00:01:55 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:40 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:34 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-70-156.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:14:29 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:39 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:32 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #scheme 00:20:22 -!- bweaver [n=user@68.60.0.190] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:49 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 00:37:49 -!- funkenblatt [n=user@69.238.246.201] has left #scheme 00:45:22 -!- davazp [n=user@83.37.233.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:29 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-9.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:33 Good evening everyone. 00:52:41 Boo. 00:52:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:00 Let's see if I can go five minutes without being spontaneously disconnected for some unknown reason. 00:53:45 evening => somewhere west :-) 00:53:56 Heheh. 00:55:31 arcfide: how's descot coming along? 00:56:20 rotty: It's coming along, but slowly. Next on my TODO list is to make the website useful, and to fill out the repository with my own code. 00:56:37 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:57:10 rotty: Doing that will probably result in a script for auto generating Descot files from libraries and a prelude. 00:57:22 arcfide: nice. dorodango is getting in shape for a first release as well 00:57:44 rotty: I'm also writing a transformer from Descot files to modules, at Riastradh's request. 00:58:06 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:08 descot files are RDF, right? 00:58:21 rotty: I've released Descot already in Beta form, and as soon as I have a web site, if no one makes any further comments, I'll probably release it completely so I can add my new syntaxes to it. 00:58:25 rotty: Yes. 00:58:35 what modules? 00:59:09 rotty: They'll be R6RS libraries at first, but with the 1.1 release, there will be enough in the lanugage by default to support Chez modules and Scheme48 modules as well, I think. 00:59:23 cool! 00:59:56 At the moment, the grammar is lacking a way to distinguish syntax from procedures, meaning that you would have to add that extension, which is trivial, but not in the default Schema. 01:00:03 after I have dorodango 0.0.1 in the wild, we should probably think about integration 01:00:14 Since I'm not going to modify the 1.0 grammar, this would be a 1.1 thing. 01:00:24 What is Dorodango again? 01:00:38 arcfide: a package manager for R6RS implementations 01:01:04 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:06 (it could be adapted to work with other schemes, but it requires R6RS to run) 01:01:09 I'm considering making Descot clean, lean, and useful enough to serve as the packaging system for all Scheme code distribution, where the packages would easily generate modules in whatever Scheme implementation you wanted. 01:01:27 This requires a bit more clean up, but it is absolutely feasible in practice. 01:01:44 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.ikarus.user/1530/match=dorodango 01:01:47 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ybpbmvn 01:01:48 If you can provide the package manager, that would be very useful for Descot. 01:02:10 Oh yes, right. Well, Descot is already stable enough for you to consider using it as the underlying format, so I wouldn't be afraid to integrate it now. 01:02:45 I'm also thinking of writing a few things that makes it possible to load Descot packages on the fly, without having to do the generation beforehand, but that will come after this other stuff is done. 01:03:32 *rotty* --> zzz 01:04:38 good night y'all 01:04:48 rotty: Good night. 01:11:52 will it play nice with system package managers? 01:12:07 nan8: Well, we can hope so. 01:12:25 *nan8* thinks about the ruby and debian disaster 01:13:01 ruby/gems 01:14:30 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:50 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 01:19:27 Hasn't there always been a bit of an issue? 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[n=david@hades.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 01:37:42 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 01:39:07 nan8: Last time I checked, there were issues with perl not integrating with the package managers either. Either you could use CPAN, or you could use the packages provided, but not both. 01:39:08 in the end the language level package manager tends to reproduce the systems level package manager and taking control out if its hands 01:39:08 => a good language level package manager must be able to hook up into the system level package manager 01:39:08 => must be easy to make native packages out of language packages 01:39:08 I agree that they should work together. In fact, I see know reason that the package manager should be able to generate a system package and install it. There are only a few formats around: deb, slackware, rpm, and the similar BSD managers. 01:39:08 i am no perl expert - but afair with perl it is quite easy to make a native package out of a cpan package 01:39:09 maybe the ruby/gems + debian troubles can serve as bad example 01:39:10 Well, for sure. 01:39:10 I think that people need to also remember that Scheme is not some monolithic language in the sense of having only a few implementations. 01:39:10 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:10 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:10 We need to orient our package management systems to handle in a nice way the diversity in the Scheme community. So long as that is kept in mind, I think we'll be okay. It's the solutions that try to make everyone "conform" that usually cause problems. 01:39:10 Or don't get off the ground. 01:39:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:11 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:12 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:12 Hell jcowan. 01:39:12 s/Hell/Hello/ 01:39:12 :-P 01:39:16 really have to get a sleep now |-) 01:39:35 -!- nan8 [n=user@188.40.75.180] has left #scheme 01:40:28 Well. 01:41:39 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:43:02 jcowan: How's life? 01:43:25 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:43:27 I may be free of my (soft) cast in 2 days. 01:43:38 On the other hand, the SC is keeping silent. 01:43:51 Hahah. 01:44:06 Let's not rush anything here. 01:44:09 Gee, burned out that quickly? 01:44:16 On a curious note, I had the same cab driver today that I had some 2 weeks ago. 01:44:49 Riastradh: With all the "response" to the SC, I wouldn't be surprised if they reconsidered there "public for all" mentality. 01:44:54 Riastradh: On the contrary, eager for the SC to issue next-stage (hopefully final) charters. 01:45:05 Why should they? 01:45:08 jcowan: I think he was referring to the SC. 01:45:27 Bugger... 01:45:54 Anyway, they do have weekly meetings to which chairs are sometimes invited. 01:45:56 Well, on the positive side of this bug, at least I can say that the problem does not appear to be in my cool little define-foreign-type code. 01:46:33 I think I have all the (conceptual) parts required to put together Flopsy now. 01:46:34 Gosh... That's a long way for the two chairs to travel. 01:46:46 No problem, we have wheels. 01:46:52 jcowan: What is flopsy? 01:47:07 My little Schemoid compiler for floating point operations. 01:47:13 Oh. 01:47:29 If you want to do numerical stuff, you compile it with Flopsy and invoke it using your favorite Scheme's C FFI. 01:47:41 That way you get unboxed floats and all. 01:48:01 You also get all of math.h and SRFI 43. 01:48:37 jcowan: Have you tested how fast this is compared to optimized floating point operations in native Scheme? That is, how much of a hit is the C FFI call? 01:49:29 It depends on the Scheme and how much you are able to feed to Flopsy, so it doesn't make sense to ask in general, only wrt a specific benchmark and strategy. 01:50:12 In Chicken, it's very cheap to call C (same cost as calling Scheme, really), so it's the unboxed float operations that cost. Other Schemes have other strategies. 01:50:32 Same cost as calling Scheme? It doesn't require a longjmp first? 01:51:05 The Scheme nursery is only 16K; typical C stacks are orders of magnitude larger. 01:51:11 OK. 01:51:30 Or maybe it's 64K, but no diff in principle. 01:55:28 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-112-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:55:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bebkdsrdmnpxiamx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:55 -!- flonklebonkle [n=nobody@W86e3.w.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:01 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:14:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:32 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 02:16:56 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:41 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 02:24:54 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 02:47:39 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:01:25 -!- mbishop [n=mbishop@geeks.im] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:58 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 03:11:21 mreggen [n=mreggen@84.215.28.167] has joined #scheme 03:29:39 geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has joined #scheme 03:51:37 flonklebonkle [n=nobody@W8afc.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:43 tjaway [n=timj@e176207209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:00:30 -!- seanmcl [n=sean@c-98-236-31-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:02:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:04:14 seanmcl [n=sean@c-98-236-31-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:24 I should write an RFC documenting all the names I am using for math.h. 04:07:27 s/RFC/SRFI 04:07:34 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:02 s/for/from/ ? 04:09:30 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176222178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:24:55 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:25:09 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:25:38 i believe the answer is "no"; but i there a way to do the following witha macro: "(my-set a 20) (+ a 30) ..." --> "(let ((a 20)) (+ a 30) ...)" 04:25:54 basically, I want a to define a macro tha syas "set this value; execute the rest of this body in that scope" 04:27:07 C-Keen: yeah; chicken 4 wasn't mature enough, last time i looked, to be used in a "production" environment 04:27:12 er, not with the syntax you describes I think 04:27:16 described, even 04:27:21 what's the closest I can get it then? 04:27:23 C-Keen: by "not mature", i mean: lacking eggs 04:27:26 (and how does define work) 04:27:28 (my-set a 20 (+ a 30)) 04:27:36 define won't behave like let there 04:27:38 no; i don't wnat to do that 04:27:44 what do you want to do? 04:27:46 foof: no, for. That is, logb2() is called log-base-2 in Flopsy, and that should be written down someplace. 04:28:24 i don't wnat to ahve let blocks all over the place 04:28:34 yet be able to set inetermediate computation values to varaibles 04:28:51 erm... do you want them to go away after the computation or not? 04:28:54 C-Keen: the situation may have changed in the mean time, but i'm still somewhat bitter that chicken 3 has been banished to the ghetto 04:28:59 klutometis: Almost all eggs have been ported, except those intentionally deprecated. 04:29:04 foof: oh, nice 04:29:12 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:29:41 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:29:51 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:30:50 if you want them to go away, you need to make a scope for them explicit with () 04:30:57 if you don't want them to go away, use let 04:31:00 er, use define 04:32:36 foof: to be fair, it may have been a year or so since last i looked (has chicken 4 been out that long?) 04:32:54 foof: in fact, i'm surprised to see that it's on its third minor number already 04:33:00 klutometis: Yes, Chicken 4 has been out quite a while. 04:33:02 lowlycoder: The only reason Ic an imagine for you to want a SET! like syntax and avoiding LET blocks, is if you want your code to look imperative. 04:33:21 Elly: dev chibi builds on plan9 again 04:33:32 foof: <3 04:33:41 It was just infinity handling that plan9 didn't like. 04:33:45 :D 04:33:47 yay 04:33:50 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 04:34:05 http://l.leptoquark.net/~elly/ebf.tar.gz <--- optimizing brainfuck compiler in scheme ;P 04:34:14 style suggestions welcome 04:36:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 04:38:26 eeeeek!!! TABS 04:39:15 always :P 04:40:17 (well you wanted a style suggestion ;p) 04:42:48 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:44 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-9.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.8 -- Are we there yet?"] 04:49:22 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:02:46 taaaaaaaaabbbbbs 05:03:39 Elly: just put a comment near the beginning for what your tabstops are, like 4 spaces or w/e. Looks fine otherwise. 05:17:53 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:21:17 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:04 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 05:32:25 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:34:12 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-226-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:40:58 germ13 [n=germ13@cpe-75-83-42-140.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:47:54 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #scheme 05:50:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:52:18 jcowan, yes, please do so, so that we can all criticize and ridicule the names you have chosen! 05:52:57 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-146-194.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:40 Indeed, you'd have to be an idiot to use log-base-2. 05:53:48 The big bad wolf would blow that down in a minute. 05:53:53 You need a stone-base-2. 05:59:07 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 05:59:09 in repl, what does hte l stand for? 05:59:14 metal-base-2 would also be acceptable 06:00:05 optimizer, REPL stands for Read-Eval-Print Loop. 06:02:10 ah, LOOP 06:02:15 as in "goto start" 06:02:21 i like repgs 06:02:27 *Riastradh* blinks. 06:02:50 `Loop' as in, well, it loops, rather than reading once, evaluating once, printing once, and then halting. 06:05:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-226-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:41 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:15 ya; so it's like goto start 06:07:21 start: 06:07:22 read 06:07:23 eval 06:07:24 print 06:07:26 goto start 06:07:48 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:08:39 that is totally not the right way to think about that 06:09:08 why not? 06:09:18 (let loop () (begin (print (eval (read))) (loop))) 06:09:28 because 'goto' is a really bizarre primitive in scheme-speak :P 06:09:52 good call 06:16:59 if scheme uses a REPL model for doing things, then what would the model be for a language like python andor java? 06:17:52 None of those languages imposes such a particular model. 06:18:14 There exist REPLs for all three; there also exist batch-mode, file-oriented compilers for all three. 06:21:16 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:30:09 geckosen1tor [n=sean@adsl-75-30-74-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:36 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 06:34:00 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:37:16 dmoerner [n=dmr@90-147.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 06:41:10 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:16 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@adsl-75-30-74-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:52:17 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-68-160-2-236.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:08:52 snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:11:19 codermattie [n=mattie@74-60-0-165.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:21 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:19 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:34 -!- codermattie [n=mattie@74-60-0-165.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:21 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 07:39:02 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@90-147.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:21 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:55:32 klutometis: I understand that! It's just that I cannot help you there as I don't have a chicken3 setup up and running 08:16:12 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:16:13 hm, contracts look awkward 08:24:50 -!- seanmcl [n=sean@c-98-236-31-247.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:26:34 ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #scheme 08:32:03 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:34:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:12 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 08:40:58 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:52 -!- germ13 [n=germ13@cpe-75-83-42-140.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:46:10 germ13 [n=germ13@75.83.42.140] has joined #scheme 08:50:18 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 08:58:03 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:02:02 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:34:11 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #scheme 09:42:52 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-68-160-2-236.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:44:56 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:01:49 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 10:16:37 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@173.172.99.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:21 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 10:37:16 masm [n=masm@bl9-112-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:43:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:46:39 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:46:50 contracts are a PLT thing, C-Keen, and yes they can be awkward. useful though. 10:46:50 some people want to replace contracts with something called "typed" scheme 10:48:57 -!- germ13 [n=germ13@75.83.42.140] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:49:38 C-Keen: if what foof says is true, i might be able to switch over to chicken 4; and code between the hours of 0:00 and 1:00 10:49:53 it will be quite the revolutionary upgrade 10:54:50 klutometis: so I have heard, I started with chicken4 so it was less pain for me (except for having to port the eggs I needed first) 10:55:47 It can be quite a bit of work to upgrade, depending on the eggs you're using 10:55:50 If you're not using too many eggs, it shouldn't be hard 10:56:38 sjamaan: there's about 15 eggs i have to deal with 10:56:43 maybe i'll give it a shot tonight 10:57:29 anyone else find this kind of funny, by the way? 10:57:31 http://code.google.com/p/hsjn/ 10:57:41 it's almost like they're trying to reinvent shtml in javascript 10:57:49 ouch 10:58:01 list manipulation -> html 10:58:20 i swear, it's almost painful the way the extra-lisp world tries to reinvent lisp 10:58:31 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 10:58:51 agreed 11:00:13 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 11:01:19 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:02:53 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:02:55 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:05:57 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:08:31 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:03 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:36 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 11:16:51 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:20:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- dmpk2k [n=dmpk2k@static-64-115-4-131.isp.broadviewnet.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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-!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:07 schmir [n=schmir@217.86.167.205] has joined #scheme 12:19:02 -!- schmir [n=schmir@217.86.167.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:39 ls docs 12:19:45 sorry.. wrong window 12:26:17 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 12:26:27 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.90.74] has joined #scheme 12:26:38 morning 12:28:12 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 12:39:33 rudybot, eval (flatten '((a b) c)) 12:39:35 Edico: your sandbox is ready 12:39:35 Edico: ; Value: (a b c) 12:40:25 rudybot, eval (flatten '(((a b) c) (d)) e) 12:40:26 Edico: error: reference to undefined identifier: e 12:40:31 rudybot, eval (flatten '(((a b) c) (d)) 12:40:31 Edico: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 12:40:46 rudybot, eval (flatten '(((a b) c) (d))) 12:40:46 Edico: ; Value: (a b c d) 12:42:10 rudybot, eval (flatten '(((a b) c) (d) e)) 12:42:10 Edico: ; Value: (a b c d e) 12:46:12 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:58 where can I see an implementation of flatten? 12:51:24 I try to write one and I'm stuck 12:56:28 here you have one, Common Lisp but it's easy to translate to Scheme 12:56:44 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 12:56:44 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1685335 12:58:36 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:59:05 thanks beauty 12:59:18 np 12:59:40 btw nice name :) 13:00:27 ^^ 13:00:39 schmir [n=schmir@217.86.167.205] has joined #scheme 13:00:48 a better link for Simply Scheme here http://schemers.org/Documents/#all-texts is this one http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ss-toc2.html 13:01:25 xwl [n=user@125.34.168.46] has joined #scheme 13:01:54 if the site is administrate by someone here 13:09:31 seanmcl [n=sean@98.236.31.247] has joined #scheme 13:10:49 beauty, nil is null? 13:13:07 anyway it doesn't help me too much cause I need it to implement append 13:13:38 I must write an append procedure that takes any number of arguments 13:16:49 I will try another method 13:21:58 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:24:05 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:56 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 13:33:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:36:10 Edico yes, "append" is in scheme 13:39:10 here is a translation http://pastebin.ca/raw/1685381 13:39:45 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:43:19 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 13:43:59 -!- Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has quit ["leaving"] 13:49:30 antoszka [n=antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #scheme 13:52:38 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:14 -!- bohanlon 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[n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:38 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:03:28 ejs [n=eugen@10-99-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@10-99-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:55 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 16:13:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:56 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 16:21:46 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:23:24 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:49 ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:33 ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:37:09 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:39:02 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has quit [] 16:41:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:41:57 shurane [i=81316461@gateway/web/freenode/x-zivkgaaxwcfbkfvu] has joined #scheme 16:45:00 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:50:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:57:17 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:57:40 -!- shurane [i=81316461@gateway/web/freenode/x-zivkgaaxwcfbkfvu] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:58:13 shurane [i=81310516@gateway/web/freenode/x-zoegwmvvjhobkbao] has joined #scheme 16:58:22 now where would i go about getting scheme for linux? 16:58:29 at least, for opensuse? 16:59:25 yum search scheme 16:59:54 shurane: Which Scheme? 17:01:30 -!- shurane [i=81310516@gateway/web/freenode/x-zoegwmvvjhobkbao] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 17:02:36 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:03:44 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:59 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 17:05:37 nicktastic [n=nick@209.123.234.150] has joined #scheme 17:09:55 yum search pad see iw 17:10:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:00 *Riastradh* stares blankly at offby1 17:13:26 See search pad? See search pad yum? Yum search pad yum? 17:16:10 -!- schmir [n=schmir@217.86.167.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:49 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.90.74] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:19 http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Pad_see_ew 17:29:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:32:29 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:37:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 17:38:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:38:30 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 18:06:39 hm, yum 18:10:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:47 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 18:22:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 18:25:04 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:12 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:07 -!- seanmcl [n=sean@98.236.31.247] has quit [] 18:26:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:38:37 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:39:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 18:41:20 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:44:40 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 18:47:56 ada2358 [n=ada2358@129.10.117.100] has joined #scheme 18:49:37 Nshag [i=user@82.249.230.249] has joined #scheme 18:50:35 snearch_ [n=olaf@92.225.60.63] has joined #scheme 18:52:53 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:45 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:56 mbishop [n=mbishop@geeks.im] has joined #scheme 18:57:59 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:36 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:07:37 paste 19:07:40 ?? paste 19:07:47 incubot, paste 19:07:51 I think some people use paste.lisp.org or something, but don't quote me on that. 19:08:09 lisppaste: url 19:08:09 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 19:08:59 lisppaste, aosdijfoijasdofijasoidfj 19:09:20 lisppaste might as well respond with that text no matter what you ask him 19:09:25 klutometis, I have a brilliant idea for a new incubut feature: it should do NLP on everything people say here to figure out whether they're asking where to paste code, whether or not addressed to it, and then it should say `minion: tell about lisppaste', just so we can get three bots involved. 19:09:56 jonrafkind, no, that's not a very good idea. 19:10:04 why 19:10:06 lisppaste, for example, might turn up at the beginning of a message not actually addressed to it. 19:10:39 lisppaste, help 19:10:43 great interface 19:10:44 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 19:10:56 oh nice 19:13:59 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 19:20:08 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-46-155.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 19:24:24 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 19:28:58 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 19:29:49 jonrafkind: as you have seen, you have to direct a mildly sarcastic remark at lisppaste before it will take you seriously 19:30:18 thats how I interact with humans as well. works pretty well so far 19:34:07 Are there any particularly fast scheme compilers that are notably good at frequent list construction/destruction? 19:34:44 Particularly fast Scheme compilers? No. 19:35:02 I don't mean the compiler itself is fast. 19:35:29 Well, in that case, there is one, but you don't want to use it because it's not fast in the sense you didn't mean, and I mean *really* not fast. 19:35:50 Haha, which one is that? 19:36:20 Stalin. 19:36:26 Hahahaha, Stalin 19:36:31 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:43 Riastradh, do you not think Ikarus/Larceny/Chez are good at consing/cdring? 19:37:12 Is stalin still under active development? 19:37:26 (I'm not going to use it, but it's just a funny compiler to me) 19:37:48 Quadrescence, I don't think so - Jeff Siskind has a new system called Stalingrad for automatic differentiation that's based on stalin 19:37:51 Oh, I imagine that they probably generate decent code for CONS and CDR, samth, but so does everyone. 19:38:36 frequent list construction and destruction is going to be more a question of runtime layout/allocator/collector than code gen, I would think 19:38:45 and there are big differences there 19:38:52 Well, generating good code for cons/car/cdr is one thing, but collecting garbage i...yeah, what samth said 19:39:43 Ah, so you're not talking about the compiler. 19:40:15 I guess you could say my question had a lot of implicit meaning. :) 19:41:11 Perhaps you have a particular problem in mind that you need to be able to solve quickly? 19:42:31 akkartik [n=akkartik@208-75-86-102.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:25 I am going to play around with computer algebra, which is bound to have plenty of pattern matching, destructuring, and abstraction. 19:43:47 aintme [n=Miranda@247.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:43:59 -!- akkartik [n=akkartik@208-75-86-102.slicehost.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:18 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-46-155.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:50:37 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:52:54 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-204.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:02 -!- Nshag [i=user@82.249.230.249] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:40 Riastradh: i'll take that as a qualified exoneration from the third law of #scheme convo-dynamics 19:57:49 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:15 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-80-236.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:10:41 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:48 Nshag [i=user@82.249.229.128] has joined #scheme 20:17:12 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@89.152.184.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:25 klutometis: incubot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with lisppaste or rudybot? 20:19:55 zbigniew: rather, "incubot must remain intact during its use unless its destruction is required for its use or safety" 20:20:16 good to see you, btw; how are things? 20:21:02 keymoo [n=keymoo@77-56-137-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:21:08 klutometis: is incubot open source? 20:21:39 hi, sorry n00b here: can I define a variable inside a function? 20:21:39 klutometis: "i cannot self-terminate" 20:22:07 keymoo: yes 20:22:16 klutometis: and, fine. 20:23:11 @mario-goulart so, something like: http://pastebin.com/m3051087e 20:24:20 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:57 keymoo: yes, or using let: http://pastebin.com/m3956c45d 20:25:48 mario-goulart: thanks a lot 20:25:55 just going through htdp 20:26:01 keymoo: you're welcome. 20:26:42 any benefit to using let? other than typing fewer chars 20:31:45 keymoo, yes. DEFINE vs LET changes the semantics of your program in subtle but significant ways. 20:31:56 mario-goulart, would you mind helping again. i get an error with line 2: define: expected only one expression for the function body, but found one extra part. code: http://pastebin.com/m3051087e 20:32:15 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@129.10.117.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:17 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:32:28 In particular, a definition with a combination for its expression implies that the variable defined is mutable, and the expression can play rather scary tricks with that fact. 20:33:33 Not so with LET. 20:34:40 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:34:41 speaking of let. is it really usually implemented as ((lambda (v1 v2 ...) (body) e1 e2...) ? 20:34:50 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 20:34:53 Yes, cmatei, if you balanced your parentheses. 20:35:04 yeah 20:35:14 nice, thanks 20:35:22 keymoo, you need to specify (1) exactly what you typed [not a redacted version of it with ellipsis], (2) exactly what you saw, and (3) exactly what you expected to see. 20:35:40 rudybot: eval (let () (define x 5) (- x 3)) 20:35:42 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 20:35:42 Riastradh: ; Value: 2 20:36:18 shurane [i=813164f8@gateway/web/freenode/x-hpauabfwwovmfjmc] has joined #scheme 20:36:43 so... where would i go about getting scheme for opensuse/linux? 20:37:35 shurane, i recommend www.plt-scheme.org 20:37:48 re 20:37:57 Riastradh, thanks 20:38:14 I got it from here, since debian doesn't package it for x86_64: http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 20:38:14 How can I write macros which produce macros? 20:38:27 rmrfchik: Using `syntax-rules'? 20:38:45 cmatei, perhaps there is a package called `mit-scheme-c' or similar. No native x86-64 port existed until this month. 20:38:46 I need to generate macroname 20:39:02 chandler: can u give me quick example of "macro for macro"? 20:39:20 well, i was thinking of slib -- scheme library, but i'm not sure how i'd go about using that 20:39:31 Riastradh: I guess I picked a good time to read SICP, then :-) 20:39:37 rmrfchik: (define-syntax define-me-up-a-macro (syntax-rules () ((define-me-up-a-macro a-macro) (define-syntax a-macro (syntax-rules () ((a-macro x y) (let ((x 'fnord)) y] 20:39:37 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@247.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:39:49 rudybot: eval (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((_ n) (define-syntax n (syntax-rules () ((_ v) 'v)))))) 20:39:55 rudybot: eval (m foo) 20:39:59 rudybot: eval (foo a) 20:39:59 chandler: ; Value: a 20:40:31 Riastradh: I need to create a name for inner macro 20:40:38 "create" how? 20:40:40 it will depends on upper macro arg 20:40:59 Both chandler's macro-defining macro and my macro-defining macro take the name of the macro to be defined as an argument. 20:41:10 (foo x) will create macros (my-x ..) (foo-x ...) 20:41:19 Can't do that with SYNTAX-RULES. 20:41:56 no way with hygene? 20:41:59 Name concatenation is generally considered harmful. If your implementation has a low-level macro system, you might be able to use that instead. 20:42:02 That's not what I said, rmrfchik. 20:42:15 I said: `Can't do that with SYNTAX-RULES.' 20:42:21 er, strike "instead". 20:42:55 chandler: I want to stay insided r5rs as much as possible 20:43:12 Riastradh: heh, any suggestions then? ;) 20:43:13 The R5RS provides no way for macros to concatenate names, for various reasons. 20:43:29 Perhaps you have a more general problem which you would like to solve, of which you believe concatenating names to be a subproblem? 20:43:41 Riastradh, what's up with this code: http://pastebin.com/m26c5a46 i get an error in the yellow part 20:43:41 the error is: define: expected only one expression for the function body, but found one extra part 20:43:58 lisppaste: url? 20:43:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 20:44:04 keymoo: can you re-paste it there? 20:44:18 sure 20:44:46 i have a macro for given datastrucutre. it is a real macr, i mean it gives me very nice syntax sugar 20:44:49 keymoo pasted "define error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91042 20:45:08 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:14 keymoo, there are three problems there, of which two are apparent from your code, and of which the third is a surmise on my part. 20:45:35 keymoo, the first problem is that you have caused psychological distress to the poor parentheses by separating them onto their own lines and keeping them apart from their fellows. 20:45:40 now I want to use the almost the same macro for other data structure 20:46:02 All I want is to have ability to generate my macro as soon as I nned 20:46:19 keymoo, the second problem is that your internal definition is syntactically invalid: it lacks a body, and in the place of a parameter list, you have put a list of lists (containing one element, namely (+ inner-radius wall-thickness)). 20:46:22 masm1 [n=masm@bl7-206-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 20:46:37 keymoo, the third problem is that you are using DrScheme and either have selected, or have had selected automatically for you, the wrong language level. 20:46:46 (The third one is a surmise on my part.) 20:47:02 Riastradh, thanks a lot!! great help indeed 20:47:13 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-112-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:24 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has joined #scheme 20:48:58 Riastradh, can i not then have an expression when defining a variable? I want to define outer-radius to be (+ inner-radius wall-thickness) 20:49:12 keymoo, however, it is still better for you to use LET in this case, rather than DEFINE, if I am guessing correctly what you wanted to do with that definition, namely to introduce a local variable named OUTER-RADIUS whose value will be the sum of INNER-RADIUS and WALL-THICKNESS: (let ((outer-radius (+ inner-radius wall-thickness))) (+ (* 2 ...) ...)) 20:49:33 If you insist on using a definition, write simply: (define outer-radius (+ inner-radius wall-thickness)) ... 20:49:43 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:37 If the first operand to DEFINE is a list, then DEFINE will treat that as defining a procedure, just like the enclosing definition in your code. 20:53:11 Riastradh, i still can't get it to work. :/ i only started learning scheme yesterday - sorry to bug this list, but it's eluding me 20:54:09 Riastradh, i want to do this: (define (outer-radius (+ inner-radius wall-thickness)) - i'm reluctant to use let because I haven't been introduced to it in the material yet 20:54:21 however I still get an error 20:54:34 As I said: if the first operand to DEFINE is a list, then DEFINE will treat that as though it were defining a procedure. 20:55:16 In that case, the cdr of the first operand must be a bound variable list, which for the present purposes you can think of as a list of symbols, such as (length wall-thickness). But you supplied a list of lists there: ((+ inner-radius wall-thickness)) 20:55:29 You don't want OUTER-RADIUS to be a procedure, though, as far as I know. 20:56:04 ah, what i'm trying to do is evaluate (+ inner-radius wall-thickness) and then assign that to outer-radius 20:56:05 So the first operand to DEFINE should simply be a symbol such as OUTER-RADIUS, and the second operand, the expression for the variable to be named by that symbol such as (+ inner-radius wall-thickness). 20:56:46 yeah that's what i've done 20:57:13 In the code you pasted, the first operand to DEFINE is the list (outer-radius (+ inner-radius wall-thickness)). 20:57:45 sorry i don't know what you mean by a list 20:58:20 i'm at a very basic level, perhaps i'm trying to run before i can walk 20:59:02 A list is either nil, an object written as (), or a pair of a car and a cdr, such that the cdr is also a list. Pairs are objects written as ( . ), although as an abbreviation, if the cdr is nil, then the pair is written as simply (), and if the cdr is another pair, then the pair is written as ( . ), and so on. 21:00:09 Riastradh, sorry you've lost me 21:00:24 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:00:31 *keymoo* cries 21:00:36 keymoo, a list is just a bunch of things togetrher 21:00:37 Scheme has various types of objects, such as numbers, pairs, nil, symbols, procedures, and so on. 21:00:38 (list 1 2 3) 21:01:02 For example, the object which is written as 1 is a number (and in particular an integer). 21:01:18 ok 21:02:00 Many objects have external representations -- ways that we can write them on paper, or text. Some objects have more than one external representation; for instance, 123 represents the same object as #x7b, and so does #o173. 21:03:20 ok 21:03:28 Some objects have internal structure. For instance, the complex number 1+2i (also representible in polar notation, approximately 2.236@1.107) has two parts, a real part and an imaginary part, the real part of which is the integer 1 and the imaginary part of which is the integer 2. 21:04:13 Complex numbers can have only real numbers as their parts, however. For example, a complex number can't have another complex number as its real part. 21:04:30 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:04:36 yeah makes sense 21:04:44 You can observe this by trying to pass a complex number to the procedure MAKE-RECTANGULAR, which makes a complex number given its real and imaginary parts: 21:04:49 rudybot: eval (make-rectangular 1+2i 3+4i) 21:04:49 Riastradh: error: make-rectangular: expects type as 1st argument, given: 1+2i; other arguments were: 3+4i 21:05:13 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-80-236.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:29 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:05:38 Pairs are another type of object in Scheme. Like complex numbers, pairs have two parts, which are called the car and cdr. Unlike complex numbers, the car and cdr of a pair can be any object, even another pair. 21:05:40 geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has joined #scheme 21:06:13 Pairs have several external representations. When the cdr of a pair is not a list, the pair is written with what is called the `dotted pair' notation. For example, a pair whose car is the integer 1 and whose cdr is the integer 2 is written (1 . 2). 21:06:28 (Another external representation for the same pair is (1 . 2), but usually we compress the whitespace.) 21:07:10 ok, so how does all this relate to me wanting to assign the output of an expression to a variable? all i want to do is to create a variable and then assign it a value which is the output of an expression 21:07:45 What you did was to write a list as the first operand to DEFINE. When DEFINE sees a list as its first operand, it thinks: `I am to define a variable whose value will be a procedure!' 21:08:39 ok, so how should i write it? 21:08:39 `The variable will be named OUTER-RADIUS, and it will have one parameter, which will be called (+ inner-radius wall-thickness) in the body of the procedure.' (Similarly, in the enclosing procedure, AREA-PIPE, there are three parameters, referred to by the names INNER-RADIUS, LENGTH, and WALL-THICKNESS.) 21:09:06 Now, here is a problem: variables can't be named by lists, such as (+ inner-radius wall-thickness); they can be named only by symbols. 21:09:11 ok, i've got you 21:09:13 thanks 21:09:18 But you didn't want to create a procedure anyway. 21:09:33 however, i'm still not quite sure i know how to create a variable with an expression as its value 21:09:40 :) 21:09:44 Instead of a list as the first operand to DEFINE, pass a symbol. 21:10:42 ah man, what's a symbol? 21:11:04 DEFINE, OUTER-RADIUS, AREA-PIPE, &c., are all external representations for symbols. 21:11:28 (thanks for your patience btw) 21:11:38 keymoo, (define x 2) 21:11:47 or (let ([x 2]) ...) 21:12:08 (Note that using square brackets in the place of round brackets is a non-standard extension that works only in some Scheme systems.) 21:12:26 i still don't understand how to evaluate an expression and assign that to a variable 21:12:28 (There is no semantic difference between the two in such Scheme systems, despite what the syntactic difference may suggest.) 21:12:48 you could do (set! x 5) if you want to use mutation 21:12:48 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:12:57 keymoo, the general form of a definition of a variable is (DEFINE ). Substitute the name of the variable for and the expression you want to yield its value for . 21:13:00 otherwise if you just want x = 5, then (define x 5) does it 21:13:30 ok, something like: (define (outer-radius + inner-radius wall-thickness)) 21:13:51 backwards 21:13:51 No, keymoo, that doesn't have all the parts, and the part it does have is not the name of a variable (a symbol) but a list. 21:13:57 (define wall-thickness (+ outer-radius inner-radius)) 21:14:20 a light just went on 21:14:21 (define outer-radius (+ inner-radius wall-thickness)) 21:14:26 ha yea or that 21:14:43 if you put the parens in the wrong place then you will probably end up with a function 21:14:55 (define (outer-radius blah) 1) makes outer-radius a function 21:15:14 jonrafkind, yeah - that makes sense 21:15:32 its a convenient syntactic idiom that most schemes support 21:15:58 That convenient syntactic idiom is not merely supported by most Schemes -- it is a standard part of Scheme, and has been for a very long time. 21:16:20 (unlike square brackets as synonyms for round brackets) 21:16:37 keymoo, are you using PLT? 21:16:45 yes DrScheme 21:16:51 cool 21:16:58 i'm reading HtDP 21:17:03 and trying to solve all the exercises 21:17:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@82.249.229.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:13 but i'm feeling pretty dense right now 21:17:57 I see. HtDP uses a non-standard dialect of Scheme (or rather, several of them, referred to as language levels), some of which, or perhaps all of which, exclude internal definitions, but may include some additional non-standard constructs as well. 21:18:01 you'll get the hang of it after a while 21:18:19 scheme is different but something you learn eventually 21:18:23 Riastradh, correct - i've set the interpreter to Beginner super-n00b level 21:18:24 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-152-63.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:18:26 Square brackets are as standard in "Scheme" as multiple values and hygienic macros. 21:19:03 what's confusing me is when a function is defined, it only expects ONE expression 21:19:31 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@92.225.60.63] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:19:51 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.123] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:20:48 Multiple return values have existed in `"Scheme"' (i.e., in all Scheme systems) for twenty-five years with a trivial portable implementation, and have been in a document well-accepted as reasonably close to a standard for over ten years. Square brackets as synonyms for round brackets have been formalized only in a poorly accepted document (the R6RS), and are supported by a small number of Schemes. 21:21:38 keymoo, (define (foo x y z) x) accepts 3 arguments 21:21:53 keymoo, that is probably a restriction of the language level you are using. 21:22:43 All subjective. 21:23:09 Riastradh, i'm beginning to suspect that myself. it seems weird to me that i can't write a procedure and then define a variable within it to be used in the procedure 21:23:20 keymoo, you are probably intended to use LET, then. 21:24:48 Riastradh, in what sense were multiple values available in Scheme in 1985 that they weren't in 1975? 21:24:52 ok, so why doesn't this work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/91046 21:25:04 Riastradh, i get define: expected only one expression for the function body, but found one extra part 21:25:18 samth, the sense that Scheme systems included them built-in. 21:25:31 keymoo, the syntax of LET is different from that of DEFINE. 21:25:44 keymoo, write (let ((outer-radius ...)) (+ (* 2 ...) ...)). 21:26:04 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:26:50 no, still doesn't work 21:27:04 man, something so simple seems so hard 21:27:31 i get the same error 21:27:31 keymoo, it may additionally be that the language level you are using does not support LET, either. Probably eli or samth are better-qualified to help you with HtDP. 21:27:58 -!- sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:20 Riastradh, scheme88 didn't provide `values' 21:28:20 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@129.10.112.116] has joined #scheme 21:28:29 Riastradh, ok, well - thanks so much for your help 21:28:34 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:28:34 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 21:28:35 samth, that's OK: there's an n-line definition for some tiny value of n. 21:28:49 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@129.10.112.116] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:57 Riastradh, but that's just silly 21:29:02 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@129.10.112.116] has joined #scheme 21:29:07 (define values #f) (define call-with-values #f) (let ((tag (list 'VALUES))) (set! values (lambda vs (cons tag vs))) ...) 21:29:08 did Scheme support unicode? 21:29:16 in 1985? 21:29:36 In what sense do you mean that? 21:29:43 and further, Scheme must have supported multiple values when Guy and Gerry first created it 21:29:51 even though no one had thought of them 21:29:58 *Riastradh* blinks. 21:30:05 Can you identify your point? You've lost me. 21:30:24 my point is that saying that scheme has supported multiple values for 25 years makes no sense 21:30:36 Well, I didn't say that. 21:30:53 Multiple return values have existed in `"Scheme"' (i.e., in all Scheme systems) for twenty-five years 21:31:22 I was echoing eli's `"Scheme"'. 21:31:40 but your statement was false, whereas eli's was true 21:31:53 No. 21:32:38 Scheme could mean either 'most implementations' or 'the most popular implementations' or 'the standard', and in none of those cases was your statement true 21:32:55 Eli mentioned `standard', as if there were some wide consensus or some standards document on which multiple return values and square brackets as synonyms for round brackets have equal footing. 21:33:32 yes, and had you said that r6rs is controversial, you would have been right 21:33:51 but you said that multiple values were around 25 years ago, and that's wrong 21:34:00 Multiple return values have been in Scheme systems, and been usable in Scheme systems, for a quarter of a century, and have been in a document well-accepted as a standard for over a decade. Square brackets as synonyms for pairs are supported by only a small number of Scheme systems, and the document closest to a `standard' in which they are described is hardly accepted as such. 21:34:34 thanks for your help everyone, must dash 21:34:55 In most Scheme systems, if you write [foo], you will get a reader error or something other than a list of the symbol FOO, and this has been the case for a long time; moreover, there is no trivial way to set those Scheme systems so that writing [foo] gives you a list of the symbol FOO. 21:35:03 plenty of people don't like r5rs, and your statement about 'have been in Scheme systems' doesn't make any sense 21:35:13 -!- keymoo [n=keymoo@77-56-137-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:28 In most Scheme systems, if you evaluate (VALUES X Y Z), you get multiple return values; moreover, there is a trivial way to set those Scheme systems so that evaluating (VALUES X Y Z) gives you multiple return values in a way that CALL-WITH-VALUES accepts. 21:35:36 (and this has been the case for a long time) 21:35:59 this has been the case for as long as scheme has existed, since we've always had procedures 21:36:13 making it meaningless 21:36:39 It's not meaningless. There are qualitative and quantitative differences between multiple return values and square brackets as synonyms for round brackets as I just described. 21:37:02 (Qualitative in the sense of the observable qualities I just described, and quantitative in the sense of `long time'.) 21:39:13 right, and the same is true for proper tail calls and (not (eq? #f '())) 21:39:20 but those are both "Scheme" 21:39:51 Proper tail recursion has been a part of the defining documents and implementations of Scheme from the very beginning. That is *hardly* comparable to square brackets as synonyms for round brackets. 21:40:55 rudybot: eval (define values list) 21:40:57 synx: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023,1/raw" sandbox is ready 21:41:05 right, and so proper tail calls came before (not (eq? #f '())) 21:41:13 rudybot: eval (values 'ha 'ha 'ha) 21:41:14 synx: ; Value: (ha ha ha) 21:41:41 rudybot: eval (apply values (build-list 13 (lambda (i) 'ha))) 21:41:42 synx: ; Value: (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 21:42:38 I'm sorry, but you've lost me again. Perhaps it would help if I clarified my original point: using square brackets as synonyms for round brackets will set you up to be surprised if you expect that identification to be ubiquitous. Using multiple return values won't (nor will proper tail recursion, assuming (EQ? #F '()) to be false, &c.). 21:44:01 Riastradh, if you expect that to be as ubiquitous as proper tail calls, certainly you may be surpised 21:44:09 but that doesn't make it any less "Scheme" 21:45:07 Oh, is this discussion really just about the definition of `"Scheme"'? I hoped that the double layers of quotation would indicate the indentation of tongue in cheek. 21:45:37 (And I thought I clarified reasonably well what I meant with my assertion.) 21:46:20 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:28 This discussion started with you disagreeing with this statement of eli's: 21:46:29 Square brackets are as standard in "Scheme" as multiple values and hygienic macros. 21:47:13 Well, no. 21:47:52 It started with me explaining the state of affairs in a way that a reader would interpret as being somewhat contradictory to eli's assertion. My intended focus, however, was on clearly explaining the state of affairs, not on blankly gainsaying eli. 21:48:46 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has joined #scheme 21:49:52 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:12 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:38 I thought *I* was in charge of gainsaying eli. 21:54:21 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.63.243] has joined #scheme 21:55:03 night 21:57:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:39 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90299.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:01:50 -!- shurane [i=813164f8@gateway/web/freenode/x-hpauabfwwovmfjmc] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 22:03:57 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:04:20 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:05:07 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:07:28 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:21 germ13 [n=germ13@75.83.42.140] has joined #scheme 22:15:45 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:25:29 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:07 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:31 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:39 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:40:38 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90299.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:17 geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has joined #scheme 22:43:15 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:26 ada2358__ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:47:24 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:13 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:42 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:53:43 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:31 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:00 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 22:58:16 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@129.10.112.116] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:50 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:59:21 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:05:00 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:06:04 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:07:32 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:10:18 -!- ada2358__ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:23 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:12:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:12:28 Fare [n=Fare@155.41.162.158] has joined #scheme 23:15:07 kernel_ducky [n=nick@botters/staff/duckinator] has joined #scheme 23:15:39 -!- beauty is now known as arabesca 23:16:46 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:54 duckinatorr [n=nick@botters/staff/duckinator] has joined #scheme 23:19:05 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.90.147] has joined #scheme 23:19:19 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 23:23:16 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:28:26 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-70-156.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:29:39 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:32:52 Is Ypsilon still alive? I don't see much activity on the main sites in recent months and I have not been able to find any public forks. Anyone using it? 23:33:55 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:41 -!- kernel_ducky [n=nick@botters/staff/duckinator] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:35:12 kencausey: I maintain it in Debian, and I've been wondering the same question. they did a lot of work to get it building on powerpc, freebsd, and kfreebsd-gnu, which is all sitting in svn 23:35:27 -!- Fare [n=Fare@155.41.162.158] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:35:30 however that was all many months ago and I haven't seen any activity since then on the many issues that have been brought up 23:36:20 dmoerner: Oh thanks, I didn't even realize (or perhaps had forgotten) that it was in Debian 23:38:03 kencausey: the only main differences between the debian packaging and 0.9.6.update3 is that there are patches to allow building on machines with a 64-bit kernel and 32-bit userland, and to build with the newest upstream external copy of unicode-data 23:38:08 both of which should be transparent to the enduser 23:40:31 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #scheme 23:40:39 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:04 -!- duckinatorr [n=nick@botters/staff/duckinator] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:43:18 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:46:42 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:08 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:48 -!- arabesca [n=beauty@83.231.63.243] has quit [] 23:51:00 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:51:47 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:21 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:28 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 23:58:57 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme