00:03:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:17 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:05:07 oh my goodness 00:05:30 I thought scheme was a great language, but this is unprecedented. 00:05:50 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:51 I just accidentally solved a problem. My mistake corrected it before it even happened. 00:12:44 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:00 Riastradh, what is the current state of the MIT Scheme module system? (Hypothetical?) 00:19:17 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:05 kilimanjaro: Vaporware? 00:22:40 mejja, sorry, I wasn't implying that my question was hypothetical, but perhaps the module system currently is 00:23:42 -!- gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has quit [] 00:23:46 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-33-214.vinet.ba] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:25:27 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:31 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:43:48 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:12 -!- schmir` [n=schmir@p54A90C6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:16 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90C6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:19 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:50:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:06 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 00:55:30 gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has joined #scheme 01:06:04 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:09:46 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:10:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:34 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:15:00 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:15:07 kilimanjaro: I don't know what is going on with the module system, but there is a crazy package system in there, and it's not generally recommended for normal use. 01:17:52 arcfide: ? 01:19:28 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 01:27:30 ventonegro [n=alex@c9519130.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 01:28:41 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@host86-151-40-23.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:58 Hi, late to the nifty discussoin on H-M, but a nice compromise that still "feels natural" and might work well for the case discussed is to provide explicit type signatures for any functions that are exported from the module (compilation unit, what have you). 01:36:16 mejja: MIT Scheme does have a package system. Generally, it isn't recommended for use. 01:36:29 At least, that's what I've heard from most people. 01:36:35 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-181.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:38:55 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-5-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:42:22 errordeveloper [n=errordev@host86-151-40-23.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 01:50:24 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:50:36 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:55:54 How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored? 01:58:27 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:22 Ganan gidel dagan bagan, dagan gadol gadal bagan. 02:09:42 Riastradh: after reading for decades about how to pack addresses, fixnums and the odd immediate best into 32 bits, any information on how values are laid out in MIT Scheme x86-64 02:11:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:21 Summermute: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/microcode/object.h 02:12:22 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/y9erhc4 02:13:48 Thx! 02:15:43 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:52 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-181.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:46 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:17:59 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:18:20 Summermute, no differently from on every other architecture, except in the precise layout of compiled entry points, which may change (again) shortly. 02:19:37 Every object is represented by a bit string of length k (32 or 64, usually) which is divided into two parts, six high-order bits for a type tag and k-6 low-order bits for a datum, which for some objects represents an address into memory. 02:19:45 been a few years frobbing c - are these high bit tags/masks 02:20:52 whoops answered my q faster than i can type with 1 finger 02:21:22 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:09 >32 bit fixnum - brings a tear to my eye ;) 02:23:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5cd5f3baee374228] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:24:05 Um, pretty much any Scheme system on a 64-bit machine will have fixnums exceeding 32 bits. 02:24:41 i know - yust yoking 02:25:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:26:28 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@c9519130.virtua.com.br] has quit [] 02:27:42 Now a 65 bit word (dedicated tag bit) and a max 32 bit address for fitting a cons cell in a single word/register - hmmmmm, that would make for a fun RTS :-) 02:28:51 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:50 Oh and automagical 'free' write barrier on memory segments 02:32:12 Is anyone here familiar with the Hyyro Bit-parallel diagonal tiling string edit distance functions and their implementation? 02:32:47 Now that i think of it, when 99% of the world two generations from now are coding in Ruby or Python or Scheme and derivatives, that's probably not far from what machines will look like (but even more bits per word and, of course, oodles of cores that we *still* won't know exactly what to do with) 02:34:09 arcfide: Hey! Levenshtein distances again :-) 02:36:43 Summermute: yes, and I've found an algorithm I want to play with, but there are two details (maybe three) that I can't understand from the paper(s), and I'm having trouble guessing them. 02:37:44 i'm dim enough that i can never seem to understand > 1/2 of nearly any paper written in academia ;-) 02:39:07 I have successfully "cheated" in the past and gone and found some open, readable sources that implement the (to me) otherwise not-quite-comprehensible algorithm or subsystem. 02:47:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:53:13 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:55:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:05 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:04:12 sg [n=segoe@83.231.46.207] has joined #scheme 03:04:26 -!- sg is now known as segoe 03:04:31 hi 03:14:35 segoe: Hello. 03:14:51 hi arcfide :) 03:23:44 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11:39:45 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@dyn-145116032208.guest.tue.nl] has quit [] 11:52:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-169.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:52:35 reduce is not a primitive procedure? 11:53:03 rudybot__, eval (reduce + '(1 2 3)) 11:53:04 Edico: your sandbox is ready 11:53:04 Edico: error: reference to undefined identifier: reduce 11:54:13 rudybot__, eval (filter word? '((foo bar) 'buz)) 11:54:13 Edico: error: reference to undefined identifier: word? 11:54:52 rudybot__, eval (filter even? '(1 2 3 4)) 11:54:53 Edico: ; Value: (2 4) 11:55:22 What's reduce? 11:55:55 Apply a combining function to all elements of list. 11:56:14 That certainly doesn't have to be primitive. 11:57:39 rudybot__, (map square '(1 2 3)) 11:57:39 Edico: eh? Try "rudybot__: help". 11:57:59 rudybot__, eval (map square '(1 2 3)) 11:57:59 Edico: error: reference to undefined identifier: square 11:58:18 Where are you pulling these functions from? 11:58:35 rudybot__, eval (define (square x) (* x x)) (map square '(1 2 3)) 11:58:36 Edico: ; Value: (1 4 9) 12:00:13 rudybot__, eval (define (foldr fn list) (if (nil? list) list (fn (car list) (foldr fn (cdr list))))) 12:00:13 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 12:01:13 Oh, wait 12:01:25 rudybot__, eval (define (foldr fn seed list) (if (nil? list) seed (fn (car list) (foldr fn (cdr list))))) 12:02:21 rudybot__, eval (foldr + 0 (list 1 2 3 4 5)) 12:02:21 Jafet: error: reference to undefined identifier: nil? 12:03:14 Hmm, shouldn't that be caught at the definition? 12:04:05 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:09:11 xwl`` [n=user@123.115.124.208] has joined #scheme 12:11:13 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:14:59 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:57 pdponze [n=user@47-86.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 12:23:42 foof` [n=user@FLH1Afl135.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:24:29 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:26:27 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:26:43 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:27:41 -!- xwl` [n=user@123.115.109.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:10 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 12:36:30 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:36:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:35 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 12:39:46 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Afl135.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:27 -!- foof` is now known as foof 12:52:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:58 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 13:07:20 Edico: it seems, that any language that doesn't have algebraic types has problems with "reduce". 13:08:05 "Algebraic" in common sense, not as haskellers use it. 13:08:14 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:08:50 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:20:09 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:24 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:35:26 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-75285c2d68c3b5b6] has quit ["Page closed"] 13:40:33 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:50:50 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:57:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:09:21 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:42 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:12:06 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:14:39 rudybot__, eval ((define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce - '(1 2 3)) 14:14:40 Edico: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 14:15:04 rudybot__, eval ((define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l))))) (reduce - '(1 2 3)) 14:15:05 Edico: error: eval:1:1: define-values: illegal use (not at top-level) in: (define-values (reduce) (new-lambda (fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l))))) 14:15:26 rudybot__, eval ((define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) 14:15:26 Edico: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 14:16:32 rudybot__, eval ((define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l))))) 14:16:33 Edico: error: eval:1:1: define-values: illegal use (not at top-level) in: (define-values (reduce) (new-lambda (fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l))))) 14:19:53 rudybot__, eval ((define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l))))) 14:19:53 Edico: error: eval:1:1: define-values: illegal use (not at top-level) in: (define-values (reduce) (new-lambda (fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l))))) 14:20:05 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) 14:20:18 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce + '(1 2 3)) 14:20:18 Edico: ; Value: 6 14:20:25 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce - '(1 2 3)) 14:20:25 Edico: ; Value: -4 14:20:51 that is reduce :) 14:21:45 jeapostrophe [n=jay@dyn-145116032208.guest.tue.nl] has joined #scheme 14:22:12 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce / '(12 2 3)) 14:22:12 Edico: ; Value: 2 14:22:59 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce / '(64 2 2 4)) 14:22:59 Edico: ; Value: 4 14:23:05 rudybot__, eval (define (reduce fn l) (if (null? (cddr l)) (fn (car l) (cadr l)) (fn (reduce fn (bl l)) (last l)))) (define (bl l) (if (null? (cdr l)) '() (cons (car l) (bl (cdr l))))) (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l)))) (reduce / '(64 2 4)) 14:23:06 Edico: ; Value: 8 14:26:19 -!- xwl`` [n=user@123.115.124.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:15 Edico: rudybot__ works in private too 14:30:06 yes, I know, but I wanted to show all the people :) 14:30:17 I always thought "reduce" was for languages lacking the more proper foldl and foldr 14:30:49 took me 1.5 hours to find that solution 14:31:23 Edico: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1-reference.scm 14:33:58 but isnt reduce just a single list version of fold-left? 14:33:58 or is that fold-right? 14:34:37 reduce and foldl are both 'lefties' 14:34:52 foldl takes and init arg 14:35:37 ahh, but do accept multiple lists? 14:35:59 reduce takes a dflt arg for empty sequence and first if only arg of one arg sequence and otherwise works like foldl 14:36:00 reduce that is 14:36:11 try keeping all that mess straight :-) 14:36:42 I must admit, I do not utilize those procs nearly enough 14:37:18 Oh, you mean like 'map' with n-arity functions applied against n lists? Good question. 14:37:31 yes, fold-left support that too 14:37:57 mejja, that reduce is not good 14:37:58 and fold-right 14:38:05 mine is better 14:38:06 Yeah, the sfri folds support it 14:38:33 mejja, test that reduce with - (minus) function 14:38:40 harder to do in a typed language :-) 14:38:46 my reduce works better 14:40:25 Edico: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/mail-archive/msg00022.html 14:41:08 One of the very cool things typed scheme can do is properly type functions like map(f(t1...tn), list[t1] ... list[tn]) ;; using not real syntax in particular but i hope the point is made 14:41:37 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:42:06 Dependent typing is overrated 14:43:36 I think that is almost impossible in statically typed language 14:43:36 unless you create overloads for every arity 14:44:31 mejja, I don't have all the their to test it but I'm sure mine is better, I thought it more than 1.5 hours 14:44:35 You can do that in the new C++ standard 14:44:36 or have some compile generative system derived from type inference infomation 14:44:45 And in silly research languages like Agda 14:45:45 mejja, I don't have all those functions from there to test it but I'm sure mine is better, I thought it more than 1.5 hours 14:45:45 Or in Summermute's hypothetical typed scheme 14:46:48 Summermute: do you have example how to do such a type contract in Typed Scheme? 14:46:52 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:47:34 Edico: I have thought about IronScheme for many years, and it's still slow! 14:48:03 but I bet is the best IronScheme that exists 14:52:26 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:52:41 gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:20 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:00:05 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:37 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:06:54 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:07:03 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:07:59 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:09:46 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:18:19 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:18:48 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:18:49 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 15:25:42 reid02 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:25:47 Um, no "typed-scheme" is a dialect of PLT Scheme. And it's not hypothetical. And the typing works exactly as described for "map" et. al. and you can read the paper all about it if you feel like it. Google will be your friend in that case. 15:26:03 i'm reading already :) 15:26:20 very good info, just taking time to comprehend 15:26:47 typed-scheme is still a work in progress (I'm learning), but the typing variable arity higher order functions thing is super duper cool. 15:37:26 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:49 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:17 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:45:20 -!- cipher [i=weinsd0@monica.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:46:25 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:47:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 15:48:18 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 15:48:28 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:49:21 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:32 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:02:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:04:13 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 16:06:19 p[0]p [n=none@94.230.83.96] has joined #scheme 16:06:41 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 16:06:54 -!- pdponze [n=user@47-86.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:07:01 hi, anyone could point me out to an ANF algorithm?(not a CPS one) 16:08:05 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:36 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:27 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-251.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:19:33 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@dyn-145116032208.guest.tue.nl] has quit [] 16:21:26 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:25:07 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:31:19 BTW, the literature on CPS is really pretty darn good, but personally, I've found really *practical* ANF oriented papers pretty much absent. Please post to the list if you find anything useful. 16:33:45 I hope you folks realize that neither CPS nor ANF recovers any information from a program that was not locally syntactically apparent. They just make the program's representation more uniform for the convenience of meta-programs such as compilers, and give explicit representation to entities (intermediate values, continuations) that were not named in the program. 16:55:43 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:56:15 Sure, I get that. I'm just a lazy practicioner type who actually wants to *see* code or pseudocode for some optimization or other in CPs 16:56:25 whoops, or ANF or whatever. 16:56:53 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:59 OK. There's some code that does that in Twobit. 16:57:15 Cool! 16:59:21 By now an old saw, one of the things i like about "Compiling with Continuations" is that it's an actual (pretty well written, too) book I can sit down and read, go back and mull over parts, etc. Someone should write some equivalent book using ANF as the intermediate language, with Ruby as the target language - just kidding ;-) 17:00:45 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 17:04:23 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:04:41 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:02 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:07 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:14:33 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 17:19:51 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:08 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:24 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:33:22 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 17:33:41 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has left #scheme 17:40:11 -!- webframp [n=webframp@unaffiliated/webframp] has quit ["leaving"] 17:44:10 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:44:18 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:05 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:08 TR2N [i=email@89.180.189.41] has joined #scheme 17:58:56 ejs [n=eugen@46-52-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:29 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 18:08:22 dudrenov [n=user@adsl-99-147-43-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:03 jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-5-164.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:18:00 jeapostrophe [n=jay@88.128.85.58] has joined #scheme 18:24:03 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:31:58 hi guys 18:32:15 i want to write something similar to anf transformation 18:32:48 exception that it should not generate let for each sub excpression 18:32:54 for example: 18:33:29 for this expression: (a (b c) (d e)) it will generate: (let (g1 (b c)) (g2 (d e)) (a g1 g2) 18:33:55 i've a good code for anf transformation, but i cant figure out how to modify it.. 18:34:13 you mean, you want to do just one step of ANF transform? 18:35:23 no. 18:35:37 there should be sub-let expression 18:35:48 a more complicated expression would be: 18:36:47 (a (b (c d)) (e f))=> (let ((g1 (c d)) (g2 (e f) (let (g3 (b g1)) (a g3 g2) 18:38:22 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:30 and now you've introduced a `false dependency' between g2 and g3 18:39:49 why is that? 18:40:24 ok, you're right.. 18:40:28 hmm 18:41:32 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:41:38 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-5-164.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:41:39 p1dzkl, you could introduce branching quantifiers into the language... 18:41:48 bthornton [n=bthornto@nmd.sbx10981.littltx.wayport.net] has joined #scheme 18:41:52 if not, you'll always have such problems. 18:41:55 -!- bthornton [n=bthornto@nmd.sbx10981.littltx.wayport.net] has left #scheme 18:42:02 but its supposed to allow me to calculate variables in parallel 18:42:17 any way, any one of you have a clue on how to do this? 18:42:25 i will upload my code.. just a sec. 18:42:32 p[0]p: invest in branching quantifiers? IF logic? 18:43:00 but first of all, i want to implement this modified anf transformation.. 18:43:18 what is the address for the code upload? 18:44:49 paste.lisp.org ? 18:44:58 lisppaste: url 18:44:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 18:45:43 p(0)p pasted "anf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89851 18:48:40 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:53:00 rudybot annotated #89851 "simple list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89851#1 18:54:00 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 18:57:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b5c1f8c0cc287dd4] has joined #scheme 19:00:54 -!- Mr_Awesome_ [n=eric@c-98-212-135-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:11 any one?! 19:02:40 If you can formulate a more coherent question than `any one?!', then perhaps someone might help you to answer it. 19:05:36 ok, sorry 19:06:39 i've posted the code to: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89851 19:06:50 p[0]p: what is your question? How to make your nested let thingy? 19:06:57 yep 19:07:06 choas [n=lars@p5B0DC0C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:07 a macro I guess? 19:07:11 nope 19:07:26 dudrenov: I think this is "how to do homework problems". 19:07:43 this is, how do i modify the function question. 19:08:10 I usually use a text editor, but have been known to use a magnetized needle on my hard drive 19:09:21 lol, i'm unable to produce the desired result though 19:09:38 p[0]p: well it does not seem that complicated 19:10:23 i know. but yet again, any help would be appreciated.. 19:10:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@46-52-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:10:48 dudrenov, could you point me to some direction? 19:11:57 First try to solve your first case 19:12:26 which is? 19:12:46 which the simple case the rest will be just series a subproblems which end up with the simple case 19:12:57 (a (b c) (d e)) 19:13:46 mmm. ok.. 19:13:53 will give it a try.. 19:14:04 it's easy to ta the the car of that list and map the cdr with some unique symbols 19:14:49 take even 19:14:58 the problem is the sub expressions.. 19:15:08 solve the simple case first 19:15:18 the sub expressions will be easy then 19:15:30 i've already solved the simple case in many diffrent ways.. 19:15:34 think of it recursevly 19:15:56 look at the code i've pasted.. 19:16:05 so then write a recursive function that solve that 19:16:06 brb 19:16:20 is this your homework assigment 19:16:38 dudrenov, yep 19:16:43 and its not that simple 19:16:50 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:16:51 since i need to remember past replaced variables.. 19:18:54 Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 19:19:29 I would save the car, prethreat the cdr, extract the symbols from the prethreated arguments to the car and combine all of it in a list. Which almost the direction you are headed. 19:23:59 mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:24:28 Prethreat? Is that to threaten something preemptively? 19:26:25 Riastradh, would you mind taking a look? 19:26:27 *pretreat 19:27:54 p[0]p, why don't you begin by stating precisely what the problem is? For example, perhaps you can point us to the class web site where you found the problem set, or at least quote the description of the problem. 19:29:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:37 rcassidy [n=rcassidy@alpha.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:30:08 i already have a partially working code, which is pasted to:http://paste.lisp.org/display/89851 i need to modify it so instead of nested 'let it will return one 'let per clause level 19:32:34 Please be more precise about what the code does now, what is wrong with that, and what you want it to do. For example, you could give an example input, the output the code currently gives for that input, and then the output you want to see, with an explanation of how you got from the input to each output. 19:32:52 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:05 for the simple input (a (b c) (d e)) the code produces: (let ((g1 (b c)) (let ((g2 (d e)) (a g1 g2) 19:34:12 but i want it to be: 19:34:31 (let ((g1 (b c)) (g2 (d e)) (a g1 g2)) 19:35:39 a simple map of the cdr... 19:35:45 it makes absolutely no difference to the compiler 19:35:54 Currently, your code is oriented toward transforming one expression and wrapping what you do with a name for that expression in a LET. 19:36:00 wingo [n=wingo@88.Red-83-32-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:06 evening, schemers. 19:36:15 oops, I am mistaken 19:36:16 Wait, what? You're trying to generate an invalid LET statement? 19:36:38 Heya, wingo. 19:36:38 It sounds as though instead you need to separate the operation of wrapping what you do with your generated names, from the operation of generating names for expressions. 19:36:50 gnomon, why is that? 19:36:55 gnomon: I think he just misplaced a paran when typing 19:36:59 You missed a closing round bracket, p[0]p. 19:37:13 ohh, sorry. 19:37:34 2 of them 19:37:53 no wonder im getting confused ;9 19:38:26 Riastradh, its already seperated.. 19:38:41 because i'm renaming the generated once.. 19:39:33 No, p[0]p. NORMALIZE-NAME both generates a name (t) for the expression (N), and wraps what the recipient of the name (k) does with it in a LET. 19:40:40 By the way, what output do you want to see for (f (a (b)) (p (q)))? 19:40:40 ok, so how should i seperate them? 19:40:56 Is this really ANF, or is this the breadth-first evaluation of which you spoke the other day? 19:41:52 (let ((g1 (b)) (g2 (q))) (let ((g3 (a g1)) (g4 (p g2)) (f g3 g4)) 19:42:17 So this is not really ANF -- this is really the breadth-first evaluation you asked about earlier. 19:42:27 (You missed several closing round brackets again.) 19:42:35 (sorry again 19:42:35 ) 19:42:36 (Sorry, not several, just one.) 19:42:45 (...no, two.) 19:43:18 Riastradh, nm that, you are right, its the breadth-first.. but i figured to try and modify the ANF code for that porpuse.. 19:44:14 brb 19:44:16 The other day I suggested an approach to a recursive solution for the transformation you seek. Do you remember that? 19:44:38 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #scheme 19:47:10 Riastradh: ;Unbound variable: r/m 19:47:28 mejja, stack trace? 19:47:34 ...er, wait. 19:47:50 Did you re-sf the compiler? 19:47:58 (like the commit message told you to) 19:48:21 ... 19:49:06 I guess that's a `no'. 19:49:14 I guess so... 19:49:20 Look for `*** NOTE'. 19:49:26 (in `git log') 19:50:41 yay git. 19:50:47 heh 19:51:45 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-254.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:54:02 fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 19:57:07 SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:12:31 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:28 SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:03 SvekloB__ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:26:16 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:18 Riastradh, sure i remember, but i still believe i can change this code.. 20:26:47 -!- rcassidy [n=rcassidy@alpha.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 20:28:17 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:34:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:55 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:33 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has joined #scheme 20:41:20 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-134-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 20:43:09 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:45:45 m811 [n=user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 20:47:27 mejja, hey, you'll be pleased to know that there's been a bug in the i386 instruction syntaxer for probably fifteen or twenty years, due to writing #x80 rather than #x83 in a couple of places. 20:47:49 funny :) 20:47:51 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:47:59 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:01 Not funny. 20:48:05 *wingo* started poking sassy recently; seems nice, though a disassembler would be nice too. 20:48:42 Riastradh: btw, I can't stage away that r/m error :( 20:48:50 I have been boggling since yesterday over the bugs that this caused in the x86-64 back end when I made some unrelated changes to it. 20:48:57 *mejja* blames wingo. bastard! 20:49:25 my bad! 20:49:57 mejja, nuke *.com and *.bin (except the top-level make.com symlink) in compiler/. Enter compiler/. Run the incantation in the commit message. 20:50:44 -!- SvekloB__ is now known as SvekloB 20:53:56 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:53:57 Fortunately the bug doesn't affect anything in the i386 back end, because it never does byte-size arithmetic with esp, ebp, esi, or edi. (The bug causes the instruction syntaxer to generate arithmetic with ah, dh, ch, and bh for what the LAP thinks is arithmetic with esp, ebp, esi, and edi.) 20:57:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:03:14 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-5-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:17 masm [n=masm@bl5-105-90.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:05:35 SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 21:06:04 -!- Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 21:08:54 -!- SvekloB_ [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:20 -!- SvekloB [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:36 I'm going out on a limb here on recall of a paper or two I perused sometime back - there's a transformation that first fully allows for nested let expressions called, IIRC, "monadic normal form" and then a formulaic transformation form monadic normal form to ANF which does not allow for nested let expressions. Probably doesn't help much, but if you searcch for some of these terms on Citeseerx you may find the solution you're looking for somewhere therei 21:20:16 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:21:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:43 Riastradh: Nope. The system is fried. 21:23:08 mejja, please show me a transcript of fetching a fresh copy of the Git repository, resyntaxing the compiler from scratch, and then building. 21:25:07 For example: git clone ... && cd mit-scheme/src/compiler && && cd .. && ./Setup.sh && ./configure && make 21:25:23 (Do this with the last working x86-64 back end you have.) 21:28:47 That, or start from the 20090107 LIARC and build the x86-64 port afresh. 21:29:18 resyntaxing a fresh git clone doesn't make sense... 21:29:57 Yes it does. What's important is using the insmac.scm that's in the Git repository, rather than whatever one was loaded into the host compiler. 21:30:06 people who must bootstrap from their own compilers have my respect. 21:30:30 (The way it works is pretty stupid; what I wrote in the commit message is a cheap workaround for a problem that should be fixed at a different level.) 21:30:41 i'm so afraid of having to maintain such a thing that guile will probably always be bootstrappable from c. 21:32:06 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:16 sladegen [n=nemo@dynamic-78-8-243-222.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 21:39:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-166.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:57 La la la... 21:42:10 li li li 21:43:41 DUM de dum 21:44:13 wingo: "Bootstrappable from C" is not necessarily the same thing as "cleanly buildable". You could cross-compile from Scheme without introducing problematic bootstrapping dependencies. 21:45:17 In this case, MIT Scheme's package system is causing the same problem as Common Lisp's package system which SBCL solves by naming everything SB!foo and then destructively changing it to SB-foo partway through the build process. 21:45:34 ...rather than having an isolable database of packages in order to separate the host system from the target system. 21:45:45 (Fortunately, that's the only similarity between MIT Scheme's `packages' and Common Lisp's `packages'.) 21:45:54 chandler: then your compiler would have to be portable; that's ok if your name is will... 21:45:58 (Otherwise, they are totally unrelated.) 21:46:13 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:48:12 mejja, progress? 21:50:21 congress... 21:52:53 On further consideration, I guess the issue with the i386 back end isn't really a bug at all, except inasmuch as it is a bug in the !@#*%^(@&% design of the x86. 21:52:59 (Ha! `Design'.) 21:53:00 X-Scale` [i=email@89-180-189-41.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 21:54:06 Please make sense... 21:54:21 evolved from under R'Lyeh perhaps 21:54:25 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.189.41] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:54:28 -!- X-Scale` is now known as TR2N 21:56:52 You can't use rsp, rbp, rsi, or rdi with byte-size instructions. For example, you can't load just a byte from memory into them. 21:57:04 (esp, ebp, esi, or edi, if you're talking about x86-32) 21:57:22 -!- fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:54 ah 21:59:06 Formerly, rsi was not allocated as a general-purpose register, and instead was always a fixed pointer into a block of memory used by the compiler for various purposes. I wanted to free it up in order to use it to better match the AMD64 calling convention (in which it is the second argument register), so I allowed it to be allocated as a general-purpose register, and the assembler never complained, but the machine did something v 21:59:14 Is there a decent way of doing literate programming in scheme ? ";" scheme comments are *dead* elements. I want something that can be processed by other scheme programs. 21:59:22 ...and the compiler never complained, but the machine did something very different from what the compiler expected. 21:59:27 TR2N, yes: not to do it at all. 21:59:41 Why not, Riastradh ? 21:59:57 Because it means that your program is so unbelievably unclear that you had to rewrite it in English just to make sense of it. 22:00:09 Rewriting it in English is the wrong solution to the problem. 22:00:30 TR2N: there is scribble, and there are docstrings. those are the only solutions i have seen. 22:00:42 there are probably some home-grown systems too. 22:01:16 I understand that. But imagine you need a description of the main elements of your programs, the elements that an user will need to know without having to read all the source. *live comments* would be useful there as they could be processed to create documentation (like java does with javadoc). 22:01:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b5c1f8c0cc287dd4] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:39 You can always write a program to read just the comments. 22:01:43 TR2N: you can always process the source with some tool, written in scheme even 22:01:44 yes. 22:01:57 Or, you can write documentation outside the source code. 22:03:06 Code is an appropriate place to put the occasional note about how the implementation works. It is not an appropriate place to put comments about the use of the abstraction it is implementing; that serves only to distract both readers who want to know how to use it (by cluttering their documentation with the implementation itself) and readers who want to know how it works (by cluttering the implementation with documentation). 22:05:14 Yes, but in the end that's just an IDE problem. Any decent IDE will process the source to only show either the code, the docs, or a mix of both chosen by the user. 22:05:15 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:37 I just find it amazing that docs and code most of the times live in two different worlds. 22:06:20 I know, it just works. :) 22:06:32 Putting user-level documentation in the code is a great way to encourage hard-to-understand documentation. 22:06:35 What is an `IDE'? If I need to use Eclipse just to read the source code, thereby inhibiting me from looking at plain text in less or printing it out on a piece of paper, that's no good. 22:06:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c34d559f3f25ba07] has joined #scheme 22:07:26 To write good documentation you should first separate yourself from the code and implementation, and try to think how to best explain the system to someone who has no idea how it was implemented. 22:09:16 Java tries to do that documenting the interfaces. 22:09:19 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:10:07 I just see that scheme is so powerful to process itself that it's kind of a waste not using it to process its own code and generate several diferent prespectives of it, be it, code, docs, etc. 22:10:29 Java is the worst example of documentation I've ever seen. They have tools to automatcally produce huge volumes of docs for every package, class and method with no overall structure and universally poor quality to the individual descriptions. 22:11:45 foof: what is a better approach being used elsewhere ? 22:13:47 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #scheme 22:13:49 I want to *ask* code something like this: "hey, tell me what you want to do and how you manage to achieve it" 22:13:53 Write a separate manual. Even the ancient manpage format is superior - for each set of related functions, you have a synopsis, description, examples, and list of known bugs. 22:14:03 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:48 ... usually including notes, history and links to related functions. 22:16:12 I like that approach, yes. BSDs are a good example of it. 22:18:00 foof: did you just seriously suggest that manpages are good documentation? :P 22:18:27 Adamant: The format is good, and certainly more usable than javadoc. 22:18:39 foof: the format is OK :P 22:18:52 BSD manpages are much superior to GNU. GNU expects you to read info pages for more detailed documentation. 22:19:00 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@88.128.85.58] has quit [] 22:19:05 even BSD manpages aren't that great 22:19:32 texinfo >> troff 22:20:54 They're not great, but they're certainly worlds better than what one finds on GNU/Linux -- in most cases I've encountered, better than either the man or info pages one finds there. (There are exceptions, of course; GNU Emacs's documentation, for instance, half in info format and half in on-line documentation, is generally excellent. 22:24:35 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:25:59 wingo, bite your tongue! troff is awesome. 22:26:07 Or, er, bite your... uh... fingers? 22:26:10 Despite Emacs being the horrible mess that it is. 22:27:37 ) 22:28:24 Can texinfo even format equations? 22:30:44 only by escaping to tex 22:30:56 you can provide alternatives tho 22:34:04 dudrenov` [n=user@adsl-99-147-43-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:40 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:28 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DC0C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:38:35 beware of old versions in /usr/local/bin. 22:38:51 -!- dudrenov [n=user@adsl-99-147-43-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:04 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:39:13 mejja: all working now? 22:39:47 Of course! I'm a pro... 22:50:46 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:55:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:01:33 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:12:41 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:14:00 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-251.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 23:16:26 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@91-89.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:42 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:43 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:21:29 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:24:53 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:45 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:20 TSPL3/4 defines VECTOR-MAP as taking a 1-argument function, while SRFI-43 defines it to take 2 (index and argument). Is it possible to define a SRFI-43 style vector-map that uses the native implementation's TSPL3/4 style vector-map? Or rather, can I replace a symbol's meaning - except in the context of where the replacement meaning is defined? 23:33:17 I apologize for the poor wording. 23:33:29 I understood everything but the last sentence. 23:33:54 You can always write: (define vector-map (let ((original-vector-map vector-map)) (lambda ... something that uses the original VECTOR-MAP procedure, by calling it ORIGINAL-VECTOR-MAP ...))) 23:34:39 Ah.... 23:34:54 But I don't think that has much to do with what you were asking. 23:37:38 I'm not really sure... I'll play with that now. 23:41:12 dmoerner [n=dmr@91-89.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 23:45:59 -!- gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has quit [] 23:47:17 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c34d559f3f25ba07] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:54 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:50:37 Using that approach, when I invoke my newly defined vector-map, it seems to recurse indefinitely. 23:50:59 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:37 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 23:52:35 When is original-vector-map bound? 23:54:40 Are you running this at the top level, or in an internal scope? 23:54:50 If at the top level, the definition has the same effect as an assignment. 23:54:57 top level 23:55:12 If in an internal scope, it is an error, because the reference to VECTOR-MAP occurred before the variable had a value. 23:55:16 In that case, your implementation is broken. 23:55:18 What implementation is it? 23:55:26 Petite Chez 23:55:29 You could try substituting SET! for DEFINE. 23:57:20 Maybe I don't fully understand you. Anyway, the set! raises "Exception: attempt to assign immutable variable vector-map [...]" 23:58:26 ecyrb pasted "vector-map" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89860 23:59:39 No, you need to put the LET outside the LAMBDA. 23:59:41 That's the set! version - if you replace the set! with the define it recurs on the new definition.