00:05:09 sleen [n=sleen@96-28-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #scheme 00:16:21 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 00:21:08 jao: Hm. I just used C-c C-l to load a file (using PLT), and I can't see where the output from loading that file went. There is a form that calls `display' at the top level of this file. 00:22:27 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 00:24:08 chandler: there should be a buffer called *Geiser Dbg* with the output... modulo a bug (i tweaked evaluation recently) 00:24:30 chandler: i assume you're using the 'devel' branch? 00:24:37 No, should I be? 00:25:37 chandler: probably... specially if you're developing a backend and/or reporting bugs (and many thanks in either case!) 00:25:53 OK. How do I, er, 'git' that? 00:26:16 I assume, thanks to the nature of git, that I already have it on my disk and just need to issue a magic incantation to switch branches. 00:26:32 git checkout -b devel origin/devel 00:26:53 should create a local 'devel' branch tracking my devel 00:26:56 I should do this in the directory that was created when I ran "git clone mumble"? 00:27:05 yes 00:27:18 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:27 or you can clone specifying the branch 00:28:08 (Why are branches a special-case thing in VCSes again? Did everyone decide that the svn approach did not work for some reason?) 00:29:42 -!- dysinger` [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:30:18 "load-with-code-conversion: Invalid modifier in string" 00:30:21 -!- sleen [n=sleen@96-28-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:30:27 That's what I get when trying to run M-x geiser now. 00:30:40 chandler: emacs version? 00:30:49 22.1.1 00:31:05 hmm, i only test with 23 00:31:22 It's what comes preinstalled on OS X 10.5 00:32:29 chandler: You don't like branches? Do VCSes treat them as special cases? 00:32:30 i see. well, i would have to compile that version myself, because debian must have 22.4 or something 00:32:49 I'll see if I can determine why it's breaking. 00:33:50 ok 00:34:00 arcfide: git, like CVS, seems to treat branches as a special concept. SVN does not; a branch is just a copy of the tree. 00:35:27 chandler: Hrm, dunno about that, I never really thought of branches as anything special in any VCS, but maybe I don't delve too deeply. 00:35:52 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:36:30 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:58 arcfide: What I mean by that is that there is no "svn branch" command. "svn copy" does both branching and tagging, and there isn't anything about it that's recognized by the VCS. There's no command to list all branches, and no single namespace that branches must fit into. 00:37:39 git seems to have ignored this and chosen the CVS model, but I don't understand why. 00:38:55 jao: The problem is at line 129 of geiser-syntax.el: (defconst geiser-syntax--delim-regexp "\\(?:[\s-\s<\s>$\n]+\\)") 00:39:11 That looks like line noise to me, so I'm not sure what it's complaining about. 00:41:14 sleen [n=sleen@96-28-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #scheme 00:42:13 jao: Is the "\s" intended to be interpreted by Emacs, or to denote a space in the regexp? 00:43:13 -!- sleen [n=sleen@96-28-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #scheme 00:44:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 00:45:30 chandler: Hrm, Well, I know that Monotone just has a branch tag for everything. Making a new branch just means that you commit some changes with a new branch name. That sounds a little different than SVN, but not much like CVS. 00:46:35 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:01 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 00:47:25 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:49:33 chandler: \s- matches whitespace syntax 00:49:37 and so on 00:49:53 hmm. could you try doubling the backslashes? 00:50:16 (only on the \s's) 00:53:14 *arcfide* sighs. 00:53:22 So much stuff to fiddle with. 00:53:51 I sure hope that my brain and my coding style suits larger code bases. My code is getting to be more than I can store inside my head at one time. 00:55:45 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 00:56:38 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:57:51 chandler: well, you can still just copy repos to branch, but the vcs gives you nice tools to do complex things with branching 00:58:01 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-49-153.adsl.snet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:15 like mercurial queues can work with just regular patches, but provides you with nice tools to manipulate them 00:58:31 chandler: i think that's the cause, yes. i've committed a patchlet hopefully fixing it. 00:59:19 jao: Oh, sorry, I wandered away. Yes, I doubled the backslashes in my own copy, and it works. 00:59:33 chandler: excellent. 01:00:04 chandler: what scheme are you interested in?, if you don't mind my asking 01:01:12 jao: Gauche. 01:01:37 ah, nice. 01:01:58 Anyone here check out the gambit C game programmed by yome? 01:01:58 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 01:02:43 jao: In a simple file containing only a PLT module declaration and a call to `display', using C-c C-l shows the output in the *Geiser dbg* buffer on the first time I load it but not subsequent loads. 01:03:25 chandler: are you modifying it in between reloads? 01:03:34 No. 01:04:10 chandler: i think that's expected behaviour in PLT's module system. 01:04:18 Oh. 01:04:39 or at least in its reload mechanism using enter! 01:05:25 I rarely use PLT outside of DrScheme, so I don't deal with semantics other than "restart the world" all that often. 01:10:07 chandler: btw, besides the scheme-side implementation, you'll need to provide a geiser-gauche.el with a handful of definitions (see geiser-plt.el and/or geiser-guile.el). 01:10:28 Yes, I saw that as well. 01:10:42 (given the scheme implementation, those should be very easy to implement, though) 01:10:45 ah, ok 01:12:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:13:33 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:14:37 chandler: bedtime for me. feel free to drop me an email or leave a message here any time. 01:14:47 Sure. I'll let you know if I run into any issues I can't figure out. 01:15:13 excellent. thanks and good night! 01:16:13 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 01:16:22 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:28 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:27:18 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:29:01 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 01:29:08 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:52 gmh33 [n=gmh33@c-76-124-86-20.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:06 hey guys, I've got a question about streams ;) 01:34:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:35:35 I'm trying to recursively define a stream, and the first one is correct 01:36:12 but, (stream-cdr a) resturns (('b . #promise) . #promise) 01:36:21 instead of ('b . #promise) 01:36:55 :/ 01:37:11 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:18 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:45:19 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:23 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:45 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 01:59:06 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:03:50 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 02:04:04 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:06:30 -!- gmh33 [n=gmh33@c-76-124-86-20.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bvfxwwmifnarztga] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:12:37 apotheon [n=ren@c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:18:45 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.17.96] has joined #scheme 02:18:52 hi, i'm using PLT Scheme 02:19:23 is there any way to filter the symbols that are mapped to procedures when using (namespace-mapped-symbols) ? 02:36:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:41:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:42:49 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-127.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:27 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:47:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:18 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:48:21 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:53:13 rudybot: doc namespace-variable-value 02:53:14 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176211108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:18 eli: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/Namespaces.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._namespace-variable-value)) 02:53:21 segoe: There. 02:53:46 thanks eli 02:57:59 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:00:58 here's the problem... namespace-variable-value fails when applied to syntax 03:05:03 segoe: See the docs, you'll need to protect against this (using the optional argument, IIRC). 03:07:31 this is what i tried: 03:07:36 > (map 03:07:37 (lambda (x) (namespace-variable-value x #f #f (current-namespace))) 03:07:37 (namespace-mapped-symbols)) 03:07:37 namespace-variable-value: procedure? is not defined 03:08:07 i'll tinker with it a bit more, hopefully i'll get it right :) 03:09:21 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:09:46 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176200059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:06 later 03:12:10 thanks for the help :) 03:12:30 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.17.96] has quit [] 03:21:30 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:31:32 TimMc: Did you actually try "from __future__ import braces"? 03:32:27 from __fantasyland__ import scheme_syntax_and_semantics 03:35:21 kyle_ [n=kyle@S010600195bd5aaab.ek.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:19 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:39:37 rudybot: uptime 03:39:38 *offby1: I've been up for one week, two days; this tcp/ip connection has been up for one day, eighteen hours 03:39:41 just checking 03:48:50 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 03:53:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:54:52 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-106-16-199.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:11 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:00:44 I'm wondering about the benefits and implications of splitting a file, then encrypting the pieces, compared with encrypting a file, then splitting that into pieces. 04:01:35 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:18 The former would let you reconstruct the middle part of the file, but puts a troubling amount of complexity on the lowest level of data format. 04:03:00 -!- apotheon [n=ren@c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:03:00 Plus where do you specify that a piece was encrypted, and with what key? 04:04:22 I was thinking maybe an unencrypted piece specifying that, then blankly encrypted pieces, but... 04:05:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:07:52 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:57 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 04:13:58 Currently the first byte of every piece says whether it's encrypted, and also encrypted keys are embedded therein. 04:17:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:31 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:25:45 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:09 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:30:48 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:39:38 synx: have you read Schneier's book about crypto? It _might_ address this issue. 04:39:53 *offby1* cannot recall the title at the moment but it'd be easy to find 04:40:17 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:42 haole [n=ivan@189.35.188.83] has joined #scheme 04:43:24 http://www.schneier.com/book-applied.html ? 04:43:36 jonphilpott [n=user@97.90.8.213] has joined #scheme 04:44:01 sounds right. 04:44:11 yep, dat be it. 04:44:23 good pst evening 04:44:34 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:44:47 ha! 04:44:51 Meh, my library doesn't have it. Have to pass I'm afraid. 04:44:52 I admire your time-zone-awareness. 04:44:57 It does have two books by Schneier though. 04:45:04 ha! to you too 04:45:04 synx: inter-library loan, dude!! 04:45:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-204.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:10 offby1 i have a plt question for you 04:45:13 *offby1* glances around nervously. 04:45:27 *rudybot* glances around nervously too 04:45:27 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-106-16-199.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:44 im writing an app using plt web server 04:45:55 uh oh! I don't think I've ever done that ... 04:45:57 and theres a value that i want to be written by one thread, read by the rest 04:46:06 ok 04:46:14 whats the prefered way of protecting it while its being updated? 04:46:25 my first instinct: use a channel. 04:46:27 I think the catalog covers all the branches in this library... 04:46:43 One thread writes to the channel; the others read from it (and block until the thing is available). 04:46:51 Although that might only work with one reader :-| 04:46:56 indeed 04:46:57 assuming you have channels 04:47:05 synx: well, he did say "PLT scheme". 04:47:17 oops didn't see 04:47:23 yeah, use channels :| 04:47:25 if channels won't work, then I guess I'd wince and use some sort of semaphore-like thing. 04:47:44 now, if the value is simple, you don't need any of this. 04:48:15 its a list of max 1000 values 04:48:25 like, if it's a boolean, or a symbol, or something, the writer thread can just change it and the readers will get a coherent value no matter when they run 04:48:28 oh 04:48:44 it's _possible_ that you can change the list with set! atomically. 04:48:47 Not really sure 04:48:54 yea, thats what i was wondering 04:49:02 another idea, overkill though it may be: 04:49:27 have a thread that "serves" the value: one thread at a time can update the value, and any number of threads can read from it. 04:49:36 not even sure what I mean by that. 04:49:40 hah 04:49:49 I honestly think I did that at one point. 04:49:52 that's it. you're fired (from a cannon.) 04:49:59 So what is this a list of? 04:50:02 threads are fairly cheap in PLT 04:50:16 I've been programming erlang for long enough now that I tend to think in those terms 04:50:21 >:) 04:50:48 seriously, I think it might be reasonable. 04:50:52 synx: some user submitted content (think tweets.) 04:51:05 i want a fixed number of them to show on one page randomly 04:51:11 have a module that provides a "setter" procedure, that writes to a channel, and a "getter" procedure that reads from the same channel. 04:51:12 but i dont want each request to load them from the db 04:51:16 guess you don't need a separate thread. 04:51:27 hm... 04:51:44 la la la 04:51:47 so i periodically want to update an in-meomry cache of values that i want to be displayed 04:51:57 hey offby1 04:52:03 The problem with databases is, if you don't have each ___ load from the db, you immediately lose ACID right there. 04:52:04 jonphilpott: OK, time to divulge the _real_ answer: ask eli :) 04:52:20 duncanm: like, la la la. 04:52:34 dude. 04:52:52 is there a debug tool to help me find a lost parenthesis? :D 04:52:52 hey hey 04:52:53 I kind of ran into that for my SQL based text dungeon. Every action just involved a select and an update, and no way to defer or cache that without risking losing stuff. 04:53:00 haole: paredit mode in emacs 04:53:10 synx: the content is fairly static. 04:53:22 haole: yeah, what duncanm said. 04:53:34 haole: if you're a PLT user, I assume DrScheme would help too 04:54:18 duncanm: thanks, gonna try... i'm an emacs user 04:54:22 drscheme hilights them, iirc 04:54:43 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:55:38 jonphilpott: another crazy idea. A module whose writer procedure simply writes the value to a channel; the reader consults a module-level variable; and the module creates a separate thread that reads the channel, locks the variable, updates the variable, unlocks it. 04:56:16 offby1: no more crack for you 04:56:35 :-( 04:56:37 but I like crack. 04:56:37 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:57 *offby1* realizes he has two kidneys, only needs one, and that 1 kidney == 450 vials 04:57:24 if you only have one kidney 04:57:31 and multiple accessors 04:57:39 how will you protect the kidney from writes?1 04:57:59 well, it's inside my abdoment. 04:58:03 abdomen. 04:58:10 writes occur only on my outside. 04:58:12 QED. 04:58:27 bugger. 05:04:56 *synx* writes on offby1's kidney 05:05:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:05:55 no no, that's not how it's done. You write on my belly, and the Literature Committee then meets to decide if it's worthy of being promoted to "organ" status. 05:06:18 Although to be honest the committee is pretty much inundated with joke proposals from my cat 05:07:36 *jonphilpott* fires offby1 from a cannon 05:07:41 wheee 05:07:43 is it possible to get unmatched parenthesis errors after you loaded some code? i'm getting this error when i try to call a function that has already been defined! 05:07:47 everyone looks like ants from up here 05:08:04 haole: what's the text of the error? 05:08:11 UNKNOWN::795: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 05:08:33 haole: paste yer code! 05:08:37 not into the channel 05:08:46 paste.lisp.org/new/scheme is a fine place 05:09:00 oh, that must be coming from my (read i) call :D 05:09:02 gonna paste it 05:09:14 sure _sounds_ like "read". What with 'read' being in the error text and all. 05:09:35 haole pasted "error on read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85710 05:10:14 haole: looks fine to me 05:10:32 it's what you're reading from the socket that's the problem. 05:10:47 probably wanna wrap that "read" with an exception handler 05:10:47 offby1: yeah... i'm dealing with a server that uses s-expressions as a protocol 05:10:55 good for it! 05:11:05 hopefully they're precisely the same syntax as your "read" function :_\ 05:11:08 i figured out that it would be easier to work if i transformed it into a lisp object 05:11:15 Interesting use of custodians there. 05:11:31 i wrote this based on a code found in plt :D 05:11:44 i'm very noob, but i'm studying a lot through plt's site and sicp 05:12:09 synx: I never use custodians (that I can recall) but haole's code is pretty much how I'd imagined they'd be used 05:12:17 oh haole 05:12:33 oh hai 05:12:35 haole: you're expecting the full s-exp to fit in one UDP packet 05:12:47 synx: yes 05:12:53 That's why you're missing close parentheses. 05:12:58 oh, must be this! gonna check my buffers size 05:12:58 It's coming in two packets. 05:13:34 hm 05:13:35 It really only makes sense to read from a stream, like a TCP stream. UDP is for other stuff. 05:13:52 i wonder if drschemes webserver creates a new thread per connection or has a pool 05:14:15 jonphilpott: I'm pretty sure _you_ get to choose that. 05:14:21 Now, what the default is, I dunno. 05:14:35 that was it! thanks :D 05:14:42 small buffer size 05:15:09 haole: unless you know that your messages will never be longer than some (reasonably-small) limit, TCP seems like a better choice than UDP 05:15:25 (and with UDP, does the sender even know if the message was received?) 05:15:34 i'm working on writing an inteligent agent for the robocup simulation competition... the frameworks used for this are usually a lot confusing, so i'm giving lisp a shot and the progress is impressive by me being a noob 05:15:47 uh, whatever; good 05:15:53 .oO("robocup"?) 05:15:58 yeah, I know; I can google it 05:16:03 robocup.org 05:16:12 it's a challenge along scientists 05:16:26 to beat the human world soccer cup champion of 2050 with an humanoid team of robots 05:16:28 basically this :) 05:16:43 among* 05:16:44 it has one of those '90s style 'enter site' pages. How delightfully anachronistic. 05:16:44 plong. 05:16:50 plonk. 05:17:33 it's very challenging to write stuff to this simulator... it is very complex... to even know about its position, the agent has to some triangulation 05:17:51 to do some* 05:18:49 "if it don't kill ya, it'll only make ya stronger" 05:19:02 of course! :D 05:19:38 there are some frameworks around to keep you working only in AI's domain, but they are very crippled... specially the C++ ones 05:19:59 the java ones are just slow 05:30:50 It might indeed be good to use a UDP broadcast protocol in that case haole, but I would set it up to be heuristic, transmitting like neurons with only a likely chance of reception, so you won't need any ACK packets. 05:30:50 A robotic football team is extremely unrealistic I'd say, even by 2050. Maybe 2200... 05:31:47 synx: if you go to youtube looking for robocup videos, you might get impressed with some stuff :) 05:32:15 the state of art of the collaborative behavior is really amazing... it's the best weapon that robots have so far 05:32:33 however, simple things like standing and running are still a very very big challenge 05:35:10 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.128.159] has joined #scheme 05:35:56 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.237] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:37:03 Might not be fair to let robots employ radio communication either. At the very least the human players would have to be able to train with headset walkie talkies. 05:41:17 tough call 05:41:28 humans can use gestures and speech, which are beyond poor bots 05:42:17 is there a good material around to teach me how to structure better my software using a functional language? i'm having some difficulties migrating from the OO world... 05:42:34 specially with "encapsulation" in some way 05:42:43 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:45 haole: heh 05:43:19 note that scheme really isn't a functional language 05:43:27 although it's not hard to write in functional style in scheme 05:43:33 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:30 haole: I assume there's lots of good stuff out there, but I can't think of any specifically. You can always ask specific (simple!) questions here, and we'll heckle you^W^Wgently explain functional style 05:47:30 hardest thing about Haskell for me is not that it's functional but it's lazy. I still can't quite comprehend lazy scheme. 05:48:28 offby1: it's just that i'm starting to write a software that i know it is going to become huge, so i'm trying to make the right decisions... i've separated it in some modules, and this modules holds "variables" (or bindings, i never know when they have values or not) with the data that is relevant to me and some methods to do stuff with this data... a little of this information is given to the outside context through provide... but i'm hoping to learn how to 05:48:28 do more interesting things :) 05:48:48 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:52:03 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.71.250] has joined #scheme 05:52:22 easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:06 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.128.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:08 you'll learn by making mistakes. 06:00:11 how else does anyone learn? 06:03:19 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:21 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 06:03:28 By reading about other people's mistakes. 06:07:33 that helps some, I guess; but I find making my own mistakes nails it down much more firmly 06:09:15 HG` [n=HG@89.166.247.222] has joined #scheme 06:12:06 Yes, but if you learn from reading you don't have to make the mistakes. 06:12:29 I didn't learn how to eat an artichoke through trial and error. 06:12:49 But if I had, oh man would I never eat an artichoke the wrong way again, I tell you. 06:17:23 -!- haole [n=ivan@189.35.188.83] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:18:12 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:21:43 offby1: temporary solution, read and write need to go thru a mutex. 06:21:53 uttumuttu [n=uttelis@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined #scheme 06:23:58 -!- Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:00 plt only has semaphores, but close enough. 06:25:58 (make-semaphore 1) :) 06:29:38 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 06:30:32 although i might be able to get away with just protecting the write and using a box to store the value 06:31:24 the plt-source does 'SCHEME_BOX_VAL(b) = v;' which i imagine should be 'fairly' atomic. 06:31:59 plt threads are not system threads, so it's only preemptive within the scheme code really... 06:32:14 nah I dunno what I'm talking about 06:32:53 meh what the hell 06:33:21 the worst result would probably one user getting a slightly wonky home pager 06:35:54 Scheme supports multiple threads of evaluation. Threads run concurrently, in the sense that one thread can preempt another without its cooperation, but threads currently all run on the same processor (i.e., the same underlying OS process and thread). 06:36:18 well that answers that, then :) 06:36:36 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-19-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:36 Sort of. It doesn't answer whether the functions involving SCHEME_BOX_VAL allow any preemption or not. 06:38:42 would it contex switch while evaluating a primitive though? 06:39:07 I dunno, I just try not to think about it. 06:39:13 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has joined #scheme 06:39:19 (the t key on my keyboard is misbehaving.) 06:39:29 it hasnt been the same since i spilled soda on it 06:40:29 My alt key is the same way. Damned sugar gums up anything irrevocably. 06:40:35 jonphilpott: ratpoison should lubricate it back up 06:40:38 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:40:46 Probably could use an alcohol spray to clean it out. 06:40:48 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 06:40:54 ratpoison the WM, that is; C-t happens to be the hotkey 06:41:01 klutometis: ;) 06:41:17 i use ratpoison but have windows key for hotkey 06:41:30 it works well on my 800x480 eeepc 06:41:37 oh? that's clever, actually 06:42:14 *klutometis* now knows what to do with this confounded apple key 06:42:50 for the longest time GTK was unable to utilize the "Super" key. Now that it is I haven't a clue what to do with it ._. 06:43:04 That's the Microsoft/Apple key. 06:43:53 synx: you can map it with xmodmap to one of the insane f-keys like f14, etc. 06:44:44 yeah... but I don't use it anyway 06:45:56 The f25 key???? 06:47:05 -!- jonphilpott [n=user@97.90.8.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:48:27 incubot: Get ready. I'm going to hit the f25 key. 06:48:31 as for serialization test cases, Termite is getting pretty Gambit-specific now, but I might be able to fairly easily port an old version to Chicken. Mail me once you'd be ready for a test. 06:49:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 06:51:48 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 07:02:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 07:06:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:47 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.71.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:12 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 07:21:56 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 07:29:50 ASau` [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:31:15 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 07:31:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:31:21 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [sendak.freenode.net 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[n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:40 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 07:36:48 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:44 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 07:42:18 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.134.99] has joined #scheme 07:47:28 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:47:34 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:50:13 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:52:32 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:51 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:54:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:03 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:56:32 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-19-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:27:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:32:32 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:33:07 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 08:35:19 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:29 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.212] has joined #scheme 08:35:32 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:00:48 masm [n=masm@bl7-205-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:04:07 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 09:07:00 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.134.99] has quit [] 09:09:44 nicoca [n=nicoca@mon76-1-88-168-192-93.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:13:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 09:14:17 BW^- [n=Miranda@92.81.210.112] has joined #scheme 09:15:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:18:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:35:50 I can't remember Does gambit's interpreter have variables like Common Lisp's *, ** and ***? 09:36:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-192-10.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:28 Yeah! 09:41:47 #, ## and ### 09:42:34 whats that for? 09:43:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:14 it refers to "last result", "penultimate result", and "antepenultimate result" 09:44:30 ahh, i was going to guess that :) 09:44:33 (* 2 3) => 6 09:44:41 (+ # 4) => 10 09:45:03 ok, so last repl result, not the last 3 continuation results 09:45:14 *Very* useful in the REPL, when you use it as a calculator. 09:45:23 yer, last REPL results. 09:45:33 easy to implement :) 09:45:48 I guess some other implementations have just one level, referred to as "it" 09:46:03 i have no such thing in my REPL :) 09:46:15 rudybot: eval (+ 1 1) 09:46:16 Axioplase: your sandbox is ready 09:46:16 Axioplase: ; Value: 2 09:46:20 rudybot: eval (* it 2) 09:46:20 Axioplase: error: reference to undefined identifier: it 09:46:26 ah, too bad ^^ 09:48:54 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:50:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:02:18 eli: http://netbsd.pastebin.com/m64a05e89 10:02:57 eli: proposed actions? 10:07:00 ASau: What's that? 10:07:23 That's PLT 4.2.1 10:07:57 Do you have easy way to build it with symbol tables? 10:08:03 Is that a bug, or what? What are you trying to do? 10:08:14 It is bug. 10:08:25 I think so. 10:08:39 Did you `handle SIGSEGV nostop noprint'? 10:10:46 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@92.81.210.112] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 10:11:16 http://netbsd.pastebin.com/m387ca60f 10:12:20 (That paste thing is very annoying.) 10:12:43 ? 10:13:00 the font is tiny, the colors make it unreadable. 10:13:24 And the confusing thing about having it appear twice for some obscure reason. 10:13:28 sreeram [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has joined #scheme 10:13:41 lisppaste? 10:13:46 Anyway, if you have your own build, then the debugging symbols should be there. 10:13:54 lisppaste: url 10:13:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 10:14:22 If that output is from unstripped binaries then send a bug report as is. 10:14:57 They may be stripped. I'll check. 10:15:18 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 10:30:16 Sveklo1 [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 10:35:30 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 10:37:35 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:41:00 masm1 [n=masm@bl5-105-36.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:41:23 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:33 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 10:41:35 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:11 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:58:10 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:31:14 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:21 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 11:36:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 11:48:03 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:52:12 synx, in your wondering about `the benefits and implications of splitting a file, then encrypting the pieces, compared with encrypting a file, then splitting that into pieces', I hope that you are not planning to do that like the ECB mode of block ciphers, for very obvious reasons. But if you don't use ECB, you will probably expand your data by adding IVs to every chunk. If you want to be able to decrypt middle parts of a ciphe 11:55:12 of a ciphe ,-- got cut off 11:56:05 If you want to be able to decrypt middle parts of a ciphertext, you can use the CTR mode of your block cipher, which is not catastrophically bad like the ECB mode. 11:57:40 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:01 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:02:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:26 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 12:04:06 dzhus [n=sphinx@95.24.106.216] has joined #scheme 12:09:23 Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 12:09:28 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:19:49 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:19:49 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] 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has joined #scheme 12:29:50 rcassidy [n=rcassidy@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:31:26 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:33:11 Guest91968 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:34:26 -!- Guest91968 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:48 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:36:28 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:29 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:40:19 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:45:31 -!- Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:49:41 Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-216-154.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 12:50:34 hi 12:57:17 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 12:58:03 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:17 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:07:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:09:04 Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-196-138-68.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 13:09:07 hai!! 13:09:22 are there any roguelike games programmed in scheme? 13:12:34 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:15:45 bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has joined #scheme 13:21:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:39 Sonja: I'm not aware of any, but it seems like a good idea 13:23:03 what tutorial would you recommend for somebody who hasn't programmed since qbasic as a kid? :) 13:23:15 i was told that scheme is like the toki pona of programming langugaes, so it's worth looking at 13:23:21 Sonja: http://www.htdp.org/ 13:23:27 thanks chandler 13:23:46 And I recommend using PLT Scheme with that: http://www.plt-scheme.org/ 13:24:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:25:01 Sonja: Also, if you prefer dead tree books, I can recommend "The Little Schemer". It is very basic but very good 13:26:19 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:27:21 is there a way to see some code side by side comparing python with plt sccheme 13:27:31 see how they do things differently or same 13:27:56 Not PLT, but here's one for Chicken: http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken-for-python-programmers 13:28:08 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:13 At the end you'll find two more links 13:28:44 turn left, third door on the left, knock twice, ask for dave 13:29:15 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:34:00 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:50:52 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:58:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:58:35 thanks guys 13:58:48 is the library for plt scheme quite good? 14:04:09 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.212] has quit ["off"] 14:06:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:09:17 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:41 i met a guy called Gary Baumgartner a few weeks ago 14:10:53 he spoke obsessively for hours about scheme so it got me curious! 14:12:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:09 .oO("toki pona"?) 14:18:28 it's a minimalist human language 14:19:20 spoken by at least six people, I gather 14:19:33 how many people code in plt scheme professionally? 14:19:48 at least six people 14:19:58 it's hard to know 14:23:00 anyway you're unlikely to use it at work, unless you're the kind of whiz that companies are falling over themselves to hire, in which case you might be able to talk them into letting you use it 14:23:58 interesting discussion of roughly this issue: http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html 14:26:10 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:26:27 Not many companies necessarily use Scheme, but many use this dialect of LISP or that. Once you know one picking up another isn't bad. 14:27:27 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:27:29 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 14:28:00 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:07 edwardk_ [i=c72e9a60@gateway/web/freenode/x-tptacppimoxtjmdi] has joined #scheme 14:31:38 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:32:03 -!- Sveklo1 [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:21 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:48:17 -!- Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-196-138-68.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #scheme 14:53:06 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:19:32 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:19:33 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:21:06 etoxam_ [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 15:21:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:23:27 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:46 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 15:26:31 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has quit ["leaving"] 15:26:53 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:27:02 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:28:04 -!- etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:45 Sveklo [n=sveklo@gw0.stadinetti.fi] has joined #scheme 15:32:06 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #scheme 15:34:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Success] 15:34:45 MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.129.110] has joined #scheme 15:43:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:47 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 15:45:06 Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 15:53:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:35 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 15:55:49 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 15:57:27 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:00:41 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:10:23 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:19:49 -!- HG` [n=HG@89.166.247.222] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:44 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:25:46 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:24 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 16:42:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:46:32 HG` [n=HG@xdslhj222.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:50:01 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:09 -!- Sveklo [n=sveklo@gw0.stadinetti.fi] has quit [] 16:53:15 hmmm, why no named with-syntax ? that would be handy now 16:54:23 -!- WuJiang [n=wujiang@jumpbug.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:28 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:31 I don't understand what you mean by "named with-syntax" 16:55:19 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:55:38 like a named let, but for with-syntax 16:57:14 I still don't understand. `with-syntax' creates syntactic bindings, so I'm not sure how the concept translates here. 16:57:18 How would you use it? 16:57:47 for looping through syntax 16:59:16 I don't get it. In a named let, I tend to do (let loop (...) ... (loop ...)). But the binding established by `with-syntax' is a syntactic binding; I can't call it in the same fashion. 16:59:23 Can you supply a concrete example? 16:59:26 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:59:41 i'll do one just now 17:01:02 (LET LOOP (...) ...) is just like (LET (...) ...), except that the implied procedure is named. Treating (WITH-SYNTAX ((A P) (B Q)) ...) as ((LAMBDA (x y) (SYNTAX-CASE () ((A B) ...))) P Q), one can also imagine naming the procedure thereby implied. 17:03:48 -!- Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-216-154.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #scheme 17:04:08 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176212122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:05:09 Riastradh: Ah. I'm still at a loss to understand when I would want to do that, though. 17:06:14 I'll have to wait for leppie to explain that one. 17:06:21 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:07:02 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.129.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:05 In any event, it's easy enough to write, if you need it. 17:14:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jozbkaltvgyeikvp] has joined #scheme 17:15:09 -!- uttumuttu [n=uttelis@tuomi.oulu.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 17:15:40 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:15 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:24:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:27:53 tjafk [n=timj@e176216057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:28:54 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:29:26 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:33:54 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176211108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:56:06 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 17:56:34 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176212122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:50 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:53 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:55 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 18:04:21 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- nicoca [n=nicoca@mon76-1-88-168-192-93.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:21 -!- certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:04:46 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 18:04:46 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 18:05:10 nicoca [n=nicoca@88.168.192.93] has joined #scheme 18:05:31 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- kyle_ [n=kyle@S010600195bd5aaab.ek.shawcable.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- michaelw_ [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:05:31 -!- etpace_ [n=etpace@etpace.eu] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:06:34 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 kyle_ [n=kyle@S010600195bd5aaab.ek.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 michaelw_ [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 etpace_ [n=etpace@etpace.eu] has joined #scheme 18:08:03 Huh you know... what if I have an encryption piece separate, that lists all the keys and such... and all sub-pieces to it are encrypted by that key unless they're another encryption piece. 18:09:03 be easy to do with parameters 18:11:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:04 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:15:00 tomelam [n=tomelam@115.96.213.127] has joined #scheme 18:15:57 chandler: i had another look, it wont be really useful though. 18:16:32 Hi. Can anyone point me to a library of Scheme functions that will implement all but the smallest possible core of Scheme? 18:16:34 -!- Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:50 R5RS, I mean. 18:17:25 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:20:37 Related question: What is the smallest set of primitives in R5RS that can be used to implement the rest of the spec? 18:22:20 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has joined #scheme 18:34:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:42 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:03 dum de dum 18:42:04 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:42:27 Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 18:42:51 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 18:44:32 MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.202.110] has joined #scheme 18:45:14 tomelam: I suspect both of our questions can be answered by inspecting the source of various Scheme implementations. 18:46:51 A lot of implementors like to code as much of the environment as possible using the target language itself, so you could just look at what is part of the environment image and what is written in the language of the host environment. 18:48:11 As much as possible? No, that's not true. 18:48:20 As much as is useful or convenient. 18:48:30 Riastradh: hey! 18:48:41 Hi. 18:48:47 Riastradh: And not just for optimization? 18:49:11 That is one contributor to the criterion of usefulness, TimMc. 18:51:46 I'm looking at implementations to see if I can find one that implements all but a tiny core in Scheme. 18:52:04 incubot: do it all with lambda or else! 18:52:07 Larceny has some good internal designs, but it doesn't fit together very well as a cohesive Scheme system; it has been more a vehicle for experimentation with garbage collection and simple approaches to compilation than anything else. Until a year or two ago, it was also very clumsy to build; now there are more binary distributions, but it may continue to be true. 18:52:50 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:52:56 tomelam: scheme48... 18:54:44 incubot: you spammy good for nothing bot! 18:54:47 what's spammy? 18:54:55 you 18:55:35 tomelam, do you have a particular purpose in mind for what you seek? 18:56:07 incubot, I just looked at larceny. Is there good educational source code to see an example of the definition LIST in Scheme? 18:56:11 I like to use my computer for educational purposes. 18:56:18 I suppose that all one technically has to do is implement enough Scheme to support a universal computer, and the rest is left as an exercise to the programmer. :-/ 18:56:34 tomelam, incubot is a robot, but here's a definition of LIST: (define (list . x) x) 18:56:35 Riastradh, well, yes. I want to replace a GPL library with a BSD library. 18:56:43 *Riastradh* blinks. 18:57:57 (Specifically, incubot (which I keep typing as `incubutt', to my dismay) is a robot that repeats messages from the distant past of the channel recorded in its logs, based on some heuristic for relatedness, usually requiring some words in common or something.) 18:58:10 tomelam: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html ... 18:58:13 tomelam, can you be more specific? 18:58:27 *sladegen* blinks, blinks, blinkz. 18:59:57 rudybot: eval (define list (lambda x x)) (list 1 2 3) 18:59:57 sladegen: your sandbox is ready 18:59:58 sladegen: ; Value: (1 2 3) 19:00:02 Riastradh, yes, I think maybe that was a wince as much as a blink. I am using an implementation of Scheme in JavaScript that does not have a clear GPL license (in my understanding of the GPL). I wish it were LGPL so I could use the parts that get incorporated into my code any way I liked, but no. 19:00:41 sladegen, thanks for reminding me of that. I'll take another look, since it's been years. 19:00:56 tomelam, I meant: can you be more specific about the particular software at issue? 19:01:30 (What is `a clear GPL licence', by the way? There is only one GPL (of any particular version) of which I am aware.) 19:01:36 Riastradh, http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/jsscheme/ 19:02:35 Riastradh, well, besides just saying it's GPL, it should follow the guidelines of how to apply the GPL. I think (but am not sure) it should mention which versions of the GPL apply. 19:03:30 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:47 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhj222.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:48 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:26 tomelam, so is it that you want to build a new Scheme implementation from scratch, or that you want to take some existing primitive foundation and then supply definitions of library routines to that, or...? 19:05:40 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 19:05:41 The latter. 19:05:54 I mean the second. 19:06:00 So what is the existing primitive foundation that you want to build on top of? 19:07:44 http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/jsscheme/ without the library. There is a library that exists in a separate file that gets loaded over the Net when you click the 'library' button. It also seems to be the source code for the compiled Scheme code (compiled to JavaScript) that exists in an element node in the web page. 19:09:41 If you look at the source for that web page and search for the string '// Library begin', you'll see it. 19:10:38 i think you could safely steal the code and relicense it... if you feel guilty try to contact original authors... 19:13:43 sladegen, no, I don't think I could 'relicense' it. I definitely would feel guilty. Yeah, I should contact Chris Double. He didn't answer my first mail, but I can try again. I messed up my first mail to him, overlooking where he'd written that the code was GPL. I'd have to contact Alex Yakovlev, too, but I haven't been able to locate him. 19:14:06 tomelam, if you're taking that existing foundation, but changing the library, how would that help you to avoid the GPL? 19:15:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-144.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:17:00 Riastradh, my theory (from the most careful reading of the GPL that I could do) is that since the core that gets compiled directly to native code is a translation, which is the job of any compiler (e.g. gcc), but libraries have code that *directly* gets incorporated into the object version of a program, there is a difference between these 2 kinds of code. 19:18:15 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:06 And since the job of a compiler is to compile code, which of course can be non-GPL code, then the only part I can't include in BSD-licensed code is the library code. 19:19:43 Sorry, I didn't quite follow. 19:20:18 My understanding is that the JavaScript foundation, starting at `', and all the associated Scheme code, is released under (some unspecified version of) the GPL. 19:20:53 My understanding is furthermore that you have some software that you want to put a Scheme interpreter into, presumably a Scheme interpreter in JavaScript. 19:21:02 Right. But it can be used to compile non-GPL code. 19:21:16 Right. 19:21:42 Well, not exactly 'into', but 'on'. 19:21:45 So how will it help you to take the existing JavaScript foundation, which is released under the GPL, and replace the Scheme library that runs atop it? 19:21:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 19:21:53 so take the gpl core+compiler and write your own bsd library... 19:22:18 sladegen, yeah, I'd like to, but it'd take me forever. 19:22:52 For the R5RS? Not remotely. 19:23:07 Riastradh, the Scheme library would become part of my program, so my program would have to be GPL, but I want it to be BSD. 19:23:19 Why would the JavaScript interpreter not become part of your program? 19:25:17 Riastradh, perhaps I'm on thin ice, but I think that it would be similar to using both GPL-licensed programs and BSD-licensed programs on a Linux kernel. 19:25:48 the same way other interpreters like perl/python/gcc are not part of programms written in their languages... 19:25:57 One can run things layered on top of differently licensed layers. 19:25:58 I thought you were including the JavaScript interpreter in your program. 19:26:43 ...sorry, when I said `the JavaScript interpreter' I meant `the Scheme interpreter written in JavaScript'. 19:27:00 But if you aren't, then why does it matter that some of the implementation of Scheme happens to be written in Scheme, rather than in JavaScript? 19:27:16 Bottom layer: FF/IE/Safari/etc; middle: jsScheme; top: me. 19:27:19 Your program is not required to be GPL'd merely because GCC links it by default against crt0.o or whatnot. 19:27:28 (for C programs) 19:27:58 Nor is it required to be GPL'd merely because you called strlen, and glibc on the machine on which you compiled and linked it is GPL'd software. 19:28:34 Do I understand correctly that you are merely writing a program in Scheme that you expect to be run on this implementation of Scheme in JavaScript? 19:28:39 Riastradh, my (mis?)understanding is that the inclusion of code from the compiler has to be given a special dispensation. 19:28:58 But I don't feel the jsScheme license is clear in this regard. 19:29:16 I thought there might be a library that would be easy to grab... 19:29:31 ...oops, sorry, glibc is LGPL'd. 19:29:47 Riastradh, yes, it will run on jsScheme. 19:30:02 Anyway, there is no general implementation of all of Scheme's library in terms of a standard set of primitives; the set of primitives any library assumes will vary from system to system. 19:30:32 Riastradh, yes, I understand that. 19:30:42 But if what you want is the R5RS, then it is probably no difficult task to rewrite what you need yourself on top of jsScheme. 19:30:47 *Riastradh* vanishes. 19:30:50 But I hoped that I wouldn't have to implement many. 19:31:02 (The R5RS is *tiny*. Go read it.) 19:31:10 perl is gpl... 19:31:52 Riastradh, my 'bandwidth' is not so great that I could implement r5rs overnight or in 1 week. 19:32:24 I'm more familiar with Common Lisp, but I have used Scheme for awhile. 19:32:26 i think that if you put jsscheme and your program in different files you can use different (non-gpl) license for your program. 19:32:59 sladegen, i am not confident of that. 19:33:14 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:37 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:34:07 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 19:38:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:38:25 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 19:39:04 Rats, I erased part of this conversation. Is there an archive of #scheme ? 19:40:27 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme/ 19:40:35 http://community.schemewiki.org/?%23scheme-on-freenode 19:40:54 gnomon, thanks! 19:41:13 *gnomon* waggles a tentacle in tomelam's direction 19:41:35 :S 19:53:37 Riastradh, sladegen, gnomon, thanks! 19:54:45 Quite welcome. Bonne chance! 19:54:53 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=quassel@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:36 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:03 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:04 My guess is I can only afford a small library (since this is for a web app) and I can figure out recursively defined definitions (like cons*), so I'll probably be alright. 19:56:16 jimi_hendrix [n=quassel@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has joined #scheme 19:57:11 I really don't understand lambda, though, which bothers me a lot. It looks like almost anything can be created with a lambda, but I don't understand how. 19:57:25 It's not just for functions, is it? 19:57:42 jimi_hendrix! 19:57:43 It can be used something like a let, right? 19:58:24 mario-goulart: !!!!!!!! 19:58:40 I'm your fan! 19:59:14 I thought you were dead! 19:59:29 wingo [n=wingo@2.Red-83-36-163.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:03 Freeeeedom, freeeeeeeeeeeedom, that's what I want. 20:02:47 freedom is slavery, slavery is freedome. thuuuuuuderDOME! 20:03:19 two libraries in, one object file out! 20:03:25 evening, #scheme. 20:11:05 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95.24.106.216] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 20:13:13 i am writing my first metacircular evaluator. an interesting exercise 20:13:30 Interesting indeed! Evaluating metacircles is thirsty work. 20:14:19 *wingo* is two beers in :) 20:30:28 wingo: alcoholic metacircular evaluation sometimes feels like like scheme's main function -- er well, many scheme's main functions were written using alcoholic meta-circular evaluation -- er well... 20:30:33 er schemes' 20:31:01 good night, all. 20:31:15 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:33 -!- tomelam [n=tomelam@115.96.213.127] has left #scheme 20:38:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:11 :) 20:51:59 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 20:55:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:59 -!- disappearedng [n=disappea@unaffiliated/disappearedng] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:08 leppie: To loop over the syntax, you don't need more than a plain named `let' (at phase 1, of course); what you're referring to is probably more like a named `let-syntax' rather than a named `with-syntax'. But note that if you're at *that* level, you can just as well do the simple loop which will be faster. 21:00:32 (Faster because you don't need to keep trampolining through the macro expander and the related overhead.) 21:00:32 disappearedng [n=disappea@th241042.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #scheme 21:03:36 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 21:07:08 -!- nicoca [n=nicoca@88.168.192.93] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:36 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d207-6-243-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:13:26 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 21:17:03 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:33 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:50 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:30:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:45 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:12 Wohoo Chez Scheme prerelease for the public! :-D 21:32:30 -!- edwardk_ [i=c72e9a60@gateway/web/freenode/x-tptacppimoxtjmdi] has left #scheme 21:34:31 neat 21:35:18 `For the public' doesn't mean `released as free software', does it? 21:38:04 Riastradh++ :) 21:38:18 i believe it means, "for the plebs" :P 21:39:01 prolly no point to /join #emacs... what's the magic foo to determine file's path during loading (i.e. inside it)? 21:39:22 C-h v load-path RET 21:39:24 Riastradh: Petite Chez Scheme is free, as always, but not Chez. :-) 21:39:37 ...and by `path' of course I mean `file-name'. 21:39:46 Petite doesn't seem to work on 10.4. 21:39:57 chandler: Oh? 21:40:25 Yeah. It's the common UNIX2003 issue; it would need to be built using the 10.4 SDK to work on 10.4. 21:40:34 arcfide, Petite Chez is free software? Do note that `free software' has a fairly precise meaning distinct from `gratis' or `available at no monetary charge beyond the cost of distribution'. 21:41:29 I'm not convinced that "free software" has a precise meaning - at least there's one precise definition which I reject. 21:41:38 chandler: What is the particular problem, and have you tried relinking things? 21:42:11 Riastradh: :-) Free above means that it is distributed by Cadence Research Systems free of charge. 21:42:35 chandler, it does not have a completely precise definition, but it certainly excludes Petite Chez Scheme as far as I know. 21:42:42 arcfide: Yes, it's in relinking that the error occurs, I think. 21:43:03 chandler pasted "UNIX2003 symbols undefined on 10.4" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85762 21:43:05 chandler: Really? Have you reported this? 21:43:14 ... No, I only just downloaded it. 21:43:19 Ohh. 21:43:20 :-) 21:43:26 So is this a new problem or an old one? 21:43:41 I don't know. I'm sitting at a 10.4 machine that I rarely use, so I downloaded the prerelease here. 21:43:58 I didn't have petite installed here before. 21:44:22 I tend to think that the term "Free Software" is a pretty good marketing term that the OSS community likes to use, but I see no reason why we should presume that it always applies in the way that RMS would have us take it. 21:44:52 chandler: Did you run a configure first? 21:44:59 *wingo* not in the oss community, but uses the term "free software" 21:45:01 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:45:11 arcfide: Yes. 21:45:17 arcfide, you are confused. 21:45:31 Riastradh: uhm... i mean something like $0 in shell scripting... i don't want to use 'load' all over the place. would rather like to load 'foo-config' and set root path there and implement my own loading of other components... i guess it's too off-topic. 21:45:41 sladegen, yes, `load-file-name'. 21:46:05 chandler: You should report the problem. 21:46:06 arcfide, I don't know what `the OSS community' is, but presumably `OSS' here expands to `open source software', and consequently `the OSS community' presumably likes to use the term `open source software'. 21:46:37 Riastradh: that wuz trivial ;() 21:46:47 arcfide: I don't think it's worth the bother. Apple will stop patching 10.4 in a month, so it's probably time to stop caring about it. 21:47:16 chandler: Oh, if 10.4 is EOL, I guess, yeah. :-) 21:47:27 chandler: I don't have an OS 10.X machine to try things on. 21:48:26 arcfide, in my experience, I have observed that people tend to use the term `open source' to include software whose source code is available to read, i.e. open, but not to build or to modify or to redistribute (whatever the Open Source Initiative states in its definition of `open source'). 21:48:30 Riastradh: I'm not sure why the notion of "with sources included" needs to be included in the definition of "free software", unless one accepts RMS's definition. 21:48:36 MononcQc [i=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:49:53 By contrast, except for those who have not heard `free software' as a single term (and who might guess that it is synonymous with `freeware'), I have never seen it interpreted as anything significantly far from the FSF's definition. 21:50:18 Riastradh: My main point is that there is a lot of politics over who has the right to what terms, and I think this mostly boils down to people desiring to apply their philosophy to cool marketing terms. Not that it isn't something they should be doing, but I don't see why people should be moved to use the term "free software" universally to mean RMS' definition thereof. 21:50:56 Riastradh: I have heard it used many times outside of the FSF definition. 21:51:51 *TimMc* spraypaints "libre" on arcfide's car 21:52:37 arcfide, so, when I said `free software', did you actually believe that I meant `software that I can obtain a copy of in exchange for no more money than the cost of distribution'? 21:52:49 Under the current *popular* terms, labeling Chez (petite or not) as "free software" is misleading. 21:53:25 Somehow I suspect that the answer to my question is `no'. 21:53:31 And misleading here is not really "cool marketing", it's just a bad one. 21:53:36 Riastradh: Actually, in this case, yes. Since the price of Chez usually comes as the main complaint I hear, seconded by the lack of public source code, I presumed that you were talking about the price. 21:53:37 wuthermelon [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-192-18.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:14 eli: Would you prefer the term freeware? 21:54:18 Just curious -- did anyone else in the channel think I was talking about `software that I can obtain a copy of in exchange for no more money than the cost of distribution'? 21:54:49 arcfide: Yes, definitely. Even "free application" would be better than "free software". 21:55:08 arcfide, has anyone ever complained about the monetary price of Petite Chez? 21:55:26 Riastradh: I assumed that you were referring to your own personal definition of free software, which I did not know at the time. 21:55:51 I have several times made the statement that software licensed under the GPL is not free software. Am I being misleading? 21:56:19 Or simply making a judgement about what I consider to be free software? 21:56:28 Riastradh: No, they haven't, but I believe we all know where we (and all forms of Chez Scheme) stand now. :-) 21:57:52 chandler, by doing that you are making a judgement about what you consider to be free software. It is true that I didn't specify my definition of `free software'. The reason is that in nearly all of my communication, either the term `free software' conveys a meaning sufficiently close to what I intended, or the other conversants have never heard it before as a term. 21:59:46 Likewise, in most of my correspondence, we usually presume "free of charge" and explicitly distinguish the RMS/FSF definition. 22:01:25 we? 22:01:34 But I guess we can add to the list of R6RS Schemes now. Rejoice or weap, as moved. 22:01:50 wingo: My academic, professional, and personal colleagues. 22:02:00 wingo: As well as my clients. 22:02:44 you speak of a we that is not present in this we :) 22:02:52 Usually, if we get to a place where understanding distribution rights is important, we explicitly state BSD, ISC, or GPL (L, V3, v2) licenses instead of saying "free software". 22:03:31 wingo: A somewhat unfortunate fault of the English language, I believe, but correct me if I am wrong. 22:03:36 That's interesting (your use of the term) -- just like the common bias against *free* software (the popular term) on c.l.l, which I always assumed came from the fact that most good CLs are commercial. 22:03:51 ("your" being the above mentioned "we".) 22:04:21 *wingo* is just needling 22:05:07 On the few moments that I went into the Lisp thing a few months ago, I witnessed Costanza shouting at some poor soul (that dared to complain about the general non-free state of things) "WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?". 22:05:26 I wonder if "we" (the heretofore implied entities "present" (being logged in via network) in #scheme) could pass the bar? 22:05:26 (This was supposed to convince the guy to use some commercial lisp.) 22:05:43 Hehe. 22:06:32 The frightening thing about all that is that shortly before that I've seen some videos on those whatchamacallit semi-cult/religious lunatics, intimidating people who left their cult, 22:06:51 This is why I don't bother with c.l.l. 22:06:52 and "WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF" was *exactly* on of their ways of doing that intimidation. 22:07:04 eli: I am familiar with that, unfortunately. And yes, that's not exactly the way to convince someone that buying a piece of software is worth it. 22:07:47 arcfide: Well, he's not really selling it, so I guess that things balance themselves out in the end. 22:07:50 eli: I'd prefer to not draw any more connection than necessary with the social practices of C.L.L. 22:08:09 (Incidentally, I don't apply the term `free' in general as a modifier implying that free software is involved; I only use the pair of words `free software' as a term, with particularly the FSF's definition.) 22:08:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:08:31 Riastradh: Good to know, I'll keep that in mind the next time you use the term. :-) 22:09:06 chandler: There are several things about c.l.l that bugged me to no end (and eventually convinced me to give up usenet) -- the ridiculous backlash against anyone poor enough to ask about some open source implementation, as well as the all-too-common deterioration of threads into stupid analogies. 22:09:19 Most of the time I avoid it in my face to face discussions because there is usually someone who doesn't thing GPL is free, or things that BSD or ISC is an abomination, or who doesn't really care about that so long as they can use it without paying. 22:09:22 And I'll wager a guess that the vast majority of Freenode users do the same. 22:09:25 (Where 95% of these analogies tend to use Latin, for some reason.) 22:10:07 s/use/talk about/ 22:10:08 I sometimes use the term "free-licensed software" to remove ambiguity. "Libre" isn't quite there yet. 22:10:09 eli: One bad newsgroup shouldn't scare you away from Usenet. I've found quite a nice set of groups that i like to follow. :-) 22:10:23 eli: Latin is a great way to reveal your ignorance, or be very witty. Usually the former. 22:10:31 :o 22:10:49 arcfide: I find c.l.s as only marginally better. 22:11:02 eli: Do you filter people and threads that aren't useful? :-) 22:11:08 found in a comment in guile's eval.c: "The semantics is clear:" 22:11:22 eli: The world of WWW forums is more annoying, personally. 22:11:30 *arcfide* chuckles. 22:11:30 arcfide: No. 22:12:11 eli: I find the same or worse behavior in those forums, and I can't filter or easily find the useful information out of it, so I usually stick with Usenet. 22:12:18 arcfide: And if you're talking about those things where people have avatars that are often some supposedly cute gif that insist on jumping around, then yes, I usually throw up when I see these things. 22:13:18 Our department has moved away from nntp to some such "forum software". I took some time to learn how to use google groups to set up a mailing list in response. 22:13:29 eli: I'm also talking about the lack of a conversation flow, the insults, the insults with pictures, the lack of response, the stupidity of answers, or the general overal noise. Then again, isn't that just a natural part of human discussion? 22:13:36 And this is supposed to be some "solid" forum thing. 22:14:08 arcfide: Take of "pictures", and you're describing usenet. 22:15:03 eli: Exactly, forums, mailing lists, usenet, they all have the same problems. I like Usenet because the software usually has enough features to help deal with the problems, as opposed to forums. Mailing lists work, but require a little more work for me. 22:15:04 Ugh, s/of/off/ 22:15:40 ?? 22:16:04 The software in question (eg, gnus) can deal with mailing list just the same; and if not that, there's always Gmane. 22:17:00 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:39 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:51 eli: I usually have to set up a couple of extra filters for mailing lists, as well as remember some extra stuff to administer things on my side. Usenet is easier compared to that, and provides a pretty uniform interface. 22:18:05 eli: I prefer to have a mail<->news gateway for everything. :-) 22:18:45 -!- wuthermelon [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-192-18.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has left #scheme 22:19:07 arcfide: You should really try gmane then. It has `mail->news' for most mailing lists you care about, and easy to add new ones. 22:23:04 eli: I have. 22:23:30 Time to eat. 22:24:33 haole [n=ivan@189.35.188.83] has joined #scheme 22:24:56 i have a doubt... i have a statement like this: (set! holder data), for example 22:25:48 let's say that holder is a list... if i make a "get" like procedure to get some element of my list, like this: (set! (get-element holder) data), scheme will complain that (get-element holder) is not an identifier... how do i do this? 22:26:32 (set-element! holder data) ? 22:27:22 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:27:37 SRFI 17 can translate (set! (get-element holder) data) to (set-element! holder data) for you 22:28:41 gonna look into it... thanks 22:36:15 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:01 p1dzkl: your suggestion worked... thanks, but i wonder why won't the interpreter eval (get-element holder)? 22:39:51 scheme has no concept of locations (like lvalues in C) 22:43:31 -!- kyle_ [n=kyle@S010600195bd5aaab.ek.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:32 set! is a special syntax that changes a binding, it doesn't know about cars and cdrs and elements 22:44:40 and for example set-car! is a regular procedure that knows how to change the car of a cons 22:44:45 big big difference 22:45:16 hum 22:51:48 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:55:14 drybowser6 [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-192-18.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:27 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:59:49 twobitsprite [n=isaac@li24-165.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:07 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:25 I just wanted to come in here and complain about the ungooglableness of "scheme" 23:00:54 +1 23:00:56 and also to ask if anyone knows of any resources on 3d rendering in scheme? 23:01:36 twobitsprite: Well, you'll be glad to know that I am working on that problem. 23:01:44 BRB 23:01:46 oh? 23:01:55 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 23:03:23 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:53 or maybe if anyone has any recommendations on which scheme implementation to use for a 3D action game? I know chicken is supposed to be fast, but does it support the various features that the likes of MIT scheme have, etc? 23:03:57 twobitsprite: Yes, I am working on Descot, which aims to help make Scheme resources (libraries, in particular) more visible. 23:04:05 ahh 23:04:41 twobitsprite: You want to make a 3-D action game? What kind, and do you have the platform/engine already picked out? 23:04:57 That could make a big difference. You'll probably find that you need to make you own bindings into the specific engine that you want. 23:05:16 If you are writing your engine from hand, then I don't think it really matters so long as you pick one with a proper FFI. 23:05:45 Or, if you are able to deal with MIT Scheme's memory limitations and can comprehend the internals enough to integrate it in with some foreign code. :-) 23:06:25 twobitsprite: As for Descot, Version 1 will be available shortly, which will be the first version that I expect to actually use. 23:07:47 well... I'm thinking openGL, at least for now, but I'm open to suggestions 23:08:21 platform will be linux and windows... possible osx in the future 23:08:41 twobitsprite: Okay, so you are not going to use an existing engine? 23:09:59 I wasn't planning on it 23:10:00 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:10:12 do you know of any you recommend looking in to? 23:10:36 I'm still at a very high-level design/concept phase 23:15:56 hmm.. does chick not have a windows binary build you can just download? 23:15:59 twobitsprite: Not really, but writing game engines is a lot of work. If you want to make something big time and commercial with large/fast framerates, you might want to look into some of the existing engines. On the other hand, if you want to learn to write one, go ahead. 23:16:09 -!- drybowser6 [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-192-18.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:28 twobitsprite: On the other side, you might look into Blender, which should still have a game engine in it, and you could easily extend it to work with Scheme. 23:16:54 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:08 For that, any decent embeddable Scheme will work. I like Chez, personally, but anything that you could link into Blender that would suit your needs should do. 23:17:17 At any rate, I'm out of here! 23:20:59 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:36 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:28:55 Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 23:33:03 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:10 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:35 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 23:34:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:43 i'm working with a function that uses it's own custodian (plt). however, if i change this function to return me a procedure (using lambda) with the same code inside, it doesn't work... it is supposed to launch a thread, but it won't work... my question is: do lambda calls affect custodians? 23:35:03 muzgo [n=none@200.255.103.130] has joined #scheme 23:35:35 You need to be much more specific, haole. If the code isn't very large, it's helpful to post it on . 23:36:19 Riastradh: ok, gonna do it 23:36:50 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:37:08 -!- MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.202.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:11 haole pasted "thread not working with lambda" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85765 23:38:56 Can you please define `work'? 23:39:11 Usually it suggests behaving as you expect, but I don't know what you expect. 23:39:32 Riastradh: i make a call to the function and the code inside "sense-handler" (the callback function) gets run 23:39:35 Also, it is conventional to indent the body of PARAMETRIZE forms with two spaces, rather than with over a dozen. 23:39:53 Riastradh: that was my emacs behavior :) 23:40:04 (put 'parametrize 'scheme-indent-function 1) 23:40:16 ? 23:40:27 oh 23:40:31 right, emacs :D 23:40:39 Evaluating that (e.g., by putting it in your .emacs file) will fix Emacs's indentation of the forms. 23:41:18 By the way, you are aware of the opening round bracket on its own line just before the LET in the second definition, right? 23:41:29 worked like a charm 23:41:53 Riastradh: is it ugly? :D 23:42:42 It is indeed ugly, and it is not clear to me why you have it in one definition but not the other; my wild guess is that the only difference between the two definitions is meant to be whether one writes (MAKE-SENSE-HANDLER A B) or ((MAKE-SENSE-HANDLER A) B). 23:43:33 Riastradh: hum... i was trying to follow lambda's syntax: (lambda (foo) (body)) 23:43:37 oh, now i see 23:43:41 that looks wrong :D 23:43:53 i'm making a call to body there 23:43:57 that must be it 23:43:57 LAMBDA's syntax does not imply an extra layer of parentheses about the body. 23:43:58 Exactly. 23:44:15 gonna look into this... thanks 23:59:09 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme