00:00:14 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@208.92.234.202] has joined #scheme 00:00:38 I guess not, then. 00:02:43 So what are the merits of riaxpander as a defining implementation of syntax-rules or other macro systems? 00:03:22 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:03:22 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Afl135.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:48 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.146.13] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:24 It has a clear structure that lacks corner cases and is predictable and easy to understand. 00:05:17 I'll look at it and see. 00:05:40 It may be my own code, but I believe that it is clearer even than my bias would make it seem to me. 00:06:08 Now, what is some suitable test data for infer-type-top, so that I can (as you and chandler recommended) play with the HM code? 00:06:26 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 00:09:07 Look at the page titled `Expressions' for the format of expressions you can supply. The type context is an alist mapping names to types. See the page `Type Terms' for information on the format of types. 00:10:00 For example, I think that (infer-type-top '(lambda x (f (g x))) '((f . (-> integer boolean)) (g . (-> real integer)))) should work. 00:10:15 (and it should yield the type (-> real boolean)) 00:12:12 -!- EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-193-143.noc.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 00:13:05 Chicken bitches about argument-type and a great many other variables being undefined in infer-type. (This is in case-folding mode) 00:13:44 ...Move the definition of BIND to the top of the file, or fix the bug in Chicken. 00:14:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:51 Ah. 00:18:30 Okay, that worked after I added a reference to SRFI 1. 00:22:59 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 00:27:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:39 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 00:33:13 *jcowan* finally figures out that the hm input language is not really Scheme. 00:33:38 (lambda x . body) instead of (lambda (x) . body), in particular. 00:33:45 No, (lambda x body). 00:34:04 Ah, even less than I thought. 00:34:27 And no constants or other primitive syntax, either. Still, I understand how to add those. 00:36:20 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:40:59 There is more primitive syntax -- LET. 00:41:17 It is written (LET ). 00:42:31 *jcowan* nods. 00:42:40 Does it have ML-ish consequences? 00:42:42 Adding conditionals is straightforward: infer the type of the condition, unify it with the primitive type BOOLEAN; infer the types of the branches, and unify them together. 00:42:46 ML-ish consequences? 00:43:09 I know they exist, but can't explain them. ML does not treat LET and LAMBDA interchangeably. 00:43:37 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:43:51 That's right. LET causes the type inference to generalize the type of the expression so that it is universally quantified over all its free type variables. 00:44:17 This makes (let id (lambda (x) x) (tuple (id '5) (id '#t))) work. 00:44:31 But ((lambda id (tuple (id '5) (id '#t))) (lambda x x)) does not work. 00:44:38 *jcowan* nods. 00:45:03 With LET, ID has the type (FOR-ALL (A) (-> A A)). With LAMBDA, ID either has the type (-> INTEGER INTEGER) or (-> BOOLEAN BOOLEAN), but those don't unify. 00:45:18 For jcowan's type system, I don't think the distinction will really make a difference. 00:45:33 (Or, more precisely, with LET, for any type A, ID can be instantiated with the type (-> A A).) 00:45:50 chandler: Right, since all is monomorphic. 00:46:09 OK...although LET is the only interesting part of H-M. 00:46:23 My purpose is to be useful rather than interesting. 00:46:31 (At this time, anyhow.) 00:46:53 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:54:24 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-115-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:58:27 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 00:58:47 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:01:29 Fare, oops, that doesn't work. 01:02:25 what doesn't work? 01:03:11 The LEA/ROR sequence. It needs to be (PC * 2^6)-relative, not PC-relative. 01:03:42 yes, I told you. 01:03:44 too bad. 01:03:51 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #scheme 01:03:51 or an extra register move 01:04:05 Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about using the SIB format to scale an index. 01:04:15 (and the scale can be only 1, 2, 4, or 8) 01:04:21 yeah, it's *6 01:04:26 I mean *8 01:04:30 hence 3 bits only 01:05:01 No, that doesn't help anyway. The SIB format doesn't work with PC-relative addressing at all. 01:05:11 mov rax, rip ; mov rax, offset*8+5(rax*8) ; ror rax,3 01:05:49 (It would have to be lea rax,0(rip), not mov rax,rip.) 01:06:06 two leas instead of mov. 01:07:20 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 01:07:56 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Rebooting (stupid wedged i915 drivers)"] 01:08:19 HM? 01:08:52 Hm? 01:09:27 what HM code was jcowan talking about? 01:10:12 01:12:34 I see, thanks 01:14:03 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:15:30 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xzbiabhmfbxjuggm] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:50 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:20:04 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #scheme 01:21:32 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-142.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:21:35 Hello everyone. 01:22:08 Hi. 01:23:18 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:23:23 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 01:23:36 Riastradh: I don't think I sufficiently answered your query last time, did I? 01:24:15 I don't remember. 01:24:28 Assume not, then. 01:25:37 I believe you were illustrating some deficiency in syntactic module systems. 01:27:57 Yes. 01:28:08 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:39 Riastradh: Portability is the main reason you want a module system, right? And the main benefit of a module system for portability is load dependency graphs, right, besides the obvious point that they control visibility and the environments in which the code is loaded; am I missing something in this assessment? 01:30:17 The reason I want a module system is that I want a formal way to describe the organization of a program, for many purposes, among which one is to develop it or load it into a Scheme system for use. 01:31:10 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 01:32:32 Okay, thanks. 01:39:35 ...were you intending to elaborate upon the matter? 01:43:49 Yes, but perhaps not immediately. I believe I mentioned before that there shouldn't be anything that stops a syntactic system from "tagging" identifiers so that importing them when they are of a different compilation instance than the one intended will result in an error. If this information was provided programmatically, then it should be clear what pieces must be recompiled. 01:44:08 It is of course, possible that I am missing a clear point that you are making however, so I am going to muse on it some more. 01:44:36 My brain is focused on other things at the moment, but I wanted to get some clarification. 01:44:54 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-114-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 01:45:18 I don't want my compiler to report errors when I have edited my code. I want it to recompile that code (and only that code and its dependents). 01:45:34 Actually, speaking of clarification, things like procedures are a way of formally describing the organization of a program, for some definition of organization and program, so could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean by describing the organization of a program? 01:46:28 `Things like procedures'? 01:46:50 Riastradh: Can you give an example case of how this would work in practice? Is there a particular Scheme system that epitomizes this ability? 01:47:01 I want to point Emacs at this description and type C-M-i. 01:47:20 *arcfide* looks up C-M-i. 01:47:33 I want to point a static linker at this description and have it compile everything (if necessary) and build an image. 01:47:37 C-M-i completes names. 01:48:17 I want to type `,in foo' at the REPL and start evaluating expressions and definitions in the environment of the FOO component. 01:48:52 I want to write a compiler that reads in these descriptions, and describe the compiler using the same language as it understands, and load it in as an object-program to compile itself. 01:50:12 And then as I debug its compiling itself at the REPL, I want to be able to enter both the meta-program's environment and the object-program's environment, but I want to make sure that they're separate and don't get confused and don't need anything like SBCL's SB- vs SB! packages. 01:50:43 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:12 And yes, there is a Scheme system that does all this reasonably well: Scheme48. 01:52:55 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-103-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:21 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:23 -!- xwl_` [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:16 Riastradh: For the static linker, how does Scheme48 work here? I know that it can build an image of code, or byte-compile it, but what means does it use to determine if a module needs to be recompiled? Additionally, if two modules are defined in the same file, can it selectively byte-compile only one into the result, and leave the other as it was? 01:58:59 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 02:00:15 Scheme48 doesn't cache compiled code on disk, but there's nothing stopping it from doing that. If it did, then it could simply check file modification times to decide whether something is out of date, just like everything else. 02:00:55 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:01:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:04:50 -!- parduncia [n=pardunci@2001:1bc8:101:feff:250:43ff:feaa:3508] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:55 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 02:09:40 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 02:15:53 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-114-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:16:20 Okay, thanks for the clarifications. 02:30:59 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:35:41 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:40:13 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:41:52 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #scheme 02:43:40 parduncia [n=pardunci@2001:1bc8:101:feff:250:43ff:feaa:3508] has joined #scheme 02:47:35 -!- tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has quit ["leaving"] 02:47:44 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #scheme 02:52:14 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:52:53 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:56:05 foof [n=user@FL1-119-239-38-70.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 02:57:52 (* 3.0 4.0) 02:57:52 ;Value: 012. 02:57:57 Hey ev...never mind. 02:59:00 (/ 1.0 2.0) 02:59:00 ;Value: .9990234375 02:59:24 What's that, chibi with immediate floats? :) 03:00:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:00:52 No, it's MIT Scheme with SSEk for whatever value of k it is. 03:01:39 Wow, MIT Scheme supports SSE7?! 03:02:43 Well, not yet! I haven't commited this, of course. 03:02:51 Committed, even. 03:03:08 (At least I didn't spell it `comisded'.) 03:07:53 So that includes SSE5 and SSE6? 03:10:31 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 03:11:11 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 03:12:35 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:13:03 -!- asdfasd is now known as TR2N 03:13:39 -!- TR2N is now known as X-Scale 03:14:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:15:11 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:37 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:19:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:20:35 roderic` [n=user@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:22:50 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- cornbread [n=max@mendotasoft.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@89.190.42.46] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- roderic [n=user@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:23:00 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 03:23:28 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 03:23:43 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:23:49 cornbread [n=max@mendotasoft.com] has joined #scheme 03:23:54 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 03:24:09 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@89.190.42.46] has joined #scheme 03:24:21 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 03:25:35 saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.54.113] has joined #scheme 03:25:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:26:01 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 03:27:37 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 03:28:25 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 03:28:29 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:44 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:28:46 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:28:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:08 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:23 That's better. 03:30:00 To load a double from memory, it works better to use the instruction that loads a double from memory, rather than the instruction that loads an integer from memory and converts it to a double. 03:30:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:31:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 03:33:23 Riastradh, big surprise. For what k is SSEk guaranteed available on x86-64 ? 03:33:31 Up to 3, I think. 03:33:38 Up to and including 3, that is. 03:37:24 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:37:50 I'm not sure that's correct. I think it's SSE2 and a subset of SSE3. 03:41:45 Maybe. I'm using what the AMD manual documents without saying `Programs MUST check CPUID bit foo before using this instruction.' 03:44:14 This whole SSEk nomenclature and willy-nilly instruction set extension is awfully confusing. 03:45:57 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:46:16 Well, Wikipedia says that SSE3 was not present in the original AMD64 implementations. 03:46:44 Nor in some of the later ones; an Athlon 64 system that I have sitting unused on a shelf apparently lacks it as well. 03:46:59 -!- jao [n=jao@80.31.223.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:51 Fortunately, I don't even use any of the instructions that the AMD manual calls SSE3 instructions. 03:48:24 Ah. You might be using some of the extended instructions that were later lumped into one of the SSEn revisions, but were originally added in AMD64. 03:48:49 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:48:54 Maybe. The set of instructions that I'm actually using is pretty small. 03:52:48 tjaway [n=timj@e176197040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:21 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:53:46 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 03:54:11 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176210136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:00 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:58:38 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 03:58:53 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:00:38 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-220-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:01:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:02:22 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 04:02:32 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:08:06 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:09:37 *Chani* wonders if there's any way to do something like a hashmap in scheme... or... anyhting where lookups are better than O(n) 04:10:34 Of course you can implement the data structure in Scheme. Most Scheme systems provide such a data structure already, though. What Scheme system are you using, Chani? 04:10:40 guile 04:11:03 I keep feeling like I'm using hte wrong language for the job. but our teacher wants us to do all assignments in scheme, so I'm doing it in scheme 04:11:30 what's wrong about it? 04:11:48 Did you look in the Guile manual, Chani? 04:12:03 I'm not sure, I just keep wanting to do non-functional things like jumping right to a node based on its number and modifying it and going back to where I was 04:12:22 I find myself missing pointers and arrays 04:12:36 you're probably just not used to thinking functionally 04:13:21 hmm. last time I needed to pick things based on a heuristic.. instead of iterating through the whole damn list to find the best one, I sorted them 04:13:25 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:13:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:33 but... sorting them isn't going to be so easy *this* time 04:14:16 because I want to pick hte node with the least remaining values, and every time I assign a value to a node then I have to re-sort the whole list 04:14:34 and then after that I might want to pick hte one with hte highest degree 04:14:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:15:21 There are certainly cases when destructive update to an array is the most appropriate approach to a problem. But if your instructor wants you to write your program without that, then there is probably a reasonably nice way to do so. 04:15:27 I had no problem doing parsing stuff in haskell, but trying to write a map colouring algorithm in scheme just isn't working for me. I keep thinking in terms of objects 04:16:13 and all hte textbook examples are in generic pseudocode with for-loops n'stuff. not functional at all 04:16:18 how would you do it in haskell? if it's idiomatic, it might not be too far from how you'd do it in scheme 04:16:31 Have you asked your instructor for help, by the way? 04:16:58 That does annoy me. Most CS algorithm descriptions (unless they're specifically for functional languages) are painfully imperative 04:17:15 Riastradh: no, it's the evening now. earlier today I had to go talk to him about how our TA has dropped off the map :/ but I was still writing my basic algorithm then wheich was easy 04:18:05 I'm gonna have a nice relaxing shower and see if my subonscious can solve this for me :) 04:19:05 If it doesn't, I hear using your book as a pillow does wonders 04:20:45 some of the simple forward chaining stuff shouldn't be too hard. it's just choosing the next node that's feeling so un-scheme-like. and clearing out all the used colours is icky too - the way I'm doing it right now is probably O(n*n!) or something, when really I should be able to do it in O(n) 04:21:25 it's all this searching of lists 04:22:13 maybe there's a better way to represent a graph.. but.. I can't think of one, not when there could be loops 04:22:54 Chani: What is the running time ot sorting a list? What is the running time of searching through the entire list to find the greatest element? 04:23:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:23:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:23:38 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:43 arcfide: I'm not sure, but one of my problems is I might be re-sorting the list almost as many times as I'm searching for something 04:23:51 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 04:24:08 Chani: How do you know that sorting the list is faster than iterating through the whole list? 04:25:23 arcfide: my previous assignment, I could insert the items into the correct place so that the list stayed sorted with little effort. this assignment I have no such ability so sorting could just suck.... I haven't checked yet 04:26:36 but if they're not sorted, then once I find out where the best node is, I have to go through the list *again* to separate it from that damn list 04:26:44 Chani, 1- write your code in Haskell, 2- extract it into Scheme. 04:27:04 Fare: I don't think haskell would be much good here either 04:27:09 Chani: the automated extractor will be fun to write. 04:27:11 I dunno. 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has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:48 flooborz [n=nobody@Wabc8.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 18:40:47 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:41:34 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:47:42 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:37 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:32 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:44 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-188-211.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:02:20 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-188-211.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:02:37 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-221-32.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:05:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-9.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:08:43 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #scheme 19:14:16 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:18:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.73.161] has joined #scheme 19:20:47 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-252.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:47 seamus_android [n=alistair@host86-154-174-83.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:18 The oral argument before the Supreme Court for the Bilski case was heard yesterday; its transcript is at . 19:29:20 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y8kgwkj 19:30:02 Blugh, PDF? 19:30:19 We'll see about that. 19:30:38 I will be very disappointed if the Supreme Court cracks down on wonderful patent applications like this one: http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20090271701&OS=20090271701&RS=20090271701 19:30:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ye2og3o 19:30:50 They're a wonderful source of amusement. 19:32:04 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:32:10 gnomon, since it is a PDF, they *could*, theoretically, provide nicely typeset documents. But it's quite distressing how amazingly badly typeset the documents provided by US courts are, and absurd that for something essentially typewritten as this is to use PDFs. 19:32:31 how about ? 19:32:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ybmtnvv 19:32:37 I've ripped the text out and am in the process of troff'ing it up 19:32:48 Troff? How about plain text? 19:32:53 Ah, but it's much harder to redact sections of HTML documents by overlaying a black box on the text. 19:32:58 Well, plain text first, of course. 19:33:04 oh, god; i love troff 19:33:10 Good catch, chandler. I almost forgot about that. 19:33:20 Can you do that in troff, gnomon? 19:33:26 Otherwise, of course troff won't cut it. 19:33:32 klutometis: I dare say that's less absurd than the one I linked to. 19:33:32 I believe that pic can do it! 19:34:42 chandler: you may be right; i think you linked to the God-patent, the meta patent to end all patents 19:35:08 (Fortunately, it is still just an application.) 19:36:06 I'm a little surprised that the petitioner stated without interruption from the justices about its absurdity that `the disclosure requirement of the patent laws' conduces `the free flow of information' by `requir[ing] people to disclose their inventions rather than keeping them secret.' 19:36:12 I wonder whether any of them has ever read a patent from the past century? 19:36:24 Certainly, a patent lawyer is one of the best forms of encryption I have ever heard of. 19:36:59 I think it's actually a form of steganography. 19:40:51 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:42:56 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:43:13 wingo [n=wingo@125.Red-81-39-163.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:30 Bah, pages 53 through 63 are useless indices. 19:46:44 They're getting truncated right out, that's for sure. 19:51:41 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 19:51:44 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:38 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:55:58 The respondent's argument is rather disappointing, particularly in its circumspection about whether affixing `when implemented on a general-purpose computer' makes an abstract idea patent-eligible, but it leads me to suspect that whatever comes out of the Supreme Court, it is really legislation by Congress that needs to change. 19:56:50 In other words, we're all doomed. 19:59:45 Not exactly. The Supreme Court may improve the situation -- I just think that the justices seem to be leaning away from setting down any strong decision about patent-eligibility, even if they believe it to be the right thing, simply because it is hard to interpret today the language of Congress from fifty, or two hundred, years ago, concerning patents, inventions, and technology. 20:01:32 I'll refrain from guessing at the Court's intentions; even the most knowledgeable observers are frequently unable to predict the outcome or scope of a ruling from the Justices' questions in oral arguments. 20:01:46 True. 20:02:31 The respondent's argument is still rather disappointing, though, particularly on pages 33 and 34. 20:02:54 I'm not actually reading it; I don't have the attention for it at the moment. 20:03:07 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:29 Those pages consist of the respondent waffling over whether running an abstract idea on a general-purpose computer makes it patent-eligible, which Roberts asked about quite bluntly -- basically, `I thought I understood your argument, until you said that although such and such a method isn't patentable, it might be if you implement it on a computer. That takes away everything that you spent fifty-three pages establishing.' 20:05:41 (Quote paraphrased, except for the last sentence.) 20:07:45 (For those not paying close attention, `petitioner' is the side of the Bilski fellow who tried to patent some general business method fifteen years ago, and `respondent' is the side of the US Patent Office, which said `no' to that patent, and which is trying to support the Federal Circuit's machine-or-transformation test for patentability.) 20:08:17 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-hnjowhvkhzokmgnr] has joined #scheme 20:19:27 At least the justices seem to have the right idea about whether running an abstract idea on a general-purpose machine makes the idea patentable... 20:38:22 -!- thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:53 thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:39:14 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:44:02 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-hnjowhvkhzokmgnr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:26 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:47:24 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:16 drewfer [n=drewfer@67.58.77.138] has joined #scheme 20:51:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:33 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has quit ["leaving"] 21:00:24 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:08:36 eli: how do you find interesting questions to answer on StackOverflow.com? Do you simply subscribe to an RSS feed for interesting tags (like "scheme"), or do you do something fancier? 21:09:13 that sounds like penance 21:09:33 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:11:18 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:17:16 Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:19:29 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby|android 21:20:07 offby1: I dislike using RSS, it requires me to poll... So I wrote a script to grab an RSS feed and send me an email when there are new items. 21:20:25 -!- r0bby|android is now known as r0bby 21:21:24 gnomon [n=ben@216.40.38.232] has joined #scheme 21:21:44 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:21:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/90131 , since I apparently neglected to paste it in the appropriate manner to cause it to be automagically announced. 21:22:27 Apologies for the format munging, but the 83k uncompressed file was rejected as being too large. 21:25:19 eli, you answer questions on stack overflow? 21:25:25 i should start asking some 21:27:02 samth: From time to time... 21:27:26 It's amusing. 21:27:55 eli: can I get a room at NEU through you? 21:29:21 -!- r0bby is now known as r0bby|android 21:29:32 -!- r0bby|android is now known as r0bby 21:30:45 Fare: sorry, I forgot to ask in the office today. I'll go now and see if they're still in. 21:32:01 thanks a whole lot! 21:40:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-9.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:42:40 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:07 Fare: What's the date? 21:44:23 (The date that you sent doesn't make any sense.) 21:44:28 Monday the 13th, I think 21:44:32 December 21:44:34 What month 21:44:36 ? 21:44:38 1730 - 2230 21:44:44 Dec 13 is a sunday. 21:45:02 ok, Monday the 14th 21:45:05 -!- S` [n=super@virtual.ethernet.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:13 off-by-one bug 21:45:30 I can't read those calendars, I never know which column is which day 21:45:33 ok. 21:45:44 still december, right? 21:45:46 -!- jao [n=jao@202.Red-83-43-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:45:47 yes 21:45:52 not off-by-one on the month :) 21:46:08 or the year, or century, etc. 21:48:46 as i get older, off-by-one year bugs come up more frequently 21:53:09 Fare: She said it looks fine, but she'll confirm it on thursday. 21:53:22 woot! 21:53:36 *Fare* braces his arms around eli and showers him with kisses 21:53:45 (so much easier to do on IRC) 21:53:47 Get a room, folks. 21:53:49 :) 21:54:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:54:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:54:10 *eli* didn't shave for about a day 21:54:43 that's OK, I shaved double this morning. 21:55:29 Yeah, but I'm mostly middle-eastern... 21:55:56 eli: well, OK; but from the point of view of the StackOverflow server, you're just using RSS. 21:56:00 If I don't shave for a day I can sharpen knives on my face. 21:56:07 offby1: Yes. 21:56:08 ooh, bash.org 21:56:41 bash? 21:57:33 nothing to do with bash 21:57:38 eli: it's a database of funny IRC quotes 21:57:46 Ah. 21:57:49 like incubot 21:58:01 incubot: If I don't shave for a day I can sharpen knives on my face. 21:58:05 you have 15 minutes to sharpen your Portuguese into full luterature-grade sentences ;) 21:58:20 eli: half-blood between westerner and easterner, in the average, I'm middle-eastern. 21:58:33 incubot: do you speak portuguese? 21:58:36 But I thought Godel managed to show how one could make a system speak about itself without the system explicitly having that ability. 21:59:20 incubot: does godel speak portuguese? 21:59:23 godel numbering is inefficient when you have a sequence of fixed-size types, such as characters, anyway 21:59:47 Fare: You could go for one of these tiny islands on the other side... 21:59:58 incubot: i suppose godel is such a character 22:00:01 yeah, his character is totally different. 22:00:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:37 eli: nah, I'll do like everyone, I'll go conquer the promised land. 22:00:44 incubot: a m a z i n g ! 22:05:36 Fare: BTW, how many people, roughly? 22:06:10 EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-193-240.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 22:06:39 hello chandler 22:07:02 ... 22:07:15 You can just ask the channel in general if you need help, you know. 22:07:25 I'm not the only helpful person here, and I'm often busy with other things. 22:07:28 eli: around 30 I'd say 22:07:32 Fare: Ok. 22:07:34 oh, sorry 22:07:43 20 a bad day, 40 a good day. May 70 with an exceptional speaker. 22:08:04 I should do more advertisement amongst new students at MIT, NEU, etc. 22:08:08 but no time. 22:08:16 plus I hate spamming. 22:08:22 i forget, how do i paste? 22:08:44 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:09:25 lisppaste: url? 22:09:25 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 22:09:31 EleminoP: C-y 22:09:31 Fare: It's the room we're using for most seminars etc, so it should be fine. 22:09:37 C-y 22:09:38 dzhus: That wasn't the question. 22:10:01 EleminoP: http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme 22:10:10 -!- wingo [n=wingo@125.Red-81-39-163.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:59 doh, I thought it's the #emacs channel 22:11:06 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has left #scheme 22:11:40 EleminoP pasted "ycalc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90135 22:13:17 i don't understand why i can't do it like that 22:13:35 because (printf "~s~%" 7) does work 22:13:52 ycalc - y is like an upside-down 22:13:52 EleminoP: because your function doesn't return a function you can apply to 7 22:14:26 EleminoP: when ycalc-uop gets 'print, just a string is returned 22:14:27 i thought i'd just use write or display 22:14:43 but i need the newline afterward 22:15:03 EleminoP: you need to return a function which will accept one argument so you can apply (ycalc-uop 'print) to your 7 22:15:16 ok, so write or display 22:15:37 EleminoP: you can use printf 22:15:54 alright 22:16:09 the problem i'm having is getting the newline 22:16:39 EleminoP: In the case clause [(print) printf "~s~%"], you're not actually calling the `printf' function. Did you mean to do that? 22:16:39 should it work at all? 22:17:18 EleminoP: if you call just (ycalc-uop 'print) you'll see that "~s~%" is returned instead of a function 22:17:29 yeah, i see 22:18:03 new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 22:18:16 -!- new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:43 how can i use printf at all to get it to work? 22:18:48 EleminoP: do you understand that the problem is that you try to apply a string to a numeric argument? 22:19:00 yeah, i know that it doesn't work 22:19:06 EleminoP: (printf "~s~%" 7) 22:19:24 that does work 22:19:56 i'm overlooking something that's probably very simple 22:19:57 EleminoP: can you rewrite this printf with lambda form? 22:20:40 i believe i have before 22:21:12 i just don't understand how to make the newline after the 7 22:21:25 would it be better to use write? 22:21:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:22:04 EleminoP: what for? your have quite a different problem. 22:23:03 [(print) write] does what i need except for the newline 22:23:25 EleminoP: yes, because in that case your ycalc-uop returns a function. 22:23:44 EleminoP: but your current version returns a string, which obviously cannot be applied as a function. 22:23:49 right 22:24:05 but don't i need to use printf in order to get the newline in there? 22:24:56 EleminoP: so you need to fix your code so that the function is returned. that function should take one argument X and call (printf "~s~%" X) when applied to X. 22:25:19 so i'm going to use lambda 22:25:49 ok, got it 22:26:05 i ask very dumb questions in here most of the time, sorry to waste your time 22:26:32 [(print) (lambda (x) (write x) (newline))] 22:26:38 wingo [n=wingo@29.Red-88-17-128.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:03 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 22:30:28 EleminoP: or [(print) (lambda (x) (printf "~s~%" x))] 22:31:38 right, thanks 22:33:20 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-221-32.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:46 jao [n=jao@202.Red-83-43-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:48:44 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:51 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:48:55 new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 22:49:00 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 22:50:00 incubot: Leatherback turtles tend to be the reptilian equivalent of "right-handed". 22:50:03 If elisp were a writing implement, it'd be one of those little robotic Logo turtles with a pen poking out of its belly. 22:57:16 :) 23:01:01 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 23:01:07 TR2N [i=email@89.180.172.244] has joined #scheme 23:01:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:01:25 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:04:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:35 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:16 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #scheme 23:05:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:06:14 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:36 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:08:15 MarcWeber [n=marc@88.80.200.63] has joined #scheme 23:08:33 ((?extension . ?flags) 23:08:43 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:08:43 What does this "." mean here? It's hard to lookup 23:09:37 MarcWeber: it's a cons operator 23:10:04 dmoerner: So is it equal to (cons ?extension ?flags) ? 23:11:02 -!- new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:28 MarcWeber: well (cons a b) is equivalent to '(a . b) in the interpreter 23:15:01 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 23:15:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:23 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:18:23 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:18:27 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 23:19:53 -!- EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-193-240.noc.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:22:15 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@host86-154-174-83.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:28:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:59 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 23:36:29 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:41:11 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:42:17 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:45 -!- thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:22 thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:56:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:27 Lis [n=Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:14 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme