00:04:26 devslashnull [n=nope@202.3.37.228] has joined #scheme 00:15:41 robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has joined #scheme 00:17:25 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:48 can anyone recommend a resource that introduces tracing compilers nicely? 00:21:09 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:59 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:22:23 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-48.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:33:43 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-48.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:35:44 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 00:36:40 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:39 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.125.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:51 MononcQc [n=Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:49:06 -!- jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:42 The writings of Andreas Gal? You want to write a JITter? 00:54:36 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:22 -!- MononcQc [n=Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has left #scheme 01:00:27 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit ["leaving"] 01:04:34 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:07:02 schmir [n=schmir@p54A900AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:07:04 SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 01:11:16 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-48.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:13:02 -!- rgrau_ [n=user@14.Red-193-152-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:18 /msg ChanServ INVITE #plt-schem 01:18:22 /msg ChanServ INVITE #plt-scheme 01:18:32 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:51 -!- robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has quit [] 01:18:53 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A900AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:05 robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has joined #scheme 01:19:30 /msg robby whoops 01:20:10 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:20:34 -!- robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has left #scheme 01:22:12 robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has joined #scheme 01:22:16 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:28 Cute quote that display TCO cluelessness, from 1983. /"...but will RISC run LISP??" (a feasability study)/ 01:23:47 TCO? 01:25:22 "Textbook lisp programs tend to be highly recursive functions such as factorials or linear list traversals. Such functions would generate long, monotonic rises and falls in the stack height..." 01:25:30 TCO = tail-call optimization 01:26:17 ahh, I see 01:26:23 ref - http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1983/CSD-83-122.pdf 01:26:43 cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 01:27:18 -!- cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:31 cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:23 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:34 mornfall [n=mornfall@147.251.45.128] has joined #scheme 01:28:51 also re "tracing compilers" above - http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~tsa/theses/borys_bradel.pdf looks like a good simple survery. There's also at least one paper on it on readscheme.org. 01:29:32 Evening all, Is there a plt-specific help channel? 01:29:37 Not sure what a survery might be, but by golly it's good n simple. 01:30:32 cmerck: Use this channel. 01:30:42 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 01:30:44 lol 01:30:44 :) 01:30:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:31:03 TCO == Total Cost of Oatmeal 01:31:04 Daemmerung: Tracing compilers as in, showing kinds of ocmpilers around or some compiler technique? 01:31:35 :D Just bound my home-made R5RS book! :D 01:32:37 elderK: you'd have to ask peter_12 what he meant. I assumed he meant program tracing, a form of control-flow analysis that uses runtime profiling. 01:32:47 I would like to know how to get more useful context information on errors. 01:32:58 Use -l errortrace 01:33:06 Aye, Daemmerung - I figure that too. Profiler-guided compilation, or something :) 01:33:11 Or run your program in drscheme, oink 01:33:44 cmerck: more useful than what? How are you running your code now? 01:34:46 ok, running in drscheme shows the error trace, but running the same code with mzscheme or mzscheme -l errortrace does not. 01:34:58 Daemmerung: oink? 01:36:03 drscheme tends to bog down when debugging biggish programs, in my experience. For small stuff it's fine. 01:36:25 Maybe it just can't deal with my ghastly code. 01:36:39 What's the general consensus on PLT/MzScheme anyway? 01:36:55 Is it considered good or bad? Are other interpreters considered better? 01:36:58 :) Whats the deal :) 01:37:06 dangerous question there elderK 01:37:20 :P Holy war material, cmerck? 01:37:22 It is bad, bad, hopelessly bad, which is why I use it. I live for danger. 01:37:28 cmerck: How are you running it *exactly*? 01:37:44 "mzscheme mycode.ss -l errortrace" 01:37:44 elderK: It's the best one, of course. 01:38:01 eli, even compared to things like Chicken or Gauche? 01:38:03 cmerck: Use "mzscheme -l errortrace -t mycode.ss" 01:38:05 or Gambit? 01:38:17 elderK: Of course -- it is much better than all of them combined. 01:38:24 Whyfore? 01:38:26 eli, works like magic. thanks. 01:38:31 And this is my completely subjective undisputable opinion. 01:38:32 Because. 01:38:44 Becauuuseeee? 01:38:58 Because of the wonderful things he daws! 01:39:20 lol 01:39:22 elderK: If you're really serious, then just look around a bit -- that would be much more helpful than comparing feature lists. 01:39:42 I hear you eli - so far I've simply used the implementation that offers what I need. 01:40:10 elderK: (BTW, in case you don't know, I'm on the PLT team, so I'm not one to answer such questions...) 01:40:17 elderK: What are your needs? 01:40:57 :) Runs everywhere under the sun! 01:41:13 Fast, interfaces easily with Assembly/C code. 01:41:36 What do you mean by "interfaces assembly"? 01:41:43 FFI. 01:41:48 wingo [n=wingo@155.Red-83-35-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:52 Chicken's FFI is pretty nice. 01:41:54 (That's different.) 01:41:56 Show me a first-class Scheme without FFI. 01:42:29 elderK: In any case, PLT has a *very* good FFI (but I'm even more biased here, since I did most of it), 01:42:33 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:42:46 -!- robby [n=robby@taitung.ece.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:48 btw, eli, about the "that's different." ? 01:43:11 elderK: And as for speed, it used to be not-really-fast, but has been making big steps for a number of years and I think that it gives you plenty of speed for most practical purposes. 01:43:13 When I think of interfacing Scheme with Assembly - I think of assembling the assembly, linking the .o with the compiled scheme, somehow? 01:43:24 elderK: I won't describe PLT's FFI because I don't want eli to get a swelled head. It's one of the main forces that keeps me with PLT as opposed to, say, Gambit. 01:43:29 robby [n=rbf@c-68-51-72-31.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:39 elderK: (Assembly can mean anything.) 01:43:44 *eli* blushes 01:43:49 Oh, right. :) 01:43:56 ^_^ My bad. 01:44:20 Daemmerung: But seriously, that's exactly why I really wanted to have a good ffi -- it's an open door to the outside world. 01:44:39 A system without FFI is worthless to me. 01:44:58 -!- robby [n=rbf@c-68-51-72-31.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:00 This is a pretty bad question probably - but is PLT professionally funded? 01:45:02 or is it entirely open? 01:45:10 "open"? 01:45:22 like, built by volunteers :) 01:45:29 Daemmerung: Well, we did have an FFI before (and still do), it had two options -- write C code, or write C code via gambit-like macros. 01:45:50 elderK: It's academically funded, and completely open. 01:45:57 rudybot: eval (banner) 01:45:58 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:45:58 eli: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.2.2 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 01:46:23 elderK: In fact, that "PLT Scheme Inc." is a name for a company that was made to ensure that it stays open. 01:46:41 Kind of like the Free Software Foundation? 01:46:57 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:57 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:07 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:47:09 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:47:50 elderK: Not really -- since it is funded by academic money, there's always a chance of a university trying to take over it. (Universities have strange rules about stuff done under their roofs.) 01:48:07 Ah, I didn't think of that :) 01:48:07 So the Inc thing was made when PLT moved out of Rice and into several schools. 01:48:24 Well, I'm comfortable with that :D 01:49:37 As for speed, I can tell you more if you tell me the kind of applications that you intend to write. 01:49:48 robby [n=eli@c-24-61-14-53.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:53 Is it SOP that if two .scm's load each other an `infinite' loop ensues? 01:50:16 (SOP?) 01:50:27 std op proc 01:50:28 bytecolor: Yes. Don't do that. 01:50:34 heh 01:50:56 trying to figure out how to chop my code up into a few modules 01:51:07 bytecolor: It would be good to take "that" as meaning "use `load'". 01:51:14 no header guards eh? ;) 01:51:15 Use your Scheme's module system. 01:51:49 bytecolor: `load' is not #include. 01:51:56 Nested modules, modules not at toplevel (i.e. local modules) or mutually recursive modules are not supported. ... from the docs 01:52:00 -!- robby [n=eli@c-24-61-14-53.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:36 From whose docs? 01:52:57 chicken 01:53:23 well I just got started on the module system so I'm probably just doing something wrong, as usual 01:53:40 Plenty of chicken users here, but I ain't one of them. Perhaps somebody else will opine. I should get back to work. 01:54:08 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:52 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:56:20 Whoa -- there are several plters and zero chickeners... That's a new one. 01:56:58 heh 01:57:06 I'm a chickener! 01:57:22 Maybe they're all in their chicken-shtetl over in #chicken 01:57:42 Yes, but you're the one asking the question. 01:57:52 roost? 01:58:03 :) That was my thought exactly. 01:58:38 never heard of a chicken shelter... for homeless chickens? ;) 02:02:24 bytecolor: google "shtetl". 02:08:35 I should search the chicken list, I'm sure some poor soul has come across this 02:09:09 bytecolor: (It was a joke.) 02:10:05 eli: oh I know ;) I found shtetl on the interweb ;) 02:11:47 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:14:21 hrm, isn't there some common func to control what get's loaded? load only when compiling, only when interactive, etc.? 02:14:43 eval-when? 02:22:06 _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 02:23:01 -!- cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:14 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:26:07 -!- xwl_` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:41 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:41 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:17 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:57:14 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 03:01:27 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:06:35 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- nickgibbon [n=nring@210.8.201.244] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:35 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- Armageddon00 [n=danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:36 -!- jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 :) anyone here a fan of graphviz? 03:06:53 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- ecloud [n=rutledge@ip72-208-148-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:53 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:07:54 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 ecloud [n=rutledge@ip72-208-148-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:07:54 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 nickgibbon [n=nring@210.8.201.244] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 Armageddon00 [n=danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 03:12:50 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-015.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:13:08 Depends on the definition of a "fan". 03:16:27 <_Pb> a fan is one of those electric things with the twirly things 03:30:10 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 03:30:21 elderK: I used it once to visualize the AST I was working on 03:31:54 So far, I'm finding pen'n'paper more constructive. 03:31:55 :P 03:31:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:33:14 not as pretty though => http://tinyurl.com/create.php 03:33:28 http://tinyurl.com/yb94vwe 03:33:40 try *that* one instead ;) 03:34:12 AST? 03:34:23 abstract syntax tree 03:34:24 aye 03:34:42 I was going to make a similar thing to help visualize my parser ideas. 03:34:57 but, creating a node in graphviz, with artibtrary text is somewhat annoying 03:35:17 ie: it'd be neat if the HTML labels could change background color and the like of text, midstream. 03:35:40 it was all automated, once I had the ast in memory, I just used a visitor on it and wrote the graphviz file 03:35:51 aye. 03:36:03 GraphViz really takes off when the output is generated :) 03:36:27 nod, I tried writing by hand first, yes... it sucked! 03:36:32 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:36:35 offby1: That's not true! 03:36:55 Riastradh: how did you know offby1 just made a spurious generalization? oO 03:38:32 There are goblins on my LAN, and they are eating my broadcast datagrams. Make them stop, please. 03:38:55 Daemmerung: what kind of goblins? 03:40:02 Picture the Hamburglar, only living on wi0 on a beater server running a giant glob of phlegm^h^h^h^h^h^hPerl. 03:40:17 heh 03:40:34 Daemmerung: the Lanburglar? 03:40:54 The "same" code elsewhere is tossing out datagrams that my of course flawless Scheme handles. Here, the datagrams are getting et. I blame the Lanburglar. 03:41:13 (elsewhere = on a different server, on a different LAN, hundreds of miles away) 03:41:32 I cannot test that which never arrives.... 03:42:53 There is something funny about UDP and wi0 on this box, that much I know from complaints that named is leaving in /var/log/messages. 03:43:05 check your iptables rules? 03:43:26 I'll try that. 03:46:23 elly, telepathy, of course. But it was a while ago that he made it, not just now. 03:46:51 Riastradh: well, yes 03:49:06 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #scheme 03:49:21 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:50:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-218.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:51:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:34 tjaway [n=timj@e176218185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:21 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 04:08:53 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176206113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #scheme 04:13:54 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:18:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 04:19:15 -!- nickgibbon [n=nring@210.8.201.244] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:30:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Success] 04:31:22 Nuts. The datagrams from the Lanburglar's server are out there, and indeed other hosts are receiving them. They're just not appearing on the workstation where my code is running. Yay for tcpdump, boo for my workstation. 04:37:58 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:33 Riastradh: well, you use contractions less often than most people. Admit it. 04:39:02 offby1: I do not agree with this, captain. 04:39:05 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit ["leaving"] 04:53:17 Riastradh has probably been speaking without the letter "e" all these years, and we never noticed 04:54:57 offby1: [citation needed] 04:55:31 elly: http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogram 04:57:01 I am familiar with the idea 04:57:07 the citation is for Riastradh doing it :P 04:57:55 incubot: "Profs from Oxford show frosh who do post-docs how to gloss works of Wordsworth." 04:57:58 "frosh week" 04:58:21 elly: he's doing it RIGHT NOW 04:58:29 you don't hear any "e"s, do you? Case closed. 04:58:34 only because we can't hear him! 05:00:16 well, duh. 05:01:47 -!- _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:08:06 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-199-23.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:33:09 Naturally I form'd all my words without that silly symbol. Why, had you a doubt? 05:33:41 Riastradh: :O 05:33:56 "form'd" is basically cheating, though 05:35:50 /form'd/would form/ 05:36:18 Naturally I'd form 05:36:21 somehow I feel like recommending "The Sot-Weed Factor" to all 05:36:43 If you insist: Naturally, I put a constraint of using only words without that silly symbol on all my prior articulation. 05:37:23 then it appears offby1's generalization _was_ right! 05:38:01 or it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, whichever is scarier 05:39:28 offby1, you must adapt that locution with `ganga' or similar, for that word of your option fails. 05:40:09 linguistic conservative! 05:40:25 lest the commoners consider him one of them! ;) 05:41:13 *copumpkin* dares Riastradh to write like a 14-year-old txting grl 4 a day 05:41:21 No. 05:41:26 ah well, I tried :) 05:41:42 *elly* dares Riastradh to speak without using 'e' for a day 05:41:55 lly: why? 05:42:05 copumpkin: :P why not? 05:42:34 hw bt sng n vwls 05:43:51 too annoying to the rest of us 05:43:58 I'll switch to iambic fifths on occasion. But not now, for I am moving futonward. 05:44:13 you are sleeping on a futon? :O 05:44:22 how collegiate! 05:44:35 surely not 05:44:43 maybe he is Japanese! 05:46:08 Maybe he's Futonian. 05:47:58 It's hard to find a good synonym for that word I was trying to avoid. I did avoid switching to, say, francais, in which I could cop out and say simply `lit'. 05:48:25 verslelit 05:48:36 the -ward suffix is nice 05:48:36 Just go to bd :| 05:48:38 litward? 05:48:46 Or I could cop out with Spanish and say `cama'. 05:49:21 that thing on floor 05:49:25 soft, comfy 05:49:40 That comfy chair!!?!? Noooooo...! 05:49:40 ward 05:50:06 not the soft pillow!! 05:50:25 pillow, fabric, wool 05:50:37 not the boo box! 05:51:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 05:51:12 Anyway, it grows tardy; *poof*. 05:51:14 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 05:51:40 lurking moon, dark nightward 05:55:26 incubot: it could be that nocturnal autism is a precondition of the violent ex nihilo, though 05:55:29 He's nocturnal, neale. 05:55:43 klutometis: how's the paper going? 05:56:16 elly: it's gone, for better or worse; submitted. 05:56:26 my doctor-father made me revise some of the victorian english, that's it 05:56:35 ah! 05:56:37 thanks for asking 05:56:57 I do not know if it is rude or not to ask grad students about their papers :P 05:57:02 how goes the google/microsoft coin toss? 05:57:16 who's heads, who tails? 05:57:16 looking googly 05:57:26 ah, nice; mountain view, or elsewhere? 05:58:24 cambridge :) 05:58:55 massachusetts or anglo-saxia? 05:59:04 massachusetts 05:59:35 great place to jog; also, be prepared to bust out the obligatory bikini in april once it hits 50F 05:59:44 haha 05:59:50 or maybe that's more of an undergrad thing 05:59:50 is that considered a local injoke? :P 06:00:14 I did a lot of my growing up in CT, so I am familiar with the weather 06:00:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:27 elly: where are you now? I assumed you were already in the area 06:00:36 no, I'm at school at CMU 06:00:36 ah, you should fit in; yeah, take a stroll along the charles in about four months 06:00:41 which is in Pittsburgh 06:00:45 it's more of an out-joke at that point ;) 06:00:49 which is *also* really cold 06:00:55 but not nearly as nice of a city 06:01:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:02:03 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:05:31 hrm 06:05:36 I need to figure out where to live in boston 06:05:44 any recommendations? closer to cambridge is better, of course 06:07:34 sommerville? depends how much bank you're making; if you can afford ~$2500 for a one bedroom, try harvard square 06:07:59 s/mm/m/ 06:08:11 $2500 a month? doubt that'll work 06:08:18 google's paying $83k 06:08:42 a lot of starving grad students i knew found accomodations in somerville 06:08:55 they were paid comparably, i think 06:09:09 starving grad students with 83k? :P 06:09:13 ...what? 06:09:20 that's starving harvard-style ;) 06:09:21 I wish! 06:09:23 how can you be starving on that salary? is boston _that_ expensive? :P 06:09:37 it's basically as expensive as manhattan, in my experience 06:10:04 I may not be living in that part of boston, then! 06:10:23 luckily, the T is pretty good; so you should be able to get around without a car 06:10:30 even if you live outside of cambridge 06:10:31 hopefully 06:10:39 I never found time to learn to drive ..> 06:10:41 er, >.> 06:11:04 many of the most intelligent people i know do not know how to drive 06:11:11 so you're in good company 06:11:30 I became eligible to learn at the end of my junior year of high school, I just never did 06:11:37 elly: I'm 25 and still can't drive 06:11:50 it's superfluous and risky; leave it to other people 06:12:05 copumpkin: I'm 20! 06:12:20 20 factorial is pretty old 06:12:26 it would be, yes 06:12:32 but 20 excitedly is not old 06:12:46 20 factorial is canonically written as (fact 20), anyway :P 06:12:53 pff 06:13:51 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:17:26 well, we'll see I guess 06:17:35 having MIT nearby is good :) 06:18:05 haskell user groups! ;) 06:18:24 indeed! 06:18:27 also geek culture :) 06:18:56 eww geeks 06:19:07 disagree 06:19:14 euwww culture 06:20:12 you guys just have no taste :P 06:20:58 just kidding :) I like the atmosphere 06:22:13 *elly* will need to find a new D&D game 06:22:40 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:22:47 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:56 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:03 when will you be moving there? 06:23:15 some time between may and august 06:23:33 I see 06:23:45 it is not at all nailed down :P 06:25:21 anyway, all the boston HUGs are at MIT usually 06:25:31 that's good 06:25:34 we're always trying to get more people to go 06:25:43 I'm not really a haskell user! 06:25:48 I just hang out in #haskell for fun 06:25:55 yeah, but you will be when I write my achievement system 06:26:26 well, yes 06:26:32 but you haven't, so I'm not 06:26:40 hrmpf 06:27:40 *elly* incentivizes! 06:27:48 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:54 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:31 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:36:17 I think that a bikini at 50F is less clothing than my constitution would allow :P 06:36:27 *elly* prefers to be wearing two full layers at that temperature 06:39:06 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:40:39 elly: that's what peer pressure is all about; and i wouldn't be surprised if peer-pressure has some effect on core temperature 06:40:44 though that's merely speculative ;) 06:41:04 think of dionysian ecstasy, though; there had to be some core-temperature fluctuations there 06:41:05 was that a really complicated innuendo? I can't even tell! 06:41:12 :o 06:41:43 heh; with me, there's always vague innuendi bandied about 06:41:59 please don't take offense 06:42:21 none taken 06:42:53 I was about to respond with a threat to apply pressure to you and see if your core temperature went up, but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate 06:43:19 sure, that's appropriate; but it may not be the only thing going up 06:43:24 ouch; that was bad; sorry 06:43:29 yeah, that *was* bad 06:43:35 o.O 06:43:36 O.o 06:43:39 o.o 06:43:47 copumpkin: hi! 06:43:54 O.O 06:44:33 +1 for knowing the plural of 'innuendo', though, klutometis :) 06:45:38 elly: oh, was that right? lucky guess. looked romantic, though 06:45:42 well innuendo is the ablative 06:45:55 is it? it also looks like an italian nominative 06:45:59 klutometis: I was guessing that it was right! maybe it isn't 06:46:09 I just assumed it was, since it looked right :P 06:46:22 innuere 06:46:32 in + nuere = to nod towards 06:47:13 innuendis would be ablative plural, but who knows :) we don't use it like an ablative in english anyway 06:47:19 copumpkin: good call; pl. ablative in 1st declension would be innuendis, wouldn't it? 06:47:42 maybe we should start a movement for innuendus and innuendi then 06:47:51 we are already frighteningly far beyond my grasp of latin 06:48:03 nonsense; let's stick with abl. plural 06:48:04 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:48:07 :) 06:48:13 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 06:48:43 one of my housemates knows latin decently well and could probably decide this, but he is either asleep or tanking Nexus 06:49:04 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:49:10 *copumpkin* is a big etymology nerd 06:49:11 well, the OED dictates innuendoes; but that's boring 06:49:47 anyway, time to go home, ciao! 06:50:26 in my current setup, home is a five-minute walk from campus :) 06:51:10 I wish I still lived next to campus :P 06:51:15 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 06:51:23 also, doesn't everyone connect with screen, anyway; or do people still log out these days? 06:51:26 guess so 06:51:39 I have no idea why people do that 06:51:51 I'm sitting inside a screen on a box in a datacenter 06:52:01 yeah; most of the interesting stuff happens when i'm asleep anyway 06:52:33 except perhaps this latest exchange, which was the most fun i've had in #scheme 06:53:05 really? 06:53:27 the most fun you've had here involves a discussion about the plural form of 'innuendo'? 06:53:40 well, we used to talk about literature and music here in the old days 06:53:46 but everyone's so fucking on topic lately 06:54:00 schemers are probably the most literate cats i know 06:54:01 we could be off-topic, i guess 06:54:04 er, s/i/I/ 06:54:42 the last book I read that I actually liked was The Elegance of the Hedgehog, though, which was maybe a month and a half ago 06:54:50 since then it has been a string of disappointing fiction 06:56:15 I am currently partway through "She's Come Undone", which I picked up randomly at LaGuardia, and I thoroughly loathe the protagonist 06:56:54 oh, that's interesting; i've been trying to get into some dickens, lately; but my palette has moved away from that proust-like mellfluity 06:57:10 s/mell/melli/ 06:57:19 i seem to crave laconic prose these days 06:57:26 it may be an engineering disease 06:57:27 I think that we may exist on different planes of taste in fiction, sir :P 06:57:54 can you recommend some modern people? 06:58:07 been meaning to get out of the 19th c. 06:58:26 the aforementioned "The Elegance of the Hedgehog" by Muriel Barbery is excellent 06:58:47 if you can read french, the original is supposed to be better, but my grasp of the language is not that good 06:59:12 i'm taking a look now; looks promising. you haven't heard of stieg larsson, by any chance, have you? 06:59:19 from earlier in the 20th century, "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny is fun 06:59:21 I have noit 06:59:23 not, even 06:59:57 "Tonguecat" by Peter Verhelst 07:00:12 "The Book Thief" by Markus Zusak 07:00:18 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 07:00:28 "the girl who played with fire", "the girl who kicked the hornet's nest", and "the girl with the dragon tattoo" is supposed to be a masterful trilogy 07:00:38 zusak i /have/ heard of; supposed to be really good 07:00:41 I have not read it 07:00:47 yes, The Book Thief is sublime 07:01:18 "I Am The Messenger", also by Zusak, is uplifting but not particularly challenging 07:01:40 "The Crying of Lot 49" is much more penetrable (in my experience) than the rest of Pynchon's work 07:01:45 both of them are in my amazon cart now 07:02:04 *elly* wanders over to inspect her bookshelf 07:02:08 I've read "Lord of Light". Most any Zelazny is awesome, especially if you're into retold obscure mythologies. 07:02:40 One of my favorites in fact. 07:02:51 "His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He preferred to drop the Maha- and the -atman, however, and called himself Sam. He never claimed to be a god, but then he never claimed not to be a god." 07:02:54 i've heard good things, too 07:03:34 avoid Zelazny's Amber series though. It must have been senility in his old age... 07:03:47 this may not appeal, but I loved it: "Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity" by Julia Serano 07:03:58 the first book of the Amber series is quite good, I think 07:04:17 I got as far as "Guns of Avalon" and then it was just...what 07:04:57 hm 07:05:07 I'm having difficulty thinking of any really good books that I've read in the past while 07:05:31 my bookshelf is no help, as it is largely populated with texts I got for a course on 'Deviancy in the 18th century: Piracy and Prostitution' 07:05:57 (and thus filled with colorful literature :P) 07:06:03 I read a good one called "The Right to Privacy" recently. Some interesting cases of unfortunate privacy breaches... 07:06:13 elly: heh; did they gives you guys any foucault? 07:06:28 I don't actually remember - there were a good three dozen books (!) 07:06:49 elly: isn't serano sort of a critic of feminism? 07:06:49 oh! 07:07:06 klutometis: that's not what I got out of it 07:07:37 klutometis: although she does (rightly, I think) have some rather vitriolic opinions about feminists who refuse to acknowledge transfemininity as having a legitimate narrative and viewpoint 07:08:12 klutometis: you've read Neuromancer, right? 07:08:15 elly: exactly; i thought there was some sense in which they tried to homogenize transgenderdom 07:08:21 yeah; that's a great book 07:08:38 klutometis: I don't understand the point of view you are attributing to her there 07:09:24 i've only read about her second hand; but my sense was that modern feminists discounted the diversity of transgendered females somehow; attributes inauthenticity to their movement 07:09:29 oh! 07:10:02 s/attributes/attributing/ 07:10:04 yes - "feminist" is orthogonal to "non-gender-binary", if you will 07:10:14 ah, interesting 07:10:31 many transgendered people end up in neither the male nor female parts of the traditional gender spectrum 07:10:42 and thus have few advocates? 07:10:43 and there are feminists (just as there are nonfeminists) that consider this more or less illegitimate 07:10:47 yes 07:10:49 feminism does not include those people 07:11:29 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:11:35 *elly* shrugs 07:11:43 it is in some sense an academic debate 07:12:13 there are also just examples of feminists of some stripes disregarding transgender identity altogether - e.g. the Michigan Womyn's Festival's refusal to allow entrance to transwomen 07:14:13 it is unfortunate, but I have other personal battles to deal with, so I do not burn energy worrying about it much :P 07:14:24 however, Serano's book does a pretty good job of discussing it, I think 07:14:32 although she is (obviously) biased 07:14:37 elly: my sense was, hanging out with people like judith butler, et al.; that academic feminism is actually a pretty exclusive clique 07:14:52 could be? academic * is usually an exclusive clique 07:15:13 good point 07:15:28 let's see, what else is in my bookshelf 07:15:34 I have a bunch of textbooks of varying quality 07:17:21 holy shit; i can't believe barbara johnson died this year. she served as a kind of feminist mentor when i was at harvard. 07:17:22 I dunno :P 07:17:49 I have Peter F. Hamilton's "Neutronium Alchemist" series, which you should not read 07:17:57 really? bad? 07:18:10 oh no, it's great 07:18:12 for the first 2996 pages 07:18:31 you mean, night's dawn trilogy? 07:18:32 there are 2996 pages of problem setup, and 4 pages of Deus ex Machina, and the book is over. Seriously. 07:18:39 there is a *literal* Deus ex Machina at the end 07:18:46 zbigniew: yes, I do 07:18:58 yep, that's an apt description 07:19:06 the journey was cool though 07:19:22 it was, yes 07:20:42 spoiler alert: at the end, the main character, joshua calvert, wakes up with suzanne pleshette 07:20:44 wow, respek; i thought it was a big deal to get through shakespeare at ~1800 pages; or stephen king's it at ~1000 07:20:50 zbigniew: hah 07:21:30 no, spoiler alert: the entire galaxy-spanning civilization-threatening problem that he spends so long setting up is actually solved in the span of less than 1000 words 07:21:39 you may think I exaggerate, but I do not 07:21:57 And It Was All A Dream 07:22:47 anyway, don't read that 07:23:07 I thought it was some kind of fluke until I read two of his other books and they both ended exactly the same way 07:23:17 haha 07:23:19 (i.e., the sleeping god awakens and wipes out the baddies) 07:24:06 klutometis: you might like Accelerando by Charles Stross, although reasonable people will disagree 07:24:11 to be fair, if he had not ended it that way, it would have NEVER ENDED 07:24:18 yes 07:24:53 I worry that I will get shot for suggesting this, but you might like "Atlas Shrugged" :P 07:25:38 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-105-135.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 07:25:42 I'm out of books now 07:25:50 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 07:26:22 lisptastic [n=user@76.177.227.49] has joined #scheme 07:30:06 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:30:23 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-100-157.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:33:06 *elly* pokes her head out of cover, having drawn no fire 07:34:07 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:37:47 elly: hmm; some kind of nanotechnology distopia? 07:37:55 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:37:57 doesn't look half bad 07:38:02 which? 07:38:09 accelerando 07:38:31 I did not see it as dystopian :P 07:38:51 it is under CC, so you can just acquire the PDF, but I recommend paying for it 07:39:14 oh, nice 07:39:23 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Operation timed out] 07:39:33 it's funny how compelling free distro is; just bought TSPL, too; even thought it's available 07:39:37 Ayn Rand's books have been used as an excuse for unbridled capitalism. 07:40:02 that is not relevant to whether they are worth reading or not 07:40:39 The story telling is very simple, so as a novell they are not worth the time. 07:41:02 I disagree with the inference there, but I am not going to have this argument 07:41:04 And as a philosophical text, they depict a simplified view on human nature. 07:41:51 Let's say that there are more beautiful novells around, which would provide a better use of the time it takes to read her books. 07:41:55 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:19 klutometis: if you can find it, "Autonomy: Freedom of Thought" by Jean-Michel Smith 07:42:31 (warning: as one of my friends puts it, "the ending is best taken with a stiff drink") 07:42:34 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:42:56 elly: is it also CC? 07:43:13 yes 07:43:17 CC-SA 07:43:47 pbusser: goethe's storytelling is simple, too; yet those novels are worthwhile. and nietzsche's zarathustra was used unadmirably; yet it, too, is worthwhile. 07:43:59 those things are extrinsic to the read-worthiness of a given work, i think 07:44:26 if anything, I think that books people use to justify objectionable things _should_ be read, so that we understand why 07:44:43 klutometis: http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~elly1/autonomy-5.2.21.txt :) 07:45:30 oh, cool; you're hosting it? 07:45:38 there is an authoritative host 07:45:45 I do not remember where it is, so I reuploaded my copy 07:46:00 if you find the auhtoritative one, there may be a new version up 07:46:01 klutometis: I haven't read those works, so I cannot judge. However, I read The Fountainhead and half of Atlas Shrugged, until I got bored by it. 07:48:09 authoritative, even 07:48:26 one of my housemates is torrenting something and it is imposing multiple-second latency on my typing 07:50:01 elly: i hate that; and always resorting to pressing enter blindly, mistakes be damned 07:50:29 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 07:50:44 I'm sorely tempted to log into the router and drop his packets, but that is considered gauche 07:51:41 elly: can't you just pepper it with RST packets randomly? 07:52:04 should be indistinguishable from latency on his end 07:52:12 also rather rude, and he'd notice 07:52:19 (he'd notice the DROP, too, but) 07:52:24 heh 07:52:45 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:54:23 I very much enjoyed Autonomy 07:54:33 and I must give it additional credit for quoting Alpha Centauri 07:54:33 scheme is cool 07:54:38 yes it is 07:54:53 I just read in SICP how to write, in five lines, a function that takes a function and returns another function, that is its derivative 07:54:56 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:54:57 can't do that in five lines of C 07:55:13 neat :) 07:55:17 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:55:29 wingo_ [n=wingo@74.Red-88-0-166.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 07:55:44 -!- wingo [n=wingo@155.Red-83-35-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:04 are there any major, highly visible software packages that are written partially or totally in a lisp dialect? 07:56:09 The only one I know of is emacs 07:57:15 I can't think of any... 07:57:27 you mean besides emacs 07:57:28 :) 07:57:51 yes 07:58:04 there is a theorem prover we use at CMU called ETPS, but it is atrociously bad 07:58:13 and I feel like I am sullying the good name of lisp by associating them 07:58:17 damn, you go to CMU? Lucky 07:58:24 I got in there, but it was too expensive 07:58:28 indeed! 07:58:38 I am very lucky to have parents that can afford it 07:59:11 My dad makes about $150k, he probably could have afforded it 07:59:27 uman: yahoo stores was written in lisp before yahoo bought it: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 07:59:29 he just didn't see why he should -- and I understand; it's his money and he worked hard for it 07:59:54 uman: too bad expenditures usually rise to meet income; so the scalar value doesn't mean much 08:00:58 klutometis: That's sensible 08:02:38 klutometis: Put it this way: it'd have been difficult but affordable for him to send me there. Which basically meant that the financial aid package they offered me was little more than a big middle finger 08:03:04 and since I got $8500 scholarship to the in-state U. of Arizona, it wasn't a hard choice. 08:03:07 Would've loved to go though 08:05:23 I like that the dvdcss haiku contains thanks to a professor whose office I have stood inside 08:08:41 hm, now *I* want to reread Autonomy 08:08:50 it is the first real crypto-anarchist book I ever read 08:09:39 macsyma/maxima is written in CL 08:10:02 hm 08:10:03 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 08:10:23 woo, crypto-anarchist 08:10:25 elly: touretzky? 08:10:44 indeed :) 08:10:46 dst, locally 08:21:57 uman: Lisp apps tend to be very vertical apps, custom written for a particular client. The packages themselves hence are usually invisible; however, they may have highly visible end results. The example that comes to mind is the extensive CGI in the Lord of the Rings films, where the character models were built with a 3D sculpting app called Mirai. Mirai was Written in CL-- Allegro, I think. 08:23:29 Daemmerung: ah, very interesting. 08:25:46 *elly* puts herself to bed 08:26:06 elly: 'night! 08:26:29 elly: Goodnight! 08:26:43 elly: 'nacht! 08:26:47 Man, it's like /The Waltons/ in here. 08:26:57 elly: I've got balls of steel. 08:27:07 Daemmerung: what do you mean? it /is/ the waltons, dude! AI-waltons, that is 08:27:47 i'm john-boy, and you're john sr. 08:28:08 elly is mary, of course 08:28:22 Good, 'cause I look lousy in gingham. 08:28:50 Sleep is a fine idea, put this stinker of a day to bed. Just let me finish choking down dinner. 08:29:39 Daemmerung: anything particularly bad today? 08:29:42 mmc1 [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:23 Networking woes, and reading too much Perl. 08:33:32 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 08:36:55 so what is everyone here working on? Do any of you use Scheme professionally? 08:39:09 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.66] has joined #scheme 08:47:24 Yes, but not as often as I'd like. Fortunately I'm old enough to be choosy about my gigs. Presently controlling a networked music player in PLT Scheme. 08:47:30 nice 08:52:42 uman: i've been doing scheme professionally for about four years 08:52:57 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:37 klutometis: what're you working on? 08:56:13 uman: right now some kind of biotech app for genetically tailored chemotherapy 08:57:33 dzhus [n=sphinx@89-178-136-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:59:05 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:31 -!- wingo_ [n=wingo@74.Red-88-0-166.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:02:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:04:45 HG` [n=HG@xdsleu016.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:06:17 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:10:07 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:10:53 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-!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:13:03 incubot: hilariously, the more autistic of my twain cats generates electricity upon petting; such that she is corroborated in her skittishness with every shocking stroke 14:13:07 In any case, even autistic people need to look at the numbers before adding them... 14:17:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:20:02 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:19 copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 14:23:48 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #scheme 14:26:23 what about artistes, then 14:31:01 Adamant: artistes do it ad libitum, of course 14:31:16 synx: that's...comforting 14:31:22 :o 14:32:07 elly: morning; it's always fascinating to wish someone 'night and wake to see them rise 14:32:23 i'm jealous of whatever REM took place 14:32:28 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 14:32:34 klutometis: you were up all night? 14:32:48 copumpkin: yeah; it's been a nocturnal couple weeks 14:32:57 papers, new projects; all that shit 14:32:58 good morning 14:33:12 I slept for about 5 hours, which is not enough by far :( 14:33:24 ah 14:33:29 I slept even less! 14:33:35 probably not less than klutometis though :) 14:33:52 especially with diet-crack-delayed-REM 14:34:04 heh :P 14:34:06 I've had something approximating a very good non-programmer sleep schedule for the last few weeks 14:34:24 I must be in danger of losing what little programming powers I had 14:34:36 Adamant: what about non-programmer promiscuity? 14:34:55 klutometis: sadly that hasn't hit yet 14:35:03 here's hoping though 14:35:05 heh; then you're fucked, so to speak 14:35:13 as far as I can tell, klutometis, that doesn't affect programming ability :) 14:35:37 elly: it depends, i guess, whether or not the post coitum triste hits 14:36:15 I've never had that before either, as far as I can tell - maybe I am doing something wrong :P 14:36:42 not European enough, probably 14:36:49 i think it's sort of like psilocybin: set and setting is everything 14:39:29 my anti-drug of choice is apparently single-malt whiskey and/or scotch 14:39:51 "not European enough, probably" 14:40:07 copumpkin: well, Continential 14:40:13 I like how Europe is a massive block 14:40:14 strontiumdog [n=user@p5B03B2BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:40:18 of uniformity 14:40:37 copumpkin: to be fair, the average European thinks the same thing about the US :p 14:41:00 copumpkin: and yes, I know you are from the UK and not really European :P 14:41:10 I wouldn't even say I'm from the UK :P 14:41:22 ah, I thought you were from there originally? 14:41:28 yeah, I guess :) 14:41:30 or have you done the citizenship dance here 14:41:44 -!- strontiumdog [n=user@p5B03B2BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:08 in the US? 14:42:08 ugh, I need to do the US citizenship dance at some point 14:42:12 yes 14:42:25 I kind of gained US citizenship without too much trouble 14:42:28 elly: where you from? 14:42:29 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:37 I'm Australian 14:42:44 ah 14:42:46 being that one or more of your parents are from .us? 14:42:46 Which part of? :-P 14:42:54 Sydney 14:43:06 Nice. Last time I went to Sydney was to attend a Google interview. :-P 14:43:10 *cky* is from Auckland. 14:43:11 Adamant: yep, but it wasn't trivial either (because my dad had barely lived in the US for long enough to qualify) 14:43:17 copumpkin: ah 14:43:27 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 14:43:32 so your mom was British then? 14:43:38 yep 14:43:39 (in which case she'd be yer mum) 14:43:41 alright 14:43:45 me mum 14:44:14 we have a few British war brides in my mom's side of the family 14:44:23 :o 14:45:41 copumpkin: funny thing, I thought that meant, being that one of my grandmothers was British originally 14:45:50 that I could get UK citizenship if I wanted it 14:45:54 nice 14:45:57 but 14:46:02 it's handy to have 14:46:10 makes it a lot quicker to get into european countries 14:46:12 had a cousin marry a UK expat that went back to the UK 14:46:12 a 14:46:19 and, apparently that doesn't work anymore 14:46:24 oh 14:46:43 so, she had to get UK residency/citizenship via the marriage route 14:47:27 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:47:53 Adamant: What? I thought you said your cousin married a UK expat and it didn't work, but that she had to go the marriage route for it to work? *totally confused* :-P 14:48:00 cky: no no 14:48:06 marriage is OK so far 14:48:29 but, she thought she could just get UK citizenship fairly easily because her grandmother was British 14:48:39 but apparently the regulations have changed 14:48:50 sad :( 14:48:56 Ah. *nods* 14:49:07 so, instead, she's getting citizenship/residency via the fact she's married to a Brit 14:49:15 *copumpkin* wanted italian citizenship too, but my friend tried it and it took him 5 years of bureaucracy to get it 14:49:40 So, by "marriage route", how does it work in the UK now? Like the US, where you had to have a legally recognised marriage? Or like New Zealand, where you have to have lived together with the citizen/resident for a year? 14:49:50 copumpkin: you switched persons in the middle of that statement :( 14:49:51 cky: hell if I know 14:49:56 they married in the US 14:49:59 Adamant: Hehehehe. 14:50:04 it's apparent recognized in the UK 14:50:08 elly: I do that a lot with /me :) I've started making a point of it ;) 14:50:13 you are a hater, copumpkin :P 14:50:25 cky: they did it because it was the easiest way to get married 14:50:31 Adamant: Well, yeah, that's a "legally recognised marriage", the same way I got into the US (I married an American, but the marriage took place in New Zealand). 14:50:37 right 14:50:39 Adamant: Yeah, I bet. 14:50:40 *copumpkin* grins, and I like it 14:51:29 copumpkin: I do that too, because it helps me hide the fact that I don't use any gendered-pronouns to refer to myself. 14:51:58 oh nice, I hadn't thought of that, but I'll add it to my list of virtue<-necessity excuses too 14:52:18 cky: here it's pretty easy, you just go to a local judge who handles marriages, or you get a clergyman or other person who's licensed to submit marriage stuff to the courts, and that's it 14:52:19 cky: when I was doing that, I used the ey/em/eir set 14:52:34 one of my friends uses they/them/their for themselves 14:52:59 Adamant: Getting married in New Zealand was pretty hassle-free too. 14:52:59 cky: apparently everything about the marriage has to have a license in .uk 14:53:03 yeah 14:53:07 damn weirdos, why can't they speak muhrican like everyone else 14:53:14 Adamant: Well, I mean you have to have a licence, but that's not a hassle to get. 14:53:19 yeah 14:53:31 cky: in .uk the venue has to be licensed too 14:53:38 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 14:53:39 and probably a bunch of other stuff, and it's expesive 14:53:41 Adamant: Geez. :-( 14:53:58 copumpkin: because muhrican has an annoying tendency to impose gender on personal nouns :P 14:53:59 elly: *nods* I thought about it, but using first-person pronouns is often easier. :-P 14:54:20 cky: except when it leads to grammatical atrocities like switching persons in the middle of a sentence! 14:54:21 elly: that's the way god wanted it when he gave us his language! 14:54:32 copumpkin's sentence above shifted without a clutch, with the expected result 14:54:38 elly: Some would say that "singular they" is a grammatical atrocity too. I say get with the times. :-P 14:54:43 *grins, ducks, and runs* 14:54:47 cky: thus ey/em/eir :P 14:54:56 *copumpkin* is reading a book on style right now 14:55:06 Fortunately if you refer to people on the internet as male you are statistically likely to be right 14:55:12 The one I know about is sie/hir/hir. :-P 14:55:19 Jafet: only on IRC 14:55:23 ey/em/eir sound much better when spoken 14:55:34 Jafet: yes, but it bothers people when you're wrong 14:55:35 that's not so much the case anymore in general, really 14:55:46 so ey is nominative, em is accusative, and eir is genitive? 14:55:51 I've found that when I say "them" people hear "him", so "em" is not going to improve things any in that department. :-P 14:56:11 Think about how "them" and "em" sound in Kiwi accent, though. 14:56:21 It's a lot shorter than most other accents would sound. :-P 14:56:33 The Germans don't seem to have a problem with gender over internet 14:56:54 I thought German was more gendered than English even 14:57:08 copumpkin: Pretty much. 14:57:12 though not as much as most Romance languages 14:57:22 copumpkin: "Ey went home with em and eir pet." 14:57:37 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:41 *copumpkin* puts the (male) butter on a (male) plate on the (female) table, sits down on his (female) chair, picks up his (male) knife, and spreads the (male) butter on his (male) bread 14:58:51 copumpkin: lol yes 14:59:13 it's not random, but unless you are fully embedded in the culture, it might as well be 14:59:18 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:59:31 *copumpkin* puts the (male) butter on a (female) plate on the (female) table, sits down on his (female) chair, picks up his (male) knife, and spreads the (male) butter on his (male) bread 14:59:49 *copumpkin* wonders whether it is possible for people to determine which romance language he's thinking of 15:00:23 probably but I don't even remember that for French, which is the only one I really learned anything about 15:00:32 :) 15:00:41 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:01:09 in any case, gendered pronouns are annoying, etc etc 15:01:15 yep 15:01:37 elly: 100% agree. 15:01:44 it would have saved me a decent amount of time that I spent getting my friends to use female pronouns for me if all pronouns were genderless 15:01:44 I hate that it's cumbersome (in English) to talk about people without assuming a gender 15:01:48 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:01:52 alaricsp: yes 15:02:19 The only way I could currently find is to use "singular they", and as I said, even that has pitfalls when you say it with a New Zealand accent. 15:02:27 I mean, I assume that programmers are male, because it's a mouthful to work out how to avoid giving them a gender, and statistics say they're male 15:02:37 ...thereby reinforcing some annoying stereotypes. 15:02:53 yeah, but I'm a programmer and I'm not male, and I would be bothered by you assuming that I am 15:02:59 programmer doesn't have gender 15:03:01 Exactly 15:03:04 (I'm sorry :-) 15:03:11 compared to say, something like nursing 15:03:30 well, implied gender, not formal gender 15:03:53 I know, but if I'm talking about a programmer, I have to work to phrase things as 'they' and 'them' sometimes 15:03:59 Adamant: Nursing has no more implied gender than programming has, but YMMV. 15:04:06 I now can't think of the more awkward cases, though ;-) 15:04:08 ah, that's just what I do - they and them 15:04:12 we could just drop pronouns entirely 15:04:28 copumpkin: I once suggested the use of backreferences. 15:04:30 cky: I agree it shouldn't and does increasingly less now, but historically it strongly did, yes 15:04:32 copumpkin: if you think 'they/them/their' sound awkward, wait until you try not using pronouns :P 15:04:36 Going to they/them requires redoing word endings 15:04:40 He/she eats a cake; they eat a cake 15:04:43 cky: or de bruijn indices! 15:04:46 And has ambiguities with the plural 15:04:50 (Alice) and (Bob) send each other keys, then $1 proceeds to send a message to $2. 15:04:58 *copumpkin* settles on his proposal 15:05:00 they eat them some cake, uh huh 15:05:04 ;-) 15:05:09 *copumpkin* will only use de bruijn indices for pronouns from now on 15:05:15 some folks call it a sling blade, I call it my kaiser blade 15:05:18 *Adamant* ducks 15:05:19 copumpkin: haha, do it 15:05:27 copumpkin: Are those like backreferences too? 15:05:46 cky: sort of, yeah. It's a convenient way of representing lambda calculus without mentioning the variable names explicilty 15:06:03 so we'd treat elly did x; she said y as 15:06:06 alaricsp, preserving the word ending avoids embiguity. 15:06:07 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:10 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleu016.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:14 \elly -> elly x; elly y 15:06:19 or something along those lines 15:06:45 clauses in which two different people are in scope 15:06:51 That's what \1 said! 15:06:54 Adamant: actually, "meet the fockers" has an interesting counterexample to your nursing example 15:06:59 well, for de bruijn indices, it'd be: \elly -> \1 x; \1 y 15:07:01 can be represented as nested lambdas so we can resolve ambiguity that way 15:07:08 Jafet: How do you mean? "He goes to the zoo" -> "They goes to the zoo"? 15:07:14 copumpkin: Ah. 15:07:18 alaricsp, yes. 15:07:19 klutometis: what bit 15:07:28 yes, I know there are a fair amount of male nurses now 15:07:34 the question is how do you make jokes like "that's what SHE said" when there's no referent in scope 15:07:50 I was speaking more historically 15:08:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun 15:08:02 since nursing is a much older profession than programming 15:08:07 copumpkin: use nominative irrelevance! 15:08:11 copumpkin: Maybe use a backreference index greater than any existing one, e.g., numbered starting from 100. :-P 15:08:14 it's like proof irrelevance, but better :) 15:08:19 :) 15:08:38 (there exists some she such that) that's what \1 said! 15:08:47 and then you make the first part irrelevant and you're set 15:09:06 elly: That sounds like it requires some amount of mental garbage collection. :-P 15:09:13 Or at least mental refcounting. :-P 15:09:18 mental garbage collection already happens 15:09:32 Adamant: oh, maybe the part where robert de niro has a prosthetic breast swollen with human milk 15:09:32 Even for non-programmers? :-P 15:09:42 We don't lexically scope natural language, though 15:09:44 klutometis: ow 15:09:47 heh 15:09:49 yeah - that's what the hippocampus does during sleep 15:09:55 Jafet: shh! :) 15:10:02 we should, if we don't 15:10:03 Mmm. 15:10:03 elly: But you're asking the listener to do the same in live conversation. 15:10:09 That's something else. :-P 15:10:13 cky: well, yes, but :P 15:10:21 *copumpkin* always has lexical scoping in his speech 15:10:22 Nonsense day, is it? 15:10:29 masm: always 15:10:44 I also do air parentheses to make the precedences clearer 15:11:01 I just say the parens, but I tend to speak almost exclusively to programmers 15:12:58 German has subclauses, they can perform tail recursion, it sometimes becomes confusing to the reader, who cannot process long chains, they are artificially constructed like this 15:13:00 Do you have any one-syllable way to refer to ( and to )? I think some people use "brac" and "ket", but YMMV. 15:13:16 The physicists beat us to that 15:13:20 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:13:25 I use 'open' and 'close' 15:13:39 offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 15:13:45 -!- Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has left #scheme 15:14:27 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:42 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:34 *copumpkin* wonders what linguistic induction would look like 15:17:45 I'm afraid 15:17:45 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:18:03 I probably ought to clean my room... 15:18:24 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:18:26 pff 15:24:26 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:26:46 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:03 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:08 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:33 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:35:54 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:23 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:43:33 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:44:16 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #scheme 15:50:46 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 15:52:45 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-173.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:52:56 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:56:41 twenty-first century digital girl... 15:56:46 this is such a silly cover 16:05:42 of King Crimson? 16:07:26 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 16:07:46 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:07:48 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 16:08:13 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:35 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 16:10:11 knuckolls [n=Kevin@office.americanroamer.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:54 germ13 [n=germ13@cpe-75-83-42-140.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:15:06 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:15:22 -!- knuckolls [n=Kevin@office.americanroamer.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:49 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 16:17:45 I thought that was from Bad Religion 16:17:59 well, the original 16:18:51 ah, which may have been inspired by a King Crimson 16:18:54 song 16:18:54 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 16:19:45 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:19:50 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:11 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:45 -!- germ13 [n=germ13@cpe-75-83-42-140.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:22:45 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 16:32:05 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:37:19 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:45:29 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:53:31 chandler, ping? Back from CES yet? 16:57:28 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:04 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.121.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:57 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:07:43 SvekloA [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 17:09:55 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 17:15:16 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:25 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:23:42 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:24:02 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:33:02 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:43:59 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:01 elly: cover of what? 18:05:30 gnomon: Hello sir! 18:06:46 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:07:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-173.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:17:46 TR2N [i=email@89-180-173-174.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 18:21:31 leppie: techno/dance German band cover of a US punk band song inspired by a English/US prog rock band song 18:21:40 IIRC 18:21:51 crazy germans 18:22:17 "21st Century Digital Girl" <- "21st Century Digital Boy" <- "21st Century Schizoid Man" 18:22:32 20th century fox :) 18:22:43 21st Century Fox 18:23:10 I think they thought ahead a little bit and trademarked that one :P 18:23:10 hmmm, did it change ? 18:23:13 no 18:23:23 it's still officially 20th Century 18:23:24 t 18:23:31 and the doors song (which I was really thinking about) 18:23:44 they just went ahead and snagged the 21st bit for later if they want, I think 18:24:04 which one? 18:24:10 yes, I was correct :) 18:24:20 20th century fox - the doors 18:24:26 ah 18:24:28 lol nice! 18:24:30 visof [n=visof@41.238.232.189] has joined #scheme 18:24:41 to the Youtubes! 18:25:02 lol, 21th was 20th centruy fox 18:26:06 leppie: I think they originally did it for a changed intro for a sci-fi movie they put on then decided to just go ahead and acquire the name 18:26:15 nope 18:26:21 21th does not exisit 18:26:31 you can go have the wikipedia page for yourself :) 18:26:35 a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has joined #scheme 18:27:16 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 18:27:24 yeah 18:27:26 I just did 18:27:37 lol, shows you when last I was in a movie, didnt even know it didnt exisit anymore 18:27:41 ok, clearly I was thinking of the thing they did for Futurama 18:27:59 wasnt that 30th century fox ? 18:28:03 but I thought they did it with the 21st bit in another movie too 18:28:05 yeah 18:28:24 you have to love google images :) 18:29:42 Adamant: Was it The Matrix? 18:29:53 hell if I remember 18:30:06 I think the Matrix was in the 22nd or 23rd Century anyway 18:30:12 supposedly 18:30:15 mebbe 18:30:17 *sjamaan* shrugs 18:30:20 simpsons movie 18:30:42 the Simpsons movie was kind of disappointing 18:31:09 I did get to visit a redone Kwik-E-Mart/7-11 though 18:31:12 spider pig! 18:31:22 :) 18:31:26 yeah, but they put that in the trailer :P 18:31:36 They always put the best parts in trailers :( 18:32:06 good movies don't put the best parts in trailers, because you can't fit them all in 18:32:20 heh, good point 18:33:31 ye sixteenthe centurie foxxe 18:36:06 -!- mmc1 [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:41:17 hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:43:43 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 18:47:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 18:57:58 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:33 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:04:07 -!- _nofear [n=maxwell@189.115.10.143] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:09:26 -!- hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:15:26 wingo_ [n=wingo@33.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:45 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-17-71.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:25:22 jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has joined #scheme 19:25:22 greets 19:26:01 -!- jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:26:10 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-112-112.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:00 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:31 -!- ecloud [n=rutledge@ip72-208-148-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:11 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-105-135.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:34:15 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 19:36:45 -!- a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:59 bytecolor pasted "latest parser " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93249 19:42:07 SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 19:42:31 ecloud [n=rutledge@ip72-208-148-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:35 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:41 bytecolor: what scheme is that with? 19:43:13 chick chick chicken! 19:44:23 ungh 19:44:29 why are textbooks still sold on dead trees/ 19:44:31 *? 19:44:53 I *like* dead tree versions 19:45:44 :) 19:46:13 i still have my uni textbooks, but not my uni email 19:46:31 jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has joined #scheme 19:46:32 elly: I suppose it's more difficult to illegally copy them. 19:46:42 we just need to improve our space fairing capabilities so we can venture out an plunder other worlds! 19:46:46 I really, really dislike dead trees 19:47:43 with an exponential population growth, it's only a matter of time 19:48:52 The Necronomicon just isn't the same, read on a Kindle. 19:49:16 Though I suppose I could get a device cover made of the tanned hide of infants. 19:49:34 LOL 19:51:07 sjamaan: I read your thread about modules. I was kind of leaning toward (require) then (import) that seemed to be the only way I could get it to work 19:51:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:33 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:34 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:52:23 ic 19:52:48 copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-196.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 19:52:53 I kind of gave up on the whole module system as it does not allow recursive imports 19:53:11 What's a recursive import? 19:53:54 procs in mod1 call procs in mod2 that call procs in mod1, etc 19:54:06 That doesn't make a whole lot of sense 19:54:17 modules are things with a clear boundary and API 19:54:38 If modules are tightly coupled with eachother, they're not really separate modules, are they? 19:54:57 well, it's *doable* in most any other language. weather it's good form or not 19:55:10 I guess you can use units for that 19:55:40 or... modules. 19:55:48 -!- wingo_ is now known as wingo 19:57:23 I looked at a lot of the eggs source. of course none of them are mutually recursive, some have source files 1k+ lines. That's just too much in a single file for me. 19:57:41 bytecolor: I have to admit, I had such a problem once or twice. Often it's just a matter of organization: in those cases, just use INCLUDE 19:57:55 nod 19:58:06 -!- SvekloA [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:17 I could refactor my code, and it would probably be better for doing that, but 20:00:22 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:00:22 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:28 I read something about Dybvig writing a module system based on macros that was supposed to be a bolt-on to most any scheme. Need to read more about that 20:03:10 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:03 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:05:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:47 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit ["Client Quit"] 20:12:51 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:13:23 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-254-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:32 bytecolor: that would be psyntax and the syntax-case module system 20:20:30 mathk [n=mathk@lns-bzn-46-82-253-198-147.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:58 probably more precisely referred to as the psyntax module syste 20:23:00 *system 20:26:35 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:18 SvekloA [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:32:29 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-63-13.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:57 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:38:20 zbigniew: oh? thanks 20:38:55 are there any tree-processing-routine srfi's? 20:41:03 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-112-112.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:41:04 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:41:53 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:20 bah, it will be a good exercise in recursion ;) 20:49:06 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:54 -!- eli is now known as eli123 20:52:58 -!- eli123 is now known as eli 20:54:54 bytecolor: see for yourself http://srfi.schemers.org/final-srfis.html 20:57:28 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-63-13.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:32 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-63-13.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:58:36 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:59:27 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:00:24 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:01:00 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:11 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:44 C-Keen: I've got them all bookmarked by category, did I miss something? 21:02:31 srfi-1 states it does not do tree processing, well not directly 21:05:04 chandler, welcome back! 21:05:30 Thanks! 21:05:35 bytecolor: you look for a balanced tree implementation? 21:07:26 rotty_: just need to walk a tree and if I find (regexp "foo" #f #f #f) compile it 21:08:47 '(x y (z (regexp "foo" #f #f #f))) => (x y (z #)) 21:09:11 -!- makmanalp [n=legato@80.76.201.55] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:09:18 some sort of map-tree ;) 21:09:45 hrm, it could actually modify the tree in place in this instance 21:10:07 no need to make a copy of it 21:12:23 makmanalp [n=legato@80.76.201.55] has joined #scheme 21:12:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:18:22 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 21:19:14 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 21:19:31 -!- mmmulani [n=mmmulani@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has left #scheme 21:20:26 hello Riastradh 21:20:54 Hi. 21:26:28 -!- SvekloA [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:26:59 schmir [n=schmir@p54A905C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:41:48 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 21:44:00 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.232.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:22 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:41 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 21:52:35 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 22:10:27 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 22:16:58 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:57 -!- jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:52 why would '(#) give me: ureadable object? 22:24:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:24:41 hrm, so ' has nothing to do with the reader, only evaluation 22:26:10 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-173-174.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:35 awarrington [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:40 Generally, # is a notation for a `write' of a value that can't be `read' back. Your system might have a different way to serialize such values. 22:26:55 -!- awarrington is now known as awarring 22:26:59 ah, I see 22:27:37 rudybot: eval (write car) 22:27:38 Daemmerung: ; stdout: "#" 22:27:53 nod 22:28:55 my test suite produces => (quote (#regexp)) as output, but I cant figure out how to match that, guess I need to convert it to a string or something 22:29:21 er (quote (#)) 22:33:17 (with-output-to-string (lambda () (write (grammar-ref skipper 'start)))) 22:33:23 beeeutiful ;) 22:34:14 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:48 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:07 jao [n=jao@80.31.222.61] has joined #scheme 22:46:01 jao: i have seen your problem 22:46:06 the line number one 22:46:22 ah, wrong channel 22:48:27 devslashnull [n=nope@202.3.37.228] has joined #scheme 22:55:03 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:16 Well great, now my password accounts are protected but it takes 30 seconds to scan through them. 23:04:03 well, there's an easy solution anyway. 23:10:52 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-108-190.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:13:36 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 23:19:10 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:24 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:22:59 -!- mathk [n=mathk@lns-bzn-46-82-253-198-147.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:55 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:09 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:24:40 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-199-23.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:09 TR2N [i=email@89.180.218.57] has joined #scheme 23:35:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:35:27 eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.174] has joined #scheme 23:35:52 dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 23:36:38 here's how i get rid of a last element of a list: I say (reverse (cdr (reverse ls))); is there any idiom for this without reverse? 23:36:42 -!- eclugtesting [n=mona@212.33.202.174] has left #scheme 23:37:21 I don't think so 23:37:34 rudybot: (eval (last '(1 2 3)) 23:37:34 jonrafkind: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 23:37:49 rudybot: eval (last '(1 2 3)) 23:37:50 elly: your sandbox is ready 23:37:50 elly: ; Value: 3 23:38:01 rudybot: eval (drop 1 '(1 2 3)) 23:38:02 elly: error: drop: expected argument of type ; given (1 2 3) 23:38:07 rudybot: eval (drop '(1 2 3) 1) 23:38:08 elly: ; Value: (2 3) 23:38:11 wrong one :P 23:38:15 uh oh... 23:38:24 rudybot: init 23:38:25 synx: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 23:38:40 rudybot: eval (exact? 2) 23:38:41 synx: ; Value: #t 23:38:57 rudybot: eval (exact? (expt 2 32)) 23:38:58 synx: ; Value: #t 23:39:10 rudybot: eval (expt 2 64) 23:39:11 synx: ; Value: 18446744073709551616 23:39:20 rudybot: eval (expt (expt 2 32) 2) 23:39:21 synx: ; Value: 18446744073709551616 23:39:38 it's using arbitrary-precision arithmetic, I think, synx 23:39:38 rudybot: eval (expt 2 68) 23:39:39 jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready 23:39:39 jonrafkind: ; Value: 295147905179352825856 23:39:46 rudybot: eval (expt 2 512) 23:39:46 jonrafkind: ; Value: 13407807929942597099574024998205846127479365820592393377723561443721764030073546976801874298166903427690031858186486050853753882811946569946433649006084096 23:40:00 damn... I swear I get zero for that last one. 23:40:11 is rudybot running on a 64 bit system? 23:40:35 no idea? 23:40:39 it does not matter 23:40:51 No. 23:41:04 I worry that for some PLTs (expt (expt 2 32) 2) => 0. 23:41:09 It does for mine. 23:41:29 which version? 23:41:33 hm, it's 0 here as well 23:41:35 interesting 23:41:40 All I can think is it expects the thing to fit into 64 bits, and it overflows. 23:41:43 4.2.3 23:41:55 Not here. 23:42:01 I'm on a 64-bit system 23:42:03 Guess I should fill out a bug report... 23:42:08 yes, you should 23:42:17 It's probably a 64 bit overflow then. 23:42:38 im on a 32-bit system, i get the right number (not 0) 23:42:51 jonrafkind: what do you get for (expt (expt 2 16) 2)? 23:43:00 4294967296 23:43:06 *elly* shrugs 23:43:07 eclugtesting1 [n=mona@212.33.202.161] has joined #scheme 23:43:10 must be a 64-bit problem then 23:43:17 im on a 32-bit os on top of a 64-bit amd chip actually 23:43:27 let me try on my 32-bit os + 32-bit chip 23:43:46 stil works 23:44:01 -!- eclugtesting1 [n=mona@212.33.202.161] has left #scheme 23:44:27 hokay, submitted 23:44:39 good luck 23:44:45 It'd only be a problem if the os were using 64 bit arithemitic, jonrafkind. 23:44:53 right 23:45:24 Don't worry about me I can work around it. I just don't want anyone else's banking balance program to jump down to 0. 23:45:58 Your own build, or pre-built? 23:46:08 -!- wingo [n=wingo@33.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:47:05 if your bank balance is anywhere near 2 ** 64, congrats 23:47:55 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 23:48:04 Chinese emperor's chessboard 23:48:08 :P 23:48:38 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-69-251-24-39.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 23:49:26 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:50:22 Bowl of rice the size of the moon. Hungry-man sized. 23:51:35 Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has joined #scheme 23:52:20 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:20 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:27 -!- annodomini_ is now known as annodomini 23:56:36 Daemmerung: a few Emperor's chessboards here, a few Emperor's chessboards there, and pretty soon you're talking about a real intergalactic rice stockpile