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Have you tried taking a nice bowl of Loostner's Castor Oil Flakes, with real glycerin vibrafoam? They don't just wash your mouth out -- they clean the whole system, right on down the line! It's the all-weather breakfast. 03:28:24 -!- Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 03:30:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:44:03 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 03:44:39 flonklebonkle [n=nobody@p5B03B4F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:29 tjafk [n=timj@e176210012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:08:03 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 04:08:32 -!- timj [n=timj@e176201213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:47 ok emacs, neither indent-rigidly nor open-rectangle inserts space on a blank line--how do I do this 04:17:49 M-x indent-rigidly RET M-x curse-at-emacs RET C-p C-p C-p C-p SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC 04:18:11 followed by M-x doctor 04:20:54 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:22:39 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:23:36 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-68-66.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:25:28 Riastradh: absolutely correct 04:25:30 -!- rlarson`` [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 04:25:54 I just modified indent-rigidly to indent-rigidly-even-when-blank 04:25:54 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:21 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:33:07 *mejja* learns git the hard way 04:35:17 Is there an easy way? 04:37:18 MegaTron [n=Transfor@ool-43563460.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:18 I might have a small patch for you. 04:38:47 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:18 reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:41:26 -!- MegaTron [n=Transfor@ool-43563460.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 04:42:40 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-16.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:44:02 Let me know when you're sure whether you have a samll patch for me, then! 04:46:06 Email, paste or homing pigeon? 04:46:31 Email, to my nickname at CSAIL. 04:48:14 R..@CSAIL.MIT.EDU? 04:48:24 Yes. 04:48:54 (My surname at mumble also works, but usually more slowly because of greylisting.) 04:49:22 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:49:28 Maybe if you didn't mumble the mail servers would be able to hear your address better? 04:49:47 Received. 04:50:13 Your patch is backwards... 04:50:22 Ha! 04:51:43 Also, what is this `LN' that you speak of in the comments? There is only one logarithm, and it is the natural one. 04:52:31 patch -R 04:52:53 Most likely from intels manual... 04:53:41 One of these days, we ought to reverse the sense of COMPILER:PRIMITIVES-WITH-NO-OPEN-CODING. 04:54:24 I think the names EXP-1 and LOG1+ are better than EXPM1 and LOG1P. 04:54:34 No way... 04:56:12 Although the other back ends are currently defunct, you should add any new primitives to their COMPILER:PRIMITIVES-WITH-NO-OPEN-CODING too. 04:56:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-30.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 05:14:50 foof, if, in Chibi-Scheme, I call GET-ADDRESS-INFO, pass the result to ADDRESS-INFO-NEXT, discard both values, and then run the garbage collector a few times, what happens? 05:16:09 In particular, I am interested in what calls to freeaddrinfo that incurs. 05:17:06 -!- reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 05:17:38 reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:18:07 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:18:14 Riastradh: Be carful, this is code very much in progress! :) 05:18:15 kniu [n=kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:19:02 The idea is it will get freed only once. The (result free addrinfo) in the get-address-info stub indicates that it's Chibi's responsibility to free the pointer. Other functions that return addrinfo that don't specify free (like address-info-next) won't set the freep flag. 05:19:17 Just to be sure: you are aware that what you are calling Chibi's stubber is very, very different from the one I have implemented, right? 05:19:26 yes 05:19:44 Riastradh: it's buried deep in irc-shire by now; but i had been berueing the lack of non-destructive hash functions, whereupon you averred that fundamentally destructive implementations can have functional interfaces 05:19:54 the instance for which was a mysterious hash table package 05:20:13 ... and I just realized a bug here, in that address-info-next doesn't hold a reference to the initial address, so it could get freed if you only have references to the tail of the list :( 05:20:41 And that any cosmetic similarity is merely a reflection of my stunning aesthetics, right? 05:21:18 define-c and define-c-struct I had already starting implementing before I looked at your stubber. 05:21:40 I grabbed your names and semantics for c-declare, c-include and c-system-include though. 05:22:16 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:22:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:55 There are enough semantic differences in define-c that I'm not sure it would be meaningful to unify the syntax though. 05:23:01 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-68-66.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 05:23:42 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:23:47 Handling such linked lists is tricky business. Here's how I've approached it: 05:25:19 (I'm also trying to avoid at any costs any kind of inlined C.) 05:25:40 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:25:48 Riastradh pasted "parsing linked lists of C data responsibly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91408 05:28:28 Thanks Riastradh, I'll check it out 05:28:48 the cps generator update 05:29:26 Thanks, I'll check that out on the weekend, no time to hack chibi now... 05:31:41 klutometis, golly...where do you come across a destructive hash function? That sounds a strange beast to me. 05:32:42 chops [n=nope@202.3.37.233] has joined #scheme 05:34:27 foof, the interesting part is the last page, although the comment on the second page about (having no sensible means of) converting the record back to C is also relevant. 05:35:12 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:11 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@ip70-187-168-252.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:53 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:21 foof, also, what happens if I get an addrinfo struct from somewhere other than getaddrinfo? 05:47:33 For example, maybe I want to use an asynchronous resolver library that provides asynch_getaddrinfo and asynch_freeaddrinfo, but is not compatible with getaddrinfo and freeaddrinfo in the sense that what asynch_getaddrinfo returns must be passed to asynch_freeaddrinfo and not to freeaddrinfo, and what getaddrinfo returns must be passed to freeaddrinfo and not asynch_freeaddrinfo. 05:48:21 (I mean `return' here loosely, of course.) 05:50:08 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 05:54:10 -!- samth [n=samth@c-65-96-168-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:50 Riastradh: If you want the type to be finalized differently, you have to make it a different type. Alternately you can define a type that has a finalizer slot in each instance and uses that on finalization. 06:00:06 Note the finalizers are C-only - they're called on the fly as the objects are sweeped in the GC. 06:02:53 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:06:18 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:09:49 ski: God morgon god morgon, hör fåglar sjunga glatt, god morgon god morgon i kör! 06:10:21 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 06:10:28 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #scheme 06:12:02 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:12:47 *mejja* will sign autographs for a small fee 06:13:27 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 06:17:08 *ski* undanbeder sig den sången 06:17:30 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 06:18:31 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:20:46 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-201.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:32:13 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 06:35:24 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:35:50 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 06:39:36 -!- NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:47:18 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:26 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:06 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:05:20 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 07:09:25 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-68-66.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 07:09:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 07:18:13 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-201.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:20:04 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:15 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 07:22:23 snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:22:44 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:44 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:23:10 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-68-66.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:31:12 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:35:06 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #scheme 07:46:03 shyam [n=user@117.204.87.43] has joined #scheme 07:46:22 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:46:25 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91E15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:46:27 -!- shyam is now known as shyam_k 07:46:39 if i have a function (a op . args) which i call as (a op arg1 arg2 arg3) now there is no way to directly pass a list of args (list arg1 arg2 arg3) right? instead the function have to be rewritten something like (a op arg1 .args) and checking for null on args or so .. 07:47:17 ? 07:49:07 -!- reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:49:54 incubot: (let ((x (lambda (x . y) y))) (apply x '(1 2 3))) 07:49:54 (2 3) 07:49:58 shyam_k: like that? 07:54:22 oh apply takes care of everything... hmm.. ok ok.. 07:57:39 i am actually getting the (list arg1 arg2 arg3) as output of another function b .. so i think (apply a (cons op (b))) is the solution.. 07:57:43 *shyam_k* goes for checking it. 08:08:19 it worked:) thanks klutometis 08:09:55 -!- xwl_` [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:55 -!- mejja is now known as garfield 08:16:03 incubot: The average sum theorem defines the mean value theorem for the first time since Newton. More importantly, all the fundamental theorems of calculus can be derived directly from the average sum theorem. 08:16:07 more importantly, who decides? 08:16:08 -!- garfield is now known as mejja 08:17:36 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-155-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:52 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-201-199.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:20:31 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:21:51 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A91E15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:04 incubot: (pe) 08:22:05 Error: unbound variable: pe 08:22:06 -!- Summermute [n=chatzill@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:27:23 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:29:32 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 08:31:42 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91E15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:36:06 shyam_k: take a look at this, by the way: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-language#H-1tqke63 08:36:24 in particular, case-lambda is an elegant way of handling optional parameters 08:40:58 case-lambda is a horrible way to handle optional paramters 08:41:47 It's a reasonably way to handle procedures which have entirely different behavior depending on the number of arguments, such as parameter-like procedures or distinguishing the unary cases of / and -. 08:44:10 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:23 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:49:27 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:24 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:14 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] 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[n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:20 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-207-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:32:41 davazp`` [n=user@29.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:33:44 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 16:33:48 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-101-97-86.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:35:31 HG` [n=HG@xdslfa080.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:38:43 In PLT Scheme, what is Zodiac? 16:45:00 masm1: file:///usr/local/plt-4.2.3.1/doc/syntax/syntax-helpers.html#%28mod-path._syntax/zodiac%29 16:45:02 heh 16:45:09 rudybot: help zodiac 16:45:09 *offby1: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ..., join , part , tell ..., emote ..., for ..., ghost , nick , system ..., top-eval ... 16:45:13 rudybot: doc zodiac 16:45:14 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 16:45:19 *offby1: not found in any library's documentation: zodiac 16:48:29 -!- davazp` [n=user@249.Red-88-1-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:19 offby1: I have seen it referenced in that part of the documentation. I was now reading the compiler/private/anorm.ss and saw it again. Could it be the name of the old interpreter? 16:51:05 Quickie Q on DrScheme - is there a way to customize the keyword-highlight list? By default "cond" is highlighted, but "if" is not ???? 16:54:23 masm1: I really don't know -what- it is, but I get the feeling that it's some old academic project, unrelated to PLT scheme; and that the various "zodiac" libraries in PLT emulate it, or something. 16:54:34 Summermute: I would think so; poke around in the menus 16:56:17 -!- ente [i=501c167a@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has left #scheme 16:58:58 offby1: I'm sure I've looked at every page but the one with the info I need, but... well, you get the idea. 17:00:18 lemme see 17:01:29 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfa080.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:00 smells like a bug :) 17:02:09 Summermute: use the built-in bug reporting thing. 17:02:36 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-207-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:48 Aha, never tried it - it will be a good learning experience :-) Thanks! 17:04:09 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:36 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 17:06:58 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 17:07:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:08:40 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:08:49 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-201-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:11:23 -!- davazp`` [n=user@29.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:11:40 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:12:10 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:25:08 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #scheme 17:35:52 davazp [n=user@220.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:59 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@18.62.31.123] has joined #scheme 17:37:27 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:43 samth [n=samth@18.62.30.189] has joined #scheme 17:44:42 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:52:58 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 17:57:48 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-iatwvjwsvcqudtfo] has joined #scheme 18:01:57 snearch [n=olaf@g225059123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:20:50 copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:23:13 Riastradh [n=riastrad@maharal.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:26:27 Totally off-topic, but I just came across this little gem in OpenSSL's BIO_ctrl(3) man page: `BIO_reset() normally returns 1 for success and 0 or -1 for failure. File BIOs are an exception, they return 0 for success and -1 for failure.' Oh, and good luck finding what the type of the BIO in question is without using undocumented internals, in order to decide how to interpret the return value... 18:27:47 typical unix api, gotta love it 18:27:49 wow 18:28:05 OpenSSL is useful but its API (and documentation) is terrible 18:29:19 How hard could it have been to have chosen a *single* value meaning `error', and to use that consistently for all the BIO types? 18:29:52 "normally returns 1 for success and 0 or -1 for failure". The _normally_ part doesn't inspire confidence. 18:36:10 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:39:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:12 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 18:42:10 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:42:49 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:17 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-128-210.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:40 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055954.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:20 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 18:55:33 wingo [n=wingo@1.Red-79-151-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:28 "Unlike other BIO functions, the BIO_reset function indicates success by leaving the cat alive; use SSL_Open_Box to check. (Note that BIO_reset doesn't complete until you call SSL_Open_Box.)" 19:06:34 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 19:07:27 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 19:09:44 So be luck not to use BIO_reset with Schrödinger's cat. 19:09:55 lucky, even. 19:18:33 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:44 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:19:07 *sladegen* meows. 19:19:45 foof` [n=user@FL1-119-239-8-134.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 19:21:46 I've been trying to figure out a sort of software pattern where you have nested filters that reprocess byte streams one piece at a time. 19:21:46 sort of like python's producer/consumer model, but hopefully not nearly as retarded. 19:21:47 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/saver.ss 19:22:43 So, it works... but I'm not sure it would work for my intended application, which is having some filters do encryption, others build up a hash digest, and others split the input up into several mailbox style compartments. 19:23:12 or if there are any horrible logic errors in general, or if there's something I should read about this... 19:24:39 in particular I'm worried about the boundary conditions... like when you need to save 1024 bytes, but you are only passed 128. 19:25:26 Tracking of statefulness might prove unworkable... 19:29:32 keymoo [n=mark@77-56-137-139.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:32:26 *sladegen* hides in a box. 19:35:32 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:35:33 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:40 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:37:28 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-122-131-144-165.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:18 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 19:38:22 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:44:50 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:48:18 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:14 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 19:57:50 synx: I've got some very similar code for scheme48 knocking about from a couple of years ago. I don't have it to hand, unfortunately... but I was able to stack filters pretty well with different character widths and buffer sizes. 19:58:49 synx: I'll dig it up and see if there was anything interesting in there for you. 19:59:36 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 20:01:46 synx: I used http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/io.txt as a model for it. 20:04:56 Thanks langmartin I'll read that and compare it with what I've been thinking. 20:06:47 I think it's a bit... rusty. Oleg doesn't link it on his site anywhere, there's no code, and the whole thing (including my implementation of this idea) is probably a greenspun's 10th rule of something or other. 20:06:49 I'd just make custom ports in PLT, but that's a lot more complicated and wizardly than I think I need... 20:07:03 that's how I felt too 20:08:00 I think the whole train of thought might be a prematurely specialized version of the IO monad. 20:12:40 ugh, monads... 20:12:56 langmartin: do you know what monads are? 20:13:05 monads are fun! 20:13:21 I didn't ask if they were fun. 20:13:28 I wasn't answering you 20:13:37 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 20:13:53 I wasn't asking you. 20:14:30 I was responding to your "ugh, monads..." exclamation. It had nothing to do with your question 20:17:04 if monads are fun, then I have to admit it's not very nice if you don't share them. u.u 20:17:44 I suspect however that you are expressing yourself jokingly, and in reality monads are a pain in the ass. 20:18:10 Well, I can't say I've ever played with them in the context of scheme, so they may well be a pain in the ass here :) 20:18:19 But in a broader context, I do consider them fun 20:18:31 synx: I do in theory, but I'm woefully under-practiced. 20:19:56 reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:19:59 langmartin: yay! what are they? n.n 20:21:22 I just meant that the stack of filters bears a resemblance to a stack of functions, each of which is closed over a parent that it calls to produce values. 20:21:43 copumpkin: Haskell is one of those languages I find Even Harder to Read Than Scheme. It's.. well I haven't had much luck with it so far. 20:21:54 ah :) 20:22:09 That sounds more like (compose) than monads. 20:22:15 it definitely takes getting used to 20:23:06 http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/introduction.html#what states that "A monad is a way to structure computations in terms of values and sequences of computations using those values." so, effectively it's a programming style, in the likes of CPS. What style is it though... 20:23:52 lazy language in general is something that baffles me. 20:25:45 synx: monads are either a special case of composition or are used to perform composition. My claim to understand them in theory feels overstated now. 20:26:12 well... 20:27:23 they're more general than either of those, but can be used to represent both 20:27:51 Are they more general than "programming"? 20:27:54 -!- keymoo [n=mark@77-56-137-139.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:27:56 yes! 20:27:57 :P 20:28:51 but only if you accept category theory as more than nonsense :) 20:29:04 I don't think you know what monads are copumpkin. I think you're just making it up for lulz. :p 20:29:26 hah, could be :) 20:29:51 a monad is fairly simple to describe, but explaining how they're used can be a lot more complicated 20:32:27 You could say the same thing about lambda, or chess. But do describe them, please. I can at least start from there. 20:33:32 do you know any category theory? 20:33:43 like, what a category is? 20:34:57 synx: also, you can look at this http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/misc.html#monadic-io 20:35:30 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/What_a_Monad_is_not 20:35:39 ^-- to answer the inverse question. :) 20:35:44 that's a great page 20:35:48 there's so much hype around them 20:36:45 I know what a category is, for some heuristic definition of "know" 20:40:14 well a functor is a homohormopshism of categories, and a natural transformation is a homomorphism of functors. A monad is a triple containing one endofunctor (a functor between a category and itself) and two natural transformations involving it 20:40:30 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:37 hormopshism? 20:40:47 lol 20:40:49 whoops :) 20:40:49 lol, i got stuck there too ;p 20:40:51 homomorphism 20:41:04 got it 20:41:24 i dont, but i am not listening any further 20:41:35 anyway, that's all it is. You can use this definition to do all sorts of fun things 20:41:48 why two natural transformations? Sort of like a codec, with encode and decode? 20:42:06 well, one is called join and the other is called return (at least in haskell contexts) 20:42:30 return allows you to "stick something into it" 20:42:35 and join allows you to "flatten it" 20:43:00 1 -> F and F^2 -> F (where F is the functor) 20:43:32 so with a list, for example, return simply creates a singleton list, and join flattens nested lists 20:43:47 from that simple notion, you get all sorts of fun behavior 20:44:04 an "endoffunctor" would be like "natural numbers" right? Where "natural numbers" maps from itself to all the natural numbers. 20:44:11 I don't know what -> means. 20:44:30 oh, I just mean a function whose domain is on the left of the arrow and whose range is on the right 20:44:45 okay. 20:44:58 not really a function in this context :) but a morphism, at least 20:46:04 not sure how you'd talk about the natural numbers being a functor (beyond being the fixed point of a functor) 20:46:31 but one example of a functor is again a (homogeneous) list 20:47:03 So "F^2 -> F" would represent the square root. 20:47:03 "1 -> F" would be... a vertical line on the cartesian plane? at x=1? 20:47:22 keymoo [n=mark@77-56-137-139.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:47:40 not sure I'd talk about square root. by F^2 I mean F composed with itself 20:47:44 since F is a functor 20:48:01 square root in a very very non-numerical sense I guess :) 20:49:50 But take lists again. Say you have a category of types (the objects) and functions between them (the morphisms). A list functor is a mapping from a type (the type of the elements contained in the list) to a type (the type of lists containing that type of element) that preserves structure. The "witness" to this preservation is the map function on lists 20:49:58 Does F^2 = F F or F x F? 20:50:09 Or neither. 20:50:10 F^2 = F o F (where o is composition) 20:50:30 (F o F)(x) = F(F(x)) ? 20:50:34 yep 20:50:37 Okay. 20:50:58 F here is a type, not a specific value too, right? 20:51:17 in the example I gave, it's a "type constructor", or something that takes a type and returns a type 20:51:29 but it could be many other things in more general cases 20:52:57 I suppose I just meant notationally it's a set of values, not a specific value. 20:53:31 so one possible list monad has the functor be the list type constructor [] (with the map function on lists), a function that takes a value and creates a singleton list (return), and a function that takes two layers of nested lists and flattens them by concatenating them (join) 20:53:53 (Bleh, I'm so out of practice with math and CS.) 20:54:27 :) 20:54:51 if 1 -> F is opaque, you can also think in terms of elements, albeit that is less general x |-> F x 20:54:57 this may seem like pointless mathturbation so far, but it's actually quite neat how the simple construction above comes together to become the so-called "nondeterminism monad" 20:55:21 it does seem like pointless mathturbation, yes. 20:55:35 mind if I go on, or is it getting a little spammy in here? 20:55:37 F^2 -> F is a map such that F (F x) -> F x 20:56:02 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@18.62.31.123] has quit [] 20:59:46 ah well :) 21:00:25 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:00:42 maybe if you'd gone more gradually from the def to the example (: 21:00:56 yeah, I probably did it wrong :P 21:01:21 now I've just reinforced the stereotype of monads being ridiculous 21:03:13 copumpkin: Please quiet down; you're disrupting all of the other conversations going on in here. :P 21:03:25 minion chant 21:03:29 *copumpkin* crawls back into the corner :) 21:03:33 have to leave soon anyway 21:03:38 minion doesn't chant anymore? 21:03:50 minion: hi 21:03:51 what's up? 21:03:53 minion: chant 21:03:53 MORE GRADUALLY 21:05:11 arcfide [i=arcfide@99.186.238.229] has joined #scheme 21:05:22 Howdy, folks. 21:05:47 shh, you're interrupting the conversations! 21:05:48 hello arcfide 21:05:49 :) 21:05:52 hehe 21:06:32 copumpkin: You know that there is no conversation without me! I mean, people just shrivel up and go mute when I'm not around. ;-) 21:07:07 schmir [n=schmir@p54A92B22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:10:34 -!- reid02 [n=reid02@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:21 :) 21:20:51 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:52 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:29:17 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:33:00 copumpkin: So what is new? 21:33:45 -!- keymoo [n=mark@77-56-137-139.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:35:47 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:39:55 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A92B22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:22 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:49 awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:37 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:54:20 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-234-234-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@70.83.34.240] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- ivenkys [n=ivenkys@unaffiliated/ivenkys] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- elly [n=pyxystyx@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:21 XLT [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 21:54:24 jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has joined #scheme 21:54:24 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #scheme 21:54:30 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:54:31 elly [n=pyxystyx@209.9.227.50] has joined #scheme 21:54:32 bzzbzz [n=franco@70.83.34.240] has joined #scheme 21:54:32 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 21:54:33 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #scheme 21:54:35 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 21:54:35 ivenkys [n=ivenkys@unaffiliated/ivenkys] has joined #scheme 21:57:08 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@76.90.95.39] has quit [No route to host] 22:00:54 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:02:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:47 arcfide: i think you've just posed a new conundrum along with shitting bears and falling trees: "is irc alive when i'm not around?" 22:03:54 it's a solipsist's dilemma 22:05:51 i have a friend that whenever i meet him, he welcomes me back to the solipsism 22:06:02 heh; that's pretty good 22:08:18 -!- awarrington [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:10 -!- Riastradh [n=riastrad@maharal.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 22:10:32 -!- samth [n=samth@18.62.30.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:31 awarrington [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 22:14:13 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 22:15:42 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:30 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:00 nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:20:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:20:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:24:21 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 22:29:09 -!- awarrington_ [n=quassel@static-71-249-252-224.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:39 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-68-160-40-45.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:27 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 22:31:48 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225059123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:33:29 davazp` [n=user@76.Red-88-25-187.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:31 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:37:55 borism [n=boris@213-35-234-234-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:38:13 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:24 segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-oobishxzhsphfjyp] has joined #scheme 22:48:27 -!- davazp [n=user@220.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:53:51 chops [n=nope@202.3.37.233] has joined #scheme 23:02:16 -!- jimmyjazz14 [n=james@68.169.156.189] has quit ["Picard Out."] 23:04:25 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:04:33 Couick [n=quassel@AClermont-Ferrand-158-1-28-118.w92-133.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:08:10 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 23:10:53 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:14:13 eli: i noticed you chimed in on "why i chose common lisp" at reddit; good work 23:15:07 i was reading that 23:15:19 and trying to figure out what (And BTW, when I say "hygienic macro system" I don't mean "syntax-rules".) means 23:16:51 heh; syntax-case? ;) 23:17:08 i find eli's unelaborated negatives cryptic sometimes, too 23:17:14 ha, join the club 23:17:51 Arelius`: oh, hey; i notice you're on reddit, too 23:18:22 segoe: Naturally, there is more than one hygienic macro system. Some people really bash hygienic macros as being useless because they think Syntax-rules isn't worth a hoot. 23:18:38 At least, if you believe the trolls on CLL. :-) 23:20:10 -!- davazp` [n=user@76.Red-88-25-187.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:50 I was looking at http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monadic-io.txt but it didn't distinguish from "monadic style" and "lazy style" programming. All I could see was him using lambda to defer evaluation. 23:23:41 -!- Couick [n=quassel@AClermont-Ferrand-158-1-28-118.w92-133.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:56 -!- wingo [n=wingo@1.Red-79-151-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:34:37 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:36:03 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:10 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:32 arcfide: sorry, had to run off to a talk 23:47:14 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:48:55 arcfide: what other hygienic macro systems are woth looking at? 23:50:19 arcfide: before you arrived, I was trying to pound category theory into #scheme but it wasn't working very well 23:50:44 segoe, the most widely used system is usually called "syntax-case", it's originally from Kent Dybvig 23:50:46 segoe: I use and like SYNTAX-CASE. 23:50:46 -!- masm1 [n=masm@bl9-115-164.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:51:15 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aa9zf/why_i_chose_common_lisp_over_python_ruby_and/c0glx95 23:51:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ygudvyw 23:51:16 segoe: I think it's generally the best hygienic, procedural macro system out there for the moment; however, in most cases, if I can use syntax-rules, I do. 23:51:26 what do you think? have i finally crossed over into bearded mountain mensch? 23:51:47 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:09 mmm polyglossic 23:54:08 it's preferable, somehow, to its latinate counterpart 23:55:49 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection]