00:13:04 perhaps i will use this "send/back" much of the time 00:14:10 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:19:32 er, send/forward 00:20:07 heaven/forfend 00:23:26 indeed/quite-so 00:24:54 -!- karme [n=user@io.karme.de] has left #scheme 00:26:54 > You should use Web cells if you want an effect to be encapsulated in all interactions linked from (in a transitive sense) the HTTP response being generated. For more information on their semantics, consult the paper "Interaction-Safe State for the Web". 00:35:26 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:39:03 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-249.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:40:35 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@h141.153.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:44 jackharris [n=jackharr@c-71-194-200-63.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:03 -!- jackharris [n=jackharr@c-71-194-200-63.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:16 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@h141.153.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:03 neilv2: I'm not sure about the different `send/*' function names... 00:47:36 there is a lot of stuff in the web-server manual 00:48:27 i am skimming the entire thing, and picking out the small subset that i think i'll need right now 00:53:57 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 01:00:30 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-36-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:06:19 offby1: heavens->betsy 01:06:37 bigmac/cheese 01:12:19 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 01:17:10 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:37 did plt change their comment color again, or is this windows display just different? 01:19:14 i liked the plt 2xx cyan color for comments 01:19:28 then they switched to "yellow snow" 01:19:33 now it looks orange 01:30:00 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:57:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:02:59 neilv2: don't eat the yellow snow! 02:06:41 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 02:17:06 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:23:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:27:07 peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.1.40] has joined #scheme 02:31:15 Watch out where the Huskies go 02:31:36 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:16 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:48 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176207208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:03:57 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@24.82.1.40] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:08 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:06:25 foof [n=user@FLH1Adk087.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 03:08:38 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176196103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:47 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:24:01 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F003.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:47 ontoillogical [n=user@75-119-254-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:58:24 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:01:32 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:37 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-156-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:10 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-156-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:21:30 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:26:58 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:29:09 foof: ping 04:33:04 *jcowan* thinks mixed-exactness complex numbers are Just Weird. 04:33:16 pong 04:33:39 Do you have a design for chibi modules yet? 04:33:44 yeah 04:33:49 (I may have asked this before) 04:33:55 How will they work, then? 04:35:21 (module (srfi 1) (export xcons cons* ...) (import scheme) (files "srfi-1.scm")) 04:35:55 Cool. 04:36:04 Can I talk you into changing "files" to "include"? 04:36:06 The only thing holding me up right now is there's a bug in calling EVAL from within a macro expander. 04:36:20 Sure, include works. 04:37:06 (yes, `module' is a macro but it's only accessible from the config language environment) 04:38:43 Sounds great. 04:39:08 At the top-level (repl or scripts) you just use `import' which is not the same import but rather talks to the config language. 04:39:14 this sounds fun, foof :P 04:39:14 *jcowan* nods. 04:39:28 Chibi is teh greatness. 04:39:42 The ,import ... approach always bugged me because it's pretending not to override any Scheme bindings, but in fact is overriding unquote. 04:39:44 does it build on plan 9? 04:39:59 Well, unquote is usually unbound, no? 04:40:02 @import (srfi 1) might be a consideration 04:40:07 @? 04:40:29 Yes, but it effectively becomes a keyword. 04:40:35 *jcowan* nods. 04:40:55 I especially like Chibi's implementation of multiple values. So elegant. 04:42:16 If it couldn't be done that easily I probably wouldn't have supported MV at all :) 04:42:36 *jcowan* chuckles. 04:42:58 Elly: The source from August builds on plan 9. 04:43:16 foof: Did you happen to see an email from me today asking about one Chibi function? 04:43:21 peter_12: yes 04:43:25 hang on 04:43:31 foof: does the current head? 04:43:35 Elly: no 04:43:39 :( 04:44:00 Do you guys actually use Plan 9 for anything? 04:45:01 -!- davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:45:40 -!- neilv2 [n=nvandyke@fpos-xp.csail.mit.edu] has left #scheme 04:45:40 not really 04:45:40 I am writing a window manager for it 04:47:39 Hah, good luck getting that accepted! 04:48:00 "accepted" by whom? :P 04:48:11 The Plan 9 community. 04:48:29 fuck them if they can't deal with variety of software 04:48:48 the only person that needs to sign off on it is my professor :) 04:48:52 they aren't interested in windows managers? 04:50:53 foof: What about prefixing import: any hope of getting that? 04:51:45 jcowan: I'm debating putting that in the core or providing a config extension to do so - either way, it will definitely be available. 04:52:24 Great. 04:53:50 Would you be open to a C patch to add "primitive records"? They'd be the same as vectors, except for not being vectors. That would eat 5 opcodes, I think. 04:53:58 *jcowan* volunteers to write the patch. 04:54:18 Given that, SRFI 9 or even SRFI 99 is easy. 04:54:27 jcowan: On my TODO list :) 04:54:54 I seriously want to contribute to chibi, so if you send me your todo list I'll tackle some of the things on it. 04:55:44 Oh, hey look, that list isnt written down anywhere... 04:55:54 foof: thanks for the reply. I was just double checking. 04:56:00 peter_12: np 04:56:14 Our laptops may never get a Hardy>Lynx update, alas, due to lack of popularity. 04:56:15 jcowan: I'll write it later, I promised a new release of at least fmt today. 04:56:20 *jcowan* nods. 04:56:21 Thanks. 04:58:42 I just fixed a long-time pet peeve of mine in fmt, btw - exact rationals can now be formatted to abitrary fixed precision. 04:59:13 so (fmt #f (fix 1000 1/3)) will give you "0." followed by 1000 3's 04:59:53 1/7 will give the digits 142857 repeating without any roundoff error 05:00:10 Very cool. 05:00:20 Is the last digit rounded? 05:00:33 Not at the moment, that's easy to fix :/ 05:03:43 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has joined #scheme 05:11:52 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:12:59 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:13:43 -!- ontoillogical [n=user@75-119-254-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:14:21 ontoillogical [n=user@75.119.254.157] has joined #scheme 05:22:32 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.91.168] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:54:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:58:34 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:01:23 -!- ontoillogical [n=user@75.119.254.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:57 xwl [n=user@125.34.171.114] has joined #scheme 06:07:03 sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.27.48] has joined #scheme 06:14:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.31.210] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-65.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:42 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.8.155] has joined #scheme 06:23:11 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit ["WAVY QUIT"] 06:25:29 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.140.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:28:57 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:33:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:15 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 07:01:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-175.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:04:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:49 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:13:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 07:15:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:26 ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has joined #scheme 07:18:35 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:00 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:36:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:37:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #scheme 07:39:20 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 07:39:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 07:39:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:07 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:42:44 TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has joined #scheme 07:44:07 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #scheme 07:44:12 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.94.83.194] has joined #scheme 07:47:04 incubot: is premature generalization related to premature optimization; or is premature generalization a genuine oxymoron? 07:47:08 no, it's a generalization of that. (Consider how to define one in terms of the other -- foof -> fart requires a unique marker value kludge.) I'm calling that operation MODIFY!, but I'm not sure whether it is useful at all. 07:49:21 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 07:49:28 TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 07:50:28 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:50:39 TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has joined #scheme 07:54:54 ? 08:01:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:04:47 foof: heh 08:05:18 incubot: in other words, one man's secundum quid is another's reducible discontinuity 08:05:21 which is a further discontinuity 08:17:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:01 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 08:25:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 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11:00:02 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-77.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:00:09 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:19:44 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 11:19:56 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.240.112] has joined #scheme 11:21:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:21:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:22:15 rotty: fmt 0.7 released: http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/ 11:22:22 Should fix all of your issues. 11:23:06 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DE9EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:30:23 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:38:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 11:39:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:25 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#scheme 17:17:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:24:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:18 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:28:35 -!- Guest56320 is now known as chandler 17:31:18 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 17:36:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:13 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:38:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:28 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:38:29 -!- fridge [n=fridge@220-253-179-45.NSW.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:08 fridge [n=fridge@dsl-220-253-71-89.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #scheme 17:40:52 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-157-86.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 17:40:55 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:53 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:49:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.53.207] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:53:49 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 17:57:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:12 I am having some problems with parametrize. I took a module and moved a definition outside. Unfortunately it does not find a parametrized variable anymore. What can I do? 18:00:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:01:07 Leonidas: The module needs access to the variable, just as if it were a regular variable 18:01:08 http://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/rudybot/blob/master/verbs.ss <- this is the file 18:01:20 I'm not quite sure I follow your question. "it does not find a parameterize varaible anymore" isn't really a complete description of a problem. But if that means what I think it means, did you export the parameter from the module? 18:01:59 chandler: the thing is: I don't understand how it was accessing it, before I even moved it out 18:02:17 -!- gribozavr [n=grib@109.86.114.90] has quit [] 18:02:25 What is the name of the parameter? 18:02:26 chandler: it is defined here: http://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/rudybot/blob/master/irc-process-line.ss 18:02:28 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yg882s9 18:02:34 *response-target* 18:03:25 Where is *response-target* defined? 18:03:38 now, I suspect I could export it, and import it in verbs.ss, but that would leave me with a circular import 18:04:04 Wait, what? 18:04:08 chandler: http://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/rudybot/blob/master/irc-process-line.ss#L346 18:04:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yh7s3sk 18:04:21 No; that's not where it's defined. 18:04:23 oh, no, wair 18:04:27 *wait 18:04:31 It's defined in vars.ss. 18:04:43 irc-process-line.ss requires vars.ss . 18:05:00 chandler: http://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/rudybot/blob/master/irc-process-line.ss#L651 18:05:01 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ylsydhn 18:05:11 No; that's not where *response-target* is defined either. 18:05:15 gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has joined #scheme 18:05:25 -!- gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has left #scheme 18:05:25 http://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/rudybot/blob/master/vars.ss#L31 18:05:54 chandler: ok, now I see it. True. That removes a lot of my confusion 18:06:01 gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has joined #scheme 18:08:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:05 I thought the parametrize call makes it somehow visible to all other code that gets called inside of that. Whoich would be really hard to understand 18:11:46 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 18:13:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:17:25 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:18:42 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:30 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:22:05 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 18:22:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 18:24:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:24:56 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:24:56 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #scheme 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[n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:40:45 ooh, ooh, someone's hacking on Mr Bot 20:40:50 rudybot: how does that make you feel? 20:40:50 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 20:41:05 ah, I see: it makes you feel stupid. Carry on 20:44:04 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 20:45:44 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:47:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:18 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #scheme 20:51:36 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:46 -!- gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:01 gribozavr [n=grib@2001:470:d4b6:1:215:f2ff:fe65:2d39] has joined #scheme 20:55:37 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 20:56:22 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-93.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:04:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:07:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:19:31 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["ca suffit"] 21:19:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:22:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:14 Gee. I thought I dimly recalled leppie mentioning using some code of mine in IronScheme, and I wanted to see whether I could find it, so I Googled up IronScheme's `codeplex' (some kind of cheap attempt by Microsoft to rip off Google Code?), and tried to find a link to the source code. 21:23:17 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 21:24:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:52 Apparently, if you want merely to *read* the source code (not even use it, copy it, redistribute it, or anything), you're expected to go through some JavaScript dialogue box to click on a licence agreement. What's wrong with having just a static link to a plain old HTML directory browser? 21:25:40 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:26:40 Codeplex is older than Google Code, actually. But it's always been cheap ;) 21:26:51 probably a very expensive attempt actually 21:27:34 Maybe I'm drawing a tenuous connection, but the name certainly sounds Google-envious to me (the Google headquarters, of course, being called the Googleplex). 21:27:46 *shrug* 21:28:29 hm, maybe I'm mistaking codeplex for codeproject 21:28:36 *sjamaan* shrugs, too 21:29:35 According to Wikipedia, `codeplex' began one year after Google Code (2005 vs 2006). 21:30:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:13 Then it must've been codeproject 21:30:26 (which isn't by microsoft I think, but it's heavy on .NET stuff) 21:30:45 yeah, the silly puppet logo confirms that 21:32:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:32:59 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:33:05 *eli* shrugs also 21:33:15 Does that make me fashionable now? 21:34:48 eli: *shrug* 21:35:55 Gopher, FTW. 21:35:56 arcfide, memo from eli: "You like shared state among phases" =~= "you like `eval-when'". 21:36:10 Hahahahhahahahahhaahha. 21:36:14 chandler: Meta-shrugging must be better. 21:36:29 arcfide: That wasn't a joke, BTW. 21:36:41 eli: I figured you were serious. 21:36:48 Still. hehe. 21:40:26 eli: What exactly are you saying with that statement above? Surely you're not saying that people who like to have the ability to share state among phrases also like to use EVAL-WHEN in their program code, right? 21:42:40 arcfide: To be more precise, `eval-when' is one of a few constructs that address problems with such sharing. Another running theme in these constructs is that nobody likes them. Why people don't make the reasonable conclusion is beyond me. 21:43:33 eli: What would be these other constructs? 21:44:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:58 `eval-when' have several variations in CL (see for example the differences between CLtL1 and CLtL2), ELisp has its own `eval-when', Schemes that have that kind of sharing have their own names and other hacks. 21:46:01 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #scheme 21:48:13 eli: Like? It's possible to share state with nothing more than the R6RS library form assuming certain properties about the way libraries are loaded into the system. 21:48:56 arcfide: I don't know what you mean by that. 21:49:21 If Chez has some restriction about the sharing, then that's a hack that falls in the same category. 21:50:23 eli: Restriction? Chez certainly has EVAL-WHEN, but the properties I was assuming was that a new library instance is not created for every phase, but rather, that the same library instance is used for all phases during a single execution or run of the program. 21:50:58 So I'll go back to saying that I don't know what you meant by the above. 21:51:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:53 But IME, arguing why this kind of sharing is bad after you've been explicitly pointed at it is not going to be productive. It'll be more effective when your foot starts bleeding. 21:53:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:53:25 eli: So, if library A imports library B into both the run time and the expand time phases of library A, and library B exports a parameter, assuming that library B is instantiated only once during a single run, say, when the library is loaded from source and then subsequently an export from A that uses the parameter exported from B is used in the REPL, then there is shared state. 21:53:30 -!- Cum [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:31 eli: No need to argue that. I don't think either of us would make headway regarding that issue on each other; I'm just trying to understand how you classify all the ways of sharing state in a Scheme system. 21:55:07 Obviously you think this is bad, but just how many ways are there, and are they all of the same ugliness? 21:55:50 It doesn't matter how many ways there are to reach bogosity -- the bad thing is to leave the bogosity in. 21:56:11 eli: Has PLT Scheme completely eliminated all forms of shared state between phases? 21:56:30 And of course I'm not going to make any "headway regarding sharing" -- I *came* from that side, and I did shoot my foot, and I made my conclusions. 21:57:13 There are some very very odd ways to get sharing -- an obvious example would be ports -- but at that level you know that you're doing something against the system. 21:57:29 Against the system? 21:58:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:01 I think he means externalizing state so it can be shared across phases. 21:59:10 Yes. 21:59:27 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:42 In other words, you're not going to get sharing through ordinary, lexical means: you have to work to shoot yourself in the foot. A dedicated programmer will always find a way. 22:00:36 chandler: Is externalized shared state as bad or in the same category as specified shared state within a Scheme system? 22:01:51 It's as bad, if not worse in that it probably can't be traced at all through lexical means. 22:03:27 Okay. 22:03:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:05:48 chandler: I can agree to a style or a mode of programming in which you generally avoid sharing state, since this is a rarely useful thing that you would want to do, but there just seem to be "exceptions" where, oh, we really are sharing state, and we do want to do that for good reasons, that I'm not convinced it should be made a restriction on the actual language semantics. But, I suppose if eli is correct, I'll shoot myself in 22:05:49 later, and then I will see the light. 22:06:42 Note that I avoid sharing state in my programs. I don't think I have written a library recently that requires shared state among phases. 22:07:51 arcfide: Yes, there are such cases, and in fact we plan to add a way to do that -- but that will be in the foreign interface, since it's dangerous in a very similar way. 22:08:29 But these cases are *very* rare -- and the danger of shooting your foot out-weights making it inconvenient to get sharing in the very rare occasions you need it. 22:08:53 Sharing of state across phases is a sure way to get yourself into a load ordering dependence issue in some way. 22:09:13 This is the classic case of where people shoot themselves in the foot in Common Lisp, since it's all too easy to do there. 22:10:14 eli: I accept that restricting things in such a way is a perfectly valid implementation decision to provide safety to the users of that implementation. 22:10:53 arcfide: Here's a mental exercise: describe when you need such a sharing. 22:11:21 Oh, not the mental exercise! 22:11:23 :-) 22:11:53 I'm afraid I'll have to delay my answer on that, since that would require too many system resources at the moment. :-) 22:12:37 Hm? 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