00:03:37 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:59 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 00:08:51 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 00:10:22 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:18:51 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:21:57 -!- Penth [n=rachel@pool-173-62-232-34.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:36 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:28 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:08 Riastradh, it would be nice if your notes for 'stubber' discussed related work, like the Larceny FFI or the c.plt package from PLaneT 00:34:31 darcs failed: Failed to download URL http://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/stubber/_darcs/inventory : HTTP error (404?) 00:36:36 Penth [n=rachel@pool-98-114-157-3.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:12 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:38:48 mejja, works for me. Are you using Darcs 2? 00:39:16 1.0.9 00:40:31 I have begun to use darcs-2 format repositories, since Darcs 2 was released over a year ago. 1.0.9 was released, what, three years ago? 00:42:56 samth_away, c.plt doesn't look related at all -- it appears to be a C parser. 00:43:02 splork_ [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:02 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:52 davazp [n=user@176.Red-83-55-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:57 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:56 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-104-95.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:45:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:45:20 2.2.0 works fine. 00:46:14 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:24 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:34 Riastradh, see section 5 of the docs: http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/dherman/c.plt/3/2/planet-docs/c/header.html 00:47:37 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ylclbww 00:47:57 I'm looking at that -- I still don't see the relation. 00:48:32 it's a system for specifying, in scheme, the layout of C data structures 00:49:00 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 00:51:12 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:28 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:45 davazp` [n=user@176.Red-83-55-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:50 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 01:03:24 -!- davazp [n=user@176.Red-83-55-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:06:07 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 01:07:12 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has 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[Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:34 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.27] has joined #scheme 03:41:48 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.27] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:46:36 -!- geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:02:27 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e177147131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:09 tjaway [n=timj@e176216172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:37 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176205104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:19 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:24 I've worked through up to 2.26 now in SICP 04:27:44 I feel kind of good about that and I feel like maybe I'm getting close to being able to be a real scheme coder 04:32:03 or schemer as they like to be known 04:33:23 -!- samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:04:08 emma: nice; you've been talking about it for years 05:04:09 good job 05:04:57 :) 05:06:30 -!- reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:10:44 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:13:33 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 05:32:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:33:20 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:05 arcfide [i=arcfide@99.186.236.187] has joined #scheme 05:38:15 Hello! 05:39:30 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 05:40:56 Today I actually finished almost all of my Sockets library...except for rewriting it for Windows. :-) 05:41:46 Hello! 05:45:13 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:04 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:57 offby1: Hello 05:49:09 also arcfide 05:52:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:10:35 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:16:15 -!- kniu [n=kniu@SHADYROUTE.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:45 Hey everyone, Arctic Repository 1.1 is out! 06:27:15 06:27:30 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:01 Alas, Chrome doesn't understand gopher: URLs, though Firefox does. 06:34:05 *jcowan* loooooves Gopher. 06:34:24 uh 06:34:28 jcowan: Opera does not either, but it does know how to use a proxy to get go through gopher. 06:34:34 any particular reason you love gopher, jcowan? 06:35:48 jcowan: Well, what do you think of my little hobby repository? :-) 06:36:11 jcowan: I thought that a 1.1 release would never happen, but as it turns out, I had enough in there to warrant the release, so I took it. 06:36:17 It's just such a clean and clever protocol. 06:36:29 Them gophers, clever little rats. 06:36:39 I once had the ambition to write a personal Gopher proxy that would keep track of your history more intelligently than browsers do. 06:37:22 I wouldn't mind a Gopher proxy that came with things to make Gopher useful. :-) 06:37:37 s/useful/more convenient/ 06:37:51 At the moment I think I use Squid for my gopher proxy, or Lynx. 06:39:21 The main idea is that it would classify and mark links as Forward (already traversed), Backward (backlinks supplied by the proxy), and Onward (not yet traversed). 06:41:37 If an existing link corresponds to some backlink, then it would be marked as Backwards, of course. 06:42:01 xwl [n=user@125.34.173.222] has joined #scheme 06:42:13 Then the proxy would provide a port through which *you* could surf *my* view of Gopherspace, with links appropriately marked as your F, B, O 06:42:48 If you come to the same menu in more than one way, it will ave more than one backlink. 06:45:23 I guess there should be a mechanism by which you specify a petname, since this could get recursive fast. 06:45:28 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:45:49 your view of my view of Alice's view of Bob's view of gopherspace, that's a lot of little markers. 06:46:43 *jcowan* wonders if browsers deal with UTF-8 gopher menus 06:46:59 That way the petname could be a single arbitrary Unicode character 06:47:49 "Mary had a little " 06:48:51 "Monstris informibus voracter impetemur!" 06:49:29 Mary had a little , too. 06:49:55  06:50:07 maybe use  as the gopher character? 06:50:08 I prefer to think that Mary's sheep was a radical. 06:50:27 No; it's merely a follower. 06:50:30 Comrade Mary And the Hero Of Sheepalist Labor 06:50:51 I haven't looked into the Gopher protocol much. Might check it out some time. 06:53:11 synx: It's easily explained. The *protocol* is just "Send a one-line key to a Gopher server, get back data." Same as finger or whois. 06:53:59 Then there's the gopher-menu format, which is a series of CR/LF delimited lines; 06:54:55 each line is a 1-character type code, a key, a hostname, and a port. 06:55:34 Because there are no headers, a client has to use the type code in a menu line to figure out what format it's going to get (0=text/plain, 1=gopher menu, 5=zipfile, etc. etc.) 06:55:46 hm... no pipelining I suspect. You send a key, you get data, you close the connection? 06:55:53 Right. Dead simple. 06:56:21 With emphasis on "dead" 06:56:28 Is gopher used at all these days? 06:56:40 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 06:56:49 Yes Jafet 06:57:01 Connecting with an empty key always produces a gopher menu, so the process can be bootstrapped. 06:57:05 "As of 2008[update], there are approximately 125 gopher servers indexed by Veronica-2,[9] a slow growth from 2007 when there were fewer than 100.[10] Many of them are owned by universities in various parts of the world. Most of them are neglected and rarely updated except for the ones run by enthusiasts of the protocol. A handful of new servers are set up every year by hobbyists  30 have been set up and added to Floodgap's list since 06:57:05 1999[11] and possibly some more that haven't been added. Due to the simplicity of the Gopher protocol, setting up new servers or adding Gopher support to browsers is often done in a tongue-in-cheek way, principally on April Fools' Day." 06:57:07 --WP 06:57:48 My only concern with gopher is it wouldn't be very divisable. I'd have some maximum data "piece size" and put a data aggregator as a layer over that. 06:57:57 ...which is pretty much what I'm doing for my forum. 06:57:58 Hah, apparently firefox still supports gopher. I feel ready for anything. 06:58:17 -!- Arelius` [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:58:21 limited size pieces, but a hash tree structure to get unlimited sized files, deliverable in an out-of-order fashion. 06:58:30 Apart from having a certain retro cool factor, is there any technical advantage of gopher over HTTP? 06:58:50 As jcowan said, it's stupidly simple 06:59:16 I've never ever ever used a PUT or DELETE request. 06:59:39 *synx* uses a REPORT request on Jafet 07:00:02 But is it simply in a way that's scalable? Can it serve arbitrary content, easily referenced by a URL? 07:00:39 some advantages that HTTP has include the Last-Modified header, the Content-Type header and the Content-Length header. 07:01:02 If you had MIME over gopher, it'd be about equivalent to HTTP. 07:01:08 It's quite similar to the WWW in terms of organization 07:01:16 Or rather, perhaps an FTP directory 07:01:41 Now FTP there's a horrible protocol. 07:03:50 *jcowan* wrote an FTP server some years back for non-anonymous read-only operation. 07:05:17 foof: If you want to serve arbitrary content, you'd need an escape to handle additional media types. If you can treat them as application/octet-stream, then it works well enough. 07:05:44 The nice thing about Gopher from my viewpoint is that hyperlinks are segregated inside gopher menus, which are easy to transform because of their simple structure. 07:05:45 Worst comes to worst, Greenspun's kicks in, and you implement what you need from HTTP over gopher 07:06:30 http://ccil.org/~cowan/publish-ftpd/ 07:09:29 Sorry, there are five fields in a gopher menu: type code, title, key, server, port. 07:09:55 And apparently there is a standard mechanism for embedding arbitrary URL links in menus. 07:17:47 -!- untouchabl [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:12 foof: Gopher was designed as a hyperlinked sort of improved FTP. As such, its original intent wasn't to do the same things as HTML/HTTP, but instead, to make browsing of archives and such things much easier. 07:26:56 foof: The INDEX mechanism of Apache serves much the same purpose, but isn't nearly as lean, and not quite as flexible. 07:27:53 Besides, retro cool is a good enough reason for me. 07:29:15 foof: I also believe you have seen me serve arbitrary content over Gopher before. 07:29:21 With a URL. 07:30:43 It seems that my use of Gopher is more interesting than the content I serve over it, though, which I find amusing. 07:43:11 MoALTz [n=heh@92.23.144.26] has joined #scheme 07:43:54 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 07:54:03 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.173.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:54 I haven't explored the content yet. 08:09:43 xwl [n=user@123.115.115.137] has joined #scheme 08:17:36 wingo_ [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-5-18.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:21:32 Riastradh: If you are around, have you worked on your skip list library much? 08:22:13 I think I'll have need of some sort of structure like skip lists soon here, and it might be nice to use yours instead of trying to play with MIT Scheme's stuff. 08:25:05 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 08:26:14 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:35:51 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 08:38:36 Riastradh: Fixed the bug with freeing shared C structures. 08:41:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 08:42:17 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 08:43:27 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:54 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:02:49 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.18] has joined #scheme 09:09:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20:49 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[n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:39:05 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:19 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-185-187.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:53 -!- choas [n=lars@d86-32-242-180.cust.tele2.at] has quit ["leaving"] 14:42:16 TR2N [n=email@89-180-213-219.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 14:53:24 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 14:57:40 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 15:08:00 OT: Encryption: Can a combination of an assymmetrically encrypted password with a symmetrically encrypted one, be less secure than just 1 assymetrically encrypted password? 15:09:36 brx [n=brx@manz-4d0028bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:15 HG` [n=HG@xdslec090.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:12:01 synx are you here? ;p 15:13:52 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:17 geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:22:19 leppie, are the passwords different? 15:22:28 off course 15:22:35 of 15:22:40 not off :p 15:23:07 The no 15:23:22 Because this combination could be applied post factum just to break the code 15:23:28 yeah i cant think of any reason why either 15:23:39 I gave you reason why not 15:23:51 Whatever that gives the adversary, he can take himself 15:24:03 shit! 15:24:07 they are different! 15:24:11 DUH 15:24:32 leppie, you understood why I am saying trivial things? 15:24:44 bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 15:24:55 Or you understood why I am answering the not the question you meant to ask? 15:25:02 not really, I got commentary from outside , and a few beers behind me :p 15:25:17 *leppie* breathes and rereads 15:26:32 sorry, im back in following mode, so if I understand correctly it is equal or more secure 15:26:48 Yes 15:27:06 Because if additional encryption with independent key could make situation worse.. 15:27:22 That would be the first thing everyone did while breaking RSA 15:27:38 ok thanks, that's what I thought too, but then you these bunch of kiddies on reddit that cannot comprehend that... 15:27:42 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:00 s/you these/you get these/ 15:28:40 they think it is insecure to store a secondary password with symmetric encryption... 15:30:09 They really think that disclosure of the key of independent encryption is worse than lack of it? 15:30:10 Wow 15:30:38 Or maybe I understood you wrong 15:30:38 What are your actions? 15:31:08 I was 'told' anything less than hashingf the passowrd is unsafe, but obviously no-one tried to comprehend the combinatory effectiveness... 15:32:32 this is more of a comprehension exercise of the casual reddit reader... pretty much clueless, just like why I dont bother with C.L.S. group much anymore 15:33:25 So, I misunderstood you 15:33:41 The question is about storing visitor passwords? 15:33:50 And mitigating the break-in? 15:33:56 Then there is a big problem 15:34:24 If you asymmetrically encrypt them and there is no pricate key on the server, you are in the clear. 15:34:31 it is the commom scenario banks use, username: password: then some indexed keys of a secondary password 15:34:53 Do you allow user to change the secondary password? 15:35:11 Or just to get a pack? 15:35:28 the OP was wonder how it can be secure seeing it (seconday password indexes) could only be tested if the password could be 'clear text' (read symmertrically encrypted) 15:35:31 One-time passwords are very different from permanent passwords 15:35:44 permanent passowrd 15:36:08 Stop 15:36:14 I fail to understand the layout 15:36:16 In my case, I gave my bank my own choice of a secondary password] 15:36:47 There is a permanent first password and permanent second password? 15:36:50 What's the point? 15:37:45 ok, bank askes you username and 'pin', then you get promted to fill in some charaters of a second password (in other words, the guy looking over your shoulder cant see the entier password) 15:38:10 both the pin and 2nd password is a user choice 15:38:37 dlt_ [n=daltojr@201.80.18.86] has joined #scheme 15:39:38 so given the pin is assymtrically encrypted, and the secondary pasword is symmetrically encrypted (so it can match input for those inputs presented), can it be any less secure than using a singly assymtrically encrypted password? 15:39:42 hi all. I'm newbie to scheme and I want to find the maximum element of a list. I want to do something like (max list) instead of (max 1 2 3 4). 15:40:42 (apply max '(1 2 3 4)) 15:40:53 leppie thanks 15:40:55 :) 15:41:29 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 15:41:49 np :) 15:42:38 -!- geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:48 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-104-95.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:57 masm [n=masm@bl7-38-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 15:48:55 in plt, is there already a way to convert a file descriptor produced by a c ffi call to a scheme port? 15:50:11 neilv: someone asked that before I think 15:50:29 i'm searching various places right now 15:50:48 either synx or arcfide IIRC 15:53:18 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 15:53:33 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:42 there is a c api call for it: scheme_make_fd_input_port 16:00:02 04:00:45 How hard can it be to grab a file descriptor from Windows and then use it to make a new port in Scheme? I mean, really, this isn't CALL/CC or something! 16:00:35 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 16:05:20 neilv: thats quite close to what I recall 16:05:56 *neilv* greps the source for use of that call 16:06:01 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 16:06:15 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:23 davazp [n=user@51.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:07:55 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:31 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:38 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:42 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 16:17:51 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:18:03 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 16:21:06 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslec090.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:52 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #scheme 16:30:04 choas [n=lars@d86-32-242-180.cust.tele2.at] has joined #scheme 16:31:54 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 16:31:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:33:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:33:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:50 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:44 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:07 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 16:54:09 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 17:00:16 -!- bgs100 is now known as everything 17:00:35 -!- davazp [n=user@51.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:57 davazp [n=user@156.Red-83-52-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:40 -!- everything is now known as notanything 17:04:14 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:04:39 -!- notanything is now known as every-thing 17:22:11 -!- every-thing is now known as bgs100 17:22:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:34:00 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:04 twopoint718 [n=chris@adsl-99-135-73-136.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:13 -!- bokr [n=eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:34:32 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 17:35:19 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-201-199.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 17:36:10 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-25-163-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:37:06 Penth [n=rachel@pool-173-59-84-152.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:22 -!- dlt_ [n=daltojr@201.80.18.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:08 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-201-199.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:01:20 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-68-160-40-45.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:01:52 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-68-160-40-45.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:23 Xarver [n=Xarver@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:04:14 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:40 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 18:05:54 what scheme dialect should I use? 18:08:28 Cockney 18:09:01 Xarver: the one that works? 18:09:02 o_O 18:09:10 plt scheme? 18:09:18 thats not a dialect 18:09:21 thats an implementation 18:09:31 oops xD 18:09:36 that said, PLT is good for learning scheme, good debugging and so on 18:09:40 Then I mean implementation. 18:10:13 Xarver: if you're learning, I'd use PLT :) 18:10:18 Xarver: whichever one the people around you are using. If "around you" includes this IRC channel, then PLT is indeed a reasonable choice 18:10:26 alright 18:16:16 -!- Penth [n=rachel@pool-173-59-84-152.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:44 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:07 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 18:26:15 -!- twopoint718 [n=chris@adsl-99-135-73-136.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:28:46 davazp` [n=user@146.Red-83-57-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:30:13 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:16 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:30:26 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 18:31:57 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-25-163-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:32:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:33:38 -!- Xarver [n=Xarver@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 18:44:25 -!- davazp [n=user@156.Red-83-52-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:17 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:54:45 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 18:58:12 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:58:45 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:00 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:34 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 19:01:05 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:03:46 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:04:15 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 19:07:02 ravenex [n=raven@mm-198-239-84-93.leased.line.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 19:11:21 geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has joined #scheme 19:12:04 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:15:56 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:17:16 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 19:19:51 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:20:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:35 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:23:02 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:25:03 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 19:29:08 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:45 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 19:33:15 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:39:36 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:29 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 19:41:40 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:47:03 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 19:48:11 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:15 karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:51:45 So, I suppose. The main question concerns whether there are non-trivial MrEd applications other than DrScheme and slideshow. 19:51:46 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 19:52:59 ... main question of what? 19:53:43 And whether people will ever agree on how Scheme high-level GUI or event-driven libraries should work. 19:53:58 That one's easier: no. 19:56:47 PLT is trying to port MrEd to GTK, but whether it will become semi-implementation idependent seems unclear. 19:58:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:14 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 20:00:51 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 20:00:55 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:02:03 karlw: Yes, there are non-trivial mred applications, and the GTK thing will very obviously be implementation dependent. 20:04:02 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 20:04:54 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:05 -!- brx [n=brx@manz-4d0028bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:36 eli: To clarify, I like PLT but it seems to suffer from code bloat in some respects. Like, say, Emacs. 20:06:11 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:39 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:56 karlw: That's natural for a system that has been used enough time, but how is that related to having real applications and/or a GTK port? 20:07:19 Other than avoiding the problem of binding to C++, what is the advantage of using GTK and Cairo on X11 instead of Qt on all major platforms? 20:07:55 GTK is cross-platform. 20:08:11 GTK is very poorly cross-platform. 20:08:32 (I suspect that QT is not much better as cross-platform.) 20:09:24 It is much, much better in my experience. 20:09:55 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.207.243] has joined #scheme 20:10:41 GUI design types seem to strongly prefer QT, but I can't relate to GUI programmers at all. 20:12:06 It also provides more of the stack, for instance cross-platform APIs for audio and video playback. 20:12:48 adu [n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:57 It was enough for me that chapter 1 of SICP showed me I didn't need to learn C or Fortran. 20:14:55 -!- ravenex [n=raven@mm-198-239-84-93.leased.line.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:15:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:30 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:16:49 *adu* <3 C 20:16:59 karlw: Are you just rambling? 20:17:01 *adu* <3 Scheme 20:17:13 *adu* Sort of. 20:18:50 I'm railing away about how pointless the Scheme standardization process is. 20:19:20 eli: Honestly, I would recommend having a look at what is in recent versions of Qt, and trying out the included demo applications to see how they behave on each platform. I believe that using Qt could result in a substantial code simplification and make it much easier to provide additional capabilities (audio and video, WebKit widget, etc.). 20:19:40 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.186.7] has joined #scheme 20:19:54 In my opinion, it makes the GTK/Cairo collection of libraries look like a kludge. 20:20:11 TeXmacs abandoned guile-gnome in favor of QT... 20:22:26 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.207.243] has quit [] 20:24:30 If there is some type of standard for a Smalltalk 80-like cross-implementation interface, it will go the way of CLIM. 20:28:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:08 Penth [n=rachel@pool-173-59-94-50.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:36 towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:39:59 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 20:40:14 *karlw* gropes for his Prozac and Jack Daniels. 20:45:37 chandler: I know nearly nothing about qt, beyond the fact that it is generally not nearly as popular as gtk on linux, and I doubt that it's good enough to really do windows and osx properly. 20:46:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:48:48 eli: The popularity thing on Linux mostly comes down to hysterial raisins (until recently, Qt was under the real GPL, not LGPL). Qt on Windows is essentially indistinguishable from a native application. On OS X, you have to make sure that your widget spacing "feels" right and that your artwork doesn't stick out, but this is a problem for almost any cross-platform application regardless of implementation strategy. 20:50:01 (While I agree that in general the license thing is irrelevant, for PLT purposes GPL is a showstopper.) 20:50:48 Yes; I had essentially written off Qt until it went LGPL earlier this year. 20:51:56 In any case, I'm not involved in the porting work, and I don't even know if Matthew started the gtk part or not (but Cairo is used), 20:52:02 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:52:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:52:26 I can send a message to Matthew, but you can proabbly do a better job by posting on plt-dev? 20:52:35 visof [n=visof@41.238.233.149] has joined #scheme 20:52:59 I can certainly do that. 20:53:55 twopoint718 [n=chris@99.135.73.136] has joined #scheme 20:54:01 GTK dominates Linux mostly because the FSF criticized Trolltech's restrictions on commercial use. 20:54:14 The sound and video support certainly sound tempting; other considerations include bundling necessary shared library with all platforms, and the degree that it plays nicely with windows and osx. 20:54:41 (I also don't know much on osx, with the mess of different interfaces and forcing you to do objc etc.) 20:54:53 (Also, IIRC, there were some threading issues on osx.) 20:56:48 Every cross-platform toolkit has issues with looking Mac-like unless it has a Cocoa backend. 20:56:50 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.186.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:59 It's a consequence of human nature. 20:58:49 eli: It's quite possible to bundle Qt with an application; as an example, see Google Earth. 20:58:57 I'll cover these issues in an email. 20:59:26 chandler: you mean that google earth on windows/osx uses qt too? 20:59:31 Yes, it does. 20:59:55 That sounds nice, but it also explains some of the oddities in the interface... 21:00:14 -!- choas [n=lars@d86-32-242-180.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:53 LyX uses QT 21:02:18 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:02:45 if you use GTK+ in your implementation for your private purpose, it's not a problem, the problem is when you has to distribute your implementation, so that you've to reject the GTK+ use or don't distribute. If you use Qt, if you want to distribute your implementation, you should care if permissions are required or not. For best or worst, you could have to look for a public domain library or similar that don't bother you. 21:03:07 eldragon: I have no idea what you're talking about. 21:03:14 err, or open your implementation. 21:04:40 Both GTK+ and Qt are LGPL, as is the application that I was suggesting use Qt (PLT). I'm not sure why you are talking about this. 21:05:35 Is QT LGPL on Mac and Windows? 21:05:42 Yes. 21:06:44 imagine your closed app FooBar that uses scheme lib that uses Qt lib. should FooBar be relicensed only as either GPL or Qt? 21:06:52 What is this LG programming language you speak about? 21:07:07 masm: I've heard it comes from Korea. 21:07:11 An Qt is not it. It is C++. 21:07:15 :) 21:07:57 Qt, two letters, too short, is it a name or not a name to be endorsed or promoted? 21:08:21 what's the minimum name legal? 21:09:04 eldragon: You seem to be having a different discussion than everyone else. 21:09:55 in the future, the conflict is not from implementations, the conflict is from names! 21:11:14 everyones can use names as C, C++, .. without problems, but and Java? Qt? D? one letter! 21:11:43 I'm lost. 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23:29:54 synx: define-require-syntax 23:32:05 masm: WOW GO FIGURE 23:36:15 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [] 23:37:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:38:36 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 23:39:09 arcfide [i=arcfide@99.186.236.187] has joined #scheme 23:39:16 Hey everyone. 23:39:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:37 So, I've been looking at skip lists again. I have to wonder, given the rough speed comparisons of Riastradh's Balanced-binary trees versus Skip Lists, why William Pugh (the author of the skip list paper circa 1990) seems so convinced that they are more efficient both in constant factors of running time and space usage? 23:47:59 mrbl... forking in PLT sux 23:48:01 I'm trying to write a process manager, but if I just run the main functions of each module, they'll all be running in one big process... 23:59:07 *eli* rolls his eyes 23:59:27 synx: You shouldn't fork the process directly.