00:01:35 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:05:41 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-225.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:30 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.224.51] has joined #scheme 00:11:42 arcfide: poing! 00:12:52 nothere, syntax-case 00:14:26 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:03 -!- mabes [n=mabes@166.70.220.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:04 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 00:18:01 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:19:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 00:20:25 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wyhzioifekoioeyg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:16 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:26:42 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 00:28:37 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:30:26 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:56 mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:34:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:13 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:58 xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has joined #scheme 00:56:28 Riastradh: Boink. 00:59:07 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:32 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:29 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-207-185.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:26:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:23 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 01:29:38 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:30:42 Riastradh: I'm going AFK again, so send me an email. 01:33:45 arcfide, where is the Monotone repository? The Descot web site doesn't appear to have any link to it. 01:35:08 -!- neilv2 [n=nvandyke@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has left #scheme 01:38:28 mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has joined #scheme 01:39:08 hi there i'm looking for the identity function, is it predefined? 01:39:41 background: i have a sequence of boolean values and i'd like to count the #t elements 01:40:26 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 01:40:49 sorry, a vector, not a sequence 01:41:09 Sure, it's spelled (-L-A-M-B-D-A-space-(-X-)-space-X-). 01:41:26 you mean it's not predefined? 01:41:29 rudybot_: (#%require srfi/1) 01:41:29 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot_: help". 01:41:36 rudybot_: eval (#%require srfi/1) 01:41:47 rudybot_: eval (count values '(#f #t #t #f #f)) 01:41:48 chandler: error: count: expected argument of type ; given {#f #t #t #f #f} 01:42:11 Well, that's a new one. 01:42:53 mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has joined #scheme 01:43:03 chandler: that's what i'm trying to do, using the identity function where you wrote 'values' 01:43:04 mm_freak: It's spelled `values', provided that you treat it as a monadic function. 01:43:22 rudybot_: init scheme 01:43:22 Usually we say `unary', so that nobody is scared into thinking that we have Haskell on the mind. 01:43:23 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:43:53 yeah, i was just like: "monadic? monads in scheme?!" 01:44:06 You say tomato; I say UNTYPED HEATHEN. Erm... 01:44:13 rudybot_: eval (require srfi/1) 01:44:14 chandler, count is a primitive scheme procedure? 01:44:24 rudybot_: (count values '(#f #t #t #f #f)) 01:44:24 chandler: eh? Try "rudybot_: help". 01:44:28 rudybot_: eval (count values '(#f #t #t #f #f)) 01:44:28 chandler: ; Value: 2 01:44:38 emma: Note the (require srfi/1) 01:44:47 No, it's not, emma. 01:47:00 R6RS has a standard library? 01:47:24 Did the major scheme implementations ultimately get behind R6RS or not? 01:47:40 About three did. The rest didn't. 01:47:46 ...for some value of `behind'. 01:47:54 hm, that doesn't sound so good. 01:47:57 On the other hand, there are several new R6RS-only implementations. 01:48:25 so in a way really people are still using R5RS 01:49:25 Except for those people using R6RS, and those still using R4RS, and those using dialects of Scheme not documented by any Report, sure. 01:49:37 hm. 01:50:05 I wish there were a happy way to consolidate Scheme and make it more of a focused effort. 01:50:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:33 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 01:51:51 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:04 maybe R7RS will fix things. 01:52:10 The more the Committee tightens its grip, the more users will slip through its fingers. 01:52:21 yeah 01:52:42 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:04 rudybot_: ghost rudybot 01:53:07 rudybot_: nick rudybot 01:53:07 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 01:54:19 chandler, probably the way to do it then is with some sort of library that works on all the major implementations 01:54:21 is that possible? 01:54:53 Anything. In some sense, the library you're describing already exists. Hardly anyone uses it. 01:54:56 It's called SLIB. 01:55:02 *offby1* laughs cruelly 01:55:06 "all the major implementations" 01:55:33 yeah what are those? PLT, MIT, chicken, 01:55:41 any others that are relevant? 01:56:11 Gambit, Gauche, Ikarus, Ypsilon, Scheme48, Larceny, Chez 01:56:15 What am I missing? 01:56:29 I've heard of Gambit and Scheme48 01:56:36 On occasion someone here mentions Chez 01:56:42 That would be arcfide. 01:56:58 The rest might not be relevant. It's okay to leave some behind if they don't want to be part of a grand unified scheme 01:56:58 Or the rest of us, when mocking its totally broken phasing behavior. 01:57:41 Is what you've heard of the definition of relevancy? 01:58:01 I've left out a number of Scheme systems from that list which I've heard of, but don't consider to be terribly relevant to me. 01:58:36 And why does it matter whether there's a Grand Unified Scheme or not? 01:58:53 chandler, well (1) in a way yes, certainly for me it is, but more objectively speaking (2) If I have heard of it, that's not just some coincidence. It is like whether or not someone in Europe knows an American city. There's a reason that they all know NYC and LA and most don't know Scranton. 02:00:52 A grand unified scheme is not like intrinsically good. That's why it's fine and probably good if some aren't part of it. But it does have comparative advantages in terms of creating a larger attention economy around Scheme. More people using Scheme and being interested in Scheme helps to create value for everyone else using Scheme now. 02:02:03 I don't think it's particularly necessary for that. Obviously, it's possible to get quite a lot of attention without multiple implementations: witness Perl and PHP. 02:02:30 those are not examples to support your case, those are examples to support my case. 02:02:33 I'd rather people spend time writing code than arguing about a grand unified language. 02:02:41 http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=10800#a10800 02:02:50 any way to optimize this? 02:03:06 it runs about 8x slower than the equivalent haskell code 02:03:20 (using mzscheme, that is) 02:03:26 PHP and Perl get a lot of attention because there is effectively one php and one perl, and therefor lots of collective energy gets spent adding to the wealth of those languages, and then a whole community gains from the individual work of others. 02:03:36 mm_freak: Get rid of the `vector->list' for starters. 02:03:42 That's why a Grand Unified Scheme would be good. 02:04:17 emma: I don't think your conclusion is supported by your premise. The conclusion that is supported is: "That's why One Canonical Scheme would be good." 02:04:33 So as not to hijack the name Scheme, let's just call it PLT for the sake of argument. 02:05:04 mm_freak: Oh, and it'll go at *least* 20% faster if you use lisppaste and not this lazy clone :-) 02:05:36 Yes well since there are many implementations I thought one way to have a defacto Canonical Scheme would be to have some Grand Unified Scheme where the major (and relevant) implementations could use that common library, and sketch out the common core language, and then that's the canonical Scheme 02:06:30 If that were easy, or even plausible, it would have been done. R6RS was an attempt in earnest at that; it obviously has not set the Scheme community on fire. 02:07:58 chandler: getting rid of the vector->list made it two times as fast 02:08:08 however, i didn't understand your second suggestion ;) 02:08:20 Nevermind; it was unserious. 02:08:30 btw, i used a box to count the number of primes 02:08:32 to me it seems like someone who's not concerned about vendor lock in should be able to use whatever implementation specif features make their life easier, but it ought to be possible to write 'pure Scheme' on any (major or relevant) implementation that will run on any other implementation even if it is perhaps harder. 02:08:38 this feels incorrect 02:08:43 any better way? 02:09:03 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:09:04 I'm not sure what you mean by a box. 02:09:54 emma: It's all well and good in theory. In practice, people don't seem to care about vendor lock in. Witness Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby, Java, etc. Some of those have other implementations, but those were developed after the original became popular, and are just clones of the original that are in a condiment game of ketchup. 02:10:00 Er, constant game of catch-up. 02:10:13 chandler: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=10800#a10801 02:11:25 Then it sounds like the only real choice is to pick some Scheme (probably PLT) and make it so much better than all the others that it is the lone relevant Scheme 02:11:30 mm_freak: No, that's not the right way to do it. 02:12:07 mm_freak: You should probably just make this a function that returns the number of primes. 02:12:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:14 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:12:22 PLT should just change it's name to Scheme and stop even acknowledging any of the other implementations exist. 02:12:31 chandler: sure, but what about the counting? 02:12:36 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:12:40 That would be obnoxious, emma. 02:13:04 They already have declared that their dialect is `scheme'. 02:13:34 It would be sort of Machiavelian but it sounds like someone needs to be ruthless. 02:13:39 chandler: what i mean is: what i'm doing right now is highly imperative 02:13:40 Internally, that's fine (when talking about MIT Scheme with other MIT Scheme developers or users, I just say `Scheme' too), but why would you want it to be externally referred to as Scheme/ 02:13:44 ? 02:13:45 Why must someone be ruthless?? 02:14:12 What's the problem you're trying to solve? What interesting *technical* problems have you solved with Scheme lately, and what interesting technical problems have you been thwarted from solving because PLT Scheme is not just called `Scheme'? 02:14:15 of course the algorithm as such is highly imperative anyway, but i'd at least use a state monad for the counter, of which i haven't found an equivalent in scheme yet 02:14:25 emma, I prefer to follow the sage advice of the philosophers Bill & Ted: "Be awesome to one another." 02:15:20 I want there to be a Scheme language the way there is a Python language. And I don't care how that is accomplished. It's not a bad thing that other implementations exist but why should they be diluting and holding each other back? 02:16:28 emma, I don't know whether you were addressing me with your last message, but, in case it wasn't clear, I meant to address my last couple lines of questions to you. 02:17:46 Riastradh, well as a new person interested in programming languages, I have not solved any serious technical problems, but as someone new I want to be part of something thriving which has a future. 02:18:13 emma, so subscribe to the PLT Scheme mailing list and enjoy discussing its thriving future. 02:18:16 chandler pasted "A partial conversion of the program into tail-recursive style" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88718 02:18:21 mm_freak: Have a look at that. 02:18:31 emma, that doesn't remotely answer any of the questions I asked, though, except for the one about what interesting technical problems you've solved recently. 02:19:41 Riastradh, well I don't really have some kind of dogmatic attachment to PLT. Except it's what I've been using to learn Scheme. And it seems to be out in front as far as promoting Scheme. 02:20:15 emma, so go ahead! Use that! Why are you asking people to be ruthless and demand the name Scheme from one another and become a Grand Unified Scheme in exclusion of all other Schemes and so on? 02:20:16 You seem to be hung up on terminology. Just replace unprefixed "Scheme" with "PLT Scheme" mentally, and be happy. 02:20:18 Riastradh, is MIT scheme more like the original or orthodox scheme? 02:20:23 chandler: understood, thanks 02:20:32 Orthodox Scheme? What is this, a schismatic religion? 02:20:43 i'll try to write it myself, though, with the limited set of constructs i know already =) 02:20:44 Riastradh, yes it does seem very much like that actually. 02:20:59 Well, good grief! I don't know who gave you that idea, but please rid yourself of it. 02:21:00 mm_freak: Hm? 02:21:06 seamus_ [n=alistair@212.183.134.211] has joined #scheme 02:21:12 the implementations do the same harm that schisms do. Distracting people and diverting energy and resources. 02:21:15 mm_freak: All I did was to change the outer `for' into a named `let'. 02:21:36 That is not a priori true, emma. 02:21:59 If you want to claim that harm has been done, you had better be pretty ready to bring forth some specific, concrete examples of harm. 02:22:09 Look at how it is for people who are learning python. There is really one Python, therefor everyone who does stuff with Python before them makes it a good thing to learn, and whatever they do, benefits everyone else. Does that ever happen in Scheme and if not, why not? 02:23:28 You seem to believe that resources should be spent on the things that you would benefit from most. But the implementors and users of various Scheme systems are using their time and energy in the way that pleases them, not you. 02:24:56 My suggestion to you is to pick the dialect of Scheme that pleases you most and start using it. If enough other people also use it, then then there will be a large group of people using it, and you will (possibly) be happy. 02:25:54 Python is designed to be a static language devoid of evolution, devoid of innovation: there is supposed to be precisely one way to do it, for any given task. 02:26:31 Scheme is a toolkit for building languages, and it is a flexible vehicle for experimenting with ideas in programming language design and implementation. 02:26:33 (It's not a "static language" in the usual meaning of the term, though.) 02:27:10 If Scheme were fixed like Python, it would lose all its value as a toolkit for building languages and for experimenting with ideas in programming language design and implementation. 02:27:28 Riastradh, okay well i would not like that to happen. 02:28:27 I don't think there's been as much innovation within individual implementations as you suggest. The variety of Scheme implementations is what drives innovation more than change within individual implementations, in my opinion. 02:28:54 (As who suggests?) 02:28:54 Emma: You assume that there is only a single 'ideal' scheme, when their are many different styles of programming that all require different functionality from an implementation. 02:29:05 Riastradh: Sorry, that was "you" you. 02:29:35 chandler: i did it differently 02:29:38 It's entirely possible for any one implementation of Scheme to be as conservative as Python is. 02:29:52 Hmm? When did I suggest that most innovation has been within individual implementations? 02:30:24 chandler: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=10800#a10802 02:30:30 makes me feel much better 02:30:40 but doesn't improve performance significantly 02:30:50 Riastradh: In suggesting that there is an important difference between Python's conservatism and the Scheme philosophy; perhaps I misunderstood. 02:31:43 mm_freak: I wouldn't have expected it to, but it's a lot closer to usual Scheme style now. You'll probably have to ask a PLT implementation wizard what it would take to optimize this further. 02:32:28 chandler: the comparison is probably a bit unfair, as i'm comparing it to compiled haskell code 02:32:30 I have a career already and I dont need to know how to program. So when I learn stuff about programming languages it's not in order to gain marketable skills or really do anything practical. So for me, one of the things I value in a language, is if it is sexy. 02:32:47 I don't think I said anything about individual implementations. There were two parts to my contrasting of Scheme with Python: one, that Scheme is a toolkit for its users to build languages atop it to solve their problems more clearly; two, that the Scheme language is useful for experimentation in language design and implementation, by changing the language and implementing it differently. 02:33:00 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:00 emma: about 5,000 geeky guys are now going to show up at your doorstep 02:33:12 :D awesome 02:33:38 but they're geeky! 02:33:46 good earners, but socially inept. 02:33:48 mm_freak: PLT does have a JIT, for what it's worth. But I'm not really knowledgeable about PLT performance beyond the "good enough" level. 02:33:52 i like geeky guys or i wouldn't be a scheme groupie :) 02:34:06 ok, thanks 02:34:24 lisps are much more sexy than normal programming languages. That's one reason I want to learn it. 02:34:52 sexpy 02:34:57 If you tell someone you learned java or something you are just one of many people but if you learn a lisp then you did something special. 02:35:01 I'm sure a speech therapist could help you with that, though they might not understand why. 02:35:10 hehe 02:35:15 emma: if you want to be really special, learn unlambda 02:35:29 same expressiveness, but without a single parenthesis =) 02:35:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:35:59 No, same computational power. 02:36:13 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:36:17 scheme appears to be very useful, much more useful to me than CL, practically i mean 02:36:29 Riastradh: I suppose the mismatch between what you're saying and my mental model is that I don't think of Python as a language in the same sense that Scheme is. In order to make comparative statements about Python and Scheme, either Python has to be upgraded incorrectly to a language, or Scheme has to be specialized to a particular implementation. 02:36:48 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.134.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:51 Riastradh: unlambda is quite expressive, it's just that you need to write control constructs from scratch and repeat a lot of code =) 02:37:16 That's pretty much the definition of a poorly expressive language. 02:37:20 Named binding is inexpressible in Unlambda. 02:37:54 well, at least it's more interesting than brainfuck 02:38:19 mm_freak: If GHC-like performance is your goal, perhaps Common Lisp would actually be useful to you. You can wring quite a lot out of SBCL. 02:38:38 chandler: i tried to work with CL and i hated it 02:38:41 i'm a functional programmer 02:40:07 likely my main language will still be haskell, but scheme seems to be better for certain uses, for example to quickly write a little tool script or for web programming 02:40:15 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:20 SBCL is _really_ fast, in my limited experience 02:41:20 mm_freak: Fair enough. If you have a low tolerance for mold-encrusted languages, CL is not for you. 02:41:33 *offby1* likes mold, at least on blue cheese 02:42:15 Mmmm, Cambozola. 02:42:42 chandler: i thought that C/C++ header files are pure evil directly from hell, but lisp's "modularity" is even worse 02:42:56 sorry, CL's 02:42:57 Riastradh: ooh! you know Cambozola?! I _love_ that. All-time fave. Try it on challah 02:43:14 of course there is ASDF, but it didn't really help for me 02:44:41 offby1, that sounds like a brilliant idea, there. 02:45:06 I especially like a nice strong Roquefort on rye bread with a bit of Woodford Reserve, and maybe a nice cold Honeycrisp apple... 02:45:38 Hmm. I have a bit of aged Mahon in the refrigerator. I think it is getting lonely; perhaps I shall grant it some company. 02:46:09 *gnomon* ponders a "Cheese drawers and liquor cabinets of #scheme" series of articles 02:46:17 *offby1* creates the mailing list 02:46:30 good thing i read further before making a cheese joke 02:46:32 *gnomon* posts the first trolling message 02:46:54 "i liike amercan cheeze luls" 02:47:20 American Cheese caused the Holcaust!! 02:47:28 *offby1* wins the Godwin's Law Contest 02:47:31 i'll have that philly steak whiz wit 02:47:31 misspelled, too 02:47:39 I deny that! 02:47:40 *offby1* high-fives zbigniew 02:48:32 foof [n=user@FL1-118-110-45-189.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 02:48:46 *zbigniew* accepts your numbers gratefully 02:49:55 Well, American cheese is pretty gross. I could believe that it depressed enough people to cause the Great Depression, which spread into Europe and caused World War II! Argh! Now I hate Kraft even more! Graaah! 02:49:57 I'm in NYC at the moment but was tempted by a sign for cheese steaks today 02:50:13 and you know Kraft is German 02:50:16 I'm just sayin' 02:52:41 Kraft originated in Canada from someone of German descent, it's not particularly German otherwise. It's now pretty much American. 02:52:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:49 tjaway [n=timj@e176194072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:52:53 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #scheme 02:54:18 well, they all taste the same anyway, be it kraft, heinz or gut und günstig 02:57:10 Speaking of cheese, the Wikiu 02:57:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:33 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 02:58:04 *Wikipedia article on PLT Scheme hasn't improved in the past 6 months. 03:00:01 is guile actually a scheme interpreter? 03:04:49 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:06:55 mm_freak, wingo is the best person to answer that. In short, historically, yes; but it's getting better. 03:07:10 "better"? 03:07:23 being a scheme interpreter is bad? 03:07:34 mm_freak, http://wingolog.org/tags/guile 03:08:34 mm_freak, being a Scheme interpreter isn't bad per se, but it tends to lead to slow execution times, unexciting extension features, and bad design decisions. 03:08:53 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176193140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:23 mm_freak, what's worse, writing a [halfway decent] compiler is not actually that much more difficult than an [acceptably decent] interpreter. 03:10:24 hey, my brother is a Scheme interpreter 03:10:37 I'm sure he's a fine, fit fellow. 03:11:25 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:11:39 gnomon: you mean it's getting better in that it approaches being a compiler? 03:12:10 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.164.152] has joined #scheme 03:13:03 mm_freak, I mean that it is getting better, and that it the Scheme portion of Guile has had a compiler retrofitted atop it. 03:13:10 See http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/07/26/the-good-hack for more details about that. 03:13:47 i'm reading his history of guile 03:14:19 The whole compiled vs. interpreted language issue is basically meaningless as long as you support modules. 03:14:42 but my actual question was: is guile compliant or will it explode on some scheme code? 03:14:48 That's a pretty sweeping statement there, karlw. 03:15:16 mm_freak, oh, it'll explode on some stuff, but then that criticism can be applied to most Scheme implementations. Guile is getting better. 03:15:20 karlw: "compiled vs. interpreted language" is really meaningless 03:15:27 languages are not compiled or interpreted 03:15:30 implementations are 03:16:14 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:41 Even that's not correct, in the context of a JIT compiler, or even a profile-driven optimizer. 03:17:08 And there's nothing stopping a Scheme compiler from targetting an interpreted virtual machine, for example. 03:17:37 Everyone tells me horror stories about incremental compilation. 03:18:02 sure, but compilation is compilation, be it to byte code or native machine code 03:18:20 that's why i'd call most sophisticated "interpreted" implementations compilers 03:19:43 I mean that it's possible to perform more static optimization on a ``module'' 03:20:04 mm_freak, fair point. If you'll allow, I'll rephrase my point: Scheme systems described by authors as "interpreters" tend to indicate a mindset which leads to poor implementation decisions. 03:21:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:10 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:21:54 gnomon: but consider that many people call interpreters, what are actually compilers, even authors 03:22:12 particularly open source authors are often not good at promoting stuff =) 03:23:33 "what are you working on?"  "a fast scheme interpreter with $GREAT_NERD_FEATURE_X" 03:24:15 There's no problem with incrementally compiling or ``interpreting,'' say, what the user types at the REPL. You just don't want to treat *everything* as dynamic incrementally compiled code. That's what module systems are for, at least partially. 03:25:15 karlw, right, since sealing off a module and naming the exports opens up entire classes of clever/evil optimizations. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you there :) 03:25:23 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.69.39.114] has quit [] 03:28:46 -!- seamus_ [n=alistair@212.183.134.211] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:29:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:17 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:33:15 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:34:20 seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.134.210] has joined #scheme 03:40:23 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:41:14 chylli [n=lchangyi@218.58.180.26] has joined #scheme 03:44:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:07 is there a macro that can do things like this (map (lambda (a b) (set! a b)) l1 l2) 03:44:24 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:45:12 I want to assign the values in l2 to the corresponding symbols in l1 03:45:14 Using PAIR-FOR-EACH from SRFI 1, one can write: (pair-for-each (lambda (a b) (set-car! a (car b))) l1 l2) 03:45:32 geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:49 thanks very much 03:47:56 Riastradh: I want a macro to extract every values to variables. so I think pair-for-each is not what I want. 03:48:19 What do you mean by `extract every values to variables'? 03:48:33 No, better yet, let's take a step back. What problem are you trying to solve, of which you believe this to be a subproblem? 03:48:52 I think I guessed wrong that you were trying to move the contents of one list destructively into another list. 03:49:04 Okay, so I have a line parser callback. with-output-to-file somewhere I define this callback and pass it to the next loop. Each time the loop calls the callback, it returns to that continuation where it decodes and writes the next line to the file. 03:49:54 So when I'm finished writing, I need to either continue to search for useful lines, or stop entirely, but either way I need to be outside of this file parameterization. 03:50:25 Do I just... pass a lambda that doesn't close over the file pointer? That wouldn't leave the dynamic extent though... 03:50:43 Riastradh: I'm using guile's scm_c_make_gsubr, but I got an error ERROR in scm_c_make_gsubr: too many args (11) to make-wibox 03:50:52 *Riastradh* blinks. 03:51:01 Because if someone has 5 attachment sort of things, that'd mean I'd leave the first 4 outputs hanging open while I wrote the fifth... not pretty. 03:51:01 I think we may have stepped back just a trifle too far, chylli. 03:51:19 Riastradh: so I want to pack all args to a list, then extract them from list to variables. 03:52:00 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:52:16 meh I get the impression I'm doing this horribly wrong... 03:53:13 chylli, so you have a list, say (3 1 4 1 5 9 2 6 5 3 5 8 9 7 9), and you want to bind variables A, B, C, D, E, &c., to have values of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, &c., elements of the lis? A simple way to do that is (APPLY (LAMBDA (X Y Z P Q R A B C . REST) ...) ), although it is usually somewhat better to use a more appropriate pattern matching notation such as . 03:53:24 `Elements of the list', even. 03:56:53 Riastradh: thanks. but in c program I can't call apply easily like in scheme. 03:57:11 chylli, sorry, you've lost me in the transition between Scheme and C. 03:57:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:13 -!- seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.134.210] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:30 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:57:30 Maybe we can take another step back, and you can tell me what you are trying to do with C and Scheme? 03:57:32 Riastradh: let me look for a better way. I don't know why guile has that limit. 03:58:05 Riastradh: 03:58:23 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 03:58:49 Riastradh: ok. I just want to do some things to initialize a C structs in the C 03:59:05 Riastradh: but it need 11 or more args. 03:59:25 Riastradh: the C function will be called in the scheme code. 04:00:19 Riastradh: like this : in c function: SCM funtion1 (SCM arg1 , arg2 ..... arg12); 04:00:37 Riastradh: it will be called in scm: (function1 1 2 3 4 ...12) 04:00:56 OK... 04:01:07 Riastradh: but there is a arg number limit when register function1 as a scm function. 04:01:21 Riastradh: in Guile 1.8.7 it is 10 04:01:21 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:01:33 Riastradh: in the most latest guile it is 33. 04:01:45 but I want to use guile 1.8.7. 04:01:59 I see. So you want to get around this by passing FUNCTION1 a single argument that is a list containig the real arguments, rather than a lot of arguments? 04:02:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:04 Riastradh: so I want to look for a way to transfer 12 args into function1. 04:02:06 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:02:13 Riastradh: right. 04:02:34 Riastradh: I'm not very good at guile in the c. so I look for a help here. 04:02:37 So just use (function1 (list 1 2 4 5 ... 12))? 04:02:47 Riastradh: right. 04:03:33 Riastradh: maybe my best choice is to upgrade guile to 1.9.x, but I still want to try in 1.8.7 04:03:54 Am I missing something, or does (function1 (list 1 2 3 4 5 ... 12)) do what you want? 04:04:35 Riastradh: my trouble is, how to extract (list 1 2 3 4 .. 12 ) to C variables. 04:04:53 Doesn't Guile provide scm_car and scm_cdr or something? 04:05:01 geckosen1tor [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:01 (It may be more convenient to use a vector, incidentally.) 04:05:09 Riastradh: I can to this like int arg1 = scm_to_int(scm_c_car(arglist)); 04:05:39 Riastradh: but that is too ugly . yes, they have. 04:06:02 Riastradh: good, let me try it. 04:06:19 Riastradh: thanks for you advice. 04:06:50 All that a vector would enable is scm_c_vector_ref(argv, k) rather than scm_c_car(scm_c_cdr(......(scm_c_cdr(arglist))...)), assuming that there is some scm_c_vector_ref. 04:06:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:57 Is that still too ugly? 04:07:14 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:07:46 Riastradh: thanks. 04:08:17 Man, I've been having to deal with MSBuild at work, something like that written in Scheme would be really nice 04:12:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:55 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #scheme 04:13:23 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:51 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:21:47 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:23:31 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:16 -!- mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has quit [] 04:29:49 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:53 xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has joined #scheme 04:30:05 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:32:47 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has left #scheme 04:33:00 `less foo.txt | less' ought to do the right thing! I don't want to change my habit of piping everything into less... 04:34:12 ... it works for me 04:34:47 less should just cat the output when writing to a non-tty 04:35:09 Oh, maybe it does. I just assumed that it wouldn't and killed less anyway and then complained. 04:35:27 (and piping to cat confirms that) 04:36:00 How nice of it to preemptively answer my complaint! 04:41:06 -!- mabes [n=mabes@bmabey.fttp.xmission.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:41:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:10 mm_freak: What is the equivalent Haskel program that you are testing in comparison to your Scheme code? 04:44:47 Riastradh: The monotone server is mtn.sacrideo.us and the branch name is us.sacrideo.descot 04:45:02 Beware though. ;-) 04:45:27 arcfide, can I browse it on the web? 04:45:40 Can it produce tarballs? 04:45:45 (I don't have Monotone installed.) 04:45:52 (I have about six other revision control systems, though...) 04:48:03 Riastradh: I have not set up a web interface to it yet, I'll package up a tarball for you if you want. 04:48:05 Out of curiosity, I pointed my web browser at , and there's a link to `Version Control', but it doesn't do anything. 04:48:35 In fact, none of the links appears to do anything except for that to your blag. 04:48:42 You should probably be using the simple non-JS page. 04:48:54 That is, none of the links in the navigation bar. 04:49:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-76.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:35 Riastradh: They use JavaScript to do some jazz which you won't care about. 04:49:43 The Simple Page is the one you want. 04:49:51 How do I view the simple page, then? 04:50:02 Oh, I see. 04:50:24 I suppose I click on the link titled `Simple Page (Non-JS)'. 04:50:51 Indeed. 04:50:58 (I always parse the abbreviation `JS' as `Johann Sebastian' at first.) 04:51:29 There are one or two things wrong with that prevent me from releasing a full tarball just yet, but the code is mostly in a publishable state right now. 04:51:33 Riastradh: Sorry about that. :-) 04:51:52 s/with that/with the infrastructure that/ 04:51:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:13 If you'd prefer a snapshot copy tarball, that's easy to make. 04:52:41 Sure. 04:52:50 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:52:58 I can think of two additions or changes to the Schema at the moment that I would like to add, but haven't for this first iteration. That would be like a 1.1 release. 04:54:05 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:16 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #scheme 04:54:25 Can you read XZ archives or do you prefer GZ or BZ2? 04:55:46 I don't know what `XZ archives' are. 04:57:24 Riastradh: GZip it is then. 04:57:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ylqqrcn 04:57:30 Let me know if that works. 04:58:22 It appears to have stalled at 192 kilobytes. 04:58:26 I'll try again. 04:58:36 It might take a second. 04:58:48 It has stalled again. 04:58:54 My internet has been a little finicky of late. 04:59:56 A third time it has stalled, again at 192 kilobytes. 05:00:06 I have sent you an email with it attached. 05:01:02 Oh, I guess I could have tried DCC, that would have been fun. 05:01:11 Ha. I got it by email, thanks. 05:01:24 I switched out my router just today and I'm still not sure what things are working and what aren't. 05:01:37 So how do I load it up? 05:01:53 *coughs* 05:02:38 For your purposes, a look at Schema.ttl should suffice, along with the srdf code. 05:03:28 There appear to be six Scheme source files in there, which seem to have to do with web pages. 05:03:35 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has joined #scheme 05:03:55 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 05:04:25 Obviously I'm looking at the wrong things, but what should I be looking at? 05:04:38 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 05:04:43 The code is divided into a number of modules which represent different components of the system. The Web pages and Web Client are in there as well as utility libraries for handling RDF stores of Descot metadata. 05:05:33 If you're interested in using Descot for meta-information only in packaging, you'll want to examine the Schema file, which defines more or less the properties and classes available, and the srdf.nw file, which is the noweb source for the SRDF parser. 05:06:26 The paper from the Scheme workshop is in doc/scm_wkshp_09, and contains an overview of the system. 05:07:32 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:08:10 If you have noweb installed, and everything is configured the way I have it configured, running "make docs" will compile a full source code level documentation of the system into the doc/tech folder, wherein you can run "make descot_techdoc.dvi" to get a printable/viewable version. 05:08:40 I don't have a ToC or any hyperlinks setup for that document though, so it's a bit of a read. 05:13:29 What if I want to read or run the source code? 05:13:29 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:57 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:15:18 Riastradh: You'd want to have noweb installed, and then run "make srdf.sls" or "make srdf.ss". I haven't put in the .scm file description in the noweb file yet. 05:15:52 If you want to run everything, "make" will generate the known source files. 05:16:10 Sorry, source code/runnable/loadable files. 05:16:23 I see. Can you send me the output of that? 05:16:32 Sure. 05:19:50 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-135-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:20:15 Just a general remark about all this: Although I think that you are starting with a good idea, the presentation (with RDF and noweb and whatnot) is rather alien to most of the Scheme world, and from what I can see of the code, a good deal of it uses Chez-specific extensions. 05:20:42 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:21:36 Riastradh: At the moment, much of it is R6RS. 05:22:14 Riastradh: Those are some of the reasons it A) Remains in Beta, B) is not published yet. 05:22:15 Whatever your predilection toward literate programming may be, if you want to encourage the use of Descot throughout the Scheme world as your design documents seem to indicate, it behooves you to make this more accessible and more portable. 05:23:04 Yes. when its ready to be packaged, one package will contain just the generated sources in R6RS Libraries, Chez Modules, and Vanilla Scheme files. 05:23:21 Check your email for the code. 05:23:23 (And I'm sure there are many Schemers who would really need a strong justification for the use of RDF to solve some clear problems, rather than having the solutions to problems obscured in a lot of code that deals with RDF.) 05:23:57 (This is not to say that RDF is a bad thing or anything -- but it looks like this code is a lot more oriented toward talking about RDF than toward talking about Scheme code.) 05:24:20 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:24:33 Indeed. This is discussed in the paper, but basically, it's a standard that already exists for doing this sort of thing, and it allows me to focus on writing the useful parts, rather than trying to formalize extensions and behavior, and also allows me to use existing tools for RDF. 05:25:43 The code is quite barebones at the moment, dealing with the first level of libraries that are really more of a benefit to tool implementors than for end-users. 05:25:51 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["brb"] 05:25:58 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 05:26:26 Most programmers using this system, in fact, will probably not have to use much of this code at all. 05:26:37 Can you procure an example of how I might use this to organize my programs, and then how I might write meta-programs to read in and reason about (the organization of) my newly written object-programs? 05:27:10 In the regress directory and the paper is an example store of data about one library. 05:27:36 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:28:12 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:28:14 I can try to get a meta-program up some time for you. It's really just querying the RDF store for the data you want about a given library. Namely, the imports, exports, and locations. 05:29:02 The example is a bit verbose because I use it to test things. Another thing that a little extra sugar would greatly help. 05:29:29 OK. General remark about SRDF: Non-alphabetic symbols are concise and all, and I can guess the meanings of some of them by analogy with Turtle (e.g., : is presumably for qnames, and (^ "text" datatype-uri) presumably corresponds with "text"^^datatype-uri), but meaningful names are better. 05:29:48 (or by analogy with N-Triples, or N3, &c.) 05:30:02 Yes, it is really sort of an S-expression Turtle. 05:30:43 When writing my file, I didn't want to write it all out. :-) 05:30:47 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:58 For example, it's a little obscure what's going on here: 05:31:10 ((: dscts "exports") ((: bindings "gc-malloc"))) 05:31:10 ((: dscts "license") (: licenses "public-domain")) 05:31:18 I could be prevailed upon to accept a representation that was equally easy to parse and also more clear. 05:31:46 I'm guessing -- but I'm not sure -- that the first line is like a Turtle collection. 05:32:49 In different contexts, though, the text `((: bindings "gc-malloc"...' begins the predicate/object part of a relation. 05:33:01 Riastradh: There is a BNF grammer describing the format. :-) But yes, that's the basic idea. 05:34:10 -!- Chani [n=chani@twinsen.warpedgames.com] has left #scheme 05:34:17 I only see two places where bindings is used in the sentences. One as a subject, and one as the member of a collection. 05:34:21 Now, it's nice to have RDF point at remote things for the whole Semantic Web concept, but can I put this together with source code, and distribute that as a unit, without reference to external fetchable resources? 05:34:30 arcfide: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=10807#a10807 05:34:54 Riastradh: Yes, the fetchable resources are only necessary if you want this data to be served over a Descot "network." 05:35:05 If you just want to use it as a package system, you're welcome to use whatever namespace you want. 05:35:08 Sure -- in this file it might not ever be used as the predicate of a predicate/object pairing. But the text `((: ' is fairly distinctive, and means something different in different places. 05:35:56 At the top level, it also starts the subject of a collection of triples. 05:36:09 Anyway, this is cosmetic. 05:36:12 I see what you mean. 05:37:03 (I don't know what the RDF term for a predicate/object pairing, without a subject to complete the triple, is called. Usually I'd call that a `predicate', and I'd use the term `relation' for what is called `predicate' in the RDF lingo, but...) 05:37:09 The idea here is that these descriptions can be uploaded directly to a repository, either your own or another, and this library is visible in a nice format to anyone who wants to find it. 05:37:57 Riastradh: The RDF itself is kind of yucky, which is why I tried to make a syntax that was easier for me to work with. 05:39:00 OK. But what I really want is just to use this to organize my code in a way that I can send to someone else to use in code she is writing for her favourite Scheme system; e.g., in PLT Scheme, she might write (require (descot "http://mumble.net/~campbell/descot/scheme-cml#rendezvous")), and Descot would magically make that look like a vanilla PLT Scheme module. Of course, I need to list the bindings provided by, and modules whos 05:39:36 Can you show me an example of what that looks like? 05:39:54 I've not the time for it tonight, but yes, hopefully I can get that to you. 05:40:10 OK. I have to go to bed soon myself. 05:40:11 Do you want the actual transformation, or a sample library description? 05:41:04 Ideally, you wouldn't pass her the link like that, but you would reference an actual RDF resource that points to the library, and the DESCOT protocol would be used to query the information and grab the source, and build the modules. 05:41:43 Much in the way that PLT's PlaneT works, I suppose, but with a public, documented interface. 05:41:51 No, I don't want any protocols or repositories involved in this (at the moment). 05:42:09 Right, I'll see if I can give you a simple example presuming that you don't want to do this at all, ever. 05:42:23 That will make things significantly easier to write. 05:42:36 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:43:15 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 05:43:16 I just want to write some code, write down how it's organized in the Descot language, and send someone a tarball containing my code and a description of its organization, so that the recipient can do what I just described -- include it among her own code, say, and use it from PLT Scheme modules, or Scheme48 modules, or whatnot. Of course, the last part requires writing support specific to PLT Scheme or Scheme48 for Descot -- but 05:43:16 Anyways, I'm going to sign off now. Please do send me your comments for improvement. There is certainly plenty of room for it. 05:43:45 Cutoff at "-- but" 05:44:08 -- but I imagine that that's straightforward, and in fact that's what I wanted to do for Scheme48 when I first asked you to send me some code. 05:44:31 Riastradh: It's fairly straightforward. Let me write up an example for you and see if I can send it to you. 05:45:07 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:42 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:51:56 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:57:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:57:33 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:02:36 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:05:09 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:45 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 06:14:17 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:31 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:14:37 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 06:21:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22:09 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:33:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:45:46 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:47:50 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:41 incubot: "heh" is ennuyeux to the irritable "hah" 06:56:46 I mean, earlier you seemed tired and irritable from all of your long meetings. 07:04:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:53 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:06:13 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.224.51] has left #scheme 07:14:00 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@ip68-111-70-47.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:29 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:42:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:43:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:43:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:58 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #scheme 07:44:05 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:46:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:12 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:54:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:18 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:01:01 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 08:07:21 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:11:31 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 08:16:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:16:56 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:33:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:34:03 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:37:20 any one knows about guile ? 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If i re-evaluate B should i re-evaluate A too to get that into effect? 12:18:32 shyam_k: Try It And See. 12:18:41 yeah doinig that:) 12:18:45 If you were using PLT scheme, I think the answer would be "yes"; but I don't know about others. 12:20:35 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-156-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 12:20:57 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.164.152] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:21:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:23:58 -!- jyujin__ is now known as jyujin 12:24:46 hmm.. its automatically updated if its defined "globally".. silly thing.. brain is not working.. or its not willing to work.. its tough to re gain track after some depression time:( 12:27:34 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-156-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:28:51 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:31:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:44 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:35:30 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 12:37:27 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:37:34 shyam_k, you shouldn't need re-evaluate A if you're at the toplevel. If you're in a PLT module or something else that may inline, you need to. 12:43:39 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 12:46:10 bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has joined #scheme 12:48:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:10 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-156-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:40 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:52:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:52:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-57.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:00:43 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:01:47 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:08 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 13:08:42 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:17 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:18 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 13:19:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:26:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:29:56 seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.17] has joined #scheme 13:30:35 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:32:43 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:44:06 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:58:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:49 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:01:43 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 14:09:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:43 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:12:07 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:12 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:22:58 lolcow [n=lolcow@41.243.13.101] has joined #scheme 14:24:24 i noticed that in PLT scheme the file extension .ss is used 14:24:33 i'm using .scm for my source files 14:24:36 which one is preferred? 14:24:42 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:25:27 Whichever one you prefer. I use .scm. Most PLT and Chez folks seem to use .ss. 14:25:43 thanks 14:25:48 scheme source? 14:25:48 (despite many discussions on the PLT mailing list about the unfortunate acronym SS) 14:25:59 not worse than stalin 14:26:07 hehe 14:26:09 or the invasion of poland by Perl 14:26:46 steele/sussman ;) 14:29:55 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:33:07 -!- xwl [n=user@125.34.171.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:40:40 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:48:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:53:51 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:55:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:46 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:56:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:00:18 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:30 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@41.243.13.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:08:31 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:14:53 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:09 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:25 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:26 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:28:29 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 15:36:51 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:29 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@vpn74.its.manchester.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 15:46:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:47:03 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:50:02 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:50:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:29 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:52:51 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:53:19 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:53 -!- m811 [n=user@180.180.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 16:03:40 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:56 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 16:11:57 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:13:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:40 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:16:39 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:30:24 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-183-180.net.novis.pt] has left #scheme 16:31:47 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:34:11 slom [n=ibook@pD9EB7AB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:50 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 16:35:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:36:34 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #scheme 16:38:12 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@vpn74.its.manchester.ac.uk] has quit [] 16:40:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:45:11 shyam_k pasted "(runtime) function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88742 16:45:43 (runtime) isn't working as expected, though i am using exact copy-pasted code from sicp.. 16:47:46 What did you expect to happen? 16:49:21 well as said in the text, i was expecting it to print the time taken to check prime. 16:50:06 test larger numbers :P 16:50:13 may be its coz its not taking any time:) 16:50:16 hmm:) 16:50:36 Computers have grown considerably faster since SICP was written. The (RUNTIME) procedure may simply not have the resolution you want. 16:50:40 there was this 12 millon digits thing this week ... 16:51:55 2 to the power of 43,112,609, minus 1 16:52:08 HG` [n=HG@89.166.180.153] has joined #scheme 16:55:49 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-13-101.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:05:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nuqdjsjlyjkgbiph] has joined #scheme 17:16:49 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-68.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:19:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:21:40 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:00 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has quit ["leaving"] 17:34:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:37:52 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:45:35 the function report-prime as in that paste is ending on display function which returns nothing. whats the best way to make report-prime return a truth value always? 17:46:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:59 shyam_k: it always returns the value of the last expression 17:47:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:47:45 ook:) 17:47:59 peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:50:35 -!- HG` [n=HG@89.166.180.153] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:21 HG` [n=HG@xdsleu153.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:59:30 eni_ [n=eni@ASt-Lambert-153-1-54-86.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:00:16 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@218.58.180.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:02 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleu153.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:28 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:12 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:21 -!- eni_ is now known as albacker 18:22:02 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:31:28 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:32:38 choas [n=lars@p5B0DCDF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:53 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:37 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:45:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:49:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:51:28 geckosenator [n=sean@67.112.204.194] has joined #scheme 18:51:33 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:25 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:02:26 geckosen1tor [n=sean@67.112.204.194] has joined #scheme 19:05:49 seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.140.55] has joined #scheme 19:06:15 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-aaqqaaarpdrmcqum] has joined #scheme 19:07:54 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@67.112.204.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:17 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-aaqqaaarpdrmcqum] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:23 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-eqpdtbppwxlzqfrk] has joined #scheme 19:19:02 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.215.64] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:24:41 one thing i don't get is, when you use drscheme it asks for a language, but isn't there a standard PLT language? 19:25:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:28 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:26:02 emmy: What version are you using? 19:26:10 (I'm guessing it's 3.x, not 4.x) 19:27:18 4.2.2 19:27:32 Im using the one on windows at the moment since I'm at work. 19:28:18 Don't new buffers start with "#lang scheme"? 19:30:43 Handling foreign resources is hard. I had to make a lot of changes to the file descriptor code I pasted yesterday in order to make it possible for Scheme to cede responsibility (safely) for a file descriptor to someone else, such as stdio with fdopen or OpenSSL with BIO_new_fd. 19:32:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:35:28 Riastradh, your locking is wrong in your file-descriptor library 19:35:36 What's wrong? 19:35:47 to not leak in case of interrupt, you need to lock around the call to open 19:35:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:36:01 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.64] has joined #scheme 19:36:12 `open'? 19:37:16 There are no calls to the open(2) system call in that code. Can you be more specific? 19:37:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:37:46 exactly, so your initialization routines should take into parameter whichever thunk calls open or bind or listen or the equivalent and wrap locking around. 19:38:12 or else your fd map may not be updated atomically. 19:39:08 The file descriptor map need not be updated at all in the case of an interrupt. The mutex, moreover, doesn't provide any protection against interrupts; only the hash map and finalizer operations do. (This is an unstated assumption in all that code.) 19:40:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:40:48 -!- slom [n=ibook@pD9EB7AB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 19:41:38 Interrupt safety is guaranteed by putting an alien with -1 in the finalizer first, and then initializing it in C in an action that is atomic with a successful system call. That's what WITH-FILE-DESCRIPTOR-ALIENS and %DUPLICATE-FILE-DESCRIPTOR-TO do. 19:41:58 The mutex is there only to protect concurrent update to the file descriptor map. 19:43:20 And the file descriptor map exists only to record what file descriptors Scheme has successfully taken responsibility for. Those that are lost because of interrupts may never enter the file descriptor map, but will be closed by the finalizer. 19:44:31 Please let me know if you think there's anything inconsistent about what I'm saying, or whether you'd like clarification on my assumptions about interruptwise atomicity and interrupt safety. 19:44:45 where does w-f-d-a protect against interrupts? 19:45:17 Any part of in W-F-D-A can be interrupted. An interrupt during FINALIZER/ADD-OBJECT! won't ever leave the finalizer in an inconsistent state, though. 19:45:23 s/part of in/part of/1 19:45:45 if I interrupt during the body, won't there be a descriptor leaked? 19:45:55 No. 19:46:18 say the open syscall happened, but I didn't set the variable yet 19:46:54 There are three possible states here: 1. Initial state: no alien, no file descriptor. 2. Alien with -1 in the finalizer. 3. File descriptor opened and its number stored in the alien. 19:47:12 well, 3 is not atomic 19:47:39 unless you have something else than locks to ensure pclsring 19:47:40 The actions in C from a successful system call to the return back to Scheme are interruptwise atomic. 19:47:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:48:03 So if, say, pipe(2) succeeds, then so does the storing of the two file descriptor numbers into their respective aliens. 19:48:21 If pipe(2) fails, then there are no file descriptors to be worried about. 19:48:44 This is why the transition from state 2 to state 3 is atomic. 19:50:28 Riastradh, pipe works this way. But open or dup or bind don't. 19:50:43 What is different about open, dup, and bind? 19:51:21 they return their value in a register 19:51:31 In the definition of %DUP, if dup(fd) succeeds yielding a fresh file descriptor new_fd, then so does the command (*fd_pointer) = new_fd. 19:51:46 at it takes one or more additional instructions to store that value in your alien memory location. 19:52:11 C assignment from a call's return value is not atomic 19:52:36 That's fine. A signal may be deliverd in the intervening time, but in that case signal handlers aren't allowed to do anything interesting. 19:52:58 Implementations may instead choose to block signals during C calls, if they insist on having signal handlers that do anything interesting. 19:53:00 they are not? what a pity. 19:53:12 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:22 I'm looking into controlling my sailboat with a scheme program 19:53:36 ASau` [n=user@91.76.57.78] has joined #scheme 19:54:07 at least, that you rely on atomicity of C calls should be documented prominently. 19:54:15 Yes. 19:54:40 (This is, by the way, what you already get in Scheme48, PLT Scheme, MIT Scheme, &c.) 19:54:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.76.57.78] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:55 (Probably in Chicken, too, and I imagine in Gambit as well.) 19:54:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:56:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:56:53 I have just rewritten a good deal of that file descriptor code, by the way. 19:57:06 Oh, I mentioned that already. 19:57:23 Riastradh, btw, nice piece of obsessing about doing things right. 19:57:41 *Riastradh* bows. 19:58:29 ;;; That this mutex is recursive is an artefact of an earlier edition of this code. ==> is this comment relevant? 19:59:13 mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has joined #scheme 19:59:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:17 Relevant? Yes: it doesn't need to be a recursive mutex. I added that to the comment to prevent readers from spending time trying to figure out why it is recursive. 19:59:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:59:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:10 Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #scheme 20:04:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:18 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-68.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:34 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-68.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:09:00 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:42 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:09:45 -!- mmc [n=mima@89.27.122.78] has left #scheme 20:11:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:21 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:14:26 Um, I mean: `I added that comment to prevent...' 20:14:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:15:15 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:16:22 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 20:18:58 Arelius` [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 20:18:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:22:05 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90E5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:24:23 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90E5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:24 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:35 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 20:26:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:26:58 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90E5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:27:10 Riastradh annotated #88683 "take two, this time supporting cession of responsibility for file descriptors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88683#1 20:27:52 -!- gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:10 stupid question: how do you handle syscalls that are conditionally defined such as dup3, only available on linux? 20:40:17 proq [n=user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:17 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:29 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:40:33 That's not a stupid question at all. I don't have a good answer for it. Here is an answer, which you may accept as good or not: #ifndef HAVE_DUP3 / int dup3 (int olfd, int newfd, int flags) { return ENOSYS; } / #endif 20:44:17 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-eqpdtbppwxlzqfrk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:02 can't you do the same as dup3 with dup2 and fcntl? 20:45:16 so basically, you could emulalte it easily 20:45:20 Yes, sure, although it's not atomic then. 20:45:29 unless you use locks 20:45:29 It's not forkwise atomic, that is. 20:45:41 No, it's still not forkwise atomic. 20:45:52 even with semaphores? 20:46:00 Semaphores don't stop anyone from forking. 20:46:21 no, but each fork can use the same semaphore to make things atomic for one of them 20:46:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:42 You need every possible call to fork to cooperate with this. 20:46:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:47:12 yeah, I guess that is ugly 20:47:23 -!- seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.140.55] has left #scheme 20:48:56 It was just a really brain-damaged, stupid mistake for a little immediate convenience to have FD_CLOEXEC cleared by default. Argh. 20:49:07 you mean -ENOSYS ? 20:49:21 or -1 then set the error to ENOSYS ? 20:49:24 Fare, er. No, actually, I mean `errno = ENOSYS; return -1;'. 20:49:25 Right. 20:50:16 oh yeah, if you fork while another thread is at it... you're really safer if everything is in a lock to be grabbed atfork() 20:50:50 Hmm. I suppose that would work. 20:50:53 Riastradh, atfork is what makes calls to fork cooperate. 20:51:06 (It was still a really brain-damaged, stupid mistake.) 20:51:35 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:37 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 20:51:40 every mistake is a posteriori obvious/trivial/stupid 20:56:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:47 -!- Fare is now known as fe[nl]ix 20:56:55 -!- fe[nl]ix is now known as Fare 20:59:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:00:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:35 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:04:59 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:34 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:43 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:06:16 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has joined #scheme 21:07:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:28 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:14:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:27 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:17:56 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DCDF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:18:37 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 21:24:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:29:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:41:19 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060024016bb36c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:40 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:41:45 Riastradh annotated #88683 "(untested) example of ceding responsibility for file descriptors -- see FDOPEN in particular" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88683#2 21:41:55 jedc [n=jedc@c-67-171-246-227.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:42:29 Oops, wrong heading on that file. 21:42:58 good srfi or library for writing latex? 21:43:17 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 21:43:51 Um...GNU Emacs? M-x latex-mode RET? 21:44:19 I would like to write latex using scheme 21:44:34 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 21:45:08 jedc: scribble ? 21:45:13 slatex ? 21:45:19 skribe ? 21:46:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:46:33 thanks, il look into them 21:48:13 -!- jedc [n=jedc@c-67-171-246-227.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:52:11 -!- Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:28 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90E5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:57 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:02:11 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [] 22:02:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:05:58 poe 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