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00:38:15 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The Lord of Murder Shall Perish."] 00:41:57 incubot: Scientists have unlocked the entire genetic code of two of the most common cancers - skin and lung - a move they say could revolutionise cancer care. 00:42:01 If the mutex is blocked because of mutex-unlock!, then the mutex is unlocked anyway. 00:42:07 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:42:45 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:43:10 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 00:45:50 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 00:45:53 -!- davazp [n=user@102.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:07 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:10 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:59:37 -!- 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[n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:11 eno [n=eno@70.137.165.81] has joined #scheme 01:45:11 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 01:46:20 _Jordan__ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:03 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 01:54:46 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:57:02 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:57:19 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:01:13 incubot: If Moses supposes his toeses are roses, then Moses supposes erroneously. 02:01:16 Anyway I still don't see why the book uses one example and than randomly supposes you will know how to use another in the exercise. 02:09:01 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:31 -!- charmless 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out)] 02:43:07 Fnord! 02:43:59 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:05 -!- elly [n=pyxystyx@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:10 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:22 incubot: A rose is arose and the rows of her toes is pigeons alas; and the point of the join is in from the shin, and woofer and tweeter have outsung St. Peter! 02:44:26 played any of the shin megami tensei games? 02:44:52 ...no 02:46:46 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:47:45 oSand [n=heartles@203.97.179.3] has joined #scheme 02:48:37 Can someone tell me if there is a non-bitwise xor? 02:49:31 On booleans? There is no standard name for it -- but you can just (define (xor a b) (if a (not b) b)). 02:50:01 Thanks 02:50:05 (or perhaps (define (xor a b) (if a (and (not b) a) b)), if you want XOR to return the non-false value) 02:50:08 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has left #scheme 02:51:41 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 02:51:57 *mejja* would use (NOT (EQV? X Y)) 02:52:26 elly [n=pyxystyx@fenrir.mimisbrunnr.net] has joined #scheme 02:55:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fsgjdyqyjdlknofc] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:55:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:19 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:06:47 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 03:07:57 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:11:23 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 03:14:47 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:15:11 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 03:15:13 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:14 george [n=george@189.107.166.115] has joined #scheme 03:18:18 who stole mah bot 03:24:45 -!- xerces [n=Xerces@24.139.121.4] has left #scheme 03:28:45 -!- BlackRockFailed [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #scheme 03:29:43 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:29:46 chandler: Of course you realize that YOU killed it, with your foolish request to translate from perl to java. 03:29:55 rudybot: feeling better? 03:29:55 offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 03:30:12 offby1: Er, what request? 03:30:29 oops, sorry; it was jlf, not you 03:30:36 *offby1* gestures to the police 03:30:44 hopefully they'll lower their weapons 03:31:03 nothing like exposure to Reality to find bugs in one's code 03:31:15 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-191-56.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:32:21 ,t8 perl java print "hello, world\n" 03:32:22 invalid translation language pair 03:33:29 nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has joined #scheme 03:33:32 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.87.237] has joined #scheme 03:40:05 rudybot: ,t8 sv en offby1: varsågod ta en slickepinne! 03:40:05 mejja: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 03:40:31 ,t8 sv en offby1: varsågod ta en slickepinne! 03:40:32 offby1: here you take a lollipop! 03:40:48 *mejja* buuuuu 03:41:24 -!- nutmegmagi [n=swalters@65.222.72.3] has left #scheme 03:47:40 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:50:49 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:08 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:52:25 tjafk [n=timj@e176217041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:42 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176204212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:55:18 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-60-206.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:04:34 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:10:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 04:17:07 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 04:21:40 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:57 offby1` [n=user@206.124.138.125] has joined #scheme 04:26:08 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:18 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:27:08 ,t8 en sv mejja: here you take a lollipop! 04:27:08 mejja: Här kan du ta en slickepinne! 04:28:30 -!- ColonelJ [n=cipherja@unaffiliated/colonelj] has quit ["Farewell"] 04:30:01 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:50 mm, lollipop 04:31:03 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 04:33:58 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:34:02 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:34:07 -!- xwl_` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:10 -!- oSand [n=heartles@203.97.179.3] has left #scheme 04:39:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:40 xwl_` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 04:42:56 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:05 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 04:45:19 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:53 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:54:12 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:54:19 So I'd like to display some text in an editor canvas, but I'd like to make sure that the canvas's vertical size is enough to display at least one line of text, and I'd like to adjust the horizontal size higher as more text is added, within some limit. 04:54:35 In short, I r teh suck at GUI 04:55:47 tired of the horizontal scroll bar appearing, and obscuring all but 2 pixels of the available text. 04:55:48 ain't gettin' no help from me 04:55:52 *offby1* also r the suck 04:56:37 then I have to manually drag it to resize, and of course that occasionally puts the canvas in an endless spasmodic resizing seizure. 05:02:19 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 05:08:18 http://flipthemedia.com/index.php/2009/11/the-internet-is-unstoppable/ 05:08:26 -!- foof` is now known as foof 05:11:55 boring 05:12:03 of course, anything that lasts longer than about two seconds is boring to me 05:21:02 you're boring to me 05:21:04 :P 05:21:58 indeed, I've lasted way longer than two seconds 05:22:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:23:11 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:24:56 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:29:37 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 05:34:19 oSand [n=heartles@118-93-17-118.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:36:23 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-31-15-162.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?"] 05:38:47 lol Internets 05:39:55 I saw moot and 4chan, and Internet Tough Guy 05:40:00 video fails though, for lack of longcat 05:40:21 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@69.12.216.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:07 dangit, the only thing that has get-text-extent is a drawing context... need it for an editor-canvas. 05:44:31 huh, but editor-canvas does have a drawing context... 06:04:10 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:06:17 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:07:00 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 06:09:40 -!- xwl__` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:58 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:21:36 offby1: "of course, anything that lasts longer than about two seconds is boring to me" <-- I wouldn't like to be your girlfriend/wife/partner 06:21:54 Having said that, I disappear. 06:24:33 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 06:26:25 I cant seem to grasp the concept of a procedure that produces a procudure.. why would I make such a procedure? 06:26:59 its a bit mind bending one could say 06:27:46 the examples used in SICP are not clear to me. 06:28:30 so if anyone have a better pedagocial approach, please speak up :) 06:31:37 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-cnxjwwzldzaphiat] has quit ["Page closed"] 06:33:30 morphir: say, you need a function that always add 3, and another that always adds 8 06:33:57 morphir: You'd do (define (adder n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))) 06:34:20 (define add-3 (adder 3) (define add-8 (adder 8)) 06:34:54 You factored code. Thus, you win. 06:36:23 aha!! 06:36:30 Also, you need to do manytimes (foo a b c d e f), but b,c,d,e,f don't change. You'd better (define (my-foo x) (foo x b c d e f)) 06:36:42 thanks Axioplase_ :) 06:38:13 Change the parameters once in my-foo, and *everywhere* it now uses the new value. You saved 25 minutes editing your code, and your binary is more efficient because you don't use the stack everytime to put b,c,d,e and f again everytime. Thus, you win the grand prize. 06:38:39 goody :D 06:38:49 -!- oSand [n=heartles@118-93-17-118.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [] 06:38:59 I get it now. 06:39:40 It will become a second nature when you use higher-order functions with several parameters (like MAP) more often. 06:39:50 Glad it helped. 06:40:07 actually I get map 06:40:35 but I did not get higher order procedures that returned procedures. 06:41:24 but often one need to give other examples to bring it home 06:43:52 I have always liked to factorize equations in algebra 06:44:09 now to see that done in code is pleasing 06:44:45 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:44:45 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:47:52 yeah, thats a pretty nice way to build abstraction with. 06:51:05 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-oxsxpiefkqmxwnso] has joined #scheme 07:02:17 morphir: (define (add-something-to-each something) (lambda (each) (+ something each))) then... (map (add-something-to-each 4) '(1 2 3 4 5)) 07:03:17 my procedures return procedures generally when I want to specify their behavior differently within a certain context. Like if sometimes I want to add 4 to each, sometimes 400. 07:03:56 I can make a procedure that only takes that variable amount that's added, as well as any other arguments that are the same for that run-through, but different from time to time. 07:04:06 And it returns a procedure that takes only the arguments that change for each iteration. 07:05:04 "Lambda calculus, meet morphir; morphir, meet lambda calculus" 07:05:25 (lambda general-stuff (lambda specific-stuff (combine general-stuff specific-stuff))) 07:09:04 nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:11:13 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 07:15:28 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:15:54 -!- hkBst_ is now known as hkBst 07:25:30 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 07:25:30 07:25:30 -!- names: ccl-logbot hkBst mreggen nullpo leppie|work JoelMcCracken morphir Jafet zbigniew bokr MichaelRaskin bipt` xwl_` synx rudybot offby1 jonrafkind sstrickl tjafk rstandy george XTL elly Pepe_ eno Kusanagi _Jordan__ antoszka adzuci_ bombshelter13b_ cornucopic chandler saccade_ brandelune z0d chops Poeir reid02 tabe```` alexsuraci tizoc nowhere_man j0ni rmrfchik certainty franki^ sjamaan Guest76570 jyujin mbishop peddie_ nothingHappens foof CaptainMorgan 07:25:30 -!- names: kencausey clog jimrees jmcphers araujo dmoerner mornfall ASau kilimanjaro Armageddon00 TR2N saccade minion specbot sad0ur tomaw_ REPLeffect_ gnomon Foofie Leonidas incwolf_ ray Axioplase_ dmpk2k tessier klutometis wastrel samth_away tltstc hosh cmatei Mr_Awesome_ dfeuer ineiros Adrinael brx lisppaste charleyb_ guenthr ve makmanalp WuJiang elf duncanm erg nicktastic tmitt felipe snorble bzzbzz C-Keen r0bby eli rotty incubot linas joast mrd` 07:25:30 -!- names: Khisanth emma zbrown tarbo nasloc__ yosafbridge dlouhy jay-mccarthy rapacity rdd roderic`` jayne 07:35:07 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:37:10 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:15 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:55:20 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:48 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:24 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 08:04:44 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:06:29 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.174] has joined #scheme 08:23:27 -!- bombshelter13b_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:52 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 08:24:05 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:46 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:26:56 hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #scheme 08:28:08 do you know how one can see how macros got expanded in scheme48? 08:29:33 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 08:38:42 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:39:10 hjk: maybe you can add a quote 08:39:31 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 08:40:03 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:14 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 08:41:29 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:16 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 08:42:19 hkBst: something weird like that: http://paste.lisp.org/display/92248 08:42:25 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.87.237] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:42:36 scheme48 has a low level macro system with explicit renaming 08:42:57 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 08:43:33 i know it should expand, and it works that way with some other scheme implementations 08:43:48 i think i could work it out if i knew how to see the expanded code 08:45:57 that explicit renaming thing is described in a clinger paper: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1317269&dl=GUIDE&coll=GUIDE&CFID=67080232&CFTOKEN=95144205 08:45:59 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yfgdjyh 08:47:07 i read the docs and the internet now for some time and i cannot find a thing like macro-expand 08:48:35 hjk: each scheme has its own methods. Can you paste your original code? 08:50:08 i took it from here: http://wmfarr.blogspot.com/2006/08/one-more-example-of-python-generators.html 08:50:10 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/r8b8t 08:50:24 but i removed the call-with-values 08:50:40 just a simple test for me if i am able to use the macro system 08:50:54 ASau`` [n=user@77.246.230.174] has joined #scheme 08:51:06 i would need syntax-case to capture the 'yield' i think, but scheme48 doesnt have one 08:52:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:33 i will try to reproduce that using syntax-rules... 08:53:05 hjk: You can capture by not renaming 08:53:24 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:53:25 i think i did not rename... 08:53:45 ah, you're right 08:55:07 but i could use syntax-rules and pass the 'yield' keyword through, working on that 08:56:28 Warning: the following toplevel variables are referenced but unbound: none 08:56:33 That's what Chicken tells me 08:56:37 oh yes 08:56:42 put there what you want 08:56:45 sorry 08:56:58 should just signal that the iteration is over 08:57:24 Yes, but it looks like you forgot to quote it 08:57:33 Or do you have none bound somewhere 08:57:35 ? 08:57:42 yes, at the toplevel 08:57:45 k 08:57:47 to a unique cons 08:58:22 a unique cons :) 08:58:30 i will get some coffee 08:59:36 It works here, both in Chicken and scheme48 08:59:59 #;7> (define x (nums-from 10)) 08:59:59 #;8> (x) 08:59:59 10 08:59:59 #;9> (x) 08:59:59 11 09:00:06 > (define x (nums-from 10)) 09:00:06 ; no values returned 09:00:06 > (x) 09:00:07 10 09:00:09 > (x) 09:00:11 11 09:00:15 First paste from Chicken, second from s48 09:00:16 strange... 09:00:44 i must have made a silly mistake, it seems 09:00:48 (define nums-from (fn/gen (n) (let loop ((i n)) (yield i) (loop (+ i 1))))) 09:03:08 hmm 09:03:10 it works 09:03:11 lol 09:04:46 but in my test environment, it doesnt (some other syntax definitions there) 09:04:52 thank you! 09:05:48 next time i will remember that... 09:06:20 you know: thinking that something cannot make a difference does not make differences go away 09:06:36 anyway, i can track the bug down now 09:06:56 hehe 09:06:58 Good luck! 09:07:07 thanks again 17:36:12 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 17:36:12 17:36:12 -!- names: ccl-logbot Riastradh jonrafkind bweaver nutmegmagi antoszka reprore mrsolo drwho JoelMcCracken x2cast ColonelJ MrFahrenheit xwl jlongster lisppaste XTL ray jayne Nshag langmartin cornucopic linas_ nothingHappens MichaelRaskin dfeuer kilimanjaro dpro schmir Jafet alaricsp Edico dzhus mario-goulart saccade_ zbigniew skampler bzzbzz r0bby incubot sjamaan C-Keen j0ni Pepe_ mornfall peddie adzuci george_ makmanal1 rstandy ecraven kniu incwolf 17:36:12 -!- names: leppie|work morphir xwl_` synx rudybot offby1 tjafk elly eno Kusanagi _Jordan__ chandler z0d Poeir tabe```` alexsuraci tizoc nowhere_man rmrfchik certainty jyujin mbishop foof CaptainMorgan kencausey clog jimrees araujo dmoerner ASau joast mrd` Khisanth emma zbrown tarbo nasloc__ yosafbridge dlouhy jay-mccarthy rapacity rdd roderic`` rotty eli snorble felipe tmitt nicktastic erg duncanm elf WuJiang ve guenthr charleyb_ brx Adrinael ineiros 17:36:12 -!- names: Mr_Awesome_ cmatei hosh tltstc samth wastrel klutometis tessier dmpk2k Axioplase_ Leonidas gnomon tomaw_ sad0ur specbot minion saccade TR2N Armageddon00 17:38:09 -!- cornucopic [n=amit@202.3.77.130] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:40:06 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:44:34 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 17:45:36 KernelJ [n=cipherja@78.147.120.46] has joined #scheme 17:45:36 -!- ColonelJ [n=cipherja@unaffiliated/colonelj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:45:40 Hey, man. 17:45:49 -!- KernelJ is now known as ColonelJ 17:45:53 eli, offby1: Thanks for your help. 17:45:57 :) I ran out of battery! 17:46:52 Seems hellyeah is gone now. 17:47:11 masm [n=masm@bl7-39-138.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:47:17 I'm a C guy and I'm curious as to why he thinks implementing a Scheme, in Scheme, would be easier than in C. 17:47:24 :P I've seen the light! 17:47:54 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:11 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.110.193] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:58:10 elderK: Implementing a scheme in scheme allows you to use all the underlying datatypes of the meta-scheme. If you write it in C, then you have basically two tough problems: 17:59:15 You have to make your own data types (large integers, etc.) and you have to decide how you're going to handle the stack. 17:59:32 Well, you don't need large integers. 17:59:52 The smart dumb way is to allocate stack frames on the heap 18:00:00 well... now that i think about it, that seconnd one's only a problem if you insist on using the C stack. If you're doing your own little machine, then it's no big deal. 18:00:02 Then it's automagic 18:00:27 It is automagic only if you have already written the automagic garbage collector -- unless, of course, you happen to have an infinite memory. 18:00:46 doh... thanks Riastradh... forgot that one. :-P 18:00:52 Jafet, aye but, out of curiosity, other than speed reasons, why is stackframes in some persistent space a bad idea? 18:00:54 and yo, Riastradh 18:01:10 Garbage collection is relatively easy I think, compared to packaging a stack for continuation 18:01:24 Well, the speed reason is bad enough 18:01:29 Either one can be as easy or as hard as you want to make it. 18:01:46 Consider that each function call involves a call to the allocator. 18:01:53 Jafet, that's the problem right there. 18:01:57 Who's allocator? 18:02:04 Boehm's! 18:02:06 I mean, there are millions of allocation methods. 18:02:41 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:42 Personally, though I'm good with C, I prefer other languages because coding in C is so tedious. 18:03:44 Aw, don't stop guys :D 18:03:49 This is an interesting conversation, at least, I feel so. 18:04:05 ^_^ I'm reading up on various methods for implementing continuations and suchlike as we speak 18:05:11 The canonical reference on that is Clinger, Hartheimer, and Ost, `Implementation Strategies for Continuations', although it has a couple of misleading, or even incorrect, parts. 18:06:29 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has joined #scheme 18:07:57 No, that's not right; I misremembered. Disregard my remark about misleading/incorrect parts. 18:08:33 fooey... That paper's behind a paywall. 18:08:45 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:09:38 Here's a copy: 18:09:38 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:42 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 18:10:03 Sorry, . 18:10:11 :-D Thank you very much. 18:10:28 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@230.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:12:43 Likewise, thank you Riastradh 18:15:04 If you implement Scheme atop C, though, there is more to be said, because C does not grant much control over its stack. The two most common approaches are trampolines, where the C stack is completely separate from the Scheme stack, and Cheney on the MTA, where the Scheme stack sits at the top of the C stack and is garbage-collected when the C stack is about to overflow. 18:22:07 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225063166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:24:17 Aye, I've read the Cheney on the MTA paper. 18:24:20 It was pretty cool :) 18:24:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet213-86.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #scheme 18:24:37 Riastradh, any chance you have any links on trampolines? 18:25:11 Basically, a trampoline is a jump 18:25:14 elderK: Try toysrus.com 18:26:08 Hahahahah 18:26:11 thanks sjamaan :D 18:26:14 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:26:56 So really, all that's going on is that two stacks are being maintained, one for C, one for Scheme. 18:27:02 the C one is left alone mostly. 18:27:08 the Scheme one is handled however you see fit. 18:27:32 I figure you'd have a ton more control in say, an interpreter, than a compiler. 18:27:36 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 18:27:54 They are equivalent. 18:27:55 :) I've yet to learn a great deal on compiler technology and techniques, so, I'll probably go through a bunch of toy interpreters first :) 18:29:36 Jafet, they are? 18:30:15 Why aren't they? 18:30:38 :) I guess it depends on whether your interpreter is written in the most obvious, naive way. 18:30:41 elderK, with a trampoline, rather than calling a procedure, you return the procedure to a dispatch loop (storing its arguments somewhere; e.g., on an explicit stack), which looks like: thunk_t procedure = start; while (1) procedure = (*procedure) (); 18:30:46 or whether it's running a virtual machine. 18:31:19 This way, no space accumulates on the C stack; the C stack just bounces up and down as control enters each procedure, which just returns a new one to enter. 18:31:50 A compiler simply has to produce an interpreter that happens to be specialized for the program given as input 18:32:32 And in that way you implement TCO, right Riastradh? 18:33:24 That's true, Jafet. And thanks Riastradh, for the description :) 18:33:58 Yes, masm: the object of this exercise is to attain finer control over the state of the control stack while still using C's control flow and without writing a local interpreter (that is, a dispatch loop of the form `interpret: switch (expression_type) { case REFERENCE: ...; case COMBINATION: ...; case LAMBDA: ... }'). 18:35:09 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:35:59 Riastradh: if I understand this right, by doing this, you could pretty much write the parser for it all, in C - recursively, provided you passed arguments and suchlike, via the trampoline, right? 18:36:00 Sure. I was confused because before you were talking about implementing continuations. 18:36:07 like, putting them where they should be explicitly, 18:36:17 dispatching to the function, returning the next function and so on. 18:36:22 pretty much infinitey? 18:36:25 *ly? 18:36:38 elderK, parser? 18:36:44 Well, you could run out of C stack, if I read that code correctly 18:37:15 Well, if you are going to write an interpreter in C, would you not need to destructure the input? 18:37:28 break it up into it's constituent peices, so you could do what was needed? 18:37:38 say, convert it to whatever your VM understands? 18:38:08 Yes, but that doesn't seem very related to implementing continuations and tail-calls 18:38:18 masm, this began with a question about how to implement continuations, about which I pointed to the C-H-O paper; then I remarked that about mapping these strategies onto C, there is more to be said. 18:38:19 I've been reading Expcetional Continuations in javaScript and thinking on using something like the Cheney on the MTA with it to implement TCO. 18:38:20 Good point, it's not :) 18:39:12 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Haskell 18:39:44 Oh, they removed the stack overflows 18:40:08 Basically, with the mechanism of that paper in place to implement first class continuations, one can ignore TCO and if the stack overflows, catch the exception and use the continautions mechanism to recover. 18:40:17 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:41:11 that or move the stack. 18:41:11 -!- morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:16 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 18:41:20 and restart the instruction stream. 18:41:31 at the point it faulted? 18:44:21 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 18:44:32 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-191-56.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:16 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-32-82-254-22-196.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:52 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:48:57 Jafet: Did you read the brainfuck article? http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Brainfuck 18:51:47 There isn't anything to read 18:52:03 perhaps that is the point? 18:52:15 it'd certainly go with the language's name 18:52:16 :) 18:53:15 -!- ColonelJ [n=cipherja@unaffiliated/colonelj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:53:15 KernelJ [n=cipherja@92.29.190.137] has joined #scheme 18:53:29 -!- KernelJ is now known as ColonelJ 18:53:54 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:44 It wouldn't surprise me if the text of that page were a valid program. That's actually waht brainfuck looks like. 18:55:25 sadly, though, it appears not to be a valid program. 18:59:02 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:00:08 Aw. 19:00:13 That's kind of anticlimactic. 19:00:13 lol 19:00:14 :P 19:00:28 I was all excited and everything 19:01:10 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:48 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.166.115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:31 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:03:31 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:39 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-105-70-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:05:13 -!- ColonelJ [n=cipherja@unaffiliated/colonelj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:05:14 KernelJ [n=cipherja@78.144.89.137] has joined #scheme 19:05:18 -!- KernelJ is now known as ColonelJ 19:13:55 george_ [n=george@189.107.219.55] has joined #scheme 19:16:38 hi (again) cheers foof ... 19:16:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:49 I was wondering why scheme-complete a) 19:17:08 doesn't fine all the completions in there and b) 19:17:22 why it never shows the doc strings 19:17:32 s/fine/find/ 19:26:33 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has joined #scheme 19:28:51 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:00 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has joined #scheme 19:30:04 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 19:40:14 ski [n=slj@c-b213e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:43:35 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:45:12 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:47:07 Night guys! 19:47:41 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 19:50:35 chupish 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