00:03:05 In ER Macros, is the input form a proper syntax object or equivalent in the sense that the form can contain a number of elements with different wraps on them? 00:04:18 So, for instance, if I had two identifiers exit.1 and exit.2 and I wanted to output those identifiers in the output of my macro, and also wanted to introduce a new identifier that will be visible to all the code that can see exit.2, how would I do this? 00:06:02 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:52 copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:09 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 00:09:59 I think the preference for case-folding is basically "We are Scheme, we are cool, whatever we've been doing for 50 years is SACRED, YOU WILL NOT TOUCH IT." 00:10:29 And that's for an extremely lame value of "cool". 00:11:32 But I shouldn't be speaking -- "good riddance to them; they're not Scheme" can work from several directions. 00:12:06 -!- jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-erxsjpdylpmjuhnt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:13:46 I rather wonder why there wasn't more public screaming about the Great Identifier Renaming in R2RS. 00:13:56 Maybe there was and it's just inaccessible now. 00:14:14 NO NO NO! You will not take away the names RPLACA and MAPCAR!" 00:15:14 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.171] has joined #scheme 00:16:46 snearch [~olaf@g225050140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 00:17:03 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5B79C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:51 -!- Mr_Awesome [~eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Hilarity ensues.] 00:20:33 Aha! "Until practically yesterday, we have had over half a century of precedent that symbols are case insensitive" -- http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg1/msg/b76aa95133b751cd 00:21:26 I tried to respond to that more in sorrow than in anger, but I don't know if it's working. 00:21:51 rudybot: give jcowan '|a big glass of whiskey| 00:21:52 jcowan: mejja has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 00:22:05 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 00:22:09 jcowan: your sandbox is ready 00:22:09 jcowan: ; Value: |a big glass of whiskey| 00:22:12 Oh, case sensitive, hey? 00:22:14 Cool. 00:22:39 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 00:22:40 jcowan: ; Value: |a big glass of whiskey| 00:22:49 The ridiculousness in that is that it's coming from a person who keeps mumbling about some "jewel-like" idea, yet is perfectly willing to drag in unicode just to preserve case-insensitivity. 00:23:25 (And I don't think that he ever referred to unicode as a jewel.) 00:23:25 No, he's saying that if the source is Unicode, you have to case-fold by Unicode rules. I agree that Unicode case-folding is the Right Thing. 00:23:54 Mr_Awesome [~eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:58 "if the source is unicode"? So cases is folded "sometimes"? 00:26:42 The reference to Unicode explains *how* to fold. 00:26:45 -!- snearch [~olaf@g225050140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:27:07 In principle you should use the Unicode folding tables even if the source (or input, in the case of READ) is something else. 00:27:43 snikeris [~user@96.245.129.111] has joined #scheme 00:28:16 Anyhow, I think my own proposal at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc46qrdf_17w7v486hc is much more equitable than either R5RS or R6RS. 00:28:38 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:04 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:12 -!- Mr_Awesome [~eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:47 Hi all, this should be a relatively easy one: I have a function that takes two arguments and I have a list that contains the two arguments that I want to pass in. Is there some way to split the list up so that it's elements are used as the inputs to my function? 00:30:51 jcowan: Modulo the "until the next flag", it seems reasonable, but I think that it was suggested more than once in the past. 00:31:15 eli: So you think only one flag should be allowed? 00:31:24 r5rs apply 00:31:25 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_556 00:31:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2kjgxd 00:31:34 jcowan: And BTW, the `#cs' and `#ci' syntaxes are doing the same in plt too. 00:31:47 The next datum only? 00:31:51 rudybot: eval '(xXx #ci yYy zZz) 00:31:55 eli: error: with-limit: out of time 00:32:11 rudybot: You *should* say: (xXx yyy zZz) 00:32:11 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 00:32:15 snikeris: ^^^ 00:32:54 sladegen: ? 00:32:57 jcowan: Yes, one flag seems more sensible, though I wouldn't have a strong opinion about that. 00:33:06 apply 00:33:11 ahh, thanks 00:34:02 I always get mixed up about saying sensitive and insensitive, so I call them folding and preserving. 00:34:19 It's also significant that Unicode case-folding is downcasing. 00:34:22 jcowan: In any case, the argument of letting implementations have their own defaults is a very sensible one IMO, which is why I remember it being shot down several times. 00:34:52 (I always get mixed up about saying folding and preserving, so I call them sensitive and insensitive.) 00:35:11 Naah. 00:35:28 If you don't like "case-folding", go with "case-smashing". 00:35:39 But "preserving", how can that confuse anybody. 00:35:45 "folding" is hard wired in my brain to that activity you do with paper, 00:36:01 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-96-124.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:14 Graffito in Schemeland: SMASH THE STACK 00:36:24 folding sensitive and insenstive to preservation... 00:36:48 incubot: head explodes! 00:36:51 Yeah. I don't understand it, but it sticks in my head nonetheless. 00:37:13 jcowan: "preserving" is something that I'm even more confused with, since I have vague memories of different obscure options in places that try to deal with bad historical brain-dead case decisions: Windows paths and Allegro syntax. 00:38:21 That is -- I usually associate "preserving" with what OSX does in its paths. 00:39:04 s/OSX/Windows and OSX/ 00:39:09 Well, "folding" *is* a metaphorical kind of paper folding: you fold the upper case (of little bitty backwards letters) onto the lower case, making them isomorphic. Mostly. 00:39:43 Some of the lower case sticks out past the fold. 00:40:33 As a non-native-english-speaker I fail to see any visual connection between "a" and "A", let alone some way to fold the latter into the former. 00:40:52 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.33.145] has joined #scheme 00:40:54 s/speaker/reader/, probably. 00:41:14 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-57-82-249-10-215.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:41:15 -!- Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Narrenschiff] 00:43:46 Yes. Once you get past Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, and Armenian, case doesn't exist. 00:43:51 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 00:45:03 Mr_Awesome [~eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:45 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-135.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:09 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.250] has joined #scheme 00:54:16 -!- masm [~masm@bl10-244-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:09 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-55-34.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:21 schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:28 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:40 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.250] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:04:51 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.250] has joined #scheme 01:05:28 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-25-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:21 "Common Lisp has to be backward-compatible with a world of hurt." --me 01:06:39 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-169-139.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:11:24 -!- Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.250] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:21:29 -!- wingo [~wingo@226.Red-81-38-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:52 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:06 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:28:09 jcowan: The `define-macro' in plt is absolutely unrelated to ER macros; and phase separation is something that can apply to any procedural macros, including ER and defmacro. 01:32:00 I'm happy to admit I only half understand all this. 01:32:15 But define-macro in other systems normally bypasses all phase-separation rules. 01:33:23 eli: I'm trying to look for some definitive analysis that indicates the relative safety and expressiveness of ER, SC, and syntax-case macro systems. Do you know of one? Specifically, I'm interested in the types of programs that are wrong but can't be made better with any of the systems. I have this vague notion that they are all roughly capable of achieving the same thing, but ER macros are confusing me. 01:33:46 I can't seem to see how to do things like arbitrarily introduce bindings into a specific syntactic environment in ER macros, rather than just the current and the incoming one. 01:33:57 See above for a specific example of the question. 01:34:21 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:35:16 I'd say that all are equally safe or unsafe, depending on what you do. 01:35:21 ER obviously leans toward unsafety. 01:35:42 jcowan: The issue of phase separation is orthogonal to hygiene; you can have a language with a macro system at any of the four combinations. In plt, as it happens, phase separation is enforced strongly enough that there is no way to have any macro system -- including defmacro -- bypass it. The only thing that the defmacro library is doing is take you sexpr->sexpr function, and wrap it with a proper syntax->syntax f 01:35:43 unction that strips the extra data on entrance, and tries to guess the lexical scope for the results. 01:36:47 Isn't that what ER does, in effect, if you don't call the renamer? 01:41:07 ventonegro [~alex@189.100.198.216] has joined #scheme 01:42:52 jcowan: I can't figure out how to insert an identifier into any scope I want. I can only create a whole new never to be used again identifier it seems. 01:43:12 jcowan: And it's not clear to me that ER macros retain differing syntactic wraps on the incoming form. 01:43:28 arcfide: I have only a vague knowledge of what ER macros actually do, and I'm not aware of anything that does a proper comparison. I also have vague memories of claims that ER and SC are strictly less capable than `syntax-rules' in that there was some kind of a transformation that could not be defined with them. 01:43:45 However, my intuition is that the point that is *more* important than ER or SC or `syntax-case' is that of the data that you use to represent syntax. 01:44:15 Of the systems that are mentioned above, `defmacro' is the only one that dictates a too-simplistic data type (plain sexprs) -- it's too simplistic because there's no place to store the lexical context at. 01:44:27 eli: You're talking about ensure that the wraps are maintained throught the transformation, so you need a structure that has those wraps, right? 01:44:30 As a result, I consider ER bad not so much in itself, but rather in how it encourages people by trying to give them some kind of an illusion that "see? it's just symbols all the way down -- the world is still simple"; but in reality, the world cannot be simple in satisfying that kind of a sentiment. 01:45:01 Yes, you need some data that is more than just lists and symbols. 01:45:21 eli: Yes, of course, I agree. 01:45:25 Also relevant here is my post on this (http://blog.plt-scheme.org/2009/05/explicit-renaming-macros-implicitly.html), where I addressed exactly that kind of a sentiment (one that was expressed by someone on the SC, btw). 01:45:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/qaga42 01:46:12 jcowan: I'm not completely sure, but that seems to me like a good guess. 01:46:16 arcfide: There's no problem with inserting an identifier in ER: you just pass it back as part of the returned value, same as with define-macro. The renamer is used to protect the macro's own free identifiers from being redefined at macro call time. 01:46:57 I would also like to know more about PLT units, which according to arcfide have a run-time representation. What is that representation good for? 01:48:06 They are a different kind of an abstraction for a piece of code; and if you're looking for alternatives to a module system, I don't think that that is it. 01:48:10 jcowan: I'm not worried about inserting an identifier into the scope where the macro is called, I'm thinking about macros that generate macros that need to create and manage differing scopes for their identifiers. 01:48:19 "different" = "different from modules". 01:48:34 "modules" = "\"modules\" as used in plt scheme". 01:49:22 eli: I'm not looking for anything in particular except knowledge. 01:49:52 I understand what arcfide means by a packaging system, and what he means by a syntactic module system. That leaves run-time module systems, which I do not understand. 01:50:21 jcowan: I'm just trying to clarify that they address a pretty different need from modules. 01:50:30 jcowan: As above, say that I have to exit procedures, exit.1 and exit.2, each having different wraps. Say that I now need to introduce another identifier that is visible to code that can see exit.2 but not exit.1. So, say somthing like (with-foo (exit exit) code ...) is a macro generated by another macro that received in code from varying scopes and somehow introduced these two exit forms on generation. 01:51:15 jcowan: When I speak of run-time modules, I speak of the ML crowd. Like Eli says, Units and ML's module approach is quite different than the usual Scheme module system. I think ML calls them functors or something. 01:51:28 Alas, I don't understand ML functors either. 01:51:31 It was a complex discussion I had with someone a while back, so I could have a very fuzzy recollection thereof. 01:51:46 I understand that they serve a different purpose, but what purpose is it? 01:52:29 jcowan: I think that http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/units.html would be a good overview. Specifically, it begins with: "A unit resembles a procedure in that both are first-class values that are used for abstraction. While procedures abstract over values in expressions, units abstract over names in collections of definitions." 01:52:32 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:55 eli: Units don't abstract over syntax transformers, do they? 01:53:56 jcowan: As a *very* rough description, ML functors are kind of like functions over modules -- and units are similar in that you can mix and link them in arbitrary ways at runtime. 01:54:44 *jcowan* nods. 01:54:45 Thanks. 01:57:53 arcfide: They can do that, in some limited way. 01:58:04 I don't remember exactly how though. 01:59:17 I think that "Syntactic Abstraction in Component Interfaces" is the relevant paper. 02:00:29 La mayyitan ma qadirun yatabaqqa sarmadi / Fa idha yaji' al-shudhdhadh fa-l-maut qad yantahi. Abdullah al-Hazred, Al-`Azif -- 02:02:16 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 02:02:31 Has the festival of flames begun? 02:02:59 Units can abstract over syntax? Signatures can -- I don't think units can. 02:03:09 Case-folding heathen! We don't like YOUR type here. 02:03:23 What type is YOUR? 02:03:44 Oh, did you mean `your'? 02:03:45 It's the same type as `your' to you, I suppose. 02:04:05 You confuse me. 02:04:07 (as do you) 02:05:18 So what bike sheds need painting? I brought several buckets of paint of different colours. 02:05:51 devslashnull [~james@dyn-14.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:06:20 I have DID and so do I 02:06:35 The games have begun in Doubleya-Gee-One 02:06:45 No, jcowan. `Did' is the simple past form of the verb `to do'; the past participle is `done'. 02:06:57 infralite [~legato@constant.inople.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:07 r5rs doesn't have filter ?! 02:07:29 OMFG 02:07:46 Quite so, but in this case it means Dissociative Identity Disorder, otherwise known as "multiple personalities" 02:08:31 I understand that 500 Poles were knocked down in the latest storm. 02:08:52 i wonder what they were thinking ... 02:09:05 It'll take forever to finish applying the polish to new ones. 02:09:35 infralite: See SRFI-1. 02:09:45 (Please let me know if there's a better conversation for me to derail somewhere else; I haven't slept much in the past n hours for some value of n that is too large for me to remember.) 02:09:48 chandler: thank you 02:10:24 *jcowan* sends Riastradh eastward in Eden to the land of Nod. 02:11:02 I've been nodding off all day, but I'm trying not to sleep until bedtime. 02:11:09 *jcowan* nods too. 02:11:14 Objective Modula-2, wow. 02:12:02 But no local modules! Heresy. 02:12:34 Actually the amount of emerging consensus in WG1 is impressive. 02:12:46 Consensus? Didn't you folks just start? 02:12:57 Yes, we did. About particulars, I mean. 02:13:20 A week after kickoff, any consensus at all is impressive. 02:13:22 Well, then you need some more contradictory participants! 02:13:30 Well, we have Brian Harvey. 02:13:34 *Riastradh* signs o/` I'm against it! o/`, or would if he remembered the words. 02:13:41 Signs? Something like that. 02:13:46 Didn't know you knew ASL. 02:14:08 I didn't either -- I'm as surprised as you are. 02:14:08 I'm somewhat surprised at that choice. He didn't strike me as being the kind of participant who would work to achieve a constructive compromise on any issue. 02:15:13 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:27 Was that supposed to be some kind of desirable attribute, chandler? This is, after all, the Scheme standardization process. 02:15:53 My view (not attributable to the SC) is that it's better to have some people inside the tent and pissing out, than outside the tent and pissing in. 02:15:56 foof`` [~user@FL1-125-198-249-114.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 02:16:08 What ho, it is foof('s) double! 02:16:21 Or is it his triple? Wouldn't foof` be his double? 02:16:42 foof' = "foof prime", foof'' = "foof double" 02:16:50 Riastradh: I assumed that it was desirable to the people who set the parameters for the process, but that might be an unwarranted assumption. 02:17:22 In fact, everyone who applied was admitted. Most (as I believe) without significant debate. 02:18:03 So how come there's no month of February at ? 02:18:23 Riastradh, February had to be cut due to budget issues 02:18:39 Ah. Namely, the issue that there is no budget? 02:18:40 The Scheme groups have skipped straight ahead to March 02:18:48 http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg1 02:18:52 http://groups.google.com/group/scheme-reports-wg2 02:19:06 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:19:17 Is there an NNTP interface, by any chance? 02:19:25 I'm still trying to decide if I should regret not having applied. 02:19:41 chandler: I wish you would have. 02:19:54 -!- foof` [~user@FL1-125-198-249-114.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:20:03 -!- ventonegro [~alex@189.100.198.216] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 02:20:11 I was actually hoping both you and Riastradh applied. 02:20:16 I'll regret that for you, chandler -- I think that I vascillated more than you did, declining and then accepting and then redeclining more than one invitation to join the kerfuffle. 02:20:28 davazp` [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:31 -!- davazp` [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:37 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Quit: rebooting] 02:20:46 Also, I ocillated, but now I have no ocelots left. 02:21:01 Riastradh: I have some extras in the trunk. 02:21:30 How noble, that you would give another man your dinner so that he may be without hunger 02:21:47 chandler: Late registrations are being considered, if you are reconsidering. 02:21:51 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 02:21:52 Riastradh: But did you flagellate? 02:22:06 chandler, is that some sort of SML joke? 02:22:09 Riastradh: There is not. NNTP reader interfaces are too expensive for even Google to maintain. 02:22:30 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:22:38 I hope, however, that Data Liberation will soon liberate Google Groups. 02:23:43 jcowan: I'll allow myself a day to consider that offer. I'm still concerned about my existing time commitments, but do strongly desire to participate. 02:23:57 What aspect of the NNTP protocol (as opposed to existing server software) makes it expensive? 02:24:03 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-24-130-33-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:04 chandler: I need you to be my proxy for ideas. 02:24:24 How much will you bribe him^W^Wcontribute to his campaign, Quadrescence? 02:24:48 chandler: Its inherent statefulness. IMAP and POP are also stateful protocols, but people tend to connect, download, and go away. Not so with many NTTP readers. 02:24:52 I'm no-one's proxy but my own. If you have ideas, you are welcome to try to convince me or anyone else of their goodness. 02:25:06 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.33.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:24 *jcowan* notes for the record that Quadrescence is a WG member. 02:25:50 nutmegmagi [~swalters@pool-71-101-51-208.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:53 Oh, I didn't know that. 02:25:55 jcowan, IMAP? No: it is one of the ten commandments of the IMAP not to disconnect and reconnect needlessly. 02:25:56 Which WG? 02:25:57 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@pool-71-101-51-208.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 02:26:31 Both, I believe. There are only a few WG2 members who are not also WG1 members. 02:27:01 `8. Thou shalt not fear to open multiple IMAP sessions to the server; but thou shalt use this technique with wisdom. For verily it is true; if thou [dost] desire to monitor continuously five mailboxes for new mail, it is better to have five IMAP sessions continuously open on the mailboxes....and it is truly wretched to open and close five sessions to do a STATUS or SELECT on a periodic basis.' 02:27:37 jcowan: yes, both 02:27:45 How much state is accumulated per NNTP client connection? Is it on the order of a few kilobytes, a few dozen kilobytes, a few gross kilobytes, or megabytes? 02:28:10 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-229.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:28:37 TR2N` [email@89-180-194-94.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 02:30:26 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:30:28 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-194-94.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:33:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:51 Yow! 02:34:15 The discussion began on Monday; already there are a hundred and fifty messages on the Thing 1 list. 02:35:10 Riastradh: Yeah, I sort of complained about that. 02:36:36 chandler: I don't know. However, I don't believe anyone has written an explicit-state NNTP reader-mode server, either. 02:37:14 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.33.145] has joined #scheme 02:37:26 You can probably ignore most messages that arcfide replies to, because he is doing a heroic job of combating drivel. 02:42:19 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:43:22 I really wish forums were used instead of newsgroups 02:45:22 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:17 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 02:46:21 Forums? 02:46:45 -!- foof`` is now known as foof 02:47:08 *foof* brushes off the ugly `s 02:47:22 Isn't the plural fora? 02:47:32 Yes, that's why I was confused about what Quadrescence was talking about. 02:47:53 that is but one trivium 02:48:04 Forums is also correct. 02:48:19 Don't pester me with linguistic triviums, copumpkin. 02:48:40 lol 02:48:41 -!- snikeris [~user@96.245.129.111] has left #scheme 02:48:59 one phenomena, two phenomenons (I've seen people o that) 02:49:14 *Riastradh* twitch. 02:49:26 same with criterion, sadly 02:49:33 datums 02:52:16 I think a lot of people were chomping at the bit to say what they wanted on the lists. Things should settle down soon. 02:52:59 And then come back in waves as controversial issues are brought up. 02:53:13 google wave? 02:53:42 I'm kind of baffled that call/cc is being brought into question though. 02:54:02 zk [~zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 02:54:08 foof: Can you provide a direct link to that questioning in the archives? 02:54:09 Hey guys, I have some implementationly questions :) 02:54:17 regarding 32-64bit floating point numbers. 02:54:23 I'm too lazy to search through the archives myself. 02:54:28 zk: Don't ask to ask, just ask. 02:54:33 The typical way that these are handled, at least in the texts I have read and code I've studied, 02:54:42 is with a tagged pointer. 02:54:49 I was wondering if it'd be perhaps worth investigating Minifloats? 02:55:03 so, that for small flonums, I could have them direct - rather than tagged/indirect. 02:55:12 say, have a 24bit flonum in a 32bit tagged word. 02:55:14 foof: yes, please add an alias for call-with-current-continuation (in ze Scheme Prelude/WG1/Small/ hing 1) 02:55:31 and only when the 24bits overflows - tag/indirect. 02:55:54 I figure though, ultimately, this would offer zero speed improvement, only memory. 02:56:03 probably inflict a performance cost? 02:56:04 Tagging is a significant speed overhead. 02:56:16 since the processor doesn't support 24bit flonums? 02:56:36 This is tickling a memory of a Lisp or Scheme which did in fact use limited-precision floats with tagging, but I have no idea what I'm thinking of. 02:57:03 :) I want to avoid tag-indirect stuff as much as possible - at least for simple things, like a 'small' fixnum/flonum, #t, #f, '() 02:57:13 *zk* nods 02:57:14 :) 02:57:19 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:22 I guess the best way to find out would be to test and tinker, hey? 02:57:37 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 02:58:45 You would take bits from the significand for the tag, and mask them out before and after float arithmetic. You'd wind up with a 29- or 30-bit float using this approach. 03:00:07 aye - unless you used a purely-smaller flonum approach 03:00:08 say, 24bits. 03:00:13 that way, you could just shift. 03:00:27 same for say, 30bits. 03:00:42 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:48 but would it actually offer a speedboost? 03:01:05 That, zk, is a question for you to answer, by experiment. 03:01:05 I figure it oculd. 03:01:06 :) 03:01:11 Heya Riastradh ! 03:01:17 Doubtful, since your processor more than likely doesn't support short floats. 03:01:41 What if `30' was actually a euphemism for `61', chandler? 03:02:26 *zk* ponders 03:02:38 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:42 I wonder hwo expensive it'd be to convert 31bit flonum to 32bit flonum and back 03:02:43 :) 03:02:45 or 30bit 03:02:56 *zk* ponders more 03:03:00 *zk* gets ready to tinker 03:03:49 Riastradh: I'm not sure what you're asking, but given the parameters of zk's questions, I assumed that the goal was to use 32-bit words. 03:05:03 Do you recall which Lisp or Scheme I'm thinking of that provided unboxed short floats with a reduced significand? 03:05:29 zk: chibi-scheme has immediate floats as a compile-time option 03:05:35 I think that foof discussed it for Chibi Scheme. 03:05:59 It seems that LispWorks does this. 03:06:33 immediate floats are available as a compile-time option in Chibi, but I strongly discourage anyone from using them. 03:06:39 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 03:07:02 jcowan: On 64-bit machines the immediate floats use 32 bits. 03:07:03 CLISP seems to also have a distinct short float type, in this case of 25 total bits. 03:07:41 jcowan: whyfore? 03:07:43 too slow? 03:08:00 `Whyfore'? 03:08:04 No, because just truncating what you get back from the FPP is a recipe for losing all numerical significance. 03:08:07 foof: Good point. 03:08:08 That's a curious construction... 03:08:11 zk: Don't you mean "wherefore"? 03:08:52 jcowan, does Chibi truncate results, or merely use immediate floats when the results need no more than the lesser precision? 03:09:03 Never mind the whys and wherefores 03:09:17 It's not about precision, Riastradh, but about accuracy. 03:09:33 `Whyfore' is an indication to the reader to watch out for low-flying questions aimed in their general direction. 03:09:35 Riastradh: Floats in chibi are either all immediate or none. 03:09:48 when it came to accuracy - you'd automatically use the indirect/tagged "True flonums" (32/64bit) 03:09:59 but if you can stay accurate within X bits, you might as well use the less bits? 03:10:07 unless the conversion to/from that representation slows down everything too much9~/ 03:10:08 No, zk, you'd use integral ratios or continued fractions if you really want accuracy. 03:10:22 (the choice, of course, depending on whether your numbers are rational or not) 03:10:35 jcowan: If you want you can file a bug report and I'll round the immediate floats instead of truncating them, though I wouldn't make it a high priority. 03:11:19 so, ultimately, smaller-immediate-flonums bad idea? 03:11:46 jcowan, let me be more precise then. I meant to ask whether Chibi's immediate floats merely constitute a representation hack, to reduce the number of bits occupied by a certain subset of flonums, or actually involve different arithmetic. 03:11:53 s/precise then/precise, then/1 03:12:07 The former, AFAIK. But the man himself is here to answer all your questions. 03:12:26 Come, jcowan. That's absurd. What you suggest is much too obvious. 03:12:38 zk: Ultimately, immediate floats are implemented in several CL implementations, and implemented poorly in 32-bit chibi-scheme. 03:12:47 Love can level ranks, and therefore.... 03:13:34 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:38 "Several"? What CLs besides CLISP (which does all FP in software)? 03:13:39 -!- arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-226-58.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:39 ...and therefore love is the level set of a differentiable map of maximum rank? Neat -- then love is a nice, differentiable imbedded manifold. 03:13:55 arcfide [arcfide@adsl-99-50-226-58.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:14:08 I wonder whether there is a Riemann metric on its ambient space, inducing a Riemann metric on love itself? 03:14:25 Stupendous is your brain, Riastradh. 03:14:35 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #scheme 03:14:40 jcowan: LispWorks purports to have an immediate SHORT-FLOAT type on 32-bit word-size platforms, though I have no idea how it's implemented. 03:14:49 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #scheme 03:15:23 Ah. I know nothing about LispWorks. 03:15:48 All other freeware Lisps, at least, have only single and double floats underlyingly. 03:15:53 I believe that all 64-bit implementations provide immediate single floats, too. 03:16:02 No, jcowan, `stupendous' is not the right word at this hour in this state; I think you want `fied' rather than `dous'. 03:16:37 jcowan: That's not quite true; CMCUL at least at one time also supported 128-bit long floats. 03:16:43 CMUCL, even. 03:16:53 Funny; my test didn't report it. 03:17:00 Riastradh: Or `ified' instead of `ous'? 03:17:17 It might have been removed, or never officially released. 03:17:47 *jcowan* nods. 03:18:22 My CMUCL 19F reports "s is f", "f is not d", "d is l", "e is s", "e is f", "e is not d", "e is not l". 03:19:05 I've never used Common Lisp; am I missing out? 03:19:18 No, foof. My mind is well ousified now, and will remain so until it restock on sleep. 03:19:35 jcowan: Oh. LONG-FLOAT is DOUBLE-FLOAT, but DOUBLE-DOUBLE-FLOAT is the type I was thinking of. 03:19:45 (Curious how close the `s' key is to `u' these days.) 03:20:04 -!- bweaver [~user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:20:04 bweaver` [~user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:30 Ah. 03:20:32 foof: how does chibi normally implement floats? 03:20:38 tagged indirect? 03:20:41 Helium. 03:20:42 nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:44 Heap allocated doubles. 03:20:52 All of ABCL, CCL, CMUCL, ECL, and SBCL report the same thing. 03:21:33 Only Clisp reports "s is not f", "f is not d", "d is not l", "e is not s", "e is f", "e is not d", "e is not l". 03:21:55 dtc indicates that Scieneer has 80-bit LONG-FLOATs on x86. 03:22:16 -!- nutmegmagi [~swalters@static-72-91-30-20.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 03:22:23 *arcfide* finally finishes going through all the WG email. 03:22:44 sbcl scares me 03:23:00 In what way? 03:23:02 chandler: extended precision? 03:25:40 The x87 uses 80-bit registers with a 64-bit significand. Most software does not take advantage of this extended precision. 03:28:09 I really, really hate #!foo. 03:28:13 It's just so damn ugly. 03:29:05 For that matter I hate #t and #f, they're too hard to tell apart. We should switch to #true and #false. 03:29:20 How about just TRUE and FALSE? 03:29:31 I find #'foo & friends to be just as ugly, but I'll probably be hanged at the stake for saying that. (I'm not mixing my metaphors; I'm just violating phase separation!) 03:29:33 Because those are symbols. 03:29:46 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:30:26 Well, what's the purpose of #t and #f? 03:31:03 Literal syntax for the boolean objects. 03:31:12 Why is literal syntax needed for them? 03:32:26 To be able to `read' and `write' them and use them in quoted constructs. The same reason we need literal syntax for numbers, characters, strings etc. 03:32:44 Oh, who needs READ and WRITE? We can all just use ASN.1. 03:35:51 My, isn't it dark outside? One would think that getting some sleep now would be a good idea. 03:36:24 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 03:36:25 I don't know where you get those ideas in that head of yours, chandler, but they are unremittingly outrageous. 03:37:17 Almost as outrageous as mine. 03:37:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:38:15 -!- bweaver` is now known as bweaver 03:40:41 jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-pszwxifzufhdtxma] has joined #scheme 03:44:40 anyone know if any of the slime-ish plugins for vim support scheme, especially plt? 03:44:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:09 -!- bweaver [~user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:46:15 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:20 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 03:48:23 infralite: the actual page is down at the moment (at least here), but it's linked from here: http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/4495/a-review-of-scheme-modes-in-emacs 03:49:00 it's not what you asked, but it might help. 03:49:56 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:08 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: schemer999] 03:50:47 gwynddyllyd: thank you 03:51:26 gwynddyllyd: i might actually have to end up using emacs with viper mode :/ it's odd that i can't find any decent editor for scheme 03:51:38 er 03:51:44 s/editor/vim plugin/ 03:52:15 infralite: i started with scheme recently, and have been using vim so far, with an external indentation plugin. 03:52:40 there's no integration with the REPL, though. 03:54:36 infralite: if vim's your thing then http://evalwhen.com/scmindent/index.html 03:55:19 *cky* wonders if it's possible to port paredit to vim. :-P 03:55:58 how hard could it be? 03:56:10 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 03:58:25 gwynddyllyd: do the parentheses match? 03:58:44 gwynddyllyd: i.e. if i put a bracket at the beginning will it end it with a bracket too even if i put a paren? 03:59:07 -!- jengle [~9598170a@gateway/web/freenode/x-pszwxifzufhdtxma] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:00:17 infralite: it just handles indentation and nothing else. i think what you need is paredit.el in emacs for that. 04:01:14 if you do manage to make emacs modal without all the machinery of viper mode let me know. :) 04:02:12 i have been using ergoemacs for some days and can't feel comfortable as i do in vim. maybe i should mix modal-mode.el with ergoemacs... 04:05:30 gwynddyllyd: there are some lisp vim extensions 04:05:34 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:05:36 like limp 04:12:18 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:13:00 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.33.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:13:02 infralite: just checked it... seems promising. will try it. 04:13:20 i* will try it. 04:16:36 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #scheme 04:17:25 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-88-113.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:18:40 Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-135.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 04:19:00 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 04:19:25 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: *sleep*] 04:24:57 -!- devslashnull [~james@dyn-14.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:42 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:54 -!- offby1 is now known as rudybot 04:38:05 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:41:04 -!- rudybot is now known as offby1 04:41:42 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 04:43:33 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:15 *eli* mumbles something about the Nth law of irc robots, and the above violation 04:45:23 er? 04:45:51 did I do something? 04:46:32 You exchanged identities with a bot. 04:46:39 sure 04:46:45 I gave it back, though 04:46:54 How can you be sure now that what looks real is real? 04:47:01 never was sure of that 04:47:05 hadda change its password, and that seemed the easiest way to do it 04:47:39 rudybot: eval 7 04:47:42 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:47:42 eli: ; Value: 7 04:47:53 At least this works... 04:48:08 rudybot: init scheme 04:48:09 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:48:52 rudybot: init scheme/base 04:48:52 eli: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 04:48:55 rudybot: init scheme 04:48:58 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:49:00 rudybot: init scheme/base 04:49:01 eli: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 04:49:11 eli: you'll catch him off guard 04:49:14 Perhaps you have some uncompiled files or something, that's pretty slow. 04:49:21 I ought to allow "init javascript" 04:49:29 eli: it's been very slow, yes 04:49:32 I never understood it 04:50:00 Are you sure that everything is compiled? 04:50:19 nope 04:50:32 I _think_ I'm using a binary distro, though. 04:51:32 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 04:51:39 schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:51:57 I'm using an Ubuntu package :-| 04:52:57 The ubuntu one or ours? 04:54:21 hmm 04:54:23 not sure, actually 04:54:42 Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers 04:54:46 suggests it's the Ubuntu one 04:55:46 rudybot: eval (version) 04:55:47 eli: ; Value: "4.1.5" 04:55:55 Bah. 04:56:07 rudybot: eval (banner) 04:56:13 wow, slow indeed 04:56:15 offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:56:15 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.5 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 04:58:19 -!- acon [~acon@81-231-127-43-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: acon] 05:04:09 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:24 ebzzry [~ebzzry@124.217.78.22] has joined #scheme 05:06:14 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:07:34 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 05:19:14 sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has joined #scheme 05:20:18 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@124.217.78.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:06 ebzzry [~ebzzry@115.147.103.242] has joined #scheme 05:22:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 05:30:04 What is the most efficient way to shorten/slice a list, taking only the left part of the slice? 05:30:56 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:31:31 rudybot: doc take 05:32:07 offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/pairs.html#(def._((lib._scheme%2Flist..ss)._take)) 05:32:11 *whew* 05:32:20 ebzzry: there's also "take-right". 05:32:28 offby1: Sweet. Thanks. 05:32:55 *ebzzry* wonders if there's something like that in CL 05:33:00 sure 05:33:06 CL has everything, plus a bit more 05:33:30 offby1: Do you know the equivalent of take in CL? 05:35:22 not offhand,no 05:36:34 offby1: Hmm, OK 05:50:09 jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:50:11 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:37 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:23 acon [~acon@81-231-127-43-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 05:54:28 ebzzry, looks like susbeq 05:54:40 subseq 05:54:49 MichaelRaskin: Yeah, sorry my bad. 05:55:37 MichaelRaskin: I was looking for something built-in like `take', but since subseq has methods for lists, it works fine. 05:56:00 subseq seems built-in 05:56:13 MichaelRaskin: It's built-in. 05:56:24 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: schemer999] 05:57:32 MichaelRaskin: Since lists and strings are subtypes of sequences, subseq works: (defun take (s n) (subseq s 0 n)). Unlike substring in Scheme, that works only for stringy types. But that's OK. 05:59:35 About missing features in CL: there are many. CL standard doesn't specify any way to require type-checking with type inference, or to check strings for Unicode Canonical Equivalence 05:59:38 arcfide: ping 05:59:56 foof: Yes? 06:02:41 "3Error! 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[~yosafbrid@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:22:43 *wingo* reads about r6rs exceptions; reminded of the stupidity of r6rs module versions 21:28:59 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:09 schmir [~schmir@p54A93908.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:37:21 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:29 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has left #scheme 21:38:53 -!- Belaf [~campedel@194.209.131.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:34 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:40:48 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-236-233-23.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:01 -!- wingo [~wingo@213.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:50 daedra pasted "snoc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94790 21:45:17 blistis there a less hackish way of returning (a) ? 21:45:44 I meant to say "is there a less.." 21:46:18 I'm currently doing (cons a (quote ())) which seems kind of dirty 21:46:34 Well, you just checked that lat is null... 21:46:44 You could cons a onto lat :) 21:46:59 mmyea 21:47:16 In real code you'd see '() instead of (quote ()) in full 21:47:25 Or (list a) 21:47:33 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DC3AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:37 or `(,a) 21:47:52 heh, yeah 21:47:59 lol 21:49:28 rudybot: eval (append (append '() 'a) '()) 21:49:28 zbigniew: error: append: expected argument of type ; given a 21:50:07 rudybot: eval (append '() 'a) 21:50:08 zbigniew: ; Value: a 21:50:25 rudybot: eval (cons (append '() 'a) '()) 21:50:25 zbigniew: ; Value: (a) 21:53:34 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5BECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:35 hosh [~hosh@c-24-99-42-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:07:48 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:16:34 -!- infralite [~legato@constant.inople.net] 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[~schemer99@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: schemer999] 22:36:39 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #scheme 22:43:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-167-18.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:46:30 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A93908.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:47:58 arcfide [arcfide@140-182-224-53.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:49:32 jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has joined #scheme 22:50:13 ho hum, another day, another centithread 22:50:51 Mikaeel_Mohamed [Mohamdu@2002:8161:f189:b:e1d2:1127:46bc:da7b] has joined #scheme 22:51:45 jcowan: I'm amazed at the WG traffic. 22:52:11 Irrational (and formerly pent-up) exuberance. 22:53:32 jcowan: I hope I'm not being too talkative. 22:54:06 Not at all. 22:54:21 You are doing a valuable service in the "Wake up, dummy" dept. of customer service. 22:54:22 jcowan: I know my initial module stuff was a little...long. 22:55:17 On the plus side, at least I showed you some code. ;-) 22:55:31 Quite so. 22:55:46 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:55:56 jcowan: So, can I brag yet? :-P 22:56:13 Sure. 22:57:30 Too bad it looks like Git is going to win. :-P 22:57:37 Ah well. 22:57:37 Such is life. 22:57:59 *jcowan* intones "Sony Betamax" while dousing #scheme with a thurible. 22:58:51 brag? win? gee, arcifide what happend to teamplay? 22:59:29 mejja: hahahah! This is Scheme, either dominate or go home. 22:59:31 :-) 23:00:00 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ok] 23:00:10 Whoops. 23:00:23 Mejja! I didn't mean it! 23:00:23 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.137] has joined #scheme 23:00:29 Easy to say that now. 23:00:38 Heheh. 23:02:10 Anyhow, I'd like to ask you to review my Fiendish Plan for Thing One. 23:02:34 Have you mentioned it in one of the emails? 23:02:52 Is this regarding case-sensitivity? 23:03:16 jcowan: Also, what do you think about setting up an IRC channel #scheme-working-groups or some such? 23:04:50 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:05:01 No, it's a general Fiendish Plan, the outcome of all that yattering I did on r6rs-discuss. 23:05:06 http://tinyurl.com/thing-one 23:05:37 Aaaah..... 23:05:46 Alright, I'll try to remember to take a look at it. 23:05:47 -!- likebike [~900fffe3@gateway/web/freenode/x-whyyanwhaazjnocf] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:47 -!- FiveLemon [~945701ac@gateway/web/freenode/x-wlvlblogtrsyeclk] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:47 -!- leppie|work [~52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-txjwfsotcnlqdoii] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:06:20 likebike [~900fffe3@gateway/web/freenode/x-whyyanwhaazjnocf] has joined #scheme 23:06:20 FiveLemon [~945701ac@gateway/web/freenode/x-wlvlblogtrsyeclk] has joined #scheme 23:06:20 leppie|work [~52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-txjwfsotcnlqdoii] has joined #scheme 23:07:27 There's a lot of ideas in there, so please send me emails about it. 23:07:44 jcowan: I'll probably try to encode my own thoughts on the Wiki. 23:07:59 I'll see if I can reference yours and give you a diff and comments. 23:08:06 It's a good idea for me to set out some thoughts. 23:08:18 I'm going to try to make sure I keep up with correspondence first though. :-) 23:08:22 *jcowan* nods. 23:08:31 I'm already setting up more auto-filters in Opera. 23:08:37 Just for the Working Groups. 23:08:59 I can't believe someone suggested a Forum..... 23:09:03 *jcowan* snorts. 23:09:22 Forums are for people who can't be trusted to use a wiki. 23:09:36 And don't know how to use their email clients. 23:09:43 Forums are also the worst discussion format I know of. Topics are much easier to keep track of with a threaded mail client. 23:10:07 That's why they are so popular. Like Youtube comments. 23:10:20 And smart filters a la Opera makes going to a forum....scary. 23:10:22 Hahah. 23:10:32 Long live Web 2.0. 23:10:45 All power to the lumpen proletariat! 23:11:43 I spent so much time preparing stuff for Thing One that the SC was kind of shocked that I wanted to chair WG2. 23:12:48 Hahaha. 23:15:15 -!- FiveLemon [~945701ac@gateway/web/freenode/x-wlvlblogtrsyeclk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:19:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:31 -!- leppie|work [~52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-txjwfsotcnlqdoii] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:14 -!- Summermute [~Summermut@c-68-55-150-29.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 23:22:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.137] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:24:51 Well, I can be more neutral about Thing Two, which a proper chair should be. 23:24:59 I'm going to be pushing my own agenda more in WG1. 23:25:07 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.137] has joined #scheme 23:27:44 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 23:29:50 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.137] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:02 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.137] has joined #scheme 23:33:14 arcfide: I think if you use INCLUDE instead of FILE in the packaging format, it becomes isomorphic to the syntactic modules (as the rest is just documentation props that syntactic modules could ahve but typically don't need). 23:33:24 -!- arcfide [arcfide@140-182-224-53.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 23:33:27 So I'm not sure why either T1 or T12 should have both. 23:33:29 Arrgh. 23:34:23 arcfide [arcfide@140-182-224-53.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 23:36:29 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5BECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:28 *elly* pushes jcowan's agenda 23:41:01 Thanks, elly. Is that on general principles, or because you have actually read it? 23:41:37 I just like pushing agendas 23:42:00 Oh. By all means, then. 23:43:55 jcowan: Could you explain a bit more what you mean by you not seeing the difference in the modules? 23:45:16 FiveLemon [~945701ac@gateway/web/freenode/x-swcjlrmniucwihqe] has joined #scheme 23:48:42 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:49 -!- arcfide [arcfide@140-182-224-53.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 23:50:04 -!- mmc [~mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:53 -!- masm [~masm@bl10-244-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53:57 devslashnull [~nope@dyn-14.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:54:26 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:56:29 IOW, I'm not sure why you want to have separated syntactic and packaging systems. 23:56:50 A syntactic system, it seems to me, does it all, if you are allowed to annotate the module declaration with the properties wanted for packaging. 23:56:58 And if you allow INCLUDE as syntax. 23:57:34 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:52 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme