00:01:22 -!- coprogrammer [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:06 Edwin and I believe also GNU Emacs both formerly had Space Delimited Words for Commands. Edwin switched to hyphen-delimited-words-for-commands in the early nineties. 00:10:06 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:16:08 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:20:29 minion: memo for offby1: I give up. The executable seems fine, but gdb insists on being as unhelpful as possible. 00:20:29 Remembered. I'll tell offby1 when he/she/it next speaks. 00:21:44 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has left #scheme 00:50:30 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:34 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:54:34 -!- prince [n=prince@203.246.179.177] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:30 -!- reid05 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:11 reid05 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:58:40 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 00:58:57 anyhoo 00:58:57 offby1, memo from eli: I give up. The executable seems fine, but gdb insists on being as unhelpful as possible. 00:59:00 rudybot: seen f00f 00:59:00 offby1: No sign of f00f 00:59:02 rudybot: seen foof 00:59:03 offby1: foof was seen in/on #scheme twenty-three hours ago, saying "rudybot: You don't have docs for dickory?!", and then foof was seen quitting in/on FLH1Afl135.osk.mesh.ad.jp nineteen hours ago, saying ""ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"" 01:03:43 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 01:08:23 He's back! 01:08:55 Sad state of humanity when one can miss a bot. :-/ 01:09:31 minion: say hi to rudybot 01:09:31 rudybot: what's up? 01:09:32 minion: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 01:09:33 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 01:10:16 ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 01:16:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:20:43 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:04 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:34:18 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 01:43:24 flippo [n=frivol@unaffiliated/flippo] has joined #scheme 01:47:57 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:50:51 chandler: troublemaker 01:55:21 foof [n=user@FLH1Afl135.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 01:55:59 *chandler* whistles innocently 01:59:59 S` [n=super@virtual.ethernet.org] has joined #scheme 02:08:55 *foof* wolf whistles 02:09:10 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 02:09:11 steiger [n=steiger@189.105.93.127] has joined #scheme 02:09:12 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:29 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:09:40 *Riastradh* thistles 02:13:23 *offby1* bristles 02:13:52 *Riastradh* mistles 02:14:19 *foof* toes 02:14:20 *Elly* works on number theory, which is sort of like those three things 02:14:25 *caoliver* um err ung crystals. 02:14:27 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:15:22 foof: are you accepting patches on Chibi, or do you want it to get a bit further along first before the public beats mercilessly on it? 02:16:54 Patches are usually a good way to get me to rewrite the same feature in the way I had been planning originally - I'm very fastidious about every line of code in Chibi :) 02:17:44 But I read and objectively consider every patch I've received. 02:18:18 As opposed to injectively considering every patch he receives, of course, or, worse, rejectively. 02:19:03 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:19:25 or subjectively! 02:19:45 Or surjectively. 02:20:00 Naw, that wouldn't make any sense, Elly. 02:20:07 samth [n=samth@c-65-96-170-20.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:23:10 I've also got a bit of an NIH complex about Chibi. It's not like there are many people who can say they've created an entire (almost) complete R5RS system and runtime with no external dependencies beyond libc, and not one line of code written by another person, even from the public domain. 02:23:17 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:23:24 (yes, it would be more impressive without the libc dependency) 02:23:49 Ok. You may want to redo number->string and string->number then. 02:24:01 ? 02:24:45 (number-string 255 16) should give "FF". 02:24:50 It doesn't. 02:25:15 Also, radix is restricted to 2, 8, 10, and 16. 02:25:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:25:29 it gives ff here 02:25:43 Are you running chibi 0.2? 02:25:54 no :P 02:25:56 that was plt-scheme 02:25:59 0.2 is buggy 02:26:05 Agree. 02:26:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:26:14 That particular bug was fixed quite a while ago. 02:26:28 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-115-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:27:06 Do you have a git or something like, so others can pull the current state? 02:28:24 Pans on the stove. BRB 02:29:11 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:01 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 02:31:29 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:31:39 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:33:24 incubot: Pants on the stove 02:33:27 #477: "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours. That's relativity."    - Albert Einstein 02:33:33 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 02:33:33 caoliver: the hg repo is at http://groups.google.com/group/chibi-scheme 02:35:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:35:39 foof: abort: 'http://groups.google.com/group/chibi-scheme' does not appear to be an hg repository! 02:36:03 geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has joined #scheme 02:36:20 erm... try http://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/issues/list?cursor=7&updated=7&ts=1257371749 :) 02:36:22 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yblhy9o 02:36:28 yeah 02:36:35 was about to say "s/groups/code" 02:36:35 or rather http://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/ 02:36:49 *sigh* 02:36:51 same error 02:37:20 hg clone https://chibi-scheme.googlecode.com/hg/ chibi-scheme 02:37:30 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:37:33 got it 02:37:44 so googlecode does hg now. Cool 02:37:49 probably Ben Collins-Sussman at work 02:40:42 i need a fuel cell 02:48:54 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-fwglbwpxbdzvfpft] has joined #scheme 02:49:20 Hello all 02:49:29 anyone know where I can get a copy of Idyl from? 02:52:36 *offby1* stares blankly 02:52:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:54:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:14 Thanks. I'm sorry if I sound a bit pushy. I'm interested in that I think Chibi is not just a reason to forget SIOD and tinyscheme, but Lua as well. 02:54:29 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:55:12 *caoliver* stares blankly at offby1 02:58:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:02:34 caoliver: Be as pushy as you want, and definitely report bugs. 03:02:45 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:04:07 *r2q2* stares blankly at caoliver and offby1 03:04:31 -!- r2q2 [n=user@dhcp-vlan3242-31-162.wireless.uic.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:32 *offby1* yawns 03:07:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 03:26:45 Whoops, there was still a bug in base 16 formatting in dev, I just fixed that. 03:29:49 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:30:24 -!- gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:42 -!- samth [n=samth@c-65-96-170-20.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:34:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:41:56 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:58 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@69.226.133.43] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:58 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:03:16 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:37 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:05:21 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:53 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:31 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:43 tjafk [n=timj@e176210136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:23 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176207227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:20 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@208.92.234.202] has quit ["changing servers"] 04:14:25 -!- fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:26:05 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-135-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:27:22 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:30:27 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-fwglbwpxbdzvfpft] has quit [] 04:32:47 -!- splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:49:45 Gee, I didn't realize in just what a sorry state general Scheme system performance measurement is in. Naturally, it's hard for such measurement to be precise, but it would be nice to have a convenient way to get a rough indication of how a single variable affects a wide range of programs. 04:50:47 Producing results from the Twobit or Gambit benchmarks, let alone *re*producing any results, appears to have been made deliberately non-trivial. 04:51:58 Nothing like `Load chez-run.scm into Chez to get a report from Chez, larceny-run.scm into Larceny to get a report from Larceny, mit-run.scm to get a report from MIT Scheme, &c.' More like `Here's a collection of files. Here's an English description of what each program does. Do what thou wilt with them.' 04:52:45 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:56:07 -!- Lis2 [n=Lis@p5B20492B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:01 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:01:27 *jcowan* unvanishes. 05:01:53 Poof! 05:01:57 ...no, sorry, I mean: 05:01:57 Foop! 05:02:52 Poop! 05:04:01 voop! 05:06:15 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:06:37 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:29 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:18:43 Goop! 05:21:57 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:25:49 It would furthermore be nice if the code in the Twobit and Gambit benchmarks were idiomatic Scheme, rather than a halfhearted translation of idiomatic Maclisp^WCommon Lisp (tL1) and Pascal or C. 05:26:53 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:35:02 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:13 arcfide [i=arcfide@99.137.202.58] has joined #scheme 05:48:39 jcowan: Am I being stupid and obstinate about ICS? I'd like to know if I'm missing something here and should post a retraction. :-) 05:49:25 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:35 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 05:59:40 'nite folk! 05:59:46 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 06:02:56 arcfide, `if [syntactic modules] is the *right* solution to modules': no. It fails to solve problems that real programs need to have solved in any description of their organization -- namely, giving information about what you files you need to look at in order to derive information about the program. It is not acceptable to load every source file of a system into a Scheme program just to perform operations such as compiling one 06:13:16 I have a great idea. We can start up a secret forum for the reasonable people (excluding certain *ahem* vocal parties on r6rs-discuss) to have a clear and cogent discussion about the next Scheme report, and then only pretend to discuss on the public forum and make less and less sense, fighting fire with fire, until the other fire goes away and does its own thing. 06:34:10 -!- ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:35:44 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 06:36:06 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-135-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:12 -!- ContraSF [n=email@89.180.212.188] has left #scheme 06:46:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 06:47:38 -!- reid05 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:43 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 06:58:33 mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:01:23 xwl` [n=user@125.34.175.198] has joined #scheme 07:02:45 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:03:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:04:52 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.175.198] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:50 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-c6c0f31c3688ad51] has quit ["Page closed"] 07:13:34 arcfide: I think you are entirely right. 07:15:48 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:17:45 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:24:21 Riastradh: I don't understand exactly what your complaint is. Are you suggesting that it is impossible to support separate compilation of files in the presence of syntactic module systems? 07:27:51 Chez Scheme does not have any "resolution" scheme for determining which files contain the code to which module, except for 'include,' but this doesn't load the file, it just reads in the forms. It is perfectly possible to determine what files need examining to derive information about the program with a syntactic system. It is also perfectly possible to compile one module without having to completely load the files which contain the modules on 07:27:52 which the module you are compiling depend. 07:28:02 "which contain the modules on..." 07:29:18 -!- mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:53 bruxno` [n=ET@61.242.215.226] has joined #scheme 07:33:51 arcfide, suppose I have a large program. There are some complex dependencies between the various parts of this program. This program's organization is described as a collection of Chez modules. I have compiled the system, but I made some changes. 07:34:14 How does Chez find out what parts of the system need to be recompiled? 07:35:04 -!- bruxno` [n=ET@61.242.215.226] has left #scheme 07:37:15 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:19 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:45:54 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 07:50:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 07:54:52 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:58:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:00:08 minion: memo for jcowan I propose that the next Scheme report have a reference implementation for macro expansion, and that riaxpander be it. (Take this proposal as jestingly or as seriously as you wish -- although I do seriously think it important to specify the macro expansion semantics clearly and precisely, and the R6RS has shown that this is hard to do in English, and I hardly think that psyntax is a paragon of clarity...) 08:00:08 scheme is the root of all evil 08:00:14 minion: memo for jcowan: I propose that the next Scheme report have a reference implementation for macro expansion, and that riaxpander be it. (Take this proposal as jestingly or as seriously as you wish -- although I do seriously think it important to specify the macro expansion semantics clearly and precisely, and the R6RS has shown that this is hard to do in English, and I hardly think that psyntax is a paragon of clarity...) 08:00:14 Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks. 08:01:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:07:33 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:07:58 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:30 Riastradh: Currently, this sort of functionality is not built-in to Chez's module system, but it does provide this for R6RS Libraries. 08:12:02 It does this by tracking "compilation instances." 08:12:33 mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.218] has joined #scheme 08:13:12 When you recompile a library which other compiled libraries need (necessitating a recompile of those libraries), then when you import any library affected by this recompilation, you will be alerted to the fact. At present, there is no support for automatic recompilation. 08:13:52 This isn't really a very heavily requested feature in Chez, but I am fairly confident that there isn't a technical limitation here. 08:15:33 Moreover, I'm not sure that this program organization needs to be described with modules. 08:15:36 Not in the way you suggest. 08:15:47 But I must go to bed now. 08:16:16 bombshelter13___ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:16:18 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@99.137.202.58] has left #scheme 08:18:50 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:19:47 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:45 pavelludiq 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[n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 18:57:48 can anyone think of a creative file suffix for "scheme template"; maybe .stp or .scm.tpl? 18:58:17 .scm sufficeth, i guess; that's true 18:58:37 .scheme-template 18:59:28 nice; i forgot that the three letter suffix is a DOS vestige we can do without 19:01:19 .scm.in? 19:02:07 There is a merit to short names for files -- they fit more compactly in directory listings that way. 19:04:34 It is sometimes somewhat frustrating to run `ls' in the Edwin source code, and to find three columns rather than five mainly because of a single file called `debian-changelog.scm'. 19:09:14 (For context, this is a directory which, when its contents are fully compiled with RTL and assembly listings for my debugging purposes, holds over a thousand files.) 19:23:04 *mejja* computes (/ 1000 .scm .ext .bin .bci .com .lap .rtl) => (/ 1000 7) => 142 19:26:56 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 19:28:27 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-103-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:33:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:33:46 jao [n=jao@80.31.223.187] has joined #scheme 19:39:26 Chani [n=chani@twinsen.warpedgames.com] has joined #scheme 19:40:29 is there an easy way to produce a list of numbers 1-n? or should I make one myself? 19:40:52 ... eh, actually it'd probably take less time to write than to find an answer 19:41:20 Chani: Use `iota' from SRFI-1. 19:42:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-253.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:43:17 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:41 -!- linas [n=linas@gnucash.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:48:37 linas [n=linas@gnucash.org] has joined #scheme 19:51:33 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:51:56 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@99.232.20.26] 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joined #scheme 20:15:11 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-toddagimyzvqhttw] has joined #scheme 20:22:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-3-17.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:23:36 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:23:36 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:40 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 20:28:48 I suspect that among you high-level Schemely lambda calculators, there are some who hide away a dark secret of enjoying the grubby machine-level bits horrible instruction set architectures such as the x86-64. For you, I have a challenge: find the shortest (bytewise or instructionwise), or fastest, sequence of x86-64 instructions to load into a general-purpose register #xA000000000000000 + some PC-relative address (not the value a 20:29:17 Truncated at "not the value a" 20:29:23 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@host86-151-40-23.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:27 ...(not the value at that address, but the address itself). 20:30:20 It is OK if the general-purpose register in question is not rsp, rbp, rsi, or rdi, but it must work for any other general-purpose register (rax, rcx, rdx, rbx, r8-r15). 20:31:11 It is also OK if it uses extra memory, but in that case, you will have a harder time showing that it is optimal under any of the three metrics. 20:31:48 Also, the PC, and the PC-relative address, will be in the lower 48 bits of the virtual address space. 20:32:07 i enjoy such things, but my enjoyment springs from ignorance. so i am of no help. 20:32:13 errordeveloper [n=errordev@host86-151-40-23.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:32:20 *leppie* too 20:32:47 all those numbers just looked too much like accounting 20:34:27 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #scheme 20:34:31 You may also use a temporary register, so, for example, this sequence works (target on the left): movq rT, #xA000000000000000; leaq rX, label(rip); or rT, rT. Here rX is the destination register and rT is the temporary register. 20:34:54 Excuse me, the last instruction should be `orq rX, rT'. 20:36:07 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:38:32 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:46 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-214.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 20:45:11 -!- incwolf_ is now known as incwolf 20:45:32 Riastradh, 1- load label*8(rip), then rol? 20:45:49 label*8+5 20:46:11 ror, surely. 20:46:11 rip*8 20:46:22 one man's rol in another man's ror. 20:46:34 but yes, ror rX, 3 20:46:44 what do I win? 20:47:12 You get a chance to test whether MIT Scheme got any faster! 20:47:21 woohoo! 20:47:43 so you made MIT Scheme into an "everything is an IEEE double" Scheme? 20:47:47 No. 20:48:32 why tag the high bits, btw? 20:48:45 Just trying to bum its instruction sequence for pushing a continuation onto the stack. The compiled entry tag (i.e. the tag on pointers to machine instructions) is #x28, which when shifted left by 58 is #xA0&c. 20:48:58 MIT Scheme uses a high-tagging scheme. 20:50:04 On i386, this operation fit in a single LEA instruction (usually followed by a push). 20:50:15 were 3-high-bits-only tags chosen to be the most-used ones? 20:50:38 No. The tag is actually six bits. 20:51:22 so you'll spend plenty of time using slower instruction sequences for "wrong" tags? 20:51:36 It's just that #x28 happens to be the only tag affixed to PC-relative addresses, so I thought I'd simplify the statement of the problem by just giving #xA0&c. 20:51:43 (which shouldn't matter much as long as you instructions fit into cache) 20:51:53 No, this is really the only tag that will be used for this sequence. 20:52:08 you're lucky its 3 lowbits are zero. 20:52:14 Doesn't matter, really. 20:52:29 interesting. i have never heard of high-tagging systems. 20:52:39 besides things like bibop 20:52:41 In fact what I'm implementing will not assume that, unless I run into a problem with compiled code blocks that exceed a gigabyte or so. 20:52:57 (More precisely, with continuations that are very far away from the places where they are pushed.) 20:53:01 wingo, was all the rage on 68000 machines, with 32-bit address registers, stripped to 24-bits on the bus... 20:53:18 Quite. 20:54:00 *Fare* remembers the bad old times when you went through length to save a few bits there, because memory was so expensive. 20:55:01 wingo: I have a high-tagging system implemented, except the tags are not a fixed number of bits on top of the object, but rather based on ranges of objects chosen by the kernel's VM 20:55:17 chandler: like bibop then? 20:55:31 I'm afraid I haven't heard of bibop, actually. 20:55:38 big bag of pages 20:55:51 allows for untagged data in the heap 20:56:04 chandler: docs? 20:56:11 i believe maclisp used it, and chez scheme still uses a variant of it afaik 20:56:13 In BIBOP schemes, the type tag is part of the object's address. 20:56:19 right. 20:56:23 Chez uses something closer to what chandler describes. 20:56:24 mejja: are you asking about my system? I haven't released any of the code, so no 20:56:58 ok... 20:56:58 Fare: For what it's worth, right now we have 64-bit addresses that are stripped to 48 bits on the bus. 20:57:29 chandler, will the CPU fault you if you don't fit one of the official addresses? 20:57:52 The type tag is still in the low-order bits in Chez, but the high-order bits are used to identify the object's generation and certain properties of its storage (e.g., large objects, or objects with weak references, &c. have different high tags). 20:58:47 nice. 20:59:30 Fare: I'd guess that anything which does not map externally will cause a page fault 21:00:00 Riastradh: Does it use a defined number of bits for this information? 21:00:25 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:00:27 I don't remember. You can read the paper, though; it has the word `BIBOP' in the title, and the authors are the usual suspects, so it's easy to find. 21:01:38 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-toddagimyzvqhttw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:12 chandler: the kernel can give you whatever (virtual) address tho 21:02:40 assuming you're not writing a kernel ;) 21:02:45 Yes, indeed. 21:03:02 Oh, I have read this paper before. 21:04:21 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 21:04:22 The approach I am using is somewhat different, in that I still assume that I can grab many chunks of several GB each of contiguous address space at a whack, since the address space available is (for now at least) much, much larger than actual physically-mapped page limits. 21:04:50 interesting. 21:05:16 But a fundamentally similar segment table is still in use. 21:08:17 Fare, by the way, a scale of 2^3 vs 2^6 there doesn't matter: the SIB format doesn't support the RIP-relative addressing mode, so LEA just loads the value of RIP + displacement into the target register. The scaling happens at compile-time -- it's the assembler that multiplies the offset from the beginning of the next instruction to the label (and adds the tag), not the machine. 21:08:42 (Or rather, it matters only in the limit that it imposes on the distance from the next instruction to the label.) 21:10:06 I hope you're aware of the curiosity you are arousing, and tantalizing, by mentioning this, by the way, chandler! 21:10:41 :) 21:11:09 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-135-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:49 To put a damper on the curiosity, it is not for a garbage collected system: it is a malloc implementation for a very specific set of use cases, which is lock-free and guaranteed to complete on allocation, and usually non-contending on freeing 21:12:24 Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:12:55 curiosity. not. dampened. 21:12:59 er 21:13:02 dampered? 21:13:16 Maybe try a bucket of ice water? 21:14:07 Riastradh, too bad. 21:16:10 On an unrelated note, I have often heard that modern x86 implementations treat certain oft-used memory locations as registers by caching them in an internal register file. But I don't know how this works, and after a whole five minutes of Googling I haven't found any citations about it; does anyone have any citations? 21:17:56 wingo: Heh. Well, it was originally written for a commercial application that got delayed into infinity (and beyond!). No free time right now to pursue releasing the source, but I'll let you know when I get around to that. 21:18:10 chandler: cool. sounds like a fun hack :) 21:18:25 *wingo* likes sneeking scheme into unsuspecting pieces of hardware 21:18:37 Gastrointestinal [n=nobody@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:19:06 PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:19:06 Riastradh, that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_cache ? 21:19:30 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:21 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:20:58 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:35 -!- PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:37 PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:22:57 -!- PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:06 PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:23:40 -!- Gastrointestinal [n=nobody@W9795.w.pppool.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:10 Perhaps it is merely the CPU cache, MichaelRaskin, but everyone has CPU caches, whereas I am pretty sure I have heard rumours of something closer to a large register file (and faster than your average neighbourhood CPU cache), for which only the first sixteen entries have names in the ISA. 21:24:34 In fact I'm pretty sure I have heard this rumour propagated in this very channel, but I don't remember by whom. 21:24:48 faster than L1 cache?? 21:25:02 L1 cache hit costs 1 tact 21:25:42 Now, compilers may place some variables into registers 21:25:51 But that is not so much arch-specific 21:26:10 Although amd64 having a lot of registers helps this strategy 21:26:50 Yes, that is not what I am referring to. 21:26:57 (`A lot'?) 21:27:22 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-jahbugihhdrcwimn] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:28:07 (Twelve, or fourteen, depending on how one counts, is not really `a lot' compared to the number of general-purpose registers exhibited by most other popular architectures.) 21:28:36 SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 21:29:52 A lot for what gcc got used to during its years on x86 21:30:19 Riastradh: The larger register file is used to rename groups of instructions that can be executed in parallel. 21:30:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming 21:30:45 There are a large number of these on a typical x86 processor. (~100 IIRC?) 21:31:30 But a large number of registers is not the same thing as a large number of register names. 21:31:33 I see. That's why I had the term `rename registers' running through my head. 21:32:26 *wingo* learns things. 21:32:42 gnomon_: Indeed. It's still a pain for architecture users, but there are ways to schedule instructions to maximize the effect of register renaming. 21:33:20 Personally, I'm quite happy with the 16 GPRs I have now on this here ARM part. 21:35:22 The context is that currently MIT Scheme, on both i386 and x86-64, stores return values in memory, rather than in a register, although always in the same location in memory. I tested dedicating a register to the purpose, and came to thoroughly inconclusive results after an entire twenty minutes on trying to hack up Scheme benchmarks to dazzle me with performance increases. 21:35:40 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:39 Riastradh: for implementing "linearized" traversal over a tree data structure, I guess its easier to use nested-foof-loop that to write a linearizing foof-loop iterator, right? 21:37:08 Can you be more specific? 21:39:00 ok, I have a tree that essentially represents a filesystem directory. I want to iterate over all leafs (files) and, say, accumulate their contents 21:39:04 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:40:25 (I already have a foof-loop iterator for the "directory contents", i.e. the children of a directory node) 21:41:31 Gastrointestinal [n=nobody@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:42:51 (to be even more specific: -- the foof-loop iterator is `in-inventory') 21:43:31 -!- PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has left #scheme 21:44:17 IN-INVENTORY may be useful even if certain cases are more efficiently written with recursively nested loops. 21:44:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:45:10 Riastradh: http://gmplib.org/~tege/x86-timing.pdf 21:45:12 As a matter of style, though, the result variable should be put among the variables of IN-INVENTORY, not among its arguments. 21:45:53 mejja, now how did you know that I was editing x86-64/machin.scm's RTL:CONSTANT-COST as we speak? 21:50:25 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:54:03 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 21:55:16 PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 21:55:40 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:07 -!- PongoTwistleton [n=user@W9795.w.pppool.de] has left #scheme 21:57:14 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:58:47 Riastradh: ok, style issue acknowledged 21:59:53 but in-inventory doesn't recurse -- for the recursive case, what would you do? 22:00:23 I see. I assumed that an inventory served as a fringe cursor. 22:01:02 Really, it depends on whether you want to expose your data structure as a recursive one, or whether you want to abstract that into a cursor. 22:01:10 Both are sometimes useful. 22:01:20 in the particuliar case, I want a cursor 22:01:58 so, write another, recursive, foof-loop iterator? 22:02:49 I'd implement a cursor data structure and just use that -- I suppose rather than INVENTORY-NEXT, &c., you'd have INVENTORY-CURSOR-NEXT, &c. 22:03:05 If you need this to happen conveniently, you can just write a simple FOR-EACH-like procedure that does the iteration, and invert that into a cursor using shift & reset. 22:05:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 22:06:15 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:24 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 22:13:56 mejja: looks like a nice link, thanks 22:14:13 mejja: i see you are in sweden. going to fscons by chance? 22:14:23 fscons? 22:14:46 http://fscons.org/ 22:14:52 i guess not :) 22:16:37 Gee, Gothenburg... 22:16:43 heh ;) 22:16:52 that's what a swedish friend said here ;) 22:17:07 Ha ha :) 22:17:09 -!- Lis [n=Lis@p5B206E18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 22:18:41 Riastradh: ok, thanks for the advice 22:18:49 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:20:25 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:28:45 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-220-234.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:29:15 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 22:29:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 22:29:49 TR2N [i=email@89-180-154-183.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 22:33:05 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:36:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-3-17.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:01:17 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 23:01:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:01:31 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:02:18 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:11:02 Perceptron [n=chatzill@d142-058-095-110.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #scheme 23:11:28 Hey guys I was wondering if anyone has done any of the "vertex coloring" algorithms in scheme by anychance 23:12:13 -!- wingo [n=wingo@64.Red-83-44-188.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:19 splork [n=ben@dsl092-075-228.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:39 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:23:01 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:26:20 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:48 -!- Gastrointestinal [n=nobody@W9795.w.pppool.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:00 EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-193-143.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 23:30:15 chandler : can you help me with something? 23:35:41 -!- Perceptron [n=chatzill@d142-058-095-110.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:35 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 23:42:45 asdfasd [i=email@89.180.146.13] has joined #scheme 23:43:10 *jcowan* unvanishes. 23:44:54 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:54:16 Riastradh: ping 23:54:16 jcowan, memo from Riastradh: I propose that the next Scheme report have a reference implementation for macro expansion, and that riaxpander be it. (Take this proposal as jestingly or as seriously as you wish -- although I do seriously think it important to specify the macro expansion semantics clearly and precisely, and the R6RS has shown that this is hard to do in English, and I hardly think that psyntax is a paragon of clarity...) 23:54:35 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-154-183.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:54:47 -!- asdfasd is now known as TR2N 23:56:17 asdfasd [i=email@89-180-146-13.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 23:56:48 jcowan: Kapwing! 23:57:31 Riastradh: Rzt rzt rzzzt 23:58:04 Anyhow, reference implementations come in two flavors, the exemplary and the defining. I take it you mean to ask for the latter (the former would certainly be a Good Thing) 23:58:09 Is this one of those `be a great actor in your own living room!' things? 23:58:47 *jcowan* shakes his head uncomprehendingly, the meme space of "stares blankly" being too crowded.