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has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:45:26 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:08:58 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176203222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:03 reprore [n=reprore@fw.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 03:09:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@fw.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:09 tjafk [n=timj@e176213192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:11:54 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:15:07 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:19:52 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.89.151] has joined #scheme 03:24:42 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:57 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.89.151] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:52 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:28:56 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:37:56 decker [n=chatzill@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 03:46:08 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:28 hi guys. I'm a bit confused as to why this doesn't work right the first time: 03:46:50 decker pasted "accumulator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86794 03:47:47 well, aside from the missing ) 03:48:37 set! returns unspecified values 03:48:50 you need to return total after you set! it 03:49:57 gah. I messed up the output actually. 03:51:16 decker annotated #86794 "accumulator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86794#1 03:54:42 it's returning a value though. I mean, as is I can use it like so no problem: (+ 100 (a 10)) 03:56:34 minion: tell us about compliance 03:56:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``compliance''. 03:56:46 minion: chant 03:56:47 MORE VERBOSE 03:56:57 minion: chant compliance 03:56:58 MORE VERBOSE 03:57:02 :( 04:00:02 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:00:24 minion: chant to adamant 04:00:24 adamant: MORE COMPLIANCE 04:00:52 More sugar!! 04:01:00 you have 30 seconds to comply, minion 04:01:11 navigator, take us back in time 04:06:12 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:12 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 04:06:29 leppie: well, I added the total after the set and it started complaining 5 isn't applicable. but then I got rid of the let and did it sorta like the example of a bank account in the book and then it started working. I still don't get it really, but ah well, moving on. 04:07:05 sicp being the book by the way. 04:07:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:07:46 ok 04:08:03 never read/did sicp, just scanned through 04:11:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 04:18:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:26:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.204.16] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:49 a brave admission, hereabouts 04:38:34 I didn't want to save anything. 04:38:40 s/save/say/ 04:39:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:49:10 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 04:53:40 being an implementor kind of obviates that need 05:02:30 -!- tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:04:38 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 05:04:43 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:52 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:28 -!- kenjin2 [n=kenjin@163.152.180.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:40 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 05:28:42 -!- decker [n=chatzill@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:10 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:38:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:39 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has left #scheme 05:40:51 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:47:26 tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 05:49:26 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@167.sub-75-217-129.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 05:54:42 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:01:34 being an implementor kind of obviates that need <----- The need for what? 06:01:45 to read sicp I guess :) 06:02:04 the need to save/say anything? 06:02:05 leppie, are you a scheme implementor ? 06:02:15 yes I am 06:02:26 oh it's really an honor to chat with you. 06:03:13 dont feel honoured. I have knowned Scheme for only 2 years now 06:03:35 s/knowned/knowned/ 06:03:40 DUH 06:03:44 s/knowned/known/ 06:03:51 s/known/pwned/ 06:03:57 :) 06:04:13 clearly a freudian slip originally :) 06:22:15 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:22:38 ejs [n=eugen@109-41-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:02 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 06:31:21 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-244-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:37:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-41-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:43:07 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:01 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:24 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:58:09 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:59:19 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:18:35 streetlight22 [n=streetli@131.151.66.224] has joined #scheme 07:19:41 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 07:32:43 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:00 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 07:38:40 -!- streetlight22 [n=streetli@131.151.66.224] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:34 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 07:44:16 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 07:47:22 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:51:41 sjamaan: whats with those funny replies in the form of attachments you are sending to the R6RS list? 07:52:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:30 leppie: Get a decent email client 07:57:10 One that understands content disposition inline 07:57:33 *leppie* goes to Tools/Options/Check's 'decent email client' mode 07:58:13 :) 08:00:08 The mail archive software understands it: http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/004790.html 08:00:30 Windows Mail does not have that option :( 08:00:36 As does any modern email client except Outlook Express 08:01:01 Oh, they rebranded it "Microsoft Mail"? 08:01:02 Maybe it's time to try FoxBird 08:01:10 *sjamaan* makes a mental note 08:01:31 renamed Outlook Express -> Windows Mail 08:01:36 eh, "Windows Mail" 08:01:37 right 08:01:44 from Vista onwards I think 08:01:55 Someone took a page from Apple's book ;) 08:02:48 ThunderFox! 08:03:26 I guess now I will have to re-setup all my mail rules... 08:03:35 That's gotta suck :/ 08:03:44 It has no "import" functionality? 08:06:24 yes, apparently, tbird does not like importing from Windows Mial... 08:06:46 It's probably more a matter of Windows Mail not liking anyone importing from it ;) 08:07:22 they changed from that single file repo, to a file store now, it should be easier 08:07:47 That's nicer, but it's probably still just as undocumented 08:08:02 Reverse engineering takes time 08:08:55 it's just a plain text .eml file, with the entire message source 08:09:51 I thought we were talking about rules? Or does it also refuse to import the mails themselves? 08:10:15 im only at the mail part, I have no hope for rules 08:12:56 hm, Thunderbird is supposed to have an import feature 08:13:15 Perhaps the new mail format is just too new? 08:13:47 ok, trying the suggested addon 08:14:54 gonna take a while 08:18:49 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 08:19:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #scheme 08:23:24 masm [n=masm@bl11-78-169.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:34:04 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:46:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 08:46:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:19:23 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:39:30 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:49 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:06:17 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-147-160.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:07:24 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:12:42 GeoffSK [n=chatzill@c210-49-251-180.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:13:44 In DrScheme is r6rs mode - how do you import your own libraries? 10:14:22 i think it just have to be somewhere in the colelcts path, using the 'standard' r6rs layout 10:15:05 the library is part of the current project so isn't in the standard collects, i added the current path to the collects, and no luck. 10:15:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 10:17:09 sorry, I dont know :| 10:17:17 i did at one stage though 10:17:26 ok, thanks. 10:18:12 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:25 Kaonashi [n=Tanami@CPE-60-231-229-148.sa.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 10:26:02 hmm 10:26:21 so I have started learning scheme 10:26:55 good choice 10:26:59 I decided that it would be good for me to read the SICP in combination with any other books 10:27:07 the problem I have is, 10:27:13 apart from HTDP, what other books are there? 10:27:41 little schemer (of course) 10:27:45 mm 10:28:20 ! 10:28:21 i just bought the scheme programming language fourth edition update for r6rs. 10:28:21 I thought I had gotten that 10:28:24 thanks 10:30:08 sounds good 10:30:40 you have a lot of books on your list 10:30:47 I know 10:30:50 but I am dedicated 10:31:08 read: maniac obsessive 10:31:31 well go for it. me i would rather write code then add books as i go. 10:32:29 yes 10:32:41 hmm 10:32:53 how good is scheme with 3d objects and the like? 10:33:01 can't say. 10:33:02 gtg. 10:33:03 I am currently still in high school, so I would interested in 3d graphing 10:33:11 k 10:35:38 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has joined #scheme 10:38:53 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:39:18 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.32.245] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- haesbaert [n=haesbaer@c925a8c5.virtua.com.br] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- danking [n=danking@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- shawnps [n=shawn930@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- makmanalp [n=legato@80.76.201.55] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:40:40 makmanalp [n=legato@80.76.201.55] has joined #scheme 10:40:50 haesbaert [n=haesbaer@c925a8c5.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 10:43:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:51 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 10:44:29 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.32.245] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 danking [n=danking@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:50:38 shawnps [n=shawn930@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:51:36 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.219.148] has joined #scheme 11:03:55 kaonashi - does school leave enough time to read all those books? 11:04:06 not really 11:04:11 :) 11:04:12 I have to live 28-hour days 11:04:15 :| 11:04:32 still, I find the time 11:04:44 depends what you want, but i would work through the little schemer. (and i did) 11:04:44 and I write programs in maths 11:04:47 for doing stuff 11:04:52 ok 11:05:02 I have already started on the sicp though 11:05:09 page 25 or something by now 11:05:16 so I don't want to stop reading it 11:05:28 SICP is pretty big isn't it? 11:06:27 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 11:07:20 yep 11:07:38 I found a printed version at a library 11:07:50 big, hard-cover with red binding 11:08:11 which scheme implementation are you using? 11:08:59 PLT Scheme 11:09:02 er 11:09:04 yes 11:09:11 same here. 11:09:20 it's quite impressive 11:09:55 pretty happy with it, though the editor is slow 11:10:39 I enjoy the fact that it doesn't turn fractions into decimal form 11:10:45 because my TI-84 does 11:10:48 which drives me nuts 11:11:12 as in texas instruments? 11:11:22 Most implementations of Scheme (and all implementations of the latest revision) have that propery. 11:11:57 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:18 yes 11:12:22 texas instruments 11:12:41 it's a requirement to have a graphics calculator at my school 11:12:47 By the way, after you learn more about Scheme, you may find a HP-50G to be more to your taste than that awful TI thing. :-) 11:13:06 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176203146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:13:56 :| 11:14:00 not likely 11:14:02 Way is a graphing calc' important at school (school was along time ago for me) 11:14:12 way? 11:14:31 *why? 11:14:57 oops, why 11:15:00 because I go to one of those 'special' schools 11:15:13 a "nerd farm", so to speak 11:15:33 although the quality of student nerdiness/geekiness is decreasing 11:15:38 ok, thought laptops might be more the requirement. 11:15:49 surprisingly not 11:16:03 they like to throw around the idea that the computer system they have in place is perfect 11:16:16 and it is, bureaucratically speaking 11:16:21 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 11:16:43 eg: network is set up, pity the computers experience 50% downtime and the ISA server is bloated to hell 11:17:02 but abstract discussion will remove those fine details 11:17:38 I requested for PLT Scheme or Perl to be installed a year ago 11:17:44 instead, they installed python 11:17:52 but didn't give you permission to run the scripts 11:17:58 same first letter, that's a start :) 11:18:06 :3 11:18:28 I really like the idea of having an operand at the start of a function 11:18:50 (+ a lot more sensible than '+') 11:19:06 I was just discussing the merits of haskell over python and vice versa today with my friend 11:19:29 we decided that while haskell has a higher salary, that is due to it being used mainly by scientific facilities 11:19:40 whereas scheme seems to have a more general usage feel to it 11:20:03 i did haskell for a year, that improved my scheme. 11:20:08 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:13 interesting. 11:20:23 oh my 11:20:28 would you look at the time 11:20:41 I have 4 assignments due tomorrow :( 11:20:48 er 11:20:52 *projects 11:21:04 have fun 11:21:09 bye 11:21:39 -!- Kaonashi [n=Tanami@CPE-60-231-229-148.sa.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["leaving"] 11:28:36 rcy [n=rcy@d75-157-170-95.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 11:29:33 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176213192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:35 ASau: What? I thought Postfix supports Maildir folders too. I hope I'm not mistaken, or else the world's a depressing place. 11:30:50 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:31:12 <3 Maildir, but best to run "mke2fs -T news" to give your FS plenty of inodes. :-P 11:31:58 (Uh, for lurkers and archives: only do this on volumes not containing any data. :-P) 11:34:46 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 11:35:15 -!- GeoffSK [n=chatzill@c210-49-251-180.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009080315]"] 11:36:43 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:47 sphex [n=nobody@74.56.185.244] has joined #scheme 11:49:24 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:40 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable244.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:23 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 11:59:51 karme [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 12:05:57 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:11:39 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:16:14 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:18 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:24:22 -!- Vapour [n=vapour@213.239.193.124] has left #scheme 12:27:11 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 12:32:10 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:36:41 danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 12:37:10 afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:39:34 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #scheme 12:40:05 -!- afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:57 afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:43:15 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:46:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 12:51:38 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:59 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:56:06 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:25 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 13:02:59 cky: as far as I remember, Postfix does support Maildir. 13:03:49 cky: personally, I only delivered to maildrop, which took care to filter mails according to my rules and putting them into Maildir++. 13:04:13 postfix can give delivery over to something. I don't remember if it'll directly do maildir 13:04:34 Either way, I like it :) 13:04:59 *Leonidas* switched to Exim 13:13:43 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 13:16:08 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:16:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.219.148] has quit [] 13:18:14 -!- afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:34 afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:18:38 -!- jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 13:21:34 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:25:26 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 13:28:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:34:44 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:36:08 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 13:36:17 sjamaan: it was called "Microsoft Mail" before they rebranded it as "Microsoft Outlook" and "Outlook Express." 13:37:20 heh! 13:37:26 Almost full circle! 13:38:06 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:09 Welcome to WFWG! :D 13:38:17 Okay, having written and ported over some of my applications from R5RS based code to R6RS based code, and also having previously voted and strongly voiced my opposition to R6RS' standardization, I hereby acknowledge the following subjective, personal opinion regarding R6RS use in practical, everyday programming within my sphere of problems: R6RS really isn't that bad. 13:38:19 There, I said it. 13:38:24 WFWG? 13:38:41 Windoze for work groups. 13:40:59 arcfide: I don't think most people had a problem with how practical R6RS could be. Most problems were with the size (which is a problem when writing a new implementation), the disregard of existing SRFIs (like SRFI-1; also not a problem in practicality; you can just rewrite your code) etc 13:42:15 Isn't most of the size due to new libraries? 13:42:29 As in, can-implement-in-just-scheme libraries 13:43:26 sjamaan: I haven't encountered much problem at all with SRFI-1 mismatch, honestly. I find it easy to switch my mind and I don't actually notice the mismatch at all. 13:43:44 Jafet: Yes, that too, and also the fact it wants unicode (iirc) 13:43:50 sjamaan: There were semantic questions, issues of feasibility, and some other complaints as well. 13:44:28 arcfide: yeah, but none of those need to matter for someone who just wants to get work done. OTOH, you could just use CL in that case too ;) 13:44:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:30 Ah, unicode might be a (well-justified) implementation issue 13:45:21 OMG, Joo Churlsoo just posted a new SRFI 13:45:42 YES!! 13:49:28 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.62.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:49:34 100! 13:49:51 incubot: sperber is fucking with us 13:49:55 eventually people will realize how fucking retarded it is to write apps like that 13:49:57 Now we can even have HUGE Scheme! 13:51:07 zbigniew: Joo = Sperber? 13:51:18 heh 13:51:32 i presume this is just laying the groundwork for DEFINE-MU-OBJECT and DEFINE-NU-OBJECT in an upcoming SRFI 13:52:19 ROFL 13:53:02 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 13:53:18 no sjamaan, sperber is the editor, although perhaps you have outed a sockpuppet 13:53:42 gosh, what an epic troll 13:54:13 :) 13:54:18 NOOOOOO, why does ChurlSoo get 100?! 13:55:08 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:55:46 Ah, clever, he gives Sperber as his first reference. 13:56:32 i dedicate this srfi to my hero and guiding light, michael sperber 13:56:41 :-D 13:57:35 incubot: sperber 13:57:38 See the various papers by people like Richard Kelsey & Mike Sperber about the relation between threads and the dynamic environment. 13:57:47 incubot, you're no fun 13:58:03 sjamaan: When you care about writing elegent code, yes, it does matter. 13:58:59 sjamaan: It's just that I don't feel any more dirty, in actual fact, using R6RS to write my code. The coden't doesn't really feel all that different, and in some places is nicer. I have run into some gotchas with I/O, but once I understood, those were easy to fix. 13:59:00 The difference in naming between SRFI-1 and R6RS does not change the elegance of the code 13:59:40 sjamaan: And the semantic changes aren't enough to make it CL, by a long shot. 13:59:48 I didn't say that ;) 14:00:48 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-162.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:02:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 14:02:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:11 *sjamaan* is impressed with the weirdness of SRFI-100 14:08:58 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:16:03 arcfide: I would also agree with the statement that the R6RS isn't that bad, but I consider that to be damning with faint praise. I think there's quite a lot of it which could be better thought out, and a fair amount which should never have been included in the first place. 14:18:55 -!- afdw [n=alistair@host86-148-217-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:13 chandler: Well, I'm not damning it, for sure. It isn't perfect, but in all honesty, I haven't been hurt to much in using it. It really isn't that bad. It is serviceable. 14:20:46 chandler: And admittedly, it would be hard to get something better given the sort of compromises that were required for various reasons. 14:21:04 arcfide: If, when reading through the library chapters, I mentally blank out bytevectors, the absurd hairiness in the records chapter, the fixnums and flonums sections, the enumerations chapter (why in the WORLD is that in the report?), and a few other things, it begins to look like a reasonable first attempt at standardizing some of the long-standing unaddressed areas that are issues when writing portable Scheme code. 14:22:29 However, I think that much, much better could have been done even while retaining some of the fundamental design decisions - the compromise between separate-instantiation and implicitly-phased identifiers, the addition of a low-level macro system, the insistence on a full numeric tower, etc. 14:22:42 chandler: Well, actually, I have used bytevectors a *lot* in the current work I have been doing. Enumerations...eh, not so much, but almost. They are weird. 14:23:16 chandler: Well, the other compromise was one of time. 14:23:18 I'm not opposed to the concept of enumerations, but I boggle at their inclusion in the report. 14:25:01 I really, truly fail to understand the utility of bytevectors, especially where concepts such as "native endianness" are concerned, as a general-purpose feature for writing portable Scheme programs. 14:25:05 Perhaps you can help me with that. 14:25:18 chandler: Foreign Function interfaces. 14:26:23 Can you explain a bit better? I almost never have to deal with this kind of feature when writing FFIs in, er, that other language. 14:26:26 byte vectors is a must 14:26:33 chandler: Sure. 14:26:45 how else do you handle binary data? 14:26:57 chandler: Okay, so given that FFIs are so different from each other, it's hard to nail down what you are going to get with them. 14:27:27 chandler: If you have bytevectors and some operations with them, it's possible to do almost all of your work on foreign structures using pure Scheme code. 14:27:32 chandler: And do so in a portable manner. 14:28:07 ... How do I portably know the host's alignment for doubles? And are we assuming here that all hosts will use IEEE-754 representations for their doubles? 14:28:18 This seems, to me, to be about the *furthest* possible thing from portable. 14:28:31 chandler: With a little extra syntax, you can then abstract on a few other elements for getting constants and offsets out of the headers, and this gives you the means to do most of your Foreign work inside Scheme, and in such a way that the non-portable FFI section becomes much smaller. 14:28:49 you could convert binary data into a common format, work on it, then convert it back. That can be expensive though... 14:29:41 karme: I don't tend to have issues working with binary data in That Other Language, though most of what I'm doing is network programming. It's not difficult to pull an integer represented in N bytes out of a specialized array of (unsigned-byte 8), and it's not that inefficient either. 14:29:48 chandler: You can get the information you need by using the FFI, but the bytevectors allow you to really scale back what actually has to be written using that FFI. 14:30:18 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:30:25 chandler: If you have to write C stub files, or rely on the C static features of the FFI, it makes your code much less portable. 14:31:05 chandler: I'm working in this area specifically righ tnow, and over the rest of this semester, with sockets and syntax. 14:31:10 decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:17 chandler: I initially thought bytevectors were the least useful thing out there. 14:31:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:24 i have since changed my mind. 14:31:53 arcfide: I'll grant that, in the area of FFI, knowing the host's endianness may be useful, though without a FFI specification this still seems to me to be unsuitable for inclusion in the report. 14:32:25 chandler: Well, the point is that it gets you one step closer by eliminating the need to rely on non-portable FFI components as much. 14:32:26 I for one think there should have been a stronger separation in the R6RS between unsigned 8-bit byte vectors and byte vectors. Put those others in a different library for endianness manipulation or something, and have a general non-magic sequence of bytes separate from that. 14:32:40 Otherwise, it still seems to me to be a lot of effort standardizing procedures that are easy to write, and that if you're going to introduce yet another kind of specialized array you might as well go all the way to having specialized multidimensional arrays. 14:32:53 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:32:59 *arcfide* shrugs. 14:33:26 Of coruse, another motivation was the Unicode stuff. But you can get away with the Unicode stuff by using a latin 1 codec. 14:33:41 I'd prefer to look at the reasons why it *wasn't* necessary to standardize this in That Other Language to get a portable FFI. 14:33:53 chandler: I didn't find the bytevector SRFI very easy. 14:34:25 Well, I have to go right now, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. 14:35:06 in PLT they get a portable FFI by converting the native format to a standard one, and back again every time. Dunno how I feel about that... 14:35:17 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 14:35:30 Hmph. Later, I guess. 14:36:15 Wow, we actually might be getting a consensus on the use of || escapes :) 14:37:11 Oh, right, I was going to respond to Tonder's folly about gensyms. 14:37:20 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:38:23 Shiro already has responded 14:39:56 It didn't *quite* seem to cover all the issues. 14:41:19 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:06 Scheme doesn't even need gensyms! 14:46:13 We have hygiene :) 14:50:20 davids [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:50:20 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:55 Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:52:26 mickn [n=mickn@69-196-173-196.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:53:09 foof: symbols are useful for other things than hygiene, though. 14:54:24 sure, but gensym isn't ;) 14:54:28 soap is useful for hygiene 14:54:46 samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:54:58 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 14:56:14 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:56:23 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:59:06 is. for interning for example 15:02:16 string->symbol 15:02:54 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:44 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:55 offby1: i heard the french have no equivalent word to 'hygiene' 15:08:45 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:09:04 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:06 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:06 -!- Narrenschiff_ is now known as Narrenschiff 15:17:53 -!- reprore 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[n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 16:15:19 incubot: have you soaped your mouth today? 16:15:22 knowledge he made up for in stage presence... calling '>' "alligator mouth" and such. It was easily the funniest act of public code-reading I have encountered.) 16:16:19 V^V 16:24:00 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.157.100] has joined #scheme 16:27:30 -!- samth [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:28:47 alligator mouth lol 16:29:31 samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:44:16 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:50:09 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 16:52:37 foof` [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 16:53:12 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:16 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@xdsl-83-150-86-25.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:00:03 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kvsughyxnsryowcy] has joined #scheme 17:05:34 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:51 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 17:09:06 -!- karme [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:10:00 karme [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 17:10:40 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 17:10:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:17:17 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:16 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:27:26 -!- karme [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@249-25-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:59 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 17:32:45 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:36:56 EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-194-154.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 17:39:33 tekGL [n=root@broadband-77-37-136-225.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #scheme 17:44:23 -!- tekGL [n=root@broadband-77-37-136-225.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:46 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:29 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:32 ejs [n=eugen@50-69-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:38 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 17:55:20 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:55:48 -!- EleminoP [n=EleminoP@iub-vpn-194-154.noc.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 17:58:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 18:05:35 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 18:15:09 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 18:22:05 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.157.100] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:28:22 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:02 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.231.59] has joined #scheme 18:40:57 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:13 Good afternoon, y'all. 18:44:45 hey, should the error proc drop me into the debugger? under mit scheme that is? 18:47:44 decker: Doesn't it give you the option to enter the debugger after an error? 18:47:54 I don't think it should drop you into the debugger immediately after an error. 18:48:18 well yeah, I guess that's what I mean. it doesn't just spit out the error? 18:51:34 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:51:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@50-69-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:19 hmm. I guess. this thing is saying error raises a "non-continuable exception" 18:52:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:11 decker: Can you paste a copy of your MIT Scheme session? Chances are it is printing the error. 18:54:47 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:54:58 well yeah, it's printing the error, but then as you say, gives me the option to go into the debugger. That was just confusing me at first. I thought I had more problems then just the error that was being spit out. 18:57:20 Okay. 19:03:39 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:27 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-89-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:40 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:11:28 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:12:18 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 19:17:11 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:02 hey in edwin, if I've defined a procedure, is there a way to print it out if I've gone and erased it from the screen? or no? 19:30:25 even if it spits out lambda something or other, that would be good enough 19:34:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:35:05 Riastradh: Are you around? Is there a good reason I should implement variant types the way you do in the mit-variant-types.scm file or would any implementaiton do so long as it follows the normal examples and usages? 19:35:32 decker: have you tried just evaluating the procedure name to see if it is defined? 19:36:07 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d75-157-170-95.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:30 arcfide: I think he's looking for the source to the procedure. 19:36:51 chandler: Um...hrm, I see. 19:36:58 arcfide: well yeah, it's defined. I just defined it. but then I erased the thing from the screen. Now I just want to look at it again. Just evaluating the name doesn't do that, it merely tells me it's a compound procedure 19:37:02 decker: The debugger or inspector interface might let you do that. 19:37:23 UNDO! 19:37:25 :) 19:37:26 decker: Or I think M-p might work. 19:37:46 You should be able to recall previously used s-expressions in Edwin. 19:38:22 yeah, that did the trick. thanks. guess I need to learn more emacs stuff is all. 19:38:45 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:52:30 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.231.59] has quit [] 19:52:57 dysinger [n=dysinger@166.129.231.59] has joined #scheme 19:54:16 decker: (pp ) 19:54:45 M-p is better, of course, if you entered it into a REPL buffer, because that gives you what you typed, rather than (a prettified version of) Scheme's internal format of the procedure's code. 19:59:03 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:01:50 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:01:59 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-183.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:03:52 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:12:23 arcfide, you need to match the semantics of DEFINE-VARIANT-TYPE; how you do that doesn't really matter, but how else did you have in mind? 20:17:03 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:39 -!- decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-162.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:22:58 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:23:07 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 20:24:18 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:24:22 rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 20:25:10 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:28:26 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 20:31:16 decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 20:32:15 that works great Riastradh. thanks. 20:33:05 Vaeshir [n=zane@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:35:39 danfowler1 [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:47 so this is odd. cons is defined like so: (named-lambda (cons a b) (cons a b)). How can something be defined in terms of itself? 20:36:21 The compiler recognizes `cons', and expands the code inline. 20:36:59 Thus, cons-the-procedure-object is defined as a call to cons-the-primitive, which is open-coded. 20:38:03 ok. thanks. 20:38:17 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:35 and something like (complex:* x x)? as in square? is that an example of coercion? 20:39:49 -!- davids [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 20:40:27 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:54 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 20:46:26 merus_ [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 20:49:30 Riastradh: At the moment I am trying to understand the expansions you have here. 20:49:50 -!- danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:50:01 Riastradh: I'm not familiar enough with SC macros to completely understand your intent in the variant type stuff. 20:52:01 Riastradh: The essential characteristics are a type, predicate, case syntax, and constructors for each individual case, but are there predicates for each individual case? I assume that only one real type should be created? 20:52:47 Or should a new type and type predicate be defined for each subtype? 21:00:08 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:00:10 chandler: an off-line +1 for your recent reply. 21:01:40 chandler: I think that it was Kent who once described things roughly as "Scheme was left to attract the academic types who would prefer arguing forever instead of getting work done". 21:02:44 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:33 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:03:33 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:41 *arcfide* takes off. 21:05:00 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:05:55 I am sure that no small amount of arguing went into the Common Lisp specifiation, and there's still plenty of cross-implementation ruckus today. It's the "arguing forever" type of discussions (geez, FEXPRs?!) that are pointless. Perhaps the steering committee should make it clear that the R6RS actually *did* happen and will not be ignored in the next process, which will cause most of the circular argumentors to vanish. 21:06:09 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:23 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:12:57 chandler: Yeah, I completely agree with that. (And I believe that there was a good amount of argumentation involved in getting CL -- I think that this is exactly why CLtL2 begins with "Common Lisp has succeeded." as its very first sentence.) 21:14:04 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:01 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:20:13 -!- decker [n=decker@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:48 eli: The link to Fare's blog is a good one. I hope others read it. 21:24:13 Is r6rs-discuss available via gmane? 21:24:59 Not as far as I can tell. 21:25:09 Blast. 21:25:26 Got a link for the post currently being discussed in here? My interest is piqued. 21:26:02 -!- merus_ [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:06 abbyz [n=adkulkar@unaffiliated/abbyz] has joined #scheme 21:26:09 http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/004995.html and http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/004994.html 21:26:21 Thank you very much. 21:26:28 (and surrounding messages) 21:27:08 Right. I usually read entire threads. 21:27:45 In that case, it starts at http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/004955.html 21:27:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:30:56 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 21:31:52 karme [n=user@188.40.75.179] has joined #scheme 21:32:15 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 21:32:36 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:32:38 -!- samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:41:07 eli: any idea why the MzScheme Mac source code is distributed as a .dmg file? It seems like just the raw tarball would be simpler and more convenient 21:41:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:47:29 Blurgh, the gzip'd mailman archives don't seem to contain the 'Re-hashing' thread! 21:48:12 Or indeed almost anything posted on the 9th. Dagnabbit. 21:48:24 Welp, I suppose that's to be expected. 21:59:52 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:38 I was disappointed when I learned that the R6RS-Discuss group was not available over Gmane. 22:02:51 It seems to me, though, that there are only a select few who continue to push already well discussed issues and ignore R6RS, but maybe I'm wrong. 22:04:42 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:06:01 *jcowan* the Ignorant looks around for Eli the Terrible and his ... minions. 22:07:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:19 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:08:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:08:33 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D8E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:08:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:08:41 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:08:48 nightmode [n=Nav@194.146.155.90] has joined #scheme 22:08:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:13 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:09:52 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:18:56 -!- nightmode [n=Nav@194.146.155.90] has quit [" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"] 22:22:39 -!- Vaeshir [n=zane@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [] 22:27:33 -!- karme [n=user@188.40.75.179] has left #scheme 22:27:40 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 22:30:57 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:56 Riastradh: If you are here, perhaps you could clarify the form of a clause in a variant-type case form? 22:33:20 Specifically, in cases where the variant type takes values, are the values positional or mapped by name? 22:34:40 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:41 Hallo jcowan. 22:34:43 So, if a case clase look like ((TYPE a b c) ---) and the declaration looked like (variant TYPE (maker b a c)), would the bound values in the case clause be a -> b, b -> a, and c -> c or would the bindings map directly to their names? 22:36:00 Riastradh is probably still dealing with having put his life in boxes. 22:36:04 Hey, chandler. 22:36:30 Do you think I'm overloading the community with all this stuff I'm turning out? Great fun for me, but I don't want to overwhelm people. 22:36:57 I have three theories for the fall-off of comments lately: 1) I'm getting better 2) People trust me more 3) Only a few care enough to carry on further. 22:37:23 jcowan: #3. I've said my piece. :-) 22:37:42 And more importantly, I have not enough time as yet to respond further to your proposals. 22:38:17 You mean you'll have no more to say about later proposals? In that case I might as well stop. 22:38:26 jcowan: were are you "overloading the community"? 22:38:30 The time issue, I well understand. 22:38:35 peter_12: I don't know. 22:38:49 I mean which mailing list etc 22:38:56 jcowan: I will have something to say when I have time to say it. Right now I have over 54 messages pending examination and semi-thoughtful reply, most of which belong to the list. 22:38:57 Oh. r6rs-discuss@r6rs.org 22:39:10 ahh s/were/where/ 22:39:25 arcfide: Okay, no problem. I just didn't want people to be flipping the bozo bit on me. 22:39:38 Well, I admit that in many ways, I think some of this is premature. 22:40:06 Quick!! r8rs.org is available. Register now. Profit later. 22:40:12 I mean, I feel like this whole process has beene xamined, and needs to be reexamined as we move forward, and without people to consider regarding this issues, it's hard to make progress. 22:41:06 jcowan: Specifically, it might make sense for someone to step up and offer to start taking on responsibilities regarding the Scheme process. I'll admit that I wouldn't mind Kent getting into that role, since he seems to be very good at handling compromise and committees, but I'm not sure he would do it again. ;-) 22:41:36 jcowan: But, by all means, keep posting. 22:42:17 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-183.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:42:25 I'm mostly ignoring now discussions that have been hashed over enough by now (multiple times, historic arguments notwithstanding) that any further discussion on them makes it really really useless. 22:42:50 Especially people who want to move Scheme away from the direction it has been going, and rewrite everything of where we are. 22:43:27 Well, the whole point of small Scheme AIUI is to move away from the direction R6RS was going. 22:44:15 Undoubtedly Thing Two will be bigger and hairier than R6RS with more stuff needed for practical application development. As such, I'm interested in it but not committed to particular positions about it. 22:44:19 jcowan: R6RS had a different scope, but I don't feel like the overall idea of what Scheme was changed. 22:44:55 Nor do I. 22:45:10 (Even if that was a garden-path sentence.) 22:45:22 jcowan: I'm talking about things like replacing hygienic macros with defmacro, or replacing modules and multiple values with first-class environments. 22:45:45 Junk. Noise. Ignore it. R5RS is the practical basis document here. 22:46:12 jcowan: Well, I'm not so afraid of using the R6RS Base library. :-) 22:46:30 Oh, and has any progress been made on the argument of evaluation order? 22:47:13 It seems to me that a lot of semi-knowledgable people, and maybe less than that, like me, have been arguing in favor of certain features without fully realizing the ramifications of such suggestions. 22:48:12 It's already possible to evaluate arguments concurrently, which would give Scheme all the concurrency it would ever need. It isn't going to be practical for a long time, if ever, to figure out when implicit parallelism should become actual concurrency. 22:48:17 So there's nothing to do there. 22:48:21 Coming from a Chez Scheme point of view, I think it's important to consider efficient implementation and optimization in these discussions, from a practical standpoint, as well as an elegance standpoint, and it seems like some of the suggestions have forgotten that some people really care a lot about speed. 22:48:38 As for the effort being premature and having to be redone: 22:49:02 jcowan: Yes, but why do people who, in my opinion, should already know this, press a viewpoint that Scheme hampers parallelization with is sequenced evaluation order semantics? 22:49:12 I'm going to do whatever I can to see that I'm on WG1. 22:49:21 LOL 22:49:33 jcowan: I'm not sure I want you on there, yet, but good luck. :-) 22:49:35 Well, not _whatever_. 22:49:43 Bribery, blackmail, murder, etc. all out. 22:49:57 You're a good bit nicer a candidate than many out there I have seen! 22:50:39 So I'd like to have a well-clarified position in advance, and the best way to clarify a position is to state it and invite other people to debate it. In addition to a lot of goo and dribble, you invariably get a lot of important corrections and see the need for a lot of clarifications. 22:50:45 Thank you! 22:51:18 Presumably you aren't sure you want me there because you're not sure you trust me to DTRT? 22:52:14 Oh, and why do they press it? Because of the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. (Call of Cthulhu references just keep coming up.) 22:53:09 jcowan: It's not that hard, and multiple people have pointed this out. 22:53:17 jcowan: Yes, I'm not sure you would do the right thing. :-) 22:53:44 But I don't know if what I want is the right thing, and thus, I don't know how to know if you would do the right thing. 22:54:06 Tell me what you want, then. I'll see what I can do. 22:54:38 jcowan: Well, honestly, when it comes to WG1, I don't see very much need to change at all from existing standards. 22:54:48 Which standards, particularly? 22:54:56 R5RS and R6RS, as they apply. 22:56:31 I'm not sure we want to try to come up with an entirely new module system, in particular. Trying to do so will likely get us to a similar compromize like we already have, so why not take what we already have and try to improve upon it to address some fundamental problem, while remain somewhat backwards compatible? 22:56:51 jcowan: I am resistant to change. R6RS has been enough of a change. 22:57:17 I'm also interested in re-evaluating the purposes of WG1 and WG2. 22:57:31 Maybe to clarify their relationships between each other to gain better synergy. 22:59:02 But then again, I want to break things apart and modularize them even further, and I haven't determined whether this is what the rest of the community wants. 23:00:01 jcowan: I have commented where I have something to say. 23:00:39 jcowan: I will have more to say soon about the nature of the relationship between the R6RS, WG1, and WG2 as I would like to see it. 23:00:50 chandler: Excellent. 23:01:02 Suffice it to say that I don't think either the R5RS or the R6RS should be ignored. 23:01:41 A glance at http://tinyurl.com/thing-one should show that I agree. I also think at least some of the SRFIs are de facto standards, however. 23:01:51 And so I have taken them into account as well. 23:02:19 arcfide: Modularize, or optionalize, or both? They are different: things can be optional without being in a module, and in a module without being optional. 23:02:28 jcowan: Both. 23:02:36 jcowan: I wonder whether we need to add anything to WG1. 23:02:57 I really don't like the verb *need*. We don't *need* anything but define and lambda. 23:02:59 jcowan: We could just separate out and start standardizing pieces without incorporating them at all. 23:03:32 jcowan: Okay, I should say, I'm not convinced of any benefit to adding anything in the current social situation. 23:03:43 Do you really want an itty-bitty standards doc for SRFI 6, or SRFI 23? 23:04:11 arcfide: I think there is a definite and unique purpose for a WG1 Scheme. This is what I'm trying to solidify my thoughts on, so I can post something half as well-thought-out as what jcowan has contributed so far. 23:04:17 (The existing SRFIs are very useful, but definitely not standards; they have both too much and too little.) 23:04:36 What is that unique purpose? I note that the SC mentions several purposes. 23:04:39 jcowan: One, I don't like SRFI-23. IIRC, and prefer R6RS', which allows an explicit who argument. 23:04:59 *jcowan* nods. 23:05:27 chandler: I'd be interested in seeing a unique purpose for the WG1. 23:05:53 jcowan: Sorry: I meant that there is at *least* one purpose to a WG1 standard which is unique from the purposes of the WG2 effort. 23:05:56 I could maybe accept the term "bare minimum Scheme to be called Scheme," but...that's troubelsome. 23:06:20 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:06:30 jcowan: Is SRFI-6 the string ports one? 23:06:52 Of course, that implicates the R6RS condition system as well. R6RS is not so simply decomposable. 23:06:56 Yes. 23:07:02 I believe I've mentioned before that I would like to see the WG1 Scheme be expressive enough, and the WG2 scheme optional enough, that a minimal implementation of the WG2 Scheme can be expressed as a WG1 Scheme program *clearly*. 23:07:15 jcowan: No, you can add R6RS' error handling from the base library without touching exceptions or conditions. 23:07:23 jcowan: At least, the way I read it, you could. 23:07:48 In that case, what does #f mean as a who? 23:08:14 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:40 If this is the case, then the WG1 document is the core canonical description of the Scheme language. I expect there to be some conflict on this matter; it probably does not fit the views of the 50-page purists well. 23:09:10 If nothing else, necessary clarifications ("R6RS crunchy goodness") will take up space. 23:09:11 I don't think that what I'd like to see is *that* different than the R6RS core / library split, except that the R6RS division is arbitrary. 23:09:12 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 23:09:28 You think that a non-arbitrary distinction exists? 23:09:47 jcowan: Unspecified, the underlying behavior of error doesn't have to be specified using conditions as R6RS does, but keeping the interface the same allows for such meaning to be applied. 23:09:51 I also think that the demand that WG2 add nothing that cannot be written in small Scheme is not reasonable, unless small Scheme is to include an FFI. 23:10:17 arcfide: I'll put that on a list of things to look at, then. 23:10:59 jcowan: I hope that wasn't a response to me; I'm not demanding that WG2 add nothing which can't be written in WG1 Scheme. 23:14:53 In that case, I don't understand "that a minimal implementation of the WG2 Scheme can be expressed as a WG1 Scheme program *clearly*". 23:15:15 It seems at least that W2 can make nothing mandatory that doesn't have roots in Thing One. 23:15:19 WG2, even 23:16:12 Right. As I've said, I want a modular WG2. 23:16:35 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:12 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:30 Meaning, one with a lot of optionality. 23:18:11 I'm going to go through R5RS and figure out where all the implicit optionality is hiding. For example, a bunch of procedures are labeled "part of every implementation that supports general complex numbers". 23:18:37 I have not even begun to think seriously about a position on what numeric types are musts, shoulds, or mays. 23:19:10 I would favor a full numeric tower as a requirement for the WG1 Scheme. As I said, this is probably a more expansive requirement than others would like to see. 23:19:40 I don't think that the WG1 should contain any low-level macro system, and as a result I believe that `syntax-case' should be optional in WG2 Scheme. 23:20:06 *jcowan* nods. 23:20:35 Does anyone have experience with inexact numbers on flonum-free chips? 23:20:36 I expect to receive disagreement from multiple constituencies with this position. 23:21:00 jcowan: I've used soft floats on ARM processors. They were provided by my compiler; I didn't have to do anything myself. 23:21:20 I strongly support the second point, both directly and as a consequence of my position "no evaluation in the compiler." 23:21:35 *jcowan* nods. 23:21:46 On some PDP-11s, C floats were soft too. 23:22:18 Food beckons. 23:22:32 As were longs, which accounts for the strange ordering of longs: BADC 23:23:28 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:24:31 (that is, two little-endian 16-bit values stored in big-endian order, the LE by hardware and the BE by software convention) 23:24:35 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:27:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:01 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:32:38 edwardk [n=edwardkm@209-6-103-127.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:33:17 I think I may have just officially become a schemer -- I started hacking up my own dialect ;) 23:34:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:13 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:40:59 Congratulations! 23:41:06 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:53 jcowan: i have a small runtime system lying around for doing parallel computation using work stealing deques so i'm trying to figure out if i can bolt a scheme on top. 23:43:06 i don't think it'll quite be r5rs, due to some fiiddly ordering guarantees, but that may be possible after cps conversion renders the code robust against evaluation order changes. 23:43:27 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 23:44:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:02 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:45:29 -!- charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has quit [] 23:45:32 -!- masm [n=masm@bl11-78-169.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:45:37 charmless [n=charmles@207.47.213.196] has joined #scheme 23:48:38 *jcowan* nods. 23:48:40 Sounds right.