00:03:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:03:45 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-117.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:59 hellyeah [n=benebiog@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 00:05:01 hey 00:05:10 can i ask a question about ambigious 00:11:07 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-241-241.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:45 -!- X[z]X [n=none@94.230.83.96] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:57 X[z]X [n=none@94.230.83.96] has joined #scheme 00:14:29 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:06 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@67.162.157.218] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:16:42 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:41 towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:20:22 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 00:24:36 charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:52 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 00:43:21 -!- towodo [n=anonymou@209-6-213-168.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:44:20 *offby1* watches the tumbleweeds skitter down Main St 00:44:37 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@91-89.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:45:07 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:20 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:48:31 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:37 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:54:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:59:15 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:53 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 01:17:35 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:52 -!- lvh [n=lvh@83.101.76.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:05 -!- EwS [n=ews@76.102.249.234] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:19:18 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:45 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-170-244.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:52 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DAD22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:21:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:23:53 dmoerner_ [n=dmr@91-107.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 01:25:35 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 01:29:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:30:31 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:31:07 -!- eno [n=eno@70.137.171.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:07 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 01:35:22 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:52 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:53:05 incubot: Riastradh is such a kidder, will he ever grow up? 01:53:09 Yes, that Paul...such a kidder. 01:53:50 wtfip? 01:53:54 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:12 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:02:00 -!- wingo [n=wingo@94.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:07:46 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:48 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:20:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:42:01 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-241-241.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:04 *Riastradh* blinks. 03:01:32 stroan [i=stroan@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #scheme 03:01:53 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 03:02:24 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:45 -!- nickgibbon [n=nring@210.8.201.244] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:16 foof: ping 03:21:34 pong 03:21:58 Poing! 03:22:00 Such coinkydinks. First we both work on Chibi at the same time, then we're on #scheme at the same time. 03:22:02 Kapwing! 03:22:14 Cupoong! 03:22:20 Krakow! Krakow! Krakow! Three direct hits! 03:22:34 *jcowan* turns Riastradh into the Krakow monster. 03:23:02 *Riastradh* turns the transmogrifier gun on jcowan and transmogrifies him into an upside-down duck with fanged tentacles. 03:23:16 a shiny, almost polished (ahem) monster 03:23:33 sorry, that was very lame 03:23:42 *copumpkin* retreats back into the shadows 03:24:03 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:24:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-9.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:33 *Monstrum hic Cracoviae* 03:25:52 foof: shall I send you my changes (details in email) to merge in? 03:27:14 sure 03:27:57 I wasn't too sure if you'd want such a large init.scm, but I can't see any delay in response time. 03:29:01 s/response/startup 03:29:35 Depending on the changes I may try to minimize them or factor them out into a library. 03:32:38 See your email. 03:34:46 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:36:45 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:49 http://www.strangescience.net/pics/kramons.jpg <-- What Riastradh looks like now. 03:37:34 OK, no way is most of that going into init.scm now that there's a module system :) 03:37:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:37:43 Did you mean to attach a file? 03:38:04 No. I tried doing hg push, but nothing happens. 03:38:10 I guess I don't have Authority er sumpn. 03:38:11 *snif* 03:38:47 -!- xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:59 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 03:39:16 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-241-241.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:22 I want to review any patches before pushing them. 03:39:27 Fair enough. 03:39:31 I'll send you diffs then. 03:40:02 jcowan: oh my! 03:42:40 What is it, copumpkin? 03:42:48 Maybe someone can help me find a picture of what jcowan looks like now? I'm a little busy. 03:42:51 that picture of Riastradh 03:43:14 (Upside-down duck with fanged tentacles, in case you missed it.) 03:43:36 Right. 03:44:26 I've gotten run, back in an hour or two. 03:45:17 Riastradh: http://upsidedownduck.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cropped-dc-trip-10508-120.jpg is the best I can do at present. The tentacles are under the water. 03:45:19 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yzks68j 03:46:15 maybe http://i.imgur.com/r4e2C.jpg ? 03:46:43 (caution, might be rather disturbing) 03:48:16 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-31-40.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:49:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:52:24 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:52:35 tjaway [n=timj@e176216208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:55:40 jpiche [n=jpiche@c-75-73-4-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:55:59 -!- jpiche [n=jpiche@c-75-73-4-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:58:09 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:01:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:09:13 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176220088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:56 -!- 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bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:42:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:43:04 This is *almost* jcowan: http://boingboing.net/images/duck_dick.jpg 05:43:34 (safe for work, as far as I can say) 05:44:57 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:17 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:50:38 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:50:42 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:10 -!- X[z]X [n=none@94.230.83.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:27 X[z]X [n=none@94.230.83.96] has joined #scheme 05:55:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:57:10 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-217.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:58:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 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quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:27:00 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 06:28:21 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:35:02 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 06:50:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 07:00:15 Guest31692 [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:10:13 saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:10:13 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:35 (import (prefix top: top^)) ==> define-unit: bad import-spec keyword in: prefix 07:10:47 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:16:13 oh, it's because a module had provided "prefix" as a symbol 07:19:43 -!- Guest31692 [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:32 -!- dmoerner_ [n=dmr@91-107.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:37:41 dmoerner [n=dmr@91-107.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 08:02:47 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:10:50 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:20:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:26 -!- gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:38:36 sbt [n=sbt@234.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 08:40:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.117.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:49 what is the difference between (let ((foo 10)) ... ) and (define foo 10)? 08:48:47 let binds a variable inside a body 08:51:30 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #scheme 08:53:05 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:02:17 sbt: (let ((foo 10)) ... foo-is-defined-only-here) 09:02:34 (define foo 10), foo is defined on current top-level 09:04:25 right, but what about (define (bar) (define foo 10) (fun foo)) and (define (bar) (let ((foo 10)) (fun foo))) is there a difference? 09:06:18 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 09:10:00 in general, no 09:13:38 ok 09:15:04 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 09:15:49 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:18:41 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:59 Anyone awake who knows how to build mit-scheme? 09:19:35 I grabbed the latest tarball, and tried ./Setup.sh && ./configure but it complains about missing Makefile.in's. 09:20:37 ejs [n=eugen@213-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:24:30 autoreconf? 09:25:06 sbt: let is the preferred style in most cases, unless you need recursive usage, then define/letrec/named let is better 09:25:32 ok 09:26:30 let is anyways shorter to type than define, and will expand to much simpler code than define 09:27:05 sbt: nope, didn't work :/ 09:27:50 isnt configure suppose to make makefiles from makefile.in ? 09:28:27 Yes, and automake makes Makefile.in from Makefile.am, but neither of those exist. 09:28:37 well i guess it cant if the files are not there :) 09:28:49 foof: that's sad :( 09:28:59 there's just a bunch of files called "Makefile-fragment" 09:29:19 maybe it was packaged wrong? 09:29:45 I imagine so, I've built it before without problems. 09:31:22 can't build it either 09:32:33 *foof* grabs the latest from git 09:33:19 That snapshot was from 10 months ago - you'd figure if it were impossible to build from it they'd either remove it or make a new snapshot... 09:34:32 No luck with that either. 09:34:35 Oh well. 09:34:40 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-217.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:36:56 -!- pookey [n=pookey@symfony/developer/pookey] has left #scheme 09:38:20 -!- poet 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jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 14:56:10 -!- samth [n=samth@129.10.112.208] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:58:56 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 14:59:37 scheme-complete.el 0.8.9 now available with support for indented module forms 15:03:24 arnor [n=arnor@p4FFF3505.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:38 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:10:23 hi 15:12:46 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:17:58 foof, do you have an existing MIT Scheme installation? If not, then Setup.sh will fail (although it's not very good about stopping when it fails, like most shell scripts), and then the rest of it will fail too. 15:18:10 nope 15:19:07 Oh, wait: the latest tarball? Do you mean the 20090107 or so source snapshot? If so, then you don't need to run Setup.sh. 15:20:13 (You still need an existing MIT Scheme installation, though, if you want to build it.) 15:20:42 if ! type mit-scheme; then echo "You need a working mit-scheme to bootstrap."; exit; fi 15:21:04 20090107 15:21:21 Why did you run Setup.sh, then? 15:22:58 (I'd like to know if any of the documentation is unclear -- I do know that some of the README.txt is out of date, since it still refers to CVS rather than to Git, although that makes sense for the 20090107 snapshot.) 15:23:23 Because just make failed (both from top-level and from src). And then just ./configure && make failed. Setup.sh was the last thing I tried. 15:24:20 Oh, so you didn't read the README or the installation instructions at ? 15:25:08 I did read the README.txt. 15:26:02 Was it not clear what state the tarball you downloaded was in? 15:26:39 albacker [n=eni@ASt-Lambert-153-1-108-215.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:27:02 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:40 Oh wait, I only skimmed the README.txt enough to see the steps from ./Setup.sh to make install, indented and thus standing out more than anything. 15:28:10 (although now that you mention it, no I don't understand which category the tarball falls under) 15:30:28 It's reasonable for a native compiler to be hairy to bootstrap (I'd hope for easier steps, but no one else makes it easy). 15:30:37 Can you identify what's confusing about the description of the states? 15:30:38 (at least you beat ghc!) 15:31:07 Well, first I assume CVS == git now? 15:31:40 There are two problems here: 1. The build system uses Scheme to set up some hairy makefiles (because automake sucks). 2. Compiling Scheme requires Scheme. 15:31:55 Yes, but for the 20090107 snapshot it still means CVS; we didn't switch to Git until some time around March or April. 15:32:16 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-115-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:32:59 "snapshots" in other projects can be in any og state CVS, distribution or configured 15:33:17 If it's configured or not, running ./configure should always be safe. 15:33:26 `Snapshot' here just means that it has a date rather than a version number. 15:33:52 I would hope the same applies to ./Setup.sh && ./configure 15:35:00 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 15:35:23 ... and it's very easy to report an error when mit-scheme is required but not installed. 15:35:30 Yes, that should be fixed. 15:35:39 Anyway, I'll actually read the directions properly this time :) 15:36:12 I was just being lazy and spoiled by all the projects that can be compiled without even doing that much. 15:37:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:17 I don't think you have to do anything more than most other projects. Most projects have some `autogen.sh' or something that corresponds with Setup.sh; the only difference is that autogen.sh requires some random set of bogus GNU tools (e.g., automake), whereas Setup.sh requires Scheme. 15:38:06 But what they distribute to the world includes the output of autogen.sh or whatever it is, so that configure and make build everything. 15:45:12 (and this is the same as what MIT Scheme does) 15:51:34 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:00:43 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:08 -!- arnor [n=arnor@p4FFF3505.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:34 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:08:30 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:12:09 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:16:31 edwardk__ [n=edwardk@32.138.38.9] has joined #scheme 16:20:35 -!- edwardk__ [n=edwardk@32.138.38.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:49 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["bye"] 16:27:52 nartamonov [n=nartamon@95-24-191-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:28:39 -!- nartamonov is now known as Kolyan 16:30:29 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:31:57 P [n=none@94.230.83.96] has joined #scheme 16:32:18

hi, any one mind helping me with a problem i'm having? 16:32:22 -!- P is now known as Guest33555 16:32:46 -!- Guest33555 is now known as p[0]p 16:32:49 depends what it is 16:32:54 If you'll describe it, and paste any relevant code to , perhaps. 16:36:11 let me first describe the problem 16:36:31 my input is some list, lets say (a (b c) (d (e f) (g h))) 16:36:59 i need to transfer it to appropriat list in the following format: 16:37:59 (let ((g1 (g h)) (g2 (e f)) (g4 (b c))) (let ((g3 (d g1 g2))) (a g4 g3) 16:38:33 is it clear enough or should i elaborate? 16:39:11 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:30 ok you described the problem, what is the problem what you are having? 16:40:59 i've managed to traverse the input list(will upload code in a sec) in the correct order, the problem is that first i get g1 for (g h) and then g2 for (e f) but then, i need to remember those for the d g1 g2 let 16:42:53 I think the correct solution here is match :P 16:43:28 no Elly, not even 16:43:32 Yikes. No, it isn't. 16:43:44 you mean match and replace? 16:43:44 As in, light one and set the problem ablaze? 16:44:31 p[0]p: He means an incredibly overcomplicated pattern-matching macro that is a universal solution (or is that solvent?) in some people's toolboxes. 16:44:32 so the exercise is to traverse lists and adding the result to a list? 16:44:36 i think this is called ANF transformation, wikipedia should describe it 16:45:02 ANF? 16:45:07 forget that 16:45:08 just a sec.. 16:45:18 i dont it is more than a depth first transform 16:45:23 maybe a macro? 16:45:45 Macro?? 16:45:50 no no. 16:45:53 leppie: depth first it seems, but we do not have the whole homework instructions 16:46:32 i also figured its depth first, but the problem is that its not ordinary depth first 16:46:46 since the return of the recursion should be remembered.. 16:46:51 Riastradh: maybe use a macro for the transformation 16:47:12 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:13 p[0]p: how do you do that usually? 16:47:14 How can that help, if this is supposed to be done at runtime? 16:47:29 That makes no sense at all, leppie. A macro is something that *uses* the transformation procedure, but he's trying to write the transformation procedure in the first place. 16:47:50 ah gotta go 16:48:25 p[0]p, can you be a little more precise about the transformation that you are trying to implement? For example, if this is a problem set for a class, can we see the description of the problem that you were given? 16:48:49 p[0]p pasted "transformation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89686 16:49:11 yep, just a sec. 16:49:26 What I can glean from the single example you have given is a very strange transformation whose purpose appears to be to linearize the evaluation order of expressions, by interleaving them in a sort of breadth-first way (which is not at all how Scheme evaluates expressions, incidentally). 16:50:20 something like that 16:50:37 the idea is to let it compute the parameters in parallel 16:50:38 masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:50:53 thats the idea behind the "let" 16:51:55 p[0]p annotated #89686 "description." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89686#1 16:52:15 i'v posted the full assignment description.. 16:54:10 Riastradh, have any helpful tips? 16:55:56 start witha simple case like (a (b) (c)) 16:56:26 i cant figure out how to remember and replace the values returned to me.. 16:56:28 Start by pulling out the first-level subexpressions of a combination and replacing them by newly generated names. 16:56:36 since recursion sees the list as in the previous state.. 16:56:51 so i should use set-car!? 16:56:57 No, don't use SET-CAR! or any mutation. 16:57:05 so how do i replace it? 16:57:16 you mean generate the replaced list? 16:57:24 probably, map 16:57:31 Create three lists: 1. The list of generated names. 2. The list of compound subexpressions corresponding with them. 3. The new combination, wiht the compound subexpressions replaced by generated names. 16:57:37 With, even. 16:57:53 damn.. 16:58:22 thats makes up for a huge function.. 16:58:28 *adds 16:59:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 17:00:45 isnt the a more efficiant way? 17:01:49 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.30.96] has joined #scheme 17:03:35 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:05:01 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:06:04 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:43 Riastradh, isnt this over complicating things? 17:14:52 cant i generate the 1,2 list in one list? 17:15:20 r2q2 [n=user@acad237186.eastdorm.uic.edu] has joined #scheme 17:21:48 Riastradh, your solution doesnt solve me the problem of how do i finally order them in the correct order.. 17:23:31 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:54 incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:24:55 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:07 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:25:40 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 17:29:33 -!- gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has quit [] 17:31:00 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:31:59 what does the [ syntext mean? 17:32:47 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.30.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:40 gpaci [n=gpaci@gpaci-02.dsllan.toad.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:49 the same as ( 17:34:07 so its only for better readability? 17:34:31 yes, and even that is disputed 17:34:52 hehe, ok. thanks 17:37:03 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:08 masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:41:36 -!- lvh [n=lvh@83.101.76.33] has quit ["&"] 17:47:58 ecyrb [i=bamoore@freeshell.org] has joined #scheme 17:49:24 From TSP3: "The bodies of many syntactic forms, including lambda, let, let*, and letrec, as well as the result clauses of cond, case, and do, are treated as if there were inside an implcit begin;..." 17:50:52 That's a little inaccurate. It would be more accurate to say that LAMBDA, LET, LET*, and LETREC admit bodies of definitions and expression sequences, and that COND, CASE, and DO admit bodies of expression sequences; and separately that BEGIN splices definition sequences into definition sequences and expression sequences into expression sequences. 17:50:52 I seem to be allowed to place define statements anywhere inside a begin block though... and only at the top in the bodies of those other forms. 17:51:22 ...and that at the top level, BEGIN splices mixed definition and expression sequences into the top-level forms. 17:53:26 So is the top-level the only place that you can mix the order of defines and expressions? 17:54:36 In the R5RS, yes. 17:56:47 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 17:57:24 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:58:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8172dc630ff4db80] has joined #scheme 18:07:58 So: There's no standard module system. There's no way to implement a cross-platform module system that sits on-top of implementation specific module systems either. Correct? 18:08:20 There's also no way to determine if you have a top-level name clash in a file you're trying to load, right? 18:09:42 Your second statement is not correct, unless you meant to impose additional constraints 18:09:45 . 18:11:24 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #scheme 18:14:39 Of course. I was thinking that it would be nice to be able to write a module system using standard scheme, which I don't believe is possible. 18:14:57 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 18:16:16 (Without some sort of code inspection / analysis) 18:16:53 That depends on your definition of `module system'. For many definitions of module system, that is true -- because the object of a module system is to communicate information to the meta-program about the object-program, outside of the object-program, so implementing it in the object-program is nonsensical. 18:18:09 -!- r2q2 [n=user@acad237186.eastdorm.uic.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:17 That's a good way to express the problem. 18:19:21 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:59 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:23:36 It probably wouldn't too hard to write something that transforms a source file designed for top-level inclusion to something syntactically valid in the body of a LET expression, so that you could write a generic module system. 18:25:54 Hmm, I'm not sure about the rules for macro placement though... 18:28:36 flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A2ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:29:19 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:02 Move syntax extensions to the top of the file, pre-define all other symbols, and change other occurrences of DEFINE to SET! Any major stumbling blocks I'm missing? 18:41:01 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:00 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 18:53:59 jao [n=jao@80.31.223.187] has joined #scheme 18:58:20 Yes: macros aren't local to files. 18:59:24 Macros can expand to definitions. 18:59:59 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:00:09 Processing the source code is not the right way to go about making a `portable' module system; it's no good if I can't take your module in Scheme48 and use it as if it were a Scheme48 structure, or start up MzScheme and require your module like a MzScheme module. 19:05:45 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:29 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:08:00 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:10:41 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:56 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:26:08 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:26:53 -!- flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A2ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:11 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #scheme 19:27:51 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:28:01 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:35 Is there an example of a library that works with more than 1 implementation specific module system? 19:28:38 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:12 ecyrb: I don't know if this counts, but I was able to import Prometheus into a Chicken egg as-is 19:30:43 That's because there's a scheme48-modules egg which can read a subset of the scheme48 package definition language and translate it to a Chicken module declaration 19:32:11 wingo [n=wingo@94.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:44:00 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:44:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 19:45:29 sjamaan: Thanks for the info. 19:47:39 Lis [n=Lis@p5B206364.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:47:44 hi all 19:47:56 ecyrb: there is R6RS libraries :) 19:47:58 ecyrb, here is an example of a Scheme library that runs in multiple Scheme systems using their respective native module systems: . 19:49:38 What type of project would be good in scheme? Do you have a standart site explaining for what scheme could be used better than any other language? I research to decide weather to learn scheme or haskell. I just finished a small haskell tutorial and the language looks pretty awesome. I also read the plt tutorials first 5 chapters. But somehow its unclear what the positive sideeffects of scheme are. 19:50:20 This library has a relatively complicated organization; encoding this organization into R6RS libraries is non-trivial, incidentally. 19:50:21 I mean is it good for data processing? Fast file processing?!? 19:50:56 Riastradh: did arcfide ever make scheme-cml work under R6RS? 19:51:01 Lis: It's good for anything, more or less. So is Haskell. Comparing where each language is not so good is probably more interesting. 19:51:10 But that would probably be much more controversial as well. 19:51:55 leppie, in the R6RS? No, of course not. Under Chez, yes -- although the organization of the R6RS libraries he wrote was wrong. 19:52:23 chandler: At least it would be a good focal point for further development of scheme implementations and possibly the standard 19:52:24 ah ok 19:52:46 I need a interpreted language for processing big datafiles. I implemented a csv parser and stuff in c++ but somehow I wan't to learn another langauage. So, for what purpose would you not recommend scheme? 19:53:21 Lis: scheme is not usually interpreted. 19:53:29 depending on your definition of course. 19:53:45 and no one here will say "don't use scheme" :) 19:54:01 wingo: You just did ;) 19:54:02 well at least I can do some sort of "type and run"... 19:54:06 hehe 19:54:21 so you prefer scheme over haskell... but why? 19:54:26 just a small answer is enought 19:54:27 i don't know haskell :) 19:54:31 mh 19:54:36 ok that doesnt help :D 19:54:53 but maybe I do find something on the net, thanks 19:55:17 only searching for 2 weeks... there has to be something 19:55:33 Lis: It's also a matter of taste. Some people swear by static typing while others prefer dynamic typing 19:56:17 yes for calculations static typing is better thought. Therefore I wan't to switch from c... 19:56:26 "want" :) 19:56:41 :) 19:57:55 linas: if you want static typing, go with haskell. 19:58:03 er 19:58:08 Lis :) 19:58:18 *wingo* pretty sure linas doesn't want static typing :) 19:59:05 The gambit-*, mit-*, and s48-* files in scheme-cml add up to more bytes than all of the other files. 19:59:13 heh 19:59:17 did I mixed dynamic with static again? 19:59:58 no I didn't 20:01:46 ah scheme is not static typed 20:02:40 voila. 20:06:33 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 20:06:56 ecyrb, that's because there's a lot more to them than just module descriptions. 20:07:50 \me is planning on learning haskell someday, wingo 20:08:17 linas: yeah, me too. not this year tho! 20:08:28 ecyrb, some of the code is not really appropriate in there. For example, s48-optimistic-queue.scm is in that repository only to work around bugs in Scheme48. 20:08:38 rmrfchik_ [n=rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has joined #scheme 20:09:04 -!- rmrfchik [n=rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:09:18 one of the things that makes scheme hard to read is that the type is often/usually not clear 20:09:27 ecyrb, gambit-syntax.scm is also there only to work around a bug in Gambit. 20:09:58 i.e. many/most routines expect, de-facto, some type or range of types for their input. 20:10:37 but in scheme, it can be hard to figure out what that type should be, 20:11:14 making it hard to modify existing code, fix bugs in other people's code, or do other large-scale "refactoring" of existing code. 20:11:43 that's often the flip side of having flexible data structures like alists 20:11:57 though i would often prefer functional hash tables or the like. 20:12:05 still the typing problems are there too. 20:12:11 Sometimes, writing in scheme makes me feel like I'm writing in assembly 20:12:23 Riastradh: Still seems like a fair amount of work to develop portable code. 20:12:33 Riastradh: Thank you for the example though. 20:12:53 ecyrb, really, writing the portable code was easy, particularly when using Scheme48. 20:13:23 in that, when writing assembly, you have to keep in mind what values are in which registers, because there are very few hints in the code as to what goes where. 20:13:35 That is, it is not much harder to write the code portably than it is to write the code in the first place. 20:14:05 The hard part of porting scheme-cml was simply making it work on multiple different models of concurrent synchronization. 20:14:57 And although cosmetic differences between Scheme systems required a little extra work, most of the work would have been necessary anyway in order to support multiple different models of concurrent synchronization. 20:15:43 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:18 to write scheme effectively, you have to be very good at keeping a mental model in your head of the data structures you are working with, and I think this is the #1 primary reason why most programmers perceive lisp/scheme as being "hard" 20:17:42 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:44 To write *any* programs efficiently you must be good at keeping mental models in your head of the data structures you are working with, linas. 20:17:44 Is that a fact? 20:18:35 linas did say effectively and not efficiently, though the point stands either way 20:18:56 yes, but some languages are more demanding than others. Assembly is clearly harder than C, no matter how good you get at it. 20:19:13 linas: I don't see how Scheme is any harder than say, C, in that regard. 20:20:05 well, C function declarations are very clear about the types that they expect. So its easier to "skim"/spped-read 20:20:15 not exactly 20:20:28 once you hit pointers things are a bit wobbly 20:20:58 if you have void * pointers, yes, but most sane people use pointers to structs 20:21:23 the problem is there is a lot of insane C code out there, then :P 20:21:28 and with reasonably-well-named structs, a quick glance at thier contents gives you a pretty good idea of what that struct is for. 20:21:52 that's what makes OO rpgramming so popular-- you can "skim" effectively 20:22:07 Perhaps if linas came to a specific point, there would be a substantial basis for discussion. 20:22:19 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-191-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:22:21 don't be cranky, Riastradh :P 20:22:30 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057546.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:47 but yeah, more specifics would be nice 20:23:00 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:23:38 linas: I always get distracted by all the boilerplate in Java. And in Ruby or Javascript, you don't have type declarations 20:24:24 So I'd argue the opposite; dynamic languages only express that what is necessary to perform the operations you need to perform, without the yak shaving 20:24:32 There is *wayyy too much* boilerpalte in java. 20:25:05 Perl is dynamically typed, but somehow seems less intimidating. 20:25:18 I don't really see that 20:25:27 but it could just be me 20:25:37 I haven't programmed enough Perl to tell ;) 20:25:37 Perl is more annoying to understand than Scheme to me 20:25:52 I guess it all boils down to taste again 20:25:56 yeah 20:26:02 ie Perl hackers are tasteless 20:26:07 *sjamaan* glances around nervously 20:26:08 Perl is also statically typed. There are four static types, if I recall correctly: scalars, arrays, hash tables, and functions. 20:26:37 hm, that should be "perl hackers have no taste" or "perl is tasteless" 20:26:47 I think there is auto typecasting between some of those 20:26:56 I dunno. Maybe if I was extremely self-controlled, and always wrote my scheme code in a rigorous OO style, I would be less confused about which routines expected what types. But I'm not so rigorous, and I don't think others are either 20:27:00 Adamant: I bet it's configurable, too! 20:27:16 sjamaan: well they love their Latin :P 20:27:19 linas: What's with the OO fixation? 20:27:26 :) 20:27:28 perl is tasteless yes. 20:27:54 the OO fixation is as explained above: it allows one to skim over code easily 20:27:55 oo is a way to manage many people on one project. perhaps that's linas' situation :) 20:28:22 linas: I don't see why that's true, but I guess that's just me 20:28:48 If you've got a gazzillion lines of code, its nice to review the API's, and punt on the implementation details. 20:29:13 in scheme, its often hard to tell what the API is. 20:29:40 you have to actually read the implementation to understand what a function expects, what it does. 20:29:43 That's what modules are for 20:29:45 You can say the same of any language, linas. 20:30:21 Do you have a specific problem that you're trying to solve, linas? Something whose solution you're having a hard time expressing, perhaps in one language but not another? 20:30:44 What's more, that's a criticism of the code in question, not of the language, nor of the implementation, nor of the language style. 20:31:00 yes, but in scheme, in my experience, the difficulty of understanding existing code seems greater, and I suspect that has something to do with a lack of human-perceivable hints about data types. 20:31:20 Anyone can find lots of general remarks about this or that programming language, or this or that paradigm of programming, or this or that this or that, without ever actually solving a real problem. 20:31:50 Riastradh, that sounds like a real problem. 20:32:05 emma, I wonder how we could try to solve that problem! 20:32:23 look, I've been programming for 35 years in a dozen or more languages, and a broad range of systems. I've written a fair amount of scheme code, and yes, I'm speaking in generalities 20:32:27 Well, let me first make some general remarks about this and that. 20:32:29 Maybe we need a "Your criticism of Scheme..." checklist. 20:32:46 gnomon, ahh you are working toward the solution. 20:33:13 ok, let's not all get group mentality here 20:33:49 I'm learning scheme as my first language really. I'm doing two problems in SICP everyday 20:34:09 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:20 With Scheme to understand other people's code you kind of have to be the interpreter in your own brain. Which can be some work. Maybe that's not true of other languages, I don't know. 20:34:42 emma, prior art: http://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt , http://www.feep.net/~roth/geek-humor/net/flame-form , http://kk.org/ct2/2008/09/heinleins-fan-mail-solution.php 20:35:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:14 But there are ; tags which let you put in comments. Those could be used to fix anything like this. Right? 20:36:32 SICP is great, its a real eye-opener, esp the later chapters, esp when you know a few other languages .. it really provides fresh insight into quotidian things 20:37:21 linas, unfortunately i don't know any other languages. So hopefully it will still be insightful and informative when I do learn other languages. 20:39:17 even if i learn them after having worked through the book. 20:39:35 I suggest that after learning a few other languages, and coding in them for a few years, go back and re-read SICP. That's when the scales fall away from your eyes. 20:39:51 I believe that. 20:47:20 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:56:53 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 21:00:02 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:22 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-193-151.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:39 masm [n=masm@bl7-200-195.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:10:03 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-2e38a2beb180903a] has joined #scheme 21:11:41 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:14:16 dmoerner [n=dmr@91-107.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 21:17:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:24 -!- p[0]p [n=none@94.230.83.96] has quit [] 21:31:55 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 21:38:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:40 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:46:16 samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:50:27 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:02:27 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:07:08 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-1-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:29 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 22:22:26 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:22:28 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 22:25:23 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 22:34:48 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-2e38a2beb180903a] has quit [] 22:38:58 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:09 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:43:28 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:43:35 is (#e123#e456#e789) a valid representation for (123 456 789)? r6rs says that # is a delimiter, so i think yes. but that looks very strange for me 22:44:55 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@91-107.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:47 ypsilon says yes. mzscheme, guile, scheme48 say no 22:48:13 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:49:08 In the R5RS, # in a number literal means an unspecified digit. 22:53:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:47 neilv2 [n=user@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:05:35 -!- Lis [n=Lis@p5B206364.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:04 -!- neilv2 [n=user@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:32 neilv2 [n=user@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:10:28 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:59 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:15:05 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-115-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:06 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:19:43 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:26:41 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:26 Are there any scheme implementations that support OS threads other then MZ scheme? 23:31:01 v 23:31:10 MzScheme hasn't supported OS threads in a good six years or so, as far as I know. 23:31:15 er guile at least. 23:31:17 why do you want native threads? 23:31:54 if you want a bajillion threads, take a look at gambit 23:32:04 I have a computation heavy problem that needs to take advantage of multiple CPUs 23:32:33 Arelius: you could still use multiple processes 23:33:08 Yeah, I need to be able to support shared memory of some sort 23:33:09 There are no extant Scheme systems to my knowledge that effectively enable parallelization. There were some fifteen years ago, but not today. 23:33:35 i saw some recent reference to chez supporting native threads 23:33:46 (unless the problem is very fain-grained, then thread *might* be faster) 23:34:02 rotty: Huh? 23:34:52 Arelius: the thread-creation and scheduling overhead might be smaller as for processes 23:35:11 http://www.scheme.com/csug8/threads.html#./threads:h0 23:35:19 chez says it's built atop pthreads 23:38:55 rotty: It's not an overhead thing 23:39:11 rotty: It's a memory access thing 23:39:14 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/events/wand-symposium/talks/mitchfest-09-dybvig.pdf 23:39:35 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:52 neilv2: Any idea if petite chez has native threads? 23:40:10 no. chez is one of the few schemes i've never used 23:40:50 generally, it's silly to use closed-source, especially for research, when there's so much open source 23:41:18 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057546.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:25 if you break a problem into three parts and each part is solved by a different procedure, and you define those three procedures, isn't scheme doing all three at the same time? Isn't that what parallel means? 23:42:00 emma: Why would it do all three at the same time? 23:42:14 why wouldn't it? 23:42:16 What makes those three parts parallel? 23:42:33 (foo (a) (b) (c)) 23:42:37 emma: Because you can't assume that any three procedures aren't exclusive 23:42:44 i thought it got to work on all definitions all at once. How else could it use defintions at the top of the page that aren't defined until the bottom of the page? 23:42:53 if those were all procedures, a, b, and c could be executed in parallel 23:43:21 emma: Hopefully you've defined them before you actually use them 23:43:34 Arelius, no you don't have to do that. 23:43:49 you can use definitions in a procedure and then lower on the page define it. 23:43:56 (define (x) (y)) (x) (define (y) (+ 1 2)) doesn't work on my compiler 23:44:59 let me see if it does on mine 23:45:04 Thanks 23:47:40 Arelius, that doesn't work in DrScheme either. 23:47:55 Arelius, I think that's kind of stupid. Why not just look at every definition all at once? 23:48:20 reading down a page is a human weakness. 23:49:06 because humans can only keep track of about 50 objects in a scene, and computers can only do about twice that, so if your program had 101 top-level definitions, it would blow up 23:49:41 okay but besides that. that's a little different than what I had in mind anyway. 23:49:46 emma: (define y #f) (set! y 1) (set! y 2) 23:50:02 emma: if we execute every statement in parallel what is the value of y? 23:50:14 Say you have defined (a) and (b) and (c) then you should be able to do at the end (+ (a) (b) (c)) and have those three running all at once to get the answer. Surely it doesn't wait to finish one before starting the other. 23:51:05 emma: what if each of them do a (set! x (+ x 1)) ?? 23:51:06 Arelius, a good question. 23:51:28 i believe emma is right that parellizing those would be valid 23:51:28 In a non pure functional language you can't just call all procedures 23:51:43 neilv2: ONLY if a b and c are pure functional 23:51:46 scheme does not guarantee order of evaluation 23:52:04 of arguments 23:52:11 Sure, it would be valid if they are pure functional 23:52:13 What's the preferred name for FOLD? FOLD, FOLDL, or FOLD-LEFT? 23:52:17 The order of evaluation is unspecified, but for each combination evaluated, its subexpressions are evaluated in some sequence. 23:52:21 but afaik no compiler/interpreter actually does that 23:53:12 Riastradh: Is (Begin ...) special in that sense, as the order of evaluation is specified there? 23:53:27 (BEGIN ... ) is not a combination. 23:53:34 A combination expresses a procedure call. 23:53:38 doesn't that seem wasteful to have to wait for (a) to finish before (b) can start? 23:53:47 emma:i assume we're going to see a lot of scheme work on things like that, since dealing with multiple cores is a hot topic 23:53:52 wouldn't it be faster to have (a) , (b), and (c) workkng toward their result all at once? 23:53:53 Scheme evaluates the subexpressions of (BEGIN ... ) left to right. 23:53:59 emma: only if we have extra resources to spend 23:54:14 emma: and untill recentlly only a single core was avaliable 23:54:21 emma: So no resources were wasted 23:54:33 Arelius, i have resources to spend. I have a quad core. *beams* 23:54:51 I just had to mention that because actually I bought all the parts myself and put the computer together by hand. The first time I ever did that. 23:55:01 emma: I agree, but the scheme system cannot assume that every function is pure functional. 23:55:02 most cs researchers have had multi-processor workstations on their desks for over 10 years 23:55:18 when you say pure functional what do you mean? 23:55:35 emma, usually, you expect (BEGIN (SET! X 5) X) to yield 5. But if Scheme automatically parallelized evaluation of the subexpressions of arbitrary combinations, this would cease to be true. 23:55:40 well, then there was a blip in there, as people moved from workstations to commodity pcs, but now pcs have multicores 23:56:00 emma: That the functions only inputs are parameters, and it's only outputs are returns 23:56:04 It turns out that automatic parallelization is Hard. 23:57:01 Arelius, the inputs can also be procedures right? 23:57:24 Even in the Haskell world, where in theory programs should be rife with opportunities for parallelization on which the compiler ought to be able to readily capitalize, it's still Hard -- that is, not hard to automatically parallelize a program, but hard to automatically choose what parts of the program to parallelize in order to improve performance. 23:57:30 clojure uses transactional memory to avoid the problem of x mutating behind the scenes 23:57:52 emma: So function can't read any scope/global variables, or use (set! or any real mutation functons) 23:58:35 emma: Yeah, the inputs can be functions too, but those functions also have to be pure functional for the function to be pure functional 23:58:50 there could be some word in the language so that the programmer could dictate when to do it. (parallel (foo) (bar) .. ) 23:59:02 There are two independent problems here -- one is that Scheme programs are not in general prepared for automatic parallelization, and the other is that automatic parallelization is hard. 23:59:30 emma: I agree, but it seems that no current scheme system (maybee chez) supports native threads