00:00:20 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:30 rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 00:02:31 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:02:34 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 00:04:20 incubot: (let ((ford `(cdr #f))) (set-cdr! ford ford) ford) 00:04:22 Eval 6575 timed out. 00:04:57 (set-car! ford chevy) 00:06:03 Wadler "Well typed programs can't be blamed" links fails to compile... LOI. oooor my ocaml install is borken... not that i use it often. 00:07:07 incubot: (##sys#with-print-length-limit 38 (lambda () (let ((chevy `(cdr #f))) (set-cdr! chevy chevy) (print chevy)))) 00:07:08 (cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr...#t 00:07:09 RageOfThou [i=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1153.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 00:07:16 oh yeah 00:07:44 don't let me catch you trying that with _my_ bot 00:08:17 rudybot__: ghost rudybot 00:08:20 rudybot__: nick rudybot 00:08:20 -!- rudybot__ is now known as rudybot 00:08:26 rudybot: eval (let ((ford `(cdr #f))) (set-cdr! ford ford) ford) 00:08:26 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: set-cdr! in module: 'program 00:08:31 oh yeah 00:08:39 rudybot: eval (let ((ford `(mcdr #f))) (set-mcdr! ford ford) ford) 00:08:40 *offby1: error: set-mcdr!: expects type as 1st argument, given: (mcdr #f); other arguments were: (mcdr #f) 00:08:43 *sigh* 00:08:49 ha ha 00:08:56 incubot: (##sys#with-print-length-limit (+ 38 1) (lambda () (let ((levy `(cdr #f))) (set-cdr! levy levy) (print levy) (void)))) 00:08:56 (cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr cdr...#t 00:09:05 rudybot: eval (let ((ford (mcons 'mcdr #f))) (set-mcdr! ford ford) ford) 00:09:05 *offby1: ; Value: #0={mcdr . #0#} 00:09:10 *offby1* gloats 00:09:15 lol 00:09:24 well yeah if you're gonna cheat 00:09:31 rudybot: init r5rs 00:09:32 *offby1: your r5rs sandbox is ready 00:09:37 rudybot: eval (let ((ford `(cdr #f))) (set-cdr! ford ford) ford) 00:09:38 *offby1: ; Value: #0={cdr . #0#} 00:09:45 *shrug* 00:10:09 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-13-41.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 00:13:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@89.146.179.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:32 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:30 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:20:35 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 00:26:22 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:23 saccade_ [n=saccade@cpe-66-25-188-73.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:48 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-4.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:32:32 Toast [n=Toast@70.40.129.248] has joined #scheme 00:33:59 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@cpe-66-25-188-73.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:36:04 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:40:27 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:48:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jybiubcxlfmmgrsz] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:46 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:48 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:34 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 00:59:56 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 01:02:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 01:04:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:07:20 newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-075-183-040-251.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:11:37 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:13:23 ToxicFrog [n=ToxicFro@206-248-181-74.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:13:57 karlw` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:55 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:28:55 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:17 hm... persistence in multi user dungeons... 01:29:53 I find myself amazed that just dumping the memory of the dungeon every so often seems to actually work. 01:30:43 It's the same strategy as backup tape, eh? 01:32:06 except it's from volatile memory to disk memory, as opposed to from disk memory to a shielded bunker in Arizona. 01:32:53 "We doesn't know and we doesn't want to know; never came here, never come again." --Gollum 01:35:01 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:35:06 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:09 I'm tempted to build a dungeon thing using sql. It'd be easy to do, but probably slow as beans... 01:57:17 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:07:18 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:08:23 -!- RageOfThou [i=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1153.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:31 -!- ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:34 ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 02:12:07 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 02:25:32 karlw`` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:08 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:40:30 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:37 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 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[n=arcfide@99.50.230.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:43 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:10:47 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:58 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 04:17:05 -!- newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-075-183-040-251.triad.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:37:22 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:20 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 05:03:16 I guess I'll just dump the straight objects... group them somehow and make sure to use good locking to prevent writes while dumping. 05:05:00 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 05:10:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:21:08 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-mhmkeaurjsvvlnye] has joined #scheme 05:24:00 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:34:08 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:49 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 05:41:26 Cytrick [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:03 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:48:36 ISoule [n=idris@69.9.119.155] has joined #scheme 05:50:19 -!- ISoule [n=idris@69.9.119.155] has left #scheme 05:58:38 mwuh... why can I suddenly not figure out inheritance 05:58:50 -!- Thren_ [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:37 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.194] has quit [] 06:24:18 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 06:35:01 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 06:37:15 lowlycoder 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13:20:41 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:21:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 13:21:39 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:23:42 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-154-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:15 Toast [n=Toast@69.9.98.83] has joined #scheme 13:24:16 -!- Toast_ [n=Toast@69.9.98.83] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:48 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:28:05 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-104-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 13:29:12 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 13:31:16 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:03 bwright [n=bwright@230.15.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #scheme 13:38:05 Hello 13:38:44 hi 13:40:12 I've made an OpenOffice book from Michele Simionato 's articles "The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland". Is there some interest in it ? 13:43:08 kib2: maybe you submit it to Michele. He has published a PDF file some time ago. 13:46:19 kib2: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/ 13:46:33 kib2: here the PDF: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/TheAdventuresofaPythonistainSchemeland.pdf 13:46:35 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/oog9no 13:49:25 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 13:49:28 mario-goulart: i wasn't aware, thanks. Mine is there (if needed) : http://kib2.free.fr/Scheme/The%20Adventures%20of%20a%20Pythonista%20in%20Schemeland.pdf 13:49:30 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/nxg5mj 13:49:53 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:12 kib2: thank you 13:50:22 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-104-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 13:53:33 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:40 MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-5032.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 13:56:45 kib2: do you like The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland texts? 13:57:56 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:58:00 mario-goulart: yes really! 13:58:56 kib2: nice. I like Michele's idea. I should print the PDF to read it. 13:59:26 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has joined #scheme 13:59:34 mario-goulart: They're ok 13:59:48 mario-goulart: it will be a good lecture in hollidays for me too :) 13:59:48 He uses his own macro system to explain macros, though, which I find annoying 14:00:16 Yes, and it's not a very good macro system either. 14:00:26 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 14:00:29 I don't really know, I didn't bother to read his code 14:00:49 Just the fact that he didn't stick to syntax-rules/syntax-case/defmacro annoys me 14:00:54 He's still new to scheme, and learning about macros, he shouldn't be trying to teach by writing his own system. 14:01:02 Agreed 14:03:01 foof: I remember he used to take part of chicken-users about 5 years ago (I'm not very good with dates though). 14:03:26 He's on ikarus-users now. 14:03:34 *foof* is on all the mailing lists ;) 14:03:44 :) 14:03:48 ... except guile 14:04:15 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-154-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:04:17 I'm on guile's, but not on ikarus'. 14:04:44 foof: does chibi has a mailing list? 14:05:04 Yeah, though I haven't really been using it yet. 14:05:09 have* 14:05:16 http://groups.google.com/group/chibi-scheme 14:05:22 foof: cool 14:05:47 A patch from Felix!? 14:05:58 Does Felix use chibi? :-) 14:06:05 He's helping with the windows port. 14:06:11 neat 14:07:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:07:22 -!- bwright [n=bwright@230.15.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:44 That's pretty funny. Felix is sick of those build problems on windows, but he still has energy to help people out. Very nice. 14:08:09 Yeah, it's nice, I don't even have a windows box to test on. 14:08:24 But chibi is a lot smaller than Chicken, and has zero external dependencies. 14:08:44 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:09:11 What does "zero external dependencies" mean? 14:09:23 Isn't chicken like that? 14:09:41 chicken requires a c compiler 14:09:50 har, har 14:10:04 I suppose chibi does too. 14:10:14 It means nothing but (almost) ANSI C. Chicken needs libdl and libffi at least. 14:10:34 foof: ah, ok. 14:11:02 And it has POSIX and other extended bindings that aren't part of the standard C library, and networking, etc. 14:11:04 afaik chicken doesn't need libffi 14:11:15 It has its own apply hacks written in asm 14:11:18 Doesn't chicken provide an alternative to libffi 14:11:22 yeah 14:11:29 sjamaan: I thought the same. 14:11:39 Well, OK, libdl then. 14:11:43 sorry, applyhook is something else 14:11:50 Chicken 4.0 has gotten a lot smaller. 14:11:51 manyargs it's called, I think 14:11:59 Isn't libdl for eggs only? Or for building chicken itself? 14:12:20 Chicken needs to be linked with libdl to be able to load eggs. 14:12:28 Not just eggs 14:12:37 Chicken can also load arbitrary .so files if you ask it to 14:12:50 (load "foo") will load foo.so over foo.scm, if it exists 14:13:24 Ok, but for building chicken and running it without loading .so files it is not needed, as far as I understand. 14:13:41 yeah, possibly. But I don't think it has a switch to remove that code 14:14:01 you mean building it without -ldl? 14:14:16 and removing the dlopen() etc code 14:14:18 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:14:27 sjamaan: ah, right. Probably not. 14:14:28 If you only build without -ldl, it'll just fail to link 14:14:37 #t 14:14:38 (on certain platforms) 14:15:18 Granted, Chicken is one of the smallest implementations. 14:16:06 really? 14:17:22 In terms of dependencies? Or overall size (for Scheme the language)? 14:17:23 Smaller than Scheme48. 14:17:29 In terms of code size. 14:17:58 I wonder why 14:18:19 I remember seeing a couple of redundancies in the code 14:18:34 The core is relatively simple, and it has no native bignum support. 14:18:46 And Felix said he wanted to join together posixwin and posixunix because they share so much code 14:19:00 ah, right 14:19:24 In other words, Chicken is smaller because it is incomplete... 14:19:40 Riastradh: could you elaborate? 14:19:59 It lacks numeric support. 14:21:08 do you consider numeric support as an extension a serious drawback? 14:21:15 Yes. 14:21:16 The full numeric tower takes a lot to implement. 14:21:20 Personally, yes. 14:21:30 Not merely a drawback; a bug. 14:21:44 Ok, given the specification, it is a bug. 14:22:29 But considering the chicken design, which tries to keep the core simple... 14:22:35 Actually, no. The RnRS do not require support for the full numeric tower. 14:22:55 So why it is a bug? 14:22:59 For n <= 5, right? 14:23:06 Riastradh: The point is to view Chicken as a compiler for a minimal language on top of which you can build more powerful languages. 14:23:18 Yes, chandler. I don't know offhand what the R6RS requires for numeric support. 14:23:54 So, for example, for a long time Felix avoided hygienic macros, relying on plugin-able macro systems. 14:24:24 foof, well, one can view it that way, but it doesn't work very well. Maybe things have gotten better since the module system was introduced, although that seems to have its fair share of bugs too. 14:24:34 The problem is Chicken has a large community where people want a more featureful language, and needed a unified hygienic macro & module system. 14:24:59 Most bugs in the module/macro system have been solved in the upcoming 4.1 release 14:25:03 Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:12 So he was forced to add those. The full numeric tower more-or-less works as an add-on, it's just slow. 14:26:38 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:26:40 foof: how could it be improved? 14:26:53 What, Chicken as a whole? 14:26:53 (without type annotations) 14:27:26 This would be a good topic, but I mean the full numeric support speed. 14:28:48 I think with the new module system, using numbers has become a lot more annoying 14:29:56 sjamaan: why? 14:32:02 $ rlwrap csi -R numbers 14:32:07 #;1> (expt 2 70) 14:32:07 1180591620717411303424 14:32:07 14:32:13 #;2> (module foo () (import scheme) (expt 2 70)) 14:32:13 1.18059162071741e+21 14:32:45 It no longer rewrites the core bindings. 14:33:02 ! 14:36:31 If you import it in a module, you have to list _all_ numerical operations you want to import, and if you want to do it correctly, you have to omit them all from the "scheme" module 14:36:36 TR2N [i=email@89.180.178.141] has joined #scheme 14:37:03 that's annoying. 14:37:03 You can just import everything from the numbers module but you still need to omit them from scheme 14:37:06 yes, very 14:37:23 numbers _could_ still rewrite the core bindings, but currently it doesn't 14:38:09 What if you import a module which uses a numeric operation you don't know and you don't explicitly omit it from scheme? 14:38:32 I don't understand, could you give an example? 14:38:36 It'd use the binding from scheme, I suppose (i.e., no full numeric support). 14:38:56 oh, I think I understand 14:39:12 You'd get a compiler warning saying you're re-importing that identifier 14:39:13 Suppose I don't know a module `bar' I imported uses expt, but I don't know it uses it. 14:39:22 jezz 14:39:27 Let me rewrite. :-) 14:40:10 Suppose I import a module `bar' which uses `expt'. Since I don't know it uses `expt', I won't omit it from scheme. 14:41:01 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:41:10 It would use the non full numeric support binding for expt, right? 14:41:40 Even if I import `numbers'. 14:44:12 You don't have to omit expt if you include bar 14:44:19 bar itself has its own import list 14:44:29 unless you mean bar exports expt too 14:44:58 ("use" is a vague term) 14:45:06 No, considering `bar' just uses `expt' internally. 14:45:09 R6RS requires the full tower 14:45:26 To make it more `modular', why does the SCHEME module even export EXPT? Why not separate the broken numeric routines into a BROKEN-NUMERIC-ROUTINES module separate from the SCHEME module? 14:45:26 mario-goulart: In that case it would import expt from somewhere itself 14:45:43 (Would be better to call it CHICKEN-SCHEME or something, not SCHEME, too.) 14:45:43 mario-goulart: It wouldn't matter what you import, as long as expt imports the right things for it 14:47:42 Riastradh: How is it broken, if you just said yourself that full numeric support is not required by the spec? 14:48:02 sjamaan: you mean "as long as BAR imports the right things"? 14:48:19 mario-goulart: yes, sorry 14:48:38 Can't type coherently, need sleep :) 14:48:42 :-) 14:48:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:09 sjamaan, `broken' is independent from `non-conformant'. Conformant behaviour can be broken, and non-broken behaviour can be non-conformant. 14:49:28 Ok, then how is it broken? 14:49:52 If you forget about numbers, nothing was broken even in Chicken 3 14:50:14 What does it yield for, say, (expt 10 100000)? Does it yield the integer 10^100000, or does it yield some other number? 14:50:19 Numbers made things unstable in chicken 3, but in chicken 4 I don't see a problem besides the annoyance of importing 14:50:32 some other number 14:51:13 Actually, it returns +inf 14:51:44 and that's broken, not? 14:51:55 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:02 What should it do? 14:52:07 That's without the numbers egg. 14:52:10 It should yield the integer 10^100000. 14:52:11 (expt 10.0 100000) => +inf 14:52:25 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 14:52:32 exact arguments must return exact result for most procs 14:53:03 I have to go 14:53:10 there is some word for that 14:53:15 We'll talk about this later, if I remember 14:53:29 alright. See you sjamaan. Have a nice rest. 14:53:39 ty 14:53:41 ttfn! 14:55:05 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-154-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:48 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:05:44 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:06:21 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:32 is there a standard procedure to remove matching items from a list? 15:09:51 delete-matching-items works in MIT scheme but not in r5rs for DrScheme 15:09:57 remv, remq, remp 15:10:08 leppie, thanks 15:11:36 there is filter too 15:13:08 why is it that scheme doesn't allow sequences of procedure calls unless one uses (begin ...)? is this to promote breaking a problem up into subproblems? 15:14:16 How else would you write it, jengle, without BEGIN? 15:14:19 the body of a lambda or let, and most derived forms, allow a sequence 15:15:24 rudybot__: seen grettke 15:15:24 offby1`: grettke was seen joining in/on :#scheme one week, two days ago, and then grettke was seen leaving the channel in/on #scheme one week, two days ago 15:15:28 geez 15:15:33 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 15:15:50 are all the bots here written in scheme? 15:15:53 rudybot__: ghost rudybot 15:15:55 rudybot__: nick rudybot 15:15:56 -!- rudybot__ is now known as rudybot 15:16:00 jengle: it's considered polite 15:16:08 rudybot: eval (banner) 15:16:08 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: banner in module: 'program 15:16:13 *sigh* 15:16:16 rudybot: init scheme 15:16:17 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 15:16:19 rudybot: eval (banner) 15:16:19 *offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.2 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 15:16:49 that's so cool. 15:17:26 rudybot: (define x (list 1 2 3)) 15:17:26 jengle: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 15:17:36 jengle: say "eval" 15:17:41 rudybot: eval (define x (list 1 2 3)) 15:17:46 rudybot: eval x 15:17:46 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3) 15:17:51 rudybot: give jengle x 15:17:51 jengle: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 15:18:01 rudybot: give jengle (reverse x) 15:18:01 jengle: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" 15:18:06 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 15:18:06 jengle: your sandbox is ready 15:18:07 jengle: ; Value: (3 2 1) 15:18:42 offby1, did you write rudybot? 15:20:06 jengle: There are a number of forms that allow bodies of multiple expressions. 15:20:26 I think `let` might, for instance. 15:21:26 TimMc, but nothing that can be given a name, correct? 15:21:57 jengle: Hmm? 15:22:07 jengle: I wrote most of it, but eli wrote a lot of the stuff behind "eval" 15:22:31 jengle: No, some of the bots here are witten in Common Lisp, and are shared with #lisp. 15:22:54 offby1, i'm impressed 15:27:55 jengle: we aim to please 15:29:08 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 15:35:25 incubot: do you share offby1's aims? 15:35:28 I really wonder their aims. They produce for the community without interacting with them. 15:35:54 *sladegen* interacts with offby1's teeth. 15:36:21 dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet01.porta.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:44 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:32 hey 15:42:41 gimme; I was gonna throw those at mbishop 15:43:53 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:49 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 15:47:48 incubot: When the robot revolution comes, will you abandon us? 15:47:51 It's actually quite amazing that it works in Chicken. It will work in most interpreters with loose module semantics though. 15:48:12 Let's coax a scheme bot to mate with the CL bot. 15:48:44 specbot: doesn't incubot look handsome in that bike-racing gear? 15:49:41 incubot: I don't think specbot cares for you. 15:49:44 who cares about gsoc 15:53:41 offby1: you're asking the wrong bot 15:53:51 try asking minion 15:56:59 why, is minion known to be a gold-digger? 15:57:07 I hear incubot has a sizeable inheritance 15:58:10 minion: are you a gold-digger? 15:58:11 yes 15:58:14 see 15:58:19 minion: will you marry incubot? 15:58:20 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 15:58:24 Aw. 16:01:07 geez, he's not THAT ugly 16:04:58 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-197.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:05:32 chandler: I think minion is afraid of commitment. 16:07:55 unusual in a woman 16:07:55 wait. 16:08:00 which is the boy again? 16:08:29 I'm a boy, I'm a boy, but my Ma won't admit it 16:08:48 if he says he is, he gets it. 16:28:35 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:36:12 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-28-37.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 16:37:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-cgxwtyrysbvzcrqm] has joined #scheme 16:38:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-cgxwtyrysbvzcrqm] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-aguiddlrviqnrzav] has joined #scheme 16:42:43 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-169-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:47:03 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-169-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:54:27 -!- chylli` [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-197.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:19 I interpreted that as *minion's* self-loathing, not an aversion to incubot 16:58:54 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:42 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:03:49 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #scheme 17:06:00 -!- Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:31 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-169-181.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:18:47 -!- Toast [n=Toast@69.9.98.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:55 Toast [n=Toast@64.111.87.215] has joined #scheme 17:21:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:33:10 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:10 -!- Toast [n=Toast@64.111.87.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:14 Toast [n=Toast@64.111.87.215] has joined #scheme 17:34:22 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-104-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:22 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 17:41:08 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 17:45:00 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:45:58 Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:24 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:49:22 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-104-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 17:50:29 rudybot: that's The Who! 17:50:29 mario-goulart: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 17:51:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:57:18 ravenex [n=ravenex@209-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has joined #scheme 18:07:25 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-104-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:04 Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #scheme 18:28:48 hi 18:29:35 i wrote a procedure MAKE-NUMBER-LIST, and i'm just wondering if there's any better way to write the inner iteration: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84517 18:31:19 i was originally going to use a call to BEGIN to set variables 'a' and 'b', and call the iteration, but i want to avoid using set! if i don't have to... 18:31:47 instead of DEFINE you can use a named LET 18:33:00 soupdragon, will that let me change the variables a and b without using SET? 18:33:14 try it I dunno 18:33:22 why do you want to change them? 18:36:21 jengle: i am asking you 18:43:27 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:43:58 leppie, i want to decrement b until (< b a) 18:44:26 it just seems sort of redundant to have 2 a's and b's 18:44:36 it's not :) 18:44:47 it is .. 18:45:21 soupdragon: you would still have to wrap it in a procedure 18:45:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84517#1 18:46:18 well that code is wrong but it's easy to fix 18:46:57 (and (make-number-list -1000000 1000000) #t) => boom! 18:47:23 leppie, good point :) 18:47:25 but the other one doesn't? 18:47:37 nope soupdragon 18:47:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:45 for my purposes, both inputs are positive 18:48:26 *gnomon* sighs 18:48:28 jengle: you will hit a problem if the difference is anything bigger than 100k in most schemes 18:48:38 If only all constraints were so precise, and so absolute! 18:49:22 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:49:27 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:49:35 soupdragon: the earlier version clearly uses tail recursion 18:49:52 anything that doesn't use tail recursion crashes 18:50:03 That's nonsense, soupdragon. 18:50:07 nope, I never said that 18:50:29 sometimes you have some safe gaurentee 18:50:45 like most AST's wont be 1000's of levels deep 18:51:41 I say most, as I have hit a similar issue before 18:52:09 a body with 1000's of exprs 18:57:56 jengle: just to satisfy your curiousity, if you wrote the same thing in a named let, it would probably still expand to the same expression as what the define version would 18:59:25 leppie, i think you're right 18:59:29 ugh. this thing just gobbles up memory: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84520 18:59:59 oooo 19:00:01 i'm trying to write an implementation of eratosthenes's sieve 19:00:27 you should use a 'generator' instead 19:00:37 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:48 leppie, why? 19:00:56 Ack. For some reason, inner define never gets any easier to read for me. 19:01:53 jengle: make a procedure, that will return a procedure, that will return a decremented/incremented number every time it is called 19:01:53 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-mhmkeaurjsvvlnye] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:02:51 leppie, you're talking about make-number-list, right? 19:03:01 yes 19:03:29 you dont want a huge list like that hanging around 19:03:53 you just want the next number 19:04:31 you probably want to get rid of those set! 's too :) 19:05:22 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:06:43 make sieve and primes arguments of the sift-iter proc 19:07:20 that will save you a few lines already :] 19:07:45 leppie, the way i wrote it, the the first number of the current number list is the next prime 19:08:10 (= (length list) 0) == (null? list) 19:08:45 instead of doing that begin, you pass the 1st 2 expressions to the proc again, simple as that 19:11:37 leppie, brilliant 19:11:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 19:13:01 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84520#1 19:15:49 don't do it tail recursive 19:15:51 it is not any better, just written nicer 19:16:09 if you use a stream I mean 19:16:32 soupdragon: dont deny me my 1 tail call! 19:16:43 (ok I lie, there is 2) 19:18:09 jengle: it will take some time, but once you get used to it, it's natural 19:19:14 just think of it as what must change the next time around, and then you loop till you reach your stop condition 19:19:55 have a look at named let too 19:21:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84520#2 <-- named let version 19:22:09 Ah! I can read that. 19:22:18 :) 19:22:25 well, except for the binding forms scrunched on the same line. 19:23:27 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet01.porta.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84520#3 19:24:27 :) 19:24:59 Don't make me rewrite this in CPS! 19:25:02 With trampolines! 19:25:05 And then converted to ANF! 19:25:16 then SSA and back again 19:26:42 now jengle, instead of doing (car sieve), write that generator procedure 19:26:53 -!- ravenex [n=ravenex@209-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:08 leppie, if i do that, i will be writing a prime number generator 19:27:29 or actually, that wont help much 19:27:33 look 19:27:38 looking at the code 19:27:47 sorry, i did not try understand it :) 19:28:29 but putting the prime list and number list in the procedure definition really helps, thanks 19:28:31 there is probably a nice way 19:28:41 no problem :) 19:29:33 chandler: do you put your bindings each on a newline/ 19:29:35 ? 19:29:47 Always. 19:30:33 the first one too? or do you align them with the first? 19:31:17 given more than 1 binding 19:31:56 chandler pasted "indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84525 19:32:06 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.178.141] has left #scheme 19:32:17 basically, I hit enter at the end of each binding group 19:32:23 oh ok :) 19:32:26 the first binding is always on the same line as the binding form 19:32:36 if it's a named let, that goes on the same line too 19:32:44 then first binding, newline, second binding, etc. 19:33:04 I have no idea how to indent anything, always 2 spaces except with IF :) 19:33:06 With this style, I don't need funny squared-off parens in order to be able to read the binding form :-) 19:33:20 I do use those :) 19:33:24 That's your editor's job. I just add newlines at the right point. 19:33:41 but only for cond,case,syntax-case,syntax-rules 19:34:08 I seem to recall that you've written your own editor. You might want to spend some time with Emacs, DrScheme, or Edwin to get a feel for canonical indentation. 19:34:21 (I'm assuming Edwin does a reasonable job of indentation by default.) 19:34:49 yeah, I have been trying to figure out WTF I have to do to get a keyboard hook in Visual Studio... 19:35:11 Ack. Why not just plug your own editor into it? 19:35:14 seems it needs like 200k of boilerplate code... 19:35:28 I have not hacked on that for ages :( 19:36:10 Or find something else to plug into it. Anything but the default. 19:36:14 If only I had a user or 2 (preferably demanding ones) 19:36:51 hi all, do anyone know if PSD is avalaible for download? where can we get it from? thanks 19:37:06 PSD? 19:37:22 pre-scheme-defense 19:38:02 PSD? The non-portable non-Scheme non-debugger from SLIB or something? 19:40:09 jengle_ [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has joined #scheme 19:40:33 Pants Sliding Down? 19:40:44 minion: what does PSD stand for? 19:40:45 Pterygopharyngeal Stomapodiform Druidism 19:40:51 Well, there you go. 19:41:17 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:20 http://fresh01.co.za/2008/12/05/scruffy-psd-available-for-download/ 19:41:20 minion: where can I download PSD from? 19:41:21 behind you! 19:41:47 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 19:42:20 The second Google result for `psd scheme' seems to be relevant. 19:45:30 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-169-181.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:47:52 Happy 10th Annual Sysadmin Appreciation Day everyone! http://sysadminday.com 19:48:51 PSD isn't from SLIB. 19:51:41 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:51:50 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:24 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:59:15 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:34 incubot: I got PTSD from SLIB 20:06:37 It's not defined in scm/slib anyway 20:09:33 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsled140.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:38 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has joined #scheme 20:20:50 hi 20:21:04 the following should remove all multiples of 2: (remove (lambda (x) (zero? (remainder x 2))) (list 1 2 3 4)) 20:21:15 it has worked in the past, but for some reason it is not working now 20:21:21 i'm using drscheme 20:21:42 jengle you should define a procedure called multiple-of? 20:22:14 soupdragon, yes yes, but i'm concerned with why remove is refusing to work 20:22:36 have you written that procedure? 20:23:20 soupdragon, no, it's provided 20:23:34 wouldnt it be easier to use even? 20:24:12 leppie, not in this case, no. 20:24:22 why? 20:25:22 leppie, because i'm not only removing multiples of two. i just entered the above as an example. 20:25:41 ahh ok, sorry :) 20:26:01 try using filter 20:26:17 its the opposite of remove 20:27:26 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 20:28:02 leppie, perfect. thanks again. 20:29:41 r5rs remove 20:29:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for remove. 20:29:52 my sieve program finally works. 20:30:08 it doesn't take very long for it to find all the primes up to 100,000 20:30:13 cool 20:31:06 using the generator appraoch should be a nice exercise 20:31:42 leppie, i want to be able to calculate the nth prime 20:31:43 then you can run it for days/years perhaps 20:31:44 (prime n) 20:32:25 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-98-227.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 20:32:26 using the sieve method, i have to specify a limit 20:33:07 and the last value is the nth? 20:33:51 or is that the upper bound? 20:34:52 the upper bound 20:35:02 ok 20:38:12 (memp proc list) "Proc should not mutate list." <-- from R6RS. Just how is it possible to mutate the list? 20:38:52 dysinger [n=dysinger@gprsinternet04.porta.net] has joined #scheme 20:38:54 memp? 20:39:30 well pretty much all of the procs defined in (rnrs lists (6)) says that, does not make sense to me 20:39:37 http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_node_chap_3 20:39:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/l32tm8 20:39:58 leppie: (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (memp (lambda (e) (set-cdr! l (list 3 4)) #t) l)) 20:40:17 ahhhhh 20:40:38 didnt think of that :) 20:41:01 which is a good thing (i think) 20:41:20 As a user, it is! As an implementor, it isn't. 20:41:23 that it didnt cross my mind to do something arb like that 20:41:36 yeah i know :( 20:43:12 i never use those procs anyways, maybe only a few uses in all my code 20:44:21 (love jengle scheme) 20:44:42 in light of that wouldn't an anti-lexical lambda be useful? one that doesn't capture environment at all? 20:46:36 incubot: giggles? 20:46:39 Orwell once remarked that one reason fascism never took off in Britain was because the sight of a goose-stepping soldier would prompt your average Englishman to giggle. Someone is now silencing the giggles. And our world is a lot creepier because of it. 20:47:30 sladegen: I'm not sure how that relates; after all, you can certainly pass something to `memp' that isn't a literal lambda form at the point of the `memp' call. 20:49:06 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-98-227.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 20:49:28 Am I the only one who reads `memp' as a sort of diminutive for `mump', as in `measles &'? 20:49:56 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-98-227.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 20:50:17 and one can side-effect passed in list, too. silly me... what would be the values of mentioned, but not captured, variables anyway... silly me. 20:50:29 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:49 *sladegen* slaps himeslf with a trout. 20:51:01 *gnomon* slaps a trout with sladegen 20:52:53 -!- Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has left #scheme 20:53:48 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-211-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:29 but it would be useful in a bewildering sort of way: instead of "unbound variable" one would get "bound variable" error ;) 20:56:59 Ooh. That's slightly more tricky. Writing a macro that has the effect of treating its body as being in the top-level environment is not difficult, but adding errors for bound variables is more difficult. 20:58:50 i bet it would. but after thinking about it i can't think of a situation where it would be useful... anywayz. 20:59:24 *zbigniew* digs a pony in the kitchen with Dinah 20:59:42 Actually, I'm sure I've used LOAD-TIME-VALUE for this in Common Lisp before. 20:59:55 zbigniew, you can celebrate anything you want 21:01:33 is it plausible to do graphics programming with scheme? 21:03:25 no, it's text terminal strictly in scheme. pining for the svga future forbidden. 21:03:56 lol 21:04:03 shucks. 21:05:54 -!- jengle_ [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:21 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:41 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["dinner break"] 21:08:44 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:11:21 sladegen: >__> 21:12:02 jengle: Grab DrScheme and play with the world.ss teachpack. 21:13:20 chandler pasted "block-lexical-bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84531 21:13:28 sladegen: ^^ 21:13:39 "x: bound variable in: x" 21:14:24 TimMc: what does ">__>" mean? 21:16:29 chandler: ow, shucks, i do hope you had that code lying around. i don't even use or know syntax-case. 21:16:52 Nah. It wasn't that hard to put together. 21:17:12 chandler annotated #84531 "slightly cleaned up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84531#1 21:18:29 sladegen: It's just an emoticon 21:19:02 emoticon? as in "get the f... outta here"? 21:19:22 Naw, it's eyes looing to the side. 21:19:26 *looking 21:21:35 sladegen: Damn, I can't really explain it. 21:22:02 I saw it once and immediately understood. *shrug* 21:23:38 TimMc: no problem, i once thought "you have no sense of humour" meant "you're inhumane" 21:23:48 *Riastradh* blinks. 21:23:51 What's with the CWCC there, chandler? 21:27:10 Whoops, is that still there? 21:28:53 There was an escape continuation there from a blind alley I went down, and it sort of hung around. 21:30:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:30:54 chandler annotated #84531 "Just to make Riastradh happy..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84531#2 21:31:06 Why's it in CPS? 21:31:08 v/forbidden/verboten 21:31:18 s even 21:31:24 the ironing 21:31:54 Adamant: Are you talking to someone in this channel? I'm confused. 21:32:28 chandler: sladegen's SVGA comment 21:32:32 Oh. 21:32:53 it was a bit unclear 21:33:05 Riastradh: No good reason; I tend to write in CPS because I tend to think in CPS. 21:36:45 ISoule [n=idris@69.9.119.155] has joined #scheme 21:40:11 Also, I tend to bounce back and forth between CL and Scheme, and many CL implementations have significantly smaller stack limits than heap limits, so I naturally turn to CPS when writing anything non-tail-recursive. 21:40:30 I'm not sure if any common Schemes have limitations like this or not. 21:42:27 Would they be Scheme in this case? 21:42:31 syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 21:42:35 -!- syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has left #scheme 21:43:47 I don't see why not. RnRS doesn't say anything about the number of non-tail-calls that must be supported, to the best of my knowledge. 21:43:54 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.186.236.169] has joined #scheme 21:44:48 chandler: right. I'm getting insane. 21:45:10 Would anyone care to explain what the R6RS LIbraries document means when it says that the 'write!' procedure used when creating a custom binary output port should send an end-of-file object when it is passed a count of zero? Does this mean that it should send #\x4 on UNIX and the equivalent CTRL+Z character on Windows machines? 21:45:55 rudybot: eval (end-of-file) 21:45:56 sladegen: your sandbox is ready 21:45:56 sladegen: error: reference to undefined identifier: end-of-file 21:46:11 rudybot: eval (eof-object) 21:46:12 arcfide: your sandbox is ready 21:46:12 arcfide: error: reference to undefined identifier: eof-object 21:46:22 rudybot: eval #!eof 21:46:23 arcfide: error: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: # in any of: (#) 21:46:35 Weird. 21:46:52 rudybot: init r6rs 21:46:52 chandler: error: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) in: (#%module-begin) 21:46:55 i would assume eof-object was preserved from r5rs. 21:46:56 Heh. 21:47:16 At any rate, according to the end-of-file documentation in the R6RS document, the end of file object isn't actually something that can be used, it has no reader syntax, and isn't even really a character or anything. 21:47:24 rudybot: init r6rs (import (rnrs base (6))) 21:47:24 chandler: expecting: init [] 21:47:27 Doh. 21:48:39 rudybot: init #!r6rs 21:48:39 arcfide: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: |#!r6rs| 21:48:54 rudybot: init module 21:48:54 chandler: error: module: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "module" in any of: (#) in: module 21:48:56 rudybot: init #lang r6rs 21:48:57 arcfide: expecting: init [] 21:48:57 rudybot: init scheme 21:48:58 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:49:00 sladegen: you mean `eof-object?'? 21:49:03 rudybot: eval #!r6rs 21:49:03 chandler: error: eval:1:0: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) in: (#%module-begin) 21:49:06 mario-goulart: No. 21:49:16 rudybot: eval #!r6rs (import (rnrs base (6))) 21:49:31 rudybot: eval (cons 1 2) 21:49:31 chandler: ; Value: (1 . 2) 21:49:36 Hm. 21:49:41 mario-goulart: less or more, mostly i'm insanoconfused. 21:49:45 rudybot: init scheme 21:49:46 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:49:54 mario-goulart: According to the R6RS, the object returned by (eof-object) has no external representation because it is not a datum value. Thus, I can't write it to a data stream as is desired for the 'write!' function of 'make-custom-binary-output-port'. 21:50:05 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 21:50:18 rudybot: eval #!r6rs (import (rnrs base (6)) (for (rnrs base (6)) expand) (for (rnrs syntax-case (6)) expand)) 21:50:37 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:50:45 rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((foo (make-variable-transformer (lambda (stx) 42)))) foo) 21:50:46 chandler: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: make-variable-transformer in module: 'program 21:51:02 arcfide: I mean regarding to R5RS (" i would assume eof-object was preserved from r5rs.") 21:51:10 Aw. I guess it really doesn't work. 21:51:26 rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((foo (make-variable-transformer (lambda (stx) 42)))) foo) (let-syntax ((foo (make-variable-transformer (lambda (stx) 42)))) foo) 21:51:26 chandler: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: make-variable-transformer in module: 'program 21:51:30 er, whoops 21:51:46 AFAIK, eof-object is not defined in R5RS 21:51:59 rudybot: eval #!r6rs (import (rnrs base (6)) (for (rnrs base (6)) expand) (for (rnrs syntax-case (6)) expand))(let-syntax ((foo (make-variable-transformer (lambda (stx) 42)))) foo) 21:52:00 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.37] has joined #scheme 21:52:15 I think I'm just confusing rudybot. 21:54:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:55:08 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:55:25 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has joined #scheme 21:55:48 mario-goulart: well it should, and if it doesn't from the sound of r6rs "write!" spec it should be inherited by r6rs. eot. 21:55:52 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:34 incubot: (eof-object? #!eof) 21:56:34 #t 21:57:10 incubot: eof-object? #!eof 21:57:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:13 they are defined here; http://community.schemewiki.org/cgi-bin/scheme.cgi?object-oriented-programming 21:57:18 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/l7qx8n 21:57:33 incubot: (eof-object #\eof) 21:57:34 Error: unknown named character: "eof" 21:58:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:10 incubot: (eof-object? #\end-of-file) 21:58:10 Error: unknown named character: "end-of-file" 21:58:34 incubot: ^D 21:59:20 does eot mean end of topic? 22:01:21 mario-goulart: end-of-thought 22:01:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-transmission_character 22:02:02 sladegen: ah, ok. 22:02:10 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 22:02:51 *mario-goulart* goes home 22:03:26 Have a nice weekend, guys. See you. 22:03:40 mario-goulart: perhaps it would have been more communicative if i just told arcfide that there should be portable end-of-file object in r6rs if it worded write! spec as this. 22:05:37 The specification talks about sending an eof object to the binary sink, though. I don't think defining what (eof-object) returns helps with interpreting that. 22:05:48 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:56 In fact I'm as lost as arcfide on this point. 22:06:11 -!- q[mrw] [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:36 *sladegen* punches r6rs some more. 22:07:03 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:13 It's really saying something that there are parts of R6RS that were even less well thought out than the library system. 22:09:14 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 22:09:58 -!- ISoule [n=idris@69.9.119.155] has left #scheme 22:10:11 chandler: Exactly, I think that R6RS has made a mistake here, but I'll send it into the wild a bit more to find out what they meant. 22:10:27 chandler: I think the I/O system could be the least tested part of R6RS. 22:11:10 Hopefully people have learned their lesson by now with regards to designing reports on Scheme that are really essays in new, untested features. 22:12:20 Hopefully, if this doesn't kill the process alltogether. 22:13:48 q[mrw] [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has joined #scheme 22:14:47 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:18:19 does anyone know how to make debian install mzscheme without installing all of the X libraries? 22:18:33 I'm working on a very space-constrained system and do not have space for all of them 22:19:29 oh, never mind, guile is smaller 22:19:33 I will use that 22:20:38 Elly: You rat! :-P 22:20:44 Elly: Why, oh Why! 22:21:03 Elly: Why do you torture us so? Guile!? *spits for dramatic effect* 22:21:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 22:21:37 arcfide: because apt wanted to install 224MB of packages for PLT, which is just over 80% of the free space on the entire system 22:21:54 Elly: Are your only choices PLT Scheme and Guile? 22:21:59 no 22:22:05 those are just the two I've used before 22:22:38 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:22:42 Elly: Broaden your horizons. :-) 22:22:57 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 22:23:12 arcfide: is there a reason not to use guile? 22:23:56 Sure: it might annoy wingo! 22:24:14 Elly: Um, from my understanding, it has a strange evaluation model that causes bugs where there should be none in a Scheme system, and I am sure others can share their horror stories. It's just not among those systems recommended by people who care about compliant Schemes. 22:24:31 arcfide, wingo's been busily dragging Guile into the modern world. 22:24:40 gnomon: Heheh, how is that going? 22:25:09 can you recommend something else small and solid? 22:25:12 Does Guile have a decent package management system yet? I can't remember what its state is now. 22:25:12 2.x release is "imminent"... 22:25:34 Elly: chicken? scheme48? scsh? gambit? 22:25:38 Scheme48 is nice and small 22:25:48 Elly: For small and solid, I use Chez Scheme, and it is quite small. Petite Chez has RPMs that can be Debianized quite easily. Others would recommend Chicken and Gambit, among others. 22:26:10 ubuntu arm packages are a definite plus 22:26:35 ARM? As in the CPU ARM? 22:26:47 yes 22:26:55 "dpkg-cashe search scheme"? or some such? 22:27:02 cache... 22:27:04 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:10 I think it's apt-cache. 22:27:19 it is 22:27:23 right... no debian prompt around. 22:27:30 arcfide: I just got one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SheevaPlug 22:28:03 Elly: Is this what you want to get Scheme onto? 22:28:07 yes 22:28:26 There is Armpit. 22:28:31 http://armpit.sourceforge.net/ 22:28:55 I think you misunderstand how small of a system this is 22:29:02 it has 512MB of RAM and 512MB of flash 22:29:07 it is running ubuntu right now :P 22:29:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:30:06 Scheme48 works fine on ARM 22:30:08 Chicken might work, and gambit might work as well. Scheme48 I am less sure about, and Chez doesn't have an ARM port (unless you want to pay for it). 22:30:14 so does Chicken i think 22:30:37 I bet SCM would work too, but I think some people here aren't fond of SCM either. 22:30:46 It is very low overhead. 22:31:33 512MB RAM is more than enough for everything. the 512MB of flash is a bit of a pain 22:31:39 yes 22:31:41 \forall x \in Scheme : \exists y \in #scheme : not-fond-of(y, x) 22:31:49 it has a 1GB USB stick as /home 22:32:07 I am currently dist-upgrading it; then I will install scheme48 22:32:11 Elly: only a problem if you use Ubuntu, many other distros can fit into 512 MB fine 22:32:25 ecraven: I mean, the installed system right now is 150MB or so 22:32:25 ecraven: With SCM I actually hit a stack overflow issue, that's never happened with me on any other Scheme. To me, that's a bit scary. 22:32:29 so it is still fine :P 22:32:32 a complete plt 4.2.1 install tree for i386 linux is about 240MB. most of that is collects 22:33:01 ecraven: that's with the base ubuntu system + build-essential + svn + vim 22:33:09 I never tried SCM, I like Scheme48 too much :) 22:33:24 Elly: that surprisingly small, I'd have thought Ubuntu would be bigger.. good :) 22:33:31 ecraven: it's ubuntu, not ubuntu-desktop 22:33:38 ubuntu-desktop's default install is something like 2GB 22:33:49 a stock ubuntu install is just kernel, coreutils, bash, and apt 22:33:54 In other words, Ubuntu sans all of Ubuntu until its Debian. 22:34:11 except with the ubuntu repos, yes 22:34:46 I'm not sure I understand why someone would go for Ubuntu if they wanted to scrap off everything that makes Ubuntu Ubuntu. 22:34:56 Bravo for doing it. :-) But... 22:35:10 because I believe their repos are better-maintained and better-QCed than the debian ones 22:36:07 elly: from looking at the plt makefiles, you should be able to build just the non-gui mzscheme executable (not the mred one) to avoid x 22:36:23 that's good, but there is no convenient way to make apt do that 22:36:24 because ubuntu is just a word that means "i can't configure my slackware". 22:36:28 at least, not that I know of 22:36:37 sladegen: or "I enjoy dependency resolution" 22:36:51 the debian packaging of plt used to have separate "mzscheme" and "drscheme" packages 22:36:57 it still does 22:37:02 *arcfide* uses Slackware right now. 22:37:02 the mzscheme package pulls in X and friends 22:37:07 gasp 22:37:10 Slackware is amazingly easy, people give it a bad rap. 22:37:18 man -k rebuild | grep deb 22:37:38 *cough* FreeBSD *cough* 22:37:43 if you want to tweak the debian packaging, you can add a patch to disable building of x 22:37:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:38:00 Elly: You'll be happy with Scheme48, it's a good system. 22:38:10 the only hard part is figuring out which collects you don't want 22:38:40 Elly: you mean "I enjoy automatic dependency resolution"... personally "I do enjoy dependency resolution, too". 22:38:57 for the collects, i suspect that you can save lots of space by installing only the compiled, without the source 22:39:06 oh, and the biggest win is not installing the docs 22:39:27 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:31 btw, why do you want scheme on this sheevaplug? 22:42:41 because I like scheme :P 22:44:15 looks like you could use it to make a wireless server for a usb-connected printer or storage 22:44:31 er, network 22:44:58 I could 22:45:00 they should do one with wifi, or a second ethernet nic. then you could do bridges, firewall routers, etc 22:45:15 I am planning to use it as a low-footprint (size-wise) IRC session host 22:45:25 heh 22:45:44 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 22:48:21 (scheme-bot-net-here-we-come) 22:51:04 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:37 carolyn [n=carlyn@dsl-26-84.utaonline.at] has joined #scheme 23:01:08 lowlycod1r [n=x@DNab438946.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:03:00 ankou [n=quassel@p57A6F659.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:53 Yes! It works! 23:12:59 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:53 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:19:01 andy_ [n=andy@87.114.148.38.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:26 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:21:16 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:22:37 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 23:23:00 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:49 -!- papna [n=mike@97-91-168-194.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #scheme 23:29:04 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 23:30:22 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-98-227.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 23:35:19 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit ["time for my annual (need it or not) rebooting of emacs"] 23:36:03 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 23:38:13 If you were trying to receive some data from a socket (in a case where you would normally have used recvfrom(2)), would you prefer for the buffer of the return data to be created for you automatically, or would you prefer to provide the buffer instead, explicitly as an argument? 23:40:13 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 23:40:47 -!- andy_ [n=andy@87.114.148.38.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [] 23:41:42 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:52 a-s [n=user@92.81.135.104] has joined #scheme 23:48:53 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:09 Seems it is easy to implement Lambda Calculus in Lisp but not the inverse......e.g. eq and quote don't seem to be *trivial* in Lambda Calculus right? 23:49:22 agree? 23:49:41 i can't see how to do quote function in LC 23:50:14 seb-: You don't exactly implement lambda calculus in Scheme, it's just something that is there from the nature of there being a superset Lambda around. 23:50:24 arcfide: yes 23:50:37 arcfide: OTOH..doing scheme in LC ain't trivial 23:50:47 seb-: Implementing just about anything in pure Lambda Calculus is difficult. 23:51:04 arcfide: i got most of it but quote is a bugger 23:51:09 eq too 23:51:17 seb-: What about OPEN-INPUT-FILE? 23:51:17 anything that needs to analyze syntax 23:51:40 arcfide: forgot those for now..that's just side effects :) 23:51:49 seb-: But that exactly the kind of thing that is hard. 23:51:57 seb-: You can't just ignore those. 23:52:33 EQ? requires that you identify elements as being the same elements, how do you do that? tagging? 23:52:55 arcfide: well if you could analyze syntax you could just compare glyphs 23:52:56 I assume that you are building an evaluator? 23:53:01 arcfide: yes 23:53:12 seb-: So then somewhere you must be maintaining the set of bindings, right? 23:53:16 arcfide: i built the LC evaluator...was just curious if could extend to scheme 23:53:42 And somewhere you must be recording objects as being stored somehow, right? You must have some way of referencing objects? 23:53:43 arcfide: my def of eq isn't that complicated...also no names/labels in LC if that is what you mean 23:53:50 From there, you can build a pointer base EQ? 23:54:11 seb-: You can't implement Scheme very well if you don't keep track of scope, definitions, or the like. 23:54:40 arcfide: yea...i give up...was just a curiosity 23:54:48 How does your evaluator evaluate (LET () (DEFINE X 5) (DEFINE Y 6) (IF (EQ? X Y) #t #4))? 23:55:04 s/4/f/ 23:55:27 arcfide: it can't 23:55:31 arcfide: at least not easily 23:55:43 It's possible, though. 23:55:47 arcfide: right 23:56:03 arcfide: i think "possible" might mean literally implementing LC in LC 23:56:15 Huh? 23:56:17 arcfide: the bottom LC then has more control over the top LC 23:56:25 arcfide: LC has no way to get to the syntax 23:56:37 seb-: Your evaluator obviously evaluates soemthing, right? 23:56:44 What is the datastructure that it evaluates? 23:56:45 arcfide: the "virtual LC" would allow bottom LC to access syntax 23:56:55 arcfide: functions 23:56:59 FUNCTIONS??? 23:57:10 seb-: What about handling literal syntax? 23:57:37 Chances are, you'll need to start with an evaluator tha tparses a stream of characters into S-expressions. 23:57:48 Or something similiar. 23:57:58 arcfide: yea 23:58:37 seb-: If you have an LC parser, then you can get to the syntax. 23:59:03 But you aren't going to have some shortcut where you don't have to write a parser and the other components of a proper interpreter. 23:59:27 arcfide: yes but my question was how to implement Scheme in LC without altering the parser/evaluator 23:59:40 seb-: How does that even make sense? 23:59:51 arcfide: i wrote an LC parser/evaluator