00:00:48 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:03:44 incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:05:04 -!- ecomba [n=ecomba@223.Red-83-60-207.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 00:10:09 -!- davazp [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:03 towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:15:53 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:09 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 00:24:02 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:20 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 00:27:24 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 00:28:04 -!- wingo [n=wingo@184.Red-81-38-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:31:12 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 00:37:40 -!- towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:40:19 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-rpphlbrguxtwtuov] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:57:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:57:34 davazp [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:36 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:47 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:08:57 towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:12:54 -!- towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #scheme 01:12:59 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-7-230.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:13:18 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:13:42 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 01:14:57 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:19:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:20 Moin people! 01:22:27 davazp` [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:06 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:14 elderK: Hello. 01:26:38 How're you today, arcfide? 01:26:54 Oh, busy busy, :-). I am trying to finish a late end of year project. 01:28:34 elderK: Et vouz? 01:28:52 :) Not bad, I think. 01:29:03 :P Tired, I only let myself have a couple hours sleep. 01:29:12 :P Lately, I've been staying up late, playing with Scheme, reading specs and all. 01:29:22 And, well, I don't want to entirely ruin my sleep pattern :P so, up I am. 01:29:37 Hah. 01:29:45 Sleep patterns. I don't have those. 01:29:49 I lost those a long time ago. 01:30:12 The only thing I have now is, Have time, will slumber. 01:30:42 Aye, I hear you. 01:31:03 With me, I've been kind of nocturnal for a pretty long time. I find I code and learn best in the night. 01:31:13 It's hard to kick that habit, really. like, the late-night-living thing. 01:31:28 :P Man, I have so many damned things on my "to read" list now. 01:31:41 :P too many pages to print. 01:32:05 Actually, when I hacked for a small ISP, having late hours was the only way to avoid support questions. :-( 01:32:18 :( 01:32:27 *elderK* buys both Arcfide and caoliver big, expensive coffees. 01:32:28 :) 01:32:42 *elderK* picks up his own mug, clinks along to some spiritual toast 01:33:07 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:33:37 I have a cup of water heating right now. In a moment I'm going to press some Mexican Yachil. Nice stuff, but does a number on your stomach. 01:33:57 What is Yachil? 01:34:01 I've never heard of it before. 01:34:20 Coffee from the Chiapas highlands. It's a dark big coffee. 01:35:14 Think Sumatra, only more so... much more so. 01:36:00 damn 01:36:03 :) 01:36:12 :P Me, I'm an instant-man. 01:36:12 lol 01:36:35 I think Instant coffee is an acquired taste, becuase, I remember hating it. 01:36:40 nowadays, I don't mind it at all. 01:36:41 I thought that French press would reduce my intake. It just made the spend more time. 01:36:57 I have a "day thing", habit, I buy at least one coffee from a cafe. :P 01:37:53 We've a good roaster and cafe (actually the couple has four branches) here in northern Michigan. 01:38:07 elderK: where are you located? 01:39:48 I avoid coffee, in general, and use tea instead. 01:39:54 Also, what Scheme are you playing with? 01:40:05 -!- davazp [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:11 Hmmm... tea entirely fails to be coffee though. 01:40:43 caoliver: That depends, are you using it to stay awake? I feel much "cleaner" after drinking tea. 01:41:27 I'm in New Zealand, caoliver :) 01:41:42 A city called Dunedin, in the South Island. 01:41:59 Tea? I found Tea ... decent. 01:42:20 It was a lot sweeter to me than coffee, the only thing I didn't much like about Tea was, well, it dried my mouth out way, way more than coffee. 01:42:28 But, that might've just been the tea I had. 01:42:29 *elderK* shrugs 01:42:43 arcfide: I drink it for the taste as well as other reasons. 01:43:02 Tea tastes like strange water to me. 01:43:35 I don't mind tea. Like, if I'm offered it, I'll happily drink it. Or, join someone in drinking tea. 01:43:39 But, you know, my love is coffee. 01:43:50 :P I even have a Cauldrun to brew coffee in :P 01:43:56 The most interesting was Lapsang Souchong, but it still didn't float my boat. 01:43:57 for when I feel like being maniacal and fun 01:43:57 :P 01:44:15 With dry ice fog? 01:44:50 :P I wish. 01:45:13 I have a few funny mugs shaped like odd things or with awesome captions on them 01:45:43 As for Scheme man, atm, I'm still dancing around many implementations. 01:45:51 Still trying to decide which to settle on. 01:46:00 Mostly I use Chicken, Guile and MzScheme. 01:46:15 I prefer Chicken, but Guile is cool in that it's usually always on a NIX system, mostly. 01:46:32 Using MzScheme/PLT on Windows, atm, becuase it was the easiest for me to setup when I was in a lazy mood. 01:47:27 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:39 Guess I'm somewhat warped, as I've got bigloo and stklos here. I used bigloo during my ISP days for systems programming. 01:47:57 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:48:01 I have Gambit, but I've not hacked that much. 01:48:22 I like Puerh tea. 01:48:23 And I hope to stick Chibi into a few odd things here and there. 01:48:52 What kind of sys programming, caoliver? 01:49:04 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49:10 Most system programming I've done is all in C. 01:49:44 Lisp in general is kind of like... my saviour at the moment. Working in C all the time, learning everything I could from it, I don't know - kind of got burned out from coding in general, and C. 01:50:04 spent pretty much the past 5 years coding 24/7 on low-level stuff, should'veb een studying :P 01:50:12 RADIUS auth server. Cybercafe server. Logic was in Scheme with kernel calls vis Bigloo ffi.\ 01:50:19 Lisp has kind of bought back some excitement with programming :) 01:50:36 Concepts, ideas have and are usually always fun. The coding part stopped being fun. So, I'm hoping that L isp will bring back the joy, you know? 01:51:21 Good luck with that, mate! 01:51:40 :) Bigloo, I forget, is that the CLR one? 01:51:44 I've always loved to program, so I am afraid I can't really relate. 01:51:47 Thanks man, I'll need it. 01:52:02 No. Bigloo is a Scheme to C compiler. 01:52:15 It's more that... in that time, I kind of became a crazed perfectionist, that's what killed the joy, rather than C being lame or whatever. 01:52:25 Just, coding became so stressful and pressurized, that it just... killed the fun. 01:52:51 Got way too obsessive about small things, grew bored of the "same old shit" in the language. 01:53:03 But Lisp has excited the hell out of me, just, has me entranced. 01:53:34 Feels good, like old times. You know, where you spend like, HOURS and hours, locked in this happy coding trance, and before you know it - the sun's set... 01:53:58 I think it's a culture (wisdom of the ancients as opposed to drivel of pointy haired bosses) sort of thing. 01:54:46 Aye, I think so too. When I was younger, coding in C and everything generally, was fun. It was like art and exploration, it was all fun. What I built didn't matter as much, or, how "perfect" it was, didn't matter. It was that I got it working, the learning and the challenge, it was just, bliss. 01:55:16 But something happened a few years ago, where, if the code was "beautiful" or "perfect" in function and weirdly enough, appearence, then... it just... was zero fun. 01:55:30 *elderK* shrugs 01:55:33 :P Sorry, I'mr ambling. 01:55:41 S'ok. 01:56:36 Seen this? http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf 01:56:59 Rob Pike's lament about OS research. 01:57:26 Thanks for the link. 01:57:37 See, that's the kind of zone I was working in. 01:57:48 I was doing a bunch of kernel coding, stuff like that. 01:57:51 Like a maniac :P 01:57:57 I think it gets at the general hacker grumpiness about where we are now. 01:58:56 Alan Kay, and Richard Gabriel have some other stuff in that vein. 01:59:32 Totally going to read that paper, btw. 01:59:35 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 01:59:48 Richard Gabriel's stuff (that I've read) is pretty good. 02:00:00 I enjoyed the "Worse is better" essay he did. 02:00:09 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:20 I've never done much kernel space stuff. I suspect with hardware virt, it's not a big deal, but when I started, kernel mistakes were invitations to lose largely. 02:01:55 Also his book "Patterns of Software" has some elaborations of Worse is Better as well as commentary on the state of the software industry in general. (Things haven't changed much. The bling is just much louder.) 02:02:57 My memories of the kernel-time I had, were probably the greatest and oddest ever at the samet ime. 02:03:09 Up until that poitn, I never learned so much, so quickly... and so deeply. 02:03:12 It was insane. 02:03:22 :) 02:05:30 :P crap, I just figured out I could've used an immutable hash, instead of a mutable one. 02:05:31 damn 02:05:31 :P 02:05:50 What are you representing? 02:06:01 Oh, just working on a little structure type macro set. 02:06:13 I'm using a hashtable to manage the fields and suchlike. 02:06:29 It's simplish, no inheritance or whatever, nothing fancy. Just structures. 02:06:35 but, withs ome little touches I thought to be useful. 02:06:52 so, when the structure is defined as it were, it's not like the hash is ever going to be updated. 02:07:12 so, it seems pointless to have a mutable hash. Also, I figure using an immutable hash would add a little self-documentation. 02:07:50 In the function of the macro stuff, it makes no difference, either way. It's just, it feels cleaner... using immutable. 02:07:52 Not sure why :) 02:08:19 Deciding whether to change it all so it does use immutable... I'd have to do a few small changes to how I create the table. 02:08:46 :) Since, so far, it adds entries incrementally as it parses "tag definitions" (field name, predicate, equity test, optional doc string for the field) :) 02:09:13 (and an id, that is used as an index into a vector. An instance of the structure is just a tagged vector) 02:09:18 :) need more coffee, I think :) 02:11:13 More potent than instant! 02:18:42 davazp`` [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:49 -!- davazp`` [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:07 :P caoliver, say what? :P 02:30:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:31:19 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:33:57 -!- davazp` [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:51 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:07 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:39:11 elderK: Is this like structures as in Foreign C Structures or like Scheme records? 02:46:22 what is the most common way to create gui's that will work with scheme? 02:46:31 are there like gtk or qt bindings for plt scheme? 02:49:18 For PLT Scheme there is http://docs.plt-scheme.org/gui/ 02:49:26 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #scheme 02:51:03 emma: What Scheme implementation? 02:53:33 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:54:45 arcfide: well, I intend for it to be structures generally :P 02:54:48 but, it's schemey. 02:55:00 It's pretty similarto SRFI9, just, it has some things I find useful. 02:55:13 It also lets me experiment with the macro system. And generally, helps me learn and have fun :D 02:56:24 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 02:57:23 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-119-241-73-118.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:07 elderK: If you are doing things with records in Scheme, you might not want to be using a hashtable. 03:00:20 Whyfore? 03:00:23 arcfide: plt? 03:00:27 I don't store data in the hash table. 03:00:35 I just use the hashtable so I can translate a field name, to an index. 03:00:36 emma: PLT's GUI system is probably the easiest way to go. 03:00:50 Seemed cleaner than using a giant cond or linearly scanning down a list, like in srfi9 03:01:02 is there any nice way to use scheme server side to interact with a web based gui? 03:01:22 elderK: There are probably better ways to do that. 03:01:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:58 emma: You mean, make a web application in Scheme? 03:02:08 Such as AJAX and all that? 03:02:13 :D would you mind enlightening me, arcfide? 03:02:36 I could create symbols that bind to the field index. 03:02:36 yes, it seems ideal perhaps if scheme could be used to make web applications. At least as the back end. 03:02:39 emma: This is probably close: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/formlets.html 03:02:46 but, that seemd messy, since it'd like, pollute the global namespace. 03:02:57 (brb, grabbing a coffee) 03:03:01 elderK: I find that alists are faster if they are small, and moreover, depending on your interface, it may be possible to do all the name stuff without having to resort to structures like that at all. 03:03:08 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:10 emma: I use Scheme for web applications all the time. 03:03:22 emma: But if you want to do web applications it's best to start here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/continue/ 03:03:22 maybe some way to have scheme on the server side with some nicer way of making the gui in the browswer client side (or not). 03:03:39 emma: I use my own framework written for mod_lisp. 03:03:52 emma: and PLT Scheme has a web server in it, along with lots of other web stuff. 03:04:05 do you use like javascript or ajax, or flash as your client side gui? 03:04:24 emma: I use AJAX if its necessary or useful. 03:05:03 getting scheme to make the gui in the browser sounds like torture but using it as the 'engine' for what's underneith the gui sounds very attractive. 03:05:27 emma: What do you mean getting Scheme to make the GUI? 03:05:37 You mean generating the HTML? 03:05:58 yeah i guess. or make forms or whatever else. 03:06:11 emma: It's very easy to do this in Scheme, and no, it is not painful at all. 03:06:25 Usually, I write all my static pages in something like SXML anyways. 03:06:38 And when I need something generated, I just drop in a little handler to generate it when I need it. 03:07:42 i thought it might be easier and look better if you used javascript or flash to make a gui that sends signals to the scheme that's actually doing the work. 03:08:05 Why not look at the PLT docs that eli pointed you to? 03:08:19 And it doesn't matter what builds the DOM, it'll be as pretty as you make it. 03:08:19 well because im chatting with you, when we are done then i will :) 03:08:24 Flash is annoying as a UI. 03:08:38 google finance uses it. 03:09:19 And why would you generate an entire GUI client side in Javascript when you already know ahead of time what content should be generated? Javascript is fine for *modifying* or altering the DOM tree as necessary during the interaction, but certainly you want the page to be initially rendered server side. 03:09:27 Even if it's through some AJAX. 03:09:34 And even then that's mostly to fill in data. 03:10:01 arcfide: how would you make the interactive graph on this page without flash --- http://www.google.com/finance?q=TSE:.GSPTSE 03:10:42 With JavaScript and Canvas; it's not impossible at all. 03:11:01 The level of interactivity displayed there is really no more than what's present on the pure-HTML/JS Google Maps. 03:11:04 emma: I do not consider Google's use of a technology sufficent to suggest its use in my own work. 03:11:48 Anyways, I ought to get back to work. 03:12:00 In fact, it's actually quite annoying that Google uses Flash there, as Flash interacts badly with mouse wheel scrolling on several platforms. 03:12:22 well that's interesting to know. 03:12:31 i want to eventually make something that's similar to that. 03:12:43 im happy if i don't have to learn flash but could just learn javascript 03:13:16 I've never heard of 'canvas' 03:13:36 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:13:45 You have much to learn, then. 03:14:16 Ooh, here's a nice example: http://hypertree.woot.com.ar/ 03:16:31 chandler: that's really hot, that's done just with js and canvas? 03:16:49 Yes. 03:17:01 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:17:16 There are some nice higher-level libraries for Canvas-based graphics too; I'm afraid I don't have any links on hand, but I'm sure Google will provide. 03:17:54 incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:20:58 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:21:35 back :) 03:21:55 aye, arcfide. I was hopig I could somehow bind the field names to their indices in the structure's "dispatcher". 03:22:09 so, when I say, (struct-name 'field ) 03:22:24 field, when seen in the dispatch function, really represents some number. 03:22:46 but so far, I'm unaware of how to get the value, associated with a symbol, when it's handed as data. 03:22:54 like, 'symbol -> SYMBOL 03:23:06 how can I retrieve the value of SYMBOL, when I'm handed 'symbol ? 03:23:08 Am I making any esnse? 03:23:12 elderK: Do you require that STRUCT-NAME is a procedure? 03:23:13 and hey, welcome back chandler :) 03:23:29 yup, arcfide. 03:23:30 chandler: Have you seen the Chez Scheme 7.9.4 release notes? 03:23:37 otherwise I'd just generate direct-accessor functions 03:23:52 arcfide: Oh, yes, I looked at them after you pointed me to it. I smiled when I came to the change in top-level `begin' semantics. 03:24:01 :-) 03:24:13 I can't remember if you approved of that change or not? 03:24:17 Yes, I did. 03:24:47 I wholeheartedly approve of `begin' meaning the same thing to a macro author regardless of where the macro is used. 03:24:49 elderK: If you were willing to restrict the use of field names to places where they could be treated as syntax, then you could do all the lookups in the compile/expand time. 03:24:55 In fact, I think the alternative is pretty much insanity. 03:25:50 chandler: Glad to hear it. 03:26:08 godo point arcfide 03:26:25 have a macro say, for (struct-name ) 03:26:31 field-name would be a literal. 03:26:32 right? 03:26:51 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:26:52 Well, I'll finish my current structure tinker, then try a new one :) 03:26:55 Thank sfor the idea man 03:27:15 Oleg Okasakki (this guys name always trips me up), had somethign similar, iirc. 03:27:38 elderK: Yes. 03:28:06 :) 03:28:23 chandler: :) I fell asleep reading ANSI CL hyperspec! 03:28:29 (not because I was bored, but becuase I was so tired) 03:28:34 (I slept with CL on my mind) 03:29:06 Heh. 03:35:45 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:35:57 What changed about Chez's semantics for BEGIN? What semantics did BEGIN previously exhibit? 03:38:45 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:39:36 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:15 elderK, I know of a Chris Okasaki, and of an Oleg Kiselyov, but I've never heard of an Oleg Okasakki... 03:40:42 lol 03:40:55 the kki makes that look finnish 03:45:24 Riastradh: I believe it previously treated top-level `begin' forms as if they were typed one after another at the REPL. See http://scheme.com/csv7.9.4/7.9.4.html#g4 for the release note entry about this change. 03:46:16 So one could not have forward references to macros? 03:47:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-173.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:06 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:51:12 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.108] has joined #scheme 03:51:22 Riastradh: At the top level, you could not have forward references to macros if they were used during the evaluation of the form. 03:51:35 chandler: to me it looks like canvas will only work with more recent firefox browsers and not with IE 03:51:37 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.108] has left #scheme 03:51:57 Riastradh: You still can't do that unless they are both wrapped in a BEGIN form, in which case, at the top-level, there can be a forward macro reference. 03:52:00 Huh? 03:52:58 Can you procure examples of (1) what was allowed and still is allowed, (2) what wasn't allowed and now is allowed, (3) what was allowed and now isn't allowed, and (4) what was never allowed (but perhaps should be allowed)? 03:53:07 tjaway [n=timj@e176198060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:22 Did you see the release note? 03:53:26 s/was never allowed/wasn't and still isn't allowed/1 03:53:26 There are examples there. 03:53:40 emma: There is a project that brings Canvas support to IE. It was developed by Google for Maps, IIRC: http://code.google.com/p/explorercanvas/ 03:54:13 emma: "Recent" versions of Firefox being 1.5? 03:54:43 arcfide, oh, are you saying that some of the examples in the release notes were formerly not allowed? 03:54:58 Riastradh: The main change is that this no longer causes an error at the top-level REPL: (begin (define y (b)) (define-syntax b (syntax-rules () [(_) 'b]))). 03:55:33 Previously, Chez would have evaluated (b) before the macro was defined and this would have resulted in an error being raised. 03:56:02 I see. 03:57:21 Of course, the benefit of this is that some macros which worked fine outside of the REPL now work equally well inside the REPL. 03:58:10 chandler: what about using SVG could you also make the google finance graph with SVG? Does SVG do dynamic interactive graphics and if so isn't it more standard? 03:58:22 emma: This is the JavaScript graphics library I was thinking of: http://raphaeljs.com/ ; there is a very Google Finance-like example here: http://raphaeljs.com/analytics.html 03:59:24 emma: SVG is not supported natively by IE either, and the SVG plugins for IE are all fairly horrible. If you are targeting anything-but-IE, Canvas is probably your best bet for compatibility. The Raphael library exists to abstract over SVG and VML to provide good compatibility too, but requires Firefox 3.0+. 03:59:33 emma: Anyway, this is getting very off topic for #scheme. 04:00:23 chandler: Another nice addition is that the library-directory parameter now allows you to associate an object directory with source directories. 04:00:32 Riastradh pasted "a hairy idiom" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92460 04:01:29 This means that you can associate a bunch of source directories with a single object directory, and coupled with the auto-compilation feature that was added, you can end up with a single directory that contains all of your compiled object code, which can then be used to build the program without having to manually know the dependencies, to some degree, at least. 04:02:08 Riastradh: Um, what is this? 04:04:10 It's a hairy idiom. 04:05:15 I'm not sure what you mean here by idiom, though I am relatively certain that it is hairy. 04:05:42 It is an idiom that turns up annoyingly often, and is seldom abstracted. 04:09:24 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176210083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:50 Riastradh annotated #92460 "another use of this idiom (untested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92460#1 04:15:19 I am afraid that I still don't get it. 04:15:42 The idiom is of walking a list while destructively discarding some elements. 04:17:31 (That is, some elements win (stay in the list) and some elements lose (are discarded from the list).) 04:17:48 I remember walking a tree and mutating an association, but I don't remember discarding an element destructively. 04:17:51 Who does this? 04:17:59 FILTER! is one example. 04:18:21 And other than the obvious hairiness, is there something particularly hairy here? 04:19:00 Walking a weak list, or population, is another example. 04:19:14 Walking a list of weak pairs, or a bucket in a weak hash table, is still another example. 04:19:21 Um...I don't know how to answer that question. 04:19:34 How about `nyeos'? 04:20:12 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:22:59 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:23:45 Riastradh annotated #92460 "example use of weak alists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92460#2 04:24:13 Observe that in the final result, the association whose key was (5 . 3), a key to which there exist no strong references, does not occur. 04:28:05 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-224.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:30:00 It's always a pain to write loops with this idiom, so often a loop that could clean out a weak list on its way, doesn't, because it's too clumsy to bother. 04:30:39 WALK-LOSERS is a pretty feeble abstraction for the purpose, though; it works only for loops that have no state of their own. 04:31:10 It would be nice to integrate an abstraction of the idiom into foof-loop, but that sounds tricky. 04:32:58 What idiom are we talking about? 04:33:04 04:34:50 OK, that's bizarre, I think I made need coffee to see what's going on. 04:35:00 Think FILTER!. 04:35:14 But it looks like from a foof-loop perspective all you need is the ability to mutate the loop variables in place? 04:35:23 Then think of cleaning out a list of weak entries. 04:35:26 Like with a (setter ) syntax. 04:35:29 (while doing something else) 04:36:07 (loop ((for x (in-list ls (setter set-x!)))) ...) 04:36:17 oh nm, you're setting cdrs 04:36:35 And I'm not just setting the cdr of the current pair, either, or even the cdr of the immediately previous pair. 04:36:47 ght 04:36:49 right 04:38:16 *foof* wanders off for coffee 04:43:35 Now suppose I want to count the number of elements that were dropped... 04:43:51 Blerf. 04:44:17 I really want this idiom to be compilable down to tight code fit for use inside the implementation of a hash table. 04:45:44 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:58 -!- xwl_ 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[n=swalters@pool-71-100-207-225.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:31:31 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-224.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:31:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:32:45 TR2N [i=email@89.180.186.208] has joined #scheme 06:38:15 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@adsl-66-187-18.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 06:40:19 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:46:07 So I realized my 'saver/loader idea is almost exactly emulated in gstreamer's source/sink concepts. 06:47:00 probably should start using source/sink instead then, just to keep things clear. 07:06:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:10:35 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:52:55 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:40 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-237.naist.jp] has quit [] 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CaptainMorgan ASau saccade_ bipt` dsmith manym Nshag Pepe_ snorble sizur nowhere_man ecraven j0ni_ bzzbzz mhoye r0bby dfeuer 17:11:31 -!- names: franki^ kniu tabe` ski nasloc__ saint_cypher eno Kusanagi rntz gnomon araujo yosafbridge sjamaan jay-mccarthy XTL eli rudybot ve rotty elf clklein_ makmanalp WuJiang_ _Jordan_ brx C-Keen jyujin_ jimrees jayne ray mreggen REPLeffect_ stepnem lisppaste linas_ joast mrd` Khisanth emma zbrown tarbo dlouhy rapacity roderic felipe tmitt nicktastic erg duncanm guenthr charleyb_ Adrinael ineiros cmatei hosh tltstc wastrel klutometis tessier dmpk2k 17:11:31 -!- names: Axioplase_ Leonidas tomaw_ sad0ur specbot minion saccade Armageddon00 clog kencausey mbishop certainty rmrfchik tizoc alexsuraci z0d chandler elly offby1 leppie|work adzuci peddie mornfall incubot skampler zbigniew 17:18:31 /join #smalltalk 17:18:37 er. huh. 17:18:55 How did I manage that... 17:31:42 davazp [n=user@9.Red-83-55-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:32:38 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[n=ecomba@49.Red-79-148-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:09:00 -!- ecomba [n=ecomba@49.Red-79-148-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:23 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:11:23 wingo, in MIT Scheme and riaxpander, that form, (define-syntax sequence begin) or (define-syntax fn lambda), works naturally, because the process for macro-expanding a DEFINE-SYNTAX form is to classify the right-hand side, which must be a keyword, and the forms LAMBDA and BEGIN are classified as keywords just like the form (SYNTAX-RULES ...). 20:11:59 (In MIT Scheme and riaxpander, since the form (lambda ...) is classified as an expression, (define-syntax foo (lambda ...)) is a syntax error.) 20:14:44 This is a convenient consequence of the clear recursive structure of the macro expansion process by which they are implemented, which is very different from the piles of kludges that make up other macro expanders such as psyntax. 20:25:32 Riastradh: what are the chances of mit scheme's getting a scheme48-like module system? 20:26:30 It wouldn't be quite like Scheme48's, because MIT Scheme is full of mutually referential components. 20:27:44 Is there work going on on that? 20:28:22 Not presently. 20:28:38 I'd like to see it happen. But I can't make it happen any time soon. 20:28:49 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 20:30:47 I'd like to write my dissertation about a MOP for Scheme, and I'd like to develop it on MIT Scheme 20:31:23 a mop for what part of scheme? 20:31:39 sounds like a nice project 20:32:00 kiczales intended mops to be quite widely applicable 20:32:21 Mops are definitely widely applicable -- they are used in most households and buildings all over the world. 20:32:33 Useful critters, mops. 20:32:37 har 20:33:18 wingo: a MOP for a Dylan-like object system 20:33:53 sounds interesting. 20:34:19 It is :) 20:34:33 :) 20:34:51 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:34:53 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 20:35:02 unrelated.. i heard kent dybvig is a vi user. that sounds unpossible. 20:39:58 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@67.41.108.251] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:22 You must mean R. Kent Dybvig, wingo. The `R' is no accident. 20:40:37 the r is for vi 20:41:06 You're not an Asimov fan, I surmise. 20:41:54 i used to be 20:42:03 r. daneel something something 20:42:27 but i had forgotten 20:42:28 R. Daneel Olivaw was a well-known robot. 20:43:21 Moreover, "R." meant "robot" 20:43:35 vi is an interface more apt for robots 20:43:40 Not only in his case 20:43:43 Quite, wingo. 20:45:17 Well, I am just too lazy to learn to stretch my fingers right 20:45:21 So I use Vim 20:45:53 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #scheme 20:47:05 wingo, did you catch what I wrote above about DEFINE-SYNTAX? 20:56:21 Riastradh: yes, but i didn't quite get it 20:56:39 in (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules ...)) in what way is the rhs a keyword? 20:57:33 `Keyword' is one classification that a form can have. `Expression' is another. `Definition' is another. (The `word' part of `keyword' may be a red herring, or indicative of an unfortunate choice of terminology.) 20:58:19 That DEFINE-SYNTAX form binds FOO to have a denotation such that if you write (foo ...), it has the same effect as ((syntax-rules ...) ...). 20:58:35 so one has to do some expansion to see if the form is a keyword 20:59:16 Yes. Classifying a form may entail macro expansion -- in particular, classifying a pair whose operator subform is classified as a keyword implemented by a macro transformer. 21:03:00 does mit scheme do identifier syntax? 21:03:26 No, and neither does riaxpander, but that's an independent issue. 21:04:56 it would seem to be related, as (define-syntax sequence begin) would try to expand `begin' as identifier syntax, but it has no such expansion 21:05:23 at least in psyntax which doesn't keep an internal distinction between identifier syntax and "normal" syntax 21:05:27 No. To classify a DEFINE-SYNTAX form, you classify the right-hand subform. The classification of BEGIN is a keyword. 21:05:39 classification != expansion, then? 21:06:03 what is classification? 21:07:41 If you classify the form (define x 5) in a standard Scheme environment, you get back an object called a definition, which has some parts concerning the nature of the definition. If you classify (+ 1 2), you get back an object called an expression, which also has some parts concerning the expression (internally, a procedure that returns a representation of the expression in the output format). 21:08:09 If you classify the form LET, you get back an object called a keyword, which for the case of LET contains a macro transformer procedure. 21:08:57 If you bind FOO to be a name macro expanding to
, and then classify the form FOO, you get back the same thing as you would have gotten if you had classified . 21:10:01 did someone milk this for a paper yet, or is that still a pending subject 21:10:09 Similarly, if you bind BAR to be an ordinary macro so that (BAR ...) expands to , and then classify (BAR ...), you get back the same thing as you would have gotten if you had classified . 21:11:18 I don't know about a paper, but I wrote a some code to explain the subject. It's at ; classify.scm contains the main ideas of classification, taxonoy.scm describes several possible classifications, and denotation.scm describes several possible meanings that names can have. 21:11:53 i will read riaxpander at some point. 21:13:32 Classification does not entail recursive expansion, however. Separating classification from recursive expansion -- particularly from recursive expansion of the right-hand sides of definitions -- is what enables scanning of definitions to work easily, and what enables forward references to macros. 21:14:44 Classifying a form involves iteratively expanding macros (but not descending into subforms) only until you know what kind of form it is: a definition, expression, keyword, &c. 21:21:25 By classifying definitions one level deeper than they are currently, by the way, one could do away with DEFINE-SYNTAX altogether: if, in (DEFINE ), is classified as a keyword, then should have a syntactic binding; otherwise, if is classified as an expression, should have a variable binding. 21:21:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:22:17 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.8.33] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:23:40 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:52 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 21:32:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:39:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:41 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:49 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:51:07 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:18 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:44 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:00:46 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:51 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:01:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:03:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:05:25 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 22:20:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:33:55 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:25 tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ada15fd.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 22:46:45 -!- wingo [n=wingo@184.Red-81-38-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:54 hmm, this is sort of scary: I'm working on file input for the first time in scheme... 22:54:17 Whenever I mean to type 'port', 'porn' always appears instead 22:54:25 *tommylommykins* thinks he needs to get out mpre 22:54:27 more 22:57:32 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:10 tommylommykins: Or you could learn to type. ;) 23:00:33 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:03:56 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 23:03:57 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:04:30 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 23:07:15 tommylommykins: the solution is to put all of your important visual media in a directory named "port" 23:08:05 But then where will he put his collection of fine dessert wines? 23:10:15 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:16 lol 23:13:39 That's a non-problem for me, I'm not a wine drinker :) 23:14:35 No, I suppose you're a Scheme programmer instead -- both respectable occupations. 23:14:51 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@64.134.156.68] has joined #scheme 23:17:15 Actually, port sounds rather good right about now. 23:17:46 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 23:24:45 typing 'porn' instead of 'port' is cleary more acceptable in a social context than typing 'printf' instead of 'print' 23:26:57 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.137] has joined #scheme 23:28:18 anyone know how to delete all the text on an editor-canvas%? 23:30:15 like a text%? 23:30:42 you can use `cut' or `delete' 23:31:36 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:39:05 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:44:17 kwinterl [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:44:25 -!- kwinterl [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has left #scheme 23:45:00 drwhen [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:11 -!- drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:54 jonrafkind: delete is fine, but it requires you know how many characters are in the canvas... 23:47:09 yes 23:47:13 i have code to find out 23:47:33 (send text last-line) 23:47:54 (add1 (send text line-end-position that-last-line)) 23:47:56 -!- hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:48:03 last-line... wouldn't that get the line, not the position, in characters? 23:48:13 oh, huh. 23:48:27 so you have to calculate it according to lines and end-position. 23:48:33 thanks 23:48:35 yea, thats the way I do it 23:49:14 jcowan, is anything happening with the new process? 23:51:19 The deadline is rapidly approaching, but I have no access to the input queue. Arthur says he has asked five and gotten three to say yes. 23:51:28 I have asked no one privately. 23:51:55 What's the deadline? 23:54:42 January 8. However, there is no executory language, merely a request to send applications by then.