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Lambdalifting, it is forbidden dance. 01:05:20 c0c0b0ng0w [n=hk@190.75.214.239] has joined #scheme 01:06:46 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 01:08:47 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:54 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:26 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:14:19 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:15:27 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-202-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:16:09 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:18:14 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:48 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:12 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 01:22:43 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:24:36 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 01:32:19 Riastradh: What's a standard lambda lifting test? 01:41:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C95C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:32 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 01:50:41 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:56:00 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 01:59:09 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:16 -!- Hydr4 [n=Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:30 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:11 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 02:03:37 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:06:12 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:06:32 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:07:11 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:09:14 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:12:32 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 02:13:24 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:16:22 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:21:25 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:21:58 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-93.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 02:22:31 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:22:59 -!- c0c0b0ng0w [n=hk@190.75.214.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:59 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C95C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:31:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:49 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #scheme 02:41:41 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:44:19 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:44:23 arcfide: 20 reps at 250 lbs 02:44:45 arcfide left. 02:45:12 People leave IRC? 02:45:29 ... thought I tab-completed that, my fault. 02:45:44 Well, he only left #scheme. 02:45:48 Whether he left IRC I don't know. 02:47:14 minion: later tell arcfide: this is a message for zbigniew: arcfide has returned 02:47:15 i agree - later tell arcfide this is a message for zbigniew arcfide has returned 02:47:23 minion: memo for arcfide: this is a message for zbigniew: arcfide has returned 02:47:24 Remembered. I'll tell arcfide when he/she/it next speaks. 02:50:04 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:51:25 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:52:51 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176199068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:55 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:00:14 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:19 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176207208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:33 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:13:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:14:55 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:16:42 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:17:07 minion: memo for rudybot: yow! 03:17:08 Remembered. I'll tell rudybot when he/she/it next speaks. 03:26:16 Yow! 03:26:17 rudybot, memo from chandler: yow! 03:26:17 minion: memo from chandler: yow! 03:26:19 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 03:26:33 But you _look_ like a toy 03:27:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:29:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:31:58 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Adk087.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:01 foof [n=user@FLH1Adk087.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 03:33:22 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 03:34:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:38:54 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:38:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:39:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:44:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:16 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:48:23 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:49:23 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:50:11 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.160.82] has joined #scheme 03:50:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:51:44 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:55:20 Riastradh: yeah, the codeplex UI is horrible. I still have your CPS converter in the source tree, but not used currently. Going to attempt an 'efficient' CPS compiler when I rewrite all the compiler bits to scheme. 03:57:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:03:20 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:31 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:08:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:16 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 04:11:32 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.93] has joined #scheme 04:14:18 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:19:57 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:25:21 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:31 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:28:05 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:41 Riastradh: im a bit scared to mention, but the source control also has a SVN interface 04:30:25 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:30:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:33:57 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:25 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:52:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:54:59 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.93] has left #scheme 04:57:51 annodomini 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[n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:26:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:27:05 -!- exxxd34 [n=aseas65x@p7064-ipbfp502fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 08:27:32 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #scheme 08:32:33 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:32:50 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:36:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:36:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:42:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:46:32 optimizer: https://webmail.iro.umontreal.ca/pipermail/gambit-list/ 08:46:48 or gmane too, has an archive of the list. 08:46:54 Axioplase: thanks ... but how do I subscribe to th3e list? 08:47:06 -!- jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:20 Ha, err, just like any such ML? Try sending an email with "subscribe" as a title and as a body. 08:47:28 -!- rcy [n=rcy@96.49.69.62] has left #scheme 08:47:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:48:04 jrtayloriv [n=jrt4@69.205.162.12] has joined #scheme 08:49:00 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91C32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:49:12 Axioplase: to what address? won't i just spam the list instead of actually subscribing? 08:50:54 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 08:54:38 optimizer: No, because the mail won't make it to the list unless sent from a subscriber 08:55:34 he should be able to send a subscribe request to the list request address. 08:59:32 If he can find it. 08:59:49 sent it to him. 08:59:54 I'm trying to look at other mailman lists to infer the list request address 08:59:58 Ah, thanks. 08:59:59 schmir` [n=schmir@p54A91C32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:00:31 fyi: gambit-list-request@iro.umontreal.ca 09:01:41 yeah, as I thought then. 09:02:40 foof` [n=user@FLH1Adk087.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 09:02:56 ok. the request address responds. optimizer should be able to sign up. 09:03:27 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:06:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:17:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:07 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:18:36 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Adk087.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:19:44 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A91C32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:44 -!- schmir` [n=schmir@p54A91C32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the 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[Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:52 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:55 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:04 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 16:40:57 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:55:08 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:59:28 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:04:43 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:15:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:37 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:21:28 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:51 choas [n=lars@p5B0DCDD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:06 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.104.3] has joined #scheme 17:24:42 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:26:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-126.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:35:44 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:49 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:42:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:42:21 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:43:02 senft [n=senft@78.51.67.36] has joined #scheme 17:43:06 So what do you guys think of newlisp? 17:43:54 nothing, as I have never thought about it :) 17:43:59 I'm torn between "intriguing" and "worse than tinyscheme" 17:44:13 havent looked at it either 17:44:26 http://www.newlisp.org/ 17:44:53 It's an extremely delayed evaluation lisp-ish sort of thing, keeping things unevaluated to make them serializable. 17:45:40 like clojure/ 17:45:41 ? 17:45:53 It is far worse than Tiny-Scheme; it is worse than a joke. 17:45:55 so (lambda (x) (+ x x)) is literally (list (list x) (list + x x)) with a lambda flag tacked onto the outer list. 17:46:03 (A joke, at least, is conceivably funny.) 17:46:31 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:47:32 Dunno about Clojure that's the "I'm java but with parentheses" right? 17:48:37 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 17:48:48 I don't think newlisp is without consideration. They do claim it to be fast, despite its extreme introspection capabilities. 17:51:28 It's an interesting idea to be able to take a lambda and get the syntax for its original program from it. Or a macro... 17:51:35 They could claim it solves world hunger, too... 17:52:19 synx: a simple refernce to that info would work too 17:53:01 Most Scheme systems will record some source code as debugging information, synx. 17:55:08 leppie: I mean as an assumption not as a temporary thing that is removed for the finished product. 17:55:32 Maybe it limits what programs you can write, but hm... 17:58:00 hotblack23 [n=jh@91.5.102.97] has joined #scheme 18:00:04 Riastradh: I have to disagree with your statement. 18:00:20 Which statement? 18:00:21 Riastradh: It's not related to any sense of "joke" that I know of... 18:00:45 For real jokes, read posts on r6rs-discuss. 18:01:10 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-203.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:01:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.104.3] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:02:06 Riastradh: Sorry, I see that you corrected yourself about it not even being funny. 18:04:50 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:10:41 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-93.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:52 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pumpkinpro.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:14:18 optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 18:15:04 -!- pumpkin_ is now known as pumpkin 18:19:41 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:18 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:45 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@80.229.216.34] has joined #scheme 18:29:41 skuba [n=skuba@dslb-092-072-055-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:46 hi 18:30:29 Hello 18:30:30 arcfide, memo from zbigniew: this is a message for zbigniew: arcfide has returned 18:31:06 *arcfide* examines minion's memo with curiosity. 18:31:21 Well that's...interesting. 18:31:41 -!- skuba [n=skuba@dslb-092-072-055-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:54 skuba [n=anonymou@dslb-092-072-055-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has 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attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:13:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:41 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:13:59 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest3158 20:14:01 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@unaffiliated/ada2358] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:16:32 andrew7 [n=andrew@cpc2-hatf4-0-0-cust79.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 20:16:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:50 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:16:52 -!- Guest3158 is now known as attila_lendvai 20:17:20 hello everyone, I've just had to start learning DrScheme for my final yr for a Computer Science degree, and I am really stumped by it 20:17:50 what's stumping you? 20:17:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:01 (you've incremented by 2 since you were on #lisp) 20:18:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:18:54 -!- pdelgallego [n=pdelgall@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:16 I've got a function called double(x) which doubles x funnily enough 20:19:52 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:19:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:56 I need to create a function with two inputs that, for example 1 and 30 20:19:57 That's a funny name for a function. 20:20:16 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:20:53 andrew7, that does what to 1 and 30? 20:20:55 doubles them? 20:21:06 that will print double the first value, increment it by one, prints double that 20:21:06 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 20:21:29 so on and so on, untill the first value = the second value, and stops 20:21:32 well that's not two inputs 20:21:43 what if it never does equal the first value? 20:22:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:08 two seconds, here is the question i was given 20:22:19 andrew7, what if the difference between the two values is not a positive integer? 20:22:22 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:22:37 andrew7, if that's an assignment ... why don't you ask your TA? 20:22:56 and/or backtrack a bit into the book and understand easier exercises first? 20:23:54 -!- andrew7 [n=andrew@cpc2-hatf4-0-0-cust79.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:27 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:26:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 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22:11:25 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:34 Testing a new client. Didn't like it. Back to XChat. 22:13:06 So why is import in R6RS not ordinary syntax capable of being generated by a macro? Is this a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? 22:13:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:54 hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:08 The way the R6RS is designed, you can find the set of bound and imported names from a library declaration without performing any macro expansion. 22:17:22 Right. And is this a Good Thing, and if so, why? 22:17:24 I think that is a good thing -- although I'd rather that you be able to do that without even reading the library's source code. 22:17:40 This means that it is easier to understand the organization of a program. 22:17:51 -!- rezinocaB is now known as Baconizer 22:18:27 For example, this enables an approximate M-. without needing to compile anything. 22:18:29 There has been talk on r6rs-discuss of the possible virtues of conditional import, though I tend to think that conditional include should be plenty. 22:19:41 Oh? Drat: I thought that the conflagration^Wtalk on r6rs-discuss had subsided. 22:20:01 -!- neilv2 [n=nvandyke@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has left #scheme 22:21:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-203.vinet.ba] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:23:42 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:23:58 jcowan: The reason R6RS did it that way was because some people argued strongly for a sort of static nature to the libraries such that you can "grep" them. 22:24:14 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:25:10 It is somewhat nice to have such things, but at the same time, I would prefer to have the ability to import anywhere I wanted. 22:25:24 It can't really die as long as I'm still posting proposal parts; of these, modules are the last. 22:25:25 This does result in library analysis being tied to expansion. 22:26:10 jcowan: I want to be able to generate library forms from macros, though, so...that's why I tend to go that way. 22:27:10 This wouldn't be very necessary if we could have both, one for describing libraries statically such that no expansion of the code is necessary, and one that can be generated from macros. 22:27:45 Why limit yourself to generating library forms from macros? Why not make them first-class objects, and generate them from procedures? 22:27:46 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90070.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:06 well, one could be achieved by a conventional restriction, just as (given include) you can by convention write code where module forms and other forms are in separate files, such as Riastradh loves. 22:28:28 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DCDD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:28:40 jcowan: That's not quite what Riastradh is saying. 22:28:43 Riastradh: Doesn't that entail first-class environments? 22:28:46 (Not merely that I `love' that -- it practically works for writing portable code. The R6RS crap doesn't.) 22:29:02 schmir [n=schmir@p54A90247.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:29:11 Not necessarily, jcowan. 22:29:19 Then you may certainly -- given include, which can be written using syntax-case -- write R6RS modules in precisely that fashion. 22:29:19 oh hey arcfide: 20 reps at 250 lbs 22:29:26 Riastradh: Well, you can write R6RS libraries separate from the code, but is that the only thing about that which you want? 22:29:29 neilmock [n=neilmock@99-11-93-68.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:29:36 zbigniew: Huh? 22:29:47 What I speak of are called `units' in the PLT Scheme world, and they are largely independent of first-class environments, which are what PLT Scheme calls namespaces. 22:30:03 18:31:20 < arcfide> Riastradh: What's a standard lambda lifting test? 22:30:12 arcfide, I want the default, encouraged mode to be the one that lends itself to writing portable code. 22:32:12 Right now, the R6RS pretty strongly discourages writing portable code by having it all thrown into R6RS-specific library definitions, and with SRFI 103, organized into particular random arrangements that have nothing necessarily to do with the organization of the program's implementation. 22:32:43 (`SRFI 103' meaning either the text of SRFI 103 or the present practice that it tries to codify an approximation of.) 22:35:48 The intent, as stated by Mike Sperber anyway, was for the R6RS's `library' concept to be a distribution format: you write your code sensibly, and only when distributing it do you package it up into libraries and distribute it. However, this concept didn't really come through to anyone except Mike Sperber; as a result, you have half a distribution format and half a module system, which works well for neither purpose. 22:36:19 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@80.229.216.34] has quit [] 22:37:44 Riastradh: I agree that R6RS libraries are half module, half "packaging" system. 22:37:53 Riastradh: I also agree that this doesn't really suit either. 22:38:58 jcowan: I do like the idea of separating out packaging or library distribution data and a syntactic module form that is meant more for abstracting visibility of bindings at a syntactic level. One is more like Chez's module system, and the other more like Scheme48's system. I do think that you could have both, and Scheme would benefit. 22:42:11 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has joined #scheme 22:43:42 What useful applications does Chez's module system have? Modules aren't first-class, so you can't write programs that reason about modules; but modules exist only after the organization of the program is determined and the compiler has processed all its source code, so they're not useful for controlling that. 22:43:56 metasyntax` [n=user@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:37 -!- senft [n=senft@78.51.67.36] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:53:29 -!- metasyntax` [n=user@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:54:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:00:09 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-114.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:00:32 What are the deficiencies, other than underspecification, of R6RS libraries as a packaging format. 23:00:36 ? 23:00:53 jcowan: You mean like the implicit export of all identifiers? 23:01:44 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:13 What explicit export? Or is that your point? 23:02:24 Riastradh: Interesting macros can be created to extend the module system in the way you like. Examples from the documentation include, separating out interface and implementation, recursive modules, abstract modules (that allow mutually recursive modules with separate compilation), a macro that can resolve to an identifer from a given module without require prefixing of that module on import, and so forth. 23:03:27 jcowan: In R6RS, since syntax exports are not identified, and their dependencies are also not identified, R6RS forces the implementation to implicitly export all identifiers in case some syntax may expand to one of those identifiers in the library, even if this is never the case. A compiler has to be much smarter to eliminate unused code. 23:04:08 Is this still true if all macros are syntax-rules macros? 23:04:10 Riastradh: You can also do things like parameterized modules, and so forth. 23:04:19 jcowan: I'm sorry? 23:04:54 It seems to me that if all macros are s-r, then the set of implicitly exported identifiers is known. 23:05:01 statically. 23:05:17 jcowan: This isn't true in R6RS. 23:05:23 jcowan: SYNTAX-CASE is a reality. 23:05:23 jcowan: (BTW, it's `define' in Scheme, not `defun'...) 23:06:16 It is approximately known, jcowan. 23:06:42 Riastradh: Additionally, using modules in a "micro-module" fashion is nice as a way of doing more sophisticated control of the bindings than just a LET or such. 23:06:57 eli: I don't understand your point. 23:07:04 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-114.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:07:18 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 23:07:22 metasyntax` [n=user@71.127.125.129] has joined #scheme 23:07:28 arcfide: I know s-c is a reality. I asked a different question, parallel to "Is implicit phasing sufficient if all macros are s-r?", to which the answer is "Yes". 23:07:36 Riastradh: Wherein lies the approximation? 23:07:41 jcowan: See your reply to BH. 23:07:57 jcowan: (<20091012165454.GL28355@mercury.ccil.org>, if that helps.) 23:08:11 jcowan: (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo) 'bar))) 23:08:36 Quite so. Brain fart on my part, eli. 23:08:49 A dangerous one. 23:08:55 (define-syntax define-frob (syntax-rules () ((define-frob frob) (define-syntax frob (syntax-rules () ((frob zot) (+ zot 1))))))) 23:09:04 What are the exported names due to these macros, jcowan? 23:09:42 Mmm, quite. So much for that idea. 23:09:55 eli: Why dangerous? 23:11:10 jcowan: In the same sense that a dangerous Freudian slip is when you want to ask your mother to pass the salt and instead you say "you destroyed my life, you fucking bitch". 23:11:47 arcfide, so, suppose you have introduced some `interface' and `implementation' concept on top of Chez's modules by defining a bunch of hairy macros to expand to MODULE forms. Now how do I query information about these at the REPL? 23:12:11 For instance, I want to find out all the implementations of some interface, and where their source code is. 23:12:13 Sorry, but I don't think of Common Lisp as obscene. If you do, well, I regret that you were injured by reading my post. 23:12:26 jcowan: No, not at all! 23:12:42 Then I continue to be mystified. 23:13:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-88.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #scheme 23:13:31 jcowan: To be more explicit, I believe that the main gap between CLers and Schemers is that the former use *symbols* when they talk about syntax values, and the latter use *identifiers*. There is a similar kind of gap between some Schemers (of which, BH is a classic example) who just "don't get" syntax if it's anything beyond `defmacro'. 23:13:52 SharkSpider [n=SharkSpi@rn--vw1-0-6-a44.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 23:14:25 Ah, I understand now. 23:14:28 jcowan: In this setup, the danger in saying `defun' is that it points at a specific mindset, usually one that makes you view `syntax-case' and other hygienic macro tools as more intimidating than they really are. 23:14:55 I don't find hygiene intimidating, I find low-level macro systems (hygienic or not) intimidating. 23:15:33 Therefore I cheerfully accept the limitations of syntax-rules, and not only its limitations, but its perceived limitations for those who have not read JRM's Primer to the end. 23:16:26 (I have *read* it to the end, but not *grokked* it to the end.) 23:16:44 *Those* perceived limitations are better, IMO, than the illusion of "syntax-rules is enough to do anything I want -- there's no need for anything more than that". 23:17:19 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:23 Your recent post re `syntax-error' is a perfect example of that. 23:17:39 looking for a bit of pointers to do with some recursive algorithms to deal with a simple boolean list, if anyone's got a few minutes and some know-how, about that? 23:18:32 It is indeed enough to do anything *I* want. 23:19:01 SharkSpider: What do you mean by a "boolean list"? 23:19:17 jcowan: well a list of trues or falses, of arbitrary length 23:19:32 Okay. And how do you plan to deal with it? 23:20:22 jcowan: The danger in `syntax-error' is shown in your reply here: "hopefully displaying "Missing fzatt" at the same time. This <<>> for consistency's sake." 23:20:24 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A90247.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:45 s/danger/conceptual danger/ 23:20:57 Please elucidate. 23:20:59 jcowan: need to do two things, that I'm stumped on. One is to check if the amount of "true" is odd, but only using one recursion, but the issue is that it also needs to return different errors if it's either not given a list, or given a list with other elements 23:21:36 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:47 schemer999 [n=schemer9@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:21:58 Riastradh: Be default, you would probably wouldn't, but you could make it possible to query macro forms thus defined, by tracking their information, or otherwise. 23:22:03 Well, given a list whose parity (odd-ness or even-ness) is known, how can you tell the parity of a list that is one element longer? 23:22:10 jcowan: You're pointing at a weakness of `syntax-rules', and you're trying to compensate by adding more "meta macros". People will come up with similar hacks that can "solve" other problems like some (identifier-append foo bar). 23:22:35 eli: `syntax-perturbation' or whatever ridiculous name it has in the R6RS is a standardized primitive; why can't there be a syntactic primitive equivalent? 23:22:57 chandler: I have no idea what that is. 23:23:16 He means `syntax-disturbance-in-the-force'. 23:23:21 Well, it's not `syntax-error'. Is it `syntax-violation'? 23:23:23 Yes, it is. 23:23:31 jcowan: easy, if the known list is true, then if the element is true, return false, if it's false return true, otherwise just return the element. The issue is making an error detection script that doesn't use an extra calling of the parity one 23:23:49 chandler: Well, *that* (whatever it's name is), is just a value -- plain scheme code. 23:24:07 SharkSpider: Why "otehrwise just return the element"? 23:24:36 chandler: What jcowan is implicitly pointing at is a need to extend the limited patter-only language of `syntax-rules'. (Hence my analogy of (identifier-append foo bar) over something like (symbol-append 'foo 'bar)) 23:24:37 I agree that JRM's definition of syntax-error is hacky, but not that it's hacky to have such a syntactic form. 23:24:39 jcowan: if parity is false, then if the next element is false it stays false, and if its true it stays true 23:24:52 *becomes true 23:25:12 eli: No; it's not an extension of the pattern-only language; it's an addition of a syntactic primitive. 23:25:17 jcowan: It's hacky in that it shatters the illusion that the simplistic rewriting system is usable. 23:25:19 But what if the single element is neither true nor false? 23:25:37 then there's a problem, that I need to solve, without doing another recursive check 23:25:58 chandler: Do you see any reason to use that pattern outside of a macro definition? 23:26:03 eli: "Usable" without "for what" is something I don't understand, like "decent" without "to whom". 23:26:24 jcowan: Usable for programming in. 23:26:30 eli: I'm not sure how adding a syntactic primitive to the predefined repertoire is any different than adding a new procedure to the language. 23:26:35 jcowan: Usable for expressing yourself in. 23:26:43 eli: No. Do you see any reason to use `syntax-violation' outside of a macro definition? 23:26:56 it's obviously usable for writing *some* programs, representing *some* expressions. 23:27:15 Yeah -- limited. 23:27:23 Everything's limited. 23:27:25 chandler: Yes -- in library code that is usef to implement some macro. 23:27:53 jcowan: s/limited/limited in comparison to what you get with a real language for your macros/ 23:27:53 That didn't really point out any fundamental difference. I write library syntactic forms that are used to implement other syntactic forms quite frequently. 23:28:04 Beethoven didn't complain because he was "limited" to using musical notes and words to express his ideas. He did not insist on flashing lights of various colors as well. 23:28:21 *eli* refuses to go down Bad-Analogy Road. 23:28:27 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:28:47 chandler: That's not what I mean. 23:29:02 How about Car-Analogy Road? That's a very popular place for the Slashdot crowd to hang out, I hear. 23:29:10 *jcowan* laughs. 23:29:23 *eli* didn't get that 23:30:08 I think the analogy is rather apt, but I won't pursue it. The notion that a given form of expression, even PLT Scheme, is without significant limitations is absurd. 23:30:20 chandler: I'm talking about the fact that `syntax-rules' is limited enough that it begs adding new constructs that allow you to do more stuff -- like appending names, or like throwing readable errors -- and missing the fact that you're no longer in the confines of the simple rewrite system that `syntax-rules' is intended to be. 23:30:34 eli: http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~mvanier/hacking/rants/cars.html is the first ghit. 23:31:06 "Lisp: At first it doesn't seem to be a car at all, but now and then you spot a few people driving it around. After a point you decide to learn more about it and you realize it's actually a car that can make more cars. You tell your friends, but they all laugh and say these cars look way too weird. You still keep one in your garage, hoping one day they will take over the streets." 23:31:06 jcowan: That's an argument of a philosophical level. I'm simply comparing Scheme with and without procedural macros. 23:31:50 Yeah, I know about those -- how is it related to slashdot is what I missed. 23:31:52 Okay. In that case I agree that syntax-rules limit what you can express, and I state that that limit doesn't distress me. If I want more, I'll write a stand-alone program translator which can take the full context into account. 23:32:18 eli: I think there are a couple of points where that idea goes astray. First, I don't see how adding syntactic primitives is any more or less a condemnation of the nature of `syntax-rules' than adding new procedures is of the nature of Scheme itself. New procedures are typically added to the standard because they can't (easily, efficiently, or correctly) be implemented using the existing set of language facilities. What's wrong with doing the sa 23:32:24 ... the realm of syntax? 23:32:36 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-93-250.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:32:40 `What's wrong with doing the sathe realm of syntax?'? 23:32:53 "same in..." 23:33:01 Heuristics fail; film at 11. 23:33:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:33 chandler: Actually I disagree that that's why new procedures are added, at least if we look at SRFIs. 23:33:39 Secondly, adding something like an `append-identifiers' syntax does not change the nature of `syntax-rules' as a rewriting system; furthermore, procedural macros also exist in the same rewriting world, and there's no way of getting around of that. 23:34:14 jcowan: I think the SRFIs are another matter entirely. Some of them fit that description; others don't. 23:36:35 chandler: To summarize what I'm saying, I take just `define-syntax' and some representation for syntaxes that allow syntax transformers to be defined as a more elegant addition to the language when put against `syntax-rules' -- that one gives you the illusion that you don't need anything else and you can get "almost anything you want", when the reality is that `syntax-rules' is so limited that it should almost never 23:36:35 be used for anything other than as a local hack in your own code. 23:36:56 *eli* uses a client that manages to do the guessing, probably 23:37:21 Goodness! I can't imagine why anyone would use anything but SYNTAX-RULES to define LET. Is LET not to be used, then? 23:38:08 Or let us say LET-VALUES, since LET is taken to be already defined. 23:38:10 Gosh. I can't imagine why one would eschew `syntax-rules' for macros which are hygienic and don't need to do significant syntax-time computation. 23:38:25 LET-VALUES is non-trivial to define. 23:39:26 (and has no definition that grants the compiler the leeway that should be granted) 23:39:31 (no standard definition, that is) 23:39:35 What leeway is that? 23:39:48 Any definition in terms of CWV fixes a particular order of evaluation. 23:40:09 Riastradh: Was that a serious question? 23:40:51 eli, if your suggestion was serious that SYNTAX-RULES should almost never be used for anything other than a local hack in one's own code, then yes. 23:41:19 Riastradh: And how do you define `let' so that it makes sense? 23:41:22 *jcowan* doesn't think it's elegant to use big means to achieve small ends. 23:41:28 rudybot: eval (let ([x 1] [x 2]) x) 23:41:28 eli: error: eval:1:13: let: duplicate identifier at: x in: (let ((x 1) (x 2)) x) 23:41:35 Riastradh: Like that. 23:41:38 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-129-44-182-54.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:40 rudybot: eval (lambda (x x) x) 23:41:40 chandler: your r5rs sandbox is ready 23:41:40 chandler: error: eval:1:11: #%plain-lambda: duplicate argument name at: x in: (#%plain-lambda (x x) (r5rs:body x)) 23:41:50 Wow! `lambda' does the same thing for me. 23:42:05 chandler: yes, but that doesn't help with `let'. 23:42:12 It doesn't? 23:42:23 eli, hmm, I thought PLT Scheme put a lot of effort into reporting the source of syntax errors, so that the LET would be highlighted when LAMBDA complained. 23:43:21 rudybot: eval (define-syntax-rule (let ([var val] ...) body ...) ((lambda (var ...) body ...) val ...)) 23:43:28 rudybot: eval (let ([x 1] [x 2]) x) 23:43:28 eli: error: eval:1:13: lambda: duplicate argument name at: x in: (lambda (x x) x) 23:43:51 DrScheme is a lot smarter about this; it highlights the second `x'. 23:43:56 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:59 Riastradh: It would point at that `lambda', but that doesn't help the end user of your library -- who will now need to dive into your code. 23:44:16 eli, so I don't get an expansion history or anything? 23:44:23 It absolutely does *not* point at the `lambda' in the syntax rules. 23:45:00 chandler pasted "Try this in your friendly neighborhood DrScheme, folks!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88559 23:45:07 Note that we have now switched from expressiveness to debuggability, a very different thing. Prolog is admirably expressive, but hard to debug. 23:46:13 chandler: the information is there -- but if you take the drscheme highlight then things are of course even worse. 23:46:28 Huh? 23:46:30 They are? 23:46:33 How come it complains about `lambda', when my code doesn't have any `lambda'? 23:47:00 rudybot: eval (let ([x 1])) 23:47:00 eli: error: eval:1:52: lambda: bad syntax in: (lambda (x)) 23:47:06 Because the implementation of syntax-rules is inadequately debuggable, *not* because sytnax-rules is inadequately expressive. 23:47:12 That error would highlight the `lambda', BTW. 23:47:43 rudybot: eval (map values '(1 2 . 3)) 23:47:43 chandler: error: mcar: expects argument of type ; given 3 23:47:46 I don't expect the environment to detect every error I make the moment I write it. If that happened, I'd have no need for debuggers. I appreciate that you can catch some errors early, but I hope that the system is capable of letting me debug the errors sensibly, and of showing me the expansion history &c. 23:47:52 My code doesn't have any `mcar' in it. 23:47:53 Programmers who deal in abstractions at all (the vast bulk of them) sometimes have to deal with leaks from the layer(s) below the abstraction. 23:48:20 chandler: Yes, same deal. It points at a missing contract. 23:48:36 This is a serious point; I think deferred detection of syntactic errors is exactly the same as deferred detection of type checking in an untyped language like Scheme. 23:48:44 *jcowan* agrees. 23:49:03 I have no idea how you made that logical jump. 23:49:15 I don't see a logical jump, and I suspect that neither jcowan nor chandler does either. 23:49:26 True. 23:49:43 I don't think I made a logical leap. 23:50:02 On another topic, it occurs to me that one way of convincing people that proper tail recursion matters is to argue as the devil's advocate that garbage collection is a mere "optimization". 23:50:09 OK then; please to explain in a more precise way. 23:50:50 In both cases, a high-level construct that is misinvoked does not report the error, but leaves it to be reported by a lower-level construct in terms of which the h-l construct is implemented. 23:51:09 Having my definition of `let' depend on `lambda' for duplicate bound identifier checking is analogous to having `map' depend on `car' for checking the list-ness of its second argument. 23:51:56 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:56 But at the runtime level (the `map' example), it *is* possible to check and report an error (in *Scheme* code) -- you're comparing that with a language that doesn't allow you do that in any way. 23:52:14 Indeed. 23:52:18 charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:57 Not having grokked JLMP to the end, I don't know if it's possible to detect this situation in s-r or not. 23:52:59 In other words, the real analogy here should be: take Scheme, and remove `number?' etc -- so now there is no way to throw an error about a non-numeric argument, except for actually using the thing as a number and letting the error present itself. 23:53:32 And the solution in this case is obvious in both cases: 23:53:39 In runtime, just add `number?' 23:54:23 In macros, add yet another syntactic construct like (assert-different-bindings let x x) --> should throw a syntax error complaining that `x' is bound twice, and print `let' as the source of the error. 23:54:36 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:54:57 Using this, I'll be able to write (syntax-rules () (let ([var val] ...) body ...) (begin (assert-different-bindings let var ...) ((lambda (var ...) body ...) val ...))) 23:55:24 Not quite. 23:55:57 What's "not quite" -- and how is it so? 23:56:04 charleyb_ [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:07 -!- charleyb [n=charleyb@c-67-162-157-218.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:33 You also need ERROR at run-time (or some finer-grained mechanism of reporting errors), so a more precise analogy would be to add syntax for testing whether each element of a list of names is unique in that list, as well as syntax for reporting an error. 23:59:04 Riastradh: Ah, OK. You're suggesting either (assert-different-bindings let (var ...) ), ... 23:59:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:35 That's a better analogy to NUMBER?, certainly. 23:59:47 Analogue, even.