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00:37:45 <arcfide> jcowan: I'll have to figure out some benchmarks to run.
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00:41:39 <arthurmaciel> hi!
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00:49:07 <arcfide> Hello
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00:53:35 <arthurmaciel> arcfide: any news? any new program? any new job? any new... hm..
00:54:07 -!- sphex_ is now known as sphex
00:54:15 <jcowan> Nothing ever happens in this life of mine / I'm hauling out the data on the Xerox line!
00:56:36 <jonrafkind> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/234075/what-is-your-best-programmer-joke/235790#235790
00:56:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/l5pub7
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00:57:42 <arcfide> arthurmaciel: Still working on the job, I wrote a new mod_lisp library today to make it work with all my other libraries, be simpler, and have more features than MIT Scheme's version.
00:58:12 <arcfide> arthurmaciel: Oh, and of course, I'm cleaning up everything related to Descot in preparation for the Scheme workshop.
00:58:35 <arcfide> My Sockets library is now has more features, in fewer lines of code.
00:58:47 <arcfide> And out of it came a neat little expansion time FFI utility.
00:58:54 <arcfide> Hrm....
00:59:36 <arcfide> Oh, and over the past few days I've fixed and properly written my RFC 2822 and MIME parser libraries.
01:00:22 <arcfide> Um, other than that?
01:00:26 *jcowan* admires arcfide's energy.
01:00:49 <arcfide> jcowan: The prospect of having a non-working product at the Scheme workshop is a great motivator.
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01:04:22 <arcfide> jcowan: You're telling me you're not hacking away at Scheme code constantly?
01:06:38 <jcowan> You are so right, arcfide.
01:06:43 *jcowan* is old, tired, and sick
01:07:36 *jcowan* is so over the hill he can hardly hack any more
01:08:02 <arcfide> :-/
01:08:14 <arcfide> So, at least, you can tell me how to drop TCP connection on Linux?
01:09:16 <jonrafkind> close the socket
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01:10:54 <arcfide> jonrafkind: Har har.
01:11:49 <jonrafkind> how else can you close a tcp conection?
01:12:17 <arcfide> jonrafkind: On OpenBSD I have 'tcpdrop'.
01:12:31 <jonrafkind> thats in libc?
01:13:04 <jonrafkind> oh its a command line program
01:13:52 <jonrafkind> thats neat, ive never heard of anything like that in linux
01:13:59 <jonrafkind> i guess you could do it as root somehow
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01:17:10 <arcfide> Well, alright, time to close shop for the night.
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01:22:40 <zbigniew> descot sounds like a descending version of ascot
01:23:17 <zbigniew> or a way to take the scottish right out of you
01:25:51 <jcowan> demickeyizer
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01:35:59 <zbigniew> it's like the opposite of those old chef.exe and jive.exe translators, that google paid tribute to with its "swedish chef" language option
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01:43:36 <arthurmaciel> see you, guys
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02:34:55 <foof> Meh, the app server my old company made had jive and all the BSD filter language options long before Google ever did.
02:37:18 <jcowan> Google AppEngine is about removing features, not adding them
02:37:34 <jcowan> The whole point of it is that it has to be able to run safely inside the firewall.
02:37:58 <jcowan> Google, the world's largest sandbox.
02:40:10 <foof> This wasn't the kind of "feature" that could have any effect on security.  We just ran the filters on the English version of the message files (like gettext, but we used our own solution) to get static message files in all the variations.
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02:44:11 *Adamant* stabs Google App Engine
02:44:36 <jcowan> foof: I realize that.  I'm simply pointing out that most of the effort has gone into sandboxing rather than adding features.
02:45:22 <Adamant> hurry up and let Amazon's stuff take over, damnit
02:45:30 <jcowan> Doubtless (this is not a "forward-looking statement" within the meaning of the Act) features will increasingly get  attention.
02:45:50 <jcowan> I'm a big fan of Amazon's stuff, but it's different in intention.
02:45:56 <Adamant> (sorry jcowan)
02:46:13 <jcowan> Oh, I'm a very satisfied Amazon S3 customer, though I haven't had a need for EC2 yet.
02:46:34 <jcowan> I know a guy who runs a very successful specialized-web-crawl business on S3 and EC2, though.
02:48:04 <jcowan> The point of GAE is to let people run their code in the Google environment using the Google machine clusters, highly distributed database, etc. etc.
02:49:58 <jcowan> Amazon EC2 machine instances don't have access to anything but Amazon S3, and even then I think they have to use the same API as outside computers.
02:49:59 *zbigniew* tries to figure out what the encheferizer has to do with google app engine
02:52:11 <Adamant> jcowan: I just hate the language-specific bit
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02:54:27 <jcowan> Again, very hard to sandbox if you allow arbitrary machine code to run.
02:55:08 <jcowan> For example, you don't want users able to open arbitrary sockets, but reading from outside-the-firewall URLs is fine (they get redirected through a cache in many cases).
02:55:52 <foof> Well, there are whole sandboxed x86 emulators.  But more practically, all you really need to do is intercept system calls.
02:56:39 <Adamant> there are plenty of MAC systems for sandboxing. the problem there is making them easy to use
02:57:13 <Adamant> foof: it can take more than systrace-like approaches.
03:00:46 <jcowan> But how do you tell, for example, if a socket connection being opened to a GFS chunkserver is a legitimate operation by a Bigtable client, or an attempt to read arbitrary Google-proprietary information?
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03:01:25 <jcowan> If you lock out general socket opens and only allow Google-blessed routines (like the aforementioned client) to do them, you have a much more high-level safety property.
03:01:35 <jcowan> Attempting to reconstruct that from compiled code would be really, really hard.
03:01:59 <Adamant> jcowan: or you could just give customers their own slice of the GoogleBotnet :P
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03:02:31 <jcowan> Someday, I suppose Google might allow doubly sandboxed code using Native Client, where you don't expect the code to do more than rudimentary I/O.
03:02:39 <foof> You don't have to reconstruct anything if you're able to intercept the system call.
03:03:17 <jcowan> Yes you do, because you don't know if the system call is coming from safe or unsafe code.
03:03:24 <foof> And I sure hope Google doesn't have proprietary information inside the same firewalled region as the public app servers!
03:03:33 <jcowan> There isn't enough context in the call itself to tell.
03:06:40 <foof> Hmmm... I was assuming there would be no "blessed" function calls and that all security could be determined at the syscall level.
03:08:36 <jcowan> That would make GAE like EC2, which is not the purpose.
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03:09:37 <foof> e.g. I assumed the security on things like the GFS chunkserver were handled at their own level - users had read access on all the data they were physically connected to.  If you put sensitive info on the same machine, you're asking for trouble.
03:09:46 <jcowan> Oh, sure
03:10:07 <jcowan> but BigTable is hosted on GFS, and so it's necessary for your GAE instance to talk to other Google boxes -- but only in controlled ways.
03:10:30 <jcowan> BigTable, unlike your instance, is persistent.
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06:51:04 <neilv> wait! don't install the latest internet
06:51:21 <neilv> there's a nasty virus called "twitter"
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07:18:15 <neilv> ;;;     (Total: 146  Passed: 102  Failed: 44)
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07:18:25 <neilv> soon htmlprag will work without mutable pairs
07:22:18 <leppie> will it remove the twitter virus too?  :)
07:23:45 <neilv> practically, it could be used for that purpose.  scraping the twitter web site and gatewaying to a more appropriate medium :)
07:24:29 <leppie> like <html><title/><body/></html> ? :p
07:26:16 <neilv> for 99.99% of the traffic, that's a start
07:28:28 <leppie> oh I hate web 'programming', nowadays, the closest I get to doing work on it, is the occasional web service
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09:52:26 <michaelw> huh.  there is no SRFI for pattern matching?
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10:09:06 <gnomon> michaelw, there is Dorai Sitaram's pregexp, and the Knuth-Morris-Pratt portion of SRFI-13.
10:09:12 <gnomon> There's also irregex.
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10:12:33 <leppie> patterns are limited to regex? :O
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10:23:49 <gnomon> leppie, who said anything about that?  I'm just tossing out examples.
10:24:33 <foof> http://synthcode.com/scheme/match.scm is a portable pattern matching library
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10:29:56 <wingo> oleg's pmatch is a good matcher, for a short implementation
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10:30:35 <Cheery> hi
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10:32:08 <foof> match.scm is a lot more featureful, and a very concise implementation
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10:33:05 <leppie> ooo pattern matching deathmatch
10:33:38 <wingo> foof: match.scm is more featureful, and about 6 times as long :)
10:35:06 <foof> The original match.scm with the basic syntax is about 100 lines.
10:35:54 <wingo> pmatch is 30 lines.
10:36:24 <foof> It's only support for non-linear patterns that makes it complicated.
10:36:54 <wingo> can you give an example of a nonlinear pattern?
10:39:12 <foof> wingo: Sure, which is impressive for a minimal pattern matcher, but for any practical uses the difference between 30 lines and 100 lines is negligible, and match.scm is really much, _much_ more featureful than pmatch.
10:40:41 <wingo> i will admit to a large amount of ignorance here. i'm sure your matcher is much better :)
10:41:23 <foof> A non-linear pattern is a pattern that reuses the same identifier multiple times, requiring all repeats to be equal? to each other.
10:41:47 <foof> e.g. (x _ x) will match ((a b) (c d) (a b)) but not ((a b) (c d) (a b c))
10:44:57 <wingo> interesting.
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10:45:56 <Dark-Side> a lot.
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12:40:09 <masm> In which file are DrScheme's key bindings defined?
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13:05:26 <foof> Yay, I just had software fail to build because I had my LANG var set and tr -d '\r' choked.
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13:07:07 <foof> And "unset LANG; make distclean; ./configure; make" didn't fix it.  I had to rm -rf and reunpack the tarball w/o my LANG set to be able to build.
13:07:39 *foof* loves software
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13:22:29 <abbe> hi all
13:22:58 <abbe> what are the equivalents of 'set-car!' and 'set-cdr!' in mzscheme ?
13:24:06 <abbe> rudybot: eval (define a '(3 . 4)) (set-car! a 30) (car a)
13:24:08 <rudybot> abbe: your sandbox is ready
13:24:08 <rudybot> abbe: error: reference to undefined identifier: set-car!
13:30:00 <foof> abbe: The mzscheme solution is self-flagellation and asking forgiveness to mutate that which the lord almighty already created in perfection.
13:30:46 *abbe* is a noob, master foof.
13:32:43 <abbe> self-flagellation, foof ?
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13:32:52 <neilv> abbe: the default dialect of plt scheme doesn't support them.  there are other dialects in plt scheme that support them, but life will be unpleasant for you if you get in the habit of using them
13:33:19 <neilv> abbe: coincidentally, i've spent all morning removing set-cdr! from some code i wrote in 2001
13:33:22 <abbe> neilv: I also don't like to use mutable stuff in functional programming, but just following SICP :-)
13:33:50 <neilv> use this: http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/
13:36:43 <abbe> okay, neilv are there any other issues I'm going to encounter, other than this.
13:37:07 <abbe> s/, neilv/neilv,/
13:37:36 <neilv> abbe: if you use that package, you shouldn't encounter issues
13:38:31 <abbe> neilv: and i'm using Emacs, and run-scheme, do I need to do anything after loading up mzscheme, once I installed your package from drscheme ?
13:38:58 <neilv> if you're using emacs, you might as well use mit-scheme
13:40:10 <neilv> using sicp-plt outside of drscheme is unsupported. it's a low priority
13:40:20 <abbe> okay.
13:41:40 <neilv> but if you do try to use sicp-plt outside of drscheme, you want the mred command rather than the mzscheme one, and i don't recall whether even that works
13:41:57 <abbe> okay, btw, set-car! and set-cdr! are part of scheme standards ?
13:42:09 <neilv> yes
13:42:26 <neilv> with plt scheme 4.x, they diverged in a couple ways
13:42:55 <neilv> the immutable pairs are the single biggest thing. there aren't any more surprises like that
13:43:18 <abbe> okay
13:44:24 <abbe> neilv: so in mzscheme, pairs are immutable, whereas in conforming implementations, they've to be mutable, right ?
13:45:25 <neilv> yes (but, as a side comment, calling it mzscheme is confusing for historical reasons too complicated to explain)
13:45:47 <abbe> okay, s/mzscheme/plt-scheme/g
13:45:51 <neilv> plt scheme also supports the r5rs dialect (they call it a language)
13:46:13 <abbe> so the one which is taught in SICP is r5rs ? or r6rs ?
13:46:42 <sladegen> i don't think there was even r4rs when 2nd ed of sicp came out.
13:46:54 <sladegen> so it's more like r3rs.
13:46:59 <neilv> r5rs mostly works for sicp
13:47:16 <neilv> there are a few odd things
13:47:39 <abbe> what is the dialect plt offers by default in mzscheme ?
13:48:09 <sladegen> mzscheme dialect?
13:48:19 <neilv> sladegen: no
13:48:31 <sladegen> every scheme is its own dialact... mostly.
13:51:11 <abbe> thanks neilv and sladegen.
13:51:18 <neilv> http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/html/reference/running-sa.html#(idx._(gentag._317._(lib._scribblings/reference/reference..scrbl)))
13:53:03 <abbe> guile/bigloo works supports mutators by default.
13:57:28 <sladegen> only plt has this weirdness and it's only recent 4.x/r6rs schizopherenia.
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14:04:52 <eli> neilv: It should work fine by just using `mred-text' instead of `mzscheme' (I even checked it after what's-his-name whined.)
14:05:29 <eli> abbe: You will do yourself a favor if you just skip the whole `set-car!' `set-cdr!' part of the book; that part is old and mostly irrelevant.
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14:06:22 <eli> abbe: For the few cases where sicp is using some localized form of mutation, you can easily translate it into uses of `box', `unbox', and `set-box!' -- and the resulting code would be generally better.
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14:08:12 <Cheery> what'd be the most convenient practise in event of exceptions?
14:08:22 <Cheery> (from implementation perspective)
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14:16:20 <abbe> okay, eli :)
14:30:40 <etpace_> Has anyone here used minikanren/the reasoned schemer?
14:31:56 <neilv> ;;;     (Total: 146  Passed: 126  Failed: 20)
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14:34:22 <ubuntu-nathan> hello
14:34:28 <ubuntu-nathan> for all!!
14:35:09 <ubuntu-nathan> existe algum brasileiro por aqui neste canal??
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14:41:23 <etpace_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/85476 -- The question is, what's associated with r? I'd have thought it would be ((split navy) (pea bean)), but the answer is ((split pea) (navy bean)) -- can anybody explain why? x is unified with split and navy, not split and pea
14:41:25 <neilv> ;;;     (Total: 146  Passed: 145  Failed: 1)
14:41:37 <leppie> go neilv!
14:42:15 <neilv> the funny thing is, i know where the last change needs to be made, and it's a big one, and i would've thought that more than 1 test case would've caught it
14:42:43 <leppie> im paranoid about tests lying to me
14:44:10 <neilv> professional counseling could help you learn to trust again
14:45:06 <synx> lies!
14:45:11 <synx> lies and trickery!
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15:08:42 <neilv> all tests passed. time to ship it
15:12:28 <masm> Where are DrScheme's default key bindings defined? I'm trying to find them so that I can use the examples to make customizations.
15:15:15 <neilv> there is a gui: menu item Edit -> Keybindings -> ...
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15:16:57 <masm> Yes. I would like to see examples of files defining key bindings.
15:18:58 <masm> I read the manual but am unable to do what I want. For example, I can user F5 to Start. How do I bind a key to Stop?
15:19:33 <masm> s/user/use/
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15:36:03 <abbe> I've a query: Are runtime requirements of programs written in functional programming languages higher in comparison to programs written in imperative programming languages, esp. memory, due to presence of immutable entities, hmm...?
15:37:17 <neilv> abbe: it depends. functional programs can have lower resource requirements too
15:39:16 <abbe> neilv: okay, but in most of the cases, they're going to require more memory, right ?
15:39:36 <neilv> abbe: i wouldn't say that
15:39:41 <neilv> there are so many other variables
15:40:42 <abbe> like ?
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15:41:59 <neilv> the language itself, the language implementation technology, the style of programming, the target architecture, the application...
15:43:04 <masm> abbe: Basically, given sufficiently smart compilers there should be no overhead associated to the functional style of programming.
15:43:05 <abbe> so you need an implementation technology where you can allocate/deallocate memory quickly...
15:43:53 <abbe> masm: but what are compilers going to do about memory allocation, are they going to embed mutability in your code by detecting some common pattern ?
15:44:11 <neilv> functional programming can enable optimizations
15:44:39 <neilv> even on single cores. and everyone is talking about multiple cores now and suddenly everyone wants to know fp
15:45:14 <abbe> okay, so is my assumption of higher memory requirement by programs written in functional programming languages is wrong ?
15:45:44 <neilv> i would say so
15:45:55 <masm> Mostly.
15:45:56 <abbe> and there are special memory techniques to avoid that issue without losing the immutability..
15:46:06 <abbe> s/memory//
15:47:47 <neilv> would you say that sandwiches use more resources than stews?
15:48:25 <neilv> is there special sandwich technology to avoid combinatoric explosion of turkey slices?
15:49:33 <neilv> does it matter if the sandwich is hot and the stew is cold, and vice versa?
15:50:30 <neilv> someone said that sandwiches are often too big to fit in your mouth, but stews can be sucked through a straw. is this true?
15:50:32 <abbe> okay, neilv . i am just curious about their implementation.
15:51:05 <neilv> abbe: i'm trying to sleepily make a point that your question is too general, and there's no general rule
15:51:49 <abbe> neilv: okay
15:52:07 <abbe> thanks neilv and masm.
15:53:22 <masm> abbe, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler_optimization
15:53:26 <masm> And http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html
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15:54:42 <abbe> okay so Data Structure fusion optimization is a kind of loss of immutability
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18:06:18 <ubuntu-nathan> hi
18:06:46 <ubuntu-nathan> i've created an PLT Scheme forum
18:06:58 <ubuntu-nathan> here is the link: http://z6.invisionfree.com/Scheme
18:07:16 <ubuntu-nathan> because i didn't see any PLT Scheme forum in the internet
18:07:23 <ubuntu-nathan> then i created only
18:07:33 <ubuntu-nathan> one
18:07:39 <ubuntu-nathan> please see
18:08:25 <neilv> http://plt-scheme.org/community.html
18:08:42 <neilv> there are the email lists there. plus there are often plt people on #scheme
18:08:55 <neilv> and on comp.lang.scheme
18:09:02 <ubuntu-nathan> but i dislike email lists
18:09:17 <ubuntu-nathan> and this forum is for those who dislike tto
18:09:21 <ubuntu-nathan> too*
18:09:53 <ubuntu-nathan> neilv: take a look at my forum
18:10:06 <neilv> the banner image alone is cracksmoking
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18:10:46 <ubuntu-nathan> if you want create one banner
18:10:52 <ubuntu-nathan> and send it to me
18:10:57 <ubuntu-nathan> if you want
18:11:41 <ubuntu-nathan> lets create another community of PLT Scheme
18:11:45 <ubuntu-nathan> with this forum
18:12:00 <ubuntu-nathan> for the people have some more chooses
18:13:45 <neilv> let's use scheme instead
18:14:59 <ubuntu-nathan> the cooses that i reffer was of types of communitys
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18:29:04 <ubuntu-nathan> bye
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19:14:53 <Cheery> is there common ways to denote function?
19:15:08 <Cheery> just wondering for a symbol replacement for 'function'
19:16:18 <masm> What?
19:17:03 <Cheery> well, thing is that if I write lots of code in my language, there starts appearing 'function' word spewed all over the code.
19:17:25 <Cheery> so thinking about a shorthand for 'function'
19:17:31 <masm> "fn"
19:18:05 <Cheery> hmm. better than "f"
19:21:06 <Cheery> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/134660
19:21:57 <masm> Even more important for the success of a language than its semantics is the symbol for "function". Choose it wisely.
19:22:10 <jonrafkind> lambda
19:22:47 <masm> jonrafkind: Bah. That is to lispy.
19:23:35 <jonrafkind> this_is_a_function_please_pass_the_butter
19:24:27 <neilv> some lispy languages use "fn"
19:24:57 <neilv> or you could use square brackets, like smalltalk blocks
19:26:31 <Cheery> I like fn, but I'm feeling there comes trouble if somebody would want to use it as a variable name
19:27:21 <Cheery> but perhaps it's stupid trouble.
19:27:22 <masm> That is also a problem with any other name. Go with the brackets.
19:28:06 <jonrafkind> maybe you should choose a name no one would ever use like, x8z. readable and concise!
19:28:25 <chandler> l4a: l, 4 letters, a
19:28:56 <Cheery> the trouble with '[' is that I have to add ']' into end
19:29:17 <chandler> perhaps it should be invisible!
19:29:21 <Cheery> and I'd rather use it for lists.
19:29:25 <chandler> zero width non breaking space is a lambda
19:29:44 <jonrafkind> all syntax could be just whitespace
19:30:07 <chandler> You laugh! http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
19:30:33 <Cheery> if I color the 'fn' in syntax editor, I think it's slightly better than 'def'
19:30:38 <jonrafkind> aha, or maybe all syntax could just be -'s and +'s !
19:30:44 <jonrafkind> wouldnt that be a funny language as well!
19:31:28 <chandler> Cheery: Why are you using such short identifiers?
19:32:14 <chandler> I personally think that treating typing and reading identifiers in code as a significant bottleneck encourages exactly the wrong sort of thinking about what the difficult part of programming really is.
19:33:22 <wingo> "It is generally true that we tend to believe that the expense of a programming construct is proportional to the amount of writer's cramp that it causes us (by "belief" I mean here an unconscious tendency rather than a fervent conviction). Indeed, this is not a bad psychological principle for language designers to keep in mind. We think of addition as cheap partly because we can notate it with a single character: "+". Even if we bel
19:33:23 <wingo> ieve that a construct is expensive, we will often prefer it to a cheaper one if it will cut our writing effort in half."
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19:33:31 <wingo> (the prophet steele)
19:34:44 <Cheery> chandler: usually I use such things only in inner loops and such where it's enough to know that the thing is 'value' or 'function', and other times when I have bad day with naming.
19:35:14 <chandler> For what it's worth, I wouldn't have any issues with using alphabetic identifiers for arithmetic functions, such as 'add', 'multiply', 'divide', etc.
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19:36:09 <wingo> chandler's not normal, la la la
19:36:10 <wingo> :)
19:36:15 <Cheery> chandler: you think I should go on with 'function' -keyword then?
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19:37:14 <Cheery> hm. I write it every now and then when I go on..
19:37:23 <jonrafkind> if only there was some way to allow prorgammers to extend the syntax of the system... oh wait, syntax abstraction!
19:37:47 <Cheery> and really, when I've been doing through my code, I've used to remove all the too-short identifiers and replace them with more descriptive names.
19:38:47 <chandler> wingo: Steele has a point, though. I wonder how many times I've reached for `define-syntax' or `defmacro' only to get rid of the syntactic hiccup caused by a `lambda' surrounding a thunk, as compared to the compact block syntax offered by Smalltalk.
19:41:24 <chandler> Cheery: I think 'lambda' and 'function' are good names, but I think a special syntax for closures has strong appeal as well.
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19:47:21 <Cheery> special 'function' -symbol would be useful at this point.
19:48:21 <chandler> that's greek small letter lambda
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19:49:45 <Cheery>  yeah, absolutely nice especially since I can't get it with any key-combination I have.
19:51:14 <chandler> Yeah. That's the downside :-)
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19:55:33 <Cheery> getting to sleep
19:56:04 <Cheery> I'm missing something, just not sure what it is.
19:58:44 <Cheery> gah
19:58:51 <Cheery> I have to type more my language to find it out.
19:58:55 <Cheery> gn
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20:29:24 <masm> How do I specify that a field is field in typed-scheme language?
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20:32:05 <ubuntu-nathan> hi
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20:32:47 <ubuntu-nathan> i've created an PLT Scheme forum
20:32:52 <ubuntu-nathan> here is the link: http://z6.invisionfree.com/Scheme
20:33:54 <ubuntu-nathan> let's improve our community
20:33:54 <ubuntu-nathan> !
20:35:21 <gnomon> ubuntu-nathan, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but most Scheme programmers these days tend to prefer newsgroups - comp.lang.scheme in particular - and implementation-specific mailing lists, to which Gmane usually provides a much better interface than most forum packages.
20:35:55 <ubuntu-nathan> gnomon: ok!
20:35:58 <ubuntu-nathan> sorry
20:36:04 <gnomon> Your enthusiasm is great, and I wish you very good luck with your efforts, but it's not terribly likely that another discussion forum will be widely adopted.
20:36:06 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme
20:36:08 <gnomon> No, no, don't apologize!
20:36:24 <gnomon> It's not a bad thing to want to talk about Scheme!
20:36:31 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
20:40:12 <ubuntu-nathan> how i can subcribe comp.lang.scheme newsgroup in Outlook
20:40:20 <ubuntu-nathan> or in thunderbird
20:40:22 <ubuntu-nathan> ???????
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20:42:35 <sladegen> cwazy russians... http://www.intelib.org/intro.html
20:42:45 <gnomon> Well, you'll need to choose an NNTP server.  I use Motzarella, which recently renamed itself to Eternal September.
20:43:38 <gnomon> ubuntu-nathan, you may want to check out http://www.eternal-september.org
20:44:07 <ubuntu-nathan> thanks!!
20:45:10 <gnomon> No problem.  There are also the many, many other mailing lists that are over at Gmane: http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=scheme
20:45:29 <gnomon> Good luck!  Don't get discouraged!
20:45:40 <sladegen> or use slrn... if you're really that ubuntu.
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20:50:19 <ubuntu-nathan> i use ubuntu, but in the notebook
20:50:31 <ubuntu-nathan> i'm in the desktop now
20:50:36 <ubuntu-nathan> that uses Windows
20:53:31 <klutometis> ubuntu-nathan: oh, i'm sorry; did you just say that you use ubuntu?
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21:11:11 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
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21:18:59 <ubuntu-nathan> but what i have to put in the NNTP field
21:19:21 <leppie> your isp's NNTP server
21:19:22 <ubuntu-nathan> to subscribe comp.lang.scheme
21:19:40 <ubuntu-nathan> isp NNTP
21:19:42 <ubuntu-nathan> ?????
21:19:45 <ubuntu-nathan> what is this
21:19:48 <ubuntu-nathan> ???
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21:22:39 <klutometis> ubuntu-nathan: why not just use google groups?
21:23:51 <klutometis> ubuntu-nathan: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/topics
21:26:40 <ubuntu-nathan> because i like it in my outlook
21:26:57 <ubuntu-nathan> what is the NNTP
21:26:58 <ubuntu-nathan> ?????????
21:27:11 <ubuntu-nathan> to use in outlook
21:27:12 <ubuntu-nathan> ????
21:28:27 <ubuntu-nathan> the NNTP adress????
21:32:40 <masm> Yes.
21:37:09 <ubuntu-nathan> what i have to type there????
21:39:35 <jonrafkind> just keep whaming the ? key
21:40:06 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
21:40:42 <jonrafkind> ok
21:41:33 <ubuntu-nathan> but about the NNTP
21:41:43 <ubuntu-nathan> what i have to type?
21:41:54 <ubuntu-nathan> in the NNTP field?
21:41:58 <ubuntu-nathan> of outlook
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21:43:56 <ubuntu-nathan> what i have  to type?
21:45:35 <ubuntu-nathan> someone?
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21:46:16 <Elly> I think you need a greater depth of help than this channel is able to provide
21:46:38 <ubuntu-nathan> what channel can help me with this?
21:46:39 <Elly> try contacting your ISP's tech support to ask if they run an NNTP server?
21:46:54 <ubuntu-nathan> channel?
21:47:30 <Elly> I doubt that your ISP has a support channel
21:50:14 <ubuntu-nathan> ISP???
21:50:30 <Elly> internet service provider
21:50:36 <Elly> the company that connects you to the internet
21:50:41 <ubuntu-nathan> hum
21:51:49 <ubuntu-nathan> but what is the NNTP server for comp.lang.scheme
21:51:51 <ubuntu-nathan> ?
21:52:00 <Elly> newsgroups do not have NNTP servers
21:52:00 <ubuntu-nathan> you know?
21:52:11 <ubuntu-nathan> what is a NNTP??
21:52:22 <Elly> an NNTP server has a mirror of some newsgroups on it; you configure your mail client to connect to an NNTP server, and it can pull down some of those groups
21:52:34 <Elly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NNTP
21:52:53 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
21:52:54 <ubuntu-nathan> thanks!
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22:07:25 <ubuntu-nathan> we have a Nabble PLT Scheme community?
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22:11:23 <masm> No. You should start one.
22:11:59 <ubuntu-nathan> yes
22:12:14 <ubuntu-nathan> i want to start some communitty
22:12:33 <ubuntu-nathan> that i can be sucesfull
22:12:53 <Elly> what's Nabble?
22:13:05 <ubuntu-nathan> http://www.nabble.com/
22:13:20 <ubuntu-nathan> it's a group of things
22:13:25 <ubuntu-nathan> very good things
22:16:29 <ubuntu-nathan> check it out!
22:19:14 <Elly> we already have a mailing list
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22:22:03 <ubuntu-nathan> wait
22:22:14 <ubuntu-nathan> i'm creating another thing
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22:42:12 <ubuntu-nathan> PLT Scheme have an Wiki?
22:43:09 <ubuntu-nathan> masm: PLT Scheme have an Wiki?
22:43:13 <ubuntu-nathan> Elly: PLT Scheme have an Wiki?
22:43:17 <ubuntu-nathan> have?
22:43:37 <ubuntu-nathan> because i've created one!
22:43:44 <ubuntu-nathan> http://scheme.wikispaces.com/
22:44:00 <Elly> there is already a scheme wiki, although it is not devoted to PLT scheme: http://community.schemewiki.org/
22:44:01 <ubuntu-nathan> check it out
22:44:11 <Elly> PLT has its own (large) documentation library, though
22:44:17 <ubuntu-nathan> hum
22:44:45 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
22:45:20 <ubuntu-nathan> every time that i try to do something, someone already have made
22:45:25 <ubuntu-nathan> hum
22:45:37 <Elly> strange how that works
22:45:45 <Elly> it is probably because making a wiki is easy :P
22:46:04 <Elly> a lot of the things the scheme community "needs" (or really, that multiple people want) already exist because, well, people wanted them
22:46:19 <ubuntu-nathan> hum
22:46:20 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
22:46:43 <ubuntu-nathan> that is something that scheme dont have?
22:46:56 <Elly> what?
22:47:01 <masm> Do you have a Scheme Group in your town?
22:47:29 <ubuntu-nathan> no
22:47:38 <masm> There you go. Create one.
22:47:45 <ubuntu-nathan> in Brazil we dont have so much scheme developers
22:48:09 <Elly> go spread the word!
22:48:19 <ubuntu-nathan> but how?
22:48:27 <masm> One more reason to create a group: so you can grow a community.
22:48:37 <masm> How? Gently.
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22:49:17 <ubuntu-nathan> ok
22:49:29 <ubuntu-nathan> i'm going try!
22:50:33 <ubuntu-nathan> Scheme have an Podcast or RSS feed??
22:51:25 <ubuntu-nathan> masm: have???
22:53:12 <Elly> what would a "scheme RSS feed" mean?
22:53:28 <masm> No. Two more thing you can create.
22:54:10 <ubuntu-nathan> yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:54:35 <ubuntu-nathan> I'm going to create an RSS feed for Scheme!!!!!!!
23:00:08 <masm> Great! Can you also create a Podcast?
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23:04:33 <ubuntu-nathan> yes!!
23:05:48 <ubuntu-nathan> where i can found news about Scheme?
23:10:39 <sladegen> @<http://news.google.com/?q=scheme>?
23:13:12 <masm> Or you can ask here.
23:13:14 <zbigniew> wait, people are still using comp.lang.scheme?  or usenet?
23:14:28 <masm> A bit.
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23:26:09 <sleepydog> ubuntu-nathan: iirc one or two of the Chicken Scheme developers are brazillian
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23:27:53 <ubuntu-nathan> Chicken Scheme?????
23:27:58 <ubuntu-nathan> what is this??
23:28:20 <Elly> another scheme interpreter
23:28:21 <masm> A Scheme for birds to code in.
23:28:24 <sleepydog> ubuntu-nathan: a scheme implementation.
23:28:33 <ubuntu-nathan> hum
23:28:35 <ubuntu-nathan> thanks
23:28:43 <svf> it generates C code
23:28:48 <ubuntu-nathan> because i use DrScheme
23:29:10 <masm> I been living a lie.
23:29:48 <ubuntu-nathan> why?
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23:41:08 <zbigniew> masm: switch to nasm
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23:41:15 <zbigniew> or tasm
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23:53:13 <masm> Note that if you import srfi/1 then you will use remove from it, and given that the arguments are not in the same order as remove from scheme you will lose 2 hours trying to  find the problem. *sigh*
23:54:59 <sleepydog> wait, r5rs doesn't have remove iirc
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