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I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 03:36:38 minion: Why do I always have to slap you? 03:36:40 well, i don't think why do i always have to slap you though 03:36:49 How evasive. 03:37:18 minion: Are you avoiding the question? 03:37:19 no 03:37:26 *eli* slaps minion, just for fun 03:37:38 Hey now. 03:37:52 Poor l'il bot. 03:38:10 *eli* points at the first law of robotics 03:38:35 *gnomon* points at the first law of #scheme convo-dynamics 03:38:43 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:39:17 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:20 *eli* pretends to be busy doing something else 03:39:36 I'm busy, I don't have time for #scheme rules. 03:40:19 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-112-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 03:45:46 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:05 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:47:08 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 03:47:11 wolgo [n=noige@69.59.130.52] has joined #scheme 03:48:14 I am using the little schemer to learn. I really like scheme. I also have the reasoned schemer. I tried to read sicp but it is too boring. Are there any other items that those of you who are experience scheme programmers would recommend to me to read? 03:48:37 too boring :o 03:49:39 yeah 03:49:48 The content is great but I do not like the writing 03:49:55 I do like the videos though. 03:50:17 copumpkin: I think it is because my math skills are very rusty. 03:55:17 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:22 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 04:00:12 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:03:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:04:54 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:11:47 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:19 I don't like SICP much. Just skimmed through it really. 04:18:51 A lot of it is arguing for argument's sake. 04:20:23 lists, tail recursion, garbage collection, and continuations. Teach me those and everything else really isn't a big deal. 04:24:14 synx: Do you have any recommendation for those topics? I have only programmed in python a little bit and I have chosen scheme because I do not like the forced indentation of python. 04:24:52 I dunno really, mostly I just checked the manual for PLT. 04:24:58 oh 04:25:00 okay 04:25:08 I did learn something from SICP, but mostly I got the same knowledge already from disparate sources. 04:25:15 Some C book on data structures, etc. 04:25:25 oh okay 04:25:43 synx: by the way, i merely had to set connection.ssl.cert_verify = 0 to see synx.to.us in elinks; future reference 04:25:53 I hear this book is pretty good: http://www.htdp.org/ 04:25:57 whatever works though. 04:26:17 klutometis: Huh. elinks never asked me to verify the certificate, oddly enough. I'll remember the setting though, thanks. 04:29:34 Also shift/reset STILL make no sense to me. 04:29:34 synx: the default behaviour changed in the experimental git tree, apparently 04:29:49 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/shift-reset-madness.ss 04:29:58 gotcha klutometis 04:30:38 I'm not a big fan of SSL verification. It's like asking Soviet Russia to tell you which websites are dangerous and forbidden to view. 04:31:35 incidentally the above program gives two different results, just because of the addition of an 'incr' placeholder in the first. 04:50:07 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:55:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 04:56:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:13:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:35 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-228-230.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 05:27:34 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.228.230] has joined #scheme 05:28:02 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:31:13 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:01 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-f6983fc5d2ed2ca9] has joined #scheme 05:59:54 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 06:15:49 ASau [n=user@host186-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:25:55 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:26:01 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.228.230] has left #scheme 06:33:53 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:20 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 06:40:11 mapfn [n=map@91.142.56.44] has joined #scheme 06:40:50 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:58 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:48 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:52:42 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:52:47 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit ["raise Hand, 'wave'"] 07:01:00 -!- mapfn [n=map@91.142.56.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:51 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:05:51 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:09:19 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 07:38:47 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:48:55 -!- underspecified [n=underspe@leopard175.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:58:40 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 08:05:48 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-152.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:09:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:11:43 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 08:17:28 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:20:03 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:32:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:37:53 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:06:34 sayyestolife [n=yakov@81-224-219-56-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 09:07:21 I'm planning to create a couple of small 2D games. Which library and which implementation would you guys suggest? 09:08:40 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 09:22:30 mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #scheme 09:24:58 sayyestolife, Since I don't really know what else there is I'd just use opengl and glut 09:26:06 -!- mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:37:42 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:38:20 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:38 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 10:00:28 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:02:07 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:08:17 incubot: catch three-l nulll! 10:08:20 if you encounter a list before nulll return false 10:08:46 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:09:32 incubot: (list? 'false) 10:09:32 #f 10:09:50 incubot: (list? '(quote false)) 10:09:50 #t 10:09:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:14 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:18:31 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:20:17 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has joined #scheme 10:22:12 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 10:22:18 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1167.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 11:20:49 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 11:23:56 -!- ASau is now known as ` 11:24:26 -!- ` is now known as Guest49977 11:24:34 -!- Guest49977 is now known as ASau 11:25:36 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-152.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:27:18 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-191-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:29 -!- ASau is now known as \ 11:30:38 -!- \ is now known as ASau 11:40:25 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 11:51:55 Leonidas pasted "more rb-tree madness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83910 11:54:00 anyone has an idea how I could handle rb-delete? 11:54:27 it works fine unless I get to the rb-delete-fixup, because x is (void) 11:55:25 (the algorithm is more or less taken directly from CLRS) 11:59:13 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 12:07:07 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:22:34 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-34-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 12:31:54 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #scheme 12:33:20 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:38:26 underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has joined #scheme 12:39:23 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 12:48:15 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:16 x 12:51:41 y 12:55:42 is there any BDD package for scheme (BDD as in decision diagrams)? 13:01:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 13:03:27 baho_is [n=MIRC@dsl-pool-87-253-198-233.vologda.ru] has joined #scheme 13:03:55 -!- baho_is [n=MIRC@dsl-pool-87-253-198-233.vologda.ru] has left #scheme 13:05:41 michaelw: Are you the michaelw from FB? 13:08:29 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:08:31 -!- sayyestolife [n=yakov@81-224-219-56-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 13:12:19 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:14:24 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:26:42 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 13:28:59 Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 13:31:45 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:56:30 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:56:47 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:57:23 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:28 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:57:47 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:52 brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:58:47 SchemerNate [i=nathan@lambda.caesium.org] has joined #scheme 14:00:02 elf: Your name not mike is it? 14:00:15 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:00:48 HG` [n=wells@xdslex120.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:01:27 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:15 (Just wondering if it is you might have a PDF about PBX system you built.) 14:04:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:12:01 Leonidas: *usually*, the much easier way to do these things is functionally, with pattern matching... 14:13:24 eli: I know, I already downloaded chris okasaki's paper where he implements RB-Trees in SML. 14:13:46 eli: pettern matching will be my next implementation, after exams. 14:14:32 Leonidas: It makes some hairy AVL-like programs outrageously short. 14:15:12 actually, I think there is some problem in the pseudocode in CLRS, because they are accessing the parent node or a node that might be NIL[T] which will fail, no matter what. 14:15:33 *Leonidas* looks into pattern matching in PLT 14:15:50 rudybot: doc match 14:15:50 eli: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/match.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fmatch..ss)._match)) 14:17:20 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 14:17:22 eli: match will allow me to create an implementation without explicit mutation, right? 14:18:05 Leonidas: Yes. 14:18:11 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has left #scheme 14:18:14 Something like this: 14:18:36 rudybot: eval (define (foo l) (match l [(list (x y) ...) (map list y x)])) 14:18:36 eli: error: eval:1:32: match: syntax error in pattern in: (x y) 14:18:42 rudybot: eval (define (foo l) (match l [(list (list x y) ...) (map list y x)])) 14:18:51 rudybot: eval (foo '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))) 14:18:51 eli: ; Value: ((2 1) (4 3) (6 5)) 14:19:33 nice :) Uh, now I got even less motivation to finish my imperative implementation 14:19:45 lol 14:21:04 That's always good... 14:21:28 eli: thanks, I'l *definitely* rewrite it with pattern matching after I get this working. 14:21:31 you will have to think of better ideas to keep you motivated :) 14:21:35 *eli* takes his shotgun and goes outside to hunt more mutants 14:23:08 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:10 i dont mind mutation, just some forms of it 14:23:28 *SchemerNate* wonders if there's a telcom channel 14:24:55 to me the following is perfectly acceptable: (let ((x 1)) (lambda ( ... ) mutate x here, and never expose x directly)) 14:26:06 leppie: Yeah yeah... And then you run multiple threads and next thing you know, your computer takes a crap in your coffee. 14:31:44 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 14:33:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:37:00 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:38:04 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:41 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:44:15 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:45:36 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:38 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Client Quit] 14:46:24 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:47:20 eli: I finally debugged that very first mzscheme script of mine 14:47:57 Fare: Did you get that `parameterize' thing? 14:48:18 yes 14:49:10 though it won't help me redirect the output of time itself w/o redirecting the output of what's in it (though I could wrap in a macro that re-parametrizes what's inside) 14:49:38 meh 14:53:30 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:39 Fare: Huh? 14:54:50 A macro would be very easy. 14:56:18 rudybot: eval (define-syntax-rule (time* time-out expr-out expr) (let ([o1 time-out] [o2 expr-out]) (parameterize ([current-output-port o1]) (time (parameterize ([current-output-port o2]) expr))))) 14:56:28 rudybot: eval (parameterize ([current-error-port (open-output-nowhere)]) (time* (current-error-port) (current-output-port) (printf "1+2=~s\n" (+ 1 2)))) 14:56:28 eli: ; stdout: "1+2=3\n" 14:56:29 eli: not any different from making other code thread-safe 14:56:42 rudybot: eval (parameterize ([current-output-port (open-output-nowhere)]) (time* (current-error-port) (current-output-port) (printf "1+2=~s\n" (+ 1 2)))) 14:56:42 eli: ; stderr: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 14:56:51 Fare: ThereYouGo. 14:57:16 leppie: Huh?? "Making code thread safe" is exactly what you don't need if you don't have state. 14:57:53 leppie: That whole "my state is localized to this specific piece of code, so you shouldn't care about it" can break much faster with concurrency. 14:58:16 leppie: "making code thread-safe" is one of those myths we tell, like "making C/C++ not leak memory or access freed memory" 14:58:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #scheme 14:59:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:23 it's not like I do it ALL the time :p 14:59:38 but I understand 15:00:07 chandler: Well, it's not a myth -- what's missing is a time indication: 2 decades to get rid of "many" memory leaks, about 4 decades for thread-safety... 15:02:11 Well, the kind of thread-safety that's supposedly obtained by adding locks to code which mutates shared state is a myth. 15:06:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:39 so one should rather construct a new 'copy' with a modified state? 15:06:57 like monads if I understand them correctly? 15:07:52 -!- Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 15:07:55 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:09:16 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-152.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:56 -!- ASau [n=user@host186-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:16:32 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:08 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:07 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 15:55:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:55:53 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:00 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:00:41 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 16:04:36 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 16:07:15 -!- hiffy [n=phillmv@okayfail.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:08:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:53 I don't think it's a myth chandler. You just run into deadlocks in certain situations. 16:17:37 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 16:18:09 And deadlocks still are not a race condition. 16:25:37 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:33:19 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:40:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:04 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:29 lisppaste: url 16:51:30 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 16:52:17 hkBst pasted "fun with macros and hygiene" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83927 16:52:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has joined #scheme 16:53:57 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:57:22 schemernate: no, my name is not mike, but i know a mike who also goes by elf. 16:57:31 good morning assorted schemers, btw. 16:57:48 hi 16:57:55 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:05:20 elf: Hmm... 17:05:50 elf: Did he make a PBX at somepoint and use own glassfish.net? 17:05:58 no idea. 17:08:21 Don't you hate it when there's a dead link that looks really good. 17:12:04 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:12:04 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:14:42 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 17:17:03 Quadrescence: given that I don't know what "FB" refers to, probably not. Also, my name is extremely common 17:17:26 michaelw: Well, the 'w' is what made me think so. 17:23:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:26:39 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 17:28:47 incubot: i just witnessed two serialized cases of mistaken identity 17:28:50 witnessed by my problems with understanding (call/cc call/cc) 17:31:41 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:58 incubot: i witness therefore i am. 17:34:01 therefore does not need to obey banking regulations 17:34:41 incubot: shaaaa! 17:34:43 incubot: what came first, banking, or banking regulation? 17:34:46 I guess I didn't fully cancel environmentalist, but it's hard to see the possibility of much treatment for environmental concerns through the free market. Some, sure, and perhaps it's not impossible, but a healthy dose of government regulation seems a more secure route. Even if it's just to internalise costs. 17:35:08 possible race condition averted, you win this time! 17:35:11 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #scheme 17:35:51 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 17:36:12 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:36:29 roderic` [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:36:46 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:21 -!- g0ju [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- pantsd_ [n=hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-6274542859f7943e] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:25 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:35 zrk [n=dansan@c-67-167-174-234.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:46 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 17:37:53 Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:00 anyone have suggestions as to a "good environment" to do SICP in? 17:38:15 zrk #sicp 17:38:17 zrk ##sicp 17:38:23 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 pantsd_ [n=hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-6274542859f7943e] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 g0ju [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:30 soupdragon: thanks! 17:38:32 -!- zrk [n=dansan@c-67-167-174-234.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #scheme 17:38:41 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:38:56 pantsd__ [n=hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-451113afec86aca2] has joined #scheme 17:39:41 -!- pantsd_ [n=hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-6274542859f7943e] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:01 eli: looks like a possible misconfiguration of svn.plt-scheme.org's hosting server... I'm receiving "413 Request Entity Too large" in response to REPORT request for '/plt/!svn/vcc/default' -- that's a near direct quote from the output of svn update. 17:42:52 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 17:46:18 davazp`` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:34 -!- davazp`` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:16 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:47:16 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:49:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5e9ff8f94878857] has joined #scheme 17:49:57 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 17:51:50 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [Success] 17:53:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:59:14 -!- roderic` is now known as roderic 18:00:06 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:00:06 -!- ada2358 [n=ada2358@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:03:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:37 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:03:37 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 18:03:37 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:37 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:37 ada2358 [n=ada2358@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:03:43 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:48 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:04:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:04:42 Edico [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 18:13:07 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:14:59 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:15:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:49 -!- _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:53 _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:16 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:21:10 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- g0ju [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:21:10 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:22:03 g0ju [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has joined #scheme 18:23:44 Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-61-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 18:25:41 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:22 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:55 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 18:31:04 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 18:33:23 Daemmerung: I vaguely remember some svn problem that causes that intermittently... There were no changes to the server configuration in the last N months, for N>3, at least. 18:34:05 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:36:49 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:35 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:10 Client could be sending the wrong size in the header, as I recently "upgraded" my client. I'll roll back and try again. 18:43:27 Reboot! Reboot! Ok! 18:43:47 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 18:43:51 [1]Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-61-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 18:45:52 rudybot: later tell Daemmerung: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 18:45:52 minion: memo for Daemmerung:: eli told me to tell you: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 18:46:03 *eli* slaps minion 18:46:14 *eli* slaps rudybot 18:46:25 *eli* slaps all non-human participants 18:46:30 I think minion is lagging and hasn't seen your message yet. 18:46:37 Er, it's not even here. 18:46:38 Doh. 18:46:49 chandler: No, acually rudybot didn't respond. 18:46:53 rudybot: ping 18:46:53 eli: pong 18:47:15 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:26 *eli* slaps himself 18:47:42 I removed the rudybot's reply and immediately forgot that I did so. 18:47:46 rudybot: later tell Daemmerung: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 18:47:47 minion: memo for Daemmerung:: eli told me to tell you: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 18:47:47 Remembered. I'll tell Daemmerung: when he/she/it next speaks. 18:50:11 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-61-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:11 -!- [1]Keyframe2 is now known as Keyframe2 18:52:42 I think you have an extra colon in there 18:53:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 18:56:45 *eli* slaps eli again 18:57:08 minion: memo for Daemmerung: eli told me to tell you: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 18:57:08 Remembered. I'll tell Daemmerung when he/she/it next speaks. 18:58:04 rudybot: later tell rudybot hi 18:58:04 minion: memo for rudybot: chandler told me to tell you: hi 18:58:05 Remembered. I'll tell rudybot when he/she/it next speaks. 18:58:05 rudybot, memo from rudybot: chandler told me to tell you: hi 18:58:05 minion: memo from rudybot: chandler told me to tell you: hi 18:58:06 you speak nonsense 19:01:01 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:02:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:47 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-f6983fc5d2ed2ca9] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:02:58 like clockwork 19:04:04 wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:21 for some reason my work's internet shuts down for X minutes every night 19:04:28 same time 19:10:47 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@93-141-61-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC"] 19:15:05 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:34 Rolled back to svn 1.6.2, no joy. Oh, well. I don't need to be fussing with this today anyway. 19:16:34 Daemmerung, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 19:16:34 Daemmerung, memo from eli: eli told me to tell you: yeah, could be a client issue -- I didn't upgrade our client for a while now -- mostly because after being hit by that bug for our user repository, I'm kind of hesitating to jump on new subversion builds. 19:17:43 Daemmerung: You can try the subversion equivalent of rebooting -- checkout from a clean directory... 19:18:57 *Elly* waves the darcs flag 19:24:51 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:55 dfgth [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #scheme 19:37:05 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:44 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:43:06 -!- dfgth [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:09 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:47:25 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:49:49 Can I use syntax-case to match ONLY those forms that use certain identifier names? IE, can I differentiate between (lamba (x y) ...) and (lambda (foo bar) ...) ?? 19:50:22 yes 19:50:44 rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:52:07 Elly: Ok so, I've got 11.1Pattern-Based Syntax Matching open here and I don't see how to specify a certain name. I don't understand how to say I want to match the id "foo" instead of saying I want to match some datum and call it foo. 19:52:24 Oh. 19:52:27 hold on. 19:53:37 that list immediately after syntax-case is not decorative :P 19:56:54 danking: The literals list in `syntax-case' works exactly the same way it does in `syntax-rules'. 19:57:39 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslex120.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58:02 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:58:14 chandler: Yeah, I didn't pick up on those literals in either form >_> 19:58:20 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/syntax-case-literals.ss 19:59:03 synx: Thanks 20:01:21 Just an example 20:01:29 Does the "fender-expr" have to confrom to some kind of standard? (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () [(_) true 'one])) throws an error. 20:01:37 synx: Gosh, why don't you just lisppaste it? lisppaste doesn't cause my Firefox to complain about an unsigned server certificate, and it even sends an encoding in the Content-Type header so that Unicode works properly. 20:02:19 The fender-expr is a form which is evaluated. If the result is a false value, the pattern is not matched. 20:02:27 Gives me an excuse to complain about Firefox. 20:02:46 You don't have to supply a fender if you don't want to. 20:02:49 links2 failed to complain about the server cert, but didn't display the unicode either 20:03:00 Plus it's easier for me to just save a file, than to go copy, paste, and lisppaste it. Wait for lisppaste to load etc. 20:03:08 That's because there is no supplied encoding. My Firefox and OmniWeb both default to latin-1 if not supplied. 20:03:31 Should be utf-8... 20:03:32 chandler: Is "true" not a form? I don't need the fender, but I just thought it weird that my previous snippet didn't work. 20:03:48 Yes, but you cause an equal if not greater hassle for everyone who wants to visit the URL. 20:03:56 danking: It is a form. Is `true' bound to anything? 20:04:01 rudybot: init scheme 20:04:02 chandler: your scheme sandbox is ready 20:04:15 Well I wouldn't call it a hassle to go to one site instead of another. If it gives you problems, blame your browser. :p 20:04:28 I might be able to do something about that encoding though, hm... 20:05:10 rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((foo (let ((true #)) (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (z) ((_ z f) true #''f)))))) (foo z a)) 20:05:10 chandler: error: eval:1:30: read: bad syntax `#)' 20:05:13 Agh. 20:05:19 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 20:05:21 rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((foo (let ((true #t)) (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (z) ((_ z f) true #''f)))))) (foo z a)) 20:05:21 chandler: ; Value: a 20:05:54 There now it specifies the UTF-8 charset by default. 20:06:25 I wouldn't trust a browser that didn't at least complain about the unsigned certificate you're using. 20:06:34 Ah shiz.. 20:06:51 There are other options for pasting to lisppaste as well. I've seen at least one shell script, and there is a quite nice emacs client. 20:07:05 Well if you would stop trusting industry cartels to tell you what is safe, then maybe it wouldn't complain. 20:07:08 Er, "script which could be invoked from the shell". I don't think it was actually written in shell. 20:07:33 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:07:35 synx: do you have a suggestion for an alternate root of authority for SSL? 20:07:56 I have it signed by CACert. I'm not a big fan of certificate authorities in the first place though... 20:08:05 yo mamma! 20:08:54 If you are worried about someone impersonating me, my fingerprint is 73:D8:F8:91:1F:C6:62:96:12:B1:83:8B:FD:35:31:AC:A4:9C:AA:40 20:09:15 if someone was going to go to the trouble of impersonating you by MITMing your SSL cert, it would be trivial to also do so to your IRC session 20:10:11 If someone went through the trouble of breaking into my house and holding a gun to my head, your certificate authorities would be worthless anyway. MitM attacks can never be stopped in all cases. 20:10:20 that's not a MITM attack. 20:10:27 that's a MIYH attack :P 20:10:34 hehe ;) 20:10:38 heheh 20:10:57 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:11:19 I'm just saying, you ought not to trust the Verisign stooges more than Freenode. Yet browsers are hacked to trust the former, and let you think the latter is somehow less secure. 20:11:44 At the very least I'd trust them the same amount. 20:11:55 but anyway, I have yet to see a PKI system that works without either some root of trust or a communication scheme that can't be MITMed 20:12:01 -!- rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:07 I think the idea is that Verisign has a financial incentive to be trustworthy. 20:12:11 I think the only thing that really matters is that my browser pesters me when loading that page. 20:12:17 synx: sure, but do you trust the people running your ISP and all the routers in the middle, and do you trust them to have their shit secured? 20:12:47 I personally believe it should be possible to use SSL easily for anti-eavesdropping without bothering users, while having a separate category of verified-identity certificates. 20:12:49 having verisign in the equation means I don't have to :P 20:12:55 They use all that finance danking to start up propaganda convincing various browsers to scare people who don't respect their authority. It's the lowest of low behavior I say. 20:12:59 chandler: this is a user-agent problem 20:14:00 i'd say it's user-agent problem. 20:14:13 agent-user... oopsies ;() 20:14:48 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:06 incubot: agent-user foiled yet again. 20:15:09 ...says Feeley's infiltrating agent! 20:15:31 Well like I said I get it signed by CACert, so add that authority if you really want to trust someone besides me. 20:16:07 I think you should just find a way to lisppaste your code easily. 20:16:42 I don't want to be forced to use lisppaste :p 20:16:46 perhaps a wgetpaste variant is in order 20:16:50 Maybe I'll use it sometimes. 20:17:38 alternatively, don't serve with SSL unless you need it :P 20:18:10 rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:18:19 I don't want to be forced to decrypt my communication. 20:18:44 so don't encrypt it in the first place; then no decryption is necessary... 20:19:18 I'll just give you a shell account and you can get the files directly, as long as we're not concerned about data integrity. 20:19:38 chmod -R 777 / 20:19:47 that's going to cause data integrity problems :P 20:20:51 Yet serving over HTTP where every authority can spy on my activity is somehow okay. 20:21:14 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.16.230] has joined #scheme 20:21:16 read versus write is different 20:21:25 *Clearly* those authorities couldn't be monitoring this conversation, or themselves requesting the code that you linked to earlier. 20:22:05 Oh gotcha Elly 20:22:08 chmod -R 755 / 20:22:09 mode 777 will rapidly lead to privilege escalation :P 20:22:17 whereas that will lead to people stealing your ssh private keys 20:22:22 which will also lead to privilege escalation :P 20:22:27 And *clearly* a basic example of syntax-case shared publicly in IRC needs to be protected. 20:23:14 Anyway, so you have to draw the line somewhere. I just say fuck it and encrypt everything, and only decrypt when necessary. I'd like to minimize necessary if you would be so kind. 20:24:08 OK. Well, best of luck in finding an encrypted Scheme channel! 20:24:17 your threat model makes no sense, though, since your server will gladly send that text back to anyone who asks for it, and this is a public channel 20:24:28 if you are worried about someone stealing your code, you certainly shouldn't link to it... 20:24:31 If I transmitted over HTTP, you would have no way of trusting that I wasn't being hijacked by my ISP either, but does your browser ban the site then? Nooo. 20:24:39 otoh, if you're looking for a cryptic scheme channel... 20:24:58 synx: yes, because I wouldn't even have verisign or thawte or whatever's word on it 20:25:01 Elly: I may be transmitting information besides just an example scheme program. 20:25:07 I have no means of trusting that my own computer hasn't been rooted, nor that yours hasn't either. 20:25:18 I know enough to know that the computers are likely to be the weakest link. 20:25:23 someone links to Reflections On Trusting Trust in three, two, one... 20:25:38 or not? 20:25:57 http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html 20:26:01 Well sure, so if my computer got cracked then they could just steal the private key and Verisign wouldn't be able to tell they did it. 20:26:19 thank you, gnomon :P 20:26:27 ObRoTT ;) 20:26:55 Meh, ROTT is just a straw man anyway. 20:27:27 how so? 20:27:38 You only have to carefully examine the binary instructions once, then you can use that as a base and compile source code. 20:27:51 ROTT does mention that they backdoored the disassembler, right? 20:27:56 Haha. "Only". 20:27:57 It's assuming up this mysterious hacker who can change our binaries without us noticing. 20:28:06 do you notice when your binaries change? 20:28:30 I only install signed binaries. 20:28:35 Yes, because I can spot a carefully written backdoor in the millions of bytes of gcc object by reading it! 20:28:38 signed by whom? oO 20:28:52 Oh dear. Someone's *really* drunk the crypto kool-aid. 20:28:53 Well that's why you start with a simple compiler, chandler :p 20:29:00 Elly: generally someone in the Debian project. 20:29:05 that's what kt did, though 20:29:19 started with a simple compiler, wrote a more complex backdoored one, and compiled it with the simple one, then threw the simple one away 20:29:50 Yeah Elly, and anyone examining the source initially passed to the simple compiler would be able to see the back door. 20:29:58 Perhaps you missed the bit when the Debian servers were hacked? 20:30:01 but they wouldn't see that source 20:30:14 Or when the Debian OpenSSH had a fubared PRNG? 20:30:23 just like you don't have the source used for the original builds of gcc 20:30:34 Well I realize I don't have the most secure setup, but if I wanted to do it, that's the strategy I would take. 20:30:50 "signed by the debian project" lost a little of its gravity after the PRNG thing :P 20:31:07 Some kind of embedded hardware, server rack or something, and then be sure to compile everything with a binary known not to be messed with. 20:31:16 where do you acquire that binary, though? 20:31:28 Well I could write it in assembler? 20:31:31 gcc.org? 20:31:33 that's the entire point of the trusting trust paper - you can't bootstrap a system without a trusted initial compiler 20:31:46 you could write it in assembler, if you trusted your assembler 20:31:49 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.121.24] has joined #scheme 20:31:53 and you can only compile gcc with gcc 20:31:55 Debian fixed the PRNG thing anyway, so their signatures aren't hackable anymore. 20:32:01 gcc's bootstrapping process requires gcc 20:32:04 *sigh* 20:32:13 If I don't trust my assembler, then clearly my hardware is compromised. 20:32:17 chandler, just curious: do you expect to have a serious conversation with synx? 20:32:22 the assembler is also a program, synx 20:32:29 Again we're getting back to the situation of the man holding a gun to my head. You just can't achieve 100% security. 20:32:33 Riastradh: Apparently I haven't had enough of one until now to form an expectation about this. 20:32:43 I know better at this point. 20:32:43 synx: if there's a guy holding a gun to your head, *you* know you aren't secure 20:32:57 synx: if your assembler and compiler are backdoored, you don't... 20:33:12 What I know doesn't matter if he can change my communication to make it look like I'm still secure. 20:33:37 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:33:42 that would be true if you personally did not have anything secret :P 20:33:55 Well my assembler and my compiler are not backdoored, so there you go. :p 20:34:01 aren't they? 20:34:05 that's good to know 20:34:17 Hack my system and prove me wrong. 20:34:30 "not backdoored" and "not backdoored by Elly" are different, synx 20:35:31 ... Are you asserting that your computer is un-hackable? You could make *big* money with that. 20:35:35 So if I've got a compiler that injects secret backdoors in everything, then what good will it do to send $15 a month to Verisign so that your browser tries to pretend that I'm secure? 20:35:56 synx: er, what? 20:36:02 that was in a different conversation a while ago 20:36:10 I'm just saying that a backdoor in a compiler would be a huge conspiracy, very vulnerable to leaks. 20:36:24 It wasn't. Did you read the paper? 20:36:56 one person could do it, if they were in the right place 20:37:04 I mean a compiler actually distributed and signed, not somebody's straw man hack version. 20:37:04 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:31 I think that access to the gcc project's build server would be enough 20:37:32 There isn't just one person in that "right place". There are a group of peers who do this thing called peer review. Works good. 20:37:40 Please shut up until you read the paper. 20:38:05 Please don't resort to ad hominem. 20:38:07 I don't see how peer review helps here, since you are never going to commit any source changes back 20:38:27 you are going to modify the binary used to build the official gcc binaries which debian et al use to build their own builds of gcc 20:38:33 at no point do you check in to a repo 20:38:42 This wasn't a straw man. He did this, then subsequently used the backdoor. 20:38:50 yes 20:38:56 kt was a bad man during his early days :) 20:39:37 He did it on his own computer, without fooling anyone. Where does it say in the essay that he got his backdoor in every gcc in the world? 20:39:47 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:39:47 he didn't touch gcc; it didn't even exist at the time 20:39:52 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:40:01 the compromised C compiler did get distributed to other sites, which did then see 'kt' logins 20:40:29 Just some guy looking to be self important. 20:40:46 Huh, really? That must have predated digital signatures too... 20:40:52 ... 20:40:53 digital signatures don't help you here 20:41:02 upon what basis do you think the gcc project applies their signature to a released binary? 20:41:07 Yes, Ken Thompson is "looking to be self important". 20:41:11 Yeesh. 20:41:11 hint: they do not comb through the 30MB of object code by hand 20:41:16 I tire of this discussion. 20:41:18 synx, please be sensible. 20:41:23 they sign it if it got built from their repo on their build farm 20:41:30 You're welcome to be insensible somewhere else, but please be sensible here at least. 20:41:32 if you own the build farm, you own gcc, and they'll still sign it 20:42:21 (as long as you don't get *caught* having owned the build farm, of course) 20:42:27 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:43:34 incubot: disass synx; 20:43:37 disass ;-) 20:44:40 OK I admit you can't have 100% security like I've been claiming all this time. now gtg 20:45:40 do schemes other than chez implement something like "display closures" ? 20:46:05 Not unless you explain what the term means, wingo. 20:46:16 Riastradh: from dybvig's phd thesis 20:46:30 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #scheme 20:46:55 *jcowan* unvanishes 20:47:23 jcowan: ! 20:47:34 Indeed. I have returned from the land of Hospital. 20:47:41 you are not dead? 20:47:49 Oh no. 20:47:52 *jcowan* pinches himself. 20:47:55 Ouch. Quite alive. 20:48:03 that's good! 20:48:06 what were you in hospital for? 20:48:36 I was on IV antibiotics for an infected toe. I still am, but now at home. 20:48:56 For those of us who have not read Dybvig's PhD thesis, wingo, would you care to elaborate, or is this too complicated to be summarized in less space than a PhD dissertation? 20:49:09 -!- rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:49:21 jcowan: ahh, I see 20:49:28 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 20:49:43 Riastradh: instead of ribcage-like closures, just capture in a vector the *values* you capture 20:49:57 unless those values are assigned somewhere, in which case capture them in a box 20:49:59 That can't be right. How do you deal with mutation? 20:50:02 Ah. 20:50:34 What is a "ribcage" closure? 20:50:34 Yes, other Schemes do that, wingo. 20:50:34 chandler, a chain of nested lexical environment frames. 20:50:39 Er, who would use that? 20:50:39 ... each of which is a list of values 20:50:54 Other than ruby, and some other horrible implementations I've seen. 20:51:00 :) 20:51:17 Chains of nested lexical environment frames are easy to implement, so they're what one encounters, for instance, in SICP's metacircular evaluator. 20:51:34 i thought that sounded familiar 20:53:17 is there some sort of efficiency argument for dybvig's innovation? 20:53:46 I don't think `innovation' is the right word; it reduces the amount of storage required and the amount of indirection before one obtains the value when reading the variable. 20:54:00 it was an innovation 20:54:06 ... in 1985 20:54:13 There are two problems with a non-flat representation. The first is the problem of inadvertent capture, which otherwise must be specifically worked around; the other is the time required to walk nested environment frames. 20:54:46 the part that i didn't realize was that you could just copy values around 20:54:49 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.16.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:53 Of course you can, wingo, if they're not assigned. 20:54:57 right 20:55:00 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:56:11 Riastradh: inadvertent capture appears in e.g. unhygienic macros? 20:56:18 *Riastradh* hiccups. 20:56:21 haha 20:56:21 No, totally unrelated. 20:56:23 Consider 20:56:32 (define (foo x y) (write x) (lambda () y)) 20:56:32 *wingo* biab 20:56:54 A naive interpreter will retain the value of X in the closures that FOO returns, while it needs only Y. 20:57:44 interesting; i vaguely remember encountering that with the stacked environment model in sicp 20:58:08 chandler: ribcage closures, AFAIU, don't have variable names in them, so they aren't subject to inadvertent capture. They are just lists of lists of values. 20:58:26 and the references to them are of the form (2 3), the 3rd element of the 2nd rib 20:59:03 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 20:59:12 jcowan: Why are there multiple elements in the rib? 20:59:33 I assume that in (lambda (x y z) ...) the rib has 3 elements, correct? 20:59:39 Yes 21:00:08 klutometis, yes, SICP's metacircular evaluator uses what Dybvig calls ribcage environments. 21:00:19 So if only `y' is referenced in live closures, and the values of `x' and `z' are otherwise garbage, they will still be incorrectly retained, correct? 21:00:30 That is the problem I was trying to describe. 21:00:47 In what sense, incorrect? It may constitute a space leak, I grant. 21:01:47 In the sense of being a substantial space leak, yes. 21:01:53 Riastradh: I'd say, in fact, that capture through unhygienic macros is exactly the same problem as capture through un-lexical binding, but at a different abstraction level. (That is not to say that pedagogically they shouldn't be treated separately.) 21:02:22 You mean capture through dynamic binding? 21:02:53 Yes. 21:03:15 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:03:21 (I simply wanted to maintain syntactic parallelism, with un- compounds in both cases.) 21:05:39 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:05:43 jcowan: I would consider the space leak in this case to be incorrect, as it is fairly easy to write a program which should require only finite space but which actually uses a non-decreasing amount of space due to incorrectly retained values. 21:06:00 *jcowan* nods. 21:06:12 jcowan: that was my intuition, too 21:06:52 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:08:13 wingo, I have some code here dating from 1984 that does precisly what you described -- storing values, not locations of values, of variables that are not assigned in closures. It may not have been named due to its obviousness. 21:09:30 (Also, Dybvig's dissertation was published in 1987, not in 1985.) 21:11:08 I don't think that's what Dybvig meant when he said `display closure', though. 21:11:31 Hmm, perhaps it is. 21:13:22 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-171-173.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:28 Anyway, it's rather common. Even relatively simple-minded Scheme systems such as Scheme48 use flat environment representations. 21:14:01 I would think that was what he meant, given the Algol-60-implementor sense of "display" 21:14:53 Spice Lisp used a flat representation (which was actually stored as a list, not a vector) in 1981. They say they got the design from the MIT Lisp Machine group. 21:15:41 See page 48 of http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/cmu/Spice_Lisp-Internal_Design.pdf . 21:15:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ksyyqd 21:15:52 Algol 60 never requires heap closures, so there is just one display object, the total lexical value map. 21:16:12 Didn't Spice have cdr-coded lists? 21:17:47 Hmm, apparently not. 21:18:30 Wasn't cdr-coding a space efficiency hack only? 21:18:51 Speed, too, if you are dealing with a list whose size you know in advance and where you never rplacd anything. 21:19:11 There were low-level "access the nth element of a compact list" functions 21:19:12 It was not, however, an understandability hack. 21:19:28 s/access/unsafely access 21:20:16 jcowan: How did that work, in the case of finding the nth element of the cdr (or cddr, etc) of a list? 21:20:49 You just blindly assume the list cells are consecutive in memory and take the nth one. 21:21:36 That's what I mean by compact. Cdr-coding is slow without extremely low-level support, but it gives you the speed and space advantages of vectors. 21:21:43 So in those systems, (cdddr '(1)) is a random object from the heap? 21:22:00 well, more like %low-level-cdddr% 21:22:22 as I said, these functions are unsafe, so not normally used by applications 21:22:39 Ah. 21:23:08 But if you know that closures are always constructed as compact lists, you can use the low-level primitives. 21:24:11 Right. 21:25:55 And then, if you are copying code from a system with these low-level hacks to one without, you may not want to bother to change the representation from an ordinary list to av ector. 21:32:27 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:46 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1167.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:50 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1167.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 21:37:39 the lore i heard was that cdr-coding also hurt branch prediction 21:41:44 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.121.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:53 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 21:48:38 danking pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83953 21:49:05 Can someone explain why I get the error "x: pattern variable cannot be used outside of a template in: x" on that code snippet? 21:49:24 I thought #' meant that what I'm about to write _is_ a template. 21:53:47 It does, and at first glance I'm not seeing what the problem is either. 21:56:46 ... Oh. 21:57:08 rudybot: eval (let ((quote 15)) 'a) 21:57:08 chandler: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: a in module: 'program 21:57:30 danking: The situation here is analogous; #'foo is reader syntax for (syntax foo) 21:57:34 You rebound `syntax'. 21:59:02 (Personally, I'm unconvinced this is the right thing to do. Why aren't reader macros hygienic?) 21:59:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:06 wow, that's trickiness 22:00:21 chandler: I "rebound"? 22:00:32 (lambda (syntax) ...) 22:00:33 oh 22:00:34 shit 22:00:54 That would explain why the docs call it syntax-object. 22:01:06 Thanks chandler and wingo 22:03:23 -!- Edico [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:45 I usually use `stx' for this reason. 22:06:04 windows7_yow [i=d11f2105@gateway/web/freenode/x-e066ce2f00b613d0] has joined #scheme 22:06:06 hi 22:08:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:39 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 22:10:59 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:11:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:24 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:16:15 well 22:22:11 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8151.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 22:22:44 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:26:37 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:00 danking pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83957 22:27:40 So I understand that this is a problem with scope, but how do I bind the bar that is referenced in '(add1 bar)'? 22:28:02 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:48 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:11 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #scheme 22:40:05 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1167.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:45 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:56:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:58:08 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:58:27 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 22:58:39 chandler: That will not be easy. 22:58:56 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:59:02 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:06 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 23:03:57 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 23:15:10 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:16:56 schemer 23:22:59 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:38 windows7_yow: Huh? 23:30:04 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 23:30:10 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:49 eli: I don't understand why it's not easy. 23:32:02 danking: Why did you set such a short expiration on that paste? I can't see it anymore. 23:36:28 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 23:40:54 -!- wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:45:33 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:52:40 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]