00:03:17 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:13:37 -!- ankou [n=quassel@p57A6C178.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:23 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:32 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 00:49:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:10 foof: Not when there is this little action going on. Besides, once you've been on IRC long enough, you don't need to *see* things, you just know them by the whitespace. 00:51:10 arcfide, memo from zbigniew_: remind me to mention the gaping security hole in your gopher server 00:51:23 zbigniew_: Reminding you. 00:51:35 zbigniew_: There's probably plenty of them. :-) 00:52:09 Though, I'm surprised that anyone even cared to look. :-) 00:52:21 heehee, zbigniew 00:57:26 Well, duh, gopher's specialize in making holes. 01:06:20 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:14:55 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.168.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:09 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:11 arcfide: Well, I can tell you here, or I can PM you. Just let me know. 01:30:34 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:51 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:26 Or I guess we have this thing called email now. That might have worked. 01:40:19 when the heck did I grow an underscore 01:40:24 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 01:40:53 _ lossage get 01:45:05 -!- metasyntax [n=metasynt@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:46:23 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:09 -!- glogic is now known as rrm 01:52:16 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:51 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:17 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 02:03:08 -!- Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:25:09 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:45 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:08 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:08 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:00 Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:14 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176203228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:18 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [] 03:18:02 -!- doublefree [n=doublefr@cpe-72-231-172-33.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:51:58 incubot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic0352250 03:52:02 you know this http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.html ? 03:55:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-208.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:03:57 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:11 rudybot: eval (+ 1 1) 04:22:12 Elly: your sandbox is ready 04:22:12 Elly: ; Value: 2 04:22:17 rudybot: source 04:22:17 Elly: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/4c4cd42ccc90a799e1873ecacfc6f0ca3da8510c 04:23:23 *Elly* inspects 04:28:13 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:28:47 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:30:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:49 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.60] has joined #scheme 04:43:14 incubot: could rudybot be right? is one and one really two? 04:43:17 eval (read) (foo #;bar baz) 04:43:45 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.60] has left #scheme 04:43:52 you're right, I should have phrased that in the form of an s-expression 04:44:26 incubot: (= (+ 1 1) 2) 04:44:27 #t 04:44:41 mind blown 04:44:54 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-193.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 04:49:47 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[n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:06:59 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:10:34 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 06:23:49 incubot: why do people have to touch my fucking laptop screen when making a point? this isn't indiana jones 2 06:23:52 I like Tony Garnock-Jones' alternate URL syntax at http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-83/mail-archive/msg00012.html 06:27:40 Besides "anniversary presents", is there *any* use for private browsing that marketers could use? 06:28:34 pr0n? 06:28:43 ... that marketers could use? 06:28:57 Looking for a new job from the work computer? 06:29:14 Ah, that works. 06:29:40 Hiding religious/political searches. 06:30:08 Teenagers hiding sex/drug searches from parents. 06:30:14 Only in certain places, and probably in those places it's too late since they'll just look at your wire. 06:31:04 Hiding sex is the same as porn, and I somehow doubt that drugs are going to go on-line any time soon... 06:31:09 No, it's not. 06:31:20 I'm just wondering what exactly is the market share of non-porn uses of these feature. 06:31:32 s 06:32:19 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 Thren [n=Thren@c-75-67-111-180.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 vandemar [n=anon@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #scheme 06:32:19 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 06:32:22 I'm talking about teenagers who don't know anything looking up valid information about sex and the human body - the sorts of things taught in school these days, that they wouldn't want to ask their parents because it could give away the fact that they're sexually active. 06:32:56 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:33:23 not if they're learning scheme 06:33:55 You mean ML. 06:34:03 It's better that they have easy access to that information, and encouraged to look it up. If they don't have private browsing, though, they're less likely to do so, and may end up making stupid mistakes. 06:34:39 Won't someone please think of the children! 06:35:02 Stupid mistakes can be just as well encouraged by this... 06:35:25 Hiding your "mature on-line buddy" conversations and such. 06:35:53 Oh wow... are you against sex education? That's an argument I don't want to get into :o 06:36:59 Who me? Of course not. I'm just saying that a privacy feature is not something that automatically *prevents* mistakes. 06:37:35 After all, your privacy is something that you gradually acquire through your childhood -- which is a good thing. 06:37:39 Didn't say it did, just giving what I consider a strong argument in favor of it. 06:37:52 Meh. 06:37:59 The danger you suggested exists either way. 06:39:56 I have a friend who would have benefitted a lot and whose life may have been very different if they had been able to privately look up information about sex as a teenager. 06:44:52 Still meh. Your parents can destroy or improve your life in a veriaty of ways that make your browsing habits negligible. 06:45:59 The point isn't what the parents can do, the point is whether the child feels free to look up information. 06:46:35 private browsing is a great thing to market to ISPs. The less they can know about their customers, the less legal heat they'll be in about it. 06:48:24 foof: Do you really feel some need to argue with just about everything I say even when I'm completely uninterested in the topic of the effects of browsing on teenagers? 06:48:36 ? 06:48:43 Meh. 06:48:44 You're the one who wanted examples. 06:49:10 Phew, I never wanted a discussion on parenting. 06:49:16 You're then the one who began the disagreement by claiming it was a bad example. 06:49:37 And if you think I'm talking about parenting, then you misunderstood. 06:49:54 foof: Just check the logs -- I don't think that you have ever responded to anything I said (when you did) in a way that wasn't argumentative. It's tiring. 06:50:19 Oh, sure, we argue all the time :) 06:50:23 synx: That depends on whether the ISP gets advantages (marketing insight, usage habits to plan infrastructure expansion) that outweigh the minor inconvenience of rolling over on a few customers when some third party gets a court order 06:50:44 But now you're arguing that we argue when you're the one who started this particular argument. 06:50:56 ... which is becoming a meta-argument :) 06:51:01 ...which is why I'll go back to: 06:51:03 Meh. 06:51:11 Anyway, to be clear, I'm not talking about parenting. 06:51:14 well that's why we need small, local ISPs vandemar, who don't benefit from such mass scale marketing tactics. 06:51:55 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 06:51:58 Teenagers go through a _lot_ of physical changes, and are often freaked out about it, and don't what is normal and what isn't, and don't know who to talk to about it. 06:52:06 you're talking about marketing applications I thought...? 06:52:39 file sharing is an obvious advantage to private communication. 06:52:43 They get vague sex ed at school, but would never dream of asking real questions there or talking to the teachers. 06:53:16 They can't go to a doctor by themselves as a minor. 06:53:27 I dunno foof, I found everything I needed at my local public library. :3 06:53:46 So having anonymous access to information is a very good thing. 06:54:05 foof: do you think we live in the fifties or something? hippies' children are now having kids and, if anything, oversex them bratz and other degenera du jour 06:54:20 s/bratz/with bratz(tm)/ 06:54:25 klutometis: There are still conservative parents. 06:55:00 foof: would you say the same thing about parents that limit their children's exposure to right-wing propaganda? 06:55:10 There are very many conservative parents... more than hippies I'd say. 06:55:17 synx: Yes, libraries are good, but are more work, may have limited information, anything you check out is on record, and people can look over your shoulder. 06:55:34 synx: i'm surrounded by hideous and oversexed divorcees all the time who witness their parents' debauchery 06:55:37 synx: must be an LA thing 06:55:38 They finished off all the hippies before they got to be parents. 06:55:49 s/who/whose children/ 06:56:11 foof: Yeah, and most public libraries in the midwest/south USA don't carry any sexual instruction manuals. :/ 06:56:15 I'm not talking about parents at all. 06:56:37 I'm just talking about kids being able to get info. 06:56:47 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:54 The biggest argument against which is the existence of so much disinformation on the web. 06:56:56 klutometis: ...yeah, I'd say LA is pretty out there. Even in Orange County though? 06:57:16 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 06:57:40 synx: good question; i thought OC was home to a lot of erstwhile yuppies who bought variable rate mortgages 06:58:32 Yuppies tend to be restrictive and over controlling parents, when they're not being negligent that is. 06:59:07 foof: i don't know, man; any kid that can't get around their parents' censorship probably deserves the darwin award 06:59:22 it's the responsibility of every generation to be smart enough to be subversive 07:00:24 The topic isn't censorship, it's private browsing. 07:00:25 how exactly is the generation supposed to learn how to be subversive, if they're cut off from the info on how to do it? 07:01:08 synx: indeed; if there isn't some form of genetic cleverness, they're doomed 07:02:01 Unfortunately klutometis, about 8000 years ago technology started evolving faster than genetics. In case you hadn't heard the news. 07:02:08 foof: but public browsing is a kind of censorship ex post facto, isn't it? i.e. punishment 07:02:27 Of course, most kids will know how to clear the browser history, but if it's the family computer the parents may wonder why the history went away, and what the kid is trying to hide. 07:03:04 By "private browsing" I assume you mean via some sort of anonymizing proxy? 07:03:31 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 07:04:17 Well, that was eli's term, I assume he means the privacy mode being implemented in several browsers now that just doesn't record activity when the mode is enabled. 07:05:55 Oh, hm... 07:06:13 That's a bit different than what I was talking about. 07:06:41 I think if you don't fully control the machine you're using, you can't ever assume that you're privately browsing. 07:07:30 synx: good thing genetic cleverness acts locally but subverts globally 07:09:34 if I was a parent/boss/authority, I could modify the extension to claim to enable private browsing, but secretly just change where it's recording. They'd never be the wiser... 07:12:01 So I'd advise marketing personal computer ownership to people. Sell laptops or netbooks or whatnot, on the argument that you can't take control of your own life without one. 07:20:17 -!- aircastle_away is now known as aircastle 07:27:13 Sure, but on that argument there's nothing stopping the parent from stealing and modifying the child's own computer. 07:27:37 If the parents are motivated and tech-savy, there's not much you can do. 07:27:56 Fortunately the average parent is neither ;) 07:28:01 VMs and crypto 07:29:24 They can hack the VM software itself. 07:36:28 Well... OK, if you're really paranoid you can keep an md5sum of the VM software along with an md5sum binary on a USB stick kept safely hidden in a body cavity. 07:37:15 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:42:45 You could encrypt the entire drive. I'm trying to think of a protocol to avoid typing the initial decryption password into a fake computer, but I suppose you could always just format the drive and then trade it back for the real one. At that point you'd also know that someone was trying to compromise your real computer and hasn't succeeded. 07:47:02 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-225-185.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:50:51 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-171-173.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [No route to host] 07:50:59 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-187-195.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:08 reprore [n=reprore@fw.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 08:12:04 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 08:12:31 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:41 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:13 -!- certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:25 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 08:22:25 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 08:27:20 -!- reprore [n=reprore@fw.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:39 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-187-195.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:54:06 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 09:05:52 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 09:16:54 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 09:22:47 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:31:49 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-110-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 09:37:50 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-110-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 09:49:44 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 09:50:31 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-225-185.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:56 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:50:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has left #scheme 10:16:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:17:30 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-105-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:24:01 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.154.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:05 delopart [n=sfv@85.110.166.213] has joined #scheme 10:25:07 hey 10:25:14 are there someone who knows plai 10:25:28 if someone there can i ask feq quenstions 10:35:46 ravenex [n=raven@151-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has joined #scheme 10:50:06 wut 10:52:26 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:53:04 what is wut 10:53:05 :d 10:53:55 «what» 10:54:31 hmm sorry 10:54:33 delopart: it is good netiquette on irc to just ask your question... 10:55:05 my quenstion is from chapter 5 of plai 10:55:26 for example you have ten with sentence 10:55:53 you have to traverse all with and do substitution 10:56:09 And book said the complexity of this opt square(n) 10:56:42 and exercis5.0.2 ask can the complexity of subtitution worse then square(n) 10:56:57 i am thinking about that but i didnt find an answer 10:57:04 what do you think about that 10:57:35 like an implementation of map? 10:58:29 i am not sure for example we have this (with (x 5) (with (y 10) (* x y)) 10:58:38 look at x and subs x in the body 10:58:47 look at y and subs y in the body 10:59:31 (with (x 5) (with y 10) (* 5 10)) --> traversing around with n times and subs value in body n time 11:01:19 -!- ravenex [n=raven@151-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:58 with takes three parameter boundid name-exprt bound-body 11:02:04 anyway 11:02:33 delopart: it seems to me that the given algorithm is of order n^2, so the answer would be "no" 11:02:36 ravenex [n=raven@134-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has joined #scheme 11:03:56 {with {x 1} {with {x {+ x x}} {with {x {+ x x}} {with {x {+ x x}} ...}}}} 11:04:18 (For some of the interpreters, IIRC.) 11:05:07 wha is your answer eli 11:06:48 delopart: is it possible to substitute code fragments for variables? 11:07:15 hotblack23 [n=hotblack@p5B056451.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:07:42 -!- hotblack23 [n=hotblack@p5B056451.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 11:08:29 i dont think so 11:09:00 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 11:09:30 my answer is no also what is the worse situtation ? It is cub(n) factorial(n) 11:09:54 but to reach that we have to provide new operation that rises complexity 11:09:55 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056451.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:10:11 i mean do traverse do substitution than do something new 11:10:14 llike that 11:13:42 delopart: It is not possible to substitute code for identifiers? 11:14:05 As a hint, just look at the type of the `subst' function. 11:15:55 type of subst function is WAE ? 11:16:43 in plt c extensions, the typetag thing for cptr changed in some version of plt, didn't it? i have to update some code i inherited that uses a string for it 11:17:03 i have 4.2.0 11:17:19 but i dont understand whole what is the type concept in scheme 11:17:28 for example public int func (...) 11:17:36 type of func is int 11:17:57 but you define function is scheme like (define (subst parameters)) 11:18:20 i didnt write any type of function 11:19:15 neilv: I don't remember, but that's very possible. 11:19:40 delopart: The types are what you're supposed to write as the function contracts. 11:20:24 hmm 11:20:30 i guess i understand 11:20:42 for example i have a function 11:20:47 contract is that 11:21:08 a b -> c type of that function is c can i understand well ? 11:22:22 delopart: yes. See the `subst' contract on page 19, then think about what kind of things you can substitute for identifiers. 11:22:45 yeah 11:23:24 you subst bingind instance value with identifier in the body 11:24:16 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:36 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 11:25:36 No, look at the type. 11:25:56 okey 11:26:05 i check i have one more question 11:26:21 book has exercise like {with {x x} x} 11:26:44 interp function produce an error like x is free identifier 11:26:49 but x is bound here 11:27:02 what does it produce such error 11:27:24 i dont understand by the way i am thinking for that problem 11:28:24 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.175.94] has joined #scheme 11:28:42 Look at all of the `x's -- are they *all* bound? 11:29:03 If that is correct, then you should be able to determine what this expression will evaluate to. 11:31:44 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.29.120] has joined #scheme 11:32:42 no free identifier in that with sentence i think 11:33:29 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:33:47 What is its value then? 11:34:40 i think the value of with sentece is "x" 11:35:06 it must be "x" because you subst named expression with the identifer in the body 11:35:22 i dont know actually 11:35:49 because subst func has (if (symbol=? sub-id bound-id) and we need two with sentences 11:36:08 like (with (x 5) (with (y 10) 11:36:15 x is sub-id y is bound-id 11:37:52 but the idds of body is same with bound-id 11:37:56 both of them are x 11:38:10 No, the value is not `x'. `x' is an identifier, it is not a value that appears anywhere at runtime. This program: {with {y y} y} should evaluate in exactly the same way. 11:38:51 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:39:15 hmm you said x does not have actual value 11:39:23 and cannot be evaluated 11:41:33 anyway thanks 11:41:43 Yes, that's what I said. 11:42:01 Can you say what is the value of `x'? 11:42:03 hmm 11:42:14 It can't be `x' -- because that's not a *value*. 11:42:15 "Unfortunately, many C programmers still think this is the primary use of macros (and in C, its not useful for a whole lot else), thereby further despoiling their reputation. (The previous sentence is intentionally ambiguous.)" -- PLAI 11:42:17 no i cant say 11:42:48 delopart: Here's an "easier" exercise: 11:43:05 {with {x 4} {with {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}}} 11:43:14 What is the value of this expression? 11:43:18 "Nowadays, we should regard the use of macros to manually implement inlining as a programming error. Unfortunately, many C programmers still think this is the primary use of macros (and in C, its not useful for a whole lot else), thereby further despoiling their reputation. (The previous sentence is intentionally ambiguous.)" -- PLAI 11:44:10 eli it is 17 ? 11:45:20 hkBst, c has macros like drscheme macros ? 11:45:42 delopart: no, it doesn't, that's the whole point :) 11:45:50 hmm 11:46:04 delopart: Yes, it's 17 -- now think why is that, and what would happen if I strip off the outer `with' expression. 11:46:06 the ambiguity is funny though 11:46:21 what is ambiguity 11:46:39 eli i think in outher with we assign a value to x 11:46:49 and we use it in inner with 11:47:48 i am newbie programmer sorry hkBst 11:47:49 :D 11:49:13 knows someone where can I find a list with the coresponding grade values, like AA+ = ... , B+ = ...., C = .... ? 11:49:34 :d 11:49:36 delopart: ambiguity is when there are multiple different meanings. In the above quote it isn't clear whose reputation is being despoiled. 11:49:55 hmm 11:50:09 macros or C programmers... 11:50:22 Edico: what is the target grade scale? 11:51:20 eli, is it okey to send my plai question to pltt mailling list ? 11:51:31 -!- aircastle_away [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:52:21 hkBst, I don't know the exercise it sounds like that http://codepad.org/IjeMhsns 11:52:28 i ask this question because some friends said "dont send such mail to plt list" 11:54:16 Edico pasted "exercise" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84224 11:54:22 Edico: either A->0, B->1, ... E-> 4, or A->4, B->3, ... E-> 0 I think. 11:54:51 a-> 4 11:54:57 b -> 3 11:54:58 the second is correct judging from the example 11:55:00 c-> 2 11:55:05 depends on the question... if it's of the type "please do my homework for me", then no. if it's a bug report or mostly theoretical, than you are free to risk ridicule. 11:55:29 i dont have any hw :D 11:55:50 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-106-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 11:56:04 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 11:56:08 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:56:43 but you know what i mean... the type of question: here is the text of exercise and "i don't know how to do it"... basically. 11:56:43 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:15 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 11:58:37 hkBst, and AA+ and B+ how should I interpreted? 11:58:41 delopart: You can ask, but people in general don't like helping with homeworks; especially when the author is on the mailing list. 11:58:56 Edico: No, what delopart is talking about is something completely different. 11:59:07 sladegen, i though on exercise but this is not homework ,This is not responsibility for something such as university.I want to learn something new because i am programmer.If i find answer for something.I cannot convince my self because i am not expert i am just rookie 11:59:36 delopart: in any case, you said that {with {x 4} {with {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}}} should evaluate to 17, 11:59:47 yes 11:59:59 Now, if you strip the outer `with' away, you get {with {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}} 12:00:06 yeah 12:00:22 So what *used* to bind the two `x's in the multiplication to 4, is no longer there, 12:00:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-238-67.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Success] 12:00:35 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-187-195.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:36 and that means that in this last expression `x' is unbound. 12:00:48 i understand. but i'm also taking into account that plt mailing list is very remotely connected with plai. if it was plai specific list you could risk trying to initiate a "solve this exercise with me question". 12:01:17 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:18 i understand you sladegen 12:02:01 sladegen: Well, it *is* the place to talk about plai; but asking for solutions of exercises from the book will get you the same reactions you'd get on c.l.s doing the same... 12:02:16 {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}} this is the scope of with 12:02:29 delopart: No. 12:02:31 right ? 12:02:33 no 12:02:35 hmm 12:02:47 wait a minute 12:03:01 why no 12:03:01 delopart: start with an expression like {with { } } 12:03:09 yeah 12:03:16 The scope of is -- nothing more. 12:03:27 Specifically, it is not bound in . 12:03:38 scope is the "body"... binding expression are outside of scope. 12:03:56 This is exactly why {with {x 4} {with {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}}} evaluates to 17. 12:03:56 yeah i understand 12:04:34 eli {with {x {* x x}} {+ x 1}}} this is the body of outer with ? 12:08:07 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 12:10:27 And also book said all with has own scope.In fact this creates problem in subs.For example {x 5} {+ x x}} is scope of with 12:13:15 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:16:19 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-106-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:17:59 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-106-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 12:24:57 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 12:32:16 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-106-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 12:34:54 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-106-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 12:37:29 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 12:52:35 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:55:12 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:55:56 ankou [n=quassel@p57A6F858.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:01:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:07:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 13:20:07 -!- ravenex [n=raven@134-243-252-87-dynamic-pool.gprs.mts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:23:22 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:42:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:50 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-136.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:48:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-208.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:59:40 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-199-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 14:33:59 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:57:24 rudybot: eval '<3 14:57:24 Elly: ; Value: <3 14:57:36 :) 14:57:47 rudybot: eval +i < 3 14:57:48 leppie: your sandbox is ready 14:57:49 leppie: ; Value: 3 14:57:59 rudybot: eval i <3 u 14:57:59 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: i 14:58:00 the bot knows the value of love! 14:58:54 rudybot: eval pi 14:58:54 leppie: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 14:59:00 also of pi, it seems 14:59:00 mmm pi :) 14:59:10 rudybot: eval (let ((pie pi)) pie) 14:59:10 Elly: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 14:59:12 also of pie! 15:01:09 rudybot: eval (string->symbol "i <3 u") 15:01:10 leppie: ; Value: |i <3 u| 15:02:01 rudybot: eval (define (<3 p) (quasiquote <3 (unquote p))) (<3 Elly) 15:02:02 Elly: error: eval:1:15: quasiquote: bad syntax in: (quasiquote <3 (unquote p)) 15:02:05 aww 15:02:11 tough love :p 15:02:26 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 15:02:36 rudybot: eval (define (<3 p) (list '<3 p)) (<3 Elly) 15:02:36 Elly: error: reference to undefined identifier: Elly 15:02:39 ! 15:03:05 I am not undefined! 15:03:36 rudybot: eval (symbol->string 'i\x20;<3\x20;u) 15:03:36 leppie: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 15:03:49 OOOOPS 15:04:03 rudybot: eval '`(,x) 15:04:04 soupdragon: your sandbox is ready 15:04:04 soupdragon: ; Value: (quasiquote ((unquote x))) 15:04:13 rudybot: eval '`(<3 ,x) 15:04:13 soupdragon: ; Value: (quasiquote (<3 (unquote x))) 15:04:51 eli: is that notation R6RS specific? 15:06:51 leppie: Yes. 15:07:05 rudybot: eval (symbol->string 'i\ <3\ u) 15:07:06 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 15:07:06 eli: ; Value: "i <3 u" 15:07:12 rudybot: eval (symbol->string '|i <3 u|) 15:07:13 eli: ; Value: "i <3 u" 15:07:20 Ahh, I didnt know that :) 15:07:40 how do you 'escape' unicode characters then? 15:07:49 \uxxx ? 15:07:57 in a symbol 15:10:05 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-105-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:17 You just write them. MzScheme reads the source in utf-8. 15:11:01 and if you want to print that symbol to a latin-1 file? does it get 'encoded' as | ... | ? 15:11:29 hmm, that wont work... 15:11:45 No, code is in utf-8. 15:12:08 You can do the conversion, but there is no easy way to read *source* in other formats. 15:12:21 ok 15:18:28 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:31:09 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 15:41:11 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-175-233.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:50:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:56:43 -!- delopart [n=sfv@85.110.166.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:27 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 16:24:06 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:24:18 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 16:30:22 -!- amoe 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error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:38 is there anyone who understand the procedure to generate propositional logic models from first order predicate logic? 21:21:56 argible [n=argible@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:26:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:34:53 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #scheme 21:42:52 etoxam: What exactly do you mean by that? 21:44:52 FOL that generates propositions to solve it 21:47:40 -!- m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 21:55:00 I would like to define an "enumeration" that is, a set of bindings all of which are bound to a sequence of integers, and none to the same integer. Then I'd like to "extend" that enumeration, continuing the sequence upward defining more bindings. 21:56:04 So I could go (define foo 0) (define bar 1) (define baz 2) (define top-of-enumeration 3) ... (define extended-foo (+ top-of-enumeration 1)) (define extension-2 (+ top-of-enumeration 2)), but... 21:56:28 The repetitiveness and manual counting going on really makes me think some kind of define-enumeration syntax would be better. 21:56:35 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:53 Is that not...possible? 21:57:13 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:57:16 r6rs has enumerations, but they are rather 'bitsets' 21:57:52 so they are numbered normally like 1 2 4 8 , etc 21:58:50 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-187-232.adsl.snet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:59:00 I have been well warned against using r6rs heh. 21:59:05 they do have procedures for finding the index of a such a value 21:59:23 I implemented them portably, you could just reuse the code. 21:59:26 But I'm just thinking about extending an enumeration like I was describing. 22:00:02 I got it to go (define foo 0) (define bar 1) (define baz 2) (define top-of-enumeration 3), but I can't use top-of-enumeration in a second define-enumeration, since it must know what that number is at syntax expansion phase. 22:01:23 sure, whatcha got 22:03:46 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:03:47 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["time to rebuild emacs"] 22:03:58 r6rs stuff wont work either, it's runtime, not expand time 22:04:28 cant you define top-of-enumeration as a 'syntax constant' ? 22:05:34 Yeah, but I can't pass it to the syntax transformer then though... not without using eval :/ 22:05:42 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/enumeration.ss is what I got so far. 22:06:58 See when I define the intermediary syntax argh, it lets me parse in types-last, but otherwise... 22:08:46 no ideas, sorry :( 22:11:20 m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:13:11 s'ok 22:14:59 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 22:17:24 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:57 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 22:20:05 synx: define-for-syntax? begin-for-syntax? 22:21:11 I could use define-for-syntax, but then I would have to literally type "types-last" into the definition of define-enumeration. Using define-enumeration I couldn't put in types-last... 22:24:07 hmm... 22:29:04 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 22:30:49 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 22:33:39 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:33:43 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 22:37:04 ToxicFrog [n=ToxicFro@69-196-190-92.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 22:37:52 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 22:41:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:29 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-7-71.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 22:44:32 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:48 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-7-71.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:53 -!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:27 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:25 -!- ankou [n=quassel@p57A6F858.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:06:53 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 23:10:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:41 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-7-71.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 23:17:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:29:02 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@89.146.190.240] has joined #scheme 23:29:47 Deformative [n=joe@c-68-84-167-117.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:57 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-7-71.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:46 Fare [n=Fare@bleriot.merseine.nu] has joined #scheme 23:46:53 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.175.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:18 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme