00:00:02 something like that 00:00:04 ? 00:00:17 twobitsprite: thanks :) 00:00:28 np 00:02:24 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:21 -!- masm1 [n=masm@bl7-195-128.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:05:10 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:08:32 in the same way that you can test for integer return value "(if (= 1 1) ..." is it possible to check for #t and #f? 00:09:10 something like "(if (#t some-expression) ..." 00:09:17 twobitsprite: re arcfide's "you could probably port many of PLT Scheme's libraries to Gambit" -- that 00:09:37 's bogus, both systems existed for a long time, and the lack of ports should tell you something. 00:10:04 twobitsprite: And re a 3d game, check out some of the examples, specifically, if you run `plt-games' there is a jewel game that is written in GL. 00:10:56 twobitsprite: Finally, re SMP support -- don't let `native thread support' tempt you -- the speed gains are minimal if it's done naively, and AFAIK, schemes that do let you use OS threads are naive in that exact sense. 00:11:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:11:47 (To be a little more specific, the illusion of uniform memory access is breaking apart all over the place, and current research is focused on trying to exploit non-uniform memory architectures.) 00:14:05 eli: I'm not sure I understand your last point, but the other stuff I understand 00:14:52 you don't think there is a performance benefit to having multiple processors? 00:15:20 twobitsprite: is tehre a similar test for integers? 00:15:33 twobitsprite: (if (int? val) ... 00:15:50 and is there a place I can see a full list of these tests? 00:15:55 Shiba: (number?) ... also, check the r5rs spec... you can find most of this stuff there... 00:16:40 Shiba: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_start 00:16:42 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/kj6fzp 00:17:23 perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:38 thanks 00:17:40 again 00:17:43 np 00:17:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-49.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:55 Shiba: also... regarding testing for #t, that is implicit in the (if ...) form... functions like (list?), etc return #t or #f ... so (if (some-expression) ...) is fine 00:19:59 twobitsprite: if I want to test for some-expression being false? 00:20:12 oohhhhh 00:20:19 sorry :) 00:21:18 if (some-expression) returns #t, then the first branch is taken, otherwise the second... i.e. (if (some-expression) (print "true") (print "false")) 00:21:42 twobitsprite: A naive native threading will let you access shared memory freely: with no locks you usually can have your foot shot at in many exotic ways, with locks you can easily loose the performance benefits that you were hoping to get. 00:21:47 (some-expression) could be "#t" itself... i.e., (if #t (print "true") ...) 00:22:45 or (lambda (x) (if x (print "true") (print "false"))) ... if you pass this lambda "#t", then it would print "true" 00:23:07 eli: and with locks...? 00:23:18 -!- perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:23:31 ohh, nm... I should learn to read :) 00:23:56 if that was the case, why are there so many thing which operate faster in SMP setups? 00:26:35 twobitsprite: There are cases where you can separate a certain job into very well defined processes, each with its own memory -- these cases are either ones that resemble two different processes with no shared memory (or with infrequent shared memory + locks use), or it can be a program where people did a lot of hard work making such a separation. 00:26:50 In any case, doing this automatically is a pretty hot area these days. 00:27:59 well... I think there are plenty of examples (esp. in a 3d gaming context) where you can have separate threads computing different things, then feeding the results back to the parent thread 00:28:58 -!- MononcQc [n=mononcqc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING NEXT VERSION OF INTERNET"] 00:30:20 also, I know there is a lot of work being done towards auto-parallelization, but that doesn't help me now :P 00:30:40 eli: I maintain that it wouldn't be inconceivable to port many of PLT Scheme's libraries to Gambit. It probably won't be easy. 00:34:05 twobitsprite: The bottom line when it comes to threaded or concurrent programming is that it is not easy, and it requires a good understanding of the problem to do right. 00:34:24 twobitsprite: Maybe I should say that current tools do not make it easy. 00:39:44 arcfide: I agree with that completely 00:40:16 but we're still faced with the problem and waiting on some ivory tower solution isn't practicle 00:40:32 Which is why I like my native threads. :-) 00:41:14 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:41:38 btw... (since you're back) how much does chez generally go for? is it "enterprise class" in the way that allegro CL is? I.e., 3-4 digits? 00:42:38 If you want the Developer's License, i think it ranges from $800 - $1300, that's the lowest level license. Other licenses are more expensive, but include options like continued support subscriptions and the like. 00:42:56 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:22 I forget exactly how much it costs, but I think the first machine type was around $1250 for me, but don't quote me on that. :-) 00:43:43 hmm... I'm still saving up for a better video card :P 00:43:58 i.e., zero funding :P 00:44:02 :-) 00:44:26 Then paying for Chez Scheme might be difficult, unless you're doing educational University work or some such. 00:44:54 unfortunately I'm not 00:44:59 Of course, if you write your program correctly, you shouldn't be too afraid of "vender lock in." 00:45:17 I've written things in MIT Scheme which I have then moved easily over to Chez Scheme, and vice verssa. 00:45:21 s/ssa/sa/ 00:45:32 sure... but writing it for SMP without an SMP implementation would be difficult 00:45:52 ... at best 00:46:28 Use a system with green threading. 00:46:38 I'm not familiar with that term 00:46:59 twobitsprite: The Scheme threads things itself using its own scheduler, rather than an OS level thread system. 00:47:14 twobitsprite: It may or may not implement that using native threads. 00:47:38 true... but then when you move to native threads with SMP you discover all of your corner-case race conditions 00:48:01 But there are more Schemes that offer that. Then you can bulid the concurrency into you rprogram the way you want and easily move to a native threading system if you feel it is necessary or warranted. You just have to be careful that blocking system calls don't tie up your system. 00:48:07 and tracking those down after the project is full steam ahead isn't simple 00:48:24 *arcfide* shrugs nonchalantly. 00:48:33 You're writing SMP code. Don't make mistakes. :-P 00:48:39 lol 00:48:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 00:50:13 You could get really fancy and formally model or design your system in a theorem prover based way, and then formally prove properties about the SMP algorithms that demonstrate their safety. :-) 00:50:19 twobitsprite: I suspect that those 3d games examples fall into the "like two separate processes" category, since a typical 3d game has several parts that are mostly unconnected. 00:50:55 eli: they could be deeply connected... 00:51:26 eli: inner loops, etc would be contained, but might need to constantly communicate to other threads 00:51:28 arcfide: "wouldn't be inconceivable" is obviously true, given that we're all TM-complete; but as most TM arguments, it doesn't go too far. The bottom line is very little porting going on between the two implementation, and the reasons for that should be obvious. 00:52:01 eli: No one has the time nor inclination to do so? 00:52:24 That's one of the reasons that I don't pull things in from PLT Scheme. 00:52:40 twobitsprite: I'm talking about the kind of connection that make SMP computations inefficient. If you have some kind of a worker thread that computes and returns immutable values for a consumer thread, then they're separated well for SMP purposes. 00:52:40 Well, not much, anyways. 00:53:07 arcfide: Besides that, there's the usual array of PLT features that are just missing from Gambit. 00:53:40 could someone post the link to the 3-d game written in scheme example again? 00:53:43 arcfide: For example, take the simple `custodian' tool: it's very important in server situations, but it is not something you can encapsulate as a library. 00:54:08 arcfide: Same goes for unicode support, modules & syntax, and the other 2 ton of features. 00:54:29 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:54:48 emma: Start "PLT Games" if you have PLT installed, there are a few games that are done with GL. 00:54:59 okay 00:55:03 emma: Are you talking about PLT games or the Gamerizon game? 00:55:23 i dont know which i just saw someone say there was a 3d game written in scheme 00:55:35 im curious to see any example of any game written in scheme 00:55:36 emma: More than one. 00:56:05 emma: http://www.gamerizon.com/index.html 00:56:33 too bad it doesn't run in linux, I'd like to check it out 00:56:52 emma: The game that arcfide is talking about will not help you much if you want to see code. (It's a commercial game.) The games in PLT do have their sources, of course. 00:57:07 emma: And there are probably many other games lying around the web. 00:58:41 emma: Here's a commercial game written in Scheme: http://www.gamerizon.com/ 00:59:11 Whoops. I'm not reading before I write. 00:59:12 *eli* points chandler four lines up the log 00:59:14 *chandler* slaps self 00:59:45 incubot: (delay chandler) 00:59:46 # 00:59:49 emma: (As you can see, schemers find this exciting enough that you should expect a long line of people pointing you at the same place...) 01:00:33 hehe 01:03:10 chandler: how do you know that game is written in scheme? 01:04:26 im actually on a GREYHOUND BUS right now believe it or not so my connection is not very fast or stable. 01:05:36 steiger_1: think about the scheme community as a local book club, with about 50 members who meet once a week; then a review of one of the members gets into the new york times -- chances are many people in the club will know about it. 01:06:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:11 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 01:07:57 *arcfide* chuckles. 01:08:00 emma: But you have a connection! That's something. 01:08:12 Yeah kind of surprising. 01:08:20 ive been on the bus now for like 29 hours. 01:08:23 steiger_1: One of the authors told me about it. So, eli's analogy is spot on. :-) 01:08:31 eli: i see 01:08:42 but this last bus that we transfered on to has outlets and wifi on the bus. 01:09:22 29 hours and that's just on the last bus? 01:09:34 Is this some trans-continental bus line? 01:09:34 29 hours total so far. 01:09:38 im going back to nyc. 01:10:04 I got on to the bus yesterday at 3:25 pm and it is 9:09 pm the next day now. 01:10:25 but i think maybe only an hour or so from NYC now. 01:10:32 Well, at least you're in the correct time zone now. 01:10:38 yeah 01:10:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:00 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:11:27 (Although the thought of "back to nyc" makes me sick...) 01:11:39 did you live in NYC? 01:11:52 For a year, and I really didn't like it. 01:11:57 You see I was on vacation visiting family back in the midwest. 01:12:02 *arcfide* continues to try to undestand scm-rendezvous. 01:12:40 Pretty much any place I've seen in the US looked better to live in than manhattan... 01:12:42 *chandler* continues to try to understand a rat's nest of awful code 01:12:56 Im running ubuntu on this laptop and im surprised it can handle the bus wifi. 01:13:05 but i've used it to sudo aptitude install drscheme 01:13:17 hopefully that has the plt stuff as dependencies? 01:13:19 Unprotected WiFi is not usually an issue. 01:13:38 emma: Can it sudo apt-get replace ubuntu -with slackware? 01:13:43 :-) 01:14:00 emma: I was about to say that IRC is very light, but installing PLT is going to cost you about 30mb. 01:14:08 I tried slackware out once. It doesn't seem very practical as a desktop and it's super-bloated. 01:14:16 ... bloated?! 01:14:19 yeah 01:14:20 ??? 01:14:27 Wow, um...that's a first. 01:14:28 Did you install dropline or something? 01:15:03 when you get slackware, you must realize, slackware was made back before the days of broadband, or even strong dialup. So they have this disk system, and pretty much everything you have ever heard of, get's installed. 01:15:21 kde, gnome, everything. just everything. 01:15:27 *arcfide* raises an eyebrow. 01:15:42 There's a heck of a lot more choice in the Slackware installer than in the Ubuntu installer. 01:15:52 there is yes. 01:15:57 The Ubuntu installer just plops some "desktop" set of packages on your system. 01:16:01 but the default choices in ubuntu installer are pretty clean and sane. 01:16:17 with slackware, it's just everything. 01:16:49 gotta give you everything because in slackwares heyday there was no broadband so it was either give it all to you or else you have to get it in the mail. 01:17:12 *arcfide* isn't even sure how to respond. 01:17:51 *chandler* chooses not to bother. 01:17:53 also a lot of things that ubuntu makes simple are left undone in slackware. 01:18:08 for example, in slackware you have no audio until you add yourself to the audio-group. 01:18:23 that's not 'flexibility' that's just unifinished work. In my opinion. 01:19:10 i suppose you guys run slackware? 01:19:21 emma: You might ... want to take a look at Slackware, and not this strange entity of which you speak that has little resemblance to any Slackware I have ever seen. 01:20:10 i got the slackware from it's main site, it is laid out in 'disks' like as if it came in various floppy disks. with letter names on them. 01:20:10 Or not. Honestly, if Ubuntu works for you, there's little reason to do anything else. 01:20:36 you have to run fdisk or something to set up a partition or some such thing. 01:20:40 I actually did it believe it or not. 01:20:47 I just didn't think it was so great. 01:20:52 *arcfide* sighs. 01:21:37 In any event, religious wars about distributions are *much* less interesting than those about Scheme implementations. 01:21:37 arcfide: don't worry, you aren't going insane... the description given by emma doesn't fit my recollection of slackware either 01:22:03 hey then you guys should check it out. I stand by what i've said. 01:22:25 not even any package manager in slackware. 01:22:37 emma: sure there is... it's called "tar" 01:22:40 chandler: Indeed. 01:22:57 twobitsprite: Uh, no. You don't want to install slack packages with tar. 01:22:58 *arcfide* keels over from laughter inside his own mind. 01:23:08 :) 01:23:17 LOL, oh, my . . . 01:23:24 *arcfide* wipes a mental tear from his eyes. 01:23:29 Where's this stuff coming from? 01:23:31 This is good. 01:24:00 It's the same set of misinformation and FUD that caused me to stop caring about #slackware a long, long time ago. 01:24:26 This is not misinformation nor fud, this is the truth. 01:24:26 chandler: I use #slackware on OFTC if I need to, but usually I don't. 01:24:56 emma, emma, emma . . . whatever are we going to do with you? :-) 01:24:59 emma: how is slackware bloated?! 01:25:09 steiger_1: Don't ask! 01:25:55 which part are you saying is not accurate? (!) it is organized in 'disks' because there was no broadband when it was made? (2) There is no package manager, (3) by default it will install way too much stuff? 01:26:24 I did see you can sit there and one by one go through everything it WANTS to install and decline to install it. 01:26:42 emma: http://www.slackbook.org/html/package-management.html 01:26:46 emma: I'll tell you off channel. I'm sure most people here already know it. 01:26:47 but by default it installs everything you have ever heard of. 01:26:52 anyway, arcfide , going on topic, i did aptitude install plt-scheme on debian and it worked nicely 01:27:01 arcfide: Yeah, uh, and that's a whole 'nother set of politics right there. I suppose it doesn't matter much now that lilo has left this plane of existence for another. 01:27:06 (the OFTC thing, that is.) 01:27:26 Heheh. 01:27:41 Honestly, Slackware is a modern distribution. Gosh, there's even an official x86_64 port now. Will wonders never cease? 01:27:44 yeah that makes me sad. 01:28:11 I wasn't on Freenode when 'lilo' was here but since Freenode has become a favorite hobby of mine, i heard about him, and it just makes me sad. 01:28:53 Dag-nabit young whippersnappers. 01:29:06 emma: http://www.slackbook.org/html/installation-setup.html#AEN1062 01:29:29 did you skip over that prompt in the installer without reading perhaps? 01:30:32 -!- steiger_1 [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:30:32 -!- steiger__ [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:30:33 arcfide, it occurs to me that my current implementation of scm-rendezvous assumes that critical regions stop the world. If this is not the case -- as it may not be in Chez --, you'll need a little more mechanism. 01:31:05 wait a second, what happened to lilo? 01:31:06 Riastradh: critical section disables all interrupts and some other things, I'll lookup exactly what. 01:31:07 from the book --- The full option will install every package from all the software series that you chose in the “select” section. There is no further prompting. 01:31:18 and ubuntu? gah. 01:31:25 that's the default ^ 01:31:36 emma: so, you admit you chose the "full" option and then complain about it installing everything? 01:31:55 It's the default and it's recommended in the slackware installer even. 01:32:12 ... with the caveat that it takes up a lot of space 01:32:15 i actually installed slackware two or three times after I saw how much cruft the full install gave you. 01:32:36 i have plenty of space i just hate to see that I have 4 different apps that do the same thing. 01:32:39 anyways, this is way off topic, and the Mrs. beckons 01:32:41 And now's the time on our program where I say: "will you kids *please* get off the lawn and have your religious discussions about Scheme implementations instead of Linux distributions?" 01:33:00 see ya 01:33:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["SuSE über alles!"] 01:36:19 steiger [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has joined #scheme 01:37:51 Heh. Late hit by mejja. 01:38:10 -!- steiger [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has quit [Client Quit] 01:39:24 steiger [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has joined #scheme 01:39:57 -!- decker [n=chatzill@user-0c9h6n8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 01:40:37 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:46:47 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has joined #scheme 01:46:54 Hallo jcowan. 01:49:40 Hey there. 01:52:55 I'm just about to post on Unicode and Thing One 01:54:21 *eli* goes out to look for the vomitorium 01:54:46 I think if you're going out, you'll probably find one. 01:55:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:55:03 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:42 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 01:56:05 Don't jump to conclusions till you've seen it. 01:56:11 Then you can burn me alive. 01:56:20 But I demand the Romulan Right of Statement. 01:59:12 The idea that "vomitoria" were rooms for the purpose of vomiting is mistaken. 01:59:55 I'm sure eli knows that, and I expect that jcowan does too. 02:00:29 I didn't know until last year, when I actually saw my first vomitorium :/ 02:00:40 What eli said makes perfect sense under either meaning of the word, foof. 02:00:49 I thought to myself "that's a terrible place to spew!" 02:01:40 foof: Yes, I saw that after I used "vomitorium" and was surprised to see that the word exists. I did mean it in the sense of how it sounds like, but as Riastradh noted the technical meaning works too. 02:02:02 Oh. I expected that you were making a clever joke about heading for the exits. 02:02:21 *jcowan* will be grateful if he doesn't come out of this whole R7RS process smelling like puke. 02:03:57 well, that's more about your grandson, and less about R7RS, isn't it? 02:04:26 r7rs is in the works? 02:04:37 didn't r6rs just come out? 02:06:10 offby1: No. 02:06:10 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:47 twobitsprite: Yes. In this case, it would be appropriate to draw a causal inference. 02:08:07 chandler: No. Unless you count the accidental retrospect. 02:08:16 jcowan: Too late, at least from my end. 02:09:30 chandler: asking those sorts of questions are generally used to prompt the other person to elaborate 02:09:32 eli: What, when you breathe out of your end, I smell like puke? Curious. 02:09:57 twobitsprite: Giving those kinds of answers is an invitation to infer things the person would rather not say directly. 02:10:33 jcowan: No; it's rather that the relevant threads have received a good amount of virtual puke from my virtual direction. 02:11:42 interesting 02:13:27 twobitsprite: The bottom line is that there is absolutely nothing "in the works". 02:13:49 There are vague plans for how to start the works, but not even people who will work on them. 02:13:59 There is certainly something in the flames, but whether that `works' is another question. 02:13:59 Yet the flames are raging on. 02:14:00 ahh, I see 02:14:32 And the flames themselves are also amazingly ... . 02:14:38 I can't find a good word for that. 02:15:00 Baiscally, every single argument that was raised in the last two decades is re-raised now. 02:15:58 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:16 arguments about basic language philosophy kind of stuff? 02:17:46 eli: The *truly* relevant thread has not yet begun. 02:17:52 (see John Paul Jones) 02:18:45 twobitsprite: Arguments about everything you can think about, and more. 02:19:04 jcowan: So all of this time wastage is just a prelude to an even greater time wastage? 02:27:03 Sometimes it is nice to just get all ones thoughts out in nice, inflammatory fashion. 02:28:04 Although I do admit to being very surprised at the sheer explosion of messages, and in particular the continued persistance (myself included) of those involved. 02:32:08 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 02:36:36 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Broken pipe] 02:36:40 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 02:36:56 Why should you be? I am, after all, attacking motherhood and pie 02:37:17 I should be highly disappointed if I weren't burned in effigy *somewhere*. 02:38:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:38:39 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 02:40:56 May I know who Arcfide is on the ML? I don't have yet a total bijective mapping real-name -> irc-nickname 02:42:50 wow, what a nerdy way to phrase it 02:45:14 Geeky. 02:45:50 *jcowan* messages Axioplase. 02:47:33 Axioplase: If you /whois him (or /whowas him now), you should be able to find out who he is. 02:47:39 Ditto for me. 02:48:07 hey guys 02:49:31 steiger pasted "?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86744 02:49:44 can someone explain why the difference? 02:50:40 Can I first ask why you're using either of those languages? 02:50:47 *jcowan* is tempted to label his points in the Unicode posting in Greek, just to see who's watching. 02:50:58 chandler: i'm running through HtDP 02:51:04 Ah. 02:51:44 steiger: You shouldn't use the pretty big language. 02:52:14 jcowan: Attacking? You've went with the flow and are comparing IEEE to R4RS... 02:52:18 eli: go on. why not? warts? 02:52:51 steiger: "pretty big" is a legacy language, intended to allow running old code. 02:53:04 It's deprecated. Module is the one language to rule them all, more or less. 02:53:25 i see 02:54:53 jcowan: It took me almost two decades -- but after a long time of wondering with the rest "how come Scheme lost yet again to {TCL,JavaScript,Perl,Python,Haskell,...}", and wishing to see Scheme actually winning one such thing -- this whole r"7"rs and the flamage makes me think that "the scheme \"community\"" *deserves* every such punishment. 02:55:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:56:54 Perhaps, then, it is more important for the Scheme principles to win than for the language-which-is-called-Scheme to win. 02:58:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:58:33 The principles should win? You mean like the principle of re-opening every decision made in the last 20 years for a re^N-debate? 02:59:10 I wish the steering commitee would be a bit more active in the discussion. 02:59:35 If "Scheme" was a company, it would be so bankrupt, that the negative amount it had in the bank would overflow and become positive again, then go on to be negative once more. 03:00:10 eli: I think you could probably infer that I was referring to technical principles, not standardization process principles. 03:00:12 Only with a crappy integer implementation. 03:00:54 We say bad things about politicians who "trim their sails to every passing wind", though this is both a necessary and a meritorious part of the art of navigation. 03:01:50 I also wonder how people can spend so much time wanking the yak, while it would be, I suppose, much more productive to say "let's do that and see how it goes. If everyone complains we'll change it. And maybe that will make thousands of users move to scheme". 03:02:32 You'll have to articulate what those principles are, chandler, which I suspect is a non-trivial exercise. 03:03:23 I mean, I don't think that Haskell suffers that much. They do have several, not fully compatible , implementations, and people just add this or that. It works well, other copy it in their implementation, and whop! it is considered good! 03:04:02 But there is Haskell 98, and (surprise!) a new standardization process is underway. 03:04:14 Even CL is running a CLtL3 process. 03:04:30 (piling Ossa on Olympus, and Pelion on Ossa) 03:04:43 chandler: Yes I could, but to add to what Riastradh said -- a community that is as dysfunctional as this can't really produce anything (as a *community*). 03:05:20 I doubt any haskeller would deny that GHC is a leading implementation. 03:05:36 chandler: For example, see hygiene -- it was one of THE Scheme trademarks, and now people long nostalgically to going back to `defmacro' and even to fexpers and first class environments. 03:05:54 Riastradh: I'm of the opinion that the introduction and overview of the R5RS articulated the principles of the language quite well. I suppose the R4RS revisionists would disagree, though. 03:06:00 eli: They are a vocal minority, and that really came out of the blue. 03:06:34 Basing small scheme on R4RS or R5RS or R6RS is at least a valid discussion. 03:06:38 jcowan: The CLtL3 process is unserious, and has no implementor pull that I'm aware of. 03:07:03 chandler: So to an outsider this "Scheme community" is basically saying "Ummm... Hygiene might be a good idea, I think, maybe, but maybe not, maybe something we thought of in the 80s is better after all. But maybe it is. Or not. Actually, it all depends on how you look at it. Oh, look -- a shiny coin!" 03:07:34 chandler: IOW, that's no community that anyone will take seriously, no matter what the technical principles are. 03:08:24 chandler, actually, I think there's another principle that I care about: the concepts in the language should lend themselves to a clear implementation. 03:08:28 I'd go for R4RS if it was what I expected of small scheme. But I'd even go further, forget all backwards compatibility, and invest into something maybe radically different (just like Perl 6 is different from Perl 5) 03:08:43 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:54 I believe this community is vocal because there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that they will get their way. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking. 03:09:13 *eli* sighs 03:09:33 The ridiculousness starts at the top, with the whole small/large scheme. 03:10:06 eli: I think it's a community that seems not to care about its users: "invoke any obscure reason not to do something, and write 30 mails about it." 03:10:35 If Scheme weren't fast on it's way to a nearby grave, it would probably only take another decades to realize that the division is much better done as small/medium/large scheme. 03:10:46 There should be "conservative/progressive scheme". 03:10:51 I'm inclined to disagree. I think it's a plausible divison, and I think it's even possible to arrange things so that a minimally conforming Thing Two is a standard library which can be loaded on a minimally conforming Thing One. 03:11:19 There should be good implementations of a variety of ideas that demonstrate their merit. Lacking that, no amount of talking will get anywhere. 03:11:30 One for people who want to stick to current Schemes, and one for change. Yes we can! 03:11:39 chandler: No, that's exactly one thing that was clarified, that the distinction is not one that can be done with libraries -- otherwise there is no point in doing that distinction. 03:11:41 chandler: I don't think that will be possible. 03:12:03 s/one/the one/ 03:12:15 For example, small scheme is unlikely to support low-level macros. 03:12:24 What the heck is a `low-level' macro? 03:12:28 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:13:02 Riastradh: Yes, that term is confusing and inappropriate, but it's consistently used within the scheme community. 03:13:19 I don't want Thing Two to require a low-level macro system either. In my opinion, that was a mistake by the R6RS authors. 03:13:30 Well, I've certainly heard it a lot, but that doesn't imply that it uses share a consistent meaning. 03:13:41 eli: "If Scheme weren't fast on it's way to a nearby grave" yikes! 03:13:51 All I asked for was R4RS + Several sets of useful procedures (like several SRFIs, with threads, file IOs, TCP client/servers, time), but mandatory 03:14:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:14:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 03:15:56 In my opinion, it would be a mistake if a minimal implementation of Thing Two could *not* be expressed in Thing One. This probably implies a smaller mandatory subset of Thing Two and a larger Thing One than many would like, I suppose. 03:16:06 I take "low-level" to mean "you write Scheme code that explicitly conses Scheme code. 03:16:30 chandler: So, for example, if Thing Two had a sockets package, then there must be some sockets support in Thing One? 03:16:46 It must be optional in Thing Two. 03:16:52 Ah. 03:17:12 I'm about to post my tl;dr message on Unicode, but I'll post just the principles here. There are only two. 03:17:39 Principle #1: No small Scheme implementation is required to support any specific Unicode character or repertoire (collection of characters), with the obvious exception of the ASCII repertoire. 03:17:41 I would favor little to no optionality in Thing One and a maximum of optionality (at a library level) in Thing Two. 03:18:09 chandler: We disagree on that. If T2 has sockets, I want it mandatory. But T1 may implement sockets too, provided it shares the same API/semantics. 03:18:09 Principle #2: Unicode is the predominant character standard today, and a small Scheme implementation's treatment of characters must conform to it, insofar as this does not conflict with Principle #1. 03:18:48 I see T1 as an "incomplete T2". 03:19:12 Why should it be mandatory? Is it sensible to forbid a T2 implementation in an environment where sockets are not available? 03:19:38 jcowan: This seems sensible to me. 03:19:51 I even inserted a sop to "-t". 03:20:38 You're missing the third law, which is that a robot, er, a Scheme implementation may include support for other character sets where it does not conflict with the first or second principle. 03:20:47 chandler: I'd rather see T1's that do more, that T2's that don't do enough. I think that this is precisely the point of having T2 and T1 03:20:48 That would be the sop. 03:20:56 Heh. 03:21:06 Actually, I said "other characters". 03:21:20 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:22:17 chandler: I can't think of any langage that has no sockets, beside esoteric ones such as brainfuck, intercal and scheme! (and esoteric languages are not taken seriously by people-who-want-to-get-things-done) 03:22:21 Don't forget #4! A Scheme implementation may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 03:22:22 Not quite the same thing. All character sets have the same semantics for their characters: an A is an A, an Alpha is an Alpha, and an alef is an alef in all character encodings. 03:22:47 What, no Schemes on missiles? That's contrary to the principles of open-source implementation. 03:23:13 And #5. A Scheme robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the Fourth Law. 03:23:19 Ahem. A Scheme implementation. *hiccup* 03:23:53 I think the small/large scheme idea is a good one but shouldn't have been marketed as small/large 03:24:07 level 1/level 2 conformance would be better 03:24:08 Those are only temporary names, not marketing terms yet. 03:24:24 The latest suggestion I made was School and Cool, but I don't think it'll fly. 03:24:31 level 1 requires less of the standardized libraries. Level 2 requires all of them 03:24:38 bedridden/useful ? 03:24:43 *jcowan* sees no point in mandatory libraries. 03:24:55 jcowan: No, but it might McFly! 03:24:58 They are just extra bureaucracy for programmers. 03:25:06 The father, or the son? 03:25:51 jcowan: I don't say "librairie". I say "set of procedures". You may have them as libraries, or hardcoded, I don't care, provided I can connect to port N of machine M. 03:26:25 Not too useful when running in Tom Lord's light switch. 03:26:26 jcowan: Aha! McFly and McFly. What could go wrong? 03:26:38 Or better yet, call them both Scheme! 03:26:52 No, that's too confusing. 03:26:54 Human beings are *good* at disambiguating from context. 03:27:16 And we can call Pascal "Scheme" too. 03:28:15 Hmm. Ten mentions of ASCII in a post on Unicode. 03:28:19 Good. 03:28:23 Riastradh: I think it's appropriate to apply those laws to Scheme robots (incl. R. Kent Dybvig) as well. 03:28:28 How many mentions of EBCDIC? 03:28:42 None, but I'll add one if it makes you vote for it. 03:29:06 Actually, I'd like to see Finnegan's Wake turn up again. That was a good easter egg in my text API proposal. 03:29:14 Okay, added. 03:29:16 (I think only one reader caught it.) 03:29:20 EBCDIC, that is 03:29:37 I don't see how I can fit FW into this one. 03:29:52 Yes, it was a bit easier in an API reference than in a sequential essay. 03:30:00 jcowan: how can you not like manditory libraries? You don't like the C Standard Library or POSIX? 03:30:32 In C, *every* procedure is in the library. 03:30:38 And yes, #include is annoying. 03:30:58 Why should I have to copy that into my code? I'm talking to a *computer*, which should be able to find that out for itself. 03:31:10 jcowan: every procedure is not in the C Standard Library 03:32:40 jcowan: that is not an argument against libraries. That is an argument against the include line which really isn't necessary but can be beneficial to help programmers avoid mistakes 03:32:58 (it is necessary in C but isn't necessary for the concept of library) 03:33:13 peter_12: My meaning is that there are no procedures prescribed by C that are elsewhere than in the library. 03:33:31 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:33:32 peter_12: Sorry, it should have been: If "Scheme" weren't fast on its way to a nearby grave, ... 03:33:33 In R6RS, there are both library and non-library identifiers. 03:33:44 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:45 Scheme will never die. 03:33:56 Sure it will. And deservedly so. 03:34:06 If all definitions are at the same place, and that no name clashing occurs, it should be possible for the compiler to include/link without any hint. 03:34:20 Of course it won't, eli. There will always be nutcases barricading its grave, just like they barricade the grave of fexprs, THE-ENVIRONMENT, and other such nonsense. 03:34:31 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:34:31 It is one of the Great Old Ones. 03:34:35 "When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die." 03:34:50 Arguing endlessly about trivial details is inevitable when you want something beautiful, and really isn't a bad thing, though it gets frustrating at times. 03:34:59 "That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy." 03:35:12 Riastradh: Yes, of course. (Just like it's possible to find people who swear that Pascal use is growing better then ever...) 03:36:37 Well, pessimism is very easy, but some people have taken it upon themselves to man up and act like optimists. 03:36:43 synx: dherman just put out a new version of json, with "main.ss". 03:37:25 oops, okay then 03:37:58 jcowan: The main pessimism is not in the flamage -- it's in the *real* SC-for-r7rs "progress" which was bad, and nothing happened since then. 03:38:02 After a dozen score messages on the r6rs-discuss list, mostly about drivel and nonsense, I have to say that what little optimism I had last week has most thoroughly evaporated. 03:38:45 I seriously don't know what's the point of all this verbiage, and I seriously think that "Scheme" will die if all of this is happening even before something is actually happening. 03:39:05 Riastradh: Remember - vocal minority. 03:39:19 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:31 The only implementor even participating in that discussion is Jaffer. 03:39:54 (and one post from Kawai) 03:40:03 (And at a nice timing, Jaffer suggests turning Scheme into Python.) 03:40:07 `Rich! Listen to me! All you've got to do is just stand up, and do something! Listen! Something is actually happening right now! Rich, something is HAPPENING! OOOOOAARRRGHHHH!' `Whew, a little interjection from the feminist movement there -- oh, sorry, Loretta! Anyway, I think this calls for an immediate discussion and vote.' 03:40:26 synx: you were the one that thought Dave Herman was a dummyhead for naming the file json.ss, correct? I emailed him and he changed it to main.ss in version 2.0 03:41:01 john [n=john@adsl-64-216-140-203.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:06 -!- john is now known as Guest86602 03:41:23 I was joking about the dummy-head part. 03:41:29 It's nice that he changed it. 03:41:45 I see now eli just mentioned that 03:42:18 The point of the verbiage, drivel, and nonsense is that that's what discussions in free societies look like. 03:42:33 -!- Guest86602 [n=john@adsl-64-216-140-203.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:35 Technocracy is all very well, but kings are not philosophers, nor are philosophers kings. 03:43:52 You'll note that we have not descended to personalities or incivility. 03:44:42 (May I consider that seriously proposing fexprs, THE-ENVIRONMENT, and non-hygienic macros to be incivility?) 03:45:17 Folly is not incivility. 03:45:53 Your mom is not incivility. 03:46:10 Those are not merely folly, jcowan. Their proponents appear to be serious. 03:46:53 Well, "foolish" and "absurd" have two senses: those which appear to all, including the proponents, to be so; and those which appear only to some people to be so. 03:46:59 Not including the proponents. 03:47:19 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 03:47:23 I point you to Daemmerung's remark anent me. 03:48:02 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:48:04 emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:48:56 *eli* +1s Riastradh 03:49:18 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:49:35 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:51:11 *jcowan* soooo much wants an extensible lexical structure/syntax 03:51:51 *jcowan* whines about it 03:52:50 *jcowan* goes off to be emo somewhere else 03:52:56 Hey, before you go... 03:53:04 Yeeeees? 03:53:08 You raaaaang? 03:53:17 I know you're in the sensible part of the state, rather than the insensible part, but do you by any remote chance have any recommendations for places to find lunch in Albany? 03:53:43 Other than going to Albany Airport a time or two, I haven't been in the city in at least 40 years. 03:54:06 *jcowan* notes that in addition to his island residence, he also has a house on the mainland. 03:55:41 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:55 Poeir [n=Poeir@98.222.133.165] has joined #scheme 03:58:58 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:04:01 eli: how is the PLT source tree turned into the mzscheme mac distribution, for example? Looking in following tag there is not a top level makefile that can combine bits from the four directories. http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/tags/v4.2.1/ 04:06:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:06:47 good night folks 04:07:03 -!- steiger [n=steiger@189.105.53.164] has quit ["leaving"] 04:35:11 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:36:08 eli: if you happen to see my question above and can answer, I will check the logs in the morning. 04:38:33 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 04:44:15 -!- haesbaert [n=haesbaer@c925a8c5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:21 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 04:45:24 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:00:19 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:25 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:06:11 -!- csoy [n=csoy@174-143-208-224.static.cloud-ips.com] has left #scheme 05:06:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 05:15:11 rcy [n=rcy@S01060013464aedc3.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:18 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:23 crypto [n=z0d@62.112.193.85] has joined #scheme 05:15:45 -!- crypto is now known as Guest40477 05:19:22 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 05:19:47 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:00 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:32 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060013464aedc3.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:38:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:49 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:40:26 -!- Shiba [n=mohr@boys.temerity.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:45:06 minion: memo for arcfide: I have a totally untested idea in the form of code for a port of scm-rendezvous to Chez. Some time this week perhaps I'll mock it up in Scheme48 and test it. 05:45:07 Remembered. I'll tell arcfide when he/she/it next speaks. 05:45:11 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:19 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 05:49:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:50:44 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:50:50 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:29 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:11:23 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has left #scheme 06:11:23 haesbaert [n=haesbaer@c925a8c5.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 06:16:46 gopher, wtf? 06:17:33 -!- Guest40477 is now known as z0d 06:34:10 dmoerner_ [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 06:39:17 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:39:39 -!- Fade 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your parentheis is wrong 11:10:52 move the one at the very end, to after (analyze px py pz) 11:11:20 you also do not need to wrap analyze in a lambda if the arguments are the same 11:11:40 so you can so (for-each analyze pxList pyList pzList) 11:13:44 ah ok - it's working now :) 11:15:35 I first tried to define only one list instead of three 11:16:02 so I defined vectors, but analyze wouldn't take those 11:16:49 there are other ways, but stick to lists for now :) 11:17:16 -!- rntz [n=rntz@pool-96-235-185-65.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:13 hehe, ok 11:23:40 Vapour: the lisppaste service is also very handy, it can highlight matching parens 11:25:00 I usually use vim, which highlights the paranthesis as well 11:25:23 Vapour: and don't put )) on separate lines (I have seen it in the screenshots of your scheme implementation, but that's definitely not good style). 11:26:04 why not? besides the aesthetics? 11:27:09 Vapour: yep, exactly. Because it confuses people. 11:28:15 *Leonidas* would use vim if it were half as good for typing scheme code as drscheme. Unfortunately, it isn't. 11:29:00 Leonidas: ugh, and I thought drscheme was like IDLE for python... 11:29:02 shame on me! 11:29:14 I don't know drscheme... why is it so good? 11:30:03 derdon: it looks like idle and sometimes it feels like idle (I also hesitated using it) but it works almost perfectly out of the box. 11:30:52 Vapour: because it highlights parens with background colors (I haven't found a setting in vim to do the same), because of the integrated repl, because of the out-of-the-box-correct indentation. 11:31:11 Vapour: because of the check syntax tool, because of the macro stepper. 11:31:16 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 11:31:45 Leonidas: maybe there is a vim script for highlighting parenthesis with different backgroundcolors 11:31:46 I would also say, because of the debugger, but actually the debugger UI is IMHO quite painful. 11:32:04 -!- weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 11:32:06 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 11:32:33 derdon: maybe. But since I am using vim only in the terminal, the script will most likely only support 16 terribly ugly and distracting background colors. 11:32:50 derdon: vim has syntax highlighting, paranthesis highlighting and indents for scheme 11:33:08 Vapour: indents for scheme or proper indents for scheme? 11:33:16 but a debugger would be a great thing 11:33:37 Leonidas: hehe, I don't know what "proper indents" for scheme look like 11:34:04 it does it the same way as SchemeEdit, so I suppose it's good 11:34:17 Vapour: you know that not everything is indented in the same way? 11:34:48 no.. why is that? 11:35:48 Vapour: to visually defferentiate between functions, macros and special forms, I suppose. 11:36:09 Leonidas: what are "specia forms"? 11:36:12 *special 11:36:57 Vapour: and vim is usually quite dumb when it comes to indentation or highlighting, because it does not *understand* what the code does. Emacs is smarter in that regard, but I am unable to configure that thing properly. Hence DrScheme 11:37:13 derdon: 'if' is a special form, for example 11:37:46 or cond, depending on your implementation. But you need at least one of them, the other can be written as macro 11:38:33 derdon: for some other see http://www-pu.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/users/sperber/pfg-2001/scheme/schintro-v14/schintro_17.html 11:38:53 Leonidas: thx 11:38:54 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/mdeezl 11:39:37 actually, I'm pretty sure that let/let* and letrec* don't *need* to be special forms, they can be written using lambda 11:40:10 (which of course, has to be a special form. Without a way to define procedures we're somehow stuck *g*) 11:41:12 Leonidas: We would always have jumps. 11:41:57 -!- Sveklo2 [n=sveklo@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 11:42:16 yeah, jumps, conditions and variables are more or less enough :) 11:43:17 Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:47:15 `if' definitely does not need to be a special form. 11:47:39 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:06 I think r5rs says let and its variants are part of the _library_ 11:51:21 danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 11:52:10 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 11:53:44 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:24 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 11:59:52 sstrickl [n=sstrickl@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:04:18 Jafet: r5rs includes definitions of let and its variants as macros. 12:04:43 chandler: you mean by having cond as special form, or in some other way? 12:29:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:30:13 Leonidas: I've just noticed that (g)vim indents with 2 spaces after special forms and with 4 spaces otherwise. Is that the correct/expected behaviour? 12:30:39 `if' doesn't need to be a special form if true and false are procedures like (true pass fail) => (pass) and (false pass fail) => (fail) 12:31:18 foof, if has different semantics than a procedure 12:34:53 yeah! my first scheme script is working - and, moreover, it does what it is supposed to do :) 12:36:31 does a ternary operator exist for scheme? 12:37:25 problem solved :) 12:39:22 I do not think scheme has any `operators`... 12:41:34 -!- hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:41:34 derdon: no. Sometimes the indent is 2 spaces, sometimes it is "the indent of the previous form + the length of the name of that form". 12:41:51 derdon: wait a second, I'll make an example 12:42:44 hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:42:47 Leonidas: so I use a indentation of 4 spaces until you suggest s.th. better 12:43:45 derdon: the exact rules are described in Riastradh's style guide (you can find a tl;dr version on grant rettkes blog) which is to me a bit like PEP8 12:45:07 Leonidas: this one? http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 12:45:21 Leonidas pasted "indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86757 12:45:32 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:34 derdon: exactly, that one. 12:46:01 derdon: most people just say: let emacs handle indentation (because it does it right). 12:46:29 Leonidas: hm, maybe I should emacs give a 4th or 5th chance 12:46:35 for me it is s/emacs/drscheme/ so I don't need to think about how to do it properly :) 12:47:03 but I think it's more realistic that i will come to drscheme like you ;) 12:47:24 derdon: maybe. There are definitely some things that I do like about emacs, but everytime I try it is an even bigger mess than vim already is. 12:48:11 Leonidas: what dou you like about emacs? these "features" which the haters claim about? 12:48:18 derdon: look at my paste: you see there are some things that are indented 2 spaces, and some things that are alighned to the first argument in the (if sexp 12:48:30 yep, I see 12:48:52 actually, I adjust it manually 12:49:30 derdon: I for one, quite like the smart indentation (this is available in drscheme as well, but limited to scheme): you press tab anywhere on the line, and it automatically repositions the line to the proper place. 12:49:53 *rotty* would go crazy without automatic indent (in any language) 12:49:55 awesome! 12:50:00 derdon: plus, i like the } matching in C, where it displays in the status line which function I'm closing. 12:50:29 *derdon* doesn't code in C 12:50:31 derdon: I also like the kill ring that is well integrated into the editor 12:50:40 kill ring? 12:51:00 derdon: it is like multi buffer copy/cut. 12:51:20 okay 12:51:21 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:51:39 derdon: everytime you 'y'ank or 'd'elete a text in vim, the previous contents of the 'p'aste buffer are replaced. 12:52:59 I don't use anything that's directly related to buffer-foo 12:53:11 derdon: which really sucks, since I'm like "oh, lets move this line somewhere else: dd. Oh, what is this line doing here: delete it: dd. So, paste the previous line here: p. Argh, wrong line pasted!" 12:54:18 there is the yankring script for vim, though. Which lets you cycle what you pasted with Ctrl-n and Ctrl-p. 12:54:59 I have never felt like needing such things 12:55:12 oh, and emacs ships a plugin which automatically saves the position at which you opened a file. In vim, this is possible but involves a fancy hack in .vimrc which I can never remember. 12:55:33 derdon: have you never needed to paste more than one line at a time? 12:56:15 Leonidas: yes, but then I cut one block and paste this block anywhere else 12:56:24 *Leonidas* uses his editors like a chain saw to hack chunks of ice into proper shape :) 12:57:33 derdon: I'm an excessive user of d* and x and these always delete what I have copied before. So yeah, this is a personal thing, but is something that I did like in emacs. 12:58:57 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 13:01:17 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:02:07 derdon: here's the tl;dr version: http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/952/lisp-style-rules 13:03:33 Leonidas: thanks, you're a bookmarker-filler ;) 13:04:45 "Margin comments have one [semicolon]"  what are margin comments? 13:05:21 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:08 comments that are not on their own line 13:07:27 ah, I know them as "inline comments" 13:07:38 I thought they suck 13:07:49 Leonidas: you taught me so 13:08:23 All comments suck. 13:09:04 *Leonidas* still hates inline comments 13:09:17 and I refuse to write such comments in scheme too 13:09:53 *Leonidas* puts comments with ; in a separate line anyway 13:10:08 (Yet we still use comments) 13:10:14 derdon: if you give emacs ever a try for editing Scheme code, make sure to give paredit a try as well -- it allows you to edit at the s-expression (instead of the line/characters) level 13:10:19 derdon: so it is like PEP8: while some things are useful, there are parts where people disagree on. 13:10:47 Leonidas: I see 13:11:01 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/#color-box 13:13:32 Jafet: looks really cool 13:13:55 Leonidas: in does drscheme it does not look *that* good, does it? 13:14:04 derdon, until it runs out of colours 13:14:12 Leonidas: forget the first "does" ;) 13:14:50 Jafet: anytime the black->gray will turn to black->gray->white, right? 13:15:19 I suppose that might be a good indicator of when you should consider decreasing nesting 13:15:49 I once implemented aa-tree-delete with about 10 nested (let ..) 13:28:16 derdon: you mean the look? Yeah, on linux it is quite ugly. they have a forked wxXt. 13:28:44 Leonidas: I mean the colored boxes 13:31:01 Leonidas, derdon: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.png 13:31:20 Leonidas: foof supplied the answer. Consider (define-syntax if (syntax-rules () ((_ test consequent else) (call-if test (lambda () consequent) (lambda () else))))) 13:31:25 Leonidas: That *is* Linux, and even running through VNC. 13:31:33 (ie, crappier X.) 13:31:51 Jafet: No; `if' does not require semantics that can't be implemented by an ordinary procedure call and `lambda', the ultimate conditional form. 13:32:14 eli: okay, then I will use drscheme as far as I am too lazy to learn emacs 13:32:37 chandler, sure, if you define it as syntax 13:32:53 I had the impression foof was doing something else 13:33:11 derdon: Don't get me wrong, for what it is doing, Emacs is far more powerful, but for editing Scheme, DrScheme is doing a good job, and the learning curve is way smoother (and shallower). 13:34:13 eli: I understand you, I gave gave emacs about three chances. For vim one chance was enough to see that I can handle it 13:34:22 derdon: (a good job, and it offers some things that would be very difficult, and sometimes impossible to do in Emacs.) 13:35:08 Three chances are definitely not enough. Usually, you need a semester of being nearly forced to use it... 13:35:21 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:07 One thing is the keybindings 13:38:14 Utterly intuitive 13:39:13 Emacs is intuitive?? 13:39:22 ??? 13:39:33 OK rms, off the chanel! 13:40:00 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-38-118.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:40:09 I dont think rms uses chanel 13:40:18 *eli* stares at "C-x 5 2" and tries to transform it so it spells "window". 13:40:50 I suppose you can do warm-ups in screen. 13:41:47 eli: you mean File -> New Frame? 13:44:00 mario-goulart: (1) Even that doesn't help for newbies who have no clue what a "frame" is; (2) The Emacs philosophy is to avoid menus; (3) The "File" menu is a terrible place for it; (4) Jafet talked about intuitive keybindings. 13:44:47 Protip: I was kidding. 13:45:26 eli: #t 13:45:58 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:48:49 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:19 derdon: i actually like the colored boxes. 13:50:38 Leonidas: I do so too :) 13:52:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:51 chandler: but call-if is also some kind of conditional and that one has to be a special form. 13:54:07 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110] has quit [] 13:59:57 Leonidas: No. Consider a procedure `boolean->procedure', which when given #t returns (lambda (a b) (a)), and when given #f returns (lambda (a b) (b)) 14:00:41 This procedure does *not* need to involve a conditional itself. For instance, booleans could be record types with one field which contains the appropriate procedure. 14:02:34 `call-if' is then defined as (lambda (test conseq-thunk else-thunk) ((boolean->procedure test) conseq-thunk else-thunk)) 14:07:47 (define boolean->procedure (let ((v (vector (lambda (a b) (b)) (lambda (a b) (a))))) (lambda (x) (vector-ref v (quotient (- (char->integer (string-ref (call-with-output-string (lambda (p) (write x p))) 1)) (char->integer #\f)) (- (char->integer #\t) (char->integer #\f))))))) 14:09:00 jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:01 jay-mccarthy [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:38 langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has joined #scheme 14:10:05 chandler: ah, I'm beginning to understand. Thank you :) 14:10:19 actually, thank you both. 14:12:06 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:21 This is not an obscure insight, either. It's how conditionals are done in Smalltalk. Boolean objects respond to a message ifTrue:ifFalse: taking two blocks as arguments. 14:17:43 probably not, but still an insight for me how thinks can be done with lambdas all the way down. 14:18:41 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:20:21 I hope you have a better idea of what "Lambda The Ultimate" means now. :-) 14:21:34 are the papers worth reading or too obscure to get more of these insights? 14:21:36 Using lambdas only false is false and true is true. In Scheme, everything but false is true. 14:22:11 Hum... in Smalltalk not false is not true. 14:23:10 Leonidas: Those are worth reading. 14:23:53 (Actually I cheated, `write' is almost definitely implemented with `if'.) 14:24:27 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:24:51 masm: ok, I'll put reading them on my todo list :) 14:25:35 masm: If you have a version which works with #f and #t, you can trivially use (lambda (v) (not (eqv? v #f))) to turn a generalized boolean into an actual boolean. 14:25:52 (I don't think the term "generalized boolean" actually exists in Scheme - the terminology comes from Common Lisp - but it fits the concept.) 14:26:13 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:26:18 *foof* prefers (not (not x)) 14:26:35 Leonidas: as is the paper about Meta II by Schorre, and the LISP 1.5 programmer's manual. Even older. 14:26:51 foof: For clarity's sake, I spelled it out once. 14:27:17 Like 15 and 20 years older, I think. 14:28:06 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:27 masm: the problem is that it'll have to wait until I'm done with the 'The ... Schemer' series as well as GEB. 14:31:48 Wasting too much time with work and tv to get real enlightenment anytime soon. 14:32:40 I would read GEB last. 14:33:07 But before tv, at least. 14:33:23 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:59 You could always indulge in a little Subjunc-TV. 14:41:35 Nshag [i=user@193.248.204.16] has joined #scheme 14:42:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:57:02 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:41 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:03:20 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 15:04:37 tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:08:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:12:45 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 15:14:06 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:18 csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has joined #scheme 15:29:35 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 15:31:04 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:35:22 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@searspoint.nvidia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:37 csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:36 chandler: That was very diplomatic. 15:44:55 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:09 eli: Dereference "that"? 15:45:26 Your recent reply involving or whatever. 15:45:29 Oh. 15:46:03 I'd go with a much more Tarantino-ish reply. 15:46:30 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:02 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has joined #scheme 15:49:09 -!- tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 15:49:35 null 15:49:42 Ups. 15:50:31 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:50:59 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:34 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-249.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 15:54:16 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-249.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:24 samth_ [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:54:43 -!- samth_ [n=samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 15:59:20 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-249.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:02:02 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 16:02:15 Downs. 16:02:15 arcfide, memo from Riastradh: I have a totally untested idea in the form of code for a port of scm-rendezvous to Chez. Some time this week perhaps I'll mock it up in Scheme48 and test it. 16:02:48 Riastradh: Well, I intend to port it over pretty soon, actually, but I'm still playing a bit with the understand of Rendezvous at the moment. 16:03:40 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.114.8] has joined #scheme 16:04:27 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:09:47 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:17 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [] 16:11:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:00 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsled176.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:37 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-178-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:23:52 eli: And that was not very diplomatic. 16:24:14 (Which is not to say undeserved.) 16:28:53 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.22] has joined #scheme 16:31:01 I think I will refrain from snarky and sarcastic comments this time around. 16:33:57 chandler: I agree. That was just a little over my threshold, and I couldn't resist. 16:35:25 For what it's worth, I drafted almost the same reply (minus the "crack" comment), and decided against sending it. 16:35:52 I honestly don't think he knows or cares to know what is in the R6RS. 16:39:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 16:41:09 *arcfide* hopes that he has been slightly more sane in his ramblings in those threads. 16:43:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 16:44:15 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:44:50 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 16:50:53 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:56:32 chandler: I believe that -- but I honestly don't care about it. There's a limit to how offensive they can behave *in* that mailing list. 17:03:13 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:22:05 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-178-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:32:16 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:40:13 Traveler [n=traveler@64.180.60.237] has joined #scheme 17:40:23 -!- Traveler [n=traveler@64.180.60.237] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41:01 Traveler [n=traveler@64.180.60.237] has joined #scheme 17:41:29 -!- Traveler is now known as Guest70374 17:42:53 New to scheme. How do I build a list that includes a function, without evaluating the function? 17:44:28 Can you explain *why* you'd want to do this? 17:44:40 Or, I'm not sure what you mean by "evaluating the function". 17:45:33 For a hashtable, I need pairs of keys and values. So I want to map '+, '-, '* and '/ to the appropriate function. 17:46:21 incubot: ((car (list + -)) 2 2) 17:46:22 4 17:46:53 Guest70374, you're sure you want a hash table there, and not just an associative data structure that maps keys to values? 17:47:43 Thanks. Far simpler than I thought it would be. 17:48:29 gnomon: I'm using make-immutable-hash. What would you suggest? 17:49:52 If it's just four entries and they're known at compile time, I'd suggest skipping the data structure and writing a procedure involving `case'. 17:50:03 If it's just four entries, and the above doesn't work, I'd suggest an association list. 17:50:07 r5rs assoc 17:50:08 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_438 17:50:11 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5tz3qu 17:50:28 I'd second the use of the association list. 17:50:55 rudybot: init r5rs 17:50:55 chandler: your r5rs sandbox is ready 17:50:57 thanks. I'll take a look. 17:51:30 rudybot: eval (define-syntax symbol->named-procedure (syntax-rules () ((_ sym ...) (lambda (e) (case e (sym sym) ...))))) 17:51:54 rudybot: eval (((symbol->named-procedure + - * /) '/) 1 2) 17:51:55 chandler: error: eval:1:27: case: bad syntax (not a datum sequence) at: + in: (case e (+ +) (- -) (* *) (/ /)) 17:52:06 Gack. 17:52:37 rudybot: eval (define-syntax symbol->named-procedure (syntax-rules () ((_ sym ...) (lambda (e) (case e ((sym) sym) ...))))) 17:52:40 rudybot: eval (((symbol->named-procedure + - * /) '/) 1 2) 17:52:41 chandler: ; Value: 1/2 17:54:11 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:55:42 Any recommended reading to get my head around macros? 17:56:38 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:58:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lsiieoidznritjcw] has joined #scheme 17:58:46 -!- Guest70374 [n=traveler@64.180.60.237] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 18:00:30 rudybot: eval (let ((lookup-mathop (lambda (op) (cadr (assoc op `((+ ,+) (- ,-) (* ,*) (/ ,/))))))) (map (lambda (op) ((lookup-mathop op) 10 2)) '(+ - * /))) 18:00:31 gnomon: your sandbox is ready 18:00:31 gnomon: ; Value: (12 8 20 5) 18:01:23 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:02:58 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D743.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:03 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106000f66bc42b9.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:51 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-249.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:03:54 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 18:13:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:35 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 18:21:21 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.130.62] has joined #scheme 18:26:33 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:52 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:26:58 CFP: Special issue of JUCS "Lisp: Research and Experience" 18:27:00 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/361e6e414e0cbd51 18:27:07 Scheme papers are welcomed 18:28:30 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:32:44 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:38 -!- 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[Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:57:30 MrBlueSky [n=MrBlueSk@c-24-129-82-57.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:33 -!- MrBlueSky [n=MrBlueSk@c-24-129-82-57.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:58:51 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:59:27 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 21:02:48 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 21:10:02 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:13:45 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:17:05 hmm, jcowan's post `Proposed features for small Scheme, part 3: Unicode' on r6rs-discuss seems to have been cut short in the archive ( http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-September/004857.html ) 21:17:09 could somebody with a full copy put it on lisppaste, please? 21:18:02 Ha! 21:18:06 That is amusing. 21:18:17 ">From these principles I draw the following (wearisomely detailed) 21:18:21 " 21:18:27 >From UNIX with love ;) 21:19:15 chandler (proxying for jcowan) pasted "[r6rs-discuss] Proposed features for small Scheme, part 3: Unicode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86778 21:19:45 thanks 21:20:14 sjamaan pasted "John's post" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86779 21:20:16 oops 21:20:26 ah well 21:21:12 :D 21:21:39 Yeah, this bug won't die. 21:21:56 I knew you'd appreciate this one, ASau ;) 21:22:20 To this time only one person tried hard to handle it. 21:22:26 Dan Bernstein. 21:23:29 The world sticks to Send... Postfix is its name nowadays. 21:24:10 Eh? Postfix is not Sendmail, thank Cthulhu. 21:25:06 So what? 21:25:11 The format is the same. 21:34:19 ejs [n=eugen@39-205-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:45 incubot: Underwater laser pops in navy ops 21:35:49 we're totally sure that it's mostly false that that humans can survive for more than 10 minutes underwater. 21:36:37 rcy [n=rcy@S01060013464aedc3.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:27 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 21:38:25 incubot, we can't be sure. More experimentation is required. For the greatness of experimental science! 21:38:28 Tune in tomorrow for another episode of: "Brush with Greatness". Brought to you by Oral-B 21:41:58 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:43:42 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:55 Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:53:10 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [] 21:54:26 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@213.243.181.131] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:54 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060013464aedc3.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:47 -!- pantsd_pcf [n=pantsd_p@pigscanfly.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:07 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 22:15:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@39-205-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:17:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:19 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:25:39 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:36:01 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-151-203-194-120.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:47 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:41 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:32 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176204187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:48 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176195001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:59:54 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-211-23.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:07 masm [n=masm@bl10-211-23.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 23:02:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:29 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:09:49 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 23:15:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:14 _Pb [n=_Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 23:17:57 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 23:19:20 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-38-118.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:25 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176198186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:29:28 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:43 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 23:35:29 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:38:03 -!- lisptast` [n=user@adsl-147-25-236.bgk.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:49 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176195001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:34 automejja [n=edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 23:42:25 rotty pasted "SRFI-19 time-difference bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86784 23:42:36 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:45:29 -!- automejja [n=edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:07 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 23:46:53 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-211-23.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:49:51 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176198186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:10 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:52:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme