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Thus there is no equivalent of elisp's `SET' in Scheme. 01:53:54 ah! 01:53:57 good explanation 01:54:03 yeah; define seems to be the elisp-set-function; but the behavior seems different 01:54:07 I was trying to think of the words to explain that 'foo is not an identifier 01:54:13 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:19 even though it contains an identifier as its value 01:54:55 chandler's words are too new for me; i dont quite know what a lexical scope is 01:55:01 i seem to know what a scope is, tho :) 01:55:01 er... hm 01:55:02 `define' is something different yet. It's more akin to `defun' (for functions) or `defparameter' (for values). 01:55:35 `defparameter' might not be a native elisp thing, though. I never remember; my pidgin elisp is CL with more cursing. 01:55:39 lexical scope means that variables are only visible inside the form they are defined in, and functions introduce new scopes, I think 01:55:59 (so you cannot reach up into your caller's scope and molest their variables) 01:56:13 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-104-109.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:23 dansa: Lexical scope means that a binding form - `let' for example - creates a binding contour in which any use of the bound variable refers to that binding, regardless of when the reference is made. 01:56:32 but i can define a variable at the top level of my module and use it inside functions, no? 01:56:37 masm [n=masm@bl5-105-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 01:56:48 There is a top level environment (usually). 01:57:01 dansa: yes, because variables in either the top level or the module you're in are always visible 01:57:14 chandler: in my words, i translate your saying to: let-variables shadow anyone outside? 01:57:34 It's more than just shadowing. Consider (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)) . 01:57:56 elly: but now consider that against chandler's; he says all variables in scheme are lexically scoped; so how come we can see things outside a let being inside a let? 01:58:08 chandler: let me consider that; it'll take time 01:58:22 let doesn't introduce a *new* lexical environment the way a function does 01:58:28 let extends your existing lexical environment 01:58:36 In elisp, the function returned by this expression refers to the current dynamic value of `x' when it is called. In Scheme or Common Lisp, the use of `x' inside the `let' always refers to the binding created by that `let'. 01:58:41 yes 01:59:02 dansa: so... if you define a lambda inside a function body, the locals of that function are visible in the lambda 01:59:05 elly: I'm not sure what you're saying by that. `let' is just syntactic sugar for a procedure call, so it doesn't do anything that procedures don't do. 01:59:14 er, sorry 01:59:17 I am explaining very badly 01:59:33 it's alright by me :) but i'm still studying chandler's let 01:59:39 *dansa* is quite slow 01:59:43 the reason functions don't share scopes is that their bodies are separate lexical forms 01:59:51 dansa: It is not that `let' excludes any outside bindings from being referred to, but rather that it means that inner uses of that identifier, unless shadowed, always refer to that binding. 01:59:59 like, (define (foo) ...) (define (bar) ...) are different forms 02:00:03 elly: agreed. that makes sense. 02:00:04 *elly* has now confused herself 02:00:34 chandler: i gotta ponder about your last message. it seems i understand, but hang on. 02:00:43 Sure. 02:01:07 elly: Probably best to leave the top-level out of this for now. It's conceptually hopeless anyway. 02:01:15 the toplevel? 02:01:31 Yeah, unless those `define's are inner `define's. 02:01:38 Inner `define' is conceptually hopeless too. :-) 02:02:33 okay; a let will let us see outside; i just tested; but if let x be 1; then any mention of x inside the let is no x outside. that is tested. so your let above is a function which you defined with lambda; and aw... lambda uses the x defined inside; and somehow every time i call that function, it returns 1; so, i guess the system expands your let and the x variable is completely gone because it always takes the value 1 anyway (or maybe that's 02:02:40 hrm 02:02:56 actually, I guess 'define' is 'force this definition into the containing scope' 02:02:58 which is a really weird idea 02:03:40 dansa: You got cut off by the IRC line limit at "maybe that's". 02:03:46 elly: indeed; i just tested that too; and i had never thought about it 02:03:58 really? wow; i'll repeat in two chunks 02:04:15 okay; a let will let us see outside; i just tested; but if let x be 1; then any mention of x inside the let is no x outside. that is tested. so your let above is a function which you defined with lambda; and aw... lambda uses the x defined inside; 02:04:20 and somehow every time i call that function, it returns 1; so, i guess the system expands your let and the x variable is completely gone because it always takes the value 1 anyway (or maybe that's what one calls a closure) 02:04:43 Yes, that's a closure. 02:04:51 Now try (let ((x 1)) (funcall (let ((x 2)) (lambda () x)))) in elisp. 02:05:16 on closure: maybe that's a closure because i could use the x variable with more complexity; so the system cant get rid of the variable completely; so that must be a closure 02:05:27 let me try that. hang on. 02:05:37 rudybot: eval (define funcall (lambda (f . args) (apply f args))) 02:05:48 rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) (funcall (let ((x 2)) (lambda () x)))) 02:05:49 chandler: ; Value: 2 02:06:10 strange; the top x takes precedence 02:06:23 doesn't the second let create a new lexical scope? 02:06:29 Elisp is not lexically scoped! 02:06:30 not in elisp! 02:06:33 That's why `SET' works in elisp. 02:06:35 oh! :)( 02:06:41 that's right :) 02:07:11 do we have funcall in scheme? 02:07:16 `x' always refers to the binding in effect at the time that the use is actually computed. This is why the association between name and binding can be deferred to runtime so that `SET' works. 02:07:37 In Scheme, you don't need `funcall' because there is no separate namespace for functions. 02:08:12 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:13 i see; hm, well, it's strange why we need it in elisp then; i'm clearly not with things very clear in mind :) 02:08:28 yeah; elisp blows an error without funcall 02:08:40 and scheme returns 2; interesting differences 02:08:48 unexpected to a dansa 02:08:55 In elisp, `let' binds names as variables. The call position in an expression is looked up in a separate function namespace. 02:09:31 so in elisp, variables and functions live in different name spaces 02:09:34 correct? 02:09:36 yes 02:09:38 in scheme, they're all the same? 02:09:40 Yes. 02:09:42 yes! 02:09:46 "LISP-1" vs "LISP-2" 02:10:10 now, gimme time to see if i can deduce the need for funcall :) 02:10:17 in elisp, that is. 02:10:44 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A93E3D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:25 well, ((lambda () 6)) returns 6 in elisp; i expected the need for funcall. what's up? 02:14:37 it works the same way in scheme 02:14:58 It's a syntactic hack. Only literal lambdas work there, but you can't do something like: 02:15:11 rudybot: eval ((let ((x 1)) (lambda () x))) 02:15:11 chandler: ; Value: 1 02:16:04 hm; you're saying, in a closure... i cannot call a anonymous function unless i use funcall, in elisp; is that correct? 02:16:49 No; I'm saying that only a symbol or a literal lambda expression is allowed in call position in elisp. 02:16:55 Here's another example of something that does not work 02:17:46 rudybot: eval ((car (list (lambda () 1)))) 02:17:46 chandler: ; Value: 1 02:18:09 rudybot: eval ((if (even? 1) (lambda () #t) (lambda () #f))) 02:18:09 chandler: ; Value: #f 02:18:33 oh; your example [((let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)))] treats the whole let as a function itself; that doesnt work in elisp; this must mean that a let is not expanded into a lambda expression? 02:19:39 in the car example, that's the same thing: car returns a function, but elisp fails to execute it; that's what i see :) 02:19:54 Emacs is not evaluating it at all. 02:19:56 scheme runs it just fine; scheme is therefore intuitive? :) 02:20:13 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-55-41.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:20:20 Only symbols are allowed in the call position in elisp, except for the little hack of literal lambda expressions. 02:20:42 well, emacs must return ``(lambda () 1)'' with (car (list (lambda () 1))), right? 02:20:44 It's pre-expansion even: you can't define a macro that expands into a literal lambda expression and use it in call position either. 02:21:08 No. It's not evaluating it at *all*, because (car mumblefutz) does not belong in call position in elisp. 02:21:41 Anything other than (a-symbol-goes-here ...) or ((lambda ...) ...) is invalid in elisp. 02:22:15 i can confirm that; but ``call position'' is new vocabulary 02:22:34 but i see... what you mean by a hack 02:22:49 ``((lambda ...) ...)'' shouldnt work; but they made it into an exception 02:22:54 maybe because it's too useful? 02:23:14 the idea in elisp being that every function needs a name no matter what 02:24:08 you can declare functions without names, but you can't call them in most cases; the only case where you can call them is in the exception we just mentioned; for all other cases, you need funcall 02:24:24 (talking about elisp) 02:24:30 (of course) 02:24:56 The idea is that `lambda' is not a special form; `function' is. `function' looks up names in the function namespace and creates anonymous functions. The call position of an expression must either name a macro, a special form, or something that `function' would accept. 02:25:28 ``special form'' being the hack? 02:25:37 However, that's not quite the rationaile: I think this particular syntactic hack was borrowed from Common Lisp, where it was introduced solely to make the Y combinator less verbose. 02:25:51 The hack is accepting non-names in call position in a lisp-2. 02:26:09 a lambda form is a non-name, no? 02:26:14 Right. 02:26:24 so special forms are the hack 02:26:27 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-153.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:26:48 i dont know what a y combinator is, but i suppose we should leave that for another day 02:27:01 No; special forms are not the hack. :-) 02:27:21 hehe; it's not clear to me then; i hope you're patient :) 02:27:43 The hack is that ((lambda ...) ...) works in elisp (and Common Lisp). 02:28:01 dansa: See if this helps: imagine that all functions in elisp are stored in an hash table indexed by symbols. When you write (list 1 2 3), the elisp reader reads ((get-fn 'list) 1 2 3). Now (let ((x (lambda () 42))) (x)) is actually (let ((x (lambda () 42))) ((get-fn 'x))). See why you need funcall? 02:29:02 masm: it'll take me a while to read this; i need to reformat it, for example; so hang on 02:30:32 hm, so the let names a function x, but the let being lexically scoped (?) does not add x into the hash table? 02:30:53 and therefore that wouldnt work in elisp because get-fn wouldnt return anything for 'x 02:31:25 nono; something is wrong 02:31:30 `let' is not lexically scoped in elisp. 02:31:42 to me, ``funcall'' *is* your get-fn 02:32:18 masm, you probably should say why, instead of asking me, and i'll verify 02:32:31 as im clueless so far 02:32:56 chandler: i'm considering the elisp let again to see if it makes sense against masm's exercise 02:33:40 if the let is not lexically scoped in elisp, then x should become a normal function; it must put x into the hash table; otherwise, what else would it be? 02:34:41 `x' is not bound as a function. There are two tables: one for things bound as functions, and one for other things (which may or may not actually be functions). 02:35:09 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE001cf0f182df-CM001a66682cd4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:49 oh; that's right. so the lambda expression is put into a variable-hash-table and therefore get-fn can't find it; that's why we need funcall :) is that it? funcall somehow... can turn a variable into a function? (because... how would funcall execute it? it must be a builtin thingie) 02:36:00 There is no hash entry for x. (get-fn 'x) fails. But there is a variable that "contains" a function that you can call. But you cannot put the x at the head of the list in that expression or it will be read as (get-fn'x). 02:37:29 dansa: Yes; `funcall' is a builtin thingie. 02:37:59 i see; i suppose scheme is more elegant, then 02:39:45 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:41:11 but you see, scheme is not itself a text editor! :) 02:41:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@208.90.214.102] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:42 and, for the purpose of this argument, we shall assume elisp and emacs are indistinguishable 02:42:15 Can we likewise assume that Scheme and Edwin are indistinguishable? 02:42:20 also, for the purpose of this argument, we may calculate the volume of a zebra, since, ideally, a zebra is spherical in nature... 02:42:34 why not? :) i dont even know what edwin is, though 02:42:49 but the sure thing is the power of deduction of the hypothetical method 02:43:03 ... is immense 02:43:28 *dansa* jokes 02:43:39 guys, thanks for the lecture 02:43:40 Edwin is an Emacs-like editor that's part of MIT Scheme. 02:43:58 like drscheme is an editor that's part of PLT? 02:44:11 Yes, though Edwin is a lot more like Emacs. 02:44:50 well, i have a package installed called mit-scheme; but edwin is command not found 02:45:00 running ubuntu something 02:45:06 %aptitude search mit-scheme 02:45:07 i mit-scheme - MIT/GNU Scheme development environment 02:45:11 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 02:45:53 That's not how you invoke Edwin. See http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/Starting-Edwin.html . 02:45:55 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y9qo7v8 02:45:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:46:37 aha; i see; it blows an error here 02:46:37 %scheme --edwin --edit 02:46:37 Largest address does not fit in datum field of object. 02:46:37 Allocate less space or re-configure without HEAP_IN_LOW_MEMORY. 02:46:46 Strange. 02:46:52 i suppose i'd need to recompile? :) 02:47:05 no worries, tho; im quite happy with emacs 02:47:11 Checkie [i=13719@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 02:47:14 i dont even run mit-scheme really... after i learned about plt 02:47:15 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-105-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:47:47 but sometime... i'll reinstall, compile it myself, or something; just to get to know it 02:49:39 well; im gonna get out; thanks, chandler; talk to you later 02:49:46 -!- dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] 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[n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 12:48:53 age [n=evgeny@189-106-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:32 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:41 Hello. Is there some way to run Scheme code in "jail" - to make it as safe as possible to the system it runs on? Preferably some interpreter written in C. 12:54:22 Local county? Maximum security? Solitary confinement? Off-shore? 12:54:34 As safe as possible -- well don't run it, then 12:55:01 Jafet: I want to build it into an irc bot, if that makes things clearer. 12:55:17 You could look at the ones they have here. 12:55:24 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 12:55:24 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 12:55:24 Jafet: ; Value: 3 12:56:09 Is rudybot's source available? 12:56:35 I would write the interpreter in scheme. Convenience of metacircularity (sp?) and all that. 12:56:42 rudybot: source 12:56:43 mejja: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/commit/ce828d20df9741f16b906ee975415fbe4ec9061b 12:56:50 Also, my bot is in C, so rudybot won't fit 12:56:52 Ah. 12:57:19 Can't your bot delegate to another program? 12:58:10 I guess I can make it do that. So that's one possible way - to run a standalone scheme interpreter. 12:58:36 It depends on what you mean by "scheme". 12:59:04 It's very easy to sandbox the core language. 12:59:10 xwl [n=user@125.34.171.221] has joined #scheme 12:59:42 That is what I need. 13:01:02 Aha, I see now. Thanks. 13:13:43 incubot: (load "/etc/passwd") 13:13:43 Error: (open-input-file) can not open file - No such file or directory: "/etc/passwd" 13:16:41 Do not meddle in the affairs of chroot, for it is subtle and quick to breaking 13:31:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.211] has quit ["HNY"] 13:31:29 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:59 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:55:44 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:26 abbe [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has joined #scheme 14:08:00 awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:10:42 awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 14:14:22 -!- awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:16:24 awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:16:55 awarrington___ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 14:18:40 awarrington____ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:38 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:24:33 -!- awarrington [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:10 -!- age [n=evgeny@189-106-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:20 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:25:51 awarrington [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:28:32 age [n=evgeny@119-105-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:05 awarrington_____ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 14:32:32 -!- awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:28 awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 14:33:36 -!- awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:09 -!- x2cast2 [n=alvaro@153.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:59 -!- awarrington___ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:39 awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:42:00 -!- awarrington____ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:34 Hum... isn't there a predefined pattern in PLT's match for (? (lambda (x) (equal? x )) ? 14:46:42 -!- awarrington [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:31 -!- awarrington_____ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:10 x2cast2 [n=alvaro@37.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:52:53 -!- awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:14:48 age_ [n=evgeny@102-73-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:49 irc2samus [n=samus@static-200-71-6-99.techtel.com.uy] has joined #scheme 15:22:31 mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 15:24:56 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.171.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:41 -!- age [n=evgeny@119-105-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:47 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:31:59 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:37:14 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 15:40:31 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-088-067-190-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 15:42:27 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-13.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:50:47 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:00 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:53:53 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:56:07 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:14 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 16:00:08 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb121-6-175-80.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:04 lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-124.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 16:06:00 age [n=evgeny@2-195-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:56 -!- mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 16:15:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:15 -!- age_ [n=evgeny@102-73-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:51 mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:19 -!- mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:30:56 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 16:41:06 y f 16:41:11 oops 16:41:21 f y f 16:57:38 mmc [n=mima@jarnikova.pescomnet.cz] has joined #scheme 16:58:26 mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 17:04:03 nutmegmagi1 [n=swalters@cpe-72-184-67-49.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:04:43 In PLT, I need to code a macro that expands to different syntax depending on the module being compiled is the "main" (was passed as argument to mzscheme) or was required by some other module. Any ideas? 17:07:00 visof [n=visof@41.238.232.113] has joined #scheme 17:07:07 Hum... thinking of it, that may be impossible to do. 17:07:18 rudybot: eval (call-with-input-file "/etc/passwd" (lambda (ip) (for ([line (in-lines ip)]) (display line)))) 17:07:18 *offby1: error: call-with-input-file: `read' access denied for /etc/passwd 17:07:51 masm1: in these situations, I invoke the name of "eli" 17:08:33 That should be impossible to do, I think. 17:08:42 What about at runtime? 17:08:58 no idea 17:09:40 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 17:16:09 -!- masm1 is now known as masm 17:21:50 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-101-160-3.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:29:50 decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 17:35:41 -!- mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 17:37:14 -!- nutmegmagi1 [n=swalters@cpe-72-184-67-49.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:37:39 yo 17:38:30 ha. someone give me a job doing something other than C or Fortran or C++, or well, python I can take, but man.... 17:39:00 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 17:40:31 no 17:41:06 gah. you guys. spose I need a phd to make it. great... 17:42:35 sorry. depression is getting me. you fools though. bah. you need to unionize or something. stop picking up the slack of the morons just for a paycheck. 17:43:41 mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 17:44:22 nah, I said that wrong. we need to get something going like most of the unions have going 17:45:28 gah. sorry 17:45:43 just hating people or something 17:45:47 oh well 17:45:49 so it goes 17:47:04 I'm ostracized from freenode scheme now. great... 17:47:17 -!- mkts [n=ciaran@5acba9d6.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:46 did I just spell that british style? if so I apologize 17:48:49 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:53 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 17:50:41 *offby1* glances around nervously. 17:51:13 Austra-sized, adj: unusually large, as befits the mythical bigness of all things Australian 17:55:35 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:38 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 17:58:52 HG` [n=HG@xdslef111.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:02:15 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:29 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 18:07:11 -!- age [n=evgeny@2-195-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:22 age [n=evgeny@2-195-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:09:39 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 18:12:18 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 18:12:28 x2cast21 [n=alvaro@181.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:12:31 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:54 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:53 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:19 -!- irc2samus [n=samus@static-200-71-6-99.techtel.com.uy] has quit [] 18:24:27 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:59 Ucbmouse [i=Ucbmouse@pharm163-34.ucsd.edu] has joined #scheme 18:30:06 -!- x2cast2 [n=alvaro@37.23.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:53 Hello: I am trying to find expertise from someone with a background in Scheme to help my son with a college project. 18:32:22 hrm 18:32:32 you are better off just asking your question here directly, honestly 18:33:07 or even better: have your son ask :) 18:33:37 That would be best, thanks. I will contact him and have him log in. 18:33:50 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:06 -!- Ucbmouse [i=Ucbmouse@pharm163-34.ucsd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:08 Ucbmouse [i=Ucbmouse@pharm163-34.ucsd.edu] has joined #scheme 18:34:15 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #scheme 18:34:16 -!- Ucbmouse [i=Ucbmouse@pharm163-34.ucsd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:21 and now we play the waiting game... 18:42:21 -!- decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 18:46:03 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 19:02:00 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-208-79.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:03:25 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 19:04:10 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:54 Hey everyone! 19:05:03 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #scheme 19:05:10 Hello :) 19:06:45 chandler: Are you around? 19:07:21 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:09 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 19:11:39 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:28 ask if he's about. 19:17:50 timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:18:10 Hello 19:20:21 foof` [n=user@FL1-119-238-203-37.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 19:21:20 -!- age [n=evgeny@2-195-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #scheme 19:22:04 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslef111.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:32 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 19:23:44 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-60-113.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:52 chandler: Are you round? Are you a bout? 19:25:23 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:26:52 is he a roundabout? 19:27:10 :) 19:27:46 -!- abbe [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:43 flonum [n=ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has joined #scheme 19:29:01 abbe [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has joined #scheme 19:29:02 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:29:58 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:14 -!- timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has left #scheme 19:34:05 foof: you're the author of chibi-scheme, right? 19:38:54 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-138-152.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:40:37 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:44 francogrex [n=user@141.136-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 19:43:12 Belaf: foof is misconfigured. (bad timezone) 19:43:47 Hi, is there any test suites to find out how much an implementation is compliant to the current standards (is it R6 or something)? 19:43:55 mejja: you mean kind of asleep? 19:44:17 .jp I think 19:45:12 mejja: oh, ok, thanks :) 19:45:37 the reason I ask is that there is a PDA implementation called lispme http://www.lispme.de/lispme/index_en.html. it seems to have very few functions/macros in it (for example defmacro is not there). Would like to know though if it has at least the "minimum required"... 19:46:58 defmacro isn't scheme, is it? 19:47:13 elly: Thank goodness no. 19:47:20 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-192.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:47:46 francogrex: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scm/r4rstest.scm 19:47:54 rudybot: eval (define defmacro 42) 19:47:54 masm: your r5rs sandbox is ready 19:48:03 rudybot: eval defmacro 19:48:03 masm: ; Value: 42 19:50:00 mejja: thanks, but isn't there already an R5rs? 19:51:00 francogrex: There's already and R6RS.... 19:52:18 arcfide: ok, but then I guess the tests are for R4 only? 19:52:44 francogrex: also: http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php 19:53:05 sorry, http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.scm 19:56:52 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 19:57:56 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:03:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:04:04 -!- dutchie [n=josh@pdpc/supporter/student/dutchie] has left #scheme 20:05:13 mejja ok that seems ok the R5rs tests; newer. However I'm surprised compared to the R4 test suit, the R5 is much smaller! 20:05:50 or shoukd one "add" the R5 to the R4 20:05:58 aintme [n=user@72.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:07:55 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:08:31 incubot: entrance to college, traditionally, marks the point where you should stop asking your mom for help with your homework 20:08:39 traditionally gelatin was made from hooves, which is why vegans won't touch jellied foods unless they know it's safe 20:08:57 point taken 20:11:34 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-56-241.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:02 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-56-244.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:12:04 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:16:29 -!- francogrex [n=user@141.136-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:08 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:52 abbe_ [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has joined #scheme 20:24:56 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:31 -!- abbe [n=abbe@2001:470:f803:8000:0:0:0:1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:50 -!- abbe_ is now known as abbe 20:26:05 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["leaving"] 20:31:36 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:32:19 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.232.113] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:34 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:32:49 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:03 -!- flonum [n=ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has left #scheme 20:36:16 http://c-jump.com/ O_O 20:37:51 incubot: Skiing and snowboarding is a perfect programming analogy. 20:37:54 Snowboarding death-defyingly just ahead of the avalanche and all that. 20:44:53 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:45:09 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:22 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:47:19 -!- aintme [n=user@72.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:47:45 http://i.imgur.com/pG3q7.jpg 20:49:44 arcfide [n=arcfide@fl-76-2-117-102.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:10 http://i.imgur.com/P9RnL.jpg (extended version) 20:55:19 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 20:59:42 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg (Lisp) 21:03:31 LOL 21:12:16 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:12:28 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:50 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 21:13:11 -!- MichaelRaskin 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[n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:17:41 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 23:22:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:23:59 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 23:25:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:27:17 dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 23:31:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.255.237] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:40:52 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:51 chturne [n=charles@host217-42-5-235.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:46:11 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:19 chturne pasted "SICP generic arithmetic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92850 23:51:02 Hi, is anyone familiar with the generic arithmetic example from SICP? 23:54:01 chturne: I'm not sure that you should be able to get the real-part and the imaginary-part from a number defined using polar magnitude and angles. 23:54:08 Are you sure that this is a supported feature? 23:54:19 If you try to arithmetic with polar numbers, does this work? 23:54:29 (define (real-part z) (* (magnitude z) (cos (angle z)))) 23:54:31 Does it work if you combine the polar and the regular values? 23:54:52 chturne: Do you see that defined anywhere in the package? 23:55:07 arcfide: Yes, I've defined it in the polar-package 23:55:07 If they haven't defined it, that's likely the problem. if you see that this is defined somewhere, then this probably is a bug of some sort. 23:55:45 arcfide: Yes, I believe it is a bug, although I've scrached my head for hours trying to find out whats wrong. Seeking help. 23:57:03 Does it work combining regular and ploar? Not sure what you mean arcfide. 23:57:07 *polar 23:59:19 In this system, polar and rectangular numbers are independent. I may say (add (complex-defined-with-polar) (complex-defined-with-rectangular)) and should get back the correct result. Although this doesn't work with my package, since REAL-PART and IMAG-PART are needed for the ADD procedure to work. Mathematically, there obviously is nothing stopping me from defining such procedures over complex numbers defined with a magnitu