slxix [r@li144-113.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 12:14:50 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 12:14:58 mhoye [~mhoye@shell.off.net] has joined #scheme 12:15:16 elf [elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 12:15:18 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:15:45 klutometis [klutometis@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 12:16:13 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest28166 12:18:16 alvatar: the American are awakening. You should be able to get a definitive answer soon. But I agree on the given expression. 12:19:08 Where are all the brits? 12:19:25 At the pub. 12:19:25 so where are you people from? 12:19:29 heh 12:19:34 I'm from the Netherlands 12:19:40 I'm from Brazil. 12:19:43 Spain (but French native). 12:19:53 ah, nice! I though most of the people were french-canadian here hehehe 12:20:01 pjb` really? 12:20:07 haha 12:20:07 I'm from spain 12:20:10 Yes. 12:20:13 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 12:20:18 where? 12:20:24 In La Manga del Mar Menor. 12:20:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-186-158.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:53 hehehe, so you are to enjoy nice weather and beach ;) 12:20:59 Yep! :-) 12:21:12 I'm in Madrid, it's very rainy now here 12:21:38 nice, I like when the community is so international 12:22:01 some languages are somehow tied to regions, strangely enough 12:22:11 20+ C today, some clouds, but sunny :-) 12:22:49 definitely not Madrid. Madrid is not the sunny weather expected in spain. Just as the north of spain! 12:23:36 Well, don't complain, it's much better in Madrid than in Paris ;-) 12:23:36 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:04 alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:24:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:52 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 12:29:00 alvatar: I generally say the variable is closed over. 12:29:07 -!- foof` is now known as foof 12:30:15 (by the function) 12:30:28 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:30:45 alvatar: I don't see a scheme google map, but there is a CL-USER google map. 12:31:19 There's a Chicken google map somewhere on the wiki 12:31:56 And ohloh can also show users of a particular project on a map 12:32:02 http://chicken.wiki.br/users/xsvnwiki-googlemap/ 12:32:20 There you go :) 12:32:30 ah, foof, thanks ! :) 12:32:41 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 12:33:27 interesting map, I see that there is also someone from/living in Marbella 12:33:46 arto, maybe? 12:33:56 that's a finish person? 12:34:01 Finn 12:34:04 I know he's from Spain 12:34:08 Or rather, lives there 12:34:13 http://ar.to 12:34:22 And someone living in a boat off the East coast of Africa. 12:34:23 wow, someone from Nepal 12:34:25 (great domain name ;) ) 12:34:34 heh 12:34:39 A real pirate ;) 12:34:43 hahaha 12:34:54 That's my fish. 12:34:55 I guess you have to have money for that! That's a dream life 12:35:07 Wow you have a fish who can program Scheme? 12:35:29 I am sorry to say that I cannot understand at all how to debug in scheme :( 12:35:32 They have no memory beyond 30 seconds, it makes for implicit tail-call optimizations. 12:35:34 :-) 12:35:35 xwl [~user@124-168-127-20.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 12:35:42 foof: good point! 12:36:01 remember the friend of Nemo, the movie? 12:36:16 That's why he doesn't recognizes me anymore. 12:36:43 a-s: printf debugging works in Scheme too 12:36:52 alvatar: in Marbella, there's Ravenpack SL which uses CL. 12:37:49 sjamaan: it takes weeks to use printf for some problems 12:38:02 sjamaan: I use (display 12:38:20 I use the environment inspection of scheme Gambit 12:38:24 I'm happy with it for now 12:38:43 but I only now this scheme impl, I'm rather new to scheme 12:39:18 a-s: Scheme style is pretty functional 12:39:29 This means it's easy to test little pieces on the REPL 12:39:49 You don't have to run the entire program to test a portion 12:40:06 definitely one of the sweetest things of Scheme 12:40:20 I had to do a telescopic zoom on the chicken map to be able to find myself. :-) 12:40:41 i try edwin, in emacs it is not clear 12:40:52 ? 12:41:11 M-x run-scheme from cmuscheme works well enough for me 12:41:17 why don't you use mit-scheme and you use gambit? 12:41:22 mario-goulart: you're from pelotas? :) 12:41:30 You can send expressions from a buffer to the running scheme process 12:41:33 No need for edwin 12:41:55 alvatar: I live there, but I was born in a city called Bage'. 12:42:56 i know; the lisp-interaction mode 12:45:49 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:06 hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:49:36 I definitely have to grab a beer with any of you that pass by Madrid with some time! (just thought of that) :) 12:50:10 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:51:16 sphex_ [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:51:31 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:21 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:53:08 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:54:06 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:54:10 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:55:10 -!- sphex [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:58:21 What's with channels that begin with `##'? 12:59:16 New Freenode policy; adherence apparently optional 12:59:44 Adherence to what? 13:00:06 Said policy of beginning some channels with ##. 13:00:25 http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#topicalchannels 13:00:28 But what is the policy? 13:01:37 That's as vague as any legal disclaimer I've seen... 13:02:29 Funny. "These channels should not be used as platforms for flaming and trolling." Is this only valid for ## channels? 13:02:59 *mario-goulart* starts trolling on #scheme 13:03:49 What's unclear is -- if ##foo is always a channel that is unofficially for foo discussions, then why would they even allow registering it? 13:04:14 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-193-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 13:05:38 So that chanops can deal with flaming and trolling? 13:06:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 13:07:54 So the official ops of the unofficial channel can kick people out if they like to avoid trolling -- which can come from people who have their own unofficial idea of the foo in question...? 13:07:57 good morning. just a short question: is (in general) under scheme anything considered as true, which is not #f, in an if-clause? (in common lisp, anything not being nil is in general considered to be true in generalized booleans) 13:08:07 ##linux: Linus has no opinion about that channel, but there is a sane consistent community. 13:09:02 ...and following that line, `#scheme' can never exist, only `##scheme'. 13:09:24 schoppenhauer: yes, #f is the only value that is considered as false. 13:09:25 schoppenhauer: anything, except #f, is considered true. 13:09:51 mario-goulart: thx 13:09:55 eli: thx 13:13:10 Oh, and some `#foo' channel that I tried to get into told me to use `##foo' instead, 13:13:18 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 13:13:46 that means that some `foo' official person officially decided that `foo' is unofficial. 13:14:10 /whereis russel 13:14:31 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:14:33 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:24:30 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:36 *sladegen* creates #plt-scheme with the topic "pushing r6rs was a mistake". 13:28:55 incubot: ha ha 13:28:58 *eli* joins ##eli-slaps-sladegen 13:29:37 invited! rotfl, look who is talking. 13:32:27 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 13:38:54 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:40:41 how can I insert a breakpoint ? 13:44:33 a-s: what implementation are you using again? 13:45:40 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:00 mit 13:46:09 -!- bruxno` [~ET@61.168.0.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:46:40 a-s: sorry, I have no idea. 13:46:56 np 13:47:06 life is long. 13:47:30 I usually debug using the print approach. 13:47:31 bruxno` [~ET@61.168.0.66] has joined #scheme 13:47:39 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:03 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 13:48:04 in my case, there is no practical use of print 13:48:53 Not even (with-output-to-file debug-file (lambda () (print "my debug message"))) ? 13:49:09 Ah, you mean there's nothing to print? 13:49:44 There's always something to print! 13:50:14 Yeah, #t. If there's something to be inspected via debugger, there's something to print... 13:54:04 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91663.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:55:46 foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:59:18 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:31 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 13:59:43 -!- amca [~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: good night] 13:59:45 Does scheme have per type operations like [string-,vector-]length only for performance reasons? Or are there other reasons? 13:59:45 -!- hkBst_ [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:09 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:24 It has no generics 14:01:01 Why? 14:01:01 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has joined #scheme 14:01:15 (the numeric tower is a slightly odd exception to that) 14:01:25 I see. 14:01:31 Probably because they couldn't agree on how to do generics ;) 14:01:37 :-) 14:03:06 I don't know about the implementation of generics. But I suppose it'd have to check a tagged object before applying a procedure, right? 14:04:59 Stalin has generics. 14:05:15 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:22 You mean I can (length "string"), for example? 14:05:37 yeah 14:05:54 Amazing. 14:06:03 It does type inference, so it's not expensive. 14:06:14 But sometimes you need to give it hints as to what the types are. 14:06:17 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has joined #scheme 14:06:42 So I can do (map something #(1 2 3)) too? 14:06:59 wingo [~wingo@83.44.191.228] has joined #scheme 14:07:13 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-75-69-96-50.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: copumpkin] 14:07:23 Hmmm... I just checked and it seems only LENGTH, APPEND, REVERSE and COPY are generic. 14:07:33 Ah, ok. 14:07:40 Do you know how scheme picked the non-generics path? 14:07:54 history? 14:08:01 It's easier to implement efficiently. 14:08:19 Ok. That's what I thought. 14:08:41 But wouldn't it be nicer if it was based on generics? 14:08:51 And it's hard to know how to make Stalin produce efficient code. You can end up with the C++ template scenario where the compiler has to compiler multiple versions of the procedure for speed. 14:08:56 -!- foof` is now known as foof 14:08:57 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:38 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:39 Scheme48 also has something like generics, AFAIK 14:09:45 Isn't the type-prefix thing a cheap type indication? 14:10:53 Sort of. It's more flexible than any type declaration system, though, because they're just identifiers which can be implemented in any number of ways or even rebound. 14:11:52 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has joined #scheme 14:13:00 But I really want aggressive type inference! :) 14:13:59 :-) 14:14:34 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 14:14:36 I like the generics thing. 14:15:26 foof: If what you want is (a typed) Scheme, then such type inference is very hard. 14:17:22 foof` [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:17:45 eli: does the presence of macros make the things more complicated? Or even without macros it would be difficult? 14:18:11 Macros are "easy" -- you just expand them away. 14:18:49 Before the type inferencing, I suppose. 14:18:56 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:57 Yes, of course. 14:19:59 That, of course, depends on a sane language... c.f. the r7rs noise. 14:21:27 -!- bruxno` [~ET@61.168.0.66] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 14:22:27 -!- foof [~user@FL1-118-110-51-236.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:00 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:05 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 14:25:44 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has joined #scheme 14:27:08 How are generics implemented? By cond'ing the object type tag? 14:27:53 How else would you do it? 14:28:40 In any case, the Stalin optimizations that avoid that dynamic dispatch are also used to avoid boxed values. 14:29:49 So it means generics can be implemented as an extension library, right? 14:30:01 *foof`* dies a little inside every time someone says the word "fexpr" 14:30:14 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:45 mario-goulart: Yes, provided that you propagate type information properly through libraries (which can be tricky in the presence of higher order functions.) 14:30:59 It would be easier if list hadn't taken `append', `length' and such for itself. 14:31:05 foof`: I just had a related click (following the exam I'm writing): 14:31:26 (regarding to naming) 14:31:36 eli: good point. 14:32:01 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 14:32:19 mario-goulart: Yeah, the list name-kidnapping sometimes pop up as a problem when naming libraries. 14:32:59 foof`: If you take newlisp, and make it lexical scope by default yet still have first class environments and a super cheap `eval', you probably get almost exactly to the point that Tom Harvey wants to be at. 14:33:31 s/lexical scope/lexically scoped/ 14:34:13 *foof`* has never had any inclination to take newlisp for anything 14:34:20 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.44.191.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:24 masm1 [~masm@bl7-38-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:34:38 :-) 14:34:55 oldlisp is too much trouble already. :-) 14:35:28 foof`: Well, have a look -- it does make sense in its own niche -- and I suspect that it makes sense in the same fexpr-nostalgia kind of way. 14:35:29 schmir [~schmir@p54A91663.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:35:33 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91663.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:01 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:36:17 Specifically, there's the fexpr--1st-class-envs connection: fexprs are obvious for such a purely interpreted language, and first class environments compensate for the lack of closures. 14:36:36 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-212-103.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:48 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:16 But what is the niche? It seems like a cute toy, and possibly even useful for education. 14:38:29 hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has joined #scheme 14:38:48 The same as what they're both talking about: a super-hyper-dynamic REPL. 14:39:03 No phases: everything is mushed together. 14:39:45 Which is impossible to reason about and even harder to optimize. 14:40:13 Heh... I was in the middle of typing this: No need for any kind of lexical semantics -- a program does whatever it wants to do. Complete analysis is possible by just running it. 14:40:34 It's explaining why Joe couldn't communicate with Tom. 14:40:52 Regardless, it doesn't belong in the WG1 discussion. 14:41:51 It just might be an effective way to derail the discussion to an extreme: if they agree that it is a sensible choice, then it becomes clearer that it doesn't belong in their current context. 14:42:26 lusory [~bart@bb220-255-249-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 14:42:29 -!- hkBst__ [~hkBst@41.184.82.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:30 (And my guess is that they will actually think that it's a good idea.) 14:43:37 It doesn't actually even matter if it's a good idea, it's contrary to everything written in the charter. 14:44:56 We need to lie somewhere between IEEE Scheme and R6RS (whose phasing semantics are the opposite of fexps), we need proof of implementability, and we need to sell our finished product to the existing Scheme implementations, none of which would ever implement fexprs. 14:45:30 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:48 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-27.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:46:48 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:47:44 *foof`* just wishes everyone in the WG had gotten as far as section 4.1.7 in SICP 14:47:52 reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has joined #scheme 14:48:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 14:49:21 -!- reynard [~alan@n11649204082.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:24 They'd barely standardized packaging! (2.4.3) 14:50:44 *foof`* is ranting a little because he has to be more restrained on the official list 14:51:20 wingo [~wingo@83.32.64.96] has joined #scheme 14:51:46 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:52:36 you do? 14:56:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:00:36 "If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes." 15:00:40 science! 15:01:02 :) 15:01:37 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-27.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:14:57 rotty: Your patches were applied, sorry about the delay. 15:15:47 ze patchess, zey ver appleit. 15:16:07 Just thought I'd translate that in case anyone wanted to know the German. 15:16:22 *foof`* raises an eyebrow 15:17:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:20:29 -!- Zuu [~Zuuo@h207.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:24 pätcheß 15:21:51 ooh, gratuitous umlaut! Well done 15:22:27 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Narrenschiff] 15:22:46 How very metal. 15:25:08 *mhoye* throws up the horns 15:26:09 *offby1* belches the percussion 15:27:21 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 15:30:07 *foof`* farts the woodwinds 15:32:09 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:53 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:34:16 yep 15:34:24 if this gets any worse, remember: mhoye started it 15:34:34 *offby1* hurls his dentures at mbishop just in case 15:38:26 -!- a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:48 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:39:32 krr [~matthias@dslb-084-056-000-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:59 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:40:26 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:43:39 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:48:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:48 HG` [~HG@xdslff066.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:50:15 -!- krr [~matthias@dslb-084-056-000-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 15:52:23 karme [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-001-160.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #scheme 15:52:52 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:52:59 fexpr - say it loud, and there's gangsta rap playing - say it soft, and it's almost like braying - 15:53:13 *offby1* scratches head 15:54:19 Zuu [~Zuuo@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #scheme 16:02:25 -!- Zuu [~Zuuo@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Changing host] 16:02:25 Zuu [~Zuuo@unaffiliated/zuu] has joined #scheme 16:03:30 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 16:04:31 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:32 phao [~phao@189.107.133.51] has joined #scheme 16:06:54 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:08:47 elly: you're reading the crazy chemicals blog too, eh 16:10:02 :P 16:10:51 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13:48 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 16:15:56 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:16:45 how can introspect functions from the dr.scheme repl? 16:17:41 for instance when I was using the ipython repl, one could add ?? to see the buildt in source 16:17:46 -!- errordeveloper [~errordeve@host86-140-98-216.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:18:32 it would have been cool to just type (car)?? 16:19:06 for then to output the source interactively in the repl 16:20:50 -!- Maxel8 [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:30 Maxel [~Maxel@97-90-238-123.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:23:16 I can't think of a way 16:23:29 ngh. 16:23:39 *elly* barely has the energy to be vertical and responsive to stimuli today 16:24:13 *leppie* too, well for the whole week already... 16:25:07 elly: I find coffee does wonders for that particular condition 16:25:18 also waking up early, but who wants to do that? 16:25:24 unfortunately, caffeine can only stave off sleep deprivation for so long 16:25:29 offby1: I have to stop by 2pm, else I cant sleep at night :( 16:25:32 I've been up since 0900, which qualifies as 'early' for me :P 16:25:41 leppie: yeah, my cutoff is closer to noon :-( 16:26:14 elly: get a cat. Allow that cat to grow old. Eventually he or she will wake you up every night at midnight, two AM, four AM, and six AM. 16:26:18 i try to get up by 5:30 to miss traffic, i hate traffic, really, a lot 16:26:19 At least, that's how it worked in my house. 16:26:31 *Daemmerung* laughs 16:26:32 leppie: it doesn't like you either, I hear. 16:26:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:26:49 offby1: that doesn't seem like a win, really 16:26:57 i got my first speeding fine in over a decade the other day 16:27:46 cops are really suppose to be helping kids over the road at 7:15am instead setting up speed traps 16:27:56 anyways. My problems was this. 16:28:11 problem even, 16:28:23 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:26 (make-rat(read)) 16:28:43 so I provide 1 2 16:29:20 procedure make-rat: expects 2 arguments, given 1: 1 16:29:38 how can I make sure it reads both arguments? 16:30:54 josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 16:31:00 morphir, (make-rat (read) (read)) 16:31:02 morphir: by reading two numbers. 16:31:21 read reads only one object. 16:31:34 ahh 16:32:00 pjb: that was why I was askin for documentation of the function 16:32:01 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 16:32:09 (initally) 16:32:18 http://www.schemers.org/ has it. 16:32:21 hello leppie 16:32:35 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:33:20 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34:03 morphir: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/index.html?q=procedure 16:34:17 rudybot: init scheme 16:34:18 sorry 16:34:22 Daemmerung: your scheme sandbox is ready 16:34:27 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/procedures.html?q=procedure 16:35:01 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string "1 2" (lambda () (let* ((a (read)) (b (read))) (printf "~a ~a~n" a b)))) 16:35:01 Daemmerung: ; stdout: "1 2\n" 16:35:31 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string " 11 22 " (lambda () (list (read) (read)))) 16:35:35 pjb: your sandbox is ready 16:35:35 pjb: ; Value: (11 22) 16:35:40 pjb: better 16:35:45 It could have answered (22 11) :-) 16:36:12 yes, it could, but I just turned a string into a string 16:36:12 So yours is better if you want the data read in order. 16:37:28 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string (string-append "(" "11 22" ")") read) 16:37:30 leppie: your sandbox is ready 16:37:30 leppie: ; Value: (11 22) 16:37:47 magic 16:37:51 hey wingo 16:39:26 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:41 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:54 alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:42:48 pjb, Daemmerung: PLT guarantees left to right evaluation 16:43:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-193-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:45:55 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:47:43 -!- karme [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-001-160.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:31 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:49:59 sloyd: I tend to write portable code. 16:51:26 I've written no portable code at all. It's the most portable code there is! 16:51:43 I agree that it is nicer to guarantee left-to-right, but this is something that should be specified in a standard. 16:54:18 pjb, you sound like a candidate for WG1 :P 16:54:21 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslff066.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:39 -!- Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:55:20 Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has joined #scheme 17:00:09 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.32.64.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04:56 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:01 -!- masm1 [~masm@bl7-38-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:04 copumpkin [~copumpkin@dhcp-212-241.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 17:10:31 *Daemmerung* thinks, as long as he's being PLT-specific... 17:11:22 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string "1 2" ( () (let* ((a (read)) (b (read))) (list a b)))) 17:11:23 Daemmerung: ; Value: (1 2) 17:11:28 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:11:39 because screen real estate is precious 17:13:41 masm [~masm@bl7-38-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:15:25 *offby1* should make an "eval weather report" web page 17:15:39 I can tell at a glance how long "eval" is taking, and estimate the likelihood of one succeeding 17:15:41 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string " 11 22 " (lambda () (map read (list (current-input-port) (current-input-port))))) 17:15:42 leppie: ; Value: (11 22) 17:15:56 rudybot: eval (sleep 20) 17:16:01 offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 17:16:01 lol 17:16:11 offby1: error: with-limit: out of time 17:16:15 rudybot: eval (sleep 10) 17:16:26 *offby1* treats the channel to a nice binary search 17:17:07 challenge, closest without going over? 17:17:21 or without killing the bot entirely; no idea where he's off to 17:18:02 rudybot: eval 'moo 17:18:02 leppie: ; Value: moo 17:18:39 I optimized away the (sleep 0) 17:21:25 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:23:48 I optimized away (sleep 28800) last night :( 17:24:35 I wouldn't call that an optimization 17:24:50 288000 sounds like a dial up modem speed. 17:25:10 28800, even. 17:25:20 saccade_ [~saccade@2002:126f:4151:9:21e:c2ff:febb:cedd] has joined #scheme 17:26:01 it's actually 8 hours :( 17:26:40 Ah, so it's an aggressive optimization. 17:26:48 yep... 17:26:57 it's a correctness-affecting optimization, in fact 17:27:17 sounds like fun 17:27:24 Maybe like removing type checks. 17:29:12 more like proving main() unreachable, and folding it away 17:31:09 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:36:01 haptlK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has joined #scheme 17:36:45 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:01 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:37 -!- haptiK [~alsodongs@157.140.112.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:42:22 -!- Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:42:36 Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has joined #scheme 17:48:29 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.133.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:50:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:56 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:55:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:01:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:30 -!- mreggen_ [~mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:52 alaricsp [~alaric@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 18:19:43 Axius [~fd@109.97.40.118] has joined #scheme 18:20:53 What scheme implementation should i download to learn scheme? 18:21:25 plt-scheme.org is beginner friendly 18:22:17 I am on archlinux system? 18:25:03 im on ubuntu 18:29:01 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:30:07 Axius: You'd have to tell me. I don't know what kind of system you're on. 18:32:12 Axius, archlinux seems to come with a drscheme package, which should do what you need 18:32:30 or you can use the distrbutions from the site jonrafkind mentioned 18:33:09 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@2002:126f:4151:9:21e:c2ff:febb:cedd] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:34:44 Arch tends to have extremely up to date packages. Version 4.2.4 was released on January 28th; the Arch package was updated just two days later. 18:36:54 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:39:58 thanks 18:43:21 drscheme-4.2.4-1 18:43:48 this version I've downloaded it. 18:43:56 a winner is you 18:44:50 winner is you too for useing scheme. 18:46:07 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip70-189-108-199.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 18:48:56 is drscheme working only on X because I get this msg: DISPLAY environment variable not set and no -display argument when I run it on console? 18:49:28 -!- Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:40 DrScheme is a graphical IDE. If you want an interactive console-based REPL, run "mzscheme". 18:50:05 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:35 it works. 18:51:16 where can I find some good tutorials to learn scheme? 18:52:02 Poeir [~Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:30 htdp.org 18:52:40 Axius, start here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/ 18:52:50 esp: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/quick/index.html 18:53:11 htdp.org is good for a longer introduction to programming 18:53:20 but you'll learn a lot from it 18:54:07 (... really? I wouldn't say that the PLT guide is an especially friendly introduction to Scheme, except perhaps for those who already have a sure footing in another member of the Lisp family.) 18:56:21 Axius: I always liked the Little Schemer 18:56:36 It appears to be pretty basic, but it gets pretty good near the end 18:56:45 chandler, that's not the general guide 18:57:01 it's entitled: "Quick: An Introduction to PLT Scheme with Pictures" 18:57:24 Axius: Also, TSPL is supposed to be pretty thorough, but I never read it in full 18:57:32 What should I use then? 18:58:02 And Dorai Sitaram's TYSIFD might be useful too 18:58:17 The full text to both that and TSPL are available online 18:58:32 samth: I'd be very surprised if much of anything could be learned from that; it seems more like a demonstration or teaser to me. 18:59:04 TSPL is perfect for the sort of student who likes to dive in to the bottomless pit end of the pool. 18:59:19 :) 18:59:36 Funnily enough, I like Google's first result for "scheme tutorial". 18:59:42 heh! 18:59:53 HtDP is a good introduction to programming in general; those who already know at least one fairly modern programming language will likely grow restless after a while. 19:00:41 wingo [~wingo@83.32.64.96] has joined #scheme 19:00:57 Where can I find those texts? 19:00:58 chandler, I think it's a pretty good intro 19:01:28 choas [~lars@p5B0DD34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:55 it won't work if you aren't a programmer, but that's what htdp is for 19:02:15 Axius: TSPL: http://www.scheme.com/tspl/ TYSIFD: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 19:02:43 The Little Schemer is not available online, but any good bookstore should be able to get it for you 19:03:00 samth: Suppose you gave a student with a background in programming that included writing relatively simple (typical university-level) Java programs this guide. After they read it, what sort of Scheme programs could you ask them to write? 19:04:07 chandler, i really don't know - that's a question that would have to be answered empirically 19:04:22 i wouldn't trust a priori judgment about that 19:05:33 thank you for those links. 19:05:58 Axius: If you're already a programmer, http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken-for-programmers-of-other-languages might be useful 19:06:38 samth: I wouldn't trust it either, but my experience suggests to me that there's simply not enough explanation here to make it a viable introduction for those who aren't already familiar with at least one Lisp dialect. 19:06:58 phao [~phao@189.107.160.207] has joined #scheme 19:06:59 For example, how many students who are not already familiar with one member of the Lisp family tree would be able to parse the description of lexical scope given in section 7: "Scheme is a lexically scoped language, which means that whenever an identifier is used as an expression, something in the textual environment of the expression determines the identifier's binding."? 19:07:23 There's a lot of implicit knowledge packed into that statement! 19:07:27 yes 19:08:00 The careful unpacking of those preconditions is one of the reasons why I like EoPL. 19:08:14 sjamaan: nice docs, those 19:08:28 wingo: Which? Or all of them? :) 19:08:31 yeah, eopl is great, but it's not an introduction to programming 19:08:36 It doesn't really teach Scheme on its own, but that can be handled quite easily with a separate, and simpler tutorial. 19:08:49 sjamaan: well i just looked at the ruby one, was extrapolating to the others :) 19:08:59 heh 19:11:27 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 19:12:02 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@114.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:27:51 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@217.205.201.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:53 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:59 -!- Axius [~fd@109.97.40.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:11 sstrickl [~sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:34:26 -!- wingo [~wingo@83.32.64.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:35:24 wingo [~wingo@81.39.163.133] has joined #scheme 19:37:47 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:39:12 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:48:50 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:52:33 Mr-Cat [~Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:52:58 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:01 Hi. Can plt's scribble import bibtex entries? 19:53:32 Mr-Cat, no 19:53:45 but it could if you wrote a bibtex parser :) 19:55:04 samth: Thanks. I'm looking for a best way to convert bibtex database to a set of wiki pages. Hoped, scribble could help. 20:03:20 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:09:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:42 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 20:13:01 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:21:06 karme [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-001-160.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:39 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:23:10 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 20:25:00 davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has joined #scheme 20:29:33 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has joined #scheme 20:30:29 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 20:33:54 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@70.90.236.161] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:01 mije [~antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:34:56 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:48 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:40:24 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:10 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:43:32 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:43:38 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:00 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:09 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.160.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:30 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:20 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:04:06 I'm having trouble getting responses back from an http server in scheme 21:04:24 seangrove: what server? 21:04:29 This is gambit, and I'm no teribly experienced with scheme, so I'm not sure where the issue lies 21:05:04 Have you tried tracing the network interaction to see where it's going wrong? 21:05:07 mario-goulart: I'm actually writing an http client in scheme 21:05:12 Nope! 21:05:15 How would I do that? 21:05:18 Well, there you go. 21:05:20 Wireshark? 21:05:24 I'd suggest a tool like Wireshark. 21:05:24 Yeah. 21:05:53 Great, that gives me somewhere to start 21:06:09 My problem is that (read server) seems to just sit there blocking 21:06:38 I think it may be waiting for a eol character, but the jetty server it's itneracting with doesn't seem to send a newline 21:06:54 So I don't know how to indicate that it should stop waiting for anymore input 21:07:01 Did you flush the output when sending your request? 21:07:06 Yes 21:07:14 (force-output server) right? 21:07:17 Right 21:07:23 I'll post it 21:07:27 Just a moment 21:07:33 Can you enable logging on the server? See what it's hearing 21:08:00 perhaps it's supposed to be (read (server))... 21:08:39 sladegen: if `server' was a procedure, then read would bitch right away 21:09:10 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:47 (require xml)(permissive-xexprs #t)(xml->xexpr (document-element (read-xml (open-input-file "build.xml")))) <-- Woot 21:11:55 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 21:12:16 phao [~phao@189.107.135.51] has joined #scheme 21:15:02 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:15:58 Hrm, it might be I'm sending bad http headers 21:16:11 Let me flesh that bit out first before I post it 21:17:26 -!- Mr-Cat [~Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:17:51 It could also be my poor understanding of http, heh 21:18:07 It will be nearly impossible to trace this out without seeing the actual data passed to your client from the server. 21:18:23 When I send a request, am I suppose to immediately close the tcp connection, and then reconnection to get the output? 21:18:29 Absolutely not. 21:18:48 You might want to look around for a HTTP tutorial. I think even Wikipedia had a good description of the protocol. 21:18:50 Alright, so I open the connection, send my request, and then read the response, without disconnecting? 21:19:12 Checking out wikipedia 21:19:27 well if its the first time youre writing a client as well as using the server then make the server serve you a static file and make the request from a web browser 21:19:42 if that works, then go debug your client 21:23:19 How would I send in scheme? You can see here on line 10 that I'm not sure: http://pastie.org/843087 21:23:28 -!- Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:24 lisppaste: url? 21:24:24 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 21:24:34 (For future reference.) 21:24:45 I think maybe it should be done in open-tcp-client, I have to set eol-encoding: 'cr-lf 21:24:53 Thanks 21:24:59 That would probably do it. 21:29:03 Len_ [~Len@87.70.4.31] has joined #scheme 21:29:22 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:29:53 Ah yes, looks like we're seeing some progress 21:29:55 It's not hanging 21:30:00 Now to see what data is going back and forth 21:30:22 Time to learn how to use wireshark I suppose 21:38:00 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:38:09 I'm wondering how I know when the header is over, and the body has begun? 21:39:45 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-30-181.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:41:29 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:41:44 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DD34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:41:53 Looking at the curl output, it looks like there's a blank line separating the header and the body 21:42:33 seangrove: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616 21:42:52 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:06 -!- pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:29 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:30 There is a blank line between headers and body, and you can use the content-length header to determine how much you should read from the port before the body is over. 21:43:53 Oh, that's great 21:44:20 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:44:23 If you fail to heed that, and your program just sits there doing nothing, it's blocking waiting for more data to come; of course it never will... 21:46:35 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:13 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:39 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-30-181.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:49:39 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:09 *Daemmerung* just googled a query about xml and found an an answer from jcowan. small intarwebs. 21:51:17 -!- mije [~antoine@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:50 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 21:52:48 jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has joined #scheme 21:53:18 Announcement: 21:53:49 Anyone may join the WG mailing lists as a lurker now, either via the Google Groups site (search for scheme-reports-wg[12]) or in the usual way via the -subscribe addresses. 21:53:54 *Daemmerung* gasps at what he has summoned 21:54:11 Daemmerung: that was spooky 21:54:20 I gotta be more careful 21:54:48 jcowan: very nice. 21:55:49 That was indeed spooky. 21:55:50 -!- xwl [~user@124-168-127-20.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:01 I find it strange when people ask me "Are you the same John Cowan who ..." and I am. 21:56:16 :-) 21:56:32 There are Names that I now know I must never utter in this channel. 21:57:07 Brother, do not call up what you cannot put down. 21:57:23 *Daemmerung* calls up spirits from the vasty deep 21:57:38 But do they come when you do call them? Apparently. 21:57:55 Usually, they're fortified spirits 21:58:03 *jcowan* dumbs Daemmerung the successor of Owain Glyndr 21:58:09 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:45 *Daemmerung* dumbs and dumbers 21:59:02 err, dubs, obviously. 21:59:03 -!- pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:11 Hrmm... no split-string in gambit 21:59:16 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:22 jcowan: whats the subscribe address for the ml? 21:59:46 scheme-reports-wg[12]-subscribe@goog.. 21:59:47 ? 22:00:00 But looks like there's an example split actually defined right in the manual :P 22:00:07 googlegroups.com 22:00:11 karme: http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg1/subscribe 22:00:14 http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg2/subscribe 22:00:27 i mean the email address not that goo... 22:00:34 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 22:00:45 scheme-reports-wg[12]-subscribe@googlegroup.com 22:01:07 jcowan: thx 22:01:38 *karme* tried the rss feed using gnus before, but all messages were truncated :-( 22:01:50 *Daemmerung* joins the Peanut Gallery 22:02:57 Cool. 22:03:09 Anyhow, please spread the word to your other Schemish (Schematic?) playgrounds. 22:04:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:06:43 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:17:00 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:21:16 jcowan: Are you the same John Cowan who answers questions about being the same John Cowan as some other thing? 22:22:14 Indubitably. 22:23:27 -!- SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:42 Good. I'd hate to think I'd had you mixed up with someone else. 22:24:04 emacs/mzscheme gripe: (mark-whole-buffer)(scheme-send-region) hangs the inferior Scheme when called on a buffer that begins with #lang scheme. (The inferior scheme is waiting in a read-syntax.) 22:24:13 Yes, collisions in one's hash tables are bad. 22:24:42 SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 22:24:56 "Yes, chili in the eye is bad, but so is your ear. However, I would suggest you wash your hands thoroughly before going to the toilet." --gadicath 22:25:34 *jcowan* hopes wg1 will soon leave the Proterozoic era. 22:26:01 etpace [~johndoe@etpace.eu] has joined #scheme 22:26:17 Anyone able to clarify what evaluating a dotted list (pair?) in scheme does? will (+ 1 2 . 3) = 6? or what 22:26:36 etpace, that doesn't work 22:26:59 It's an error to do that, which means your Scheme may or may not complain. For that matter, it may make demons fly out of your nose. 22:27:06 aha 22:27:37 so dotted lists evaluate to the same dotted list? 22:27:56 No, it's an *error* to evaluate such a list. 22:28:04 Hm 22:28:12 The error may or may be reported. 22:28:20 And what happens after that may or may not be predictable. 22:28:39 Is the error in the (+..) or just a dotted list in general? 22:28:49 It's not allowed per the syntax. I suspect some Schemes will allow that kind of thing when calling a function that takes a variable number of arguments via a dotted lambda list. 22:29:51 That would be bizarre. 22:30:13 The lambda list that was not a list. 22:30:42 -!- Guest28166 is now known as klutometis 22:33:16 ... Actually, I can't find one that does allow it. My expectations ought to have been higher. 22:42:26 *jcowan* 's Scheme collection is on his laptop, which is at home, so he'll take your word for it. 22:43:05 Hi. 22:43:09 BTW, my pet feature-that-isn't-going-into-Scheme-this-time is allowing lambda lists that are arbitrary trees. 22:43:24 How do you guys judge if a software is good or not in a engineering viewpoint? 22:43:44 jcowan: Destructuring? I'm not sure I'm fond of the idea of incorporating that into lambda lists. 22:44:14 I mean, for example, the unix philosophy of developing softare. I like it because I consider it fun and interesting, but in an engineering viewpoint, why is it good to design software like that? 22:44:32 make things out of reusable parts 22:44:39 so you don't have to redo the same stuff over and over again 22:44:54 Ok. 22:45:04 the fewer side effects those parts have, the more of them you can use together without having to worry about it 22:45:22 Oh, the UNIX philosophy? Just remove all useful, standardized error handling, make all the result types strings that need to be parsed in an ad-hoc fashion by the caller, don't bother to handle spaces or punctuation in the input, and be sure to change all these things between revisions. 22:45:22 However, another part of 22:45:24 if your screws magically changed the consistency of your wood, making nails useless, you'd be pretty pissed 22:45:29 the unix philosophy says that 22:45:38 a software should do only what it should do 22:45:58 that sounds like a tautology 22:46:20 so, a cat program 22:46:27 goes meow 22:46:32 it's not considered good for a cat program 22:46:36 :-) 22:46:41 to add line numbers to the output 22:46:45 because that is not part of its job. 22:46:49 *foof`* wakes up and all the discussions are already over 22:47:24 why is that also considered bad? 22:48:19 phao: If you are enamored of something that you imagine is called the "UNIX philosophy", I suggest you read these two things: the original paper that introduced the concept of Worse is Better, by RPG (http://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html), and the UNIX-HATERS Handbook (http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf). 22:50:08 I'm going to take a look at it 22:50:19 You don't seem to like the unix philosophy. Why chandler ? 22:50:53 Once you read, you'll understand. 22:50:54 I think the references I just pointed you at, combined with my earlier exposition of my own conception of "the UNIX philosophy" ought to be sufficient explanation. 22:52:31 sphex [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:53:15 Keep in mind that both of those works are over 15 years old, but neither's relevance has been diminished by the passage of time, or the turn of the wheel of what we like to call "progress". 22:54:30 nickgibbon [~nring@210.8.201.244] has joined #scheme 22:54:30 -!- melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:29 -!- sphex_ [~nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:55:36 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:12 Hm, the PLT xml->xexpr reorders attributes from the sequence in which a read-xml found them. That's a pity. 22:58:27 fradgers [~fradgers@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 22:59:04 -!- fradgers [~fradgers@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:13 chandler, what OS do you use? 22:59:17 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 22:59:58 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:20 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:22 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:30 xwl [~user@124-168-127-20.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:00:36 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:38 -!- Zuu [~Zuuo@unaffiliated/zuu] has quit [] 23:01:24 phao: Many, all of them terrible in their own right. 23:01:47 Right now I'm looking at a Windows system, but what I'm specifically looking at is a ssh session to a Linux system running irssi. 23:01:50 To my left is a Mac. 23:01:58 Behind the Windows system is another Mac. 23:02:38 On second thought, it might have been more appropriate to answer that with "Emacs". 23:16:36 Daemmerung: Relying on the order of attributes is not the XML way. 23:17:09 -!- wingo [~wingo@81.39.163.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:24 jcowan: I understand that. But when XML is written as a human-readable source file, order matters. No big deal. I can write a rule to move name to the front of the attributes list. 23:18:04 Order of some things, like child elements, absolutely matters. 23:18:08 See the Infoset spec. 23:18:14 (And notice who the editor is) 23:18:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/ 23:19:22 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:19:23 Heh. 23:19:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:38 YOU must be the... ah, never mind. 23:19:41 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:22:19 (I'm munging an ant build.xml file. Sexps are easier on my eyes.) 23:22:46 I must be the WHAT? 23:23:12 The same John Cowan... the VERY same John Cowan who.... 23:23:21 Oh, that. 23:23:43 *karme* waits for irc failing in social communication again ... 23:23:45 I thought you were going to say something like "the one who personally prevented S-expressions from assuming their rightful place in the scheme of things." 23:24:12 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:14 Well, that too, of course. And who keeps the metric system off of American highways. 23:24:29 I'll take the first, but I certainly deny the second. 23:24:48 I hate the Fred Flintstone Memorial Measurement System as much as anybody. 23:24:58 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.25] has joined #scheme 23:25:00 uman [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 23:25:21 Particularly it's *@#$* paper sizes, which could be fixed TOMORROW. 23:25:33 Every printer in the land can handle A4 just as well as 8.5x11 23:25:44 And every paper supplier is happy to supply them. 23:25:57 How can I check to see if a string == ? 23:26:05 ah that lead me to a question i had some days ago: how wide spread is a4 usage? 23:26:06 Anyway. 23:26:17 chandler: Why are you skeptical about destructuring lambda lists? 23:26:33 i have a scheme info doc which i want to render to pdf, and it would benefit from using a4 23:26:46 destructuring-bind is my favorite CL feature. 23:27:11 -!- SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:27:16 That doesn't allow identifiers to appear more than once, does it? 23:29:12 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Quit: b#sc ] 23:29:15 I'm not conversant enough with CL to be authoritative. I can't imagine what it would mean if it did allow such. 23:30:03 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 23:30:52 Whenever I (display (string-append "'" string "'"), I get: '', but if I (display (number->string (string-length string))) I get 2, 23:31:06 Which leads me to believe it's an empty string except for a carriage return and a line feed 23:32:00 seangrove: what does string->list yield? 23:33:40 it could contain nonprinting characters 23:33:47 Presumably it would mean, as in Prolog, that the same thing has to appear there: (define (foo a a) ...) would accept (foo 3 3) but would puke on (foo 3 4). 23:34:03 Daemmerung: Looks like nothing 23:34:29 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:52 SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 23:35:01 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:35:03 THe empty list? 23:35:17 Dark-Star [Darkstar@p57B55CAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:29 Looks like it, yes :D 23:36:35 let me check null? with that 23:36:58 -!- SharkBrain [~gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:23 Does anybody know what the utility of being able to put vectors on the left side of syntax-rules definitions might be? R5RS added this feature, but without rationale. 23:37:33 Looks like it, yes 23:37:36 phew, thank you 23:37:55 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.235.140] has left #scheme 23:39:56 jcowan: perhaps the ability to write quasiquote 23:40:13 Can you explain? 23:41:23 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5ad4c06e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:43:45 If I were to try to write quasiquote in syntax-rules, I'd need vector patterns in the left-hand side of my productions. 23:45:04 e.g. ((quasiquote #(foo ...) (list->vector (quasiquote (foo ...))))) 23:45:24 botched the parens there, but you know what I mean 23:45:59 jcowan, how would you write a macro that processed vectors? 23:46:04 consider match 23:46:28 -!- samth is now known as coocoocachoo 23:46:32 -!- coocoocachoo is now known as samth 23:47:10 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:20 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:47:40 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:55 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:48:14 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:03 Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.81.22] has joined #scheme 23:51:04 I wonder if structure packages exist that generalize quasiquote to the structures they define? 23:51:25 (thinking of compound forms other than lists and vectors) 23:51:31 hi 23:54:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:01 -!- uman [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:55:14 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:57:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++]