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has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:58:14 dsmith [n=dsmith@173.88.196.177] has joined #scheme 04:03:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:36 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 04:05:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:06:23 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:12:28 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:14:01 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:07 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:15:06 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:21:16 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:28:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:28:49 having an issue with the gambit ffi. that channel's a litlte quiet, so: http://pastebin.com/m6839a1c 04:29:34 arcfide [i=arcfide@99.186.237.227] has joined #scheme 04:30:10 i get a crash when i dereference what to scheme should be an opaque pointer type. but it works if i i make it an explicit pointer. 04:37:09 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:37:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:39:00 -!- greyhame [n=jao@200.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:43:13 greyhame [n=jao@79.144.23.6] has joined #scheme 04:45:59 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:48:53 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:21 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-141.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 04:59:34 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:07:27 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:07:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:15:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 05:18:49 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:22:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:30 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:23:20 acieroid` [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #scheme 05:23:57 schemer999: What Scheme are you using and what does the code look like? 05:24:58 arcfide: thanks, i've got a work-around. using gambit scheme. 05:25:53 http://pastebin.com/m6839a1c if you're curious. 05:26:41 -!- sernin [n=sernin@c-24-14-190-4.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:28:10 sernin [n=sernin@c-24-14-190-4.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:29:29 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 05:34:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:35:06 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 05:36:36 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-93.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:38:02 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:43:39 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:43:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:46:12 -!- kupad [n=kupad@216.254.79.179] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:48 lisppaste: url 05:56:48 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 06:09:49 -!- greyhame [n=jao@79.144.23.6] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:16 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@99.186.237.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:22 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:41:20 greyhame [n=jao@252.Red-83-42-208.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 06:44:16 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-vuntdxwmuvsfahzi] has quit ["Page closed"] 06:50:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:51:59 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-emsiocoymmtigwpn] has joined 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15:40:45 Neither does 15:40:47 or in linux terms: can i only extract a single file from a tar.gz file without decompressiong the whole file (like zip does) 15:41:00 decompressiong! 15:41:06 thanks Jafet 15:41:31 funny ciopumpkin io diont see iot here 15:41:41 :p 15:41:44 :) 15:41:56 oops, i missed your second i 15:42:23 dammit, I wish .NET had a nice compression container format 15:42:29 like builtin 15:42:44 i dont wish another dependency on my scheme 15:42:58 You could write your own... 15:43:27 leppie, funny that you mention that. 15:43:30 I have gzip compression builtin, and a container would be easy 15:43:40 gzip the files separately 15:43:41 It turns out that yes, actually, both formats support seeking without decompression... 15:43:45 ...to a certain degree. 15:43:47 Writing your own isn't any better than taking someone else's and just putting it in the distribution. 15:43:49 hmm thanks Riastradh, you gave me a good idea :p 15:43:51 LZ77/8 would support what you need 15:43:55 and are very simple 15:43:57 just compress blocks and combine 15:44:13 yeah Jafet :) 15:44:21 like a gz.tar almost 15:44:21 leppie, you could try reading up on dictzip, gzip --rsyncable, and bzip2recover for inspiration! 15:44:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:10 (hint: with just a little bit shifting, you can use standard dd and bzip2 to extract blocks arbitrarily from within a compressed file) 15:45:11 copumpkin: I never like writing code I have no intention of understanding 15:45:29 leppie: it's simple enough that you could understand it with little effort, though :) but it's up to you 15:46:12 *leppie* has no interest in that stuff, it's other people's business 15:46:38 fair enough 15:46:41 I tried encryption, then I realized I was so far off, it was not worth the effort 15:47:11 seems odd to write off entire classes of algorithms like that though, to me :) 15:47:20 some are complicated, others less so 15:47:22 nah 15:47:35 chandler, sure it is. Writing one's own would be fun and possibly pedagogical; using an existing one is no fun at all! 15:47:48 programming is my 4th career, I know when not to bother with something :p 15:48:25 Riastradh: It depends on what you're trying to achieve, I suppose. 15:48:37 From the perspective of "adding another dependency", though, it's not any better tow rite your own. 15:48:41 "to write" even. 15:48:45 if I start programming earlier, i'm sure my young mind would have enjoyed that stuff and stuff like 3d a lot more 15:48:56 and assembly 15:49:00 OK, leppie, so start programming earlier! 15:49:03 :) 15:49:13 *copumpkin* started programming in the womb 15:49:28 s/start/started at a younger age/ 15:52:50 i was really dumb not to see it 15:53:39 i even wrote a BASIC program when I was like 6 on an ancient IBM 128k 8086 15:53:49 mainly using GOTO 15:54:31 i recall that I hated those line numbers 15:55:10 me too, that's why all my code now is on a single line 15:55:16 and I only use languages that allow me to do that 15:55:21 (no python kthx) 15:55:56 you must love perl :p 16:02:50 _Jordan__ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 16:03:08 -!- _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:21 -!- apgwoz [n=apgwoz@216.156.136.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:24 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:14:17 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:14:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:18:59 nothere [n=nothere4@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:30:06 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:34:20 iv_s [n=iv_s@92.124.58.47] has joined #scheme 16:37:21 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:39:49 sku [n=sk@217.175.6.182] has joined #scheme 16:41:58 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:58 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:35 -!- sku [n=sk@217.175.6.182] has left #scheme 16:46:21 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 16:51:03 -!- iv_s_ [n=iv_s@92.124.53.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has joined #scheme 16:56:03 sernin [n=sernin@c-24-14-190-4.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:48 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:20 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 17:03:45 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:06 rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has joined #scheme 17:04:49 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:41 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-kgyaegssnmhfhavx] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:08:37 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:51 schmir [n=schmir@p54A913F9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:16:53 -!- copumpkin is now known as TheHunter 17:16:53 -!- TheHunter is now known as copumpkin 17:22:08 apgwoz [n=apgwoz@216.156.136.2] has joined #scheme 17:24:00 lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has joined #scheme 17:24:32 dl'd scheme and built it. getting an error "scheme: can't find a readable default for option --band. 17:24:33 searched for file all.com in these directories: 17:24:33 /usr/lib/mit-scheme 17:24:33 Inconsistency detected." 17:24:42 when i try to run it. 17:26:17 In general, lighterthanair, when describing problems such as this, you must specify (1) exactly what you typed, (2) exactly what you saw, and (3) exactly what you expected to see. 17:26:31 You've done (2), approximately, and (3) isn't so important in this particular case, but you're missing (1). 17:26:39 i typed "scheme" 17:26:54 You said `dl'd scheme and built it'. What did that entail, exactly? 17:27:03 What did you download, what did you build, how did you build it, &c.? 17:27:58 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #scheme 17:28:22 following the instructions at http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/liarc-build.html, i dl'd the portable c pkg, unzipped it. built it using etc/make-liarc.sh, then logged in as admin and did make install. 17:31:10 Are you sure that's exactly what you typed? Usually Scheme won't look in /usr/lib by default. 17:31:30 yes. 17:31:40 Do you have any environment variables set whose names begin with `MITSCHEME_'? 17:31:46 E.g., MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH? 17:31:54 how would i check that? 17:31:55 (Type `env' to see them all.) 17:32:24 MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/mit-scheme 17:32:32 that's the only one 17:32:35 Well, that's why. You must have set that somewhere along the way; unset that. 17:32:58 If you're using an sh-like shell, type `unset MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH'. 17:33:57 ...and then try running Scheme again. 17:34:43 excellent. tx. 17:36:39 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:36:55 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:41:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:02 i have to get back to work. ty for all your assistance. 17:43:04 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has left #scheme 17:46:59 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:52:37 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A913F9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:05:35 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 18:07:58 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lkksxlpjftypucxy] has joined #scheme 18:08:55 -!- peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:02 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:24:47 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:26 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 18:40:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:28 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-245.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:01 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:44:10 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 18:47:23 arggg, another day without release :( 18:48:24 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-245.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:52:23 -!- chturne [n=chturne@host86-164-146-150.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:33 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:35 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:01:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-242.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:06:14 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-186-239-61.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:38 mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has joined #scheme 19:10:56 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:14:32 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:44 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 19:17:29 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-niwvdqmaaqnfzgiq] has joined #scheme 19:20:20 foof` [n=user@FLH1Afr049.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 19:22:43 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 19:24:28 slom [n=ibook@pD9EB794A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:58 -!- foof [n=user@118.110.45.189] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:07 -!- apgwoz [n=apgwoz@216.156.136.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:08 leppie: celibacy can be a bitch 19:36:34 I don't want to think about psyntax and reproduction in the same sentence. 19:37:02 not even FFFFFUUUUUUUUUU!!! ? 19:40:00 I put on my p and syntax hat 19:41:36 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@80.229.216.34] has joined #scheme 19:47:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:01:40 ahh, not another psyntax bug :) 20:03:16 apgwoz [n=apgwoz@216.156.136.2] has joined #scheme 20:15:39 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@91.191.42.159] has joined #scheme 20:16:51 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 20:21:02 mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has joined #scheme 20:21:30 -!- mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:51 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [" "] 20:34:48 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:37:59 leppie: What bug is it this time? 20:39:53 The bug is psyntax, arcfide. 20:40:17 Riastradh: We all know how you detest that particular piece of Scheme code. ;-) 20:42:04 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@89.134.66.153] has joined #scheme 20:42:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:28 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:44:07 I have to admit that I am surprised how many differences I am seeing between Chez Scheme and the psyntax that is publicly available. Given that the original psyntax came from Chez Scheme, I would have thought that it would be similar, but apparently, Aziz has really played with it. 20:45:25 Of course he's played with it without principle; that's the only way anyone can get it to do anything. 20:52:25 Do let me know if you ever break riaxpander, or find some confusing inconsistency in it. 20:54:51 Riastradh: I'll admit that I haven't found an use for riaxpander yet in my current work. 20:55:33 BTW, I have Descot guides and tutorials and a nice little toolchain that I think you'll like up there on my second tier todo list. Hopefully I will have something that you will find useful written before the end of Scheme's lifetime. 20:56:00 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 20:56:18 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:58 Persons with nothing better to do may wish to examine the new draft charters for WG1 and WG2. It is now possible to send publicly viewable comments to a new mailing list, scheme-reports@scheme-reports.info. 21:00:00 All is at http://scheme-reports.org 21:01:40 seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.16] has joined #scheme 21:03:35 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@80.229.216.34] has quit [] 21:04:55 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-161.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:05:17 arcfide, sure, it's not meant to be used as a library for anyone but implementors of Scheme systems. 21:05:59 Riastradh: Right, of course. 21:06:29 Just like psyntax. 21:08:28 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:09:34 jcowan, oh, so all the discussion on r6rs-discuss was not possible, or not sent, or not publicly viewable? 21:16:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:58 Riastradh: Quatsch. Of course it was. One may, for that matter, send comments to Mr. H.L. Ahmed, who has undertaken to shout them up a rain barrel in the middle of the mountains of Afghanistan. 21:17:11 My purpose in posting was to mention the existence of a new forum, as if there were not enough before. 21:18:49 -!- slom [n=ibook@pD9EB794A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 21:19:21 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@24.62.183.102] has joined #scheme 21:19:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 21:24:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.153] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:47 Does anyone here use Authorize.net? 21:31:09 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:58 a cyber solution 21:32:08 im going to start calling all my software "cyber software" 21:38:47 jcowan: maybe the link to the mailing list should be at the 1st page 21:39:37 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 21:40:24 -!- rus_socialist is now known as soc 21:40:32 -!- soc is now known as rusoc 21:40:54 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:42:49 mario-goulart: I'll pass on that suggestion. 21:43:18 jcowan: only if it's not much work. Just a suggestion. 21:43:19 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-245.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 21:43:29 jcowan: Thanks, BTW. 21:46:42 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:47:20 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.16] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:31 cipher [i=weinsd0@monica.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #scheme 21:55:46 mario-goulart: Done. 21:55:54 (email sent, that is; not website updated) 21:56:30 jcowan: Thank you. 21:58:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:59:15 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@cpe-173-172-99-25.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:00:27 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-143.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:52 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.187.204] has joined #scheme 22:15:49 incubot: deauthenticate me! 22:16:08 incubot: (+ 2 2) 22:16:09 4 22:16:18 incubot: feeling shy? 22:16:23 Did he kill himself out of a feeling of guilt or remorse? 22:16:41 incubot: don't kill yourself, please! 22:16:45 kill grue with syntax-case 22:17:09 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:17:19 it's dark in here. 22:19:14 Riastradh: Do you think it's possible (given that someone would want to do such a thing) to implement syntax-case on top of syntactic closures, or explicit renaming for that matter? 22:27:03 Any low-level system in which it's possible to correctly implement `syntax-rules' can be used to implement `syntax-case' (except for the reader syntax warts, of course). 22:27:39 Well, I suppose it would be possible to have a low-level system that makes `datum->syntax' difficult. 22:27:56 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:28:11 But syntactic-closures is not that system. 22:29:22 The macro systems that currently implement syntax-case are all syntactically incompatible with macro systems that use a different signature for macro transformers. 22:30:14 You could easily rebind `define-syntax', `let-syntax', & friends so that transformer values are wrapped in a `make-syntax-case-transformer', though. 22:33:45 Well, then you can't write syntactic-closure transformers anymore :/ 22:34:03 -!- foof` is now known as foof 22:35:10 Given a module system, you could make that decision on a per-module basis, but you still couldn't mix macro types within the same module. 22:36:57 Also I've been leaning towards `syntax-object-transformer' since you can still write macros without actually using the `syntax-case' destructuring. 22:38:01 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 22:39:02 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 22:39:31 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:25 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:49:06 tls [n=tls@5356F443.cable.casema.nl] has joined #scheme 22:49:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:23 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:54:46 ryuho [n=ryuho@24-180-7-72.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:54:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:00 question, often asked before i guess, but i'm still looking: What native Scheme compiler for Windows? Free? 22:56:17 Larceny experiences anyone? 22:58:29 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 22:59:54 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-niwvdqmaaqnfzgiq] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:25 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 23:03:00 -!- tls [n=tls@5356F443.cable.casema.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:20 I committed grand larceny once 23:10:57 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:58 foof: You can still mix if other transformers are surrounded by a `make-sc-transformer', `make-er-transformer', etc. 23:13:51 Rebinding syntax-binding forms would only select which form of low-level macro system appears without an explicit macro system denotation. 23:15:11 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 23:16:40 I'm not sure if these answers amount to yes or no. 23:17:12 Given an existing Scheme without syntax-case, can we get syntax-case on it, at least with respect to specific modules? (I'm not talking Chicken here.) 23:17:21 What do you mean by `syntax-case'? 23:17:28 That's what it boils down to. 23:17:57 If you're ok with "with respect to specific modules", and you're either ommitting the reader syntactic warts or assuming that the host has some way of extending the reader, then the answer is "yes". 23:18:23 By warts, you mean things like #'foo = (syntax foo)? 23:18:27 Yes. 23:18:43 (Maybe "decorations" would be a better word, but they're a little too ugly for that in my opinion.) 23:18:57 ' is rather a wart too. 23:19:36 But it's a handy knob that we have all gotten quite used to. 23:19:50 Yes, as are "`", ",", and ",@". 23:19:56 *jcowan* nods. 23:20:44 And what are the constraints on the underlying low-level hygienic system? Does it have to have the power of s-c, or will e-r suffice? 23:22:17 Almost any low-level macro system will do, provide that it's expressive enough to be used to implement `syntax-rules'. 23:22:21 (Come to think of it, the HCL paper suggests that define-macro will suffice, and define-macro is possible on e-r trivially.) 23:23:29 greyhame [n=jao@119.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:06 lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has joined #scheme 23:24:41 chandler: OK, assuming you also redefine sc-macro-transformer & friends in the module. 23:25:59 foof: I'm not sure what you mean by that. 23:26:11 I'm pretty sure you can't implement syntax-case in ER 23:27:16 chandler: If you redefine define-syntax to change the signature of transformers, you also need to change the existing transformers to match that signature. 23:28:42 foof: No, that's not quite what I'm thinking: I'm supposing that things like `sc-macro-transformer' return non-procedures; all the redefined `define-syntax' would do is to call `syntax-object-transformer' on anything which is a procedure. 23:28:48 I'm talking about the paper "Hygiene for the Unhygienic", which layers full hygiene in CL over defmacro by exploiting symbol macros. 23:29:08 http://p-cos.net/documents/hygiene.pdf 23:29:28 jcowan: That's for showing me that! 23:29:49 I was going to do it myself, since I couldn't find it done anywhere. 23:29:52 What is? 23:29:55 -!- mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has left #scheme 23:29:59 foof: In other words, (scheme:define-syntax define-syntax (syntax-rules () ((_ name transformer) (scheme:define-syntax name (let ((t transformer)) (if (procedure? t) (syntax-object-transformer t) t))))) 23:30:06 s/That's/Thanks 23:30:19 Oh. I thought you were referring to the virtual beating you were about to administer. 23:30:40 There is even a tricky bit at the end about interoperation between HCL and ordinary CL packages. 23:31:34 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:38 I think I was going to implement it the same way too. 23:31:50 *jcowan* wonders if identifier macros should be added to Thing One, given their evident power. So far, I've mostly been looking at the potential for abuse. 23:32:09 Yes; identifier syntax is fantastically useful. 23:32:35 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-141.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:32:41 It also takes away power, making some types of macros impossible. 23:32:46 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-78.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 23:32:49 foof: Which types? 23:33:00 chandler: Also fantastically useful at rendering code unintelligible. 23:33:10 Any which assume a literal symbol is a variable reference. 23:33:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has joined #scheme 23:33:32 Programmers who assume that (like me) are also made impossible. 23:33:38 A number of these were discussed during the R6RS process. 23:33:46 Oh, I personally wouldn't care much if identifier syntax was restricted to aliasing other identifiers, for what it's worth. 23:34:01 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:34:11 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 23:34:28 However, I'll point out that the full form of identifier syntax can be used to implement things like R6RS `letrec' and `letrec*' semantics on top of `let' & friends, whereas to the best of my knowledge it's not possible to do that without that. 23:35:20 e.g. my term optimizer (which was used to make a real-world C program substantially faster) could not meaningfully be implemented in the presense of identifier syntax 23:35:26 OK, I found the cop-out in Pascal's paper: "To achieve this, all binding forms (defvar, defun defmacro, let, let*, flet, macrolet, and so on) have to be reimplemented in a way similar to alambda and alet, so that they can generate the necessary mappings from external to internal names." 23:35:52 So, it doesn't require a code walker provided you redefine Common Lisp. 23:36:10 HCL != CL, though they can interoperate under a fairly weak set of assumptions. 23:36:55 I don't see what makes this preferable to ER implemented with a code-walker. 23:37:33 The fact of not doing code walking. You just operate in the HCL package, which imports CL and shadows the macros. 23:37:57 Better to reimplement (mechanically) a small number of macros than to code-walk huge code bases. 23:38:20 s/operate in/operate in the HCL-USER package, which imports/ 23:38:24 Why? The implementation effort actually seems worse to me. 23:38:53 Well, it may be a matter of taste. 23:38:55 The set of all binding forms in standard Common Lisp is huge, but many of those will macroexpand to a small set of special forms. 23:39:17 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:32 But you can't predict what, or even be sure that they don't expand to implementation-specific crud. 23:40:32 The amount of implementation-specific crud in practice is actually quite small... 23:40:35 I think I found two special forms in SBCL and one in CCL that I needed to worry about. 23:40:43 (Or maybe it was the other way around.) 23:41:26 *jcowan* nods. 23:41:58 I remember that Xerox CL was just riddled with them, thanks to the Interlisp foundation. 23:43:12 The advantage to using this approach is that you can assume that all the world underneath you is built with hygiene. 23:44:32 I'd like to see another approach which turns symbols into identifiers by introducing another, sub-eq level of identity. Two EQ symbols might not be FREE-IDENTIFIER= or BOUND-IDENTIFIER=. 23:44:48 Hygiene™ 23:45:53 Apropos des noms: 23:46:15 In Flopsy, all procedures that are polymorphic in Scheme are really syntax, notably EQV? and EQUAL?. 23:46:33 In this system, traditional quasiquote-style macros become hygienic automatically, plus the hygiene information is carried forward at runtime, which makes it possible to do interesting kinds of runtime-dispatch things that operate lexically. For instance, you could store all the fields of a record in an association list, provided you use FREE-IDENTIFIER= to find keys. 23:46:39 So I need to provide, for Flopsy's four data types, some monomorphic procedures to supplement them. 23:47:46 For numbers, = does the job. For strings, we have string= and for vectors SRFI-43 (which I implement) has vector=. There remain booleans and procedures. 23:48:11 If things were done my way, I'd promote the usual symbol equality function to `eqv?', such that (eq? (let ((x 1)) 'x) (let ((x 2)) 'x)) -> #f 23:48:32 R6RS has (as a last-minute addition) boolean=, and I need to add string-eqv and vector-eqv. 23:48:51 jcowan: I'm not sure why you're making polymorphic functions syntax, instead of supplying some slow-but-correct runtime fallback and using the equivalent of compiler macros for optimization. 23:49:25 Because Flopsy is translated directly into monomorphic C. 23:50:07 The compiler notices when you are asking "(eqv? some-boolean some-number) and compiles that as #f. 23:50:13 based on its type inference. 23:50:25 Why not just make this a typed language, then? 23:50:33 But passing eqv? to a procedure doesn't work, because it infects the procedure with polymorphism. 23:50:38 It *is* a typed language, just implicitly so. 23:51:00 Note that if identifier macros were also able to detect when they're called in an operator position you could implement compiler macros as a library. 23:51:13 foof: good point 23:51:58 chandler: There simply is no representation of "Scheme object" in Flopsy; everything becomes in the end an int, a double, a double *, or a procedure involving these. 23:52:51 Anyhow, what I'm asking about is the name of the (true) procedure that compares procedures for identity. Because there are no closures, such a thing is no problem at the C level (it's ==), but I'm not sure what to name it at the Scheme level; 23:53:03 procedure-eqv? and procedure=? being the leading candidates. 23:54:03 the former looks like string-eqv? and vector-eqv?, the latter like boolean=. If it weren't for the R6RS precedent of boolean= (which clearly is meant to resemble =, string=, char=, etc.) then I'd go with foo-eqv? for all four foos. 23:54:10 It's a small point, but I feel stuck on it. 23:54:15 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@91.191.42.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:17 -!- mabes [n=mabes@66.236.74.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:54:19 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:54:24 Rather than having identifier macros that detect how they're used, I'd like to see some kind of literal macro expression as a syntactic analogue to lambda, such that ((syntax-here (syntax-rules () ((_ arg1) 'arg1))) a) -> a, and (list (syntax-here (syntax-rules () (_ 'a)))) -> (a) 23:54:38 This would also be sufficient to implement compiler macros. 23:56:06 jcowan: I'm not sure why `boolean=' was named the way it was; I suppose I'd pick `procedure-eqv?'. 23:56:34 Okay, I'm sold. I'll go with boolean-eqv?, too. Those who don't like it can redefine it. 23:56:57 Flopsy now has 159 procedures and pseudo-procedures in its library, but fortunately most of them are provided by math.h, so I don't have to write them. 23:57:47 (c-define exp-minus-1 (number number) "expm1") and similar lines do most of the work. 23:59:42 The other polymorphic procedures are ones that take a polymorphic function argument depending on how many vectors you pass to them.