00:04:39 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-15-36-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:42 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:08 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-100-207-225.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:31 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@pool-71-100-207-225.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:26:55 Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:33:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:33:58 Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.202] has joined #scheme 00:34:33 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.202] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:37 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 00:44:23 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:24 -!- Narrenschiff_ is now known as Narrenschiff 00:47:57 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:50:18 -!- masm1 [n=masm@bl10-6-61.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #scheme 00:54:12 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 01:04:50 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:34 Don't all talk at once, folks. 01:09:08 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-239.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:13:57 :-| 01:14:37 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-33-69.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:15:14 Riastradh: yeah, we're all just such talkative folks here. 01:20:12 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 01:23:42 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:25:01 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 02:23:26 MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:36 Actually, if any of you know how WSAioctl works, that's a great topic! :-P 02:35:33 -!- MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 02:36:08 MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:40 -!- MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 02:55:52 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 03:09:57 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 03:13:20 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:32:03 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:39:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:03:37 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-239.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:07:10 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:09:55 tjaway [n=timj@e176211179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:36 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176223118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:45 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:07 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:14 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:27 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:43:21 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:53 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-31-12-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?"] 04:54:19 *alexsuraci* has been working on something like Parsec for scheme all day 04:55:01 just tinkering. so far it's pretty neat. sort of mirrors haskell's monadic syntax. 04:55:32 e.g. (define-parser (lexeme p) (bind r p) (many (satisfy char-whitespace?)) r) 05:04:00 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 05:16:55 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:23:07 pasted: http://paste.lisp.org/display/92377#1 05:24:20 alexsuraci: Neat. 05:24:29 karlw: thanks :) 05:25:06 You ported parsec to PLT? 05:25:22 it's in-progress, but yeah 05:25:35 no language specs or anything like that, and only a few primitives provided 05:26:01 mostly doing this as an exercise beyond project euler, turning out nicely though 05:26:38 How optimized is it compared to the Haskell version? 05:27:21 0%, I'm still tossing it together. not sure of parsec's internals, I'm basically just porting it over to an ideal syntax 05:28:29 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:29:14 by 0% I mean I've made no optimizations. it works and everything, I just haven't run trials/benchmarks/etc. 05:29:47 http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kwinterl/logocl.html 05:30:14 A Logo parser I wrote by hand. 05:36:45 nice 05:37:19 The compiler project never amounted to anything :-) 05:39:31 I thought about resurrecting it as a DrScheme language level a few times. 05:40:51 What languages for DrScheme are available besides what comes with it? I have an ocaml language installed, but unfortunately the way it handles formatting is bizarre. 05:41:42 OCaml and JavaScript, I think. 05:41:46 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:56 does anyone here use the ocaml language? 05:42:04 i'm wondering if i'm just missing something 05:42:19 johnnowak: #ocaml might help 05:42:47 Otherwise, complain to the author. 05:42:47 r2q2: i'm talking about the way the ocaml language add-on handles indentation in drscheme, to be clear 05:43:08 Oh 05:44:49 It probably has a bug, at least in UI design. 05:53:22 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 05:53:39 I prefer defmacro to syntax-rules. 05:58:46 i generally prefer scheme's less obfuscated naming stuff 05:58:53 e.g. numberp vs. number? 05:59:38 I mean that I prefer defmacro in Scheme. 05:59:52 oh, that exists? 06:00:15 ah, in mzlib 06:00:44 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:02:43 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 06:02:57 You don't really need define-syntax or any hygienic stuff unless you're writing a production library. 06:03:55 That's ridiculous, karlw. No sensible Scheme system provides DEFMACRO for any purpose except backward compatibility with existing (broken) code. Using it in new code, for whatever extent you intend to use it, is introducing more bugs. 06:04:24 *karlw* yawns 06:05:19 alexsuraci, does your parser combinator library exhibit space safety with nested choices? In particular, if you have something like (choice (sequence (string "foo") ...) ), and the input contains "foo", is any space occupied by the enclosing choice and ? 06:05:29 s/nested choices/committed choices/1 06:06:00 Nobody cares about the code I write. 06:06:49 If you carry an attitude like that, karlw, be sure to mark your code so that people know to avoid it. 06:06:56 Riastradh: there is an "any" combinator that will go through until a parse succeeds fully, and if not, it (should) go back and retry the next one and repeat 06:07:58 *eli* +1s Riastradh 06:08:35 alexsuraci, yes, sure. Substitute ANY for CHOICE in my question, then. 06:09:00 I almost never use macros, anyway. 06:09:14 alexsuraci: I believe Riastradh is asking about the sort of space leak problems mentioned in http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/daan/download/papers/parsec-paper.pdf 06:09:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yhowffa 06:10:03 Sorry, let me be a little clearer: If you run a parser that looks like (any (sequence (string "foo") ...) ) on input that begins with "foo", and if you have committed to the first choice, does any space accumulate as a consequence of the choice? 06:10:08 Riastradh: not sure, sorry - my primary goal is just bettering my knowledge of the language 06:10:39 I don't think so, as soon as a parse succeeds in (any) it will immediately return it. I haven't written anything specific to those cases. 06:11:48 it won't "commit" to a choice, though; if the "foo" choice fails at any point down the line, the idea is to have any discard that progress and keep trying other ones 06:12:01 alexsuraci, ah, OK. 06:12:29 did that answer your question? :P 06:12:30 I ask because this is something fairly tricky that even (the Haskell) Parsec doesn't do quite right, or didn't when I last checked, even though it supports committing to choices. 06:12:40 (and defaults to committing to choices, in fact) 06:12:47 karlw: You might also never use floating point numbers and instead compensate with some integer-based encoding. 06:12:52 Riastradh: have you tried the "try" combinator? 06:13:10 By contrast, I believe does not exhibit this accumulation of space. 06:13:18 e.g. foo = try (string "foo" >> string "bar") <|> try (string "foo" >> string "buzz") should succeed on "foobuzz" 06:13:51 alexsuraci, yes, that enables backtracking, by contrast with the default of committing to choices. 06:13:59 eli: I'm being facetious about defmacro 06:14:03 ah, yes 06:14:50 I haven't really made the distinction yet. So far I've been nailing down the syntax and getting it at least partially functional; haven't digged deeper yet, but I plan to. 06:15:11 (Parscheme is not fast, though, even if it is (as far as I know) reasonably space-safe.) 06:15:18 karlw: Such entertainment is damaging. 06:15:35 karlw, perhaps you should make your facetiousness look less like serious advice. 06:17:20 alexsuraci: I would give that paper a quick look then. It gives the motivation for things like the 'choice' combinator only trying the alternative if the first choice has not consumed any input. 06:18:13 Okay, do not use defmacro unless you feel completely cynical about the world. In that case, welcome to sanity. 06:19:51 (if '() 'foo 'bar) is bar 06:19:58 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:20:10 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:20:36 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 06:20:46 So equating `defmacro' with sanity is ... amusing? 06:21:09 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:29 No, equating lack of concern with sanity is amusing. 06:25:52 How do I change the default base to 12 in PLT? 06:27:37 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:04 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 06:36:00 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-9-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:48 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:37 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:37:45 johnnowak: sure, thanks! 06:39:24 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #scheme 06:41:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:53 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:59:17 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:03:50 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:04:04 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:14 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 07:08:19 wow... my match.scm takes up 32MB in scheme48 :( 07:09:44 Try `,flush source'. 07:10:19 (There's a space leak in Scheme48 related to debugging information.) 07:10:47 Well, I meant after loading it the scheme48vm heap jumps to 32MB - it's not actually using all that space. 07:11:14 Oh, do you mean that Scheme48 reserves thirty-two megabytes of virtual address space? 07:11:26 I was initially disturbed because it made the chibi heap grow to 6MB (8MB before some minor tweaks). 07:11:33 yes 07:13:01 match.scm is neither very large nor complicated, but it's all syntax-rules, and naive syntax-rules generated forms are large 07:13:06 That's not surprising, particularly if it's a recent version of Scheme48 which dynamically expands the heap. 07:14:17 And in some of the forms with many syntax-rules clauses which could be partially unified removing redundant checks, neither the syntax-rules implementation nor the compiler are performing any unification (in either scheme48 or chibi or probably most implementations). 07:15:29 xwl [n=user@123.115.110.193] has joined #scheme 07:20:11 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:20:31 On an unrelated note, SRFI 69 mentions nothing about weak hash tables; I think it is safe to assume that SRFI 69 hash tables have strong references to their keys and to their data. Sound right? 07:20:58 That was the assumption I made. 07:21:15 Grmble. 07:22:02 07:22:02 I think that may have come up in the discussion. 07:22:03 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yc8uehx 07:25:08 I read the posts on the mit-scheme list. What's the semantics of a weak-key table - is the key just reclaimed, or is the whole hash entry reclaimed? 07:25:30 The latter. What good would the entry be if the key were reclaimed? 07:26:13 What if the keys are immediates? 07:26:36 Then they occupy no storage and will never be reclaimed. 07:26:45 And neither will the hash entry? 07:27:06 The entry will occupy storage, but it will never be invalidated. 07:27:23 (Also, entries with numbers for keys will never be invalidated.) 07:28:33 Even in an EQ? table? 07:28:43 Yes, in any key-weak table. 07:28:52 A bignum in an EQ? table would be safe to invalidate. 07:29:37 For EQ? tables, that's probably what you want. For EQV? tables, that's probably not what you want. 07:31:07 -!- dantalizing [n=dan@ubuntu/member/dantalizing] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:22 Really, there should be several different levels of hash table strength and weakness. That aspect of MIT Scheme's hash table implementation is a bit of a mess, I think. 07:32:32 A kludge, rather, not a mess. 07:32:43 Does no-rehash mean not to expand the buckets? 07:32:57 No, that means not to rehash it on the first use after a garbage collection. 07:33:26 OK 07:34:03 SRFI-90 provides all combinations of weak keys and values. 07:34:48 Unfortunately it depends on a first-class keyword type. 07:41:47 xwl` [n=user@123.115.110.136] has joined #scheme 07:53:32 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 07:54:29 Riastradh: Buu 07:54:34 Uub? 07:55:06 ubu 07:56:46 Riastradh: Let's undo your weak hashtable hack. 07:57:29 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.110.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:09 Riastradh: Surely that is the best short term solution, right? 07:59:10 Maybe, but it is important to fix the bugs that this exposed, and that this encouraged me to find. 08:01:32 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 08:11:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:12:17 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 08:16:21 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:20:10 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:44 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:38:42 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-24-15-36-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:36 Oh, boy. The SRFI 69 reference implementation of HASH-TABLE-UPDATE! looks wrong to me. 08:42:18 *synx* dances the silly dance while continuing to cheer mindlessly 08:42:28 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42:47 In particular, (let ((ht (make-hash-table))) (hash-table-set! ht 0 'fnord) (hash-table-update! ht 0 (lambda (x) (hash-table-remove! ht 0) 'foobar)) (hash-table-ref ht 0 (lambda () #f))) should yield FOOBAR, according to the English specification, but I believe will yield #F in the reference implementation. 08:45:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@static-68-161-232-114.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:14 *mejja* plays The Trooper on lead air guitar like a pro 08:45:16 Sorry, HASH-TABLE-DELETE!, not HASH-TABLE-REMOVE!. 08:55:44 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:09:27 On a related note; Why isn't the obarray ever resized? 09:10:17 'Cos that requires writing a big ugly pile of C code. 09:10:58 There are already, what, six hash table implementations in MIT Scheme? Making them all do resizing is a big pain! 09:11:51 'lo folks 09:13:52 -!- xwl` [n=user@123.115.110.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:42 Also, the obarray is actually big enough. 09:15:09 ...um, I mean: The obarray is actually big enough for many uses of the system. 09:15:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:47 You'd have to add ten thousand new symbols before the obarray would start to look slightly too small. 09:16:10 (But yeah, it should be resized.) 09:21:09 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 09:28:32 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:41:54 Riastradh: How do you handle binary formats in Scheme? Like, as in you personally? 09:42:23 Do you load say, uint64s directly? or, do you read and assemble them byte by byte? 09:42:31 just curious as to how people approach the same problems :) 09:42:42 ls 09:42:47 oh, and hey, guys, Mery Christmas in advance! 09:43:47 How about you, mejja? 09:44:04 Generally, read octet by octet and assemble larger units from those. 09:45:17 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:47:58 Was just wondering if it would be worthwhile to implement a kind of ... buffered file input thing, but, I figure most implementation's ports (when from files) are buffered anyway. 09:49:33 Yes, that is a reasonable assumption. 09:53:46 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:33 Riastradh: See, I'm trying to ponder up decent ways to retrieve things like [su]int32_t type things from binary files. 09:56:01 so far, my way to retrieve signed integers, is just... to assemble the stream, byte by byte, and if it's signed, reverse the two's complement. 09:56:34 since, if I load $fff0 as a value, I can't seem to use it as a signed number... 09:56:44 or, so far, I haven't learned how to do that without some kind of translation. 09:56:50 Am I missing something? or, am I simply doing it as most? 09:57:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:58:52 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:00:46 Well, if you call a procedure that reads an octet and yields its unsigned interpretation as an integer, then you will get back a Scheme integer in the interval [0, 2^8). There is, of course, a unique map from this interval onto the interval [-2^7, 2^7) corresponding with the signed interpretation of the same bit string, in case you don't have a procedure to yield that. 10:01:51 -2 .. 2-1 10:02:02 ;-) 10:04:47 Well, aye. It just feels clumsy, that's all. 10:05:22 If the implementation doesn't offer us handy shortcuts, we have to combine and translate it into something scheme can use, by hand.. 10:05:24 That's why we have abstractions! 10:05:28 :D 10:05:32 God bless abstraction! 10:10:01 *Riastradh* vanishes. 10:10:02 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 10:12:49 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 10:16:15 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-9-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:43 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:40:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 10:48:33 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 11:02:32 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 11:43:34 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053DC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:45:31 dzhus 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-!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-249-3.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:43 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:58 copumpkin [n=copumpki@63.118.143.121] has joined #scheme 20:37:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:38:51 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.24] has joined #scheme 20:41:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 20:44:31 SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 20:51:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 20:54:19 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-33-199.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:57:56 -!- roderic` is now known as roderic 21:00:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 21:01:17 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:05:33 evening ;) 21:05:40 does any scheme object system have a MOP? 21:05:50 guile's goops does 21:05:58 swindle might 21:06:05 stklos almost certainly does 21:07:03 Swindle does. 21:08:20 -!- aintme [n=user@1.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 21:12:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-253.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:35 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:15 thanks for the answers 21:19:47 np. 21:19:54 greetings, sir barzilay. 21:21:34 eli got knighted? 21:24:25 wingo: Good morning. 21:24:34 elly: Maybe. I might have been drunk at the time. 21:27:50 *wingo* currently quaffing http://www.schlenkerla.de/rauchbier/beschreibunge.html 21:32:34 So "the connoisseur" is basically pissed drunk. 21:33:08 If alcohol affects your judgment, than what can you say about such beer critics? 21:33:56 to connaitre is only to know, not necessarily to criticise :) 21:34:51 to to know? 21:35:27 Well, yeah -- but there must be someone who reviews these things. 21:36:01 sure, but that wouldn't be the brewer's site :P 21:36:03 For example, you must consider that the extremely tempting description on that web page was written by drunk people. 21:36:20 i can only think so 21:36:27 If that is all they were drinking, then presumably they liked it enough to consume enough of it to arrive at that state. 21:36:30 because they talk about beer in the morning! 21:36:52 IIUC, there's beer at all times... 21:37:09 apparently 21:37:40 the other day i accidentally woke up an hour too early so got to see the construction crew at the cafe near work 21:37:43 all having beer 21:38:02 really guys, beer in the morning. ok! 21:38:12 hm 21:38:20 i meant to quote that 21:38:31 Should be perfectly fine if they are working on a frank gehry building. 21:38:37 anyways, no wonder the injury rate is so high here 21:38:38 hehe 21:41:14 wingo: You lucky bastard. 21:41:29 wingo: Can you get that stuff outside of Bamberg ;)? 21:42:56 antoszka: here in barcelona yes, though there is probably only one place you can find it :) 21:43:14 *antoszka* is unfortunately neither in Bamberg nor in Barcelona. 21:46:02 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:52:03 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@63.118.143.121] has quit [] 22:00:21 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:01:35 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DB02C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:12:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:14:01 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:09 snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.210] has joined #scheme 22:15:46 -!- snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.210] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:17 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:34:17 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-128.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:38:36 towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:21 anyone want to give some really basic darcs advice to someone who's too lazy to RTFM? 22:53:27 Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:59 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 23:15:22 In plt-scheme, what is the most concise way to make 'fn' equivalent to 'lambda'? 23:17:19 (also, why does this not work: (define-syntax fn lambda)) 23:18:25 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:18:45 elly: Why *would* that work? 23:18:56 I think "define-syntax" wants the thing you're defining to take an argument 23:19:01 -!- Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 23:19:06 chandler: because this works: 23:19:13 (define (f x) (+ x 1)) (define g f) 23:19:51 If you follow that line of logic, how would you write an ordinary procedure that acts as a syntax transformer? 23:20:47 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:20:51 I don't know :P 23:20:57 my understanding of how macros work is very incomplete 23:21:12 rudybot: init scheme 23:21:13 chandler: 23:21:14 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 23:21:22 Riastradh: Yes? 23:21:28 (define-syntax fn lambda) 23:21:28 ;Value: fn 23:21:28 ((fn (x) x) 5) 23:21:29 ;Value: 5 23:22:11 ...? 23:22:39 Riastradh: I rather dislike those semantics. What does `lambda' mean in a non-call position in phase 0? 23:23:00 It means a keyword, just like in any other position in any other phase. 23:23:10 The right-hand side of a DEFINE-SYNTAX form must be a keyword in MIT Scheme. 23:23:14 also, my original question still stands 23:23:24 (i.e., what is the most concise way to make fn an alias for lambda?) 23:23:25 rudybot: eval (define-syntax fn (make-rename-transformer #'lambda)) 23:23:33 The form (SYNTAX-RULES ...) is classified as a keyword, just like the form LAMBDA and the form (ER-MACRO-TRANSFORMER ...). 23:23:36 rudybot: ((fn (x) x) 1) 23:23:37 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 23:23:41 rudybot: eval ((fn (x) x) 1) 23:23:42 chandler: ; Value: 1 23:23:57 elly, anyway, the portable answer to your question is (define-syntax fn (syntax-rules () ((FN . junk) (LAMBDA . junk)))) 23:27:00 Riastradh: Yes, that's the kind of magic I'm not fond of. The right hand side of a `define-syntax' form should be evaluated the same way as any other expression, though this evaluation occurs at a higher phase. 23:27:15 It's not magic at all. 23:27:17 rntz [n=rntz@pool-98-110-42-52.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:27:21 It is no more magic than treating the operator position differently from operand positions. 23:27:38 The basic operation in the macro expansion process is to classify forms. 23:28:02 Classifying the form LAMBDA gives you a keyword. Classifying the form (+ 1 2) gives you an expression. Classifying the form (DEFINE A 5) gives you a definition. 23:28:48 Different parts of the macro expander accept different classifications. In operand positions of combinations, for example, the forms must be classified as expressions, not as keywords or as definitions. 23:30:26 Doesn't that rule out the possibility of identifier macros? 23:30:55 -!- wingo [n=wingo@19.Red-79-151-218.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:59 How so? Classifying a form that is a name merely reduces to classifying its expansion if the name is bound to an identifier macro. 23:32:19 Oh, so `keywords' are actually distinct from a concept of primitive syntax? 23:32:43 The denotation of a name is different from the classification of a form. 23:34:10 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 23:34:27 In what I said above, I used the term `keyword' to refer to the classification of forms, not to the denotation of names. 23:36:00 The meaning of the name LAMBDA might be a macro or a special operator; internally, those two options might be represented by a transformer procedure (which maps a form whose car is the name LAMBDA to another form) or a classifier procedure (which maps a form whose car is the name LAMBDA to that form's classification). 23:36:19 What imbues `lambda' with keywordness, then? 23:36:42 If the denotation of the name LAMBDA is a macro or a special operator, then the form LAMBDA is classified as a keyword. 23:37:27 In riaxpander, if (syntactic-lookup environment 'LAMBDA) satisfies TRANSFORMER? or CLASSIFIER?, then (classify 'LAMBDA environment) satisfies KEYWORD?. 23:37:49 (SYNTACTIC-LOOKUP maps an environment and a name to the denotation of the name in that environment; CLASSIFY maps a form and an environment to the classification of that form in that environment.) 23:39:22 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:40:18 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit ["Goin' away"] 23:40:22 OK. I think I understand what you're saying, and stand by my earlier characterization as "magic", in contrast to systems where the right-hand side of `define-syntax' is an ordinary expression. 23:40:46 The object of this exercise is a clear recursive structure in the macro expansion process. 23:40:53 This is not what you will find, for example, in psyntax. 23:41:08 I don't think you'll find anything that could be remotely described as clear in psyntax. 23:52:04 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:54:16 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 23:59:12 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"]