00:00:29 jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 00:01:10 copumpkin__ [n=copumpki@94.163.144.93] has joined #scheme 00:02:12 hi all 00:04:59 jengle pasted "Nested loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92605 00:05:09 i wrote this procedure to find the maximum sum of the digits of a^b, where a, b < 100. i'm still a beginner when it comes to scheme, so i'm wondering if there isn't a clearer way to write this? here's the paste: 00:06:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92605 00:07:43 heh 00:08:05 pretty sure I did that somewhere in http://github.com/offby1/project-euler 00:08:51 -!- copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.162.10.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:10:42 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.162.29.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:10:43 -!- copumpkin__ is now known as copumpkin 00:10:43 i really had some trouble doing a basic nested loop 00:10:50 jengle: well, that _sounds_ like a Project Euler problem; is it? 00:11:10 jengle: there are certainly nice built-in things that will make that easier, but they tend to be nonstandar.d 00:11:12 nonstandard. 00:12:03 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:56 jengle: must a and b differ? 00:20:19 jengle: http://gist.github.com/263433 00:23:14 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:43 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:58:05 foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-60-113.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 01:01:08 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 01:02:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 01:20:43 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-201-21.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:33:21 -!- alexcg [n=alexande@77.247.173.52] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:34:10 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:51 -!- dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:01:07 hi, why for puzzle, queens, etc. solvings, Scheme is hundred of times slower than Java? 02:01:41 actually, the best scheme compilers are faster than java 02:01:51 eldragon: That depends on which implementation you use. :-P 02:03:51 yr doin it rong 02:04:56 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:07:18 Rakko [n=rakko@71-13-148-220.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:08:05 What is the practical difference between the MIT Scheme written in Scheme and the one written in C (apart from the first one requiring Scheme to build)? 02:09:49 I.e. do they have different capabilities, or do programs running on them behave a little differently? 02:15:30 Also, I'm experimenting with different builds on my Mac. The binary that I got from the web site is a little different from the MacPorts version, in that Edwin always opens in an X window, and the program always acts like --edwin was supplied on the command line. Does anyone know what configure options were used in the Mac binary? 02:17:32 *offby1* stares blankly 02:17:58 it's my problem, the inefficiency of a complex application once made the integration of macroprocessor + davis-putnam-loveland-loleidontremember + untyped lambda calculus interpreter + CAS algebra, the major part of inefficiency is brough to DPLL over scheme, iirc. 02:20:18 I'm lost :) 02:23:30 Rakko: Youc ame late to the discussion 02:25:36 I guess 02:27:53 *offby1* 's head spins 02:30:05 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 02:31:08 So what's the difference between MIT Scheme-Scheme and MIT Scheme-C, once you get them built? 02:32:16 Rakko: I would presume (speaking as someone who's never used MIT Scheme and knows nothing about it), that the latter is used to bootstrap a build of the former. 02:33:04 I would think so too, but it looks like one is actually written in Scheme and the other in C -- two different implementations 02:33:45 Of course. But I'd think that the C version is just there for people who don't have a Scheme implementation to start with, so they have something to use to build the Scheme version. 02:34:10 right 02:34:24 Basically what I wonder is whether it's worth building the Scheme one. 02:34:51 *cky* browses the docs to see if I find any answers to that question. :-P 02:34:56 Oh, unless the two are complementary. I'm confused. 02:35:11 "Note that you cannot build a working system from the source unless you have a working MIT/GNU Scheme compiler to do the compilation. (This doesn't apply to the portable C source, which requires only a C compiler.)" 02:35:48 Right, so then the C version is definitely for bootstrapping purposes, and you should then use that to build the "real" Scheme version. 02:36:10 I built the C one with MacPorts, but I'm unsure whether it also built the Scheme one. Perhaps so, since the C source package is twice as big. 02:36:56 Hmm, I definitely cannot answer that question, as I do not have a Mac and cannot play with MacPorts. :-P 02:39:33 Does anyone here use MIT? I have a few other questions about it. 02:41:43 cky: I do know that, when I invoked each version of MIT Scheme, it gave different version lines. One of them said it included LIAR; the other one said LIAR-C. That's why I think there might be a lingering difference there. 02:42:32 *nods* 02:47:45 Also, the version I installed as a binary seems to load the Edwin library (and others, like the compiler) by default, but the version I compiled myself requires the --edwin option for that. I wonder about the configure option differences. 02:55:27 -!- RX1 [n=kvirc@93-103-186-1.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has left #scheme 02:59:58 -!- outworlder [n=user@c-76-17-138-17.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:02:58 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:11 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:09:01 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:09:08 Rakko, I may be able to answer your questions; give me a moment to read them. 03:11:40 Rakko, the `portable C distribution' differs from the native-code distributions (and, more generally, Scheme with the C back differs from Scheme with the native back ends) in the way that the compiler turns Scheme code into executable machine code. With the native back end, the compiler generates executable machine code itself; with the C back end, the compiler generates portable C code, which it then runs through a C compiler to generate dynami 03:14:19 The majority of MIT Scheme is written in Scheme -- there are two main parts to MIT Scheme, the part written in Scheme and the part called the `microcode' which talks with the host operating system and acts as a virtual machine on which the Scheme code runs. The microcode has at least two implementations, one written in C (which is what you'll find at mit-scheme.org) and one written in C# (which is a side project by Joe Marshall). 03:16:19 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 03:18:57 If you want to compile MIT Scheme entirely from its source code, you need both a C compiler, to compile the microcode, and an existing MIT Scheme installation, to compile the Scheme code. On the other hand, if you just want to build Scheme for an operating system for which binaries are not supplied, but on a machine for which binaries are supplied, all you need is a C compiler to compile the microcode -- the compiled Scheme code is OS-independen 03:21:50 There are two main user-visible differences between the C back end and the native back ends: (1) Scheme with the C back end runs on pretty much any 32-bit or 64-bit machine with a C compiler and a supported operating system (i.e., most Unices); by contrast, there are presently only x86 and x86-64 native back ends, of which only the x86 one has been released. (2) Where it runs, the native back end is generally faster by a factor of at least two, 03:23:20 Only 2? 03:25:19 OK, there are two more: (3) You can't reload compiled code with the C back end. (4) Images don't include the compiled code with the C back end; instead, you must instruct the image where to find the compiled code to load it when the image is restored. 03:25:34 But those are a little more obscure and less immediately visible than (1) and (2). 03:27:02 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:34:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:38:23 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has joined #scheme 03:38:45 Riastradh: Thanks! 03:39:03 Riastradh: I think I'm missing the ends of some of your lines :/ 03:39:46 Yes...thanks, IRC. 03:39:55 Fortunately, you didn't miss anything important, if the log at tunes.org is accurate. 03:40:12 Oh, ok. Thanks. 03:40:55 `With the C back end, the compiler generates portable C code, which it then runs through a C compiler to generate dynamically loadable objects containing the executable machine code.' 03:41:05 `...-- the compiled Scheme code is OS-independent.' 03:41:35 `Where it runs, the native back end is generally faster by a factor of at least two, and is much quicker to build.' 03:42:11 MacPorts appears to have last year's snapshot, not this year's, by the way; and I don't know why it uses the portable C distribution -- maybe for PowerPC support? 03:42:31 Maybe 03:43:19 So the C distribution really is *not* just something that's required before building native? They're completely separate, from the sound of things. 03:43:54 Yes, although the C distribution is the easiest way to port Scheme to, or to cross-compile Scheme for, a new machine. 03:46:14 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:46:15 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:17 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:50:30 It seems to me that there should be one tarball you can grab that will 1) compile the C-based environment and 2) use the C-based one to compile the native one. 03:51:32 There's not much sense in having users go to that trouble -- really, that needs to happen only when porting the compiler to a new machine. 03:52:16 OK. But there are Gentoo and BSD people who like to compile everything themselves from scratch :) 03:52:24 I don't personally see the point of that, though. 03:52:26 However, it would be worthwhile to distribute the compiled Scheme code for each supported machine, without the compiled microcode. 03:52:36 tjafk [n=timj@e176217030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:12 (That would eliminate some pretty silly parts of .) 03:53:15 which code for each supported machine are you referring to? 03:53:16 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:58 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176197107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:54:44 As I mentioned, MIT Scheme has two main parts, the Scheme code and the microcode. The Scheme compiler takes Scheme code as input, and spits out x86 code, or x86-64 code, &c., in files with names that typically end in `.com'. These files are OS-independent, but what you need to run them is the microcode, which is OS-dependent. 03:54:46 I'm still trying to wrap my head around what microcode is and how the rest of the code is machine-dependent but OS-independent 03:54:59 oh, that's what .com is 03:55:18 so they're not quite like java classes but also not like windows exes 03:55:46 The microcode (or at least, one implementation of it) is a C program that knows how to call the local operating system's system calls and libraries just like any C program does, and that knows how to load and execute the compiled code in .com files. 03:57:05 ok. 03:57:17 The microcode provides a common interface to the system calls, in the form of Scheme primitives, which the compiled Scheme code calls. 03:57:30 there seems to be a small bug in the 20080130 C tarball -- if you run ./configure when the file compiler/make.com already exists, configure fails. And it doesn't even tell you what directory it's in. 03:59:08 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has joined #scheme 03:59:27 Yes... I finally got around to fixing that a few weeks ago -- although for the C tarball, the set of states it can get into is kind of hairy, and you're not supposed to run the configure script yourself. 04:00:54 what are you supposed to do to start? 04:00:57 just make? 04:01:17 You're supposed to do whatever says. 04:01:49 ah, liarc 04:01:50 thanks 04:02:28 etc/make-liarc.sh is a little involved -- it has to run configure twice, with different arguments, in order to build a bootstrapping compiler and then use that to compile the rest of the code for real. 04:03:06 Merry Christmas, all. 04:03:07 :) 04:03:09 oh! so that sounds like what I was suggesting. 04:03:13 Thanks. You too! 04:03:26 Not quite, Rakko. What you get as the final result is still Scheme with the C back end. 04:03:31 oh 04:04:40 But when I did it the MacPorts way -- which runs configure -- it *seemed* to produce the compiler. I don't know for sure, since I am an extreme newbie at Scheme, but the environment did print out "LIAR/C" when started with the --edwin flag 04:04:50 Right -- that's LIAR, with the C back end. 04:05:11 If the image contained LIAR with, say, the i386 back end, it would say `LIAR/i386' instead. 04:05:18 But how did it compile LIAR if it didn't go through configure twice? 04:06:11 I think I will stick to the 2009 binary, but it's really interesting learning this stuff 04:06:27 As far as I can tell, the portfile just instructs MacPorts to run etc/make-liarc.sh as suggests. 04:06:41 hey, Riastradh - I read a lot more on CL's interning of symbols and suchlike. 04:07:43 -!- ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:14 Riastradh: Ah! Yes, I see that now. "use_configure no" and "build.cmd etc/make-liarc.sh" 04:08:51 It has no maintainer, which makes me wonder who created the port in the first place. 04:09:04 I believe RyanDesign did. 04:09:54 Nobody told us first. 04:10:08 Uh oh :) 04:10:19 04:10:28 And hey, Riastradh - You use OSX, right? 04:10:48 I was wondering if you knew of a way to increase OSX's font size, system-wide. I have kind of bad eyesight, can't seem to find any real way to increase the font sizes :( 04:10:50 Yes, elderK, as well as NetBSD and various GNUoid/Linuxoid systems. 04:12:05 :) 04:12:32 No, I'm afraid not... All I'm aware of is the zoom feature. 04:12:33 Apple makes that tough and error-prone. 04:12:57 I think maybe TinkerTool can do it (or could; I haven't used it since Tiger) 04:13:18 Aye, I never had any luck with Tinkertool or Cilk. 04:13:49 I guess I'll readjust and get used to it in time, just, when I'm on Linux or Windows, I pump up the text size. 04:13:57 Have to get used to lil' iddy biddy fonts again. 04:14:16 or use low res *shudder* 04:14:24 *elderK* shudders too 04:14:41 my poor boss has her macbook pro's resolution set so low that sometimes she opens programs whose windows don't fit fully on the screen 04:14:58 Aye, sounds familiar. 04:15:11 It's something I can't believe OSX doesn't do... you know? 04:15:18 You'd think changing font sizes, etc, would be a no-brainer. 04:15:55 Yeah 04:16:09 I know how to do it in GNU Emacs, Edwin, rxvt, and OmniWeb, and that covers most of what I use. 04:16:27 I can increase the size for a few Apps I use, 04:16:35 but anything drawn using Cocoa or whatever, 04:16:38 is all small. 04:16:47 or, at least, whatever's drawn using system defaults. 04:16:48 Interface Builder GUIs are very pixel-dependent, unfortunately :( 04:17:11 I guess this is the price for a proprietary NIX :P 04:17:15 or, nixish system. 04:17:19 So things would have to be laid out anew with bigger or smaller fonts 04:17:34 Reason I'm using OSX over say, Windows 7, is for the unix environment. 04:17:43 Cygwin, MSYS on WIndows, man. I'd rather not even bother. 04:18:06 I have both of those on my flash drive 04:18:15 Cygwin at least is terribly slow running off it 04:18:34 elderK, you don't have to say `nix' or `*nix' or anything; the trademark `Unix' does apply to Mac OS X... 04:18:37 I use it at work if I want to do something Unixy like renaming a bunch of files 04:19:21 Rakko, Cygwin is terribly slow, anyway you slice it 04:19:22 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:19:33 s/Cygwin/Windows/ 04:19:48 offby1: I was quite surprised by Win7, tbh. 04:19:53 It was a lot better than I expected it would be. 04:20:25 :P I probably lose cred for that. 04:20:26 But, eh 04:21:32 Riastradh: Perhaps you know the answer to this one: When I use my MacPorts Scheme, Edwin and LIAR (and some other things, I forget which) are not loaded unless I specify --edwin. But in the binary distro, they are. Would that be just because the binary distro is newer? 04:21:54 Probably. At some point, Chris changed the default band to be all.com, rather than runtime.com. 04:22:00 That might have happened last year; I don't remember. 04:22:30 elderK: I don't find Cygwin running on a HD to be that slow. Slower than Linux, yeah, but not that bad. But when I ran my batch rename script off my flash drive, it was like watching a directory listing on a Commodore 64 ;) 04:22:51 This is mentioned in . 04:23:05 Ok. And finally, in the binary distro, (edit) opens up an X windows; in the MacPorts one, it uses the terminal. 04:23:24 hahaha Rakko :D 04:23:34 *eli* is surprised at how much Apple pisses over people who calmly say that it's just rain 04:23:51 Or vice versa, eli 04:24:02 eli: I'll be honest and say, I'm really, really disappointed with Apple. 04:24:11 I bought the Apple machine after hearing good things, good reviews, etc. 04:24:19 My own fault for not say, doing a trial with a Hackintosh or something. 04:24:27 Personally, I don't use a mac, but things like that are just infuriating, IMO. 04:24:27 Hmm. 04:24:31 Sure, I have the freedom to run anything else, too. 04:24:33 Not sure, Rakko. 04:24:40 aye, eli. 04:24:44 I love my machine and the OS, but yeah, Apple is scarcely better than MS. 04:24:55 I'd say they aren't, really Rakko. 04:25:06 at least with Windows, you have more freedom in what you can change... 04:25:13 or god forbid, change the font sizes... 04:25:25 Do you by any chance have src/microcode/config.log from when you built it, Rakko? 04:25:31 I give MS a little more respect nowadays than I used to. 04:25:40 Rakko: My conclusion after having a few OSX-encounters is that we're definitely lucky that MS ended up being the huge monopoly, thigs would be way worse with Apple in that position. 04:25:46 Riastradh: No... I just blew all my build files away today :/ 04:26:06 Preview is a nice little app that I adore more than I should :) Having a PDF/PS reader all in one is handy. 04:26:15 There was probably some problem with linking against the X11 libraries. 04:26:22 If you evaluate (edit 'x), what happens? 04:26:23 where as with Windows, you need to pay for stupid PS readers, or, you need to use Ghostscript, Ghostview, etc. 04:26:38 I also uninstalled the package :( 04:26:43 OK. 04:26:47 I will have to try it after rebuilding 04:26:50 Don't worry about it, then. 04:26:56 But the port required a bunch of X libs, so it *should* work. 04:27:04 It's not worth the CPU cycles and heat the process will generate. 04:27:17 Preview is nice, but I hate its scrolling behavior since 10.5. 04:27:24 :) Also glad that Blender works properly on OSX again, well, cooperates with Intel GMAX3100. 04:27:33 Snow Leopard at least fixed that old problem. 04:27:34 I'm going to rebuild anyway, for fun 04:29:20 Sucks... X-Chat Aqua doesn't see URLs enclosed in <> as clickable. 04:32:56 Blender Blending Rodriguez 04:33:18 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.163.41.120] has joined #scheme 04:33:31 *Rakko* wonders if he could make a personal portfile for the new snapshot :) 04:34:13 I forgot to mention that the old port won't even build out of the box on Leopard or Snow Leopard 04:34:20 Oh? What goes wrong? 04:34:43 It sets SDKROOT to point at the Tiger SDK, but seems to use the default gcc, which is 4.2 04:34:50 4.2 does not work with the Tiger SDK 04:35:18 I see. More recent versions use a more appropriate SDK, I believe. 04:35:33 The binary download is compiled for Leopard 04:41:39 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:41 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-118-188.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:53 By the way, are you on an x86-64 machine? 04:42:03 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:42:45 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:47:39 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-1-101.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:47:59 No 04:48:41 I guess x64 support isn't released? 04:50:33 It will be included in the next snapshot. 04:50:59 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:52:47 Happy Yule #scheme! 04:52:57 thanky 04:53:00 you too! 04:53:22 Riastradh: OK. In the meantime, the x86-32 version would run on x86-64 anyway, right? 04:53:39 If you have 32-bit libraries available (which is the probably case on Mac OS X), yes. 04:53:43 OK. 04:54:46 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.144.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:47 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 04:59:18 Riastradh: You ever had any issues deleting files from a USB pendrive on OSX? 04:59:25 No. 04:59:28 o_O I empty ze trashcan but... it never le empties!? 05:00:07 I seldom use the Finder's trash can. 05:00:21 Aye and fair enough 05:04:10 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:37 elderK: You empty it while the drive is plugged in, I hope? LOL 05:04:47 Of course. 05:04:53 As soon as you eject the drive, the trash becomes empty. 05:04:58 as soon as you plug it back in, the trash is in the can... 05:05:07 I solved it, just nuked .Trashes, etc. 05:05:11 from the external hdd. 05:05:32 :P Got to hate the resource forks too, scattered around non-HFS drives. 05:05:36 ._.blablabla 05:05:59 ._. 05:06:03 I like that 05:06:12 lol 05:06:33 Kind of apt emoticon really. 05:06:34 :P 05:06:44 Riastradh: Well, now I'm running into a problem generating compiler/machines/i386/assmd.c 05:07:17 But this is the 2008 one so I think I'll just give up on it 05:10:58 Hmm. Looks like this tarball is looking for files in /opt/local, which is where MacPorts puts things. Looks like I got things muddled up. 05:13:42 Yes, it's not worth your time at all to worry about the 2008 snapshot. 05:14:19 I had hoped to be able to improve on the existing portfile without upgrading the snapshot 05:14:23 But that's futile 05:17:53 To be honest, I think you'd be better off adapting the pkgsrc descriptions at . 05:21:44 pkgsrc... that's openbsd or something, isn't it? 05:21:57 It originated from NetBSD, but it runs on many platforms, of which Mac OS X is one. 05:22:14 Perhaps one of these days I shall attempt to run it on Mac OS X. I gave up on using MacPorts for much a while ago. 05:28:09 Aye, 05:28:15 MacPorts is pretty crap, imo. 05:28:20 I generally just build everything I need from source. 05:28:29 Even though it can be a pretty major hassle at times. 05:35:40 My experience with pkgsrc on NetBSD has been reasonably positive, for two reasons: (1) I have a clearer idea of how it works, and thus can fix problems more readily. (2) I can build and test everything in clean chroot environments (including the window system), and thereby avoid sticky situations early. 05:36:14 Many sticky situations, anyway; not all, of course. 05:39:45 I like dpkg/apt-get 05:41:14 argh 05:41:27 my mom's cat spilled wine all over the top and bottom of her netbook 05:41:44 Take the battery out. 05:42:13 ok 05:42:34 (and unplug it, and generally remove any sources of power) 05:43:30 Then find some distilled water or isopropanol (or both) to wipe it down with. 05:45:17 Isopropanol will evaporate faster, but if there's anything on it that is soluble in water but not in alcohol, you'll want to use water, of course. 05:45:38 I don't actually think any got inside 05:45:57 I dunno what alcohol is soluble in 05:46:01 Thanks for the tips though 05:47:02 ...alcohol is a solvent 05:47:36 Hum, is wine conductive? 05:48:02 If there is even the slighest chance that any of it got onto any of the electrical components, the very first thing you should do is to remove the power sources, or else the components are apt to corrode very quickly -- and leave the machine anywhere from a working, but subtly flakey, state, to a brick. 05:48:49 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:15 Then you can take the time to ascertain whether any of the wine really did get into the case, and clean it off at your leisure. 05:49:49 Yeah. I did just unplug it. Unfortunately I took the time to properly shut it down, but I guess I had already waited several minutes, so whatever. 05:50:58 Chances are, your operating system has a journalled file system, these days, and the last few milliseconds of disk activity matter less to you than whether your netbook is a computing machine or a brick. 05:52:17 Reasonable editors such as GNU Emacs and Edwin will periodically autosave the contents of modified buffers to the disk so that you can recover most of your session when the machine boots back up -- if it does. 05:52:54 true 05:53:18 Well, the hard disk won't corrode that easily 05:53:53 Even if the disk doesn't, there are plenty of other components inside the case that will. 05:54:07 I don't think my mom uses Emacs or Edwin :) 05:54:10 Those are probably relatively inconsequential 05:55:28 Who knows what might happen if the components inside the case begin to fail? For example, they might cause bogus I/O to be delivered to the disk, corrupting its contents, even if the disk itself is OK. 05:56:11 Then you restore the disk from backup 05:56:18 Backup? Hah 05:56:30 Hahaha, backup. 05:56:40 Seriously, I really should back that up for her. She backs up onto flash drives, but I dunno how much to trust them. 05:57:06 Jafet: even if everything is backed up, if any new content you create is corrupted, the machine is pretty useless, no? 05:57:09 You seem to have a rather glib attitude toward both the state of the machine and the state of the disk, Jafet. 05:57:10 Does X Edwin depend on Xt? I see from config.log that it checked for Xt and didn't find it. 05:58:19 Fortunately, modern consumer products tend to be interchangeable 05:58:49 Not always cheap though 05:58:51 Would you like to pay for a new computer for Rakko's mother, Jafet? 05:58:58 hehe 05:59:25 Why? I didn't spill wine on it. 05:59:33 What's your problem? 06:00:27 Let's just drop it. 06:02:14 Rakko, hmm, I don't see anything related to Xt in the configure script, but I don't know anything about how that part is supposed to work. My config.log doesn't have anything about checking for Xt. 06:03:22 mine is in microcode/ 06:03:27 Right. 06:03:34 in which case I don't know how it relates to edwin 06:03:53 Can you lisppaste the relevant excerpt? Starting with something like `configure:NNNN: checking for Xt'. 06:03:56 lisppaste: url 06:03:56 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 06:04:08 (and ending with `configure:NNNN: result: no') 06:04:15 k 06:06:43 it actually doesn't say exactly "checking for [lib|-l]Xt" 06:07:26 oh, it's checking for X 06:08:35 Rakko pasted "Checking for X/Xt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92627 06:09:40 so yeah, I'm guessing Xt is required for X 06:10:20 what a fun way to spend Christmas Eve 06:10:22 So hey, Riastradh, out of curiosity, why do you use OSX? 06:10:32 Just for convenience or? 06:11:10 :) I saw some screenshots of your devironment - I see that you are still using The X11 emacs? Have you checked out Aquamacs? It's meant to be a pretty decent "OSXification" of Emacs. 06:11:14 I'm not sure though, I've not tried it :) 06:11:25 (I'm not an emacs fun - yeah, I know, I'm a heretic!) 06:11:25 :) 06:11:26 ooh... macports isn't case-sensitive 06:11:46 elderK: I will have to check Aquamacs out. 06:12:01 Rakko, do you have the X11 SDK installed on Mac OS X? MacPorts does its own thing about X11, which MIT Scheme will not look for unless instructed so explicitly. 06:12:25 I'd be keen to hear your opinion of hte port, Rakko. 06:12:38 I tend to setup a little devironment for myself, too, on OSX. 06:12:43 Using X11 and such :) 06:12:50 elderK, because it's what came on this MacBook, and because it serves my needs without getting too much in my way, which is more than I can say for any other operating system I am acquainted with. 06:13:02 I hear you, Ria. 06:13:09 *Riastradh: 06:13:27 Same deal here really, it's the only OS that @!#$s me around the least. 06:13:41 and doesn't require an age to get to a comfortableish with. 06:13:49 I do have X11 SDK, and I also have *some* MacPorts X libs... although I see now that Xt was not included as a dependency. 06:14:02 Pretty much every WM on UNIX bugs me in some crucial way. 06:14:04 I don't use Aquamacs because I don't want Emacs to be an Aqua application; I want Emacs to be Emacs. That constraint implies using either Carbon/Cocoa Emacs, not Aquamacs, or X11 Emacs. Using X11 Emacs puts all my terminals and Emacs frames in the same Expose instance. 06:14:13 I love Openbox, elderK 06:14:36 I used to worship Blackbox back in 2k2 :) 06:14:57 If Aquamacs is anything like OpenOffice.org for Mac (or NeoOffice/J), it must be a horrible mishmash 06:15:01 Under NetBSD I use openbox. I wish it had Expose, and I haven't figured out how minimization/iconification is supposed to work; otherwise, it does not get in my way. 06:15:24 Riastradh: What don't you get about minimization? 06:15:25 Exposé is pretty useful, once you get into the habit of actually using it. 06:15:39 I just dislike how my macbook seems to struggle with Expose... 06:16:01 Riastradh: Have you got Snow Leopard? It has some pretty nice enhancements for the Dock - pretty much the killer reason for my upgrading. 06:16:29 Rakko, minimization is fine and dandy, but I never found (after not looking very hard) how to unminimize/deiconify the window afterward. 06:16:51 whee 06:16:54 happy christmas, #scheme :) 06:16:57 Riastradh: Oh! Middle-click the root window for a list of minimized windows. 06:17:00 :) MErry Christmas, elly! 06:17:04 One of my favorite things about it. 06:17:05 elderK, no, I'm still running Leopard. Snow Leopard seems to have totally broken Expose. 06:17:11 Rakko, what is this `middle-click' of which you speak? 06:17:15 Broken, how do you mean, Riastradh? 06:17:16 Riastradh: hehehe 06:17:45 I don't see any speed improvements whatsoever with SL. Quite a few bugs, instead. 06:18:13 elderK, under Snow Leopard, Expose windows are no longer to scale. 06:18:45 Yeah, Riastradh... that annoys me a little (though I do prefer the more orderly appearance, overall) 06:18:45 Aye. The quality of the windows in Exposè seems worse, too. 06:18:50 like, the scaled down images. 06:19:01 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 06:19:12 Did you guys notice that? 06:19:18 No. 06:19:46 Where is the screenshot of Riastradh's devironment? 06:19:47 Consequently, Snow Leopard's Expose (it's `Exposé', not `Exposè') lacks precisely what made Expose useful, namely clear visual indication of which window is which. 06:19:54 somewhere on mumble.net 06:20:01 I was just poking about and I saw some of his shots. 06:20:08 Along with a functional programming tshirt, iirc. 06:20:11 or a schemeshirt. I forget :) 06:20:27 aye, Riastradh. How did you get the other accent? 06:20:32 é 06:20:34 aha, there we go. 06:20:54 Under Mac OS X, `Opt-e e' yields é. 06:20:58 Fun fact: Irish uses é. Scots Gaelic uses è. 06:22:54 :D 06:23:00 I love odd tidbits of information. 06:23:13 Are you using UTF-8? 06:23:25 I think so, foof. 06:23:38 Hmmm... 06:24:03 LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8" 06:25:46 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:58 Would you mind sending that character again? 06:26:02 é 06:26:07 dang 06:26:18 Once more? :) 06:26:26 Hey Alex! 06:26:29 Rakko, returning to X11 and MIT Scheme, what version of Scheme are you configuring? 06:26:30 hey 06:26:35 é 06:26:38 The 20090107 snapshot? 06:26:59 *sigh* 06:27:01 I'm sorry to say I'm still wasting time with the 2008 one :/ 06:27:17 OK. Just fetch the 20090107 one; forget about the 2008 one. 06:27:23 I know, I know ;) 06:27:40 Rakko: You ever wish OSX would allow you more than 8 spaces? :P 06:27:46 er, 9 spaces. 06:27:59 Basically what I'm trying to find out now is whether my build will come out the same as the port one. Out of curiosity. 06:28:22 I get so sidetracked with investigating silly irrelevant things like that. Sorry I took your time asking about it. 06:28:30 elderK: I don't even use Spaces! 06:28:42 Really? I can't live without it :) 06:28:43 The maximum here appears to be sixteen, elderK. 06:28:56 really, Riastradh :O Lucky 06:28:58 I used desktops sparingly on Linux. Like 3 at most. 06:29:21 But I prefer OS X's division of windows into apps 06:29:26 Riastradh: My bad, you're right. 06:36:12 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:36:18 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has joined #scheme 06:38:15 Hmm. I stopped make-liarc.sh with ^Z and part of it continued. 06:39:19 You probably stopped some process whose parent didn't actually check its children's status on SIGCHLD but blithely moved on instead... 06:39:42 Tsk tsk tsk 06:40:02 (I don't think many people think much about job control.) 06:40:24 (Personally, I almost never use ^Z, and seldom think about job control myself.) 06:45:44 Wow 06:45:48 I use it all the time 06:47:05 Programs tend to be less unhappy under screen than in the background. 06:49:01 And screen is considerably more flexible. 06:49:33 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 06:49:40 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:33 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 06:50:41 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:47 I don't background stuff often 06:50:50 I just halt it 06:50:55 Anyone here a fan of Board's of Canada? :) 06:51:16 I like boards that come from Canada 06:51:25 -!- Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:40 Generally ^Z puts the foreground process into the background. 06:51:55 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 06:51:59 No, it usually suspends it. SIGSUSP I think. 06:53:38 The signal is SIGTSTP. The behaviour is generally to stop the process (job, really), and if the parent is the shell, then the process will be put into the background while the shell takes the foreground. 06:58:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 07:01:13 Ò_ó 07:04:01 "By default, SIGTSTP causes the process receiving it to stop until a SIGCONT signal is received." 07:04:40 Right. 07:06:22 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-248-149.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:07:35 It stops; under most shells, it doesn't resume -- in the background or not -- until you type bg or fg 07:07:43 or %1 or whatever job spec 07:08:38 Speaking of screen, though, I just rediscovered (on my Jaguar system) the BSD program "window" 07:08:53 Which is like screen, but its windows can be moved and sized arbitrarily and overlap 07:11:20 I tried finding that program on the web for a while but couldn't remember its name 07:11:27 And even if I could have, window is so generic 07:11:52 brb guys, have to reboot. 07:12:09 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 07:12:43 Oh, I see; you're right. 07:14:15 I completely misused the term `background' -- you can surmise from that, no doubt, how often I think about suspended and background jobs. 07:15:57 (To amend my earlier remark: Programs tend to be less unhappy under screen than either suspended or in the background.) 07:16:17 Right. 07:17:50 By contrast, the only programs I can think of that are unhappy under screen are those that talk X and those that are running on AFS and need AFS credentials. 07:24:06 also, I hate when that happens 07:24:13 (when I forget about AFS credentials :() 07:43:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:47:17 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:51 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has joined #scheme 07:52:42 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:56:21 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:53 ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.47] has joined #scheme 08:08:57 night 08:09:34 -!- Rakko [n=rakko@71-13-148-220.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 08:11:44 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 08:13:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-248-149.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:27 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:17:05 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:17:06 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 08:27:36 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-232-243.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:35:07 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:06 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:51 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 08:40:34 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:50:34 Fare [n=Fare@adsl-71-135-52-237.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:22:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-232-243.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:26:35 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 09:29:11 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-127-143.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:29:59 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 09:33:28 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-244.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 09:43:12 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 09:44:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:51:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-244.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:51:36 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:56:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-127-143.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:22 ecomba [n=ecomba@163.Red-83-56-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:50 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-51-16.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:05:08 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:06:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:37 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 10:15:27 -!- ecomba [n=ecomba@163.Red-83-56-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 10:16:08 -!- Fare [n=Fare@adsl-71-135-52-237.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:19:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:54 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-51-16.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:51 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:32:23 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-17-100.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:32:31 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:41:16 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 10:48:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:35 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 11:00:13 visof [n=visof@41.238.234.139] has joined #scheme 11:18:29 So which is it? The manpages state that not only are the timezone parameters to gettimeofday optional and allowed to be NULL, but that the timezone in settimeofday should absolutely be NULL, and any use of any other value is a bug. 11:18:57 However, gcc -Wall complains that a null argument is given where a non-null is required. 11:28:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-17-100.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:26 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:43:17 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 11:57:44 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:07:18 masm [n=masm@bl7-201-21.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:11:49 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-201-21.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:32 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.234.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:05 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:27:14 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:13 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-87-153.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:39:36 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 12:44:17 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:51:57 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has joined #scheme 12:52:46 xwl [n=user@123.115.99.128] has joined #scheme 12:58:42 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-87-153.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:39 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:43 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:57 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:22:09 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:23:15 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:34:55 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:39:52 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:45:40 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:55 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 13:54:10 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has joined #scheme 14:00:56 hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #scheme 14:04:21 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 14:06:30 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-100-207-225.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:11:26 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.163.33.227] has joined #scheme 14:13:53 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:17 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 14:19:00 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.41.120] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:19:01 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 14:20:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:21:21 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:22:30 dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 14:24:20 -!- incubot [n=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:00 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:29:07 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 14:30:02 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:29 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@24-247-77-89.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:47:24 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:53:18 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 14:55:15 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:45 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #scheme 14:58:31 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 14:58:51 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:05 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 15:04:25 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:05:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:21 foof: What OS are you using, and what version? All indications I've read say that the timezone should be null always, too, and gcc -Wall doesn't warn me. I'm using Ubuntu 9.04 (will test on 9.10 now). 15:17:31 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.163.39.145] has joined #scheme 15:18:23 foof: No warnings on Ubuntu 9.10 either. 15:24:41 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.33.227] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:24:42 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 15:24:50 Weird, I can't reproduce it on a small example... 15:25:48 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 15:27:00 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 15:30:17 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-26-137-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:30:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:18 Hmm.... 15:35:44 foof: Are you able to pastebin the warning message you did see, as well as the surrounding code? 15:42:21 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.162.204.37] has joined #scheme 15:42:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.47] has quit ["off"] 15:47:54 -!- Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@CPE0013f7bc6820-CM0013f7bc681c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:48:53 cky: It's in the latest chibi head, when building lib/chibi/time.so. 15:49:05 Okay, I'll test it on my computer. 15:51:39 I'm running Debian sid, FWIW. 15:53:25 Wow, cutting edge! 15:53:27 :-P 15:53:46 If I can't reproduce it on Ubuntu 9.10, I'll install a sid VM just to see. :-P 15:54:17 Where is the Chibi repository, BTW? 15:54:37 I just realised that you said "chibi head", not "chibi release". :-P 15:54:38 hg clone https://chibi-scheme.googlecode.com/hg/ chibi-scheme 15:54:43 Cool, thanks. 15:58:25 copumpkin__ [n=copumpki@94.162.154.12] has joined #scheme 15:58:44 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 16:01:16 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.39.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:17 -!- copumpkin__ is now known as copumpkin 16:04:32 Ah, I see the message on my system: "null argument where non-null required (argument 1)". The argument 1 refers to the timeval, not the timezone, actually. 16:05:00 duh 16:05:22 :) 16:05:23 Hehehe. 16:05:34 So hopefully your stub generator has a way to enforce not-null. :-) 16:05:37 -!- copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.162.204.37] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:00 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-32-76.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:06:20 Actually, I was manually setting an option to allow null there. 16:06:36 (maybe-null timeval) 16:06:38 Oh. Well, at least that's easy to fix then. :-P 16:06:54 Yup, and there goes the warning! 16:07:00 Yay! 16:07:07 Thanks! :) 16:07:12 My pleasure. :-) 16:08:14 But my man page says: 16:08:18 "If either tv or tz is NULL, the corresponding structure is not set or returned." 16:08:43 Implying that in both gettimeofday and settimeofday, either or may be NULL. 16:08:44 Right, but because tz should always be NULL, then it's not sensible for tv to be NULL. :-P 16:09:05 Not sensible, but the wording suggests it's allowed. 16:09:16 But still, self-contradictory manpages for the win. :-) 16:10:29 Of course, I need to rewrite all that anyway. I'm trying to use as much as libc as possible to keep the footprint small, but libc's time handling is garbage. 16:11:09 Well, if you are not restricted to using , but can use clock_gettime/clock_settime instead (requires linking -lrt on glibc), you may have a better time. 16:12:19 But yeah, probably better to write a clean interface first, then implement that with existing functionality, than the other way around. :-) 16:12:24 I want to stick to POSIX compatible. Or at the very least it should work out of the box on Linux and OS X. 16:12:50 clock_gettime/clock_settime is more POSIX-compatible with , from what I gather from the Open Group pages. 16:13:06 ... which made implementing SRFI-27 a bitch, seeing as how OS X doesn't provide random_r. 16:13:21 :-( 16:13:45 eee 16:13:56 I got The {Little,Reasoned,Seasoned} Schemer for christmas :) 16:13:58 (among other things) 16:14:02 elly: Yay! 16:14:20 yay! 16:14:25 Awesome books. 16:14:30 indeed 16:14:53 (also I totally got Roger Zelazny's "Lord of Light") 16:17:29 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:44 elly: highs fives from the Web'rnets! 16:17:48 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:17:49 :) 16:17:54 indeed :) 16:18:01 my parents have good taste in programming books 16:18:31 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:20:00 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90DCA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:41:49 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-99-134.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:44 copumpkin_ [n=copumpki@94.163.16.211] has joined #scheme 16:45:33 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-118-188.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:45:34 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 16:50:19 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.162.154.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:20 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 16:57:53 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-213-68.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 16:58:23 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 17:01:20 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.99.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:55 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90DCA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:18 Mkman [n=tiago@bl5-165-97.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:12:21 hello 17:12:34 what is the best book for a beginner in programming? 17:12:42 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-136-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:13:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-32-76.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:05 -!- dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 17:19:07 Mkman: that's a rather religious question, you might want to try http://www.schemers.org/Documents/#all-texts for an overview 17:19:34 SCIP is well received by many as well as is HTDP 17:19:59 Mkman: depending on your needs YMMV 17:20:34 Yo C-Keen 17:20:45 hi elderK 17:20:52 Mkman: I'd suggest How to design programs first. 17:21:06 You might want to take a peek at Scheme in Fixnum days, if you are more interested in learning the language, first. 17:21:14 If you want to learn Scheme as well as some CS stuff, 17:21:25 SICP = Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is a good place 17:21:54 You might also like to check out "The little Schemer" and "The reasoned Schemer" 17:21:58 and "The seasoned Schemer" 17:22:04 SCIP is for a beginners? 17:22:23 SICP, and no. 17:22:26 But, if you keep at it, 17:22:29 you will crack it. 17:22:32 i am a total beginner in programming 17:22:34 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:22:34 elderK: well yes it is 17:22:42 Really, C-Keen? 17:22:55 I wouldn't have thought SICP to be the best book for absolute beginners. 17:23:06 elderK: it is the textbook for the old introductory CS lecture 17:23:47 aye, that's true. 17:23:53 Go for SICP then, MkMan. 17:24:05 If you've got the bandwidth, check out the SICP videos. 17:24:13 as I said the 'best' is an individual notion 17:24:28 Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has joined #scheme 17:24:29 eu estou a ver o texto mas nao me parece ser para iniciantes 17:24:31 You can't go wrong with SICP, HtDP. 17:24:42 I can see the text but do not seem to be for beginners 17:24:43 It'd probably do you some good too, to get an introductory text on data structures. 17:24:52 It is, MkMan - SICP. 17:25:52 i talk abou variable and this stuff 17:26:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:26:35 farget lol 17:26:40 forget 17:27:00 SICP will walk you through all of htat, 17:27:03 from teh beginning to the end. 17:27:07 you'll learn a lot of interesting things to boot. 17:27:10 Right, C-Keen? 17:27:45 Alternatively, if HtDP and SICP aren't your cup of tea, you could always google for introductory tutorials in say, C or whatever. 17:27:53 But, coming here, I expect you are looking for Scheme. 17:28:33 ok thanks 17:29:48 scheme is a lot of diference between Python ? 17:30:21 depends on how you judge 17:30:26 (+ 137 349) 17:30:28 486 17:30:28 but yeah, mostly, Iguess. 17:30:31 lool 17:30:44 why + come first? 17:31:03 :P read SICP 17:31:04 jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:06 Read about Lisp. 17:31:10 Gain insight. 17:31:11 Learn, grow. 17:31:20 hi all. 17:31:24 Yo jengle. 17:31:27 Merry Christmas, man. 17:31:33 is a good language for start right? 17:31:55 thanks, you too 17:32:11 Any language is a good language, if you learn the principles of programming, ratherthan the language itself, Mkman. 17:32:15 Scheme is as good as any. 17:32:26 ok thanks 17:32:29 -!- Mkman [n=tiago@bl5-165-97.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:32:41 He's so totally not going to stick with Scheme. 17:32:46 lol 17:33:13 i posted the following last night, but the channel was pretty quiet: 17:33:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92605 17:33:48 i'm still new to scheme, and i found it difficult to write a nested loop 17:34:07 i was wondering if there would be any clearer way to write what i pasted above? 17:34:31 Sure. 17:34:32 Mind if I annotate? 17:34:54 I'm going to do a ballpark clean up :) 17:34:56 Just to give yo uan idea. 17:35:05 :) You should look for information on "Named lets" jengle. 17:35:45 also letrec 17:40:45 elderK, go for it, I'd like to see how you'd do it. 17:42:00 I learned some basic scheme from SICP but I don't always know the most clear and efficient way to do things. 17:42:22 so I understand the problem better, 17:42:24 I love scheme, though.. it's a whole different mode of thought from C 17:42:27 "sum of a^b <= 100" 17:42:30 I figure like... 17:42:58 actually, no I don't understand :) 17:43:28 a^0 + a^1 ^ a^2 ............ + b^0 .... b^n ? 17:43:42 no, i'm checking all the values for a < 100 and b < 100 for the maximal sum of the digits of a^b 17:44:25 sum-digits returns the sum of the digits of its argument 17:44:41 1^1, 1^n, 2^1, 2^n (n < 100) 17:44:50 just pushign the numbers, then adding them up at the end. 17:45:31 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.196] has joined #scheme 17:45:41 elderK, i think this will explain better: http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=56 17:49:08 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:53:32 elderK annotated #92605 "letrec" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92605#1 17:54:35 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:50 jengle: Can't h elp you much, because the a^b sums thing I don't quite follow. 17:54:55 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.80.196] has joined #scheme 17:54:57 :) Haven't slept at all. 17:55:04 But, hopefully this will give you an idea of letrec andnamed let. 17:55:08 Sorry, man. 17:55:10 thanks 17:55:35 *elly* was woken by her younger siblings after 3.5 hours of sleep :P 17:55:45 (they are so impatient to get their presents) 17:55:54 hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:59 Aw. 17:56:03 :) Merry Christmas, elly. 17:56:08 And to your siblings, too. 17:56:09 :D 17:57:35 elderK, i'm basically trying to do a nested "for" loop from C 17:58:19 then named let is totally your friend. 17:58:19 :) 17:58:45 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 17:59:15 I'm sorry taht I cannot be more help. 17:59:18 I've bookmarked your paste :) 17:59:24 and, I shall return to it when I have got some sleep. 17:59:28 And thus, regained intelligence :) 17:59:50 As for doing loops the familiar way, ie: not using recursion in syntax, 17:59:56 named let is awesome. 18:00:07 also, although most discourage it's use, you can use the do construct. 18:00:25 R5RS Spec which you can find easily online, or via the scheme wiki, 18:00:41 should give you the information you need to understand the usage of letrec, named let and do 18:00:42 :) 18:00:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-213-68.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:01:22 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 18:02:05 jengle: the idea usually is to give a list or other data structure to a procedure and let it recurse on that until some condition is met (for example the list of things to do is empty) 18:02:21 jengle: nesting that now means basically doing this thing twice 18:03:12 jengle: so you can start by writing two procedures, one for the inner loop. If that works write the second that recurs on its data calling the inner procedure 18:03:43 bbl 18:03:59 thanks 18:04:52 jengle: also ask yourself, what's the ankor for recursion and what's the terminating condition, also what should the procedure return 18:05:11 more often than not the answer becomes self evident 18:05:36 (If you do have the right data structure in mind that is) 18:05:49 This space reserved for jelly stains! 18:05:53 *elly* giggles at The Little Schemer 18:05:59 hahahahaha :) 18:06:01 elly: It gets better. :-P 18:07:21 is there any rule of thumb on when to list operands vertically and when to list them horizontally? 18:09:18 Generally whatever is the most readable, jengle. 18:09:42 I prefer shorter lines, for things to be spaced out somewhat. 18:09:46 You might not :) 18:09:48 It's all up to you. 18:11:45 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Sleep..........."] 18:14:14 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:15:55 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:10 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:19:46 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@bas1-quebec14-1177670875.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:21:34 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-48-197.adsl.snet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:27 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:57 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-136-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:54 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:16 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:35 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-77-24.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:39:27 pbusser [n=Brucio-8@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 18:39:32 Moin moin! 18:39:59 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has joined #scheme 18:43:47 foof: awake? 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21:19:02 is it some scheme implementation by the gnu project? 21:19:14 they seem to have it 21:19:15  Scheme Procedure: strftime format tm 21:19:16  C Function: scm_strftime (format, tm) 21:19:59 seems plt doesnt have it, if you just want that exact format you can build it yourself 21:20:10 but probably someone should add an strftime equivalent at some point 21:20:29 yeah; i wouldnt want to write a particular solution 21:20:42 it's interesting that the plt people haven't missed that function yet 21:21:02 yea haha 21:21:23 i mostly used strftime when writing webapps, so im suprised the web people haven't wanted it 21:21:30 unless I its there somewhere.. 21:22:30 (display (strftime "%Y-%m-%d\n" (localtime (current-time)))) 21:22:32 ooh i wonder if this works 21:22:47 nope 21:22:57 oh its from guile.. 21:23:02 yeah :) 21:27:23 -!- dansa [i=dbastos@dhcp-077-250-091-080.chello.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 21:28:23 jonrafkind: srfi-19 21:29:14 ok, the docs don't lead you there 21:29:27 srfi's aren't searched? 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23:32:17 How'd you guess? 23:32:38 So it wasn't last evening? 23:32:44 last evening 23:32:49 Only according to those heathens on the Gregorian calendar. 23:33:05 why would you care, you god-killer? 23:33:24 Ah, so I don't need to shut off the lights etc, to avoid the horrible carolers that sometimes haunt my street? 23:33:49 *sjamaan* is glad they don't do that around here 23:33:51 too late. We already know where you live. 23:34:38 I'm told there's a powerpoint-like thing in PLT 23:34:49 will it allow me to change the background color from slide to slide? 23:35:00 Fare: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/slideshow/ 23:35:14 eli: thanks! 23:36:17 Fare: Getting things like a changing background color is probably not standard enough to be made explicitly easy, but there are plenty of examples around. 23:37:03 Fare: Here's what it can do if you have enough patience...: http://vimeo.com/6630691 23:37:29 I had a presentation at ILC'09 that I want to re-do for the (SF) Bay Area Lispers, 23:38:02 but at ILC, abawden suggested I should alternate the background color of slides to distinguish the "bad" ones from the "good" ones 23:40:04 (where the point of the talk is how to go from the bad ones to the good ones) 23:41:58 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@94.163.166.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:59 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 23:42:52 sabaking [n=tiago@bl7-2-181.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:42:53 searching the index for "background", I only find set-use-background-frame! which isn't what I want 23:42:54 hello 23:43:11 i want start programming with Scheme, is a good choise? 23:43:47 probably PLT Scheme. 23:43:59 It's a terrible choice. You want to learn to code z80 assembler. 23:44:01 unless you already know programming and have a specific application in mind 23:44:19 Scheme can violate the referencial transparency 23:44:39 caoliver, z80? You're so young. Maybe you meant ENIAC opcodes. 23:44:58 hey caoliver 23:45:30 Hey! I was wondering how you weathered riastradh's complaints. 23:45:47 which complaints? 23:46:03 The begging for weak refs. 23:46:26 oh, it was jcowan who wanted weak refs 23:46:31 I'll add them soon. 23:46:45 R. was all about robust FDs. 23:47:00 Which depended on weak refs. 23:47:38 Actually it's just the integer->fd mapping that requires weak refs. 23:48:05 You can have safely wrapped fd's, and fd->integer but no integer->fd conversions without any weak refs. 23:48:51 I guess I have not that much trouble with files being opaque refs with finalizers. 23:49:18 I had to do that sort of muckity muck for bigloo a long time ago. 23:50:25 Fare: I think that that's what you'd use for that. The list is probably much better than I am. 23:50:32 so, is not a good language for start? 23:51:17 No. Seriously, it's a great language to start, and PLT is a good implementation of it. 23:51:25 the plt-scheme list? 23:51:44 Sorry to tease. 23:51:59 Fare: Yes. 23:52:37 sabaking, Scheme is not bad to start. 23:52:41 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 23:52:51 At some point, I'd recommend you learn assembly and/or FORTH, though 23:52:55 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.88] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:16 but Scheme, particularly the PLT language family, is designed to start 23:53:26 Trouble I find with assy, is that modern processors have rather hairy instruction sets. 23:54:11 caoliver, so start with 6502 assembly :) 23:55:08 Actually, m68k isn't a bad language, and I often regret that Motorola's didn't win back in the 16bit days. 23:55:33 insert CPU into that last sentence where appropriate. 23:57:20 guile> (let ((x 0) (let ((y x)) x)) <-- why is it a livelock?