00:00:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:54 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:01:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:03:01 geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:07:41 quick poll: take a guess at what `string-utf-8-length' does. and please, don't cheat by looking it up 00:09:04 Either: 1) Return the number of bytes the string would require in UTF-8, or 2) return the number of Unicode codepoints the byte-string represents if interpreted as UTF-8. 00:09:05 The number of bytes used by the UTF-8 representation of a given string. 00:10:23 ok now how about `bytes-utf-8-length' 00:10:40 No guess. 00:10:47 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 00:10:59 you can use a life-line 00:11:07 That's my #2. 00:12:10 No; the function name doesn't really make sense to me. 00:12:13 i would call 'string-utf-8-length' -> 'string-utf-8-byte-length' 00:12:35 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 00:15:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:39 Riastradh: do you think it would make sense to add a destructuring bind form to foof-loop? 00:18:49 string-length-of-bytes-as-utf-8 00:19:21 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:47 rotty: The original variant and my version of Riastradh's syntax both support implicit destructuring bind on all loop variables. 00:19:53 E.g. (loop ((for entry (in-list '((x y) (1 2)))) (let-match (a b) entry) (listing a) (listing b))) 00:20:39 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 00:20:39 => (loop ((for (a b) (in-list '((x y) (1 2)))) (listing a) (listing b))) 00:21:39 foof: nice. do you use your R5RS matcher? 00:21:44 yes 00:22:02 s/R5RS/R5RS syntax-rules based/ 00:23:00 You're free to use your own pattern matching inside the body, but the implicit matching is just so convenient, adds zero overhead, and is a small enough library that it seems justified. 00:24:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:40 foof: I agree. Is the code (other than that addition) very different from Riastradh's version? 00:24:55 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:25:47 yes, very 00:26:32 It's a modification of the original loop to sync with Riastradh's syntax (and has some minor semantic differences such as no let-values). 00:26:58 Whereas Riastradh made a complete rewrite from scratch. 00:28:14 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:21 *rotty* is thinking about adding that feature to Riastradh's version, which he already has packaged as `(spells foof-loop)' 00:29:54 All you need to do is replace the LETs with MATCH-LETs. 00:30:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-68.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:56 Oh wait... 00:31:13 yeah... 00:31:16 Sorry, those LETs are LET-VALUES in Riastradh's version... 00:31:49 chandler: BTW, re "They already have declared that their dialect is `scheme'" -- there *was* a discussion on how should the default language should be called, and overall `plt-scheme' seemed too redundant given that you're already in the context of PLT. 00:32:11 *foof* curses MV for making things difficult once again 00:32:52 eli: It's as good a name as anyway. 00:33:51 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:43 If I had a nickel for every time I thought "that's easy, all you need to do is X" then realize that it breaks with MV, I'd be a very rich man. 00:37:39 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 00:44:09 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 00:50:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:01 -!- foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-45-189.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit ["*sigh*"] 00:51:02 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:52:03 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:58:51 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:02:54 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:32 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:08:19 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-198-225.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:13:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 01:13:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:20:10 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@129.44.182.54] has joined #scheme 01:21:54 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:56 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 01:28:49 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.134.131] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:32:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:14 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 01:35:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 01:46:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-100.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:48:00 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:45 anyone had a look at this? http://jonathan.tang.name/files/scheme_in_48/tutorial/overview.html 01:50:11 "Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours: A Haskell Tutorial" 01:50:38 sounds promising, but i stopped reading after his description of monads; which irritated me, for some reason 01:51:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nuqdjsjlyjkgbiph] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:52:21 -!- Arelius` [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:52:31 <_Pb> speaking of that, i've been meaning to pick apart a scheme implemented in c 01:52:51 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 01:52:55 <_Pb> what's one that is readable to someone who knows little about GCs, parsers, lexers, etc 01:53:45 err, one what? 01:56:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:03:59 joojii [n=joojii@98.119.31.85] has joined #scheme 02:05:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:07:11 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:47 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:00 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 02:13:29 cky [n=cky@h-96-15-110-150.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:23 Quick Q: What is the most popular LOOP macro for Scheme (I'm using PLT). Mucho thanks. 02:16:04 Summermute: Can't comment on "most popular" but I tend to use "named let" a lot. 02:16:31 I'm also not sure if that's "loop-like" enough for you. 02:16:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:51 Yes, I was looking for something a bit more like CL loop. 02:16:57 Hmm. 02:17:28 Nice thing is pretty much sequence agnostic but still reasonably efficient 02:17:55 but I too am a fan of named let :-) 02:18:10 -!- joojii [n=joojii@98.119.31.85] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:14 Hehehe. :-) 02:18:57 Summermute: If you're in PLT, then the most popular macro is `for' and friends. 02:19:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:19:04 And I'm one of the few that likes DO loops too - good for looping over parallel sequences 02:19:49 rudybot: eval (for/list ([x "abc"] [y '(1 2 3)] [z '#(x y z)]) (list x y z)) 02:19:49 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:19:49 eli: ; Value: ((#\a 1 x) (#\b 2 y) (#\c 3 z)) 02:19:58 I'll dig around for those - I did find SRFI 41 (?) with all the various (ec-... forms. pretty nifty 02:20:11 rudybot: eval (for*/list ([x "abc"] [y '(1 2)]) (list x y)) 02:20:11 eli: ; Value: ((#\a 1) (#\a 2) (#\b 1) (#\b 2) (#\c 1) (#\c 2)) 02:20:44 rudybot: eval (for*/list ([x "abc"] [y (in-naturals)]) (list x y)) 02:20:47 eli: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 02:20:50 Ugh. 02:20:53 rudybot: eval (for/list ([x "abc"] [y (in-naturals)]) (list x y)) 02:20:54 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:20:54 eli: ; Value: ((#\a 0) (#\b 1) (#\c 2)) 02:20:55 (for .... looke pretty cool 02:21:43 Summermute: It is roughly based on stuff from srfi 42 and a few more things. 02:21:58 rudybot: eval (define t (make-hash)) 02:22:07 Ideally I'd love something like Haskell's fancy list compehensions but with foldl/foldr/sum/avg/etc. at the end, not just list collection. 02:22:12 rudybot: eval (hash-set! t 1 "one") (hash-set! t 2 "two") 02:22:28 rudybot: eval (for ([(k v) (in-hash t)]) (list k '= v)) 02:22:40 *eli* slaps rudybot 02:22:51 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:23:13 Ugh. 02:23:16 rudybot: eval (for/list ([(k v) (in-hash t)]) (list k '= v)) 02:23:17 eli: ; Value: ((1 = "one") (2 = "two")) 02:23:33 *eli* keeps forgetting that offby1 made rudybot say nothing when the result is void. 02:24:11 Summermute: I've played with a loop macro too, and my macro even has the ability to specify a left/right direction. 02:24:13 Groovy, will the (for/ form loop over key/val pairs in hash tables? 02:24:20 But I don't think that it was ever useful. 02:24:37 eli: that's a bit of God's work :-0 02:24:39 Yes, that's what I did in the above. 02:25:52 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:14 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 02:26:47 In my toy language, I have a for x <- seq form with for <<- seq looping from right to left. Pay for lists, but it's as much a vector sequence languages as not. 02:27:32 rudybot: eval (require swindle/misc) 02:27:56 rudybot: eval (list-of (* x x) [x <- 1 .. 10]) 02:27:56 eli: ; Value: (1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100) 02:28:03 rudybot: eval (list-of (* x x) [x <- 1 ..< 10]) 02:28:03 eli: ; Value: (1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81) 02:29:20 rudybot: eval (collect (acc '() (cons expr acc)) [x <- '(1 2 3)]) 02:29:21 eli: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: expr in module: 'program 02:29:34 Quick q: does (for/ support (1) predicates for skipping/including items in the sequence and (2) parallel and "cartesian product" iteration over multiple sequences? 02:29:47 rudybot: eval (collect (acc '() (cons x acc)) [x <- '(1 2 3)]) 02:29:48 eli: ; Value: (3 2 1) 02:29:56 rudybot: eval (collect => (acc '() (cons x acc)) [x <- '(1 2 3)]) 02:29:56 eli: error: eval:1:0: collect: bad syntax in: (collect => (acc (quote ()) (cons x acc)) (x <- (quote (1 2 3)))) 02:30:44 rudybot: eval (require (rename-in mzscheme [=> ==>])) 02:30:44 eli: error: eval:1:20: rename-in: identifier `=>' not included in nested require spec at: mzscheme in: (rename-in mzscheme (=> ==>)) 02:30:52 Bah. 02:30:55 Obscure point there. 02:31:03 The second one would do a foldr loop. 02:31:27 Summermute: For a predicate: 02:31:44 rudybot: eval (for/list ([x (in-range 0 10)] #:when (even? x)) x) 02:31:44 eli: ; Value: (0 2 4 6 8) 02:31:55 And for a cartesian product: 02:32:08 Cool = when/unless is what i had in mind 02:32:22 rudybot: eval (for*/list ([x (in-range 0 4)] [y (in-range 0 4)]) (+ (* 10 x) y)) 02:32:22 eli: ; Value: (0 1 2 3 10 11 12 13 20 21 22 23 30 31 32 33) 02:32:35 Nice! 02:32:41 `for*/...' are doing nested loops. 02:33:09 Ok, I'm going to frob the docs - thanks again 02:33:12 The nice thing about the syntax is that in some cases all you need to do is change `let' to `for' to make some code work on a sequence. 02:33:26 That's the reason for `for' and `for*'. 02:34:11 Slick 02:35:04 eli: Oh, by the way, this confused me: 02:35:06 rudybot: init r5rs 02:35:07 chandler: your r5rs sandbox is ready 02:35:14 I increasingly think that PLT is really a Lisp 1 CLtL2 :) 02:35:15 rudybot: eval (#%require srfi/1) 02:35:31 rudybot: (count values '(#f #t #t)) 02:35:31 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 02:35:35 rudybot: eval (count values '(#f #t #t)) 02:35:35 chandler: error: count: expected argument of type ; given {#f #t #t} 02:35:59 Summermute: It's probably beyond CLtL 02:36:20 chandler: What's confusing? 02:36:24 No streams or generators or CLOS :-) 02:36:59 eli: What isn't proper about '(#f #t #t)? 02:37:51 Summermute: I don't remember the point in streams or generators, but we have some good support for laziness (upto a lazy language); and Swindle implements a pretty big chunk of CLOS, but the PLT object system is better. 02:37:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:39:10 chandler: Is this a flame, or a real question? 02:39:30 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060024016bb36c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:39:38 eli: in what way is the PLT object system better than Swindle? 02:39:44 eli: No, it's not a flame. 02:40:40 eli: The answer might well be that I'm doing something wrong by using #%require to pull srfi/1 into the R5RS language. 02:40:52 chandler: the r5rs language uses mpairs, and srfi/1 expects immutable pairs. 02:41:38 Is there a method (short of loading the reference implementation) to get SRFI-1 in the R5RS language? 02:42:21 chandler: Probably the reference is the best way. 02:42:30 OK. See, no flame! 02:42:46 chandler: Or write a wrapper that converts the mlists to lists and back. 02:43:06 chandler: (The reason I asked is that it's the same thing as the r6rs issue, and I thought that this was very clear now...) 02:44:11 jao: CLOS is slow in some major ways, it relies on side-effects to define methods (a major PITA), it has a weird notion of methods that is really elegant but I'm tired of nobody getting it, and it is very over MOP-ized which complicates everything -- in a way that I *really* *like*, but I haven't seen any good uses of it. 02:44:27 BTW, my next wishlist is for typed-scheme to generate uber-fast bytecodes (better suited to JIT) and then move the key libs over to type-scheme, only taking a hit on the contract boundaries with non-typed-scheme modules. Yum :-) 02:44:34 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060024016bb36c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 02:45:21 Summermute: At this point I think that it's reasonable to not expect some huge speed gains... 02:45:32 Agreed on CLOS - more of less an elegant solution in search of interesting problems. 02:45:46 Yeah... 02:46:05 And my problem is that I went straight into implementing the solution, before I had a problem. 02:46:46 Really? Even on non-checked fixnums, fast equals?, lots of elided type checks and so on? 02:47:13 I honestly haven't found a serious use for the MOP myself, but I've seen several persistent metaclass implementations that appear to make good use of the flexibility. 02:47:33 Summermute: I don't think you're having the same conversation that everyone else is having again. 02:48:07 I have a ~20 year old book on CLOS and it all the examples in the articles seem to be about persistence and instrumentaton. Yawn. 02:48:29 Summermute: Well, you have scheme/unsafe/ops now -- so you can try it yourself... 02:48:32 Whoops. 02:49:25 chandler: What Summermute said... I know about the persistence solution, and I always thought that it was a very elegant solution -- but the problem is that this is pretty much the only thing I know about. 02:49:26 I think it might be too long since I frobbed the innards of a lisp implementation 02:50:29 Pascal Costanza's done some other interesting stuff with the MOP, but I half wonder if it wouldn't have been just as easy to define a new language. 02:50:46 Personally, my meta-needs have been met well by DEFCLASS-wrapping macros. 02:50:47 chandler: But to add to that, the generic dipatch mechanism is itself MOP-ized, and I haven't seen uses of this too... (In Swindle I've made some additional MOP-ped things.) 02:51:05 i'm using swindle to code a serialization library. it feels natural to me, but perhaps i don't really get it. 02:51:22 isakovic [n=user@206.251.244.144] has joined #scheme 02:51:37 jao: I'd think that would be a good use 02:51:57 jao: I don't know -- it took me a while to change my opinion -- and I changed it more on all OO systems. I just don't see a need for them... 02:52:01 eli: Did you read the paper on custom specializers in SBCL? 02:52:44 chandler: No. I think that I went out of the CL world before SBCL was (or before it was popular). 02:52:52 tjafk [n=timj@e176205075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:01 eli: What might you prefer? haskell style type classes (and associated implementation mechanism)? 02:53:02 If you're interested: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2008/paper.pdf 02:53:20 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176194072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:53:49 Summermute: No, I just find plain functions, modules, etc fine. (Haskell type classes are very different, BTW -- they're more similar to struct properties in PLT.) 02:54:03 There was another paper on predicate multimethods that I read a few years ago that was also interesting, but seemed extremely difficult to do anything with efficiently. 02:54:19 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #scheme 02:54:45 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 02:54:45 Predicate multimethods are pretty intriguing 02:54:51 I think it's cited in the custom specializers paper. 02:54:56 Yes, it is. 02:57:51 building PLT scheme takes a while 02:59:03 Ciao for now - thanks for all the pointers 02:59:42 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:59:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:00:18 chandler: I can't see what's new there -- is it the `cons'? 03:00:36 Elly: You can skip the documentation to make it quicker. 03:01:21 I like having the documentation :P 03:08:50 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 03:22:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:22:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:33 incubot: seen foof 03:22:37 oh, yes 03:22:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:22:54 rudybot: seen foof 03:22:54 Arelius: foof was seen in/on #scheme two hours, forty-six minutes ago, saying "If I had a nickel for every time I thought "that's easy, all you need to do is X" then realize that it breaks with MV, I'd be a very rich man.", and then foof was seen quitting in/on FL1-118-110-45-189.osk.mesh.ad.jp two hours, thirty-one minutes ago, saying ""*sigh*"" 03:28:47 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30:51 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:31:35 incubot: thou saucy rascal 03:31:38 Saucy. 03:33:07 incubot: away, you malapert! your frowardness had well nigh ruined me 03:33:10 For that matter it is nigh impossible to do the right thing; or, `the right thing' is rather unclear. 03:44:23 Anyone used cpscm or some such to compile scheme to javascript? 03:46:56 scheme makes me feel guilty for using vim 03:47:02 I feel like it wants to be edited in emacs 03:47:31 Elly: That is because it does 03:47:40 but I know not the ways of emacs :( 03:56:32 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:12:26 why is it illegal for a field without a default to follow a field with a default? 04:13:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:53 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:31:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:32 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:34:23 -!- isakovic [n=user@206.251.244.144] has left #scheme 04:36:06 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:12 scheme does not want to be edited in emacs on my computer. 04:39:45 scheme wants to be edited in DrScheme or in some command line interpreter. 04:47:14 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:51:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:43 ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has joined #scheme 05:01:11 -!- cky [n=cky@h-96-15-110-150.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:02:02 cky [n=cky@166.165.98.3] has joined #scheme 05:04:34 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:13:26 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:59 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:19:02 klutometis, yes, I've seen , and I think it's a great way to give a completely bogus characterization of Scheme implemented in very badly written Haskell, and my response is . 05:20:05 rotty, you can take , and substitute MATCH-LET for LET in the appropriate places. 05:20:29 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-41-97.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:27:50 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 05:28:12 jonnay [n=user@d173-183-142-146.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 05:29:41 So I am playing with Gambit/Blackhole/Spork, and I am trying to get a spork to return a request with a content type of "text/css". No love, no luck. I know its a bit of a long shot, but can anyone help? 05:33:04 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Success] 05:35:09 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 05:41:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:29 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:42:30 jonnay, if nobody answers here, you would probably be best off asking on the Gambit mailing list; the authors of Blackhole, I believe, are active on it. 05:46:19 Thanks Riastradh... that was my next step. 05:47:46 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:50:46 incubot [i=incubot@72.51.35.14] has joined #scheme 05:59:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:08:10 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@129.44.182.54] has quit [] 06:10:00 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 06:13:43 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-57.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:38 Riastradh: amazing; elegant 06:27:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:46 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:28:59 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:49 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 06:48:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:48:25 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:55:04 schemer999iphone [n=schemeri@166.205.134.44] has joined #scheme 06:59:45 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 07:08:26 -!- ASau 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#scheme 15:06:50 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:18 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 15:08:01 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-200.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:17:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:43 ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has joined #scheme 15:20:22 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:17 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:22:36 Riastradh: regarding foof-loop with pattern matching: yeah, using a pattern-matching RECEIVE and LET-VALUES, as well as massaging the syntax error checking. I'm not sure how to do the latter gracefully 15:24:02 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 15:24:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:25:16 Riastradh: for now i've just "turned off" SYNTACTIC-ERROR-IF-NOT-NAME, and the result seems to work. 15:25:43 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:12 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:44 seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.23] has joined #scheme 15:29:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:07 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:29:29 -!- jonnay [n=user@d173-183-142-146.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:59 kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:34:34 -!- higepon526 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-205-128.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:37:30 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 15:38:12 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:19 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:50:49 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 15:58:32 Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.63] has joined #scheme 16:00:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:02:18 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:10:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:17:40 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 16:19:02 bitnoix [n=bitnoix@mna75-3-89-83-43-131.dsl.club-internet.fr] has joined #scheme 16:20:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:14 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:22:01 i have a project split up into several modules, with some of them requiring others to work 16:22:23 ie module 2 needs module 1, module 4 needs module 1 and 3 etc 16:23:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:18 is there a more elegant way to include them than listing all the "requires" in each file? 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16:58:26 it looks like the latest release is "on February 2, 2008." 16:58:35 that's quite a while ago 17:00:54 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 17:04:55 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:56 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:39 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:09:34 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 17:21:47 -!- cky [n=cky@166.165.98.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:09 -!- bitnoix [n=bitnoix@mna75-3-89-83-43-131.dsl.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:31:05 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:31 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:39 ktne: there's stuff happening in the repo at least... http://ikarus-scheme.org/ikarus.dev/ 17:39:50 i've got that one right now 17:40:22 anything interesting? 17:41:01 ktne: no idea, when I looked at it, it lacked a FFI 17:41:14 so I didn't look closer 17:41:41 i see 17:42:05 i'm looking for a scheme where eval is compiled 17:42:11 that's why ikarus looks interesting to me 17:43:20 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:05 snorble: it has an FFI since quite some time. amd64 support too. 17:45:50 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 17:46:12 rotty: ok, maybe time to look at it again. I see it has a fairly active google group too. Doesn't look very dead to me. 17:46:42 For any PLT'ers out there, I'm going over the for for/list etc. routines and am finding it pretty opaque compared to SRFI-41. Just wondering what that rationale was behind the whole for/XXXX subsystem? 17:47:47 And I'm grooving pretty hard on PLT Scheme otherwise.... FWIW 17:47:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:49:33 morphir [n=morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 17:50:41 closures are used to avoid state, and as such create the illution of a object/"state system" 17:50:47 WuJiang [n=wujiang@129.10.117.100] has joined #scheme 17:51:00 -!- WuJiang [n=wujiang@129.10.117.100] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:24 but, how efficient is it compared to traditional OO? 17:51:49 is closures demanding on the cpu? 17:52:32 I sorta think of them as a keep-the-engine-running situation. 17:53:00 closures do you have extra CPU state, they just occupy memory 17:53:15 sometimes recursive processes just seem like magic almost. It's really quite remarkable in a certain way. 17:53:42 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:50 morphir: closures should have no CPU hit more than (and perhaps less than) a "this" parameter in other OO systems - FWIW. 17:54:12 interessting 17:54:16 morphir: a closure will just create something that resembles an object 17:54:38 internally at least 17:55:34 why haskell, when you have scheme? 17:55:38 I dont get that either 17:55:50 it has been bugging me for months now 17:55:54 haskell is purely functional, they are very different languages 17:56:02 Think of a closure as a pair (, #(environment slots in vector)) When you call the first pair element, you pass the second "environment" element. That's the general case. For module private, letrec bound, etc. closures, a nice compiler can do even better. 17:56:25 ktne: but they are both based on lambda calculus 17:56:53 cky [n=cky@h-98-133-0-251.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 17:57:02 morphir: imperative functional languages are pure functional just at the level of small statements 17:57:16 haskell is a completelly pure functional language, it has no side effects at all 17:57:44 what about a pure functional lisp? 17:57:44 Haskell has a sophisticated type system - it's kind of a playground for novel type systems. Plays a totally different role than scheme (and compiles and runs like the dickens too if you know how to write good haskell :-) 17:58:09 Try closure 17:58:25 clojure? 17:58:27 morphir: i'm sure there must be some programming language that is a sort of pure functional lisp :) 17:58:55 morphir: scheme and lisp have more real world usage than haskell 17:59:01 if that's a relevant point :) 17:59:32 Google for closure - it has a remarkable amount of momentum behind it - runs on the JVM, pure functional, parallel computation oriented, etc. 17:59:48 Summermute: Clojure. :-P 18:00:08 Whoops, can't spell to save my sould :-) 18:00:14 :) 18:00:16 I know clojure :) 18:00:43 What's worse, I've been using ccl - clozure :-) 18:00:54 Hehehehehe. 18:00:58 I started jvm 5 minutes ago. Soon it will be ready to recieve commands 18:01:12 :) 18:02:26 I'm dying to wind it up (clojure, that is) on a nice pair of quad cpu's and see how she compares to a nicely written single threaded equivalent C benchmark. 18:02:28 ktne: what exactly is imprative with scheme? 18:02:35 set! 18:02:43 (set! a 42) 18:02:52 yeah 18:02:55 more? 18:03:03 imperative means that when you call a function, the function call change things 18:03:13 (string-set! mystr #\d) 18:03:18 pure functional means that when you call a function, the function just returns a value, nothing is modified 18:03:41 There is more to it than that 18:03:48 well, an oversimplification :) 18:04:17 Pure functional means that each function describes a direct relationship between the declared inputs and outputs 18:04:28 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-199-147.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 18:04:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:42 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:04:59 with no side effects during evaluation 18:05:36 you have to update state at some times 18:05:49 In a pure functional language , it would look like this (let* ((q (make-string 4 #\e)) (q' (string-set! 1 q #\f))) (print q)(print q')) 18:05:50 else computation makes no pragmatic sense 18:06:00 Well, if side effects occurred (as they always do in any existing implementation), they are clearly invisible (since no other function can expose them) 18:06:13 Gives: "eeee" "efee" 18:06:27 morphir: in a pure functional language you do not update state, you take a state object and return a new one 18:06:42 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:06:55 (print foo) ; modifies the state of the universe. 18:06:55 Any "set" creates a new data structure and must be rebound - vectors and hashes too! But there are data structures that make this tolerable. 18:07:17 Need a monad :-) 18:07:45 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:55 Clean uses uniqueness typing 18:08:07 You know clean? 18:08:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:25 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:08:43 Very cool - one of those languages I just don't have learning time for. All the darned languages have gotten so big :-) 18:09:02 No, I don't. But it has interesting concepts 18:09:22 I don't feel so bad then :-))))) 18:10:40 morphir: so grokking the whole pure functional thing? 18:10:42 :) 18:10:55 most developers have not even heard of scheme :) 18:11:02 much less haskell or clean :) 18:11:41 That's a true shame - but let's not count the VB secretaries-cum-developers and Fortran super computer hackers ;-) 18:11:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:44 i have found that reading too much programming.reddit.com makes you feel like living in a bubble :) too much new stuff 18:12:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:12:07 whereas stackoverflow is more "real" stuff :) 18:12:45 The tower-of-Babel edifice of tools upon tools surrounding the Java language is truly imposing - and I was an early Java adopter way back in 1996!!!! 18:13:36 I'll check out stackoverflow and massage my bruised self esteem ;-) 18:14:45 :) 18:15:51 Anyway, back to my earlier inquiry - compare SRFI 42 and all the for*/list type routines (findable in PLT's help search system) and ask yourself what is more straightforward. If nothing else, the SRFI docs are way more understandable (and that's for an SRFI!) 18:15:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:13 ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has joined #scheme 18:17:04 Unless I've stumbled on a Chicken cabal, whereupon i'll say "Sorry, nevermind...." 18:20:53 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #scheme 18:20:54 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:54 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:21:43 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:22:07 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:17 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:22:24 Or is that a "Chicken roost" :-) 18:23:25 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:44 Summermute: I understand purely functional programming, yes 18:24:48 yay 18:26:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:12 Really, there's a very nice pure-functional language hidden inside of scheme. PLT already has functional (non-mutable) cons cells by default. 18:26:28 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:29:01 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 18:29:11 My toy language (written in Scheme) is nearly pure functional, excepting data in constructors so i can expression new Vec.copy(#(1,2,3,4)) naturally in the language without a "magic primitive." 18:30:08 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 18:30:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:27 How does it handle I/O? 18:30:34 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:30:36 (Does it?) 18:32:11 To be honest, nothing special. Aside from bindings vs. mutable variables, the main point of the language is to be super convenient to program in - think SML (it is typed) meets Python :-) 18:32:52 It also supports both mutable and immutable vectors. 18:33:59 The fun is in the control structures, including idiomatic approaches to concurrency so one doesn't have to hang oneself with raw threads and locks. 18:34:09 what does that have to do with i/o ? 18:34:51 Oh, I'm just too caffeinated and rambling - sorry 18:36:20 chturne [n=charles@host86-154-219-125.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:37:07 But down deep, there's a good old routine fun? puts(Str, Int = 0 -> Unit) (that's the function abstract signature including optional parameters) 18:37:33 So as I said, nothing special on the I/O front. 18:38:37 Python is typed! 18:39:29 tNL (my lang) is manifestly typed with local type inference (function sigs must be typed) 18:40:02 BTW, there is a special place in my heart for python. made good use of it in the early 2000's 18:40:46 Dare I ask what tNl stands for? :P 18:40:52 *tNL 18:40:54 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-133-0-251.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:40:59 cky [n=cky@h-98-132-159-211.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:27 It's pretty much a "non-name" I started an OO doc called NL for "New Lang". It grew to over 500 pages of notes, syntax, semantics, and on and on. So I picked out a smaller core language focusing on the interesting parts and called it tNL for "tinyNL" - but like it said, really just non-names :-) 18:43:22 I kind of like tNL, so I might "back fill" some other meaning to it :-) 18:43:38 I used to think that APL and CPL stood for "A Programming Language" and "Computer Programming Language" 18:43:47 Ha! 18:44:20 BTW, APL is a super duper cool language. I spend a week or so just familiarizing myself with J. Very impressive. 18:45:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-200.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:12 I'm off to the store which closes at 4 (neighborhood store) I should be back online procrastinating later :-) Ciao for now. 18:47:47 J: APL for wimps 18:51:34 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:51:49 rotty, I don't think disabling SYNTACTIC-ERROR-IF-NOT-NAME is right. SYNTACTIC-ERROR-IF-NOT-BVL already doesn't do anything, so you shouldn't need to disable anything. 18:52:18 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 18:52:34 rotty, oh, sorry, I see. Well, you still shouldn't redefine SYNTACTIC-ERROR-IF-NOT-NAME -- just omit it in some places. 18:53:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:07 rotty, the reason that you don't want to disable it entirely is that loop variables must still be variables. The others (entry variables, body variables, &c.) can be patterns, but loop variables can't be. 18:54:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:56:32 Riastradh: I see 19:07:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:10:08 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:17:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:54 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:20:26 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:21:49 Well, I suppose I had better write up more about my C FFI. 19:22:40 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:22 Indeed you had, if you want to keep the lynch mob from your door. 19:24:07 Well, I met the dratted offby1, extracting his real name as a precaution first. I interrogated him, stripped him of all the useful information he knows, and sent him on his way with an injunction to sin no more. 19:24:08 Lynch mob? Yikes. Am I doing something so wrong? 19:24:21 Probably not, but you know the power of rumors. 19:24:28 Your best defense is full disclosure. 19:24:57 kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:25:10 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:32 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:30:23 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:39 J: APL for folks without funky keyboards 19:30:45 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:36:20 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #scheme 19:36:35 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:48 Ignore - test 19:36:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:40:18 Summermute: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/for.html 19:40:37 I have a question about how modern scheme interpreters/compilers store environments. 19:41:02 Is the simple tree structure described in SICP used, or something more optimised? 19:41:11 seamus_android: Why does it matter? 19:41:49 I'm just curious about how they work. I've implemented a simple scheme as described in SICP, and I'm just playing with its implementation 19:42:51 SICP describes a very simplified world; "real" implementations do much more. The bottom line is that as an end user, it doesn't matter beyond a system that satisfies your speed needs. 19:43:44 That's one reason why I don't like the division between interpreter and compiler you get in so many languages 19:44:31 And I'm started to get interested in the details of compiler/interpreter implementation 19:44:56 I used to be interested in that stuff, but then I realized it would be a graduation requirement. 19:45:52 seamus_android: That division is almost completely bogus. If you want to implement a scheme, then you need to know the usual kind of material in the area. Scheme is not much different than many other functional languages. 19:45:56 s/s// 19:46:18 Where's the best place to get an introduction to that kind of thing? is there a standard text I can work from? 19:46:31 Aho!!1 19:46:57 Scheme is different in that procedural macros introduce issues that don't exist in other functional languages. 19:47:08 If you want pedagogical introductory material, the book _Essentials of Programming Languages_ is rather nice, if you ignore the cruft about parsing -- or at least, the first edition was. 19:47:23 chandler, for static compilation, you mean? 19:47:34 For the semantics of programs, Jafet. 19:47:57 That sounds unhelpfully broad, Riastradh 19:48:11 It affects all programs that reason about Scheme programs. 19:48:42 Actually, I believe that the second edition of EoPL deemphasized parsing. 19:48:48 samth_away: some material by Andrew Appel might be useful. 19:48:48 This includes batch compilers, REPLs, cross-referencing analyzers, the Scheme programs themselves, &c. 19:48:55 Ok. I still can't see the issues, though 19:49:01 chandler: No, that's not making anything re compilation any different. 19:49:47 If anything, it simplifies compilation, since you can have a lower level language to work on, and fill in the rest using macros. 19:49:59 s/simplifies/can simplify/ 19:51:39 It simplifies making an implementation, in those cases where all you need is an implementation 19:52:03 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:52:06 eli, to be precise: it simplifies part of the compilation process, but not building a complete implementation. 19:52:18 Riastradh: Yes, of course. 19:52:37 IIUC, the original issue was in regards to compilation. 19:52:55 For most, "compilation" refers to everything in the black box between textual source and actual running code. Macroexpansion does introduce issues here that are not found in a "usual" language (which we frequently discuss), and also provides "opportunities" for the behavior of compiled and interpreted programs to differ noticeably. 19:52:55 Jafet: That sentence had no information. 19:52:56 Maybe we could ask the original questioner what he was asking about! 19:54:04 I can only work from the content of the questions that were asked, and they were about how environments are represented efficiently. 19:54:20 I was interested in the details of how evaluators implement their data structures 19:55:27 I've been playing with the version from SICP, and recognise that it is simplistic and there must be many optimisations used in real, modern implementations. 19:57:26 seamus_android, in the SICP evaluator, you create an object for an environment frame at every procedure application to hold the arguments. In most practical systems, at the very least, the arguments are stored in some temporary location, such as a stack or registers, until it is necessary to allocate an environment frame, such as when evaluating a nested subexpression (which needs a continuation) or evaluating an escaping LAMBDA 19:57:47 (I'm not sure if that was cut off at "escaping LAMBDA" or not.) 19:57:58 ...an escapign LAMBDA (which needs a closure). 19:58:01 Escaping,e ven. 19:58:03 Gah. 19:58:06 Even, even! 19:58:34 Odd. 19:58:40 chandler, there is an easy heuristic: did the sentence end with a full stop? If not, it was truncated, either by my fingers too eagerly hitting ^J or RET, or by the IRC server. 19:59:15 If the only thing truncated was a full stop, it wouldn't have been worth pointing out. 19:59:20 It was cut off. at at the D in LAMBDA. 19:59:38 For me at least 19:59:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:49 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:05:49 Is 'Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools' worth reading? I keep hearing it recommended. 20:07:44 eli: Not to be o'er critical, but the for/ docs are pretty opaque. I found the SRFI 42 docs an easier read, oddly enough 20:08:28 Summermute: Were you reading the Guide or the reference documentation? 20:08:38 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:08:45 seamus_android, half of it is focussed on irrelevant subjects (lexing and parsing), and the other half is pretty much just for languages that lack LAMBDA. 20:09:31 seamus_android: It's typically referred to as the dragon book. I would not recommend it personally; I think there are better texts on both parsing and compilation. 20:09:40 It's also wildly unnecessary to join the two. 20:09:58 Summermute66: In case you missed my question: Were you reading the Guide or the Reference? 20:10:10 seamus_android, the best introduction with which I'm familiar to compilers for strictly evaluated higher-order languages (such as Scheme and SML, but not Haskell), and some of the problems that are involved (even if some of the solutions are a little outdated, and perhaps complicated), is David Kranz's PhD dissertation on Orbit. 20:10:14 I'll avoid it, then. I am only really interested in lisps at the moment. 20:10:47 I'll check 20:10:54 Summermute: Did you look at the URL that I pointer at? 20:11:05 I found the dragon book to be less then satasifcatory. 20:11:12 presumably the ref from the url: file:///C:/Program%20Files/PLT/doc/reference/for.html 20:11:15 The Orbit thesis is good reading. Appel's text is as well (though I seem to have mispalced my copy). 20:11:32 Summermute: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/for.html 20:11:39 Summermute66: See the link at the top right to the Guide? It's got a little hand pointer next to it. 20:12:29 Aha! 20:12:41 Is this PLT proprietary? 20:12:51 ... What? 20:13:24 "PLT proprietary"? 20:13:28 gnomon [n=gnomon@99.231.192.4] has joined #scheme 20:13:32 The facility described in "11 Iterations and Comprehensions" - Is this specific to PLT? 20:14:00 IOW, does this set of functions find themselves into the libs of other schemes? 20:14:06 It is specific to PLT Scheme, and I'm sure the code and documentation are copyrighted by the PLT Scheme project, but it's not proprietary software... 20:14:24 (Copyrighted with liberal licences, that is.) 20:14:34 Gotcha 20:14:57 Are these routines considerably more efficient than those in SRFI 42? 20:15:07 Probably. SRFI 42's implementation is pretty terrible. 20:15:26 SET!s all over the place and poor loop structures. 20:15:48 If you want something portable, try . 20:16:06 There is an application of it to `comprehensions' implemented at . 20:16:21 There are some examples in . 20:16:25 Interesting thanks - I like PLT Scheme, but for some reason I have Larceny envy :-) 20:16:33 I think I've realised now that what was bugging me was that the SICP evaluator is very simplistic, and I want to know how real-world implementations are constructed. 20:16:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 I'll chase down a copy of the orbit thesis. Thanks folks for helping. 20:17:27 http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/orbit-thesis.pdf 20:19:00 Someone has probably put foof-loop, and perhaps nested-foof-loop too, into PLaneT, in case you want to use it quickly in PLT Scheme. 20:19:53 Summermute66: How is Larceny related to all of this? 20:20:17 Cool, I found it on the Web; I look on Planet 20:21:54 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:22:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:15 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 20:22:18 I think rotty has also packaged it up as an R6RS library. 20:22:25 Or perhaps arcfide. 20:22:28 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:22:32 Or perhaps both of them have independently. 20:25:40 Riastradh: the latter; mine is at http://github.com/rotty/spells/tree/master/spells/, arcfide's at http://mtn.sacrideo.us/#cvs 20:25:41 I bookmarked it - I've got some work to do, and hopefully I'll read the docs soon. Much thanks. Scheme folk are the best! 20:26:54 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:47 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:29:35 -!- gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:02 Thanks - bookmarked too 20:31:53 While I'm at it, are there any really good tutorials on migrating from r5rS to r6rs??? 20:32:43 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-132-159-211.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:32:50 cky [n=cky@h-98-132-176-58.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:11 ...and there is the seed of an introduction to nested-foof-loop at , by the way, but I don't know when or whether I shall find time to finish it. 20:33:49 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 20:44:25 pluto [n=pluto@c-67-172-180-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:25 -!- 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has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:22 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:24:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:29 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:27:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:01 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-41-97.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:31:03 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:31:34 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 21:32:17 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:59 jao [n=jao@22.Red-213-98-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:30 ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has joined #scheme 21:45:08 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 21:48:17 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:50:05 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 21:50:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:52:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:53:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:05:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:06:33 It seems that someone's having some technical difficulties 22:08:12 Probably a series of netsplits, is all. 22:09:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:15:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:52 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:18:24 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:13 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:53 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:23:57 -!- chturne [n=charles@host86-154-219-125.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:21 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:31:01 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-67.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:31:02 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:09 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@99.231.192.4] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:35:15 klutometis, the technical term for what ASau is connected to is a `nyetwork', and through it to the `internyet'. 22:36:19 jedc [n=jedc@c-67-171-246-227.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:19 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DCB23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:37:20 *jcowan* thinks that Riastradh should rename his /tmp directory to /unfinished. 22:39:41 FareWell [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:42:34 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 22:42:42 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:53:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:57:35 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-132-176-58.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:13 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:11 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 23:02:30 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:02:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:05:03 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:07:09 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 23:07:47 -!- untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has quit ["Reconnecting..."] 23:07:52 untouchable [i=untoucha@dhcp-129-64-166-32.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #scheme 23:14:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:20:44 seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.20] has joined #scheme 23:23:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:25:07 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:29:29 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:34:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:34:41 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:37:02 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:37:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:39:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:43:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:44:06 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:50:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:53:21 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:53:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:55:45 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:59:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme