00:08:16 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-50-225-89.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:50 Good evening, everyone. 00:11:33 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:15:12 hi arcfide 00:15:51 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:12 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:21:19 zbrown: Hey, how is it going? 00:24:10 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:25:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:25:51 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 00:26:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:24 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:28:54 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:03 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 00:34:06 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! 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All you have to do is replace all of the binding forms such as LAMBDA... 02:28:27 *Riastradh* coughs. 02:29:00 I like this lilne: `To kee things manageable, we have not reimplemented all of Common Lisp, but restricted ourselves to ISLISP, which is mostly a small but non-trivial subset of Common Lisp.' 02:29:06 Sorry, `To keep things manageable...' 02:29:59 seamus_android [n=alistair@host86-153-103-31.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 02:31:43 Riastradh: Heh... This thing came up in one of the (very rare these days) times I posted on c.l.l -- he claimed that CL's macro system is so much more powerful that you can implement hygiene on top of it. 02:32:09 (Also, phases? What are those?) 02:32:15 I suspected that he would do something in that spirit, but didn't want to spend time on that thing. 02:32:44 I'm sure that he'd violently tell you how stupid you are to even want phases. 02:33:41 In any case, for the concise summary of what he did. It might be handy if I fall into one of those threads again. 02:34:24 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-toaqwspzwhgkgoqh] has joined #scheme 02:40:19 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #scheme 02:42:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:45:36 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-50-225-89.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:56 uhm 02:47:23 "CL's macro system is so much more powerful that you can implement hygiene on top of it" 02:47:33 sounds like a turing tarpit 02:48:13 but anyway i think Dorai Sitaram had an hygienic macro system for schemes that only have defmacro 02:48:27 r4rs compatible or something 02:49:51 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-113-82.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:50:20 iirc r4rs+ said that hygiene can be built upon unhygienic systems... 02:50:57 segoe: (1) Yes, it is an argument like the turing thing -- that's why Riastradh mentioned replacing all binders like he did. 02:51:20 (2) IIRC, Dorai's thing dealt with the gensym problem, but not with the other side. 02:51:41 (At least that was the case with one of these "on top of defmacro" things.) 02:51:58 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:04 -!- ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:57:26 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:58:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:59:57 bgs100 [n=ian@h90.24.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:19 eli: may i ask what's the other side of the problem? 03:06:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:50 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:12:47 segoe: The gensym side is when the macro can't capture your names, so (or tmp 3) works, and the other side is when the use site can't capture the macro's names, so (let ([if 4]) (or 1 2)) works. 03:13:13 defmacro-ers tend to focus on the first and miss the second. 03:14:21 i must confess i find defmacro easier to use, but it's quite error-prone and dirty 03:15:03 In that case you're half-way on your way to recovery... 03:15:31 I like quasisyntax, but define-macro is easy as well. 03:17:42 however the thing i can't stand in CL is the separate namespace for functions 03:17:58 #' for using things 03:20:39 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:38 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:30:20 ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 03:35:37 cauco [n=cauco@186.124.55.196] has joined #scheme 03:36:51 Riastradh: Is the copyright and warranty notice on every starting really necessary in mit-scheme, and if so, would it be possible to reduce the 3 lines listing every year to a simple "1986-2009"? 03:38:40 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-142.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:49 foof: 03:40:22 `Do not abbreviate the year list using a range; for instance, do not write ``1996--1998''; instead, write ``1996, 1997, 1998''.' 03:41:06 well that's unusually anal 03:41:24 I could understand if they were trying to make it machine parseable. 03:41:38 Riastradh: Right, but I'm not talking about the official copyright notice, just the message that shows up when you start mit-scheme. 03:43:19 It's ugly and distracting from the actual relevant information (the version info and the notice about C-c h for help). 03:46:16 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:52:49 tjafk [n=timj@e176195188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:29 -!- cauco [n=cauco@186.124.55.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:54:07 foof: (set-variable! inhibit-startup-message #t) ;-) 03:55:26 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:58:25 mejja: Not an excuse for not having sensible defaults! :P 03:58:59 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-142.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:50 Actually, according to the last paragraph on that page mit-scheme only need mention the most recent year on startup. 04:04:38 Yes, you're right. Ask Chris Hanson, who implemented that display. 04:04:56 xwl [n=user@123.115.112.196] has joined #scheme 04:07:22 foof: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/plain/src/runtime/version.scm 04:07:24 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yj3rc86 04:08:28 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:10:14 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176214008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:50 Wow, that's a lot of code for a version notice! 04:13:40 Ah, Debian sid, how I missed you. 04:14:06 Last week my system failed to boot after a dist-upgrade, and today you managed to kill all my bluetooth devices. 04:16:21 ... and /etc/bash_completion has a syntax error. Seriously, how does that even get packaged? 04:16:44 Remember that OpenSSL was patched to ignore entropy. 04:19:00 Oh yeah, I forgot about that :/ 04:20:19 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:26:04 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:32 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:40 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Ahu226.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:37:20 patching... OpenSSL... what were they /thinking/ 04:40:52 -!- mabes_ [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:45:04 well that about sealed the nail in the coffin for Debian, for me. There are other, better, KISS distributions. 04:46:11 foof [n=user@FLH1Ahu226.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 04:46:53 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 04:47:20 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:50:00 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:03:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:08:23 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:59 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:19 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 05:15:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:18:20 -!- segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-anfqbtixnxmqajuk] has quit ["Page closed"] 05:23:15 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:05 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 05:56:35 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-192-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:57:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-192-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:17 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:22:03 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 06:29:48 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-toaqwspzwhgkgoqh] has quit ["Page closed"] 06:32:36 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:32 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:48:45 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.241.14] has quit [] 07:03:26 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.54.132] has joined #scheme 07:05:52 morning 07:07:13 squidsoup [n=kit@121-74-238-125.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:58 hi there - I'm working through simply scheme, and the little schemer and doing quite a bit of interactive work - any thoughts on which implementation has the best interactive interpreter? 07:08:42 I'm using chicken's csi at the moment, but it doesn't appear to have a shell/command history 07:09:07 what operating system are you on? 07:09:13 os x 07:09:34 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 07:09:45 tend to work from the cli though 07:10:02 i don't know if there is rlwrap for osx but you could use the ide that ships with PLT scheme 07:10:16 it has a nice interactive listener with history and all that kind of things 07:10:46 sounds good, I'll track that down :) 07:10:59 chicken's csi is doing the job, I just thought there might be something more suited to learning scheme 07:11:22 for learning PLT is fairly good 07:11:29 it also comes with teachpacks 07:12:40 the little schemer is amazing.. never read anything quite like it before 07:12:41 you may also configure your text editor to run the code from it, which is practical 07:13:47 i may suggest SICP (good, free copy online) or Lisp in small pieces (more advanced) 07:14:13 I'm warming up to SICP :) 07:14:17 In that order! 07:14:29 I don't have a particularly strong background in maths 07:14:49 so thought I would work through simply scheme first, which the author describes as a prelude to SICP 07:14:50 I'm a total math addict 07:15:03 you don't really need that much math although it helps 07:15:04 Then you'd better work on that 07:15:05 i'm 11 months into LiSP, just got to chapter 4 :p but reading slowly 07:15:12 and scheme is a beautiful language to explore math 07:15:13 The rehab clinic said I could integrate with normal society, but I didn't believe them. 07:15:27 They're just derivative. 07:15:38 synx, you just need to do it in the right spaces. 07:15:49 Sometimes I freebase math. 07:16:21 certainly interested in maths.. I enjoyed godel, escher, bach.. read that recently 07:16:30 leppie are you liking it? 07:16:36 just missed out on critical things in school like calculus 07:16:41 never too late to learn though I guess :) 07:16:52 maths are elegant and fun to explore 07:17:10 ^^ 07:17:12 beauty: it's good, but more importantly, understandable 07:17:46 There is a symbolic differentiation chapter in SICP, among many other mathy things 07:18:00 I read that HTDP is supposed to reduce the "mathiness" of SICP 07:18:01 leppie i found it a bit hard on the later chapters 07:18:04 But I'm skeptical 07:18:26 but it had some great discussions like the notion of a hyperstatic environment and other concepts like that 07:19:28 Calculus is fun. There are only 3 concepts you have to learn in the entire year, and it'll about kill you trying to get it done in that amount of time. 07:19:43 Sometimes 4 things, if they get to the chapter on infinite series. 07:20:30 But that's analysis (which also cameos in SICP) 07:23:00 i still panic when i get to read one of those interesting papers on type systems or something, and it says "and here is the proof" though 07:23:22 and a lot of equations there, where i don't even understand what notation is used 07:23:54 I, uh, just read them for the ideas. 07:25:03 lol beauty, we were talking about that 2 days back, drives my insane too 07:26:03 AND THEN A MIRACLE OCCURS 07:27:06 beaut [n=beauty@83.231.42.116] has joined #scheme 07:27:39 even my modem panics 07:27:43 :)))))))) 07:28:53 back in my day when people had to prove something they had to be more lucid then when they weren't trying to prove anything. 07:29:25 it should be easier! 07:29:43 simple explanations on how it works 07:29:57 and why it works 07:30:09 It's obvious to them, it should be obvious to you!! 07:30:49 i guess they are derivative too 07:31:20 now now, don't resort to hyperbole 07:31:24 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:34 I hate open ended SICP exercises, I've probably written three times the amount of code this one requires 07:33:02 "Write a program that solves this problem." 07:34:05 "Define a problem more difficult than the one in the previous exercise, and write a program that solves this problem." 07:36:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:36:58 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:37:37 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 07:52:05 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.54.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:53 -!- Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has left #scheme 07:57:37 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.112.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:49 "Determine conclusively whether or not you will finish this assignment." 07:59:13 That's really ea 07:59:21 -!- beaut is now known as beauty 08:01:44 It's easy to determine whether you have finished an assignment, but not easy to determine whether you will finish it. Something could always come up. 08:04:11 -!- squidsoup [n=kit@121-74-238-125.telstraclear.net] has quit [] 08:06:00 then you'll never finish it 08:21:42 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:23:16 bosses don't take to kindly to me when I explain how it's impossible to determine when or if I'll finish something. 08:24:10 You could give points from the probability distrbution 08:24:29 Although, I guess they could ask their payroll department to do the same 08:24:44 unfortunately all estimates are about 20% wrong 08:24:54 I'd be like "...I'm okay with this." and never work again. 08:25:07 c'mon lucky sevens... 08:25:25 "I make my own luck" 08:26:20 Though the halting problem can't be solved in the general case, for specific kinds of programs it is possible to solve. 08:26:43 It is semi-decidable 08:26:50 A finite state machine without loops for instance. 08:27:14 Any primitive recursive function 08:27:41 (let loop () (loop)) 08:27:43 Hm, maybe not 08:27:58 well hm... 08:28:40 One could say that every program written on a computer in this universe implicitly halts. Eventually entropy will catch up to it. 08:29:05 You're assuming that the laws of thermodynamics hold 08:29:08 but again I don't think my boss will take too kindly to the answer, "I might finish it before I die." 08:29:55 if the laws of thermodynamics didn't hold, we would have made an infinite energy generator a long time ago. 08:29:56 -!- drewfer [n=drewfer@67.58.77.138] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:53 at any rate, my point is that I joke about explaining the halting problem to my boss, but bosses who actually know it should understand that computer programmers are a subset of programs in general, whose eventual result can at least be estimated. 08:31:58 drewfer [n=drewfer@67.58.77.138] has joined #scheme 08:33:01 sometimes I really wonder though... 08:33:54 I've gone for months in a project without making the slightest bit of leeway despite hard work and effort. Why wouldn't a program like that ever not halt? 08:34:19 maybe I'm already in an infinite loop and I just still cling to some foolish hope that eventually a result will be found. 08:37:17 Damn you google 08:37:56 Ok, now damn you geocities for closing 08:38:48 frivol [n=frivol@unaffiliated/flippo] has joined #scheme 08:39:16 Ok, I wanted to link synx to "Metacorder", but it seems to have vanished from the internet 08:39:48 Eerie. 08:41:13 Wait for wayback to find its way back up then 09:04:24 choas [n=lars@p5B0DF45C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:49:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:01:28 Open [n=Open@unaffiliated/open] has joined #scheme 10:01:56 I plan to begin with SICP in Dec. Would you guys suggest that I purchase the book? 10:02:03 or having a digital copy suffice completely 10:03:11 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 10:03:49 +would* :) 10:05:53 Open: Get the book, if you can afford it. 10:06:23 It's so *much* more comfortable to have an offline, dead-tree form of any programming book. 10:06:30 In my limited experience. 10:07:14 I can download it -- technically, I still have it in offline form , huh 10:07:18 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.189.70] has joined #scheme 10:07:35 Offline, as in  taken off the computer (not the internet). 10:07:52 An abuse of the word offline, I guess. 10:08:26 I don't think SICP is one of those books that is very worth reading away from a computer 10:08:55 It's digital version is also very digital, with proper links and structuring 10:09:10 if you own it, can you comment on the typography? 10:09:22 Doesn't seem to have latex for images, though. 10:09:29 another (cheaper) alternative is to pay 10 bucks to office max to get them to print it for me 10:09:52 I think 20 dollar to get it printed, bound, etc. 10:10:27 Open: I have the Polish edition of SICP, so comments on the typography won't be interesting to you, probably. :) 10:10:54 Open: I do have the original The * Schemer series, though, which is typeset very nicely (if that's any indication). 10:11:08 Jafet: I think it's worth to have both. 10:13:32 For me, having the possibility of reading a book without a computer is a great benefit. 10:13:54 all books should be like that :p 10:14:14 all right, thanks. I suppose I'll about it. (The biggest plus for me is that if I do end up spending the sizable amount of money on it, I might feel a bit more obliged in getting through it) 10:14:23 i cant read and code at the same time, there is normally a lag period 10:15:28 leppie, if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, absolutely - there's a 'lag' period to everything 10:15:41 Heh, so printing simply supplies the motivation to read it 10:15:50 when I'm studying calc, I like to passively breeze through the text a few minutes before going to sleep 10:15:50 Well, if that's your mileage... 10:15:56 I specifically loose concentration too quickly too 10:16:17 and the day forth to it, I study it with a more focused mind. this strategy really does work wonders for me 10:24:15 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:17 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.42.116] has quit ["YourCodeSucksException"] 10:39:11 hotblack23 [n=jh@91.5.103.134] has joined #scheme 10:52:11 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[n=klutomet@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 13:54:04 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest90330 13:55:35 -!- incubot [n=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:58 woohoo 13:59:14 ejs [n=eugen@85.238.113.23] has joined #scheme 13:59:52 shoved all of ironscheme and all of its libraries and srfi's into 1 fat monolithic executable 14:00:18 21mb 14:05:31 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:10 incubot [n=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 14:06:33 bgs100 [n=ian@h168.212.89.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 14:09:17 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 14:12:49 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:48 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:05 x2cast [n=alvaro@242.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:19:46 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@91.5.103.134] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:25:48 hellyeah [n=benebiog@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 14:25:55 hey 14:26:01 scheme has set structure 14:26:06 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:26:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@85.238.113.23] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:26:19 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:26:24 or we define set with (define-struct 14:26:52 ejs [n=eugen@85-238-113-23.wifi.tenet.od.ua] has joined #scheme 14:27:50 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 14:28:21 davazp [n=user@156.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:26 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:37 autre [n=chatzill@athedsl-282539.home.otenet.gr] has joined #scheme 14:43:13 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:49:29 -!- 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flippo [n=frivol@unaffiliated/flippo] has quit ["Reality reasserts itself sooner or later."] 15:26:41 *hellyeah* i know drscheme has plotting library but i am not sure i has 3d plotting capacity 15:38:09 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:42:32 xwl [n=user@123.115.112.196] has joined #scheme 15:42:46 (join #c 15:45:42 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.67] has joined #scheme 15:48:00 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 15:49:00 {join #scheme 15:53:38 sorry 15:53:39 :D 16:03:20 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:05:20 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 16:07:37 Lis2 [n=Lis@p5B206420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:14:09 Dangit, I was hoping R7RS discussion would move to the scheme-reports list. I've been avoiding subscribing to r6rs-discuss. 16:17:38 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.67] has quit [] 16:22:47 -!- Lis [n=Lis@p5B206B4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 16:52:54 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet209-84.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #scheme 16:56:06 ah [n=ah@78.250.174.60] has joined #scheme 16:57:03 -!- ah [n=ah@78.250.174.60] has quit ["leaving"] 17:00:16 -!- C-Keen [i=ckeen@pestilenz.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.189.70] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:08:26 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.112.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:02 -!- Lis2 is now known as Lis 17:11:39 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [] 17:22:24 is there any traffic on scheme-reports ? 17:25:31 none 17:29:18 does anyone know a good example where command-line options which take an /optional/ argument make sense? SRFI 37 supports this, but I'm not sure if that feature makes sense 17:32:50 -!- Lis [n=Lis@p5B206420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 17:34:50 rotty: example? 17:36:00 Fare: I asked for an example, because I don't know one :-p 17:41:28 rotty_, configure scriptsue that 17:41:33 rotty_, configure scripts use that 17:41:54 MichaelRaskin: right, --with-FOO stuff 17:41:57 ./configure --with-library ; ./configure --with-library /opt/library 17:42:32 I think it only makes sense when the program *only* takes options, and no arguments 17:43:29 otherwise, the command-line becomes ambiguous 17:43:55 how about enscript? 17:44:20 it takes a -P to print, or -P foo to print to printer foo 17:44:45 imagine a program similiar to configure, which has a "command" `install': 17:44:47 ./setup --with-library install # now what? 17:45:05 Shouldn't it be `--with-library=install' if you want to supply a value for the option? 17:49:19 -!- leppie|work 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irc.freenode.net] 17:50:11 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:50:11 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:59:28 Should, and confugure actually does so 17:59:58 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@89.190.42.46] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 psc_bw [n=psc_bw@vpn.breakwater.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-crgnemypyjktoqqy] has joined #scheme 17:59:58 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@208.92.234.202] has joined #scheme 18:00:09 But when there are no arguments anyway, it may make sense 18:01:24 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 18:01:24 certainty [n=david@hades.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 18:01:24 Armageddon00 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[n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:02:36 MichaelRaskin: sorry netsplit -- did I miss something before your last sentence and Fare's comment about having similiar issues? 18:03:07 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:03:12 Hm 18:03:16 erm, ... and after 18:03:19 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:19 I missed Fare;s comment 18:03:29 dmpk2k [n=dmpk2k@static-64-115-4-131.isp.broadviewnet.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:29 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 18:03:29 zbrown [n=suifur@unaffiliated/zbrown] has joined #scheme 18:03:29 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:29 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:29 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:36 see topic :p 18:03:49 choas [n=lars@p5B0DF45C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 errordeveloper [n=errordev@host86-151-40-94.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 dlouhy [n=jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:03:49 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:07 Lisp(Manga Guide to Lisp) http://lambda.bugyo.tk/cdr/mwl/index.html 18:04:48 leppie: I figured the logbot might have been on my side of the netsplit... :p, but apparently I was wrong 18:05:01 [sent just before the netsplit] Shouldn't it be `--with-library=install' if you want to supply a value for the option? 18:06:11 Heh, Fare and logger were in different components 18:06:42 and I replied: I think getopt_long() allows both forms 18:07:13 but perhaps not for options with optional args 18:08:00 but short options may have optional arguments as well on GNU systems, so that seems unlikely 18:08:36 18:47 < rotty_> I think for my command-line programs, I want POSIXLY_CORRECT behaviour 18:09:07 18:47 < rotty_> and SRFI 37 doesn't do that (getopt() does, FWIW) 18:09:32 18:48 * Fare has similar issues with his CL command-line-arguments library 18:10:30 (that was the last message before the end of the netsplit in "our" component of it) 18:12:02 So make a better one. 18:16:01 one that would support both styles? 18:17:59 One that does the right thing. 18:19:44 that depends on what your use-case is 18:20:40 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 18:21:26 (with "both styles" I meant both allowing to stop on the first non-option argument (POSIXLY_CORRECT) and continuing to scan for options 18:25:42 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 18:27:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:07 Fare: where is your CL argument processor library? 18:33:12 on qitab 18:33:35 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-10.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:34:26 http://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/ 18:34:41 it's only got two users that I know of. 18:42:21 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 18:50:05 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 18:58:40 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:32 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 19:17:52 -!- nothingHappens is now known as centipedefarmer 19:23:10 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:00 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:50 anybody got test cases for SRFI-37? 19:41:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-10.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:04 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-123-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:16 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-247-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:00:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-150.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:24:50 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet209-84.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:50 pyperson [i=586d0a82@gateway/web/freenode/x-maafwfxjnqmxlgys] has joined #scheme 20:28:51 -!- pyperson [i=586d0a82@gateway/web/freenode/x-maafwfxjnqmxlgys] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:48 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:39:35 charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:46 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:22 jmegner [n=jmegner@c-98-197-3-166.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:05:49 hello 21:11:14 hey 21:11:34 oh nm I'll post it 21:12:26 ...are there people talking in here that I can't see? I've only seen synx talk in the last several minutes 21:14:14 I have a question about the function mappend 21:14:36 ask away, jmegner 21:14:41 this channel is pretty quiet usually 21:14:42 let's say I have... 21:14:52 (define lst (mlist)) 21:15:06 (mappend! lst '("a")) 21:15:10 lst 21:15:37 that prints out ("a") and then () 21:15:43 you can't destructively append to the empty list 21:16:08 oh, then what is the best way to append to a list that might or might not be empty? 21:16:14 hmm... 21:16:53 I tend to accumulate my lists in reverse order, then reverse them when I'm done. appending isn't something easy to deal with. 21:16:58 jmegner: you /could/ represent your "empty list" by (mcons 'ignored '()) 21:17:39 but in general, you should try to avoid mutable, if possible and sensible 21:18:03 oh, I guess I could construct a list backwards 21:18:23 I am very, very new to scheme, by the way 21:18:46 I'm trying to write a jumble solver in a bunch of languages 21:18:53 right now, I'm on scheme 21:19:03 jumble solver, huh. 21:19:18 Like where it tries out different orders of letters, until it finds all dictionary words? 21:19:37 and I'm trying to figure out the best way to have a hashtable that is a mapping of sorted letters to a list of original words 21:19:48 (make-hash) 21:19:53 kind of, but a different method 21:19:56 right 21:20:41 I've read up on the hash table functions a bit 21:21:18 so a list of sorted letters, each of which corresponds to a list of words starting with that letter? Or is it more like a trie? 21:21:29 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:38 let me give an example 21:21:56 let's say "dead" and "dade" are both words 21:22:17 the hash table would have the key "adde" which would map to the list ("dade" "dead") 21:22:45 so, when trying to solve a jumbled word, I just sort the word and use that as a key 21:22:51 the value will be the list of words I suggest 21:23:01 Sounds like that'd be a big domain... 21:23:03 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056786.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:10 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 21:23:18 Plus it wouldn't help much for multi-word jumbles. 21:23:21 synx: I don't understand what you mean 21:23:27 synx: truly, it would not 21:23:52 synx: but it would help for one word jumbles and it is the program I've decided to do in a bunch of different programming languages 21:24:20 synx: I've already done it in c++, java, perl, ruby, python 21:24:50 I tried Fortran for a bit, but I got disgusted with the language and its online documentation 21:24:50 Well there's a then b and so on to z, then there's aa, ab and so on to az, then there's aaa... so to account for all 5 letter words you'd need a hash space of (expt 26 5) 21:25:00 heh 21:25:09 yeah, but hash tables can handle huge domain spaces 21:25:42 it's not a look up table 21:25:56 Sure, so it would be sparse depending on how many words you inserted into it. 21:26:19 So what you're looking for is something that can take "dead" and turn it to adde 21:26:30 no, not right now 21:26:40 sorting strings will be my next task 21:26:42 might be quick to use symbols as keys instead of strings. 21:27:09 Well, what is your current task? 21:27:56 my current task is to figure out a good way of inserting new words into the values of the hash table 21:28:03 I was thinking the hash table values would be lists 21:28:09 The first thing I would do is figure how to produce a key from a value. Then I'd insert all my values into the hash table. Then I'd use the hash table to narrow down possible words, using a test jumble. 21:28:36 you can insert things into hash tables easily, if you have a key and a value. It's (hash-set table key value) -> new hash 21:28:46 I've done the algorithm before 21:28:58 the algorithm is not the problem; the problem is I don't know scheme 21:29:04 yes, I agree 21:29:23 I'm just trying to do the mundane tasks of inserting elements into a list 21:29:35 (hash-ref table key) will get the old value. You can pass a function to return null if no value yet. 21:29:53 I can also have it default to an empty list, right? 21:30:06 so (hash-set table key (cons value (hash-ref table key (lambda () null)))) 21:30:21 that way I can always just add a word to the returned value 21:30:27 (set! table (hash-set table key (cons value (hash-ref table key (lambda () null))))) 21:30:49 That will make each value a list of words in reverse order you insert them. 21:30:55 Or a "stack" of words if you prefer. 21:31:21 okay, I will try that out, thanks 21:31:32 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 21:31:50 If you substitute other things for 'cons and 'null then you can even have each value be a hash table of words. But a list is probably simplest, and I can't imagine the order of words matters particularly. 21:32:36 right, the order should not matter, and the nature of the dictionary file means I don't have to worry about duplicates 21:32:42 best thing though is once you get "adde" to use (string->symbol "adde") to make your key, because symbol lookups are integer-fast, whereas I'm not sure about string lookups. 21:32:54 (at the cost of a bit more memory of course) 21:33:18 Yes, your source doesn't have duplicates, and you won't be adding it twice, so no worries. 21:38:21 Are you using drscheme, jmegner? 21:38:35 I am using mzscheme 21:39:02 #! /usr/bin/mzscheme is the first line of my script 21:39:22 same pltdifference 21:39:58 synx: thanks, your (set! table ...) statement is what I wanted 21:40:47 ehe 21:40:57 yeah (set!) is a useful little construct. 21:41:24 well, I think the biggest thing I didn't know to use was the null thing 21:41:53 I was thinking "surely that lambda should return an empty list instead of null...nope! he's right" 21:42:33 synx: Now make your code deal with scheme thunks too. 21:42:54 ohhh, null is the empty list! 21:43:05 is it shorthand for '()? 21:43:20 not that it's shorter 21:43:25 only in PLT, sorry 21:43:35 I'm in the habit of using it. 21:43:41 I don't understand, why does null exist? 21:43:50 drscheme is a neat scheme editor written in scheme. 21:43:57 It exists because typing '() is inconvenient. 21:44:19 synx: ahh 21:44:49 I recommend drscheme, because it can auto-indent your scheme code to be more easily readable. It also matches parentheses, and with a little trick can show expression depth via color shades. 21:44:49 synx: I'm too much of a foaming-at-the-mouth vim user to edit programs in something other than vim 21:45:18 I used vim for a while, but drscheme's auto-indent is just so neat. It's as good as emacs... at s-expressions at least. 21:45:28 synx: vim does all of that except the expression depth one, I think 21:45:51 I don't know how to get vim to calculate proper indentation. 21:46:20 *jmegner* shrugs 21:47:32 I don't like scheme's variable indenting style 21:47:48 but we usually dislike things we don't fully understand 21:49:04 Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has joined #scheme 21:49:15 que sera sera 21:50:28 well, since I'm only writing scheme for myself, I can decide whether or not to follow the standard indentation style 21:50:35 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:52:48 synx: question, why did we have to use both set! and hash-set! ? shouldn't the hash-set! be enough? 21:55:19 jmegner: it's mostly philosophical. many schemers try to avoid mutation because of side effects. 21:55:49 okay, but I still don't understand why we need both 21:55:50 I think hash-set! can have issues with failing silently on multi-thread applications... not sure really. set! is 100% atomic though, so I try to only use that. 21:56:00 ohhh 21:56:48 wait, then we could get away without using hash-set!? 21:57:42 I feel like I'm yelling at you because of the punctuation... 22:01:37 all right...I can't figure out how to sort a string 22:01:59 I can't help but feel it's a single function call away 22:02:23 hash-set! is atomic 22:02:52 the general guarantee is that 'constant-time' primitives are atomic 22:03:39 jmegner: (apply string (sort (string->list str) char ahhhh, string->list is the key 22:04:17 samth: thanks 22:05:28 okay, I think I'll get rid of the (set! table thing then 22:07:42 samth: why is the apply needed? 22:07:58 the sort produces a list 22:08:12 beauty [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-rghaxpboyzkkjngm] has joined #scheme 22:08:14 `apply' supplies all of the characters as the arguments to `string' 22:08:14 samth: right 22:08:38 oh, apply separates out the list? 22:08:39 night 22:09:43 rudybot: eval (sort (string->list "boolba") char sladegen: your sandbox is ready 22:09:45 sladegen: error: eval:1:37: read: unexpected `)' 22:10:07 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 22:10:22 rudybot: eval (sort (string->list "boolba") char sladegen: ; Value: (#\a #\b #\b #\l #\o #\o) 22:11:07 rudybot: eval (apply string '(#\f #\o #\o)) 22:11:07 sladegen: ; Value: "foo" 22:11:30 r5rs apply 22:11:30 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_556 22:11:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2kjgxd 22:11:37 r6rs apply 22:17:43 -!- hellyeah [n=benebiog@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-150.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-202-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:57 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:20:36 -!- twopoint718 [n=chris@76.208.67.71] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:21:02 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:01 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has quit [] 22:28:20 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@host86-151-40-94.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 22:37:31 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 22:43:43 seamus_android_ [n=alistair@host86-177-222-157.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:43:53 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@host86-153-103-31.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:52 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 22:49:49 -!- seamus_android_ [n=alistair@host86-177-222-157.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:52:12 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #scheme 22:57:06 -!- centipedefarmer [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:09 I need some help installing the PLT nightly build (which should be trivial, I'd think). I uninstalled everything. Then installed the most recently nightly build. Upon running, the entire screen goes white and in largish chunky letters, I get the following err message (including inline - it's short) 22:59:17 Error message I get 22:59:31 centipedefarmer [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:59:49 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:50 collects\drscheme\compiled\drscheme_ss.zo::0: read (compiled): code compiled for 22:59:50 .2.2.6, not 4.2.2.5 22:59:50 === context === 22:59:50 standard-module-name-resolver 22:59:50 [Exited. Close box or Ctrl-C closes the console.] 23:00:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-243.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 23:00:44 Strange spaghetti, huh? 23:01:04 Summermute: The Windows build is broken. 23:01:26 My windows or the PLT Windows build? 23:01:54 The PLT nightly build for Windows. 23:02:52 Ah, good - then it's not some "just me" nasty Windoze problem. Any idea how serious it is and when it might be fixed up? I'm eager to try out the new typed-scheme vector features. 23:03:34 Not only you; and I'm going to work on the problem later today but it might take a day to be fixed. 23:04:06 Great. Then I'll busy myself and give an install another try tomorrow night? 23:04:31 Well, by a day I mean in two builds. 23:05:00 The problem might need a fix from Matthew, and he usually doesn't work late. 23:05:20 As in "after I tell him about it and before a new build starts". 23:06:04 My sense of time is clinically off to start with (really) :-) So it might be Tue or even Wed night until things are cleaned up? I can't really time-reason in "build" units :-) 23:06:32 Tuesday. 23:06:44 If you wait a minute I'll tell you more. 23:07:04 Cool. Minutes I have right now. 23:10:35 I'm using my minutes reading the LTU commentary on Google's new "Go" language. Designed by some of my early heroes, but so far, I'm not wowed and don't see where it fits into the programming language "ecosystem" as it were. 23:11:20 Summermute: Yes, it's a problem that requires a fix from Matthew; but the good side is that I told him about it now, so he might fix it today. 23:12:11 Yippee! And many million thanks! I presume something will show up on the mailing list when all is well again? 23:12:20 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:13:33 Probably not, unless someone says something... 23:14:35 At least in the old days, we'd call putting in a fix without an announcement or a revision change "slip streaming" :-) 23:15:53 w 23:16:15 Well, in the new days, and especially before a release, I call it "Eli's extremely short short-term memory for things that are not in his mailbox, and relatively short when it is in due to a flood of emails and things to do". 23:16:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:30 MichaelRaskin xy 23:16:49 But I'll try to remember to ping you. 23:17:08 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 23:17:12 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:55 Thanks. At least a trial install on the current version screws up in a really obvious dramatic way - nothing subtle to worry about :-) 23:18:01 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:19:03 Yes it would -- because the build fails, you get the older binaries with newer .zos -- which is exactly what the error says. 23:19:55 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:19:56 Yeah, sometime it would be interesting to know how that came to pass. 23:20:42 It's related to the build process -- it failed so it didn't package up a new build, and it happens that the old build is still there. 23:21:05 And the distribution is made up of binary files from the different builds, with .zo files from the central build. 23:21:14 Ahhh, most errors do involve other errors after all.... 23:21:25 So it lumps together the now-outdated binaries with the new .zos. 23:21:46 -!- davazp [n=user@156.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:57 I could make the last build results be removed after the build finishes -- that would make the nightly build fail completely, 23:22:06 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:09 Sensitive relationship between the binaries and the .zo byte code files. 23:22:18 but in most cases there is no version increment, and using an older binaries is working fine. 23:22:45 I have some define-for-syntax that are very expensive to compute, and they are being computed several times when the program is loading. What can I do to prevent the recomputations? 23:22:53 Yes, the zo files require a specific version -- which is why the version gets bumped whenever there's a binary incompatible change, like new core bindings. 23:23:44 I find that's pretty interesting. One could sort of imagine it otherwise. 23:23:50 masm: If you're talking about PLT -- you can use some file to cache the results, otherwise there's not much you can do for now. 23:25:16 Is the bytecode interpreter under heavy modification most of the time, hence the binaries/.zo heavy dependencies? Or is it just some strict versioning scheme in the build process? 23:26:27 It contains index numbers for builtins, so any changes in them means a new version. 23:26:41 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:26:42 Hydr4 [n=Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:27 eli: Why does this happen? Where I was expecting the module to be visited once, it is being visited 9 times. I guess I still don't understand it, despite having read the manual several times. 23:27:38 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 23:27:53 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056786.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:28:24 builtins = "primops" ? Makes me think of Smalltalk, which over many years, IIRC, has had a fairly constant set of numbered primops. Hence the relative ease of writing a core and the "bringing up the image." 23:28:43 masm: You can search the mailing list (or ask), but the bottom line is that it can be visited multiple times -- often more than you'd thing. 23:29:40 Summermute: That's far from being unique to smalltalk. It even comes up in the toy interpreter in my class. 23:30:50 But it sounds like either primops are being either renumbered and/or added to the PLT bytecode interpreter rather regularly, if I read you right. 23:31:13 For some definition of "regularly". 23:31:46 :-) 23:33:03 For its time, even today, Smalltalk was damn bold about defining a small number of primops (even down to low level stuff like BitBlt) and then building the entire rest of the system in Smalltalk itself. That's super ballsy, whether today or in 1972. 23:35:13 I wouldn't describe it as "super" these days. But in any case, ST has the "advantage" of being its own OS, so there's much less traffic dictated by the OS underneath it. The same is likely true (and perhaps even more) for lisp machines. 23:40:29 eli: That is one damn good point. A really useful survey could be put together on "interpreters" roughly defined and their ties to the OS and how it affects their design, portability, code size and so on. Too bad I'm not an academic. 23:40:44 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:42:02 Summermute: There's not much to say there -- the question is what level you put your "reifications" at -- ST puts that very low, which means that it can enjoy more stability, but it needs much more work in compensating for the lack of features. 23:42:55 In contrast, PLT (and most modern languages) draws the line much higher, so the are more sensitive to changes in the OS -- and they need less work in getting OS-like facilities. 23:43:47 The modern approach seems to me to make more sense, because it throws more workload to the OS -- where people spend much more time on just the low-level stuff. 23:44:03 Good and succinct analysis, but there's still gonna be a ton of folks out there designing such languages trying to figure out where to "dial in" those "reifications" (love that word). 23:44:24 It's especially more fitting when you compare the manpower xerox can put into something, vs an open-source project with very few overworked people. 23:45:05 Just like Paul Wilson's GC survey didn't break any new ground (is it still floating around, maintained), but it helped me A TON figure out my own GC scheme back in the early 1990's or so. 23:45:25 zanes [n=zane@c-76-119-235-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:52 One of the most interesting comments on project oriented comp sci research I've read in a long time was the relative "death" of funding for mid-sized projects (changes in DARPA were mentioned, etc.) Article claimed that between one or two folks working on some tiny extension to Haskell's type system and big monolithic projects building supuer computers, we need a return to funding of ~20 person size projects because they effectively got alot off the inte 23:50:35 Yes, funding in the US is a sensitive issue... Hopefully better now. 23:50:36 And yes, I was just out of my nappies, but I think after Smalltalk 1972 the Xerox execs got excited enough to start to devote real resources to building commercial Smalltalk workstations. 23:51:57 ... which made other people do the same with lisp machines. 23:52:13 ... and then the big bad AI winter came, and everybody died. 23:52:27 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:51 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 23:54:18 Back to Scheme/Lisp, it's kind of odd to me that the "Lisp Machines" weren't designed to be so easily bootstrapped. Slightly different world and we'd all be bangin on Genera right now :-) But really, is it that the MIT folks just couldn't resist frobbing hardware for microcoded type checking or Lord knows what? Some East coast vs. West coast phenomena? In any case, I don't know of any popular Lisp/Scheme one can write a tiny core + tiny set of primops 23:54:35 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 23:55:28 Excepting the newfangled "neural net" wizards who flooded wall street and made a mint as symbolic AI and expert systems died on the vine. 23:57:09 Well, I don't know much of it either -- but what I do know is that the whole AI winter thing (and things that died due to it), were a justified kind of hubris to AI people who generated a kind of a dot-com bubble on a ridiculous scale of optimism.