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00:16:25 <lmr>           The most significant of these features is the fact that Lisp descriptions of processes, called procedures, can themselves be represented and manipulated as Lisp data.
00:16:36 <lmr> :\
00:16:36 <Leonidas> offby1: awesome, I got rudybot to run on some other ircd :)
00:16:44 <lmr> Makoryu: here ^
00:19:20 <offby1> Leonidas: hooray
00:20:05 <Leonidas> starting to get the hang of if. Maybe I just print out the entire code and read through that.
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00:32:30 <Summermute> From my dad, I think old IBM'er logo for a procedure was "sub process"
00:33:12 <Summermute> logo => lingo
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01:06:52 <Riastradh> Summermute, Scheme is going to hell in a handbasket: <http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/thread.html>
01:09:18 <vixey> there's way too much to read there Riastradh what are you referring to?
01:09:32 <Riastradh> All of it!
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01:11:52 <Riastradh> I'm not sure that that many messages would fit in a handbasket, though.  Maybe a bucket or a wheelbarrow would be more appropriate.
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01:23:26 <Leonidas> way too much text to even consider reading
01:23:40 <Leonidas> better wrint out some scheme code and read that instead
01:23:43 <Leonidas> *print
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01:35:54 <optimizer> does r6rs not yhave build in queues?
01:36:03 <Riastradh> It does not.
01:36:16 <optimizer> so i'm supposed to implement it msyelf using two lists/stacks ?
01:36:28 <Riastradh> That's one way to do it, if you want persistent queues.
01:36:36 <optimizer> err?
01:36:45 <optimizer> what's the other way or doing it? supposing I want O(1) insertion, and removal?
01:36:56 <Riastradh> In amortized time or in the worst case?
01:37:01 <optimizer> worst case
01:37:04 <optimizer> wait
01:37:05 <optimizer> amortized
01:37:17 <Riastradh> In that case, a two-stack queue will suffice for your needs.
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01:37:47 <optimizer> how do you do it in worst case in scheme?
01:37:55 <Riastradh> Insertion into a two-stack queue runs in constant time in the worst case (ignoring the time taken by garbage collection).  Removal runs in constant amortized time, and linear time in the worst case.
01:37:57 <optimizer> i'm kinda curious; supppposing you don't know before hand how many elemes you need to store
01:38:27 <Riastradh> Are you willing to have destructive updates?
01:38:31 <optimizer> sure
01:38:47 <Riastradh> Then just use SET-CDR!, and remember what the last pair in your list is.
01:39:11 <optimizer> what?
01:39:12 <optimizer> omg
01:39:14 <optimizer> wtf
01:39:16 <optimizer> that is so cool
01:39:22 <optimizer> i was going to say "insertion is linear time"
01:39:29 <optimizer> byut then i saw the "remember what the past pair in your list is"
01:39:32 <optimizer> why didn't I think of this?
01:41:22 <optimizer> hmm; what's the empty condition? front == end?
01:41:29 <optimizer> it looks kiknda weird in boxes & arrows diagram
01:41:41 <Riastradh> That's one way to put it.  Another way is whether the back pair's cdr is null.
01:42:08 <optimizer> whether fhe front pair's cdr is null?
01:42:16 <optimizer> no wait; what?
01:42:20 <Riastradh> Yes, sorry, you're right.
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01:55:09 <arcfide> optimizer: I have a queue implementation if you want it.
01:55:12 <arcfide> optimizer: It's very trivial.
01:55:28 <optimizer> arcfide: sure; as long as it's public domaiuun
01:55:28 <optimizer> if it's gpled or something, i don't want it :-)
01:56:00 <arcfide> optimizer: Well, it's so trivial, I don't know if the ISC header I have on it even makes a difference.
01:56:24 <optimizer> an; dont' worry about 8t; i just got back from playing piano, going to paste my imp\lementation in a bit
01:58:10 <optimizer> this is kinda off topic:
01:58:25 <optimizer> anyone here had terrible heartbreaks in the past? if so, how do you channel taht depression into massive massive coding sessions?
01:59:24 <Makoryu> optimizer: I've heard that Hitler recommends meth
02:00:50 <optimizer> hmm; not a fan or drugs
02:00:52 <optimizer> *of*
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02:01:48 <Riastradh> optimizer, by the way, here's a nice, simple queue data structure: <http://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml/s48-optimistic-queue.scm>.  It just has a few frills to protect against concurrent access using Scheme48's software transactional memory...
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02:13:09 <optimizer>       (with-exception-handler
02:13:09 <optimizer>         (lambda (x) (display "got an exception") (newline) 1)
02:13:09 <optimizer>         (lambda () (send global-mailbox `(reshape ,width ,height) 1)))
02:13:22 <optimizer> apparently this code doedsn't "handle" the exception (i.e. the progrma still crashes)
02:13:43 <optimizer> hhWhen a program begins its execution, the current exception handler is expected to handle all &serious conditions by interrupting execution, reporting that an exception has been raised, and displaying information about the condition object that was provided.
02:13:48 <optimizer> (from chapter 7 of r6rs)
02:13:53 <optimizer> what does it mean to "handle" the serious conditions?
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02:14:30 <optimizer> This type describes conditions serious enough that they cannot safely be ignored. This condition type is primarily intended as a supertype of other condition types.
02:14:35 <optimizer> okay, so if I don't ignore it ... how do I handle it?
02:15:02 <Riastradh> What action do you want to take when you observe it?
02:15:06 <optimizer> ignore it
02:15:10 <optimizer> (for now)
02:15:16 <optimizer> i'm sending a message; and it gets a timeout
02:15:19 <Riastradh> `...serious enough that they cannot safely be ignored.'
02:15:29 <optimizer> I know; but I want to explicity ignore it
02:15:36 <Riastradh> So throw out of the exception handler.
02:15:44 <optimizer> what do you mean?
02:15:45 <Riastradh> But you still have to say what you want to do instead.
02:15:54 <optimizer> okay, I want it to do (+ 1 2)
02:16:10 <Riastradh> ((call-with-current-continuation (lambda (exit) (with-exception-handler (lambda (condition) (exit (lambda () <what to do instead>))) (lambda () <body>]
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02:16:38 <optimizer> is there no way of handling this without call/cc ?
02:16:47 <optimizer> it seems kinda "hacky/ugly"
02:17:02 <Riastradh> Well, do you want to transfer control away, or not?
02:17:14 <optimizer> I want my program to continue running
02:17:27 <Riastradh> Then you'll have to abort what it was doing by transferring control away.
02:17:28 <optimizer> is there no way I can have my handler return a "hey, smile; everything is okay" ?
02:17:29 <Riastradh> That means using CWCC.
02:17:55 <optimizer> okay; this seems different from r5rs
02:17:57 <Riastradh> No, because the reason that someone called your handler in the first place was that someone *didn't* know what to do.
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02:18:07 <optimizer> where handlers can be like "okay; we fixed everything; resume"
02:18:15 <Riastradh> No, the R5RS doesn't have condition handlers.
02:18:36 <optimizer> okay; r6rs condition handlers suck
02:18:50 <optimizer> but thanks for the hack :-)
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02:19:20 <Riastradh> What do you mean `hack'?  Either you want to transfer control away or you don't.  If you don't, you'll have to take some other action, and that presumably means that you know something about the condition, or perhaps you want to enter a debugger or something.
02:19:47 <optimizer> sorry; I don't. When i get this exception, I want to add this message to a queue
02:19:49 <optimizer> and try againlater.
02:19:53 <Riastradh> Now, the R6RS has no formal system for identifying points at which the computation can be restarted.
02:19:53 <optimizer> how do I do that?
02:21:03 <Riastradh> I gave you a general template for doing that.  Substitute adding a message to a queue and trying again later for <what to do instead>.
02:21:21 <optimizer> sure; but this still requiresx call/cc
02:21:27 <optimizer> so I'm still "transfering the control away"
02:21:33 <Riastradh> That's what you have to do!
02:21:34 <optimizer> so even if I want to "handle stuff" I still have to use call/cc?
02:21:38 <optimizer> got it; thanks :-)
02:22:01 <Riastradh> Not necessarily.  But if you want to transfer control away, because you have no other options, then you must use a mechanism for transferring control away, namely CWCC.
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02:22:45 <Riastradh> If the condition were of the hypothetical type &CONDITION-WITH-RESTARTS, and if you could select a restart from one associated with the condition, or something, then you could d othat instead.
02:23:08 <Riastradh> But if you have no other information about the condition, and you're not entering a debugger or displaying a stack trace or anything, then you must transfer control away.
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02:23:52 <optimizer> Riastradh: got it; thanks :-)
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03:07:35 <decker> hey guys, pretty off topic, but anyone ever see any code like this:  http://nsl.com/papers/origins.htm ?  supposedly it's written that way so it can actually be "read", if that makes any sense...
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03:09:05 <optimizer> wtf?
03:09:14 <optimizer> a J interpreter and "redable" ?
03:09:45 <optimizer> actually; the first 6 lines are readable
03:11:32 <Summermute> Looks alot like J's current syntax - hee hee hee
03:12:49 <Summermute> BTW, I actually think J is kinda cool - I have a "forbidden love" for terseness, I guess
03:13:03 <optimizer> is "A Implementation of J" available anywhere?
03:13:06 <optimizer> i can't find it on amazon
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03:13:33 <Adamant> that is awful
03:13:55 <Adamant> from a readability standpoint it looks like a IOCCC entry
03:14:09 <Summermute> Wow! That would be a very cool read. Love to read up on their strategies for array operations in an interpreted environment
03:14:12 <decker> anyhow, I was hoping maybe someone would know of some articles or something on the reasoning behind writing code like that.  anyone?
03:14:33 <Summermute> Do you know who wrote the book?
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03:15:13 <decker> no idea.
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03:15:32 <wingo> good day, #scheme
03:16:26 <decker> Summermute: check this out I guess: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Doc/An%20Implementation%20of%20J
03:16:42 <Summermute> decker: found it Roger Hui, 1992
03:16:53 <decker> oops.  guess that page isn't really anything at all
03:17:18 <Summermute> decker: Is that the contents page? I think I saw that one.
03:17:40 <decker> there aren't really any links to anything on that page though.
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03:23:44 <Summermute> decker: Citeseer turned up nada
03:27:16 <Summermute> decker: pity really
03:27:27 <Summermute> decker: How did J come up anyway?
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03:28:47 <decker> Summermute: from that page with the nutty C code.  someone linked to it on reddit.  they said they studied it for a week or so and then it just clicked and their programming ability has been changed ever since
03:28:56 <decker> ha, or something like that.
03:29:22 <Summermute> decker: Cool
03:29:32 <Summermute> ;-)
03:30:29 <decker> ha, except I don't know whether to believe that or not, but maybe so...this arthur whitney guy sounds pretty nuts.  came up with the K language, worked for wall street or whatever.  guess I might study the thing for a bit and see if it clicks ever.
03:30:35 <Summermute> decker: Scheme (and CL) are so verbose that it is easy to forget that it's possible to do a whole lot of computing with very few characters.
03:31:03 <Makoryu> decker: "Nutty C code?"
03:31:37 <decker> Makoryu:  http://nsl.com/papers/origins.htm
03:32:40 <Makoryu> ....wow.
03:32:42 <Makoryu> o_o
03:32:48 <Makoryu> That's...... wacky.
03:34:31 <decker> Makoryu: like I said, at least according to the guy on reddit, the idea is so that the code is actually "readable", sorta like a book.
03:34:32 <Summermute> That dude really doesn't like to type :-)
03:34:54 <Makoryu> They made C look like J
03:38:35 <Makoryu> I can't even understand the first line
03:39:30 <Summermute> You know, there are applications with users who would never ever type more than one or two lines of code. Something like J could be perfect.  I'm thinking of end users programming their TV's and other appliances, easier  interfaces to the map/directions features in cars - and so on.
03:40:23 <Summermute> Look at what they young folks can do with a game paddle (or whatever they're called these days)
03:41:21 <Summermute> Learning a terse little language could open up new functionality on alot of devices, both commercial and industrial.
03:43:37 <simon> a gamepad language
03:43:45 <Makoryu> J's type system is confusing even without the crazy syntax
03:44:37 <Summermute> The whole rank 0 thing?
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03:45:38 <optimizer> have we found "an implementation of J" yet?
03:46:19 <decker> optimizer: not I
03:46:34 <optimizer> if anyone finds it; please pm me; <-- heading back to coding
03:50:18 <Summermute> It looks like it was published by Iverson's company - chances of a free text on the Web goes down, in my estimation.
03:50:37 <Summermute> University library system might be the best bet
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04:00:36 <decker> there's an arthur whitney interview here: http://mags.acm.org/queue/20090203/
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04:18:42 *wingo* hugs case-lambda
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04:31:01 <foof> wingo: What for?
04:31:27 <wingo> multiple arities without consing, yo
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04:32:11 <wingo> it (or things like it) seems to be a prerequisite for implementing efficient multiple arity dispatch in scheme
04:32:30 <leppie> yes :)
04:32:43 <foof> not really
04:33:06 <wingo> i am curious as to your observations, foof :)
04:33:31 <foof> The first version of my compiler used it for just that reason - there was a case-lambda internal AST data-type.
04:34:10 <foof> It made optimizing multiple arity functions very easy, including inlining multiple-arity primitives.
04:34:57 <foof> But it made the rest of the code messy, and other optimizations more difficult, because I had both lambdas and case-lambdas.
04:35:36 <wingo> yes, my work has not yet percolated to the ast level
04:35:53 <wingo> prepping the vm and debugging infrastructure first
04:35:56 <foof> I could've unified everything and represented the lambdas as single-case case-lambdas, but they are still more complicated to work with.
04:36:02 <wingo> but i was thinking of having only case-lambda
04:36:06 <wingo> yes
04:36:22 <wingo> ack regarding complications.
04:36:55 <foof> So I took them out, and in the interim multiple arity functions are slower.
04:37:14 <wingo> yeah.
04:37:27 <foof> But the whole point is to streamline the AST as much as possible to make high-level optimizations easier.
04:37:33 <wingo> good point.
04:38:46 <foof> So I intend to decide on a let-optionals* syntax, and teach the compiler how to optimize the generated AST.
04:38:55 <foof> Which is more general.
04:39:49 <wingo> that's a nice idea.
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04:43:54 <arcfide> lisppaste seems to be down.
04:47:59 <arcfide> Anyways, I implemented two different types of queues and I wonder which is better? A) in and out lists; pull from the out list until empty, and then move the in to the out (reversed), and continue. B) Push to the tail and pull from the head of a single list, track the tail explicitely.  I also saw a variation on B, but it seems to be slow.
04:49:35 <wingo> do they not have similar characteristics?
04:50:25 <arcfide> wingo: I'm sorry?
04:50:45 <wingo> a and b, their performance characteristics
04:51:01 <foof> I've never seen anything other than B implemented.  Why go through extra reversing?
04:51:39 <foof> B also allows a fast queue->list operation (that shares state with the queue).
04:52:31 <wingo> there is a wealth of fun data structures in okasaki's book
04:52:38 <wingo> and implementations
04:52:56 <arcfide> wingo: Performance-wise, in Chez Scheme, on a 25,000,000 size queue sequential add all and then remove all there is a one second difference in favor of B; in a similar 50,000,000 random dequeue enqueue process where dequeueing and enqueueing happens willy nilly, the A version has a slight lead on average.
04:53:39 <wingo> one second on a baseline of what?
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04:53:44 <arcfide> wingo: The main difference in the two is that A does not use SET-CAR! or SET-CDR! and none of the pairs are mutated.
04:53:53 <arcfide> wingo: 11 vs 10 seconds.
04:54:07 <arcfide> Well, more like 12 vs 11 seconds.
04:54:57 <arcfide> wingo: So, with A, there is only a single record structure that is ever mutated. WIth B, all the pairs are mutated at some point.
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04:55:17 <foof> Oh, you're talking about a purely functional A?  That's an entirely different beast.
04:55:28 <arcfide> foof: It's not purely functional.
04:55:36 <arcfide> foof: The record structure is mutated.
04:55:42 <arcfide> But the underlying lists are not.
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04:56:26 <foof> It would be easy to make purely functional.
04:56:48 <arcfide> I've also been told that a proper queue in Chez Scheme will pop from the tail end and push on the front end with CONS, but I haven't bothered to write it.
04:57:29 <arcfide> This recommendation was of course to avoid retaining many mutated pairs in the queue and have only a single mutated pair in the queue at any one time.
04:58:13 <foof> interesting
04:58:21 <arcfide> Which is supposed to reduce strain on the Garbage collector.
04:58:37 <arcfide> I haven't bothered to think about how you do that, though.
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12:47:22 <rotty> anybody have an idea how to set $PLTCOLLECTS such that one can hack on the included collections without running "make install" after every modification?
12:48:21 *rotty* tried "PLTCOLLECTS=/PATH/TO/plt/collects:", but that causes drscheme not to start: "require: unknown module: '#%unsafe"
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13:19:31 <rotty> ok, it seems creating an empty directory to add to PLTCOLLECTS, and symlink the relevant collections into it works.
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14:21:07 <eli> rotty: collections are spliced at the toplevel directory level.
14:21:16 <eli> in case you're trying to override some files.
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16:27:46 <optimizer> suppose record foo = a b c
16:27:54 <optimizer> why do the names default to foo-a foo-b foo-c instead of foo.a foo.b foo.c?
16:28:00 <optimizer> when "foo" is like "foo-bar"
16:28:13 <optimizer> foo-bar-a foo-bar-b foo-bar-c is much harder to read than foo-bar.a foo-bar.b foo-bar.c
16:28:47 <samth> tradition
16:28:52 <chandler> This is why name-concatenating macros are a bad idea. Just pick your own names!
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16:29:25 <optimizer> hmm, I had thought he answer would be "beuse you're crazy"
16:30:30 <chandler> I don't share your aesthetic preference, but I'll argue to the death for your right to not have concatenated names foist upon you.
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16:30:48 <optimizer> someone's read voltaire
16:30:54 <optimizer> or read someone who quoted voltaire
16:31:58 <chandler> That quote is almost certainly apocryphal.
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16:35:10 <TimMc> Yeah, Voltaire was actually a dick.
16:35:21 <TimMc> ^ [citation needed]
16:36:00 <optimizer> i'm a rather big fan of Rousseau' Emilie
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17:58:46 <rotty> eli: how can I get to the underlying mzscheme port of an R6RS port?
17:59:37 <eli> rotty: no idea.
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18:03:26 <rotty> eli: telling from the code in rnrs/ports-6.ss, there is no way to do so, which makes it impossible to interface from R6RS code to, for instance, the `subprocess' procedure.
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18:04:48 <eli> rotty: sorry, I just don't know anything about it.  Asking on the list will work better.
18:05:28 <rotty> eli: ok, will do
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18:35:48 <Fare> rotty: you could use make-output-port and similar wrappers between the two kind of ports... expensive, but might work
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18:54:03 <rotty> Fare: would those ports work with the subprocess interface? I'd imagine that ports passed to `subprocess' must correspond to a filehandle...
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18:58:09 <Fare> maybe not ... maybe more inefficient wrapping around is going on
18:58:21 <Fare> but this inefficiency might not be your bottleneck, so you wouldn't care
18:58:51 <rotty> anyway, I've posted to the PLT mailing list, let's see what folks there have to say
18:59:49 <Fare> they will say "It's fixed in SVN!"
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19:05:55 <rotty> that'd be cool :-)
19:07:02 <rotty> argh, size limit hit -- need to gzip the SRFI patch
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20:12:41 <Leonidas> is there a better way to do something like (eval `(+ 1 ,@(list 2 3)))?
20:13:14 <Leonidas> background: I want to call a function with one argument and then there are . args
20:13:50 <Leonidas> I already get these as . args, so I need to unsplice them and call the new function
20:14:06 <Fare> Leonidas, apply
20:14:16 <Fare> (apply + 1 (list 2 3))
20:14:48 <Leonidas> (apply + 1 '(2 3))
20:15:00 <Leonidas> yep, just after I asked I thought of that
20:15:07 <Fare> rudybot: eval  (apply + 1 (list 2 3))
20:15:07 <rudybot> Fare: your sandbox is ready
20:15:07 <rudybot> Fare: ; Value: 6
20:15:19 <Leonidas> just didn't know that apply also supports fixed, non list arguments.
20:15:30 <Leonidas> Fare: thanks :)
20:15:54 <Fare> I don't know if it does - check your docs. It does in CL.
20:15:57 <Fare> and at least the implementation used by rudybot
20:16:15 <Leonidas> yeah, plt :)
20:16:29 <Leonidas> I'm currently hacking on rubybot, so that's fine
20:17:10 <Leonidas> *rudybot
20:18:29 <Leonidas> nice, works exactly as expected
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21:54:00 <merimus> anyone know of qt bindings for scheme?
21:55:06 <mario-goulart> merimus: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/qt
21:55:34 <merimus> thank you
21:55:42 <mario-goulart> merimus: it's a bit broken, but it exists. :-)
21:56:06 <merimus> mario-goulart: well, we can't have everything :P
21:56:49 <mario-goulart> merimus: I haven't tried the qt egg for chicken-4.  Maybe that one works.
21:56:56 <mario-goulart> http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/qt
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22:53:40 <Riastradh> arcfide, the only advantage of a two-stack queue over a front/back pointer queue is that the former can require precisely one mutation per operation, while the latter requires two per enqueue and up to two per dequeue.
22:54:09 <Riastradh> There is no need in either, ever, for SET-CAR!.
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23:10:28 <bill-hager> Anyone know of a scheme function out there that prints/displays numbers with commas(i.e. 1,000 instead of 1000)?  I'm using plt-scheme.
23:10:44 <Riastradh> I think that foof has a library to do that.
23:11:19 <Riastradh> <http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt>
23:14:17 <bill-hager> Yeah, looks like this has it!  Thanks.
23:14:48 <synx> ugh... I don't think PLT cookies can be client side at all.
23:15:06 <samth> synx: what do you mean?
23:15:09 <synx> Gotta love implementation hiding. :p
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23:15:14 <samth> cookies are by definition client side
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23:15:54 <synx> No I mean the client side cookie header generation. Cookies in PLT are opaque objects that can only be converted into strings suitable for Set-Cookie, but not Cookie.
23:16:07 <samth> ah, ok
23:16:09 <synx> There's no (cookie-name) or (cookie-value) for instance.
23:16:23 <synx> I think. I'm looking for it, but not finding anything.
23:17:04 <synx> uhh actually here's another entirely different cookie implementation hmm...
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