00:06:28 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@unaffiliated/ada2358] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:31 ada2358 [n=ada2358@login-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 00:11:05 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:14:01 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:18:13 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:13 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:21:20 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has joined #scheme 00:35:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:39:27 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-211.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:31 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-211.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:56:16 erg [n=erg@69.93.127.154] has joined #scheme 00:58:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:00:42 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-211.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:00 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:25:58 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 01:29:30 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 01:29:41 anyone have a good demo of an implicit stack in scheme? 01:29:45 probably with macros for push/pop 01:33:49 What is an `implicit' stack? 01:34:03 so I do (push) (pop) 01:34:13 err 01:34:14 you'd want something to push I assume? 01:34:17 (push elem) (pop) 01:34:35 instead of : (set! this-stack (push elem this-stack)) (set! this-stack (pop this-stack)) 01:34:36 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:35:39 Can you explain the context of your question? 01:35:47 What are you trying to demonstrate by this? 01:37:08 intellectual courisity 01:37:39 *Riastradh* blinks. 01:37:55 What prompted your question? 01:38:01 That is, what prompted your curiosity? 01:40:57 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:43 forth 01:54:34 Can you be more specific? 01:55:08 lowlycoder: just use a global variable 01:55:15 E.g., maybe `I was thinking about Forth, and I wondered how I could embed it inside Scheme so that I could write Forth-like programs [or, perhaps more accurately, Joy-like or Factor-like programs] and Scheme programs together.' 01:55:30 Or `I wonder how I could implement Forth (Joy, Factor, &c.) in Scheme.' 01:57:30 minion: sicp? 01:57:30 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 01:59:49 minion: add sicp as: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at . 01:59:49 OK, done. 01:59:56 minion: sicp? 01:59:56 sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 02:02:42 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:03:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87408 <-- is there anyway to get the *_stack_* vbar to be local to the util util module 02:03:13 instead of being in where I use top/push/... 02:03:30 so since mit is using python now, did they stop using SICP? 02:05:07 What is DEFINE-MACRO here, lowlycoder? 02:05:13 Does the (RNRS) module export it? 02:05:17 lisp-style macro 02:05:24 s/module/library/1 02:05:28 (I presume you're using version 6 of the (RNRS) library.) 02:05:32 yes 02:05:50 Gee, where in the R6RS does it say that version 6 of the (RNRS) library exports DEFINE-MACRO? 02:06:17 And, for that matter, if your DEFINE-MACRO is analogous to Common Lisp's DEFMACRO, why are you editing the stack at compile-time? 02:07:17 i'm an idiot 02:07:42 You can define a variable *_STACK_* (what are the underscores doing?) in the library, but in order for that to work, you need your macros to be hygienic -- hygiene makes that work; it doesn't work with unhygienic macros. 02:08:05 the understores do nothing 02:08:11 they're just visual eyecandy 02:08:36 how would I do this with hygiene? this looks like a problem that I can't solve with define-macro that scheme style macros solve 02:09:12 (define *stack* '()) (define-syntax push (syntax-rules () ((push item) (set! *stack* (cons item *stack*))))) ... 02:09:53 Of course, more importantly, what you can solve with standard macros which you can't with your DEFINE-MACRO is that your program won't work as you have written it, because the name DEFINE-MACRO doesn't mean anything in it. 02:10:14 huh? 02:10:26 define-macro works fine for me (not the code i pasted, but define-macro works fine) 02:11:21 Well, no, it doesn't `work fine', but I meant in particular that it doesn't work at all inside an R6RS library that imports only the (RNRS) library. 02:11:44 More generally, DEFINE-MACRO is fundamentally broken and should never be used in new code. 02:13:01 why is define-macro "more" broken in r6rs than in r5rs? 02:13:11 It doesn't work in the R5RS either. 02:13:12 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["zzz"] 02:13:29 It might work by accident, for certain examples, in implementations of the R5RS. 02:13:48 But the R6RS more precisely specifies the environment of the body of a library than the R5RS specifies the environment of a top-level program. 02:16:09 this sounds interesting abstractly 02:16:15 can you give me a piece of broken code? 02:17:20 Sorry, what? I can give you lots of pieces of broken code; here's one: (. 02:17:25 Here's another: (car 'not-a-pair) 02:17:27 http://paste.lisp.org/+1VG2 <-- syntax rules version 02:18:11 Riastradh: can you show me a pice of define-macro code that does not work as it's ecpected when ececuted in r6rs scheme? furthrmore, can you also provide me the code in ascii, not in some ro5t13 or other encrypted format 02:18:26 *Riastradh* blinks. 02:18:55 it'd also prefer you not transfer it ovber morse code by blinking 02:19:25 I'm not sure why you expected that I might have `encrypted' it with rot13, but if DEFINE-MACRO existed in the R6RS, and you tried to write your macros with it, then it would fail in this particular example, because *STACK* is not exported, so it would be undefined in the expansion in clients of your PUSH and POP macros. 02:19:44 that's why I ahve the init-stack 02:19:48 to create the var in the local environment 02:20:29 elderK [n=zk@122-57-243-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:20:55 OK. That works if you want a stack per scope, but not if yo want a global stack. Another common example of this is a DELAY macro that expands (DELAY ) into (MAKE-PROMISE (LAMBDA () )), where MAKE-PROMISE is a variable for a procedure internal to the library implementing DELAY. 02:24:36 s/ yo / you / 02:31:14 so in a nutshell, the "problem" is that varaibles in define-macro refer to the scope where the macro is _expanded_; not where the macro is defined 02:31:25 anything else 'broken' with definke-macro? 02:31:55 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-243-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 02:32:22 A little more generally, DEFINE-MACRO doesn't distinguish names introduced by the macro from names supplied by the user. This means that names introduced by the macro don't mean what they meant when the macro was defined, and names supplied by the user might not mean what they meant where the macro was used. 02:33:05 (let ((x 10)) (some-macro x)) 02:33:13 so some-macro can redefine x 02:33:17 anythihng else? 02:33:32 That's right -- or SOME-MACRO might want to refer to a binding that was named X when it was defined, but it gets the wrong binding instead. 02:44:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:52:37 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176220222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:12 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:13 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:08:45 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 03:08:57 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176219140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:03 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:18:43 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #scheme 03:18:58 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:22:31 schemer999 [n=schemer9@76.89.231.7] has joined #scheme 03:23:28 using gambit 4.5.2 the provided gambit, i get emacs lisp errors when sending expressions to scheme. only expressions which generate errors are affected. 03:25:09 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:27 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:31:00 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 03:37:32 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 03:48:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:53 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:09:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:02 DSH_ [n=anonymou@ip68-5-94-185.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:13:39 -!- DSH_ [n=anonymou@ip68-5-94-185.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #scheme 04:15:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:09 OK so... I have a file. I make a copy of it and start tracking deltas. Each delta I send via email. Once the delta gets big as the file I send "OK NEW CURRENT" email, and then deltas from the new current copy. 04:19:28 In that way I can back up this ever-changing file, without having to send it multiple times over an email. 04:21:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:21:28 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:22:01 Any problems with this algorithm? 04:23:06 Or maybe I always send only the difference between last and current versions. That'd be the smallest. 04:38:43 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:56:46 has anyone here never worked through SICP that would like to? I am going to form an SICP self-study group 04:58:45 where? online? 04:59:36 yeah right here on Freenode. 04:59:37 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzlajgojczhasxjp] has joined #scheme 05:00:02 I flipped through SICP once before. 05:00:03 Given that many people will probably burn out and quit (not claiming that I could not be one of them) I would like to try to get maybe like 15 people or so. 05:00:07 so far I have 2 05:00:15 but i have just begun. 05:01:14 I was thinking we could follow this format (the points idea is optional, that's just to make it a 'game' of sorts) --- http://club-ubuntu.org/blogs/em/learning-quest-framework 05:05:52 I'd rather a real-world group 05:07:14 emma: cool idea; but intarweb zions are so flaky 05:07:27 intarweb zions? 05:07:28 why not do it on your own, and check back with us when you get stuck/excited? 05:07:40 i dont know what an intarweb zion is. 05:07:46 3 people IRL are more likely to keep each other up-to-snuff than 15 people over IRC 05:08:01 emma: a denizen of the tubes 05:08:13 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:08:16 I now have 3 people who are on board. 05:08:43 fare well maybe it won't be 15. That was just a number. It might be 5 or 6 people with the point system to make it interesting. 05:13:46 -!- schemer999 [n=schemer9@76.89.231.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:44 jrtayloriv pasted "Why does value of applying flip alternate between 0 and 1?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87420 05:17:57 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:58 regarding my paste -- I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly ... heres what I (think I) understand so far: Basically, I am binding 'flip' to the return value of the 'let' expr., which is the procedure returned by the lambda expr. The procedure that the lambda expr. creates is 'closed' over the free variable 'count' -- i.e. the prodecure from lambda keeps a copy of the environment when it was created (which includes the 05:17:58 binding of count at that time) ... 05:19:01 (correct so far?) 05:19:13 It includes the binding at that time, but not the value stored in the binding's location. 05:19:42 Each call refers to the same binding, whose associated location may at different times hold different values. 05:23:11 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:39 Riastradh, In the case of the code that I pasted, is there any way that anything other than an application of 'flip' *could* change the value at the location of count, though? 05:26:03 (I understand that this has no bearing on your above comments, by the way -- just curious.) 05:29:02 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["bye all"] 05:30:20 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:14 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:01 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:56:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:14:25 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:18:15 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:27 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:20 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 06:34:22 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:10 rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-143-140.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:26 boringwall [n=boringwa@68.54.140.150] has joined #scheme 06:39:36 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:28 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 06:48:06 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 06:58:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:46 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo1@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 07:14:46 woot 07:14:54 i just ran 10 miles 07:19:49 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:20:02 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:48 ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:35:06 rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #scheme 07:41:50 http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2016/58709543.png 07:41:55 How would I get a list structure like that? 07:42:00 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:43:24 (define x (cons b c)) (cons (cons a x) x) 07:43:52 hmm; more like 07:44:03 (define x (cons 'b 'c)) (cons (cons 'a x) x) 07:44:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["reboot"] 07:45:31 hmmm, I kind of see how that works 07:46:46 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:47:34 Okay, I see now 07:47:34 Thanks 07:50:11 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:50:33 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:50:36 -!- Jafet1 is now known as jafet 07:51:59 I need to modify it to look like this: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2118/13122863.png 07:52:39 I'm not sure how to made the middle right cons cell point to the cdr of '(B, C) 07:52:42 make* 07:54:49 hmm; i actually don't know how to do this 07:59:46 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:07:49 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:10:09 zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:14:04 ski [n=slj@c-2111e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 08:14:55 ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:22:49 kiko_` [n=user@67.207.130.53] has joined #scheme 08:22:56 -!- kiko_ [n=user@67.207.130.53] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:28 -!- jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:36 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:51:55 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:16 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:57:15 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 09:02:27 -!- boringwall [n=boringwa@68.54.140.150] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:05 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:10:40 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:13:49 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:18:30 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #scheme 09:24:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:31:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:34:10 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:35:14 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:09 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:50:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:51:37 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:53:14 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054E75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:14 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzlajgojczhasxjp] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:59:53 masm [n=masm@bl7-196-41.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:03:54 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 10:04:38 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:10 Once I've come across a scheme-like (or maybe even scheme-based) web toolkit, including a scheme-like language, web-server and stuff... But I've lost the url and cannot find it again. What could it be? 10:05:31 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ykjdhvqqrjoiohda] has joined #scheme 10:07:19 HOP? 10:07:36 jump 10:07:50 http://hop.inria.fr/ 10:08:01 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:10:15 leppie|work_ [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-nlsiyixxykakpnxm] has joined #scheme 10:10:37 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ykjdhvqqrjoiohda] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 10:11:40 Yeah, thanks. 10:12:23 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:12:29 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:33 -!- zanes [n=zane@c-76-24-24-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:20:57 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:04 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #scheme 10:31:08 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:33:53 "This whole Web page is implemented in HOP so in addition to spreading HOP to the Web, it also serves as a meta-demonstration" ... of total and unquestioning submission to javascript. 10:40:42 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 10:43:16 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:46:28 -!- rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:26 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:49:39 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:49:41 -!- Jafet1 is now known as jafet 10:53:12 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:27 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:05:57 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:07 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:06:12 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 11:06:59 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 11:07:36 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 11:24:16 -!- lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:23 Kaonashi|away [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has joined #scheme 11:24:48 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-199-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:20 greyhame [n=jao@88.6.168.75] has joined #scheme 11:29:52 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:33:10 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:33:54 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 11:38:10 Johnno: I noticed that your linear regression label on y was not actually correct because of the inverse pd 11:38:18 -!- Kaonashi|away is now known as Kaonashi 11:39:11 also note that it is technically impossible to draw a best fit because of that diode 11:41:22 -!- Kaonashi [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has left #scheme 11:48:22 Kaonashi [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has joined #scheme 11:49:48 -!- Kaonashi [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has left #scheme 11:49:53 Kaonashi [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has joined #scheme 11:50:56 guise, 11:51:14 what are some current real-world scheme applications? 11:51:30 programs or websites or anything fairly popular written in scheme 11:53:27 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:53:36 sku [n=sk@93.190.176.95] has joined #scheme 11:53:56 There are many compilers partially written in Scheme. 11:54:02 hmm 11:54:09 anything else? 11:54:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:30 I want to continue scheme but I am wondering how my job prospects will be 11:54:35 DrScheme is written in Scheme. It is fairly popular, at least around here. 11:55:08 but isn't DrScheme just for scheme as well? 11:55:51 You can write any kind of text in it. 11:56:49 hmm 11:56:58 any cgi/web things written in scheme? 11:58:17 http://www.untyped.com/ 11:58:25 These guys work with Scheme. 11:58:50 ok 11:59:33 There is some work being done for Google in Scheme. 12:01:05 ok 12:01:08 I will continue the sicp 12:01:16 YAY! 12:01:23 :) 12:01:33 it's quite challenging 12:02:11 Kaonashi: http://www.gamerizon.com/gamerizon-news-and-media.html, in Gambit Scheme 12:02:49 hm 12:03:20 iirc the Github folks were using Scheme in a few places too 12:05:58 Kaonashi: Anyway, if all you want is something which will easily get you a job in the future, there is Cobol. 12:06:07 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:07:28 hahaha 12:07:50 that both annoys me and humors me at the same time 12:07:54 because I know it is true 12:08:17 but what about FORTRAN? 12:13:07 You would be better with Cobol, I think. 12:13:31 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:15:41 I always wished I could write in assembly, I looked at FASM 12:15:49 but it seems quite trivial 12:15:56 masm: hah there also is http://www.well-typed.com/ 12:15:57 so did MASM and NASM 12:17:26 masm1 [n=masm@bl9-113-36.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:18:49 hmm 12:18:59 -!- greyhame [n=jao@88.6.168.75] has quit ["leaving"] 12:19:11 -!- Kaonashi [n=Tanami@121.214.197.162] has quit ["You tread upon my patience."] 12:19:12 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:49 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-159.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 12:24:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:25:57 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Success] 12:28:27 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:11 -!- kiko_` is now known as kiko_ 12:32:48 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-196-41.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:12 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:41:23 zbigniew_ [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 12:43:35 -!- foof [n=user@FLH1Ahz107.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:42 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has joined #scheme 12:43:45 foof [n=user@FLH1Ahz107.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:44:06 mdg [n=miles@unaffiliated/mgroman] has joined #scheme 12:46:33 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@69.12.216.46] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:54 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 12:53:59 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:06:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:40 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:14:30 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:31 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 13:17:40 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 13:22:49 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:26:39 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has joined #scheme 13:29:16 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 13:30:02 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:30:22 jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:32:10 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:32:20 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:30 -!- sku [n=sk@93.190.176.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:38 sstrickl_ [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:34:38 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:45 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 13:39:21 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:08 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:56:41 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 13:57:57 jrtayloriv, no, only FLIP can change the value of COUNT in your example last night. 13:58:34 Riastradh, OK -- that's what I thought. Thank you. 14:01:03 rcassidy [n=rcassidy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:09 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 14:15:19 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-143-140.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:58 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #scheme 14:17:14 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:41 -!- Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:43 ejs [n=eugen@68-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:21 rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-143-140.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:31 bweaver [n=user@24-247-129-155.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 14:22:11 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:12 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #scheme 14:24:26 albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 14:26:01 -!- jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:06 samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:26:09 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:26:21 -!- ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:46 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 14:36:51 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:37:48 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #scheme 14:39:52 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:41:56 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:44:04 -!- thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:46:50 rickardg [n=user@c-4e7271d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 14:46:59 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:51:04 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:34 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:53:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:37 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 14:59:32 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has joined #scheme 15:00:59 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:16 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:28 leppie [n=lolcow@41.243.43.194] has joined #scheme 15:05:01 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:07:57 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 15:09:15 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:17 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:09:37 -!- Lemurian_ is now known as Lemurian 15:19:48 dzog [n=somebody@129.10.221.155] has joined #scheme 15:21:14 -!- dzog [n=somebody@129.10.221.155] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:33 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezhcsfylsiybrlrr] has joined #scheme 15:24:37 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:58 -!- mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:30:58 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@208.92.234.202] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:56 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:34:25 *jcowan* unvanishes. 15:34:46 *Jafet* claps 15:36:55 *jcowan* obediently vanishes again. 15:36:57 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 15:36:58 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 15:37:08 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:37:09 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@208.92.234.202] has joined #scheme 15:37:18 ...briefly 15:37:18 jcowan, memo from eli: I read. I did not laugh. 15:39:56 this logic class has gotten much more fun since I started taking notes in S-expressions 15:41:42 minion: memo for eli: My sympathies. 15:41:43 Remembered. I'll tell eli when he/she/it next speaks. 15:41:46 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 15:43:16 I really wish this weren't the logical equivalent of common lisp though 15:45:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@41.243.43.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:36 mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 15:47:11 -!- mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit [No route to host] 15:47:42 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-194.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:48:22 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:58 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:53:48 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezhcsfylsiybrlrr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:07 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 15:56:17 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:10 jay-mccarthy: ping? 16:06:16 pong 16:06:48 I'm apparently still not getting it with the URL based dispatch. 16:07:06 I set up a file, index.ss that had my dispatch rules and gen'd my index page 16:07:39 but, of course, if you click any of the HTML links it generates, it takes you off to look for a different servlet where the dispatch rules aren't defined. 16:07:54 so...how is this supposed to work? dispatch rules in one module, included by all servlets? 16:08:06 how did you generate the links? 16:08:27 ... oh. 16:08:47 right, I just did standard HTML. I need to use the blog-url func, don't I? 16:09:19 okay so you used the url function that dispatch-rules gives you 16:09:34 so why do you think the urls are to a different servlet? 16:09:56 I get an error "the file you are looking for was not found on this server" 16:10:24 what is the url of the servlet? and what url did you say you would dispatch on? 16:11:04 ie whats the rule? 16:12:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87449 16:12:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:23 so it is going to /login 16:13:30 I suspect I'm not understanding how to integrate the URL dispatch code in the first place. 16:13:47 but you aren't telling serve/servlet to give all requests to you 16:14:11 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/run_ss.html 16:14:27 look at #:servlet-path and #:servlet-regexp 16:16:54 ah. Of course. I need to tell it to answer for any of (/|index|login|register) 16:17:12 i suggest telling it to give you everything 16:17:14 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:24 and then explicitly send it back 16:17:35 or have some /static prefix or something 16:18:08 serve static files with the static prefix, have this grab and re-dispatch everything else? 16:18:14 that makes more sense. 16:18:29 ya 16:21:17 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:36 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 16:21:44 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:23:17 vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has joined #scheme 16:28:20 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:51 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has joined #scheme 16:32:44 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:49 morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 16:37:45 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable056.77-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:53 -!- morn|eri is now known as mornfall 16:42:27 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 16:44:06 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:44:13 -!- Lemurian_ is now known as Lemurian 16:44:28 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@222.sub-75-215-65.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 16:44:38 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["zzz"] 16:44:57 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:15 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit ["bbiab"] 16:55:32 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["puff"] 16:56:18 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:56:21 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 16:57:24 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 16:58:00 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 17:03:16 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has joined #scheme 17:05:06 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:09 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:55 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-23-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 17:23:57 -!- vatsal [n=vatsal@60.243.234.240] has quit [] 17:26:40 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 17:27:15 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:27:39 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:35 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:11 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:05 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #scheme 17:42:42 -!- kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:01 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:45:10 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:45:59 kniu [n=kniu@128.237.254.247] has joined #scheme 17:46:58 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:47:22 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:32 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 17:48:31 Quick question - is there an R6RS style letrec* in the PLT dialect or in an SRFI ? 17:49:12 Not in a final SRFI, for sure. 17:49:41 you may want local in plt 17:49:46 That's a pity - letrec* is a nice control form 17:49:59 as in a keyword "local"? 17:50:20 letrec is letrec* in PLT 17:50:25 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/local.html#(form._((lib._scheme/local..ss)._local)) 17:50:33 REALLY??? 17:50:37 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/let.html#(form._((lib._scheme/private/letstx-scheme..ss)._letrec)) 17:50:54 letrec has left -> righ evaluation in it's letrec? 17:51:08 whoops, eval and binding 17:51:25 No. It binds first, then evals/set!s in order. 17:51:41 Whereas letrec binds first, then evals in any order, then set!s in any order. 17:52:13 Yes, that true. "binds each variable to a fresh location" or some lingo like that, right? 17:52:19 in PLT, everything is left->right in letrec (and in let, and in function application) 17:52:58 I'll read the letrec and local docs carefully. 17:53:00 Surely not in let. 17:53:46 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 17:53:55 Well, if lambda evaluate left -> right in PLT, then why not let evaluate left-> right. But not the binding part. 17:54:34 Oh, good. 17:54:47 jcowan: evaluation is left to right, but obviously the scoping is different 17:54:50 Yes, let evals in any order desired, but it must bind/set! after evaling 17:55:24 Binding is as if 'simultaneous' in let, yes? 17:55:57 Yes. 17:56:57 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:01 The only real think i can think of from a left->right eval order for lambda and thus for let is an ability to reason logically about any side effects in the "argument" expressions. 17:57:09 -!- kniu [n=kniu@128.237.254.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:57:42 Um, I meant "benefit for" - I'm heavily medicated right now ;-) 17:57:47 mdg_ [n=miles@fivemail.nebocreditunion.org] has joined #scheme 17:59:22 -!- mdg [n=miles@unaffiliated/mgroman] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:15 Another question - is there a comfortably place for ADT style data types/matching in scheme's design? 18:03:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zrsjrpizkhzzcega] has joined #scheme 18:03:08 BTW, the notion occured to me messing around with records. So I though, hmmmm, why not just have an ADT style facility with constructor matching and destructuring? The auto-generated projection functions of records need not go away. 18:03:10 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:04:08 mdg [n=miles@adsl-68-252-62-180.dsl.wotnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:27 `ADT style'? 18:04:40 ML is next door, sweetie! 18:05:36 I'm guessing what you want is , Summermute66. 18:05:56 Riastradh: data List a = Nil | Cons a * List a 18:06:33 (Also, you probably wanted `data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)' or `datatype 'a list = Nil | Cons of ('a * 'a list)'.) 18:06:47 That sort of thing. Records are a subcase data MyRec = MyRec name * age * ssn * sisters-name 18:07:44 I'm just using ML's tuple type syntax. I apologize 18:08:24 Mixing Haskell's data type definition syntax with ML's tuple type syntax, to be precise. 18:08:26 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:45 -!- mdg_ [n=miles@fivemail.nebocreditunion.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:08:53 Summermute66: in PLT, you want `define-struct' and `match' 18:08:55 Jafet - no, I don't want to turn Scheme into ML :-) But if you look at PLT's type scheme, there's a kind of kludge with records and pure union types (not discriminated) 18:09:17 Summermute66: in what sense is that a kludge? 18:09:48 Yes, I really DO like PLT's native match facility. 18:09:48 -!- sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 18:10:01 tagged records and untagged unions is very similar to tagged unions 18:10:02 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:11:50 Well, I'm not type meister, but one issue I can see is that one 'constructur' (a record's hidden type tag) could be the member of several different union types. Seems odd and might likely even give a local type inference scheme some fits 18:12:28 *jcowan* abhors the STklos color-scheme. 18:13:18 The colour scheme of its web page, or does `color-scheme' mean something else? 18:14:04 mdg_ [n=miles@fivemail.nebocreditunion.org] has joined #scheme 18:15:19 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:34 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-kqgfqeotdfpmwxai] has joined #scheme 18:17:50 cky [n=cky@24.211.255.249] has joined #scheme 18:18:04 kniu [n=kniu@ELMUNDO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:20:31 It would be nice if all applications were easily "skinned" 18:20:32 Riastradh: Of its REPL. 18:21:06 It prints its copyright in light blue, its prompt in light magenta, and what I type in gray. 18:21:09 Bleh. 18:21:18 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezuvdfsyrrnktjnc] has joined #scheme 18:21:31 Blech! 18:21:33 *jcowan* 's eyes prefer black type on white paper, as God 'n Gutenberg intended. 18:21:50 God used stone blocks 18:21:51 minion: shut up 18:21:52 ok 18:21:52 eli, memo from jcowan: My sympathies. 18:21:54 Summermute66: you're talking about disjoint unions -- and typed scheme is modeling *scheme* code, and it (disjoint unions) is usually not something that is popular. 18:22:39 putting my own Open Office styles for code I settled on good old black for most user code 18:22:56 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-193.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:23:24 Jafet: And what color were the stone blocks, eh? 18:23:28 eli: I'm not critiquing typed scheme for what it is - I think its freakin' brilliant! 18:23:38 jcowan: Nope, they were carved! 18:24:07 jcowan, yech. Gambit isn't much better, unfortunately. 18:24:14 -!- mdg [n=miles@adsl-68-252-62-180.dsl.wotnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:16 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:24:36 Summermute66: I'm not defending it either -- just pointing out the design decision that any unions. 18:24:50 That any unions...? 18:24:53 I'm just wondering if there would be 'space' in scheme's design from something like ADT's. Comments on typed scheme were an aside. 18:25:22 Summermute66: And btw, I've asked Sam to support a notion of disjoint unions for a really long time -- and I teach my class using something very close to that. 18:25:31 Scheme does have types -- on values. 18:25:44 (You never finished your sentence, eli.) 18:25:48 s/any unions/any unins are allowed/ 18:25:57 s/unins/unions/ 18:26:01 -!- cky [n=cky@24.211.255.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:21 Jafet: What does the fact that they were carved have to do with color? What's more, stones often aren't the same color underneath as on the surface. 18:26:21 Summermute66: different structs are disjoint in PLT 18:26:22 But "any unions" is bad phrasing for "non-disjoint unions". 18:26:28 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:08 what's the terminology they use for C's unions vs. Pascals "discriminated unions"? 18:27:20 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-159.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:27:24 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:44 Man, it's been too long since I had a good workout with C :-) 18:28:07 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:28:30 The text isn't in the colour of a surface, but in the shape of the stone 18:28:39 samth: yes, that's true. 18:28:42 I know it's true, my picture bible stories book told me! 18:29:37 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:39 -!- mdg_ [n=miles@fivemail.nebocreditunion.org] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:47 eli: disjoint unions/recurisve ADT's/etc. data type are a *really* elegant abstraction 18:30:31 In a statically typed world, yes. In a dynamically typed world, they are just records. 18:30:57 Summermute66: How are disjoint unions related to recursive ADTs? 18:31:05 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has left #scheme 18:31:43 (jcowan: They are an elegant abstraction in *both* statically typed and dynamically typed worlds.) 18:34:22 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-kqgfqeotdfpmwxai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:09 From my staggered learning of ML and a little Haskell, I hear the ADT, GADT terminology used for these type of datatypes. 18:35:32 Although I still don't grok GADT's yet 18:36:25 They're different terms, the former is very broad. 18:37:36 Oh yes - Abst Data Type is very broad. I think (not sure) that ADT stands for algebraic data type in this other more limited context. 18:38:26 BTW, I googles for C unions and the term "undiscriminated unions" comes up quite a bit. Inelegant, but makes sense. 18:45:16 Oh, another big difference between discriminated unions and records - all of the constructors of the DU have the same type, while records each have their own type. So in the definition of List above, the implementation of pair? would have to use match internally. 18:45:51 Just for example. 18:49:11 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:49:30 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:51:42 fyi: on adt terminology - http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GADTs_for_dummies 18:53:04 fyi: much better - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_data_type 19:01:42 -!- leppie|work_ [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-nlsiyixxykakpnxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:01:42 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@pool-151-199-30-68.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:43 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:06 `This paper...contains numerous examples of practical GADT usage -- theme completely omitted from my article.' That should be at the top of the page; what good is a `foo for dummies' if it doesn't explain in dummies' terms what foo is good for? 19:03:31 Agreed 19:03:55 Well, X for Dummies often explains how to use X rather than the uses of X. 19:04:27 Take a look at , jcowan, and let me know if it has told you anything about how to use X, where X here is GADTs. 19:04:29 Everything I've read on GADT's talks about "the expression problem" - yeah, that problem has be really chapping my ass lately ;-) 19:06:00 Sorry, not to sound anti-intellectual. But there are "modes" of speech, and too often the functional language folks write on a web page or tutorial as if they were writing a paper for their peers. 19:10:32 Well, by golly, I just noticed that PLT units and signatures are the same as Haskell's instances and classes, just without type inference to choose the unit for a given signature. 19:11:51 Or maybe akin to SML's "records" and "signatures" 19:12:14 You mean `structures', I presume, not `records'. 19:12:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:12:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:24 whoops, yup - 19:14:24 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezuvdfsyrrnktjnc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:36 jay-mccarthy: hey, interesting questions for you. I'm running the server locally. When I hit "http://localhost:8000/" I see the PLT banner page. I have #:listen-ip #f set. When my co-worker hits that http:// Riastradh: units and type classes are really not the same thing 19:14:58 There is a somewhat subtle difference there, however: structures are not first-class, whereas PLT units are, and Haskell instances almost are. 19:15:07 Of course they aren't, samth. 19:15:29 PLT units are very similar to Haskell instances, however, and PLT signatures to Haskell classes. 19:15:33 I have had the chance to read through the units/signatures docs some weeks back, and I really didn't get a big happy about how exactly these would be useful in a typical scheme program. 19:15:33 so, question(s): given that I have #:command-line? #t set, why do I see the banner? and why would he not see it? 19:15:55 sorry, my terminology was unclear 19:15:57 What distinguishes Haskell's instances from PLT's units is that Haskell's instances are chosen automatically by type inference. 19:16:04 It's possible to do type inference in the syntax phase with PLT, Riastradh, just not in runtime. 19:16:07 dstorrs: sure you are using the right port and ip? 19:16:24 by 'units' i meant the plt unit system, and by 'type classes' i meant the Haskell type class system 19:16:24 (And thus Haskell's instances are more convenient but less flexible than units.) 19:16:31 and they really aren't the same thing at all 19:17:02 except that they're both systems for abstracting over code 19:17:26 jay-mccarthy: yep. Just confirmed it. 19:18:16 PLT unit are similar to, but more expressive than, ML-style modules 19:18:27 Riastradh: When an article's TOC has "7. Random rubbish from earlier versions", I don't bother reading the non-random rubbish presumably composing the rest. 19:18:42 The two can work the same way to serve a common purpose, samth. Certainly, each one can also serve other purposes (units & signatures, linking; instances & classes, type-directed inference of which instance to use). 19:18:45 and there's a correspondence between ML modules and Haskell type classes (there are some papers about that) 19:18:53 Has anyone ever found it profitable to use units/sigs in a PLT program before? 19:19:05 Summermute66: yes, whenever you need recursive modules 19:19:18 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo1@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:19:31 dstorrs: which index do you mean? 19:19:52 we have a function (define (index-page req) ...) 19:20:11 Summermute66: BTW, see the wikipedia pointer you mentioned -- and search that page for the only instance of `ADT'. 19:20:30 the dispatch rules show it on "" and "else..." 19:20:47 oh so you ARE getting the web-server... but you are getting the default and he is getting what you want? 19:21:04 ie does weird things with local file caching btw 19:21:09 Ok, I'll keep that one in mind. But we are talking about 'modules' different from top of the file/namespace mgmt modules, yes? 19:21:21 not local file but localhost 19:21:40 jay: we're using firefox 19:21:52 Summermute66: no, if you want to have different peices of code that are like modules, but recursive, you use units 19:22:10 Riastradh: this is a good overview of the relationship between ML modules and type classes: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~wehr/publications/WehrChakravarty2008.html 19:22:10 jay-mccarthy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87460 19:22:12 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/njogkp 19:22:21 jay-mccarthy: exactly. 19:22:30 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:22:42 all the other dispatch rules work fine for both of us. It's only the empty one that is different 19:23:19 Eli, I can recall it. Just wanted to point out that "alg data type" term, and like GADT, fact is, lots of literature uses ADT for variants, etc., "pick one's favorite terms" 19:23:45 samth: right 19:24:07 Riastradh: also http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~chak/papers/DHC07.html 19:24:48 dstorrs: i can't reproduce it 19:25:11 dstorrs: i would make sure you aren't getting a cache... look at the wire.. etc 19:25:25 dstorrs: send me that info if it is obviously wrong 19:26:12 hmmm...when I go to http://:8000/, I see our index-page. when I go to http://localhost:8000/ I see the banner page. 19:26:24 so it's something about my 'localhost' settings, I guess. 19:26:31 would it matter that I'm on OSX? 19:27:52 jay-mccarthy: ok, will do. Thanks. 19:28:37 dstorrs: i use os x and it is fine 19:29:57 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has joined #scheme 19:30:06 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["-_-"] 19:32:20 Well, I read , the umpteenth introduction to GADTs, and I still haven't a clue what they're good for beyond inundating readers with contrived examples demonstrating nothing. 19:32:29 The umpteenth introduction to GADTs that I've read, I mean. 19:33:34 -!- nothere [n=nothere4@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 19:33:49 argh. yep, was cache issue. Thanks. 19:34:23 dstorrs: np 19:35:25 Most of the examples, furthermore, are of the form `Suppose you want to implement an interpreter for a useless language, such as the SK calculus, and graft Haskell's type system onto the language...' 19:36:31 *jcowan* laughs. 19:37:56 Riastradh: read his paper on finger trees... that is useful gadts 19:40:01 What paper? ? A quick glance through that doesn't show anything about GADTs. 19:42:10 hmm maybe i am thinking of a different one 19:43:52 Riastradh: The interpreter example - EXACTLY!!! 19:45:36 there's an ltu article about this: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1293 19:46:24 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-231-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:35 darcs also uses them, i believe 19:46:44 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 19:46:47 Darcs optionally uses them, if I recall correctly. 19:47:37 Gotta love LTU. I'll admit, I'm a LTU junkie :-) 19:47:42 are GADTs some kind of contrived existential types? 19:48:18 Fare: no 19:48:26 No, Fare, but I think they're sort of the opposite of existential types in that they introduce type guarantees that existential types break; or, if you put GADTs and existential types together, it's like matter and antimatter or something. 19:49:02 the LTU article links to an introduction 19:49:13 mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:49:49 will my time be well-spent reading it? 19:50:22 It's your time. 19:50:37 aren't they a variant/discriminated union/algebraic style datatype where the constructors can somehow return values of *different* types? 19:50:42 I've read about a dozen `introductions' to GADTs, Fare, and my reaction is still `Gosh, y'know, writing a provably type-safe evaluator for the SK calculus in Haskell just doesn't seem to be a problem that rears its head before me all the time.' 19:50:44 did you find YOURS well-spent reading that? 19:51:21 how does that compare to type systems for staged ML, etc.? 19:51:41 So far, I have not found an introduction to GADTs that my time was well spent reading. 19:53:12 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:21 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 19:54:54 samth, I looked at all the links at , and not one of the ones I saw was to an introduction to GADTs. Maybe I'm too blind to see them just as I am too stupid to understand what the fuss is all about. 19:55:24 *jcowan* joins Riastradh in the ranks of the blind and stupid. 19:55:48 R: The whole page is a discussion about whether or not GADT's are useful and how 19:56:43 what about the last remark by Josef Svenningsson? 19:57:41 Riastradh: i don't think there are any introductions that include a non-trivial use 19:57:51 Do there *exist* non-trivial uses? 19:57:53 at least, not that i've seen 19:58:02 that's what's linked to on that page 19:58:06 Type safe data marshalling is mentioned and is quite useful, especially for a lang that has concept of type casting :-) 19:58:09 darcs, the contract lib, etc 19:58:37 whoops - lang without type casting 19:59:26 R: no papers that I've seen 20:00:06 n0nsense [n=n0nsense@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has joined #scheme 20:00:08 hi 20:00:13 If one must be a published academic entrenched in the field to understand the better type safety properties that the GADTs offer, do they actually help to make more reliable programs more easily? 20:00:42 Me and a friend want to learn scheme, I installed guile yesterday and played around with it 20:01:03 n0nsense: Not one of the better Schemes to pick, really. 20:01:08 For that purpose. 20:01:14 so, I was told guile was not very good 20:01:21 yeah 20:01:26 Hallo jcowan. 20:01:30 now I wonder which scheme implementation I should use 20:01:35 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit ["so long.."] 20:01:46 scheme48? scheme9? ^^ 20:01:55 Hey ho, chandler. 20:02:07 I like scheme9's description :-D 20:02:08 A lot of folks here use PLT Scheme. Scheme48 is also quite good. Chicken is well-liked (although not by me). 20:02:26 PLT Scheme is very slick and has great documentation 20:02:37 scheme9? 20:02:42 Is that this? http://www.t3x.org/s9fes/ 20:02:58 scheme9 - Scheme 9 from Empty Space R4RS Scheme interpreter 20:03:08 "scheme 9 from empty space"... made me laugh 20:03:11 Don't bother. 20:03:24 You want an implementation of the R5RS, or something close to it. 20:03:35 That's good if you want to learn how to *implement* Scheme, but not if you want to learn to use it. 20:03:51 Riastradh: i think gadts are not anywhere close to the 'more easily' part of that 20:04:42 yeah 20:04:48 I like the description 20:05:03 I did not say I had any clue which scheme I want to take 20:05:22 I just was told guile was not very good and some things would be disgusting using guile 20:05:47 Right. That's sensible advice. 20:05:54 PLT is probably best for learning from scratch, though I haven't used it personally, plenty of people I respect like it. 20:06:18 also, I couldn't get srfi working with guile 20:06:41 well then, PLT... thanks :-) 20:06:47 PLT comes with a full development environment (DrScheme); if you're looking for something to just use with emacs, I'd say to give Scheme48 a try as well. 20:07:47 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:07:50 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:08:04 I'm a vim user (but not an ignorant vim user, I think emacs has it's right of existence but I never used emacs) 20:08:05 Oh, - what kind of box are you running? 20:08:30 the same person who told me guile was bad told me emacs is a great editor especially for lisp earlier 20:08:35 so I will maybe give it a try 20:08:51 Summermute66: debian sid or what do you want to know? 20:09:17 gotcha - you'll have lots of good options 20:09:49 There's larceny (an actual compiler) and Bigloo too 20:12:40 I wouldn't recommend Bigloo until they fix macros. 20:12:40 hm... 20:13:04 another thing... why scheme and not clisp? 20:13:18 Less messy, more powerful. 20:13:35 I'm assuming you mean Common Lisp, not that one particular implementation of it. 20:13:48 Heck with clisp, you can run sbcl 20:13:50 OTOneH Common Lisp (clisp is just one implementation) comes with more batteries. OTOtherH, they are sometimes rusty. 20:14:04 It's a pretty nice lisp compiler for free 20:14:06 ah, found the details in the scheme wiki :-D 20:14:07 "more powerful" is likely to cause arguments; you could say "more expressive" and be closer to the truth. 20:14:45 CL can't do general continuations, thus strictly less powerful, short of rewriting everything. 20:14:51 In Common Lisp, there are more libraries that will deceive you into thinking that they work until you try to organize large programs. In Scheme, you won't find them in the first place, unless you restrict yourself to a particular Scheme system such as PLT Scheme. 20:14:51 chandler: yes, I mean common lisp at all 20:15:03 It's difficult to find a Scheme implementation that provides all of the features that are available in some of the more popular implementations of Common Lisp. 20:15:14 jcowan: Not everyone has the same definition of "powerful". 20:15:14 sku [n=sk@93.190.176.95] has joined #scheme 20:15:50 But as messy as it may be, CL is pretty much 'industrial strength' out of the box 20:16:19 Riastradh: I keep hearing this, and it still sounds to me like the arguments that the static typers make against dynamically typed languages. I *have* organized large programs in Common Lisp. 20:17:05 You could describe the *benefits* of a module system, but asserting that it's impossible to organize large programs in Common Lisp is simply false on the face of it. 20:17:41 chandler, as I said earlier: you personally may have been able to keep your large, hairy Common Lisp programs straight, but Common Lisp makes it very, very easy to screw that up. The basic problem is that programs are organized by effects which are hard to control and isolate. I imagine Fare has a good deal to say about this, by the way. 20:18:31 I was perusing CL implementation's some months back, and it seems like they have finally gotten their FFI standard act together (I think de facto, no de jure). That a REALLY BIG PLUS. 20:18:42 if scheme is so lightweight, what's the use of it then? 20:18:46 e.g. what do you use it for? 20:18:57 Yes, he has had a good deal to say about this, and I would not dispute that it is very easy to screw up. However, to someone who does not understand the *advantages* of module systems, it's a bit like asserting that it is impossible to write working software in C (which I have often said myself). Most people will simple write it off as a bad attitude. 20:19:26 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:26 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:58 C is much harder to screw up in this respect than Common Lisp, because load order and phases are not even concepts that arise in C. 20:20:09 That is, phases for evaluation. 20:20:27 jcowan: CL can do general continuations with one of the many available cl-in-cl-with-cps transforms, at which point it is much slower than a decent Scheme implementation. 20:20:39 C does exhibits similar problems in header files, to be sure. 20:20:42 `does exhibit' 20:20:57 Riastradh: Yes; I was referring to the other aspects of C that make it impossible (in general) to write working software. 20:21:17 Fortunately, the world has gotten along well for 60+ years with non-working software. 20:21:20 Nonetheless, despite the impossibility, I use quite a lot of software written in C and variants. 20:21:22 Summermute66, CL comes with *some* stuff out of the box. Various Scheme's come with *some* different stuff out of the box. 20:21:32 Summermute66, depending on what stuff you need, use Java. 20:21:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:04 jcowan, it's gotten along well for 6e9 years+ with non-working software. 20:22:08 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 That's without software altogether. Different thing. 20:22:36 Working software is like the bumblebee. 20:23:03 Sure, I was an early enough adopter of Java and servelets that we took a trip out to Sun to talk to some of the Java folk - '96 I think. 20:23:07 without software implies without working software, unless you're arguing that working software is not software 20:23:24 `Without working software' is different from `with non-working software', of course. 20:23:34 (just like military intelligence is not intelligence, social justice is not justice, or intellectual property is not property) 20:23:38 Fare: Yes, your statement is trivially true, and with it you can silence any purple rhinoceros you happen to meet. 20:24:19 hmmh 20:24:20 maybe you meant "with non-working software" rather than "without working software" 20:24:24 drscheme looks weird 20:24:42 Riastradh, stop preempting me. 20:25:01 Fare: I meant what I said [viz. "non-working software] and I said what I meant! / An elephant's faithful, 100%. 20:25:08 In any case, Scheme is mostly good for inspiring some truly impressive enthusiasm to debate truly impressively irrelevant minutiae. 20:25:11 Fare; But I was talking about the CLtL2 feature set (standard object system, yada yada yada) 'out of the box' 20:25:30 See for a truly impressive summary. 20:25:33 jcowan, yes, but is the English language you're speaking the same as the English language I am speaking? 20:25:46 Summermute66: Most implementations of CL do not provide the CLtL2 feature set "out of the box", but rather the ANSI feature set. 20:26:02 Fare: All except for one flutzpah. 20:26:24 Summermute66, 1- that doesn't get you very far, 2- STklos, PLT Scheme, etc., have as much 20:26:25 R: LOL !!! 20:27:08 Riastradh, is that list where the action is wrt discussing the next Scheme standards? 20:27:18 chandler: roger that, I'm dating myself 20:27:21 It's where discussion is; I'm not sure about "action". 20:27:22 So, Fare, how's the build doing over at ITA? Is XCVB building any of the large projects yet? 20:27:31 Fare, ha! `Action'. I like the way you say that word. 20:27:32 yes and no. 20:27:36 yes it can 20:27:45 no officially we haven't switched over. 20:27:50 a few things to cleanup. 20:28:10 How long did it take to make that work? Are any dependencies actually enforced yet? 20:28:16 I used to be able to stay abreast of the developments in the Scheme world to my satisfaction. Now, I can hardly follow #scheme, much less R6RS-discuss! 20:28:18 damn, now I started a scheme flamewar without even knowing anything about scheme :-D 20:28:23 including the fact that... it's slow to load a few hundreds of CFASLs before you compile you late source files... 20:28:28 Fare: I've been posting my ideas for R7RS small Scheme there, which have drawn a huge amount of commentary. If you wish to see the revised and corrected versions of my views, see http://tinyurl.com/thing-one . 20:28:32 (but there are hopefully ways around that) 20:28:48 Riastradh, dependencies have been enforced since day one with XCVB 20:29:02 but we're probably going to offer a non-enforcing build, too, for speed. 20:29:17 Given how slow FASL (which might as well be SLOL) loading is in SBCL, I hate to think about the speed impact of adding CFSLs to the build process. :-) 20:29:18 Fare, really? So if I defun FOO in a.lisp and BAR in b.lisp which depends on a.lisp, does c.lisp which depends on a.lisp see no FOO? 20:29:20 until we find ways to optimize the dependencies and/or the enforcing build. 20:29:38 Riastradh: I assume you mean that c.lisp depends on b.lisp? 20:29:45 chandler, oops, yes. 20:30:06 Riastradh, that's the whole idea -- you only see what you declare you need to see (and the transitive dependencies) 20:30:15 That is a transitive dependency, though, Fare. 20:30:18 otherwise you're not enforcing anything 20:30:26 On CL, I'm still not so sure. My buddy runs Harlequin CL (or whatever company is these days) with the super fancy IDE and the CLOS based GUI library. All together, it's a pretty impressive package (for $$$ of course) 20:30:30 How can you *not* see that in Common Lisp? 20:30:33 c.lisp directly depends only on b.lisp, but transitively depends on a.lisp. 20:30:40 if the transitive dep is declared, you see it. If you miss the declaration, you deterministically fail. 20:31:07 OK. So there may still be a lot of undeclared direct dependencies that work because of accidental transitive dependencies. 20:31:21 Summermute66: LispWorks? It's a fairly impressive package; it looks like version 6.0 will be even nicer (the Linux GUI is *finally* getting off Motif, and native threads are being added). 20:31:47 however, I'd like to see how much it helps to distinguish compile-lisp dependencies load-cfasl dependencies and load-fasl dependencies... 20:31:48 They desperately need to hire a graphic artist to replace the 8-bit 16x16 icons littering the interface. 20:32:25 Riastradh, whether it's a bug or a feature is debatable. But the main feature is that you can't go wrong unnoticed. 20:32:46 and suddenly break because of a latter innocent refactoring. 20:32:47 Fare: I'm eager to see the results; I think enforcing proper behavior wrt phases is a good step. 20:33:20 chandler, XCVB works and can be downloaded already. As to see QRes, you won't unless you work at ITA. 20:33:30 Sure you can go wrong unnoticed, Fare. You can go wrong for a very long time with an undeclared dependency, and as soon as you decide that you didn't actually want to call BAR in c.lisp, and remove its dependency on b.lisp, something unrelated to b.lisp and BAR may break. 20:33:38 Oh! Apparently I missed that it had been released. 20:33:54 chandler: LispWorks would be too rich for my blood these days ;-( 20:34:26 Yes, it's fairly expensive, though cheaper than "if you have to ask" Allegro. 20:34:39 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:48 If you're on a Mac, the next version of CCL is shaping up to be a fairly nice environment as well. 20:35:52 Riastradh, well once again, it's just as moving around a #include in your C files. 20:36:06 In any event, this is wildly off-topic for #scheme. 20:36:20 Of course, when the dependency graph is very deep, the situation won't be as easy as this, because it might be that f.lisp uses FOO from a.lisp, and there's a chain a.lisp -> b.lisp -> c.lisp -> d.lisp -> e.lisp -> f.lisp, and it got broken somewhere around c.lisp. 20:36:52 if you change your code, clients may or may not break -- but whether or not they do will be immediate and deterministic with XCVB, rather than deferred and non-deterministic with ASDF. 20:37:28 if you don't often compile clients, you may not catch the breakage immediately. 20:37:45 But if you do compile clients (as we do with QRes) then you'll detect the breakage at once. 20:38:04 Fare, it's almost the same as moving inclusions in C, but not quite: when organizing the source code of a program, in many cases, while b.c might use functions defined in a.c, and thus include a.h, b.h might not include a.h, and thus c.c won't include it either. 20:38:14 Whoever changed the code, broke the clients, and has to fix them (or revert that API change). 20:38:49 Those `might not's should really be `often won't's. 20:38:50 I consider that not-a-bug in xcvb -- but a normal hassle of software development. 20:39:01 chandler: Of course, it would now be appropriate to drop in the relatively inexpensive price of Chez Scheme. :-P 20:39:16 what you :depends-on is part of your API. 20:39:38 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.212.249] has joined #scheme 20:39:41 arcfide: And how much is that? 20:39:48 (which is why I really should distinguish :compile-depends-on :cload-depends-on and :load-depends-on in practice) 20:39:50 Why isn't what you :DEPEND-ON an implementation detail, Fare? 20:39:54 But back to Scheme (as in vs. CL), to be as gentle as possible, once Scheme started to break out of its exclusively pedagogical (and then research) role, I think the promise of "Scheme in the real world" is still unfulfilled, and I'm not sure why. It's a lovely language, but there's hardly any working software out there in the public sphere. Compare to Perl and Python, and well, it's just a little embarrassing. *What's wrong in t 20:39:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:04 what you :compile-depends-on is 20:40:05 Summermute66: You got cut off at "What's wrong in t" 20:40:11 chandler: I think a developer license is between $700 and $1300. 20:40:16 what you :load-depends-on or :cload-depends-on isn't. 20:40:29 (NB: I didn't add :cload-depends-on yet) 20:40:35 What's `cload'? 20:40:39 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-4e7271d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:40:45 load the cfasl (as opposed to the fasl) 20:40:50 OK. 20:40:54 i.e. what clients see. 20:41:00 as opposed to what you see. 20:41:03 By the way, for getting people up to speed with Scheme quickly, what books do you recommend? 20:41:14 you being a general plural addressed to the entire #scheme channel. 20:41:16 arcfide: What prior experience do they have? 20:41:17 So why are those not implementation details as well? Who cares whether the scheduler is implemented using a binary heap module versus a red/black tree module for its priority queue? 20:41:22 arcfide, starting from what? From scratch, I'd say HtDP. 20:41:25 *What's wrong in the house of Scheme* ???? 20:41:35 Ergotism, Summermute66. 20:41:42 chandler: Varied, but significant and non-trivial academic programming experience. Java, C, Lisp. 20:41:44 Summermute66: I think putting Scheme in the same sentence as Perl and Python is the first part of what's wrong. 20:41:58 Riastradh, two issues -- load order vs namespace. 20:42:09 XCVB unhappily only helps you with the former (at this point) 20:42:20 Fare: HtDP is not a book about getting people up to speed with Scheme. It's about teaching someone how to program. 20:42:20 but hopefully namespace issues can be solved on top. 20:42:22 SICP is free online 20:42:29 arcfide: Is a book really required? If so, maybe TSPL? 20:42:43 chandler: Probably some sort of resource will be necessary to make sure that they aren't lost. 20:42:53 XCVB is just (require ...) on steroids. 20:43:00 chandler: TSPL is of course a definite first choice, but it's pretty terse. 20:43:18 is doesn't solve the SCREAMING MADNESS that is the CL package system. 20:43:51 Chandler: But let's facy it - Perl and Python *PRODUCE* (or their users do) That's why I compare them to Scheme 20:43:52 gtg. 20:43:58 Thanks for the conversation. 20:44:03 I'm assuming that "significant and non-trivial academic programming experience" would prepare someone to understand a book that's as terse as TSPL, but perhaps those who have not read EoPL or similar first will be lost. 20:44:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:44:58 Summermute66: What I mean by that is that Perl and Python are both languages and their canonical implementations; "Scheme" (as eli would put it) is not the same kind of animal. 20:45:50 chandler: I am slightly concerned that some of them may not have had enough experience with functional programming, but I suppose I will deal with that when I encounter it. 20:46:26 Oh, you mean multiple implementations? Ok how about MS/Borland/Watcom C++. They certainly are responsible for the software into which literally millions are typing at this very moment. 20:46:30 Actually, it's funny, because on my Team I have myself a Scheme programmer, another Perl programmer, a Python programmer, and a C programmer. :-) 20:46:50 nothere [n=nothere4@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:47:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:47:42 I'm not criticising scheme - Scheme is WAY Cool - i'm just wondering what's "missing" or "askew" compared to other languages people use to crank out software for other people. 20:48:02 arcfide: Well, there's always TLS. Or you could just lock them in an office with Dan Friedman for two days. 20:48:34 arcfide; sounds like the beginning of a joke :-) 20:48:35 Summermute66: Well, I certainly don't see regular expressions, a HTTP client library, POSIX, etc in "Scheme". 20:48:35 Summermute66: People produce lots of Scheme code every day. You just don't hear about it. That could be the problem. ;-) 20:48:51 chandler: That would really be interesting. :-) 20:49:29 chandler: Well, we're going to be using his miniKanren for some things, and the combination of myself, plus logic and functional programming a need for speed and a desire not to do the project in C leads us invariably to use Scheme. :-) 20:50:00 chandler: Hey! There's a Sockets library in Scheme. :-) And regular expressions! What are you gettin' at, bub? :-) 20:50:15 So we can say that instead of the little scheme vs. big R7RS, it may be much more profitable to get together and hash out a really hardcore, purpose driven scheme standard library ???? 20:50:29 Summermute66: Good luck with that, dude. 20:50:50 I don't believe that such efforts will work very well without some de facto agreement already existing. 20:50:55 Who gets to choose the purpose, Summermute66? 20:50:57 Well, you can practically use minikanren with an understanding of logic programming; understanding the internals is going to be a real acid trip for anyone who is already not knowledgable in the ways of Scheme. 20:51:18 Shoving a top-down solution on the Scheme community is like trying to hand feed a pit of the most venemous creatures known to man. 20:51:23 Summermute66: No; I think my point is (still) that Scheme is not the same kind of animal as Python. 20:51:45 chandler: No need to understand it. :-) 20:52:25 So, what interesting projects are you folks all working on in Scheme right now? 20:52:27 I like to borrow rather than invent when possible - so I'd survey the libraries and frequency of use of other languages in common use. 20:52:37 arcfide: Right; so I'd say to have them read the examples that come with the minikanren distribution, and see if they can figure out what to do from there. Oh, and a copy of the R5RS. 20:52:48 Also, arcfide, your patch to Scheme-CML's Darcs repository hasn't reached my inbox yet. 20:53:00 Riastradh: I'm working on making a scheme-based multiuser world. 20:53:13 chandler: so what kind of animal is it? A "not production software" animal? ;-) 20:53:15 I don't even know how to pronounce MUW, synx. 20:53:32 Riastradh: Sorry, I got tied up, I'll try to get that to you some time. 20:53:35 ah, another question 20:53:42 what scheme tutorial do you recommend? 20:53:55 Summermute66: A language, not an implementation. 20:54:13 *n0nsense* downloaded "scheme in fixnum days" yesterday 20:54:26 It comes out like `mow' as in `lawnmower' or `Maui'. 20:54:27 can you recommend any other tutorials? 20:54:29 Riastradh: https://synx.us.to/image/69b/gif/kt-abc-mu_.gif 20:54:31 n0nsense, don't waste your time with that. 20:54:47 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:55:41 Riastradh: not a good one? 20:55:57 n0nsense: What is your programming experience? 20:55:59 Indeed not, n0nsense. It has some very badly written code and is very outdated. 20:55:59 I just call it a MU* 20:56:04 The asterisk is silent. 20:56:26 chandler: Oh, well, we're not using miniKanren exclusively; we're just using it for the parts where it will make sense. :-) 20:56:28 Riastradh: To answer your question, I'm writing a compiler in Scheme and in PLT's typed scheme dialect. 20:56:42 What are you going to use that compiler to do, Summermute66? 20:56:46 arcfide: I know python, C, Tcl and lua but no functional language 20:57:11 (I will start with SML in a few weeks) 20:57:26 n0nsense: How much formal programming education (either self-taught or via some educational entity) have you had? 20:57:36 uhm... 20:57:56 wha? 20:58:00 <- tired :( 20:58:21 I had pascal at school 20:58:34 and everything else is mostly self-taught 20:58:39 It's an ML + CL demon love child made kinda friendly language for the average joe. I've been thinking hard about domain specificity - perhaps for my good friends fancy document search system - but I can't say for sure. 20:59:38 starting with python when I was 13 (got a book on my 13th birthday) 21:01:06 Ooh, you too? Careful, self taught earns no degrees. 21:02:05 n1nsense [n=n0nsense@k.it.cx] has joined #scheme 21:02:06 Just degrees of freedom 21:02:08 re 21:02:10 sorry 21:02:12 :\ 21:02:50 n0nsense: personally I find the books and tutorials on the (roughly) family of functional languages, to be a bit on the academic side. They get all excited about the complexity/runtimes of the algorithms, names/bindings/values, recursion, tail call optimization, introductory examples often from mathematics, and so on and so forth. 21:03:31 did I miss something? 21:03:34 n0nsense is dead 21:03:54 No, I don't think you did miss anything. 21:04:16 ok 21:05:11 n1nsense: SICP, HtDP, TLS, and TSPL are all good books. 21:05:33 I'm starting my studies in about three weeks 21:05:57 Summermute66: I will learn all this at university. at least I think so :-) 21:06:02 arcfide: ok 21:06:58 Other language books early examples are about looping over lines in files, and they just go through the various looping constructs, scoping rules and the type system (if there is one). Python intro books hardly speak of Python at all - the books are almost entirely made up of examples, which python features explained as one goes along. Hmmmm - might be a good way to write a Scheme intro book.... a man can dream.... 21:08:05 Summermute66: Scheme isn't the same as Python, why should the books be written in the same way? 21:08:15 Examples are good. 21:08:31 Ah university - yeah, even in the intro classes (at least where I went to college) they "rewire your brain" as one professor said 21:09:00 heh 21:09:01 yeah 21:09:06 we will learn standard ml 21:09:35 I have always been interested in functional programming languages 21:10:11 arcfide: why can't scheme books be written in different way? I have Harbison/Steele on the C Standard, and I have other "how to" oriented intro C books. They coexist; they don't conflict. 21:10:11 many of my friends are fans of functional programming, some are haskell-lovers, some are lisp lovers 21:10:34 and I'm rewriting a compiler of a lisp-dialect with a friend 21:11:03 (just clean-up work at the moment, but that will change later) 21:11:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:11:59 Writing a compiler changes the way you'll think of computing forever. 21:12:15 I wrote one at school 21:12:29 for a stupid simple pascal dialect which could not do very much 21:12:34 and the parser was recursive 21:12:45 like the things you do at school :D 21:13:34 Actually, I'm using PLT's yacc now, but there's nothing wrong with recursive descent. I might use yacc as a "proof system" for my grammar and then reimplement the parser recursive descent to get good error reporting. 21:14:42 Anyway, if you ever get a chance to write a full compiler and a runtime system, don't miss that chance. 21:14:53 yep 21:14:58 would be stupid 21:15:33 So, have you settled on an intro to Scheme book? 21:15:54 The more I see of compilers, the more I prefer interpreters. --not Mme. de Stael 21:16:13 Summermute66: hm? 21:16:24 jcowan: heh 21:16:58 Riastradh: I once again destroyed my Chicken 3.x environment that I had around for testing Riaxpander, so perhaps you can answer a question for me. In (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) (define a 1)))) is the definition of `a' considered a generated binding and thus renamed hygienically? 21:16:59 Computers are fast enough that they can pretty much act as interpreters and have all the "reflection" data around for rich interactive debugging. 21:17:12 That was for chandler: 21:17:23 What was? 21:17:33 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #scheme 21:17:35 -!- n0nsense [n=n0nsense@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:48 My last comment on compilers as interpreter experience 21:17:54 Why was that for me? 21:18:02 n1nsense: http://www.freebookcentre.net/Language/Free-Scheme-Books-Download.html 21:18:32 That's a horrible collection of links. 21:18:47 Just look through those, pick one and work through it. A little guidance is better than flailing around. 21:18:55 The topic has a much better collection of links. 21:18:57 23:19 -!- n0nsense [n=n0nsense@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:00 phew 21:19:01 19 minutes 21:19:09 http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-texts 21:19:21 Ah yes 21:19:24 chandler, it should be generated and renamed hygienically. I am not sure whether it is, in Chicken. 21:19:48 Summermute66: I don't have a real internet connection right now, I will bookmark it and view it tomorrow 21:20:10 Sure. 21:20:31 Riastradh: OK. I was collecting a few off-the-shelf implementations of hygiene for someone, and wanted to verify that Riaxpander behaved correctly there (and is thus preferable to Alexpander). 21:20:36 Btw: Is there a "Scheme for the Working Programmer", like the ML book???? 21:20:43 Oh, I ought to check it, then. 21:21:26 -!- sku [n=sk@93.190.176.95] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:24:37 chandler, riaxpander sort of does the right thing, except that because its Chicken client needs to work with the rest of Chicken, it doesn't hygienically rename top-level variable bindings in its output (either in definitions or in references). 21:24:59 So, for example, 21:25:03 > (riaxpander:expand '(begin (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo) (define-syntax a (syntax-rules () ((a) 1)))))) (foo) (a)) (make-chicken-environment)) 21:25:07 (a) 21:25:30 But: 21:25:31 > (riaxpander:expand '(begin (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo) (define a 1)))) (foo) a) (make-chicken-environment)) 21:25:35 (begin (define a 1) a) 21:25:37 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.136.124.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:02 If one were to use Riaxpander as the expander in a new implementation of Scheme, would it be possible to get this detail right? 21:26:06 Internally, riaxpander does the right thing, anyway. It's just that Chicken doesn't supply the information that riaxpander needs in order to do the right thing when interacting with other Chicken code. 21:26:10 Yes, it would. 21:26:13 OK. 21:26:21 MIT Scheme has a similar problem, by the way. 21:27:43 Anything that wants to globally rename everything will have a problem unless it has deep hooks into the implementation. 21:27:50 R: is that some sort of hygenic "macroexpand" for scheme? 21:28:13 Hygiene requires that *everything* pass through a syntax expander, not just the macro calls. 21:28:26 -!- albacker [n=eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:33 That's why the gensym hack doesn't provide full hygiene. 21:28:33 (My name is usually spelled `Riastradh', by the way, Summermute66, even if the `dh' is silent. Maybe your IRC client has a feature to autocomplete names.) 21:28:57 Summermute66, riaxpander is a macro expander for Scheme at . 21:28:59 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:11 Ok, sorry. No offense meant. 21:29:52 jcowan: so one needs a complete syntax walker? 21:30:31 Yes. 21:31:47 So I suppose many schemes are (still) deficient in this regard? 21:35:42 Well, the ones that don't claim to be R5RS are, like Stalin or s9es. Chicken 3 is a little flaky because its expanders are outboard; Chicken 4 has its own implementation. 21:36:58 jcowan: so this is a good deed 21:37:26 What is? 21:38:16 writing the expander 21:42:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:11 Yes, which is why I was recommending Riaxpander to the author of a Scheme with a broken homebrew implementation of hygiene. 21:47:16 good night 21:47:25 thanks for all the information :-) 21:47:47 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:48:42 chandler, if you want to be a little more specific with your interlocutor: the procedure you need to change from the Chicken client is CHICKEN/COMPILE-REFERENCE, or in the generic S-expression client, SEXP/COMPILE-REFERENCE. 21:49:19 The information is lost where they call NAME->SYMBOL, with a comment marked with asterisks saying `Note that this strips the information necessary to resolve hygienic module references later.' 21:49:30 Ah. Well, I'm hoping that he'll pick up on the hint that you're often around here, and join if he has questions. 21:52:39 jay-mccarthy: we are looking at the k-urls and having a couple of concerns. 1) they may break when bookmarked 2) they make it hard for users to share a link to the site that does what they expect 3) as mentioned in docs, they pose a potential security risk. As far as I can tell, however, they are necessary when using formlets or stateful servlets. Is that right? 21:53:07 formlets --- no 21:53:14 stateful servlets --- yes 21:53:43 but you can do a little bit to pretty them up and have them store info to restore on bookmarks + breaking 21:54:06 no == they are avoidable? 21:54:13 yes 21:54:30 formlets don't do any url generation themselves 21:55:27 -!- n1nsense [n=n0nsense@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has quit ["leaving"] 21:55:41 jay-mccarthy: do you have pointers on the "pretty up" and "bookmarks / breaking" bits? 21:56:44 you can write a dispatcher to put parts of the request into the url... like having the k-id in a cookie or post data, then pushing it into the url 21:56:55 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054E75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:32 re bookmarks... check out url-param on planet for the idea (but that isn't supported) 22:07:01 (reading)... btw, in the docs in several places, you refer to "the Web Language", but what that is exactly isn't specified. Do you mean simply "#lang web-server" (or derivatives)? 22:07:20 or is there a DSL that I haven't found yet? 22:09:29 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 22:15:17 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:19:50 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:22:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:54 dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 22:56:26 mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has joined #scheme 23:07:08 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:12:42 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:18:17 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-193.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:53 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:23:37 -!- mdg [n=mdg@unaffiliated/mgroman] has quit [] 23:24:51 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:49 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.212.249] has quit [] 23:29:26 emma [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-166.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:31:28 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:32:30 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:28 MononcQc [n=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:55:16 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out]