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I was trying to move stuff out of irc-process-line, but it complains that *response-target* is not defined. 01:05:50 and indeed, it only gets defined in a parametrize, but that stuff just confuses me. 01:10:18 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:02 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.30.33] has joined #scheme 01:12:38 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.30.33] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:50 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:09 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.30.33] has joined #scheme 01:30:23 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:16 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.30.33] has joined #scheme 01:38:32 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.30.33] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:43:09 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:33 -!- Adamant 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[n=jrt4@cpe-69-205-162-163.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:14:50 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 03:14:54 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 03:14:54 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.64.76] has joined #scheme 03:15:20 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #scheme 03:17:09 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:18:46 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:19:24 what's the cheapest new machine I can buy that'll run linux on it? 03:19:28 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 03:19:30 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:41 what's the cheapest new machine I can buy that'll run linux on it? (perferably linux + webserver) 03:20:21 a netbook? 03:20:28 copumpkin: like what? 03:20:39 I dunno, people are always telling me how cheap those are 03:20:42 I haven't bought a computer in a while 03:27:34 rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:30:31 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:30:34 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 03:31:01 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:14 lowlycoder: a samsung nc10? 03:35:47 lowlycoder: or a used thinkpad (I'm currently using one, very nice and cheaper than a new netbook) 03:35:54 hmm; if i want low price, why do I want a laptop instead of a box? 03:36:12 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:37:44 lowlycoder: because it is more handy? 03:38:23 lowlycoder: actually, if you want a box, go buy the cheapes one at walmart or similar and install linux on that. 03:38:25 does anyone market boxes cheaper than an Asus eePC (sp?) netbook type computer? 03:39:02 maybe a MSI Wind PC? 03:39:41 BTW - one needs next to nothing (cpu, mem, disk) by today's standard to run linux and a web server - really 03:39:44 ~ 200 which is 100 cheaper than the usual netbook prices here. 03:40:12 Cool. MSI rings a bell for some reason. 03:41:22 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:42:48 rudybot___ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:44:44 lowlycoder, I personally hated trying to type on a netbook -- keyboard was way too small. And if you can drop $250 on a netbook, then you can spend $250 on a used laptop that is faster and has more storage/memory. 03:45:44 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:46:04 i don't want a laptop; i want a server 03:46:41 OK, then even cheaper. Are you in the U.S.? 03:46:46 yeah 03:46:54 i just want a cheap file/web server 03:47:04 If so, find a "Free Geek" and get one for free or <$50 03:47:06 it needs to be able to run some form of a wiki and that's it 03:47:08 It is nice to have some slots and drive bays, replaceable power supply, etc. in case one needs them 03:47:32 If you don't need it to be brand new and shiny and sexy, that is. 03:47:57 And if you want people pointing fingers at you and giving you scornful looks over the tops of their MacBooks. 03:48:55 -!- zanes [n=zane@c-66-31-22-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:49:53 Search Google for "cheap pc" and there's an actual buyer's guide site a few links down 03:53:13 -!- docgnome [n=docgnome@65.101.144.42] has left #scheme 03:55:11 Back to Scheme, it occured to me today that it's odd that Scheme (or nearly any other language) includes stream style language primitives 03:55:17 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:42 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:07 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:10 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:56:27 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:29 -!- rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:16 So much programming is looping code that can be expressed better as a stream input/output filter - the filter is composable, but the loop style code is not 04:04:22 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:08:48 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:13:22 -!- rapacity_ is now known as rapacity 04:23:27 -!- klutomet1s is now known as klutometis 04:24:44 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:26:19 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 04:29:58 minion? 04:30:00 lisppaste? 04:30:09 I want to leave a plaintive message for jcowan about Scheme reports! 04:30:28 But because there's no minion, I need to leave a plaintive message for chandler about minion! 04:30:48 But because there's no minion...maybe this isn't a good idea. 04:31:35 arcfide, you correspond with the r6rs-circus, right? Closures shouldn't retain the values of variables not referenced in them. 04:32:23 This is important enough to standardize. It does *not* reflect current practice for all Scheme systems. 04:33:29 -!- brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:36:01 brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has joined #scheme 04:36:24 _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:29 The compiler as usual should be allowed to cheat on that so long as it doesn't get caught. 04:40:32 No, it shouldn't; I just phrased the property sloppily. If the compiler can prove, say, that two closures will have the same lifetime, then it is OK for it to implement them by sharing storage even if that storage retains the values of variables referenced in one but not in the other. 04:41:46 I was thinking along the lines of type inference proving that some value is an immediate, so it's safe to include it in a closure representation that can't directly access it. 04:42:18 it would still consume an extra memory slot 04:42:47 You're thinking too much about implementation details, foof. 04:42:47 Yes, which is a constant overhead. 04:43:37 Um, maybe my coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but how is this specification _not_ about implementation details? :) 04:44:40 it is and isn't - why not go further and say that all bindings no longer referencable must be collectible? 04:45:12 I'm not actually promoting that, obviously 04:45:16 Not that I think my comment should be included in the specification. 04:45:27 The property should be something closer to (but not exactly, because I have not thought this through thoroughly enough): In implementations with bounded amounts of storage for objects, there is no bound on the storage used by objects that occur only in the values of unreferenced free variables of procedures. 04:46:22 I'm just saying that as with all specifications, clever optimizations may be able to get away with breaking them behind the scenes. 04:47:37 so does "no bound" refer to the fact that they are collectible? Just trying to understand your wording 04:47:48 If they're breaking the properties, then they're in violation of the specification, foof. 04:48:09 Summermute, the specification does not discuss garbage collection except as a hint about how practical implementations work. 04:48:28 , I get that 04:48:31 Summermute, this property is similar to the property of proper tail recursion, which is that implementations must guarantee that there be no bound on the number of active tail calls. 04:48:42 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:48:45 I was thinking the same analogy 04:49:08 Riastradh: Are you disagreeing with the general concept that "a compiler can cheat so long as it doesn't get caught?" 04:49:13 Now I see better the "no bound" terminology 04:49:49 foof, yes. Either the compiler correctly implements the specification (in which case it's not cheating, even if it's being clever), or it doesn't (in which case there are programs that may break as a consequence). 04:51:20 As an example of cheating, if a compiler knows that a tail call is a leaf procedure and that calling conventions dictate that a tail call is more expensive than a normal call, it might make "normal" calls to any known leaf procedures 04:51:37 So, if a compiler can prove in some section of code that it's faster not to TCO a loop, and it can also prove that in that loop the stack will _never_ overflow, it's still in violation if it doesn't TCO the loop? 04:51:41 foof, sometimes people are confused about this. For example, Henry Baker was confused about proper tail recursion when he wrote his Cheney on the MTA paper and said that the technique follows the `spirit' of the standard, not its letter. Cheney on the MTA most certainly can follow the letter of the law of proper tail recursion: by garbage-collecting unused continuation frames, it guarantees that there is no bound on the number o 04:52:01 foof, what do you mean by `TCO a loop'? 04:52:58 that would be known self call and letrec style recursion - not calls to leaf procs 04:52:59 There are Scheme systems in which a procedure call in a tail position causes space to be accumulated. MIT Scheme is an example. Why is this not `cheating' or in violation of the specification? The amount of space accumulated by such procedure calls is bounded by a constant: the interpreter remembers a constant-size history of tail calls. 04:53:31 I mean apply tail-call optimization to the tail-call positions in a loop. In other words, leave uneeded frames on the stack. 04:54:14 Summermute, when you say `calling conventions', you are talking about an implementation technique. That is not the business of the standard to dictate: there are many valid implementation techniques that guarantee proper tail recursion, even if it is not immediately obvious how. 04:54:24 That's what the MIT Scheme is doing, presumably "stack crunching" tail call frames when the constant is reached 04:54:56 Sure, I was just elaborating the reason the compiler wants to cheat 04:55:00 foof, when you say `apply tail-call optimization' and `leave unneeded frames on the stack', you are talking about an implementation technique. If this implementation technique still exhibits the property that there is no bound on the number of active tail calls, then it has correctly implemented the specification. 04:55:52 Implementing the specification is not cheating. Perhaps in your compiler, you have some reasoning framework whereby in most parts of the code you assume that performing a tail call immediately replaces the storage occupied by the current stack frame with a different stack frame, and your compiler violates that reasoning framework. 04:56:23 I still contend that specifications can be and often are ambiguous or not well defined, such that you can follow the spirit of the specification but not the letter. 04:56:40 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 04:56:44 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:56:47 I'm not saying whether this necessarily applies to the TCO requirement or your proposal. 04:57:25 isn't any distinction between "spirit" and "letter" just a function of deficiencies in the specification? 04:57:30 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:57:58 I don't think that's a productive way to go about writing standards. If a standard requires a particular implementation technique when some more general property is what you actually want, and there is a different implementation technique which the standard rules out but which exhibits the more general property, then the standard should be written with the more general property. 04:59:57 Sure, but the proper level of "generality" is a function of the *purpose* of the specification. Think of a spec for a real time oriented language, for example. 05:00:08 So that's why I want to identify a clear property about the storage used by the values of unreferenced free variables in procedures. 05:00:15 Riastradh: OK, the spirit of your proposal is not to leak space by closures holding onto values they don't use. I'm saying it's OK to hold onto those values if you can prove they use constant space, because that's really indistinguishable from whatever constant overhead is used by the closure representation to begin with. 05:00:24 Or maybe "purpose of the thing specified" 05:00:53 (But, being a lazy bum, I actually just wanted to get the message that something about this should be included in the next Scheme report^Wstandard^Wwhatever it's called, and let someone else (e.g., jcowan) actually write the property down.) 05:01:42 foof, no. Your first sentence, about not leaking space and closures, concerns an implementation technique. In a certain implementation technique, that's what the property I want translates to. 05:02:43 No, there's nothing implementation-specific about what I wrote. 05:03:00 Closures reference values - in any implementation. 05:03:13 `Closure' is not a term in any Scheme standard. 05:03:37 I'm being deliberately vauge, and talking about the "spirit" of the proposal. 05:03:57 I'm not interested in nailing down exact terminology or the exact phrasing of the proposal. 05:04:05 That's what you're trying to do. 05:04:29 Actually, no, I'm not trying to nail down exact terminology either; I'm being a lazy bum. I think I've already conveyed an approximate idea of what I want. 05:05:20 a specification is free to word or annotate a property with "as if X" type clauses 05:06:00 Meanwhile, I was glad to see that SRFI 103 seems to be ready to rescind version numbers. 05:06:25 Riastradh - it certainly would specify a "better" Scheme IMHO 05:07:26 Incidentally, this property that I want would be the first property in a Scheme standard saying anything about bounds on the storage used by objects, and would have the consequence of precluding conservative garbage collectors. 05:08:10 Well, it would actually preclude several common "naive" implementation techniques regarding closures 05:08:15 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:16 Yes, indeed. 05:09:30 Now that I think about it, probably some text book implementations - think of the a-list style environment implementation in many texts 05:10:01 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:10:07 Where entire environments are closed over and simply searched sequentially 05:10:16 Really common place 05:11:47 Now that i think about it, I think any "self evaluating" scheme examples in textbooks would have to be 2 pass! 05:12:40 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:13:04 Riastradh: I am many messages behind in reading r6rs-discuss do to real work. 05:13:25 Riastradh: Approximately 460 messages behind, actually. 05:15:43 Summermute, few such textbooks claim to implement an entire Scheme standard. Adding this would do no harm to them. 05:16:03 True enough 05:16:29 I also, in some ways, hope that the discussion on r6rs-discuss recently serves provides more negative, rather than positive reinforcement on ideas. That is, I think we have a perfect record of how not to create the new standard now, and we might also have a nice listing of what not to do with the next standard. 05:19:47 arcfide: I feel the motivation for 'small scheme' but actually, it's hard for me to view such a minimalist standard as relevant to very much 05:21:13 Perhaps pedagogy, I suppose 05:21:44 Summermute: It's good to isolate out the core language from a host of other features. Even R6RS does that. What we have in R6RS-discuss is much much worse. 05:24:14 I can see isolating a core if the language spec is a "core + standard library(ies)" type spec. But I'd argue that one needs enough standardization in the libraries to make the spec pragmatic 05:24:36 Essentially, I think we have Scheme, sitting somewhere int he middle of a bunch of ad hoc surgeons with hack saws each haggling over how each one of them will reconstruct Scheme, each vieing for some political position of some sort, erasing all sense of continuity from Scheme (IOW, progression of the standardization effort), and fully committed to redefining Scheme as only they can see fit. 05:26:03 It also appears that many people have got in their heads somehow that nothing else in Scheme matters except having standards for everything, or for nothing. 05:26:20 Hence the need for a library/module system in the "core" language. One doesn't have to use stdio to perform I/O in C. One can use some other 3rd party (non spec) library 05:27:05 Apparently, to some people, Scheme never really did anything and no one has any libraries and there isn't any useful work being done, nor will there be, until we all eat of the fountain of the one true Scheme standard. 05:27:32 Summermute: And let's not talk about the module system. 05:27:37 Summermute: No, actually, let's. 05:27:38 Well, a ton of redundant great work has been done 05:27:45 I was about to ask where had gone the people who want to solve problems and then present solutions that demonstrably work well and speak for their own technical merit, but then I remembered that I can answer my own question by looking selfward. 05:27:45 "eat of the fountain?" 05:27:53 *foof* doesn't touch the chunky water 05:28:05 Oh dear. Is the fountain blowing chunks again? 05:28:12 Someone has got to give that thing a Pepto Bismol(TM). 05:28:14 foof: After they drink the fountain of Scheme dry, they'll consume its foundations unti nothing is left! 05:29:09 Summermute: People's attitudes about module systems haven't really changed. The camps haven't really changed. 05:29:19 The intent of those who use module systems hasn't really changed. 05:30:03 Why do people think that we're going to get anything different this time around than we got last time? Potentially, we could, but I'm guessing that happiness overall isn't going to increase compared to the current R6RS library system. 05:30:35 It's haggling over features that everyone thinks needs to or must not be there. 05:31:10 Personally, I think it's a fine goal to want a language where one can implement something with features beyond math + text io and have that something compilable by many Scheme compilers or even on many OS's/machine architectures 05:31:19 And of course, let's not forget the new wave of revolution, "Down with the implementors! What do they know?!" 05:31:41 arcfide: that's a good point 05:31:46 Summermute: The flaw in that thinking is assuming that we don't have that already. 05:32:49 If one deprecates the opinions of the implementors, one ends up with Ada :-) 05:32:54 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:33:10 Or C++ 05:33:46 I must agree that somewhere around 10 years ago, C++ became a freak show 05:34:04 Summermute: The arguments I keep hearing are things like, "I can run my code on any machine in language X, why can't I do that in Scheme?" The answer, of course, is that you can, if you constrain yourself the way the other language X does. 05:34:50 Of course, problems do exist, and there are things we need to improve, but everyone attacking the standardization effort as a way to do this appears to me to be very flawed. 05:35:03 Or you could say that X has fewer constraints on possible functionality than Scheme does 05:37:08 At least 'big Scheme' should have a core, a robust "contemporary" set of standard libraries and a standard FFI. Then one could get alot of real work done in many problem domains. 05:37:51 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:40 Summermute: I can get real work done right now. 05:38:58 Summermute: Oh, and I'd like to see you come up with an FFI that meets the needs of every Scheme system. 05:39:46 JNI sucks, but it's good that its there, in place in several Java implementations, and hard at work. 05:39:56 Summermute: And "contemporary?" why on earth does that matter? If the latest solution is the correct one, well then, great, but if we've had the correct, simple solution for ages, and some new whippersnapper comes in with a new idea of how to approach it, I want the old version, not the contemporary one. 05:40:30 Summermute: We already have FFIs, they work, should we standardize on a poor one and force everything to get stuck into that rut for who knows how long? 05:41:01 Anyways, my brain is heavy and tired. 05:41:06 I'm going to go try to read. 05:41:15 I mean problem domains: we think standard input/output is "core" for purely historical reasons. Well, history has led us to TCP/IP, RDBMS's, encryption and security, etc. 05:41:49 arcfide: read "contemporary problem domains" 05:42:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:08:37 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:44 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 06:09:59 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:40:15 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 07:03:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:20:15 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:33:59 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 07:37:52 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:04 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:57:20 -!- hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:20 -!- 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davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:02:54 what does #(0 0 -10) mean ? 09:03:39 it's a vector http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_8.html#SEC63 09:04:26 poe thanks 09:04:52 you're welcome 09:08:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:39 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:12:54 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 09:12:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:21 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:17:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:28:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:32 ASau` 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17:11:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:13:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:16:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:16:57 So mark me if I'm wrong, but the program (let-values (((pid output input error) (subprocess ...))) (sync pid) (display "boing\n")) should halt, provided the subprocess always exits after 1 second right? 17:17:19 in PLT of course e_e 17:17:35 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:18:53 Yes, yes it does. So why then... 17:19:16 -!- optimizer [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 17:23:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:34 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:24:10 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 17:26:54 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 17:32:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:33:04 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:11 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:41:26 how do I mark you? 17:41:28 :) 17:41:36 I expect that to exit, too 17:45:18 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:52 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:50:00 Yeah, just having trouble isolating the problem. For some reason in a thread I call subprocess, then sync on its pid, and nowhere in my code do I kill the thread. The process dies (as planned) yet remains a zombie, uncollected. Only when I press the button that actually calls subprocess-kill is it collected and sync returns the pid. 17:50:23 But when I made a program that does only that, it works fine. So... 17:54:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:01 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:57:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:08 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:58:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:59:40 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 18:00:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:05:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:53 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:08:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:03 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-87.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:09 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:09:16 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-120-87.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:15:11 alex__ [n=alex@ppp-2-241.21-151.libero.it] has joined #scheme 18:15:18 -!- aLeSD [n=alex@ppp-50-244.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:07 -!- alex__ [n=alex@ppp-2-241.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:17:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:19:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:21:26 TR2N [i=email@89-180-201-229.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 18:23:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:01 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:32:58 alex__ [n=alex@ppp-92-247.21-151.libero.it] has joined #scheme 18:37:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:38:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:43:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:35 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-209-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 18:44:00 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:46:00 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-201-229.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:46:03 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 18:46:41 -!- alex__ [n=alex@ppp-92-247.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:29 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:53:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:34 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:56:35 TR2N` [n=email@89-180-210-212.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 18:59:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:01:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:56 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:03:23 -!- TR2N` [n=email@89-180-210-212.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:24 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:04:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:31 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:11:36 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-209-121.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:53 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-65.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 19:36:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:10 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 19:39:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:43:14 brain_eater [n=marcin@ipd50a9312.speed.planet.nl] has joined #scheme 19:44:08 Hi, I'm new to scheme. Is cddddr and cdddar ..etc considered bad style? I find it unreadable. 19:44:43 We find it deliciously irresistable! 19:45:23 right.. 19:46:10 Warning: big-assed URL incoming: 19:46:12 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=J509&idx=J509&type=periodical&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&part=newsletter&WantType=Newsletters&title=ACM%20SIGPLAN%20Lisp%20Pointers&CFID=9006420&CFTOKEN=51291955 19:46:14 -rudybot_____:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ye3tlko 19:47:06 Posted by somebody to reddit this morning. May have ruined/made my day. It's the complete archives of SIGPLAN's defunct "LISP Pointers." Lots of tasty historical bits therein. 19:47:21 ah, well-known port 42435 19:48:37 you read all that already this morning? ;) 19:49:48 Going to tear myself away from it in ten minutes. 19:50:42 ... wonder if there's an easier way to view than downloading 200 pdfs. 19:53:10 brain_eater: I, too, find it unreadable after the first level of composition. Generally I take it as a code smell that my q&d list-as-data-structure prototype needs to become an actual defstruct. 19:53:57 zbigniew: Wish I had an easier way. I'd torrent it and save it for a rainy day. 19:54:53 This may be the impetus I needed to install DownThemAll 19:57:20 Daemmerung, thanks, good to know that. 19:57:25 -!- brain_eater [n=marcin@ipd50a9312.speed.planet.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58:01 brain_eater: imo, it is more readable to decompose these into separate steps -- either by defining a procedure e.g. (define (record-employee x) (cadr x)) (define (employee-name x) (caddr x)) (employee-name (record-employee x)) 19:58:19 or by using pattern matching, which may not be an option for you 20:12:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-105-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:48 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:18:12 Sveklo [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has joined #scheme 20:28:33 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 20:28:33 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:30 All right, I grabbed them all, except for Vol 5 Issue 4 which did not have download links. 20:32:52 TR2N [i=email@89.180.177.41] has joined #scheme 20:33:19 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:21 It's 150MiB though, I don't really have the bandwidth to host it 20:39:16 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:56 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060023699d4809.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:47:54 -!- arcfide [i=1000@140-182-144-180.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 20:51:34 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:52:31 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 20:56:14 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:12 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:17 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:13:45 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:17:05 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.93] has joined #scheme 21:19:19 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:22:37 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DC50A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:31:03 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:08 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:13 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:26 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d64-180-71-78.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:39 figured it out btw. I was blocking on a channel-put before even going into the sync 21:45:43 mental note: (delay (channel-get channel)) does not unblock a channel-put. 21:47:11 People wondering about the style of cddddr should check the RRRRRRS 21:53:48 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:54:17 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:06:06 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:11:27 cdaarrrrr, as the pirates say 22:15:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:16:12 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:16:12 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:16:12 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:16:18 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 22:16:34 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:16:36 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:24:02 uninverted [n=njs@ip98-184-78-46.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:25:02 Does scheme have a built in way of deciding whether all the members of a list are the same? I'd use (apply equal? foo) but it only takes 2 arguments. 22:32:18 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:26 xmonader [n=ahmed@82.201.228.190] has joined #scheme 22:35:37 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 22:38:37 Not built-in, uninverted. 22:38:54 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:09 Using EVERY from SRFI 1, one might write (or (not (pair? )) (every (lambda (x) (equal? x (car list))) (cdr list))). 22:42:56 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:29 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:05 You could use "reduce" with equal 22:47:01 or use something like (null? (filter (lambda (x) (not (equal? x (car *my-list*)))) (cdr *my-list*))) although this doesn't check for nonempty lists 22:48:20 zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:17 uninverted: how I'd do it: http://gist.github.com/200945 22:52:38 rudybot_____: eval (define (dumb x) (equal? x (vector->list (make-vector (length x) (car x))))) 22:52:40 Daemmeru`: your sandbox is ready 22:52:44 (null? (remove (car *my-list*) *my-list*)) 22:52:46 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053F50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:52:57 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 22:55:10 (= (length (delete-duplicates *my-list*)) 1) ; srfi-1 22:56:29 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["day overflow"] 22:57:46 just sort the list and then check (equal? (first L) (last L)) 22:58:35 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:59:41 Gödelize every element of the list, then apply = to the resulting list. 23:02:11 -!- uninverted [n=njs@ip98-184-78-46.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Ambushed"] 23:02:47 Daemmerung: yes--stringify each element, string->symbol, then apply = to the interned symbol pointers 23:02:52 brilliant 23:12:05 good Lord 23:12:09 rudybot_____: ghost rudybot 23:12:11 rudybot_____: nick rudybot 23:12:12 -!- rudybot_____ is now known as rudybot 23:14:01 All cleaned up now and ready to visit Grandma. 23:14:50 I thought he was providing a handy diving board for the communal swimming pool here 23:16:50 he lets the tailgate down when football season starts 23:19:11 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 23:19:23 Daemmerung: your solution for uninverted is twisted but oddly appealing. 23:19:41 zbigniew: Funny, I too always thought those things hanging off nicks were diving boards. 23:20:25 y'all just saying that 23:20:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:54 I left out the part where you map exact->inexact over the intermediate result. That part represents man's inhumanity to man. 23:22:24 And I saw it as a straggly goatee, grown to Fu-Manchu dimensions. 23:26:51 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:08 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:27:46 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:28:31 seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:28:37 -!- seanstickle [n=seanstic@c-68-33-221-168.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:28 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:31:00 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:32:43 -!- zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:33:12 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #scheme 23:33:21 zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:34:30 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:02 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:35:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:57 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:37:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:44:02 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:48:50 nothingHappens [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:11 or possibly protruding buckteeth 23:51:05 Daemmerung: I like it, and we can also model this step via fixnum overflow into flonums 23:53:07 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:58:14 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:58:49 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme