00:11:59 arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-239-96.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 00:12:05 Good evening everyone. 00:12:15 *arcfide* takes off his hat and settles in for a long night. 00:14:07 Does anyone use CASE-LAMBDA for any purpose other than (1) optional arguments, or (2) optionally optimizing (if the local Scheme system implements CASE-LAMBDA better than the reference implementation) the first k cases of n-ary reductions? 00:14:53 Riastradh: I do. 00:15:42 For what purpose? 00:17:38 Well, let's see, I'd have to think about what you mean exactly, but I don't think of my uses of CASE-LAMBDA in the terms that you mention. 00:17:53 At a time when my compiler did optimize this specifically, I used it to dispatch on the 0, 1 and n cases of / and -. 00:18:20 I definitely use it for optional arguments, of course, mostly for assigning default, but occassionally to allow the passing of a compound object instead of the individual components of those objects. 00:18:42 Then I was enlightened, and realized how stupid it was for a compiler to have an internal case-lambda form. 00:18:56 I also use it when doing tree transformations using Oleg's pre-post-order function. 00:19:09 I don't know under what case that falls. 00:19:34 Basically (CASE-LAMBDA [(childless) ...] [(node . kids) ...]). 00:19:48 Mostly so I don't have to check for the empty list myself. 00:21:35 Other than that, for the most part, I use case-lambda as an easy way to do static multiple forms of a procedure. Usually this is for optional arguments, but occassionally this results in somewhat different behavior beyond just providing a default. 00:21:44 I hope that this operation doesn't use APPLY to pass as many arguments as there are children of some arbitrary tree data structure. 00:22:00 Riastradh: That's a fairly long winded brain dump. Does that answer your question at all? 00:23:02 Riastradh, I've used it occasionally for functions which have different semantics depending on the arity 00:23:15 Why would you want a procedure to have different semantics depending on the arity? 00:23:33 often in cases like arcfide mentions (such as structures vs elements) 00:23:40 Why would you do that? 00:24:14 -!- saint_cypher_ [n=saint_cy@c-24-5-80-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:27 because it's convenient, sometimes 00:24:37 to have both versions 00:24:47 Riastradh: What do you mean about the APPLY comment? 00:24:55 and there's no reason not to put both versions in the same function 00:25:17 Riastradh: In a recent case, I have a variable structure and a procedure MERGE-VARIABLES that takes two different forms: (v1 v2) and (left right var). 00:25:51 samth, curious -- I'm not sure I've encountered this. Do you have an example? 00:25:51 I used case lambda to break these down into the case I wanted, which was (v1-left v1-right v2-left v2-right). 00:27:16 arcfide, can you identify what part of the APPLY comment is not clear? I was hoping that this was not due to code of the form (let ((tree (read-me-up-a-tree-from-a-malicious-user))) ... (apply procedure node (all-ten-thousand-children-of-this-node node)) ...). 00:28:18 Um, well, my code doesn't ever look like that...I think.l 00:28:47 arcfide, I meant the code with an interface that led you to use (case-lambda ((childless-node) ...) ((childful-node . children) ...)). 00:29:03 Oh...let's see.... 00:29:55 Riastradh, I can't find my good example for that at the moment 00:29:58 the perils of grep 00:30:03 but here are two others: 00:30:38 1. when one optional argument is not allowed without another, `case-lambda' is a good fit (better than any generic opt-args system I've seen) 00:31:07 2. I have a function which takes either one simple argument, for the easy case, or 3 more complex arguments 00:31:14 Riastradh: There are a lot of APPLYs in Oleg's function. 00:31:17 and the first argument types do not overlap 00:31:52 case-lambda is also awesome for obfuscating code! 00:32:16 samth, do you have any specific examples of these? Both categories you describe sound like a confusing choices of interface to me, which would be better served by having separate procedures, with different names, for the different operations. 00:32:52 s/a confusing choices/confusing choices/1 00:32:53 arcfide pasted "Example use of CASE-LAMBDA" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92051 00:32:54 Riastradh, i do have specific examples, but they're really down in the weeds of the implementation of Typed Scheme 00:33:05 so I doubt that showing you the code would be helpful 00:33:28 I suspect it's just a difference of opinion as to whether it's confusing to have the two versions share a name 00:33:45 ie, some people like overloading, some don't 00:33:59 samth, no, real examples are good, but perhaps it would be easier to point at a URI in a Subversion browser than to send code to lisppaste. 00:34:22 Riastradh: That was me. 00:34:37 arcfide, hmm? Yes, I know you sent the most recent lisppaste. 00:34:47 Riastradh: Since you are, I am sure, not really interested in reading a Noweb file from where that code came. 00:34:48 Okay. 00:35:37 Riastradh: I'm sure you are familiar with this, but the PRE-POST-ORDER that I use is from here: . 00:36:21 Riastradh, for the second, look here : http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/typed-scheme/types/utils.ss and search for 'define ret' and look at the last two cases 00:36:25 Well, I guess it does do exactly what I hoped it didn't. 00:36:26 I have an example like samth is mentioning. 00:36:36 the next-to-last case is only there to make the contract system happy 00:37:06 ...what are `t', `f', `o', `ret', `dty', `tc', `mk', and `dbound' all supposed to mean? 00:37:39 Riastradh, this is why I didn't think that giving you the code examples would be helpful 00:38:08 as for an example of the first case, go here http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/typed-scheme/types/abbrev.ss and look for `make-pred-ty' 00:38:14 that one may be simpler to understand 00:38:23 Yow. Do you have some policy against using complete English words in that code or something? 00:39:06 the point of the other example is that the 4 argument case is illegal, although the 3 and 5 argument cases are legal 00:39:38 arcfide annotated #92051 "Another example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92051#1 00:39:58 Riastradh, sometimes concision is a virtue 00:40:13 Riastradh: Obviously that's not the whole thing, but that shows the use of 'case-lambda'. Arguably, a better interface would be to wrap those up in some sort of "type" structure. 00:40:23 i won't claim that code is easy to understand, but that isn't the reason why 00:40:28 Yes, if you're trying to keep the reader of your program confused and in the dark, using illegibly terse names is a good start... 00:40:32 Those being the extra non-default arguments. 00:41:31 However, it's much easier for us to play with this version. 00:42:05 Especially since "dty" is used in an error message sent back to the user. 00:42:48 foof, that's an internal error, and thus one that only I need to understand 00:43:05 Why? 00:43:25 samth Please tell me you are joking... 00:43:39 Because no one else will _ever_ modify or debug this code? :) 00:44:12 if you want to modify or debug the code, you'll need to figure out the naming conventions first 00:44:17 that shouldn't be so surprising 00:45:09 arcfide, is it meaningful to pass only either two arguments or all six to TREE-DIFF, or would it also be meaningful to pass a subset of the arguments, using the defaults for the rest? 00:47:46 Riastradh: Generally speaking, those extra arguments are fairly intricately tied to one another, so, not really. You could contrive a situation where it might be convenient to only pass one or the other of those, but in general you they are a set of related procedures that are passed together, and it is highly unlikely that any random procedure passed to in the middle will be correct with the rest at their default. 00:49:21 (D-S/C? P/C? It doesn't look like more than two cases of RET are ever used, and each one is used only once, incidentally.) 00:49:24 The other interface that would make sense would be something like what you have done for skip-lists, where there are skip-list types that store all the related procedures, and you just pass that type record. 00:50:14 s/store/contain/ 00:50:17 I've seen optional arg systems that let you have a flag variable specifying whether a given parameter was passed. In such a case, just checking (if (and param:n? (not param:n+1?)) (error ...)) would be more concise, letting you share the body between cases. 00:50:17 arcfide, so there's conceptually one aggregate parameter, the parts of which are not really independent? 00:51:39 Riastradh: Not really independent, but it is useful for us who are working on this to be able to tweak one quickly, which is why we have them separated out. 00:51:59 Actually, I think it would be best to add one more case there, of two arguments, one being a type that contains the aggregate paramter as you call it. 00:52:12 (Three?) 00:52:47 Three? 00:53:02 You already have a case for two arguments -- did you mean a case for three arguments? 00:53:20 So, tree-diff would actually be a procedure that takes either two, three, or six arguments. 00:53:27 Oh, yes, I did mean of three arguments. 00:53:29 OK. 00:53:29 Sorry. 00:54:07 I don't know if you consider this a sufficiently convincing example. 00:55:19 Riastradh, `d-s/c' and `p/c' are versions of `define-struct/contract' and `provide/contract' that statically check a flag for whether the contracts should be included 00:55:41 also, `ret' is provided for the module, and used widely in the rest of the code 00:55:54 s/for/from/ 00:56:13 Widely used? It's not provided at all! 00:56:16 ...oh, I see. 00:56:23 P/C provides it, OK. 00:56:33 (I was guessing maybe `print with contract' or something.) 00:56:41 elderK [i=cb61cb4f@gateway/web/freenode/x-fhsnglwmqyitenmx] has joined #scheme 00:56:48 Hey people! 00:56:48 (`Print your name and sign on the line below, please.) 00:57:02 '...uh oh. I've misbalanced my quotes and parentheses. 00:57:22 :P did someone crash the universe again? 00:57:59 Riastradh, you are sentenced to 20 complicated emacs paren-balance-preserving operations 00:58:14 M-x check-parens RET M-x check-parens RET M-x check-parens RET M-x check-parens RET... 01:00:46 Riastradh: might I ask what motivated the original inquiry about CASE-LAMBDA? 01:06:19 Yesterday TR2N asked about the way that MIT Scheme pretty-prints arity-dispatched procedures, which prompted me to think about CASE-LAMBDA. 01:07:43 Interesting. I don't recally you using case-lambda, you prefer to use that other optional define syntax, right? 01:07:54 I forget what it was exactly. 01:08:03 I seldom write procedures with optional parameters. 01:08:51 Generally I do so only to conform with an existing API. 01:10:06 Incidentally, it occurs to me that the last time I did that, in , the existing API (e.g., MUTEX-UNLOCK!) exhibits substantially different behaviour depending on the number of arguments. 01:11:41 But I think three, or at least two, separate procedures would have been clearer in the original API for the operations of unlocking a mutex, waiting on a condition variable and unlocking a mutex, and waiting on a condition variable subject to a timeout and unlocking a mutex. 01:14:13 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 01:18:54 Riastradh: The timeout naturally belongs as an option to the wait, so I would say at most two procedures are called for. 01:21:46 -!- Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 01:25:24 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 01:28:11 -!- elderK [i=cb61cb4f@gateway/web/freenode/x-fhsnglwmqyitenmx] has quit ["Page closed"] 01:35:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:37:44 flonum [n=ben@24-138-98-167.zing-net.ca] has joined #scheme 01:38:59 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 01:47:56 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:22 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:55:54 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-26-181.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:39 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:59 chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:35 does anyone here have familiarity with implementing scheme? 01:57:52 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-254.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:59:57 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:19 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:32 anyone awake? 02:03:01 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-33-119.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:42 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:04:58 *mejja* loves a good ponzi scheme 02:05:57 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-106-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #scheme 02:08:36 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:29 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:10:30 well, anywho, I've been reading An Intro to Scheme and its Implementation 02:10:49 very great, except it's not finished and never will be 02:11:10 so I'm looking for a resource that picks up where it leaves off 02:11:23 can anyone point me to something? 02:11:46 all of the C implementations of scheme I've found are horrendous 02:12:22 *mejja* agrees 02:16:41 *cky* wants to write a Scheme implementation in CWEB, just to get the hang of literate programming. :-P 02:17:27 chocho: http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html & http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html 02:18:04 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:07 *chocho* looks @ link 02:20:01 holy crap @ first link 02:20:07 is that actually a complete book? 02:24:55 -!- Algorithmist [n=Algorith@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:22 ah, looks like it 02:25:37 katie11 [i=PLTBot@adsl-70-142-41-94.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:46 cky: I write a lot of Literate Scheme. 02:26:04 ok, I think I'll be fine to implement Scheme in C++ so long as I have the necessary resources 02:26:18 chocho: Why don't you implement Scheme in Scheme? 02:26:41 it's a very custom implementation 02:28:01 i suppose also that if I already had a scheme where I needed it, I'd just use it instead :) 02:31:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:32:05 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:34:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:40 chocho: If C++ is a must, maybe look at mosh-scheme and ypsilon 02:35:14 -!- samth [n=samth@dhc023782.med.harvard.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:35 http://code.google.com/p/mosh-scheme/ && http://www.littlewingpinball.net/mediawiki/index.php/Ypsilon 02:37:00 -!- Caitlyn [i=PLTBot@adsl-70-142-41-94.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:38:09 *chocho* takes a look 02:38:20 if the code for these is readable, that would be awesome 02:38:33 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-90.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:40:48 -!- flonum [n=ben@24-138-98-167.zing-net.ca] has left #scheme 02:41:29 arcfide: when you say "literate scheme," do you mean that you use interweaving documentation that's extracted out as pdf, etc.? 02:41:37 or is it a reference to comment-richness 02:42:07 mosh is absolutely fucking horrible code 02:42:30 well, some of it anyways 02:42:42 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:43:10 mm... I guess it's readable-ish 02:47:13 offby1`` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:20 ah fa chrissakes... what is it about lispers / schemer can't write decent C/C++ code? 02:48:07 anyone who has worked through sicp, do you actually get to do the picture exercises in chapter 2, or does that depend on some special implementation of scheme? 02:48:43 chocho pasted "look at this horrible code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92053 02:48:54 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 02:48:55 rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:05 good christ 02:49:05 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:49:32 emma: plt seems to have a package for it http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/soegaard/sicp.plt/2/1/planet-docs/sicp-manual/index.html 02:49:34 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/pzb6xw 02:49:48 emma: I just realised that's clearly not what you're asking, nm 02:51:15 chocho: is that python? 02:51:22 C++ 02:52:03 sadly, this is the cleanest implementation of scheme in C/C++ that I've found yet 02:52:10 and it's god awful 02:53:10 Most sane implementors write the scheme reader in scheme... 02:53:57 implementing a reader in C++ is not difficult 02:54:11 it takes, maybe, twice the amount of code as it does it scheme 02:54:29 if done cleanly, that is 02:54:45 ... more like retarded if you ask me 02:55:09 why? 02:56:01 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:57 Time will teach you if you stick around long enough 02:57:13 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:58:19 are you saying the C++ lacks the necessary abstraction facilities to code it succinctly? 02:59:09 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:13 -!- offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Success] 03:01:29 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:01:34 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:01:56 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:01 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:02:32 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:57 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 03:07:01 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:07:56 Daemmerung: falafel is not made of dough -- even google knows that. 03:08:08 well, I suppose I'll be learning the hard, long, drawn out way 03:08:30 seems how I learn most things anyhow 03:12:27 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-224.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:14:07 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:29 klutometis: When I say Literate Scheme, I do mean Scheme in the somewhat Knuthian style of Literate Programming, wherein code and documentation are interweaved together and a PDf document for reading is generated. 03:14:44 arcfide: Nice, nice. :-) 03:14:49 I do have a few more rules for myself when writing Literate Scheme though, and I am sometimes lazy about it. 03:14:57 arcfide: So, you have Scheme equivalents of CWEB? 03:15:04 Many times the comments are just to remember what I was thinking when I wrote that bug of a program. 03:15:22 cky: No, I haven't cared enough to write the appropriate filters necessary to get Scheme pretty-printing in Noweb. 03:15:39 Awww.... :-P 03:15:48 -!- rudybot__ is now known as rudybot 03:16:00 cky: There is a lisp pretty-printer, and SLaTeX has something like that. 03:16:46 I have been experimenting with the dangers of Literate programming as well, such as breaking lexical scoping, and trying to decide whether it is *ever* worth it to create a chunk "out of scope". 03:16:46 -!- offby1`` is now known as offby1 03:17:32 I've seen CWEB programs that do it, but even then, I think it pays to do it in a very controlled fashion. 03:18:25 cky: Well, remember that CWEB is for C, which lacks a number of abstraction techniques which are very easily realized in Scheme. When I have the choice, I prefer to abstract in Scheme, rather than to rely on Noweb to do that for me. 03:18:41 *nods* Totally agree. 03:19:09 At any rate, I have just written (within the last week) some terribly aweful Scheme code for time sake. 03:19:40 So, I'm in my "abstraction be hanged" mode at the moment while I try to push some code out the door. 03:19:42 Any practice is good practice. :-) 03:26:03 I have (something 3 5 (range 10 12)) and I want to expand that, syntax phase to (3 5 10 11 12) 03:26:42 Huh? 03:26:51 (syntax-case form () (#'(_ (range start end)) ... 03:27:02 *cky* thinks...writing RANGE using CL-style macros would be so easy.... :-P 03:27:37 I mean I want anyone running the code to only see (3 5 10 11 12) not have to calculate and flatten the ranges. 03:27:48 I have to specify the numbers hard-coded anyway, so may as well expand them in the syntax phase. 03:27:56 synx: Are you saying that you have a macro 'something' that you want to expand to its arguments except when an argument is of the form (range x y) where you want that piece to be replaced by the arguments consisting of the integer values from x to y inclusive? 03:28:15 yes, exactly arcfide 03:28:21 synx: You could expect the compiler to do constant propagation and constant folding. 03:28:49 foof pasted "ret w/o case-lambda" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92055 03:28:54 could I? hm... 03:29:42 I don't know if (make-immutable-hash) is included in that propagation process. 03:31:38 Considering that even literal constant numbers are not yet numbers in the syntax phase, I don't think you can do much math on them... 03:32:39 syntax->datum would turn it into a number though? 03:33:19 synx: You generally can't do that -- but you can override `#%app' and have it look for these ranges. 03:33:56 override #%app now I'm scared o.O 03:34:43 Overriding `#%app' is far less scary than you think. 03:36:22 Is there any documentation on how to do it? 03:36:50 or an example maybe? 03:38:04 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:18 #lang scheme/base (provide (rename-out [my-app #%app])) (define-syntax my-app ) 03:38:25 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has left #scheme 03:38:32 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-254.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:35 But it's better to use this as a new language module 03:39:00 The only change would be that the above module provides everything from `scheme/base' except for `#%app'. 03:39:25 make an entirely new language, just to expand (range 10 12)? 03:39:40 Yes. 03:40:19 "make an entirely new language" also looks more intimidating than it is. 03:40:46 #lang scheme/base (provide (rename-out [my-app #%app]) (except-out (all-from-out scheme/base) #%app)) (define-syntax my-app ) 03:40:48 There. 03:42:56 It's the that I'm confused on really. How would you do the "normal" #%app except when it's (range ...)? 03:44:13 You want to scan the sequence of subexpressions, and do some expansion when you see a `range' expression. 03:45:16 Note, BTW, that I didn't say whether I think your original thing makes sense or not... It's questionable to extend the language with a second-class form. 03:45:31 synx: If you are willing to allow range only in a specific macro like you said above, the following works: 03:46:16 arcfide pasted "range" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92057 03:46:30 synx: I think that's far from ideal code, though. 03:47:14 true enough... but thanks arcfide. 03:47:36 Oh, and it does have some bugs in it. :-) 03:52:52 tjaway [n=timj@e176212051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:28 would that expand (3 4 (range 5 8) 9 10 11) to (3 4 . (append (5 6 7 8) (9 10 11))? 03:53:46 *eli* sighs 03:54:28 synx: It fails in that case, feel free to fix away. :-) 03:55:02 synx: And no, this is only if you have the macro (something 3 4 (range 5 8) 9 10 11). 03:56:26 the cheeky monkey 03:56:53 synx: Also, having something that relies on literal input for the macro indicates that something is probably amiss. 03:57:10 hm... 03:59:43 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:00:40 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176202118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:05 rudybot: init http://tmp.barzilay.org/x 04:02:06 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x" sandbox is ready 04:02:23 rudybot: eval (list 1 2 (range 10 15) 3 4 (range 20 25)) 04:02:23 eli: error: eval:1:10: range: invalid outside of applications in: (range 10 15) 04:03:05 synx: Well, I don't know what rudybot's problem is but that file does what you want with applications. 04:10:17 thanks, eli... I can almost understand what you're doing there. 04:10:51 What's not clear? 04:10:53 It's like what arcfide said, except instead of "only in a specific macro" you're doing it in the whole module. 04:11:20 never understood how with-syntax worked. 04:11:38 Do you know how `(x ,y z) works? 04:12:49 Yes. 04:14:14 So think about (with-syntax ([foo whatever]) #'(x y foo z)) as an alternative way to write #'(x y #,whatever z) 04:14:31 (Ugh, #` in the last one.) 04:15:36 That is, inside (syntax ...stuff...) or #'(...stuff...) most things are quoted except for pattern variables, and with-syntax creates one of these variables, 04:15:48 you can also think about it in terms of how it's implemented 04:16:40 (with-syntax ([foo whatever]) #'(x y foo z)) would be roughly similar to (syntax-case whatever () [foo #'(x y foo z)]) 04:17:37 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:18:09 So when the syntax #'foo passes in as whatever, it produces #'(x y foo z), but otherwise nothing? 04:18:38 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has quit ["leaving"] 04:18:45 #'(x1 x2 x3) is usually like '(x1 x2 x3) 04:18:58 Except that some of them can be bound as patterns 04:19:00 is lambda calculus the basis of greater composability? 04:19:32 `syntax-case' (and therefore `with-syntax') is a way to get these bindings. 04:22:02 look at this -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/drscheme/+bug/496406 04:25:18 emma, fix is in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=513390 04:25:40 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [] 04:32:26 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:28 arcfide: are you using some kind of home-brew system to comment scheme and extract the pdf; or is there one available? 04:34:41 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-224.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:35:27 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:48:23 klutometis: I am using noweb. 04:49:13 klutometis: You can see some of the code at . 04:49:46 I have a Makefile to generate things the way I like, but that's about it. 04:50:07 I have a noweb pretty-printer on my list of todosomedays. 04:50:43 The file that has seen the most work is the sockets code in arcfide/sockets* 04:50:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:03 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:11 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:33 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:03:46 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:00 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:35:38 hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #scheme 05:38:37 arcfide: damn google chrome for not supporting gopher; damn wget for that matter, too 05:39:49 CURSE YOU, RED BARON 05:40:03 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:40:42 klutometis: incredible, though; it wouldn't have dawned on me to use feral noweb: i was actually considering writing some ad-hoc schemedoc from scratch 05:40:55 offby1: heh; more like: FABULOUS RAINBOW BARON 05:41:53 or BLUE-RED-YELLOW-BLUE-GREEN-RED BARON 05:44:28 arcfide: see above 05:49:03 -!- chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"] 05:49:37 klutometis: Well, noweb is language independent, and I wanted to write in Scheme and TeX. Most of the other systems were LaTeX/HTML and some other programming language. 05:49:57 klutometis: Were you able to get the code? If not, I can send you a sampling, or just send you the file. 05:50:06 Or you can grab it off of the Monotone VCS. 05:52:15 arcfide: yeah, just had to fire up firefox 05:52:30 arcfide: could i bother you to post a "me, too" here, btw? http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=11345 05:52:46 trying to get as much noise as possible for a gopher-in-chrome movement 05:53:29 although it looks like the bastards pretty much WONTFIXed it 05:53:45 klutometis: Do I need a good account? 05:53:56 klutometis: You can always mention my page as a resource you want to browse. ;-) 05:54:05 oh, good point 05:54:12 s/good/google/ 05:54:40 some sort of account seems requisite to posting, unfortunately 05:54:41 You can also mention that even Opera supports gopher, even if it doesn't render it directly. 05:55:04 interesting; what indirect means does it use to render it, some sort of proxy? 05:55:26 It recognizes Gopher URLs and uses the proxy that you define. Just like setting up an HTTP proxy. 05:55:35 Actually, it's on the same preference page, even. 05:55:48 I think Squid is my current proxy. 05:56:09 Someone here mentioned writing a proxy specifically for Gopher, and I would like to do that if I find some time. :-) 05:56:34 klutometis: At any rate, use Opera; Chrome isn't worth it. ;-) 05:57:15 arcfide: i've only been on it for about 48 hours; it's not spectacular, but it's fast. i might indeed revisit opera (it's been about 7 years). 05:57:42 keep us posted on your gopher proxy, if you get around to it, please 05:57:55 Hehe, yeah, you might want to revisit. :-) I have a couple of blog posts about using Opera too. My classmates and I use it all the time for collaboration, with Opera Unite. 05:58:13 klutometis: Well, you'll probably see an updated and easier to use Descot first. 06:01:58 arcfide: hmm; i'm vacillating between http://mrsarcfide.blogspot.com/ and http://my.opera.com/arcfide/blog/ as the location of your blog 06:02:16 incubot: i'd probably choose the latter; what do you say, oracle? 06:02:21 which is why you should choose the smallest meaningful unit 06:03:12 klutometis: I'm the Opera blog, the blogspot is my wife's. 06:04:05 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:07 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:05:33 arcfide: congratulations on reproducing and scheming simultaneously (it's tough); and congratulations to her for bringing the baby to the library (that's gutsy). 06:06:15 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:08:56 ;-) 06:12:18 chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:42 can someone tell me what this notation represents? 06:12:42 x[x := r] = r; 06:12:53 (it's some sort of mathematical notation) 06:12:59 (not scheme) 06:13:39 I got it from here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus 06:17:20 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 06:19:11 Is that the notation for substitution? 06:19:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:37 I think that's usually x[x \ r] or x[x / r]. 06:20:07 The general form of this, chocho, is, I think, exp[v \ r] meaning to observe every occurance of v in exp and replace it with r. 06:20:32 -!- jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:21:42 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:22:23 k 06:22:27 *chocho* tries to think 06:23:07 (a b c d a b)[a \ r] = (r b c d r b). 06:25:34 k, thx all 06:25:42 -!- chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet"] 06:27:39 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:30:26 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:34:09 jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:42:15 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 06:43:18 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:48 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 06:46:16 eli: I know of no name other than "dough" for the uncooked precursor to falafel. 06:47:43 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 07:01:33 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:02:46 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #scheme 07:05:09 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-230-252.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection 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#scheme 10:13:28 elderK [n=zk@125-236-160-147.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:13:36 Hey guys 10:17:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:00 HG` [n=HG@xdslhf050.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:28:29 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 10:34:29 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-76-181.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:38:37 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 10:48:46 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:48:55 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:50:01 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:33 sku [n=sk@93.190.182.68] has joined #scheme 11:00:32 foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-26-181.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 11:04:13 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 11:26:24 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:29:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:19 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 11:33:09 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-148-175.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 11:33:39 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 11:36:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@158.223.51.72] has joined #scheme 11:38:19 Morning all 11:39:26 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:42:04 if all goes well, I'll spend today with PLT's parsertools lex and yacc 11:46:54 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91757.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:56:27 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:43 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A91757.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:51 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:09:55 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 12:10:20 rstandy` 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underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:47:50 I've been working with 1) Alg Data Types and 2) Extensible Records (Cardelli, et.al.) I'm wondering if there are any packages of macros/routines that implement either one of these. I'm a PLT'er. Mucho thanks at 7:45 AM EDT 12:50:26 nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:26 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:41 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 12:57:43 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 13:06:03 samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:16 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:11:26 boscop [n=unknown@f055060229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 13:12:12 -!- nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:20:14 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@140-182-239-96.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["Sleep!"] 13:23:35 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhf050.osnanet.de] 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[n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [] 14:59:27 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:02:06 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:04:08 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:52 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:08:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@158.223.51.72] has joined #scheme 15:08:40 is using append very costly and should be avoided? 15:09:05 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 15:09:27 emma: you can use cons and reverse when you are done 15:09:59 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 15:10:18 emma: ah don't reverse just cons 15:10:42 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:01 C-Keen: i am writing this program to try to get all the ordered tripples of natural numbers less than or equal to n. I already made one for all such ordered pairs. 15:11:09 C-Keen: can I show you on a pastebin? 15:11:14 emma: sure 15:13:22 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:14:25 emma pasted "cons vs append" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92077 15:15:23 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-60-206.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:16:12 C-Keen: there's the paste. when i replace append with cons, it gives me a list lke (((1 1 1), (1 1 2) , ..... )((2 1 1) .. ))) rather than a list of tripples. 15:17:24 i just realized that should not say 'list of 5 lists' that should say list of n lists. 15:20:47 The funny thing to me is that cons really doesn't work the same as append. 15:21:12 there should be a version of cons that works like prepend, and a version of append that works like post-cons. 15:23:58 rmsc [n=rmsc@a85-139-194-125.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 15:24:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:29 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:29:40 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:33:11 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 15:47:04 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-106-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:27 masm [n=masm@bl10-245-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 15:49:04 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 15:52:09 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 15:53:03 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90A57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 15:53:51 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:58:15 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:44 chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:48 s 15:58:55 so, I don't understand 15:59:19 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:21 after Lisp was created, why did people continue to use C languages? 15:59:55 how have we gone so many decade without embracing the lambda calculus? 16:00:31 they couldn't abandon C because it wasn't invented... 16:00:35 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90A57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:39 arg, I mean algol-like languages 16:03:38 tho I suppose, even more specifically, fortran-like languages 16:07:00 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 16:20:48 "compile: access from an uncertified context to unexported variable from module". What? 16:22:44 rotty_ [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 16:22:44 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 16:22:44 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:22:44 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:25:35 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:41 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:09 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:34:17 C-Keen: I completely re-worked it with a completely different approach :) 16:36:13 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:43 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 16:38:23 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@67.41.108.251] has joined #scheme 16:44:50 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:03 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:10 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:35 SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 16:50:25 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:50:27 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:06 leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has joined #scheme 16:55:13 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 16:57:58 Here is a generalization of what I was trying to accomplish. It seems like it isn't very efficient though since my computer cannnot handle (cart-prod 10 10) for example --- http://paste.lisp.org/display/92084 16:58:05 C-Keen: ^ 16:58:43 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:59:28 Daemmerung: "mixture"? 17:01:35 Dr_Venture [n=D@ip68-103-87-15.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:20 maybe someone could tell me, in the paste I just posted, why is drscheme returning the list as a vertical list as if there were a newline after every element of the list? 17:03:20 i would also like to figure out how to accomplish the same thing using just cons, because someone told me that append is much less efficient than cons. 17:03:39 -!- Dr_Venture [n=D@ip68-103-87-15.ks.ok.cox.net] has left #scheme 17:04:37 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-76-181.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:38 emma: it's the behavior of pretty-print. There are no actual newlines in the list. 17:09:21 ah okay 17:09:47 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 17:11:17 synx: what do you think of this procedure? When a person is making procedures like this, how much should they worry if it becomes usless for large values of the parameters? 17:11:57 I know that a good programmer should care about resources but maybe the cartesian product of 10 copies of {1,2,3,....10} is just pretty big so you shouldn't worry. 17:13:09 emma 17:13:11 Sometimes I seem to do things in a brute force way. I need to try to be more clever. 17:13:17 hi chocho 17:13:30 don't optimize until you have a demonstrable need :) 17:14:00 what is chad ochocinco doing in #scheme? 17:14:01 simplicity should be the default until proven inadequate 17:14:14 imho :) 17:14:50 chocho: are you chad ochocinco? 17:15:40 Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:15:42 nah 17:15:49 I'm the chocho the cheeky monkey 17:15:58 aw man and i was so excited 17:16:11 well, we can still pretend :) 17:16:21 masm, how many elements are in the cartesian product of a ten-element list with itself? 17:16:26 I don't know who chad ochocinco is. 17:16:33 northeast... oak... grove, and oh choke hoe. 17:16:35 ...ten times, that is. 17:16:42 Riastradh: 10^10 17:17:03 The question was for masm, emma, but OK. Now how many bytes can a machine with a 32-bit memory address? 17:17:24 incubot: watch out for Chad 89 17:17:28 This is a guess now but 2^32 ? 17:17:29 needs me to watch him eat every so often 17:17:38 That question was also for masm, emma... 17:17:48 really? 17:17:51 who is masm ? 17:18:14 The chap who was talking about taking the tenfold cartesian product of a ten-element list to begin with. 17:18:16 Riastradh: is PAE enabled? 17:18:19 But OK, never mind. 17:18:25 Riastradh: I was the one trying to make a cartesian product of sets with itself procedure. 17:18:31 emma, now, how are these two numbers, 10^10 and 2^32, related? 17:18:49 emma, sorry, I see: I read too little of the log. 17:19:05 ...oh! 17:19:07 No, I misread the log. 17:19:09 Apologies again. 17:19:17 rudybot: eval (> (expt 10 10) (expt 2 #x10)) 17:19:17 synx: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 17:19:17 synx: ; Value: #t 17:19:21 `masm' and `emma' are clearly too close for my eyes to distinguish in this light. 17:19:56 *Riastradh* lowers some shades. 17:20:03 :) 17:20:07 emma -> same -> masm 17:20:11 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:20:26 See? Totally the same. 17:20:53 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:21:16 -!- davazp [n=user@79.Red-79-159-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:39 perhaps this was a rotate right and the s was stuck in the carry bit 17:22:08 Riastradh: i see, so there are more results in 10^10 than there are bytes that can be addressed. 17:22:47 That's right, emma, if your machine is a 32-bit machine. 17:22:53 yeah it is. 17:23:07 And each element will usually occupy more than a byte of storage, too. 17:23:13 you could, however, address the same place more than once, so not all 10^10 iterations need to have a unique address. 17:24:11 if you're examining the same thing 10 times, your algorithm probably needs work... 17:24:27 Riastradh: so on the whole is this a 'reasonable' way to implement a procedure that finds the cartesian product of d copies of {1,2,3,4,...n}, in your opinion? or is it rube goldberg? 17:24:44 someone told me it was retarded to write a scheme reader in C/C++ 17:24:50 can anyone elaborate as to why? 17:25:13 And the list itself usually requires at least 4 * 2 * n bytes of storage (and sometimes 4 * 3 * n) for n elements. 17:25:26 emma, well, what do you want to do with the cartesian product? 17:25:27 emma: if you only need one product at a time, it's just base-n addition, with n digits. 17:26:06 0 0 0 0 ... 0 -> n n n n .. n-1 -> n n n n ... n 17:26:11 Riastradh: for my ultimate purpose this is definitely a workable procedure. I was just trying to make a nice general procedure as a side challenge. 17:27:23 i really only need to come up with the cartesian product of 3 copies of {1,2,3..,n} so I can use those tripples, as a 'signal' and filter that signal, to get out desired tripples. 17:27:30 it's an idea from SICP i was reading about. 17:27:39 To treat sequences as signals and then filter them and such. 17:28:19 triples 17:28:33 once I have a list of all possible tripples where the entries are from {1,2,3..n} then I can do stuff like find pythagorean triples and such. 17:28:52 synx, by triples i mean like (2 3 4) 17:31:35 seems weird... I'd probably use lazy logic to get only the triples I needed, and forget about signal processing it. 17:32:03 do you know what i mean by signal processing ? 17:32:27 it's from the sicp book. 17:33:28 what do you mean by lazy logic? 17:33:35 chocho: i could elaborate as to why not ! 17:38:00 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:37 plz do 17:50:16 has anyone thought of turning "An Introduction to Scheme and its Implementation" into a wiki so it can be completed? 17:50:44 synx: what do you mean by lazy logic? 17:51:44 slimy_lotus2 [n=Adium@cuscon153273.tstt.net.tt] has joined #scheme 17:52:26 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 17:52:46 eli: slop. glop. mulch. pulp. 17:52:56 #lang scheme/lazy 17:53:07 ...or liberal use of stuff in scheme/promise 17:57:54 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:04 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #scheme 18:10:48 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:18 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 18:18:41 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:25:51 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@67.41.108.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-yerbobdtkxqlaysk] has joined #scheme 18:28:31 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-159-177.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:06 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:30:47 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-12-180.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:14 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:41:10 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet101-86.mobile.CARNet.hr] has joined #scheme 18:45:05 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:37 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:47 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:25 Hezy_ [n=Hezy@62.56.254.172] has joined #scheme 18:51:50 -!- Hezy_ [n=Hezy@62.56.254.172] has left #scheme 18:53:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@158.223.51.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:06 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90140.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:58:23 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 19:00:30 leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has joined #scheme 19:00:55 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:07:40 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:09 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@adsl-99-2-72-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:20 quantumEd [n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:17:43 Is there anything I can do to get rid of "compile: access from an uncertified context to unexported variable from module" while keeping the code that is causing this error? 19:18:09 Like, maybe, certify the context. :) 19:18:51 syntax-recertify ? 19:20:13 D'oh. I was searching to syntax-certify. 19:21:20 hehe, well if you just search for "certify" then it should find syntax-recertify 19:21:26 Yes. 19:21:34 Noticed that now. 19:25:38 -!- drewfer [n=drewfer@67.58.77.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:56 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has quit [] 19:30:39 aintme [n=Miranda@29.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:32:09 Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:27 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 19:39:13 What does it mean to recertify syntax? 19:42:33 leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.194] has joined #scheme 19:45:52 Riastradh: Are you asking why one would want to use `syntax-recertify', or what syntax certificates are in the first place? 19:47:07 The latter. 19:47:39 I read , and it's still completely opaque to me what the general purpose of this mechanism is. 19:47:52 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-148.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:48:05 how about this http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/stx-certs.html 19:54:05 OK...that makes a little more sense, although it does not motivate the concept; presumably there was some unbelievably hairy collection of macros that had problems to which no solution presented itself but this complicated mechanism? 19:55:12 im not sure exactly, but it seems like a security mechanism rather than a solution to some problem. that is, it patches up a security hole rather than providing more functionality 19:55:56 Riastradh: The general problem is maintaining abstractions: if you have a macro that expands to a mention of an internal name, you could grab such an expansion and grab that reference so you can use the internal function directly. 19:56:19 So certificates can be used to make the reference valid only inside the macro that created it. 20:00:44 -!- Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 20:01:12 -!- quantumEd [n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #scheme 20:03:30 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 20:13:11 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:41 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:14:44 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:00 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@29.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Miranda IM! 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Does sbank support PLT, like spells does? 22:29:06 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 22:29:25 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:29:50 slimy_lotus3 [n=Adium@cuscon124952.tstt.net.tt] has joined #scheme 22:31:11 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:34:31 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:01 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 22:36:19 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:39:51 -!- slimy_lotus2 [n=Adium@cuscon153273.tstt.net.tt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:44:50 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 22:50:03 -!- rmsc [n=rmsc@a85-139-194-125.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:01 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:48 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:07 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-31-122-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:57:03 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 23:06:30 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:12 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:12:57 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:18:57 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:46 davazp` [n=user@155.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:28:37 Leonidas: I've recently fixed a callback-related bug in spells' PLT support, and sbank seems to run nicely on PLT 23:29:59 (just now pushed that fix to spells' repo) 23:33:45 -!- boscop_ [n=unknown@f055058030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:37 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:40:25 -!- davazp [n=user@145.Red-83-54-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:46 -!- chocho [n=chocho@adsl-074-171-139-176.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)"] 23:43:26 -!- slimy_lotus3 [n=Adium@cuscon124952.tstt.net.tt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:43:50 rotty_: nice, will try that tomorrow :) 23:48:56 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 23:52:57 Leonidas: I think the guile-gnome bindings are still more comprehensive (than what sbank offers) at several places, but that's just because sbank has no users demanding more features ;-) 23:57:21 rotty_: unfortunately, they are limited to guile, but if I'll miss something in sbank, I'll sure bug you with feature requests :) 23:58:20 overall, this gobject-introspection thing seems to me to be better than the 'old' ways of wrapping. 23:58:58 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 23:59:07 ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 23:59:09 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:37 slimy_lotus2 [n=Adium@cuscon124952.tstt.net.tt] has joined #scheme 23:59:44 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 23:59:53 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:59:53 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:59:53 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:59:53 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:59:53 -!- reid02 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