00:06:39 TR2N [email@89-180-181-57.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 00:09:05 devslashnull [~james@202.3.37.222] has joined #scheme 00:09:54 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:11:58 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:12:15 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:14:38 -!- foof [~user@FL1-125-198-249-114.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:07 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-93-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:40 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-178.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 00:19:41 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 00:20:12 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:11 is there anyone who would be so kind to explain me a few things about variables in Scheme? 00:21:34 only one way to find out :) 00:21:51 u're right 00:21:56 Blkt`: what kinds of things are you confused about? 00:22:18 I am defining a variable with (define a #\a) 00:22:33 and I'm trying to modify it with set! 00:22:37 but it doesen't work 00:22:56 I'm using PLTScheme with Module language 00:23:14 R5RS doesen't even let me say (define a #\a) 00:23:36 hmm, works for me 00:23:49 omg 00:24:11 oh wait 00:24:26 I just found out that I couldn't because of the repl 00:24:29 how are you invoking pltscheme? 00:24:41 I'm on windows, just doubleclick 00:24:50 oh, that's different 00:24:58 i'm using command-line mzscheme 00:25:01 but I just noticed that I can modify with set! in the editor panel, but not in the repl pannel 00:25:13 i have no idea what you're talking about 00:25:19 just launch mzscheme 00:25:36 forget GUI stuff 00:25:47 it will only distract you 00:26:07 actually I was trying to make it work with emacs 00:26:12 no luck so far... 00:26:51 ok, when I launch DrScheme.app (i'm on mac), i get 2 panes 00:27:16 definition pane and repl pane, isn't it? 00:27:27 the top looks like source, the bottom looks like repl 00:27:39 y 00:27:46 sure, whatever they're called 00:28:03 write (define a 3) in source pane 00:28:07 ok 00:28:09 then C-t 00:28:19 then in repl pane write (set! a 6) 00:28:23 does it work? 00:28:58 you mean M-t (on mac) 00:29:19 mmm I suppose 00:29:23 Blkt`: why don't you just write (set! a 6) in the defn plane 00:29:43 because I need to set it at runtime 00:29:48 ok 00:30:06 when I type (set! a 6) in the repl it executes it 00:30:11 when i type 'a' 00:30:13 it says 6 00:30:25 language? 00:30:29 I don't see the problem 00:30:38 I wish I didn't see it too 00:30:49 it says "Welcome to DrScheme ... Language: R5RS" 00:30:56 I get "set!: cannot modify a constant: a" 00:32:04 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:32:05 oddmunds [~oddmunds@cm-84.208.72.55.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 00:33:44 Blkt`: do you have a DrScheme too? or only PLTScheme? 00:34:18 DrScheme 00:34:31 is that what you're running? 00:34:41 y 00:35:02 do you have an mzscheme? 00:35:16 y I do 00:36:14 try running cmd.exe, then mzscheme.exe 00:36:35 or use (define foo bar #:mutable) 00:36:38 I think 00:36:56 is that R5RS? 00:37:09 Definitions typed in the upper pane are considered in their own module. 00:37:24 This is not standard Scheme. 00:37:28 I see 00:37:37 -!- kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:37:55 So if you type define blah... set! blah... in the lower pane, it works. Type the define in the upper but set! in the lower, and it doesn't work. 00:37:57 so if I define a function that set!s the variable INTO the upper pane I should be able to use it? 00:37:58 wait.... I'm completely talking out of my ass according to the docs 00:38:02 ignore that 00:38:14 lol kk :D 00:38:23 Blkt` try running mzscheme.exe -f test.ss -i 00:38:30 k 00:38:31 If you type the (set! ...) as part of an expression in the upper pane and run that, you're fine. 00:38:31 where 'test.ss' is a file you've made 00:39:06 I really hate Windows 7 Powershell... 00:39:15 Blkt`: then use linux 00:39:24 I do on my laptop 00:39:30 good for you 00:39:35 I'll format here too son 00:39:37 soon 00:39:49 wasn't powershell going to be called monad? 00:40:05 Ha. Like that'd ever get past Marketing. 00:40:16 maybe make 'test.ss' something like (define a 3), and then load it as above, then try typing 'a' 00:40:36 -!- devslashnull [~james@202.3.37.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:40:55 hearing about powershell was my first exposure to the word "monad" 00:40:58 *copumpkin* sighs 00:41:08 devslashnull [~james@202.3.37.222] has joined #scheme 00:41:22 copumpkin: hearing about powershell was my first exposure to bullsh*t 00:41:31 *copumpkin* has never used it :) 00:42:00 Posh is okay. 00:46:16 adu: doesen't work wither that way 00:47:08 it works defining a "helper" function that wraps set! 00:49:43 thanks for the help anyway guys 00:50:00 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:51:12 kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:00:38 -!- bweaver [~user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:49 Len_ [~Len@87.70.252.80] has joined #scheme 01:06:53 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:10:24 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:13:13 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:51 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has left #scheme 01:15:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:21:25 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:26:16 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@ip68-0-123-16.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: josephholsten] 01:28:56 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:33:02 Blkt`` [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 01:36:33 *mejja* recommends http://myreckonings.com/wordpress/2009/12/31/a-2010-graphical-computing-calendar/ 01:36:34 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-178.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:01 -!- mmc [~mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:53:56 -!- brx [brx@erxz.com] has left #scheme 02:06:40 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-167.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:06:49 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-167.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:07:20 jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-llbqsquvxlmoxdqv] has joined #scheme 02:11:38 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:11:41 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-169-88.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:13:33 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 02:15:06 foof [~user@isa7-dhcp-116-237.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:18:17 -!- PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@f055197100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:22 PygoscelisPapua [~pygospa@g230095062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:20:45 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.192] has joined #scheme 02:26:09 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-152-207.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:43 annodomini [~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:44 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:26:44 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:28:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:28:54 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:19 -!- Blkt`` [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night] 02:38:49 -!- devslashnull [~james@202.3.37.222] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:40:01 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-167.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:44:05 -!- luz [~davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:44:36 scottj [foobar@97-113-167-22.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:38 Riastradh pasted "PARALLEL-MAP, using " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95092 03:02:35 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:32 :o 03:09:37 he's pasting but he's not here! 03:10:09 that's not really him, it's just a worker thread 03:22:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:22:26 Zuu_ [zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #scheme 03:22:50 guenthr_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #scheme 03:23:00 mrd`_ [~matthew@shinobi.dempsky.org] has joined #scheme 03:23:07 zbigniew_ [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 03:23:48 -!- mrd` [~matthew@shinobi.dempsky.org] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:25:02 -!- samth [~samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:28:35 -!- Zuu [zuu@unaffiliated/zuu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28:36 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28:36 -!- guenthr [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:31:41 _pr0t0type_1 [~prototype@cpe-66-65-36-202.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:49:19 -!- scottj [foobar@97-113-167-22.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:54:32 -!- Len_ [~Len@87.70.252.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:56:01 eli annotated #95092 "Plain `parallel-map' in PLT" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95092#1 03:56:26 Len_ [~Len@87.70.252.26] has joined #scheme 03:56:42 eli annotated #95092 "Yet another one" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95092#2 03:57:53 -!- jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-llbqsquvxlmoxdqv] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:58:03 -!- kniu [~kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:01 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:59:18 Boo! 03:59:44 Actually, copumpkin, I am here. 03:59:54 he's spying on us! 04:00:09 *copumpkin* puts away his secret things and tries to look innocent 04:12:07 Lively evening, I see. 04:14:05 same here, ugh 04:14:11 *elly* has transfinite quantities of homework 04:15:13 I hope you're not trying to finish it with vanilla induction -- you need transfinite induction for that. 04:15:32 yeah, I know 04:15:41 well, I can only do finitely much of it in any one night, which is the real problem 04:15:44 pff, the ordinals are nonsense anyway 04:15:57 *copumpkin* can count up to 3 and that's enough 04:16:14 *elly* doesn't want to find all spanning trees of a 12-node graph 04:16:15 Whoa...you got to the odd prime numbers! I usually don't get past the even ones. 04:18:10 -!- _pr0t0type_1 [~prototype@cpe-66-65-36-202.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:19:56 *elly* oscillates randomly 04:20:15 :o 04:20:31 *Riastradh* quickly jots down measurements of elly's random oscillation to save some of that entropy for later. 04:20:54 it just occured to me that if I sprint, I can finish my entire graphics project now 04:21:11 Riastradh: you can't prove they're random 04:30:04 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 04:32:41 nine nine nine nine 04:38:06 Daemmerung, why do you say that a concurrent MAP won't necessarily be simple to cook up with green threads? 04:47:10 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:21 Riastradh: all the threads will block when the first blocks on a syscall. 04:50:36 That would be a pretty seriously broken thread system. 04:50:45 What Scheme systems exhibit that bug? 04:50:47 That would be a green thread system. 04:52:13 I know MIT Scheme had a bug in OPEN-*PUT-FILE on fifos that could cause all threads to block until someone opened the other end of the fifo, but I fixed that a while ago (as well as it can be fixed on Unix). 04:53:50 (Ideally, as soon as the system call blocks on I/O, Scheme should schedule the next thread, but there's no non-blocking open(2), so the best that can be done in that situation is for Scheme to schedule the next thread as soon as a timer interrupt comes along.) 04:54:38 huh? green threads means that a timer interrupt runs some other process, since the scheme process has only one 'real' thread 04:54:53 the problem with green-thread systems is that blocking syscalls block the entire process 04:55:34 Maybe you have a different definition of `green threads' from mine, which is threads that are scheduled by Scheme rather than by the operating system. 04:55:40 right 04:55:56 unless scheme does something about open(), that open() causes the scheme process to be blocked 04:56:03 which means it doesn't get the opportunity to schedule anyone else 04:56:11 It causes Scheme to block until a timer interrupt arrives. 04:56:16 ...no? 04:56:23 that's not what 'blocking' means 04:56:23 Unless, of course, you have disabled timer interrupts, but why would you do that? 04:56:36 do you mean alarm(2)? 04:56:37 (Here, `timer interrupt' usually means SIGALRM.) 04:56:40 AH! 04:56:41 okay. 04:56:58 'timer interrupt' has a very specific meaning in kernel-land; that use of it confuses me 04:57:11 On Windows, in user-land, you're blocked. 04:57:35 Of course, I also assume that you haven't sigaction'd SIGALRM with SA_RESTART. 04:57:53 Unless you have another thread. Another real (ripe, not green) thread. Or have used some non-blocking syscall. 04:58:19 *elly* -> graphics homework! 04:58:33 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-103.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:42 *Daemmerung* -> dishwashing 04:59:19 -> cursing at his macbook air 04:59:19 Riastrad1 [~riastradh@129.170.131.254] has joined #scheme 04:59:27 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:59:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 04:59:41 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 04:59:47 Boink. 05:00:00 -!- gtab2 [~gtab@h-149-70.A256.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:00:36 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:01:44 Bonk. 05:01:49 Bing... 05:01:57 Boom. 05:02:15 B--, yeah, that's all I've got. 05:03:06 copumpkin: You don't like your air? I would think that the Macbook wouldn't pollute the air too much, given Apple's political leanings. 05:03:19 :P 05:03:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:32 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:40 Pray, tell, how bad does a Macbook smell? 05:03:47 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:03:53 the first generation smells terrible 05:04:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:02 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:03 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:29 Now why is it that on this internet so robust, this IRC thing still exhibits random user-visible network failures? 05:04:54 What Internet so robust? 05:05:14 -!- nothingHappens [~nothingha@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:05:30 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:05:35 Spanning trees 05:05:37 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:16 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:36 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 05:09:11 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@pool-151-199-44-138.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 05:09:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:57 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:14:23 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 05:19:42 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-181-57.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:20:54 TR2N [email@89.180.151.10] has joined #scheme 05:24:45 -!- leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-3-197.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:04 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:26 leppie [~lolcow@dsl-243-3-197.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:48:04 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-103.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 05:51:43 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #scheme 05:52:54 my god. 05:52:59 *elly* has been fighting C++ for the past two hours 05:53:13 who thought it was a good idea for a compiler to emit a half-page error message when you have a missing *? 05:55:05 Probably the same people who thought it was a good idea to write a C++ compiler in C 06:02:49 Jafet, two las words are optional 06:03:27 last 06:07:47 haven't you heard? c++0x will solve all your problems! 06:10:15 oh noes, we all in the wrong place! 06:11:54 elly: it is not much different from scheme's UNEXPECTED RIGHTPAREN just before the end of file. 06:12:39 and that's why I like using [ ] too :) 06:14:44 I thought that was the real reason we were told to prefer short definitions 06:15:42 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:45 What is this `unexpected rightparen' of which you speak? 06:21:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:33 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 06:26:23 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:34:58 klic [~kenli_101@ud10.cs.ualberta.ca] has joined #scheme 06:35:32 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:35:52 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:36:01 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:31 bokr [~bokr@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:39:57 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[Quit: leaving] 19:49:07 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:55:57 pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:34 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:48 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:05:59 -!- _pr0t0type_ [~864a4a30@gateway/web/freenode/x-gdojwlviezswtbcl] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:08:14 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:36 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 20:24:50 TR2N [email@89-180-200-34.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 20:25:41 -!- pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: must reboot this damn macosx for a mere upgrade!] 20:33:30 sundaymorning [~r00t@189.107.184.230] has joined #scheme 20:34:39 -!- sundaymorning [~r00t@189.107.184.230] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:47 sundaymorning [~root@189.107.184.230] has joined #scheme 20:36:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:39:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 20:49:58 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 21:00:31 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:03:18 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:32 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:07:01 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:14:25 jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-uwsckvbagnaolqkk] has joined #scheme 21:17:36 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 21:24:31 -!- jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-uwsckvbagnaolqkk] has left #scheme 21:37:01 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:37:58 -!- foof` [~user@FL1-122-131-198-106.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:44:01 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:45:12 so what's up with the working groups? 21:49:59 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:50:33 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:52:22 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:53:27 they're working. http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg1 and 2 21:54:14 ah, indeed. i need to subscribe. 21:55:21 hm, only for archives, it seems.. 21:55:40 -!- kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:33 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:04:34 pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:05:36 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:05:42 -!- mrd`_ is now known as mrd` 22:10:34 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 22:11:56 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-233-23.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:15:12 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:17:03 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.229] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:20:00 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-233-23.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:59 schmir [~schmir@p54A9012A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:29:06 Is it possible to be read-only-subscribed to the WGs mailing lists? 22:29:45 *wingo* does not know 22:30:16 There are RSS feeds, which is not bad. 22:31:26 i'm still in web 1.0... 22:31:32 I hate mailing lists, they are so annoying to subscribe and use 22:32:06 get off my lawn! 22:32:16 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-93-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:31 :) 22:33:02 :P 22:33:06 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-200-34.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:05 actually, mailing lists are the best public medium. 22:35:26 yes but most are full of junk 22:35:40 their usability could be better though. 22:35:49 junk == spam and such 22:36:00 i liked r6rs-discuss, bikeshed academy though it was 22:36:25 i'm really amazed that they never get deleted or cleaned 22:36:49 awesome, no results found for bikeshed academy. win. 22:37:18 finding things in a mailing list which has nothing do to either with the subject or the mailing list is ...bah 22:37:23 what shall i say... 22:37:27 but, think about it. ml does have chronological tracking, so there is no time contstraint as there would be with irc/im or a bulletin board 22:37:39 I thought it was more like the bikeshed painting world championships 22:37:39 Huh, I read that as a participle of "to bikesh." I fail at English. 22:40:40 I like nntp for public medium 22:40:51 "what-a-guy" :-) 22:40:56 I think it's far better than mailing lists 22:41:03 Crito [~none@LINERVA.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:41:14 masm [~masm@bl7-93-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 22:41:20 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9012A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:16 NNTP is apparently too hard for Google. 22:42:16 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:59 i hope the working groups turn out well. 22:43:51 They look promising. 22:43:57 ... They do? 22:44:01 TR2N` [email@89-180-175-242.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 22:44:29 I haven't spent long looking at their activities, but what I saw of WG1 was enough to convince me not to regret not having applied. 22:44:37 i'm currently reading writings typical of their authors, and wondering how they will agree 22:45:11 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:21 e.g. tom 22:45:45 Blessed are the peacemakers. 22:46:02 indeed 22:46:43 -!- kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:05 Blessed are the implementors, for they understand what it takes to turn a standard into something useful. 22:47:50 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:53 Sands [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #scheme 22:48:01 -!- Sands is now known as Morbeo 22:48:08 Indeed, chandler. 22:48:22 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:06 kniu [~kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:49:16 Blessed are the word-mincers, for they shall inherit the Scheme. 22:49:43 haha 22:50:03 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:04 Blessed are the non-committee-members, for they shall suffer the standard 22:50:14 A fucking men. 22:50:24 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 22:50:24 i'm not actually negative about the thing, but it's nice to grouse about it :) 22:50:42 *mario-goulart* is positive 22:50:49 *wingo* is wait-and-see 22:51:16 *mario-goulart* is wait-and-see too, but positive anyway 22:51:44 yeah, i'm tending towards that. still, they need luck and good-will to do it well 22:51:51 I'm tenatively negative. I think there some people involved in the process who should not be contributing to it, and the justification for their presence is extremely flimsy. 22:52:44 I'm doubtful that the group as it is will find a mandate for anything more than putting a fresh coat of paint on the R5RS, which in the absence of any compelling reason to do so will likely not improve on it on the whole. 22:52:51 The justification being, 1) better to have them throwing rocks from inside the tent than from outside (note to self: do not sell those people insurance), and 2) nobody else volunteered. 22:53:46 I'm not sure what throwing rocks has to do with anything. 22:54:03 They wanted the bitchiest critics to be part of the new standard. 22:54:20 Why? 22:54:55 That analogy is usually used for big-tent politics, and I'm not sure that the operation of those types of political parties is anything to model a standards committee after. 22:54:56 chandler: you're probably right; still for the latest scheme standard to ratify r5 or r4 is probably good 22:55:12 (regarding fresh coat of paint) 22:55:21 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:39 simply because of the weight of something being the "latest" 22:55:49 Why bother? The R(4,5)RS isn't going away. It's not like there are grants or government contracts out there that require development projects to use the latest version of the standard. 22:56:06 hm, not for money i think 22:56:26 but the simple progression implies to the ignorant that r6 supplants r5 somehow 22:56:27 That's why I don't fathom BH's bile. He has R4, and R4 is a perfectly lovely language. Why not use it? 22:56:43 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 22:57:05 Daemmerung: that's the thing, right -- r4 is lovely. if they could find a way to have r4 and r7 and them both be scheme -- sound nice? 22:57:11 perhaps impossible. 22:57:23 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:57:24 dunno. 22:57:27 I'm not sure what value that provides. 22:58:08 probably nothing except "marketing" value 22:58:21 i don't mean that disparagingly, but it's a bit vacuous, no? 22:58:40 What's vacuous? Marketing value? 22:58:43 yeah 22:58:46 I don't disagree. 22:59:01 hey, midnight. 22:59:13 *Daemmerung* watches wingo carefully 22:59:21 rar 22:59:34 so many people think that r6 usurped scheme 22:59:46 as if it could be usurped (?) 22:59:47 I think that a revision ought to attempt to address substantial issues in the previous revision, and if none are to be found, then the process should cease. The R6RS was in fact a serious attempt at this, but I think it's clear that a great many people did not actually want those problems to be solved. 23:00:10 a simple statement that "this thing that's like r5 is scheme; and so is this thing with libraries" 23:00:30 -!- TR2N` [email@89-180-175-242.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00:47 chandler: i know of few people that did not want a standard library/module system for scheme 23:00:55 it's a worthy problem 23:01:00 TR2N [email@89-180-139-118.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 23:01:13 well. few schemers anyway :) 23:01:22 uman [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 23:01:28 The R6RS wasn't *about* libraries, though. I don't think the division of the R6RS into a language and library document did anything other than confuse a great number of people, since neither one of those two is a complete document. 23:02:09 well, consider. r5rs with letrec* for internal bindings would probably be better. 23:02:19 so that's a slight improvement. 23:02:36 then, here's where i relate that statement with your statements but fail to do so. 23:02:47 ;) 23:03:37 *wingo* naively wishes we could all get along, kum ba ya, &c 23:03:45 The R6RS staked out a direction towards a more static language, which does in fact make things a great deal easier and more sensible from a semantician's viewpoint. If you revert back to the R5RS world, then what direction should you go? 23:03:51 Just add `letrec*' and call it a day? 23:03:57 hehe 23:04:02 yeah maybe? 23:04:10 dunno. 23:04:18 some people are still miffed about multiple values 23:04:21 This isn't a rhetorical question. I actually think there are answers, but I don't think any will come of the WG process. 23:04:39 -!- uman is now known as Libster_omega 23:05:21 One failing of the R6RS process was that it standardized features invented out of whole cloth. So far, I haven't seen any indication that the next Scheme will avoid this pitfall. 23:05:43 That was its great failing, I agree. 23:06:00 hm, improvements over r5 -- letrec* we said. 23:06:09 delimited continuations would be another one imo. 23:06:22 we could make call/cc be in a library. 23:06:51 *wingo* perhaps unduly enamored of delimited continuations recently 23:06:55 chandler: However, if we are to believe the statements of its chairs, R7 will not repear that error. 23:07:02 Won't repeat it, either. 23:07:15 Rather than pushing the process forward as a repudiation of the R6RS, thereby committing the same mistakes, I'd have been content to wait until some alternative direction emerged and actually began to be implemented before discussing how syntax and semantics could be agreed upon. 23:07:34 wingo: I think delimited continuations are nearly standardization-worthy. 23:07:47 chandler: the only problem is implementation lag 23:08:06 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-139-118.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:08:10 plt has them, but does s48 have them integrated yet? 23:08:44 I don't know. 23:08:56 their theory is sound at least 23:09:07 TR2N` [email@89.180.167.55] has joined #scheme 23:09:35 -!- Libster_omega is now known as Libstar 23:10:15 Daemmerung: A declared intention to avoid the problem doesn't necessarily mean that it will be avoided. I'm not sure that the current structure is actually conducive to this. It certainly isn't what I'd design if I wanted to avoid this problem. 23:11:08 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 23:11:52 I would have argued for some form of open-submission process where ad-hoc working groups could promulgate draft standards, attract implementors, and ultimately be commented on or ratified by a committee. 23:12:55 wingo: femtolisp claims to implement delimited continuations too 23:12:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 23:14:19 The chest-beating on the femtolisp project page discouraged me from checking it out. 23:14:25 *Daemmerung* leaves to practice 23:14:51 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:05 :-) 23:15:15 -!- Libstar [~uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:15:20 mario-goulart: it doesn't really; it does so via cps-rewriting of the body of one function 23:15:28 still, i thought it was a neat gesture 23:16:50 ah, ok 23:18:02 wingo: I think the best counter-argument I can come up with for putting a fresh coat of paint on the R(4,5)RS merely to reaffirm the concept of Scheme described in those documents as the latest version is that standards are essentially unnecessary. 23:19:02 A number of (syntactically) new languages have been created without any such standardization process, and even more surprisingly have managed to attract independent implementations despite the lack of a standard. 23:19:20 chandler: surely "to promote interoperability among sites", and all that? 23:19:36 i.e. original rrs rationales 23:20:07 perhaps you consider the current standards as impositions and not as agreements? 23:21:29 Given the whole-cloth nature of many of the R6RS's innovations, I wouldn't describe it as documentation of an agreement. 23:21:51 right; so that's fairly clear, that the r6rs process was pretty broke 23:21:56 Morever, I don't think those rationales actually hold a quarter-century later. 23:21:58 with results in its product 23:22:21 One implementation can, in fact, serve as the de facto standard for a language, and this one implementation can run on virtually every widely-deployed computing system. 23:23:47 Cross-system portability has removed one of the original impetuses behind standardization. There's no longer a need to document a language so that the implementation for the IBM and the implementation for the VAX agree. 23:23:51 hmmmm, point; but i like the fact that anyone can be a scheme 23:23:59 you don't have to be a second-rate python 23:24:53 I'm attracted to that as an ideal, but I think that can follow the development of a de-facto standard implementation, rather than lead the implementation process. 23:25:44 that wasn't happening with libraries; it seemed a good topic for targeted discussion 23:25:55 though it didn't work out. 23:25:57 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:40 I don't think that kind of consensus is ever going to arise between the existing implementations of Scheme. I've no desire to implement a new Scheme and follow some other implementation exactly. 23:26:52 If I want a Scheme48 with a JIT, I'll add a JIT to Scheme48. 23:27:06 not sure how that statement relates to standardization 23:27:18 (It was probably a bad example.) 23:27:24 np 23:27:43 It might be better if I had said "delimited continuations". 23:27:53 if there were some sort of libary definition that people were happy with, that would be great 23:28:05 i'm all for srfi-like voluntary standards 23:28:16 *mario-goulart* too 23:28:27 but a library standard would be really great, however it came about, if people were happy with it 23:29:09 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:29:23 I think any attempt to standardize libraries will just expose a substantial amount of real, non-trivial semantic disagreement in the non-R6RS community. 23:29:43 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 23:29:48 Even the R6RS suffers from a lack of agreement in one substantial area (phase separation). 23:31:10 well of course standardization exposes disagreement 23:31:14 agreement, too 23:31:34 it's just an "is-it-worth-it" thing, right? 23:32:47 What I was trying to say is that the disagreement is substantial enough to sink any attempt at consensus standardization, or which will result in a standard that's watered down enough to be nearly useless. 23:34:43 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 23:37:03 Perhaps I'm being unduly pessimistic, but it seems to me that the only common ground left in the non-R6RS community is a dislike of the R6RS, and if we discard the opinions of some of the WG1 participants, a basic affirmation of `syntax-rules' and `call/cc'. 23:40:41 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:43:05 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-57-3-244.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:47 kuribas [kristof@d54C4377F.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 23:54:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:55:23 -!- masm [~masm@bl7-93-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:18 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:05 i don't think i can possibly get through that wg1 thread 23:59:14 340 messages!