00:03:00 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 00:04:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:18 chandler: Well, can you think of some easy example, quickly? 00:09:10 -!- windows7_yow [i=d11f2105@gateway/web/freenode/x-e066ce2f00b613d0] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 00:11:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:48 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:48 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:25:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-240.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:27:05 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 00:31:35 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-193.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 00:47:36 Good evening, everyone. 00:47:59 yeah, yeah 00:48:01 g'wan 00:48:36 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-240.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:53:24 Are any of you attending the Scheme Workshop? 00:55:48 not I. 00:55:54 it's waaaay over there on the East Coast 00:56:00 probably costs a lotta $$ too 00:56:05 All of $40. 00:57:20 huh 00:57:26 that's unusual 00:58:46 Unusual? 01:00:52 Wait, where on the east coast? 01:01:40 Boston 01:01:53 *gnomon* hmmmms 01:02:01 Northeastern University 01:02:08 If I read the web page correctly. 01:02:11 Riastradh: You're going? 01:02:26 Isn't that right next door to you? 01:03:16 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:16 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:39 Huh, looks like there might be some very interesting stuff going on. 01:03:53 I wonder if I could convince $EMPLOYER to send me on a little trip... 01:04:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 01:05:15 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:06:08 I could perhaps be persuaded to attend, although I'm a good hundred miles or so distant from where it will be. 01:06:59 I've never been to one, so it'll be interesting to see what these things are like. 01:07:07 I wonder if they're anything like the online Scheme community... :-) 01:15:05 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:18:31 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:43 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:11 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:24:54 arcfide: Yes, of course. Most of the time people are busy slapping other people with gloves. 01:24:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:25:34 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 01:26:08 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 01:26:26 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 01:26:28 Riastradh stands in the center of the room, wearing his smoking jacket, tossing off bon mots, and dropping cigarette ash on the grad students 01:28:36 :o 01:33:12 -!- tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:04 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-50.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:45:32 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:28 Pocket [n=Pocket78@p2152-ipbf1507hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:54:52 djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-029-215.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:57:07 -!- djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-029-215.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:03 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:01:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:08:00 -!- Pocket [n=Pocket78@p2152-ipbf1507hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [] 02:16:05 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 02:17:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:41 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:26 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:30:37 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:54 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 02:40:02 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8151.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:20 offby1: heh; don't you think Riastradh smokes a calabash pipe, though? 03:09:41 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:41 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176221207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:15:14 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:38 klutometis: I'm pretty sure he looks like this: http://www.plumasdecaballo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/georgesanders.jpg 03:16:39 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/qjszka 03:16:55 note: no pipe 03:17:31 who's george sanders? 03:17:31 03:17:38 offby1: hey, are you in Portland? or Seattle? 03:18:30 chandler: I usually set short expirations because my questions are simple and get answered quickly. I figured that one out myself, I just had to use datum->syntax 03:18:34 chandler: Thanks though. 03:20:30 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:02 danking: you're learning syntax-case? 03:22:28 duncanm: You read printed litera-ture? 03:22:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:23:09 eli: occa-sionally 03:24:29 eli: why do you ask? 03:24:38 duncanm: it's common knowledge that they're the work of the devil; no moral person in their right mind should ever do so. 03:24:46 huh? 03:25:13 Fagedeboutit. 03:26:04 eli: This Scribble stuff, for what kind of textual content is it suited? I am referring here to your submission to the Scheme Workshop. 03:26:18 arcfide: Any. 03:27:41 eli: What I mean is, what do you consider to be Textual Content? 03:27:56 arcfide: It's really an elegant solution for string problems that modern languages address with here-strings, string interpolation, and multiple forms of quotations. 03:28:10 Textual content is, well, textual content. 03:28:26 Sounds intriguing! 03:28:28 For example, the scripts that you undoubtedly use to generate your home page content. 03:28:38 eli: Uh? 03:29:01 Are you writing your home page files manually? 03:29:15 eli: To which homepage do you refer? 03:29:22 Yours 03:29:27 eli: My personal page? 03:29:30 Yes. 03:29:43 eli: There are only two files, and at the moment, they are entirely hand edited. That will change. 03:29:53 eli: Most of the others are automatically generated. 03:30:05 OK, so when it will change, will you want to continue maintaining them by hand? 03:30:18 eli: I'm trying to see if the format would be a suitable means of expressing RDF graphs. 03:30:28 *eli* ughs 03:30:50 Did you ever write a scheme program that had dealt with text. 03:31:02 eli: Yes. 03:31:10 Did you ever write a scheme program that had dealt with a lot of text? 03:31:31 eli: If by text you mean a string of roughly ASCII characters. 03:31:53 Yes, but the second question was specifically asking about a *lot* of text. 03:32:02 Say, about a pageful of text. 03:32:28 bitweiler [n=phax@adsl-69-151-11-227.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:32:37 Oh, much more than a pageful. Does 746MB of structured, marked up text count? 03:32:50 Yes. Did you do that in Scheme? 03:32:55 Yes. 03:32:56 howdy #scheme 03:33:10 arcfide: Was that text entered as Scheme text? 03:33:15 No. 03:33:19 *gnomon* hands bitweiler a tankard 03:33:34 arcfide: How was it entered? 03:33:42 *bitweiler* bites into a tankard 03:33:44 bitweiler, first you drink it, then you bang it on the table to reinforce your argument, then you hit people with it. Comes in handy in this channel. 03:33:45 eli: It was a set of XML files that I parsed with SSAX and then used SXPath to extract data from the structured returned, and then output them in CSV format. 03:33:54 bitweiler: Hello. 03:34:06 arcfide, hello 03:34:28 gnomon: it taste okay though 03:34:33 arcfide: OK then, rephrase -- did you ever ...blah blah blah.. a pageful of more of text that you wrote in Scheme? 03:35:05 Ooh, you mean, like write a Scheme string lexical value that was more than a page? 03:35:35 Well, I don't know what you mean by "lexical value" -- I'm just talking about strings. 03:35:46 For example, writing a piece of documentation *in* Scheme. 03:35:53 I've written web pages in SXML, which requires Scheme strings. It was at least a page of S-expressions. 03:36:06 Whew. OK then. 03:36:15 eli: Sorry, i didn't understand what you meant. 03:36:18 Did you find writing that text painful? 03:36:24 eli: Not really. 03:36:43 eli The quoting of double-quotation marks was annoying, but quickly fixed in my editor. 03:36:53 Well, I do; and most people do. 03:36:54 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:37:07 First you have the quoting of double quotes; 03:37:12 then you have the quoting of quotes; 03:37:27 then you get indenation and such into the mix; 03:37:42 and soon enough you end up drowning in incomprehensible mess. 03:37:50 I can see that happening, yes. 03:37:58 Modern languages have several solutions for that -- 03:38:10 So, this addresses that. It allows you to write Scheme data that is mostly textual in a more useful way? 03:38:25 for example, Python has "..." and '...'; it has string interpolation (though awkward); and it has """...""" and '''...'''. 03:38:55 eli: I hate to bring Perl into the mix, but you mean like Perl's << whatever syntax it has? That kind of thing? 03:39:14 You know, I don't like non-disclosure agreements. 03:39:39 My solution basically covers these kinds of quotations in a convenient way, and they manage to do all of that while getting the same kind of advantages that you get with string interpolation -- *and* it keeps the "light weight spirit" of Scheme and S-expressions. 03:39:59 "Employee agrees to disclose all innovations created after the termination of employment." 03:40:11 *wolgo* apologizes for off-topic stuff 03:40:20 arcfide: The Perl thing that you're referring to is probably "here strings", which several schemes adopt in the #< eli: I see, so...not a good solution for RDF Graph representation. 03:40:51 eli: But nice, nonetheless. 03:40:53 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:40:57 arcfide: But that syntax is not really popular since it suffers from several key problems -- no interpolation; plays badly with indentation, and weird beginning/end markers. 03:41:23 I don't know how RDF graphs got into here, I certainly didn't intend to let them in. 03:41:38 I closed the door after I came in; I swear. 03:41:57 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:58 eli: Sorry, when I thought of textual data, I wasn't sure what you meant, and since what I'm working on right now deals with RDF, and much of that content is textually represented in files.... 03:42:23 Anyway, if you have these graphs as something that has some decent amount of text involved, then my syntax can certainly help there too. 03:43:29 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:43:32 Right now I prefer to represent them as S-expressions, but there are some properties which take strings that represent normal data, and it might be nice to have an easy way of quoting that data without all the editor necessities. 03:44:35 arcfide: Well, you *still* get S-expressions. My thing (at least in the workshop paper's context) is only an alternative reader, not an alternative representation and certainly no semantics attached. 03:44:45 If you have a sample file I can show you how it would look like. 03:44:58 eli: Yeah....hang on. 03:45:02 ok 03:46:57 arcfide pasted "SRDF FIle" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83980 03:47:05 eli: Try the above on. 03:47:30 OK. 03:48:01 Is `=' supposed to be short for `define'? 03:48:23 I don't have anything with lot's of text in it right now, but you can imagin the LIcense part as haveing ((: dscts "desc") ($ "")) in it. 03:48:48 eli: It's not Scheme code, just S-expressions. 03:49:12 eli: the '= is a symbol used to 'define' something, yes, but it doesn't map to the DEFINE procedure. 03:49:28 Yes, of course, I didn't mean to talk about the Scheme one. 03:49:53 Yeah, it's basically a definition form to bind a string to a symbol. 03:50:01 And `:' is supposed to be an infix `:', and `$' used for values? 03:50:43 : is used sort of like 'string-append' and $ tags textual data. 03:51:03 : is like the ':' in Turtle. 03:51:16 Turtle? 03:51:20 $ is for strings that don't have a language or a type value associated with them. 03:51:26 Turtle is another RDF representation. 03:51:37 Well, consider me an RDF moron. 03:52:29 Okay, (: ...) is used to identify a URI that is the concatenation of these strings and the strings associated with the symbols by '=' forms. 03:53:00 (: authors "arcfide") => "http://descot.sacrideo.us/rdf/authors/arcfide". 03:53:18 OK, one more second then. 03:53:34 eli: Sorry, I didn't have any other file format on hand, I know this one isn't the most obvious. 03:53:48 eli annotated #83980 "direct translation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83980#1 03:55:23 eli: Um...wow. 03:55:30 *arcfide* is not sure how to interpret that. 03:56:00 What does the @ do? 03:56:04 Is that the main syntax? 03:56:22 Yeah, well, that version doesn't look too good, because your source already suffered from the "cute bindings syndrom" -- where you use these short names because you have a lot of data. 03:56:40 Feeding that into `read' (with the scribble reader extension) will read the same though. 03:56:41 cute bindings syndrome 03:56:48 I see. 03:57:01 Hrm, is cute bindings syndrome a bad thing? :-) 03:57:07 I think I see what you mean though. 03:57:45 eli annotated #83980 "Now with more text" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83980#2 03:58:12 Ah, that's more illustrative. 03:58:32 In that I just added that text -- it still reads the same, with one exception -- the text will actually be ($ "some text" "\n" "\n" "some more text" "\n" ...) 03:58:33 eli: What if the text contains a '}'? 03:58:36 What are you guys doing to those s-expressions? 03:59:03 grettke: Come to the Scheme Workshop and find out. :-) 03:59:49 (Actually, I made a mistake, and left the `@' in my email unquoted) 03:59:59 eli: You can intersperse these scribbles in with normal stuff, right, So I could for example, leave the rest of the License stuff as it is, and only use the Scribble for the Description? 04:00:04 arcfide: does admission come with a ticket for authentic Boston cuisine? 04:00:14 eli annotated #83980 "With scheme identifiers embedded" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83980#3 04:00:37 grettke: I have no idea. :-) 04:00:41 Well, not really identifiers in that case -- that would read as 04:01:11 ($ "Copyright (C) 2003-2009 " my-name "<" my-email ">" "\n" "This library..." ...) 04:01:22 eli: Hrm. 04:01:31 And you can see where this is going: 04:01:37 I believe so. 04:01:41 Interesting. 04:01:57 because Scheme suck at doing this kind of free-text thing, you ended up having an intermediate representation. 04:02:10 Whereas I'd do something that would use plain Scheme code more. 04:02:22 It still doesn't remove the need to quote, though, it appears, but mostly fixes the need to have strange indentation and the like? 04:03:55 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:01 Yes. 04:04:17 eli: Actually, the main reason I use the intermediate representation is to achieve some neutrality of language. I like what I see of Scribble, though. 04:04:31 Quoting text that has `}' is usually not needed -- since balanced {}s are read as part of the text. 04:04:45 That, and I didn't want to sandbox my parser. 04:05:00 When you have unbalanced {}s, or when you want to use @s, then there's an alternate syntax: 04:05:18 @list{A Scribble form looks like: @foo{bar}.} 04:05:21 is read as 04:05:33 (list "A Scribble form looks like: " (foo "bar") ".") 04:05:37 So that's no good. 04:05:41 Instead: 04:05:50 @list|{A Scribble form looks like: @foo{bar}.}| 04:05:53 Is read as 04:05:59 (list "A Scribble form looks like: @foo{bar}.") 04:06:06 And the same for 04:06:15 @list|--=={A Scribble form looks like: @foo{bar}.}==--| 04:06:36 Right. 04:07:19 Basically take this as the most basic building blocks that make it possible to write the thousands of pages of text in the plt documentation -- and do it all *in* Scheme code. 04:08:00 And that includes the Scribble library documentation which itself has some sections that are full of text about scribble forms -- so that kind of flexible delimiters comes in very handy. 04:08:14 Right. 04:08:29 eli: Thanks for the information. 04:08:41 Are you giving a presentation on this at the workshop? 04:08:59 Yes, the popular 15 minute thing. 04:09:08 Yeah. 04:09:39 At least with that little amount of time, you really have to...distill the papers. 04:10:05 Well, I'm out of here. 04:10:52 Aaron, you will have Descot done for the workshop? 04:11:34 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:11:37 *eli* wonders /whois Aaron 04:13:34 arcfide: I intend to have something useful done. 04:13:45 I don't think the Query Server component will be written by then though. 04:14:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #scheme 04:14:35 Aaron is my invisible friend 04:14:42 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 04:14:55 rudybot: You shave more often than I do. 04:14:55 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 04:15:11 Oh yes, I forgot that your hearing is not really there. 04:19:48 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:25 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:21:08 *jcowan* unvanishes temporarily. 04:21:21 Blast, I was just about to sit there. 04:26:56 jcowan: is it painful when jcowan and anti-jcowan disassociate to form matter? 04:28:11 Probably not, but why ask me? If I'd experienced that, I wouldn't be here, eh? 04:28:57 *klutometis* wonders, then, how he pulls off the unvanishing trick so effortlessly 04:30:23 Who says it's effortless? 04:32:05 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-193.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 04:32:48 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:31 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:11 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:43:58 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:28 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 04:49:44 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:49:48 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 05:11:13 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:16:20 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:26:25 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:12 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:41:34 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 05:41:36 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [K-lined] 05:42:14 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:40 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:43 -!- bitweiler [n=phax@adsl-69-151-11-227.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:24 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-211.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:11:47 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:09 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:24:53 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:25:11 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 06:25:12 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 06:28:17 Here's a stupid question: 06:28:31 Did Olin ever release code to his loop macro package from Danfest years ago? 06:28:40 If so, is there anyone who has it or can point me to it? 06:34:32 dnm_, I don't think I've seen it, but foof-loop competes in that space. 06:34:58 -!- Hydr4 [n=Lernaean@24-107-112-153.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:36:50 URL? 06:40:29 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 06:41:45 http://chicken.wiki.br/foof-loop I take it? 06:42:16 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:01 dnm_, and also http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.{txt,scm} 06:44:36 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/60dcac5ea812398 is also good historical reading on the topic, and the References in that post are quite useful. 06:46:20 Cool, I'll check it out. Thanks! 06:51:32 Quite welcome! 06:56:28 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:00 ASau [n=user@host71-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:59:10 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:08:39 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:27 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:19:04 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 07:25:51 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 07:33:06 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:36:23 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:41:38 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-211.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:56:21 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-34-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:56 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:58:39 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 08:07:33 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:07:38 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 08:21:47 wks [n=wks@202.91.180.75] has joined #scheme 08:23:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:24:34 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 08:26:15 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:29:43 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Success] 08:30:12 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 08:31:27 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 08:31:28 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:35:47 -!- tessier__ is now known as tessier 08:51:02 jao [n=jao@76.Red-88-18-100.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 08:53:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:54:33 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-38-156.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:40 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:55:49 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-171-173.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:37 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:45 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-38-156.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:29:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:41:08 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 09:41:41 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has left #scheme 09:53:28 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:54:19 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 10:03:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:10 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:11 -!- wks [n=wks@202.91.180.75] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 10:44:16 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.57.245] has joined #scheme 11:01:57 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.40.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:55 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@84.239.243.120] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:08:18 mookid [i=mookid@ROFL.name] has joined #scheme 11:08:45 I just realised why scheme defines it's functions the 'wrong way round' 11:10:18 is it so it reads left to right? 11:11:02 ((do something) do more things to that) 11:11:29 rather than the 'normal' way which is (do more things to that(do something)) 11:25:40 cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:25:50 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-171-173.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:30:48 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.57.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:55 mookid: wrong way around? I thought scheme didnt define the evaluation order 11:33:59 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 11:35:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 11:46:08 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.227.106] has joined #scheme 11:46:32 I guess he means prefix vs postfix notation. 11:54:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:58:24 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 12:04:32 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:14 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:11:20 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:12:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:22:44 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 12:24:06 mookid: no, it does use the normal way (do more things to that(do something)) 12:26:31 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:30:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:30:41 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.179.24] has joined #scheme 12:33:04 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:34:45 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 12:37:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:37:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.179.24] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:09:24 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.15.184] has joined #scheme 13:10:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:19:17 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 13:39:24 mookid: if you're looking for the "wrong way around" try factor or postscript 13:39:50 these use postfix-notation 13:40:06 or write your own postfix-scheme macro, like I did :) 13:53:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:04 underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has joined #scheme 13:58:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:03:55 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 14:04:48 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 14:06:28 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-38-156.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:28 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:18 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.180.183] has joined #scheme 14:12:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:23:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:31 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:34:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:24 -!- ASau [n=user@host71-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:36:35 Leonidas: oh really? 14:36:55 hmm I'm confused 14:37:13 oh wait yeah my bad 14:37:16 oh you all suck then! 14:37:24 Javascript ftw! :D 14:37:46 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:28 javascript is also a kindof scheme 14:40:58 what what? 14:42:09 JavaScript is only slightly similar to Scheme. It doesn't provide any of the distinguishing features of Scheme. 14:44:04 chandler: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2008/04/popularity.html 14:44:16 The creator of JS wanted to make a Scheme in the browser 14:44:42 Then he obviously failed miserably. 14:44:49 He ended up making a lot of shortcuts and had to use a more "familiar" syntax 14:47:27 I don't know if he failed 14:47:31 js is pretty powerful 14:47:55 "Familiar" syntax is not my issue. A Scheme with curly-brace syntax wouldn't offend me. A horrible little language with poor numerics, no tail-call guarantees, no continuations or coroutines, and no macros is not "like Scheme" just because it has lexical scope and first-class functions. 14:47:57 prototypal inheretence is noiiiice 14:48:43 what do you mean by 'no macros'? 14:49:33 JS has no macros 14:49:43 AFAIK SICP doesn't discuss macros, does it? 14:50:11 I think this guy was very much a Scheme novice at the time 14:50:20 you can roll your own macros if you need them 14:50:29 He only mentions someone "turned him onto SICP" 14:50:30 in js I mean 14:50:42 Only if you implement your own eval() 14:50:55 Which is hardly desirable with a string-based eval 14:51:35 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:51:52 meh - in terms of engine popularity/power it's one of the best languages in use today 14:52:02 I agree 14:52:22 It's pretty neat, but you should never lose sight of the fact there's much better languages out there 14:52:23 it's not perfect and you have to be pretty disciplined to use it well 14:52:37 but I actually really enjoy programming in it 14:53:04 and I don't have to compete with rocket scientists to get a gig. 14:53:06 that helps. 14:53:09 heh :) 14:53:14 :) 14:53:33 I'd still disagree. Other languages such as C#, Python (ug), and Ruby (if they ever produce a half-decent implementation) bring substantially more to the table than JavaScript. 14:53:42 i will one day get zen'd out in FP I'm sure 14:53:48 but I'm not old and beardy enough yet 14:53:49 no offence. 14:53:51 ;D 14:54:13 I'm not old, and the only reason I'm beardy is that I haven't shaven yet today. Which I should probably go do now... 14:54:24 chandler: C#? What does that bring to the table? And python? That doesn't even have proper lambdas last time I checked 14:54:33 I think JS is just horribly missunderstood 14:54:58 sjamaan: python has libraries :) 14:55:01 haha 14:55:03 jQuery is going a long way to making JS best practices into good ones 14:55:11 sjamaan: From what I've been told, the lambda thing in Python has or will soon be fixed. Both C# and Python at least have proper numerics. 14:55:12 *sladegen* will never understand why people shave. 14:55:19 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:55:23 the ExtJS library is pretty good 14:55:34 jQuery I'm not so fond of 14:55:38 I don't like all this $ bullshit 14:55:56 chandler: What's wrong with the JS numerics? Everything is floating point, which is a pretty simple way of dealing with stuff 14:56:05 It's not fast, but who cares? 14:56:19 I don't! 14:56:21 :D 14:56:33 but I'm not rocket scientists.. 14:57:06 Why waste cycles? But beyond that, there's no reason *not* to have bignums in a language like this unless you don't know how to implement them (and can't be bothered to use an existing implementation). 14:57:57 And the use of double-precision floats results in substantially slower execution on processors that don't have hardware double-precision floating point. 14:58:11 fit for purpose 14:58:46 If the purpose is making the Web substantially slower than it needs to be (or require substantially more complex hardware than it needs to), sure. 14:59:24 yeah because client's in client/server apps are gigantic..! 14:59:27 gimme a break :P 15:00:03 They are getting more so. And besides, it's an obvious waste of energy. 15:00:34 chandler: what did you read that suggested Python's lambdas will be "fixed"? That's news to me 15:00:38 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:01:11 Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-30-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:01:26 offby1: This is second-hand hearsay from IRC. I don't remember much more other than something about a new syntax to disambiguate binding from assignment to closed-over variables. 15:03:59 chandler, offby1: besides the scope problem, you can't use lambdas with anything but expressions, AFAIK. 15:04:08 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-216-182.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:05:16 http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3104/ I think is what I'm remembering. The syntax has something to do with "nonlocal". 15:05:23 It's possible I'm misinterpreting as I don't actually know Python. 15:05:54 chandler: I think python 3 already knows about nonlocal, which fixes the scope problem. 15:07:00 HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.197] has joined #scheme 15:07:05 mario-goulart: The statements-in-lambdas problem is just a bit of syntactic hairyness, isn't it? You can always call a global function from the lambda and pass it locatives that reify closed-over variables to get around that problem, but nothing will let you reify those closed-over variables if you can't assign to them. 15:07:13 So it's good that it's been fixed in python 3. 15:08:48 chandler: but if you have to call a global function to do the job of an anonynous function, what's the point of having them? 15:10:18 *mario-goulart* goes out for lunch 15:11:21 Well, what's the point of working in a language with such aggressively mal-designed syntax at all? 15:12:46 The lambda scoping problem was a very real semantic issue. Without `nonlocal', there were things you just couldn't do. Now it's just practically horrible to work with, which is an all-too-familiar story in software. 15:15:48 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 15:24:30 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:46 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:05 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:15 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:47:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:57 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:53:22 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 15:56:31 -!- aircastle_away [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:29 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:03:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:06:07 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:11:08 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:12:18 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-211-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:18:58 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.81.46.25] has left #scheme 16:24:17 nicholasw [n=nw@c-76-21-11-106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:45 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@c-76-21-11-106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 16:25:45 gnomon, by the way, the latest (beta) version of foof-loop is presently at , or . This includes a reference manual with the vastly improved writing to which you contributed some months ago. 16:25:59 foof-loop? 16:26:01 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:27:29 foo-floop 16:28:10 Elly: 16:28:59 Riastradh: why do you do that to links? 16:29:05 Do what? 16:29:10 put <> around them 16:29:43 To distinguish them from the surrounding text, and so that no URI-valid characters accidentally affix themselves to the URI. 16:30:07 ah, I see 16:30:24 do those fancy terminals that turn URLs into clickable things handle that properly? 16:30:26 This makes it easier for user interfaces that look for URIs for users to select, to do so without including extraneous characters. 16:33:06 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:38:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:47 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:38:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d1df738631a734e] has joined #scheme 16:39:38 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:40:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:03 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.197] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:29 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:48:24 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 16:51:18 Riastradh, ah, brilliant! Thanks for the updated link! 16:51:59 Riastradh, speaking of foof-loop, do you happen to know whatever happened to Shivers's loop macro..? 16:52:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:04 No, except that he presented it again at the ILC this year. 16:53:17 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 16:54:52 If you attend the Scheme Workshop, you'll be within a short distance of the guilty party's office, near which you would then be well-situated to besiege with assault rifles until the bloodied source code emerges waving a white flag. 16:56:17 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:57:24 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:57 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:45 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 17:02:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 17:04:02 jiimmy_ [n=mts82@c-24-128-82-230.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:10 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:12:24 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:13:40 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:14:43 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 17:15:21 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:56 Riastradh, what a stimulating idea. 17:26:03 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-30-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day..."] 17:27:58 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:28:13 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:28:30 incubot: where is your assault rifle? 17:28:33 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:33 you couldn't auto fire an entire clip of the assault rifle without it breaking down halfway 17:30:00 incubot: but just imagine if they built assault rifles like software... we'd be driving sci-fi tanks by now. 17:30:03 "We won already? But you haven't even handed out the rifles!" 17:30:22 incubot: so, read any good books lately? 17:30:24 I'm sure its absolutely fascinating stuff. :) Playing around with e-book ideas, Amazon kindle, Sony PRS-500 things. Hmmm e-books on phones. 17:30:31 I see 17:30:59 incubot: iBooks on the e-Phones. 17:31:02 topline macs are expensive, but the iMacs/iBooks are reasonable 17:33:39 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-216-182.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:56 sladegen: so, in which scheme does your "ident" do something interesting? 17:34:01 incubot: e-moticons help me i-communicate 17:34:03 rudybot_: eval ((,\ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(,\ (x) `(,x ',x))) 17:34:04 basically what I did is write generic input and output functions that the "inner" parts of the pipeline use to communicate with each other. in the case of two filters, you will basically be batting continuations back and forth. for example, when the second filter needs an input it will save its place (with a continuation) and call the filter before it. when it's ready to output, it saves its place and calls the first continuation. ge 17:34:10 rudybot: eval ((,\ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(,\ (x) `(,x ',x))) 17:34:11 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 17:34:12 *offby1: error: eval:1:2: unquote: not in quasiquote in: (unquote | |) 17:34:43 rudybot: don't blame me 17:34:44 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 17:35:16 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:20 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) 17:37:21 stepnem: your scheme sandbox is ready 17:37:21 stepnem: ; Value: ((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))))) 17:38:21 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:38:30 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:38:36 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:56 a shiver ran up my quine 17:49:14 *offby1* drinks some gin and 9-quine water 17:49:38 hmm, that one is even shorter than the one I have in my sig 17:49:46 *leppie* modifies :p 17:50:06 wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:13 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-0-95.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:09 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 17:52:27 socialite [n=piespy@78.8.143.58] has joined #scheme 18:02:47 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:57 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:13:50 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:15:15 bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-98-95.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 18:16:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:10 -!- bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-98-95.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:21:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 19:14:35 Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-30-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 19:18:37 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:14 -!- wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:40 camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:27:46 cam_ [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:29:08 -!- cam_ [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:08 -!- camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:26 camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:36:28 eheh... just implemented STARTTLS for the SMTP protocol. Easier than I thought it'd be... 19:36:42 tail recursion makes it really easy to reset state. 19:38:09 nice werk! 19:42:07 I just hope it isn't a huge bad idea. 19:42:30 Trying to avoid spam by having an IP/HELO based whitelist. Requires a custom proxy in front of the retarded mail server though. 19:45:49 npe [n=npe@212.224.219.69] has joined #scheme 19:46:10 -!- npe [n=npe@212.224.219.69] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:18 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:57:19 incubot: why do i get bored of extrinsic projects after six months? it reminds me of aristotle's law of post coitum triste 19:57:22 muy triste 19:57:29 tell me about it 20:07:48 "not forming an essential part of a thing or arising or originating from the outside" 20:08:00 my question is how do you do such a thing for six months without getting bored. 20:08:32 Most extrinsic ideas you'd have to pay me to work on. 20:08:56 synx: good point; it must be the 14 eyeballs of my dependents gazing up at me 20:10:07 If your coworkers gaze up at you, maybe you need a lower chair... 20:10:45 heh; being 6'4" doesn't help either ;) 20:14:35 -!- Keyframe2 is now known as Key|AFK 20:16:16 gnomon: If you plan on doing that, then expect resistance. 20:16:44 leppie: If you want to go for size, do ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) 20:17:09 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 20:39:32 rudybot: eval ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) 20:39:32 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 20:39:35 synx: error: with-limit: out of time 20:40:00 I don't think that's a quine, eli 20:41:42 rudybot: eval ((buffalo buffalo) (buffalo buffalo) (buffalo (buffalo buffalo))) 20:41:42 *offby1: ; Value: # 20:41:43 *offby1: ; Value#2: # 20:42:27 synx: (a) there are several ways to interpret "a quine"; (b) nobody said anything about quines (except offby1, indirectly). 20:43:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:24 leppie said "that one" in response to a program offby1 clearly was trying to make into a self-reproducing program. I assumed therefore that leppie was looking for the shortest quine to put in his signature. 20:45:54 synx: Well, I'm very happy for you, but that was just that: an assumption. 20:46:13 And, you're still missing my (a) point. 20:46:22 I didn't claim it was anything but an assumption. 20:48:09 OK, then, I'll retroactively pretend that your "I don't think that's a quine, eli" had the same meaning as "that example has 3 pairs of balanced round parens, eli", or "the sun is yellow, eli". 20:48:17 -!- Key|AFK is now known as Keyframe2 20:48:25 And you're *still* missing my (a) point. 20:48:38 Well, is it a quine? 20:48:51 (a) 20:49:17 If leppie wants a small quine in his signature, I don't think that one you posted would reproduce itself. Am I incorrect? 20:49:39 Can we stop speaking about leppie who did not say anything about quines? 20:50:13 And if you really want to talk about quines, you need to define what they are. 20:51:10 For example, some people may consider (define (foo) foo) a quine, even though that's fundamentally different on two different major points from programs such as the one stepnem played with. 20:51:44 I mean a self reproducing program... what else is a quine? 20:51:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:56:44 synx that's correct, .. a program printing it's own source code (or possibly evaluating to it's own source code) 20:57:25 maybe any self referencing program would be a quine...dunno really. 20:57:31 no 20:58:37 *sladegen* thought quine was a frenchman lost in london. 21:00:04 -!- camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:58 synx: (define (foo) foo) *is* "self reproducing". 21:01:19 a quine is a cross between a quill and a spine, clearly. 21:01:35 Oh, uh... yeah I guess it is. I read it wrong eli, sorry. 21:01:43 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-193.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:45 (define (foo) (foo)) is what I read. 21:03:52 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:04:04 synx: Here's another thing that might be considered a quine: 21:04:06 ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (equal? y (list x (list 'quote x))))) '(lambda (x) (lambda (y) (equal? y (list x (list 'quote x)))))) 21:12:46 noisetonepause [n=niklas@x1-6-00-18-f8-e1-bc-0e.k312.webspeed.dk] has joined #scheme 21:17:33 that theme from the sicp lectures gets a bit grating when you watch them back to back... 21:19:45 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:02 noisetonepause I like it 21:21:09 i've watched six episodes since yesterday morning 21:21:31 it's 21:21:35 i don't know. 21:21:55 maybe i'm just looking for faults and that's the only thing i can find 21:23:18 it'd make a good ringtone, though. 21:24:58 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:25:01 ... 21:25:48 you missed step 1. 2. and 4. 21:25:49 The lectures by Harold Abelson? 21:33:29 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:11 -!- wolgo [n=noige@69.59.130.52] has quit ["leaving"] 21:34:23 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:38:59 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:39:42 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:48 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:52:14 You haven't heard much Bach I guess. 21:52:25 noisetonepause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9EN27Zh_vg 21:52:53 it's the synth sound 21:53:01 i love bach 21:53:07 sounds like a guitar to me 21:53:27 I'm not a big Bach fan... I like his choral music though, some organ music. 21:53:42 goldberg variations! 21:54:20 offerings! 21:54:27 um... 21:55:28 segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-b371d5311fe3e34f] has joined #scheme 21:55:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cap-igaHAS4 21:56:09 yeah, don't really like the Goldberg variations. Too much ornamentation. 21:56:29 hi 21:56:53 synx: so not into beethoven either? 21:57:11 benny99 [n=benny@p5486EE1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:22 jengle [n=jengle@64-252-187-232.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:04 hi 21:58:13 Some Beethoven is good. I like his big symphonic works. Not so much a fan of the string concertos though. 21:58:31 his piano music? 21:59:01 I don't know much about his piano music... think I heard some clever variations once, but nothing really evocative. 21:59:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUYHfDzB3Bo 21:59:33 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:45 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:09 i like his string quartets. 22:00:18 I don't even think you can really compare Beethoven to Bach. They came from different eras. 22:00:25 oh, yeah 22:00:33 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 22:00:39 definitely 22:00:42 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-30-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [" I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"] 22:01:30 Nope, that pretty much just sounds like rambling on the piano to me. The tense part in the middle is okay, but then it trails off again. Sounds kinda ...pompous I guess? 22:01:56 I love Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata though. That was an awesome piano piece. 22:02:05 it's mad 22:02:23 So simple, yet so effective. 22:02:27 bbbut, both their names start with a b... are there even any famous classics starting with an a? 22:03:01 alban... berg 22:03:03 damn! 22:03:05 oh i know... amadeus mozart! 22:03:09 you know sladegen I can't think of any composers whose last name started with A... 22:03:17 Oh sure first names :p 22:03:19 antonin... dvorak 22:03:24 alma mahler! 22:03:25 err 22:03:26 wait 22:03:28 Aaron Copeland. Ha I got two a's! 22:03:43 heh 22:03:50 John Adams 22:04:03 There you go, John Adams. 22:04:05 he's a composer, anyways 22:04:31 and, err, if you find him you'll find him in the classical section 22:04:44 but he's still alive so i'm not sure it counts 22:05:41 yeah, doesn't count... and it's first i heard of him. not that i'm a big classic or music buff for that matter. 22:06:15 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:06:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomaso_Albinoni 22:07:01 ! 22:07:07 (no, i've never heard of him either) 22:08:25 Too bad music's been making a downturn since all those electronic conveniences popped up. 22:08:44 hm 22:08:47 I feel the need to sheep-dog this conversation back towards Scheme. 22:08:55 We're in a state where you can make stuff for a lot cheaper, that's just bad enough people don't care, so that's what they make. 22:09:02 woof! 22:09:16 chandler: baah! :) 22:09:35 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 22:09:50 the snd editor can be scripted with guile 22:09:54 I hope that the electronic music situation will result in even more complex and rich music though, if we ever figure out how to use it right. 22:10:07 wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:20 (call-with-current-conversation (lambda (k) (scheme-report-environment 5))) 22:10:21 Which reminds me has anyone ported cm to scheme yet :| 22:10:44 synx: cm? 22:10:45 clm? 22:10:53 common music 22:11:13 It's like some weird non-module combination of cm/clm/cmn or something. 22:11:24 the worst part about "modern" music is fixation on circa 5 min pieces WITH lyrics... fsck lyrics! 22:11:24 http://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/grfsnd.html#sndwithcm 22:11:25 ? 22:11:41 sladegen: i like short forms. 22:11:56 worst part about modern music IMO is "copy and paste" 22:11:58 i've got the attention span of let's ride bikes! 22:12:29 copy and paste is great in certain situations, but nearly every song today is the same measure repeated with variations AND NOTHING ELSE 22:12:47 sure, duration is not the worst part... it's the song's got to have lyrics mentality. 22:12:52 noisetonepause: never used snd before 22:13:01 sladegen: Virtually everything I listen to is ~60-120 minutes of mixed, nearly lyrics-free music. There's plenty of it out there. 22:13:08 sladegen: well, it's not really a song if it doesn't have singing, is it? 22:13:09 In any event, this conversation still isn't going where it ought to be going. 22:13:16 call-with-corrective-action 22:14:16 What I want is to make an abstract definition of sequences of pitches, effects and durations, modulate those intelligently, and apply those to some notion of instruments to produce a sound file. 22:14:29 *sladegen* calls saved continuation... 22:14:45 Or the instruments could simply be proxies that produced instructions for humans to follow playing real instruments. 22:15:12 synx: so you want to generate sheet music? 22:15:34 noisetonepause: Not just sheet music. Ideally people could just read the source code <.< 22:15:43 It's the proper abstraction that I want. 22:15:56 mm. 22:15:59 I always get flummoxed by the idea of "take note sequence A, and repeat it except shifted one 'note' up in the 'scale'" 22:16:24 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:30 I mean how do you define "the scale" anyway? As a parameter? What is it? What about notes outside of the scale? What about chromatics? 22:16:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:18:05 Was trying it in lilypond once, but... you end up with bits of pending sheet music that have no meaning in terms of pitch, or else bits of pitch that have no meaning in terms of any sort of abstract scale. 22:21:01 Def [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:11 hm. 22:22:00 should be easy to coerce a random number 1-12 into the nearest one from a defined set of seven? 22:23:04 i'm not really sure how i'd go about making a suitable abstraction for it 22:23:42 never taken the time to learn any music generation thing in depth 22:23:55 i did do some of the examples from clm in snd, and thought, hm, this is neat 22:24:00 but it kind of stopped there. 22:34:26 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:56 -!- noisetonepause [n=niklas@x1-6-00-18-f8-e1-bc-0e.k312.webspeed.dk] has left #scheme 22:36:49 quantizing pitches is one idea... I think the best though would be to give each note itself a scale, like share a scale between a bunch of notes. 22:38:45 So it'd be like (let ((scale #(0 2 5 9 10 11 12))) (chromatic-notes 0 6 9 ... (vector-ref scale 3))) would turn the 3rd note of a scale into a chromatic note 22:38:53 presumably then to become actually pitches 22:39:25 synx: i did something similar with music of the spheres; had abstract note generators from a keplerian model of the universe 22:39:37 synx: eventually reduced to notes, sound 22:39:40 all in scheme 22:39:54 s/universe/solar system/ 22:42:01 Neat. 22:42:28 How did you handle associating pitches durations and stuff like accents together? 22:43:18 My above example starts getting a lot more complicated when notes can either be a chromatic number, or a chromatic number wrapped in a duration specifying object wrapped in an object that describes the note's inflection. 22:43:26 And don't even get me started on slurs. 22:47:39 synx: it has mixer and chordal abstractions that do the low-level trigonometric algebra; including panning, fading, etc. 22:47:59 what i don't have yet are noise functions that make more interesting instruments than your basic sine 22:48:08 should be trivial to add, though 22:48:37 in fact, my paper got rejected from the ICMC until i add that 22:48:39 hm... 22:48:48 ICMC? 22:49:12 international conference of music and computers, i think 22:49:35 never heard of it... 22:49:40 sorry, international computer music conference 22:49:42 There's the ICMA? 22:49:54 ICMA organizes the ICMC 22:50:09 ooh so you mean this http://www.icmc2009.org/ 22:50:17 exactly 22:50:43 i need some sort of noise function that's meaningfully tied to the composition of planets 22:50:50 then i'm in 22:51:00 ankou [n=quassel@p57A6DC9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:41 hi, I'm looking for a free non-copyleft implementation which I can embedd in a C++ application. 22:53:06 ankou: http://synthcode.com/wiki/chibi-scheme 22:53:12 the new kid on the block - chibi 22:53:19 rotty: jinx 22:53:30 Or, for something entirely more substantial, Chicken: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ 22:53:42 rotty: though i don't see any mention of license in the README 22:53:48 Well, not that I mean to imply that chibi is *insubstantial*, but there's a lot of meat on them chicken bones! 22:53:48 chandler: can you "embed" chicken? 22:54:08 unless FFI constitutes embedding 22:54:15 And, yes, that was the next link I was pulling up: http://chicken.wiki.br/Embedding 22:54:36 oh, nice 22:55:10 Afraid I'm not completly understanding the "music of the spheres". Some kind of automatically generated music based on the perceived motion of the heavens as Kepler imagined them, conveniently railroaded into a Baroque cantata format? 22:55:35 thanks, how are they licensed? 22:55:35 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:56 Chicken is MIT licensed. 22:56:09 I'm not sure about Chibi, and there's a notable absence of foof here. 22:56:17 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:56:58 Hm, no, Chicken appears to be closest to a three-clause BSD. 23:00:36 synx: who said anything about baroque cantata? one translates the period of the planets' rotation into an audible pitch (whilst preserving pitch class); and realizes this cosmic harmony from some interesting moving point, say, cassini-huygens 23:00:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:16 replete with chemically-analogous noise, etc. 23:05:18 -!- wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:09:19 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64-252-187-232.adsl.snet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:32 the planets rotate around the sun, so if you used the sun as your point, I guess each one would have a continuous steady pitch for each planet? 23:10:13 is it the period of their rotation, or the perceived speed that determines their pitch? Because the period shouldn't change no matter where you observe them... 23:10:13 and another question because I'm just at the beginning of learning scheme and would like to know if it really can compete to newer languages in all categories: Is it possible to fully implement object orientation with just standard scheme(no extensions)? Is it really possible to FULLY implement most paradigms in scheme? 23:11:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-72.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:14:29 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:16:33 no? 23:16:43 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/scheme/oop/0.html 23:16:51 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/md6pf8 23:18:04 but oo is overoverrated. 23:18:17 wow, that's twice the overration 23:18:19 ;) 23:18:43 ankou: It's uh, what do you mean "standard" scheme? R5RS? 23:21:14 ankou: also... http://library.readscheme.org/ but i'm no CS stud of paradigms. 23:21:20 You can use R5RS to construct any of that object oriented stuff. It's a little short when it comes to threading though. 23:22:35 Try doing anything in python without importing any libraries :p 23:22:52 oo was just an example. What I really wanted to know is if scheme is powerfull enough to FULLY implement other programming paradigms then functional or procedural programming. Many languages are able to simulate some objectoriented behaviour but most of them are not able to support all aspects of object oriented programming so I wanted to know if scheme is powerfull enough to express all aspects of oop and if it integrates well into the language 23:22:52 that there are object systems (I already found the list sladegen posted) but I don't know if they are complete(I suppose important points are information hiding & inheritance & polymorphy) and if they integrate well(unlike GObject in C where nobody wants to use inheritance because it doesn't integrate well) 23:22:52 ankou: unlike fragile languages (python, say, or c++), scheme can accomodate OO sans magic 23:26:20 http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-object-oriented 23:26:37 OOP is just a special case of closures. 23:27:27 It might interest you to note ankou that C++ programming typically has very bad information hiding. 23:28:15 and it's rather better that scheme is not straight-jacketing one into any one paradigm... 23:28:43 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486EE1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:29 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 23:31:24 scheme allows you to construct your own syntax, with as much power and flexibility as the language implementers themselves. That's really hard to beat. 23:31:40 yes of course, this was one reason why I'm interested in scheme. However, a language that trys not to force a paradigm should have a syntax which enables one to use any paradigm without ugly hacks 23:33:16 I really don't worry about paradigm so much as what I'm actually trying to do. 23:33:16 ankou, being able to implement a given programming language paradigm without ugly hacks is usually a function of the programmer, not of the programming language. You're digging in the wrong place. 23:35:15 you can't get uglier than basic s-expression... 23:36:39 sladegen, sure you can. APL, MUMPS, XSLT... 23:36:52 Consider a decentralized database among untrusted peers, of hash-value pairs, where the hash algorithm is a one-way hash like SHA and the value's maximum size is relatively small. How do you determine which peer has the value for any given hash? 23:36:52 ...yer mom. 23:36:54 *gnomon* ducks 23:37:04 no, that's better ugly ;) 23:37:08 gnomon: win 23:37:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:38:31 I was thinking kademlia, but then I realized that it means each peer is obliged to keep values which will likely not correlate at all with the values that peer actually wants to keep. So I'm stuck at this point. 23:40:10 I think for lisp critics, "syntax" is a code word for parentheses :) 23:40:41 meh, parentheses 23:41:13 meh indeed :) 23:41:21 I still like concatenative syntax that one guy put together. Never got around to using it though. 23:42:26 staapl that's it. It's too focused on embedded machine code stuff though, dunno how it applies generally. 23:42:26 concatenative is kind of cool, actually 23:42:33 Just never done much with it. 23:45:02 I don't think anybody has. 23:45:09 My last experience with it was in MUF 23:45:26 That language was a joy to program in. 23:47:29 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:02 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:31 -!- ankou [n=quassel@p57A6DC9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:31 *sladegen* can't understand why there is no well known MUD/MUSH server running in lisp... or erlang... for that matter. everyone ended up confirming greenspun law anyway. 23:55:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 23:55:45 jed [n=jed@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:59 -!- jed is now known as jedc 23:56:05 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:57:41 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:06 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme