00:01:01 please, profile it; div, sin and cos may be dwarfed by the overhead of scheme 00:01:23 of course 00:01:27 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 00:01:39 you'll probably get better results from a better compiler, for one 00:02:14 but seems its hard to beat the environment that plt scheme provides 00:02:23 tried to learn emacs, got a headache 00:02:41 mostly because it's just damn buggy on win32 00:02:47 ... it is? 00:04:06 more buggy than any other text editor that i've used in recent history, harder to use and comes with defaults that cause fits of rage 00:05:29 ambient: I'm not trying to steer you away from PLT, just commenting that obsessing about instruction cycle counts is counterproductive even on mzscheme's native compiler 00:05:56 likewise, for any other scheme compiler I can think of 00:06:06 not obsessing, was just responding to the previously stated claim that div and sin in x87 is slow, completely unrelated to what im doing with scheme right now 00:06:07 ... our compilers still suck 00:06:24 ok 00:07:25 zbigniew: Whose compilers still suck? 00:07:28 sbcl looks pretty good thou, on the performance department 00:07:30 zbigniew: What compilers are you using? 00:08:10 arcfide: ones i don't have to pay for 00:08:21 ambient: sbcl is common lisp 00:08:51 im aware of that, and as it is lisp, one would imagine that it's not impossible to do the same performance enhancements for scheme 00:10:07 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:18 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.16.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:32 ambient: Scheme has some fast compilers. 00:11:53 gambit and stalin are those im aware of, just havent tested them 00:12:53 as i prototype my program in plt first i can just cut & paste the logical module into both and do some benchmarking 00:13:08 *logical core of my application 00:13:18 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:13:35 ambient: The Chicken folks usually try to improve their compiler speed; Bigloo can generate some fast code, but by default it doesn't run in "Scheme" mode, I think. Gambit is also fast, as is Stalin, and even MzScheme isn't slow. I use Chez, but that's commercial. 00:16:38 What's a good name for a procedure which takes a socket-address and converts it to the C equivalent? 00:17:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:06 you mean an ip address to a sockaddr* ? 00:18:33 jonrafkind: I mean, some generic socket-address -> foreign socket-address structure. 00:18:40 'convert-socket-address'? 00:19:11 local->foreign or something? 00:19:22 'socket-address->foreign'? 00:19:31 I think it's a good idea to indicate the direction of the conversion in the name 00:20:12 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:20:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:22:14 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:43 noteventime [n=tilo@c-299ce355.74-21-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:34:29 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:42 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 00:34:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:35:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:45:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:47:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:26 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:01:59 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:32 chylli [n=lchangyi@60.211.218.227] has joined #scheme 01:05:33 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:46 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:55 SRFI-4 homogenous vectors look good for numerical calculation speedups 01:09:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 01:09:37 ambient, look up all the SRFIs that Aubrey Jaffer wrote. 01:09:48 ambient, I suspect they may tickle your fancy. 01:09:53 ok, will do 01:10:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:39 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:17:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c0a876f53954a057] has quit [Broken pipe] 01:17:49 arcfide: Chibi is no longer a toy. 01:19:23 ... and when I called it a toy, I was implying tinyscheme and guile and a number of other Schemes were toys anyway. 01:19:56 Who ever said that toys can't be serious things? 01:20:14 why is chibi no longer a toy? 01:20:50 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:20:54 well, it depends again on your definition of toy :) 01:20:57 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-253-178-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 01:21:06 do you mean it is no longer fun? 01:21:11 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-253-178-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:15 No, it's still fun, it's just that when I tongue-in-cheek called it a toy myself I didn't expect people to dismiss it as a "toy." 01:22:50 oh 01:22:59 you should describe it as "industrial-strength" 01:23:12 Enterprise Chibi 01:23:29 "amusement-park-grade" 01:23:35 :) 01:23:40 foof: Chibi# 01:23:45 are carnies included? 01:23:52 call-with-current-chibi 01:23:56 do they speak in their weird carny language? 01:24:02 call-with-currant-jam 01:24:15 call-with-escape-from-current-jab 01:24:18 Chibi ClusterGuard 01:24:18 er, jam 01:24:31 call-with-cell-phone 01:24:44 call-911-for-emergency 01:24:53 call-now-operators-standing-by 01:25:05 call-foof-to-complain 01:25:15 call-you-on-carpet 01:25:17 call-the-kids-in-for-dinner 01:25:19 (call-foof-to-complain (lambda (foof) (...))) 01:25:39 call-with-current-bluff! 01:25:41 call-the-president-at-three-in-the-morning 01:25:45 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:26:09 call-to-arms 01:26:29 call-in-the-cows 01:26:49 call-a-code 01:26:57 call-with-care-bear-cousins 01:27:06 call-if-you-really-care 01:27:13 call-pennsylvania-6-5000 01:27:17 this is getting out of hand :P 01:27:25 :) 01:27:29 (: 01:27:34 :) 01:27:50 Elly: call-it-a-creativity-exercise 01:28:04 chandler: indeed! 01:28:12 chandler: free(association); /* C style */ 01:28:25 rudybot: eval (display #\u266c) 01:28:26 zbigniew: your sandbox is ready 01:28:26 zbigniew: ; stdout: "" 01:29:12 calling-all-cars 01:29:37 (call-foof-collect-from-hawaii) 01:30:09 (and (call-within-the-next-fifteen-minutes) (you-will-receive-a-free-set-of-steak-knives)) 01:31:12 call-your-agent-today 01:31:30 call-dick-cheney-a-supervillain 01:31:39 foof: release a chibi with an ffi! 01:31:47 call-me-names 01:32:02 call-me-Ishmael 01:32:06 (call-me-crazy-but (lambda ...)) 01:32:16 benny-if-you-call-me-you-can-call-me-Al 01:33:09 |don't-call-us-we'll-call-you| 01:33:26 don't-call-it-a-comeback 01:33:31 |i'm-peter-francis-geraci-call-for-my-bankruptcy-info-tapes| 01:33:48 call-trops-puncture-car-tires 01:34:01 Ow, gnomon. 01:34:13 Yeah, that one was a stretch. 01:34:42 zbigniew: Is that a thing outside the Chicago area, or are you somewhere around here? 01:35:00 chandler: Chicagoland only :) 01:35:17 call-588-2300-empire 01:35:40 in the days before it was an 800 # 01:36:23 in the days before the 312/773 and 708/847/630/etc split 01:36:51 yep... i feel old 01:37:00 I'm not old, and I remember that 01:37:44 but if you're old, you'll like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gONtHIYimyo 01:39:06 neat... koz is so young 01:39:21 Elly: The next release will have an FFI, I need it to interface 9p. 01:39:43 well, you need file I/O to interface with 9p 01:40:58 I'll need FFI to provide a 9p server. 01:41:23 ... and process management, and filesystem tools. 01:42:07 yep 01:51:03 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-233-162.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:53:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:00:16 So I'm torn on Scheme48 module system compatibility. 02:01:39 The fact that Scheme48 modules are first class objects in the config namespace makes it hard to have a hierarchical namespace, short of using a convention like "foo.bar". 02:01:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:02:14 What's wrong with conventions? They're usually pretty useful, the food tends to be at least OK, sometimes there's an open bar... 02:02:39 But the namespace usage also just bothers me because it means there's effectively a set of restricted keywords you can't use for module names. 02:03:28 It just seems to me this is one area you _really_ want a separate namespace. 02:04:01 On the other hand, if every module name has at least one dot in it by convention, then there would never be any conflicts. 02:06:24 -!- Nshag [n=nshag@pro77-1-88-176-235-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["(( (x) (x x)) ( (x) (x x)))"] 02:08:39 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 02:08:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:38 twb [n=twb@nat064.cyber.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:13:44 Where's the style guide? 02:13:54 Specifically, the part that explains how many semis to use for different kinds of comment. 02:14:23 -!- tnovelli [n=tom@pool-74-106-78-85.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:14:49 Here we go: http://community.schemewiki.org/?comment-style 02:27:31 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:04 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:30:19 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:49:57 Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 02:52:56 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176219096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:58:51 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:01:13 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-253-178-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 03:03:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:06:00 i'm at this R conference right now in copenhagen, and somebody mentioned that they would have written their R-to-lisp bridge in scheme if something like CPAN for scheme existed 03:06:32 i mentioned that chicken had a chicken-setup for downloading packages, but he was unimpressed since it was chicken-specific 03:07:24 i imagine writing a generalized CSAN across implementations would be a hideous undertaking 03:07:29 -!- twb [n=twb@nat064.cyber.com.au] has left #scheme 03:07:36 isn't arcfide attempting something similar? 03:09:00 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176213151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:17 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:09 nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 03:14:11 Afternoon, folks. 03:14:32 I was wondering if anyone here has had any issues with scsh? 03:14:40 Or, would mind sharing their experience with it, if they used it. 03:14:45 I'm considering using scsh over bash 03:15:33 klutometis: Many people have attempted this :) 03:15:42 elderK: SCSH is dead 03:16:13 Just use any Scheme with POSIX bindings. 03:17:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:57 Alrighty. 03:26:44 Thanks man 03:33:35 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@60.211.218.227] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:03 elderK: yeah. scsh is a thing of beauty, but it's dog-low and not all that useful 03:35:04 offby1, memo from rudybot: minion told me to tell you: hi: yo 03:35:19 *offby1* tells rudybot to tell minion: sup 03:35:31 *foof* prefers cat-high schemes 03:36:36 *ahem* 03:36:39 dog-slow 03:42:58 foof: has anyone documented the graveyard of attempts? 03:43:14 Not that I know of... 03:43:18 this guy was from a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical joint 03:43:23 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.235] has joined #scheme 03:43:30 it would be nice to have scheme kicking around in big biz 03:44:44 foof: are you thinking of e.g. snowfort? http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/ 03:46:18 klutometis: I'm thinking of slib (not actually a proper CSAN attempt), snow, common-scheme, spells, and arcfide's thing, off the top of my head. 03:46:40 what's spells? 03:46:50 rotty's attempt 03:47:50 you mean things like CPAN 03:47:55 er, like CPAN for scheme? 03:48:01 yeah 03:48:19 PLaneT? 03:48:44 No, that's very PLT-specific. 03:49:11 PLT and Chicken have large active repositories just for their own users. 03:49:28 yeah 03:49:35 Gauche started on the infrastructure with a packaging system, but I don't think there's a central repo anywhere. 03:49:45 well, is writing scheme code to do useful things portably easy? 03:50:09 It depends on what you want to do, and what you mean by "easy" :) 03:50:12 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:50:23 well like 03:50:27 all we need is a couple people from each impl. to put something together 03:50:27 In general, no, not really. 03:50:43 looking through PLaneT and the Chicken one and trying to make the big packages portable would be a start 03:53:13 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:53:55 klutometis: People who insists on a generic "portable Scheme" kind of code for a real-world task are either (a) very familiar with Schemes and know the kind of work that this implies; or (b) unaware of "Scheme" being mostly a theoretical concept that loosely relates a bunch of implementations and is not useful for much in itself. 03:54:10 klutometis: and it sounds like you ran into a (b) case. 04:12:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:14:17 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:21:08 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:29 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 04:27:47 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.12.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:29 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:34:00 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.45.63] has joined #scheme 04:35:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:31 Wow, even medical journals make references to SICP today. :-) 04:48:35 why would they? 04:49:40 The paper's name is "Refactoring bacteriophage T7" :-) 04:50:38 cool, we may all have jobs one day! 04:55:23 But it's kind of creepy. 04:55:36 "To test our initial design, we replaced the left 11 515 base pairs (bp) of the 39 937 bp wild-type genome with 12 179 bp of engineered DNA." 04:55:58 "The resulting chimeric genome encodes a viable bacteriophage that appears to maintain key features of the original while being simpler to model and easier to manipulate." 04:56:01 that sounds cool, well fascinating rather 04:56:34 so they making the bacteriophage 'dumber' ? 04:59:58 Looks to me like they're making whoever reads the paragraph that references SICP dumber. 05:16:45 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-d7dfcc49bb9845e9] has joined #scheme 05:30:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:33:00 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:29 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-253-178-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:02 They wrote a Scheme to DNA compiler and are now using that to program a virus. 06:00:51 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 06:02:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 06:31:18 arcfide: that paste you made yesterday, you can clean it up a lot 06:31:52 arcfide: and what is with that (meta ...) thing? I have never seen that 06:34:30 leppie: I am sure I could clean it up, I'm wondering how, though. 06:35:47 leppie|work: 'meta' is a Chez syntax that "tells the expander that any variable definition resulting from the definition is to be an expand-time definition." 06:36:11 leppie|work: Do you have any specific recommendations for cleaning it up? 06:36:12 ahh ok, never seen that extension anywhere else 06:36:25 yes, do you have the paste addy again? 06:36:34 It just lets me define my helpers without having to do weird things. I find it easier to read in this case. 06:36:55 what is weird about having the definitions inside the macro or library? 06:37:25 anycase, thats just style :) 06:37:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83493 06:39:34 you can combine #'(c1 c2 ...) => #'(c ...) and same for #'(name1 name2 ...) => #'(name ...) as you already did the 1 or more check 06:40:49 Do you mean in the helper macro? 06:41:25 'bulid-enum-and-indexer'? 06:42:34 yes 06:42:56 and you can do it in the other one too, does it really need another check or will it be used external? 06:44:07 ok, I was seeing it wrong way arounf 06:44:38 but the same thing goes 06:44:38 leppie|work: Yes, I want that check to be there, because I don't want to try to create an empty enumeration. 06:45:09 yes, good for exported macro, needless for the helper one 06:47:48 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:42 leppie|work: Is that the only critique you have? I was hoping there would be some structural changes I could make to make the code easier to read or improve the reliability of the macro or something. 06:53:49 Although that name one does help it read a little better. 07:00:14 -!- Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #scheme 07:00:30 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056ECD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:01:25 yeah about it, I am not to sure what the code is meant to do 07:01:57 invoking gcc sounds rather drastic 07:03:54 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:17:13 leppie|work: The code is designed to eliminate or greatly reduce the need for C stub files when writing code that interfacing with foreign interfaces. 07:17:22 At least, it reduces one aspect of writing foreign code. 07:18:25 It defines an enumeration that has the given constants defined with it, and an indexer which returns a specific value which is computed at expansion time from a generate C file. 07:19:57 Thus, since the value is computed and saved at expansion time, it is not necessary to have the stub file when one loads the precompiled binary. 07:20:24 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:28:08 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056ECD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:30:22 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 07:49:57 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:02:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:04:41 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-253-178-70.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 08:05:13 -!- tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:10:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:07 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.253] has joined #scheme 08:19:32 tonyg [n=tonyg@host238.lshift.net] has joined #scheme 08:32:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-131.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 08:39:22 -!- 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known as Narrenschiff 12:27:14 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 12:54:46 klutometis: this is precisely why Scheme implementations that want to become popular need to drop the name 'Scheme' 12:55:04 Don't even mention it anywhere 12:56:56 -!- noteventime [n=tilo@c-299ce355.74-21-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 12:59:57 hah 13:00:10 way too scary for the masses 13:04:32 "Performs tail-call optimization--not unlike Scheme--to speed up your business logic!" 13:04:49 "Happens to conform to R5RS!" 13:04:54 where can I get me some of that? 13:05:52 I dunno. That level of marketing hasn't been invented yet. 13:16:44 It's also got to use curly braces and not parestheses, just to appease the JS/Ruby crowd. :-P 13:16:58 *parentheses 13:18:01 rudybot: eval (mcons 1 2) 13:18:01 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 13:18:01 *offby1: ; Value: {1 . 2} 13:18:04 like that? 13:19:14 heh 13:19:46 :-P 13:21:48 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Rebooting...wish Ubuntu comes up with less updates that require reboots...."] 13:24:39 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:26:18 Hey guys, anyone here read the Abstract heresies blog? 13:26:20 It's quite interesting. 13:26:20 :) 13:27:35 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:27:39 sounds dimly familiar. 13:28:13 oh yeah -- Joe Marshall 13:28:20 I loved his recent series about analyzing some data 13:29:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:29:26 linky? 13:30:01 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 13:30:18 http://funcall.blogspot.com/2009/04/some-lisp-machine-minutia.html 13:30:19 :) 13:30:31 That's the one I'm reading now. 13:30:39 offby1, you know any other neat blogs like Joes? 13:30:50 elderK: you've got to be kidding 13:30:50 It's becoming a new habit of mine, reading blogs like this. 13:30:52 It's crazy. 13:30:59 I never would have considered doing this a year ago... 13:31:06 I probably have 200 blogs on my reading list 13:31:09 heh. 13:31:15 :P Would you mind mailing some of them to me? 13:31:26 try steve yegge (he's easy to google) 13:31:37 Cheers. 13:31:45 Reading stuff like this just makes me want to implement a compiler :P 13:31:46 lol 13:32:09 I wonder what dtp means, I figure something like "dynamic tail procedure" ? 13:32:14 or dynamic * procedure... 13:32:16 I dont know. 13:32:16 :) 13:32:20 http://danweinreb.org/blog 13:32:37 :) Marked. 13:32:38 thanks man 13:33:06 http://technomancy.us/ 13:33:16 hahahah 13:33:19 awesome logo 13:33:19 :D 13:33:21 lol 13:33:23 HCF 13:33:25 :P 13:33:27 halt'n'catch fire! 13:33:29 :D 13:33:55 http://blog.mwolson.org/ 13:34:41 those three are pretty inactive 13:35:05 :) Still, it's something I can digest over the coming weeks. 13:35:06 :) 13:37:35 wow, like an old fruitcake 13:41:02 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:43 Night people! 13:41:46 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-133-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:11 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 13:42:12 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:43:16 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:47:00 higepon998 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:58:08 sayyestolife [n=yakov@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 13:58:19 hm 13:58:55 I'd like to create simple lists within certain ranges like, (in haskell it would be like [1..10]), is there anything similar in scheme? 13:59:37 reprore [n=reprore@131.112.172.195] has joined #scheme 13:59:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@131.112.172.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:23 srfi-1 iota 14:00:33 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 values) 14:00:33 *offby1: ; Value: (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) 14:00:34 -!- higepon998 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:40 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 add1) 14:00:41 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 14:00:42 etc 14:00:55 higepon213 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:01:04 sayyestolife: PLT scheme also has lots of "comprehensions". e.g. 14:01:08 rudybot: doc for/list 14:01:08 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/for.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fbase..ss)._for%2Flist)) 14:01:22 ah thanks 14:01:48 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 14:04:34 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:05:07 there are also some comprehensions in some SRFI or other. 14:05:14 I think our own foof created them 14:05:20 or maybe it was Riastradh ... 14:07:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 14:08:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:23 hm.. 14:10:53 but I'm looking for something really simple, all those mentioned above look very powerfull but also too much for what I need 14:11:09 I mean, all I want is a list that goes from n to m 14:13:20 do it then 14:13:25 incubot: (iota 13 3 2) 14:13:25 (3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25 27) 14:13:42 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Rebooting again. :-P"] 14:14:00 incubot: (iota 13 1) 14:14:01 (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13) 14:14:03 oh 14:14:05 sweet 14:14:30 well, iota is pretty simple. 14:14:32 so is build-list 14:14:54 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 14:14:54 as ski said it's in srfi-1... if your scheme implementation supports it. 14:14:55 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:14:58 rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) 14:15:08 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 iota) 14:15:09 *offby1: ; Value: (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3 4) (0 1 2 3 4 5) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)) 14:15:15 yea, got it, thanks :) 14:15:43 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 (lambda (n) (build-list n iota))) 14:15:43 *offby1: ; Value: (() (()) (() (0)) (() (0) (0 1)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3 4)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3 4) (0 1 2 3 4 5)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3 4) (0 1 2 3 4 5) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6)) (() (0) (0 1) (0 1 2) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3 4) (0 1 2 3 4 5) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7))) 14:15:47 *offby1* ducks 14:15:50 :o 14:17:16 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:17:47 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:56 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:19 -!- `Peter [n=pk@chello080109097201.14.15.tuwien.teleweb.at] has quit [] 14:24:02 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 14:26:10 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:36:07 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:12 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 14:48:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:51:37 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:56:54 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:04 -!- higepon213 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:08 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:08:35 camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:12:27 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:45 HG` [n=wells@xdslgk008.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:15:48 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 15:39:25 -!- sayyestolife [n=yakov@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 15:45:55 a-s` [n=user@92.81.46.25] has joined #scheme 15:51:55 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 15:56:45 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:19 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has joined #scheme 16:14:30 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:17:03 `Peter [n=pk@chello080109097201.14.15.tuwien.teleweb.at] has joined #scheme 16:22:30 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.6.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-224.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:08 ventonegro [n=alex@li17-123.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:28:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-17.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:29:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:34:07 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@li17-123.members.linode.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:34:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 16:39:17 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:05 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:43:39 -!- ubuntuella [n=karen@blee.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1b51876c5e43b0d6] has joined #scheme 16:46:14 fingo_ [n=maxim@206-248-157-12.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:54 Hello everyone! I have a plt specific question, is this the right place to ask it, or is there a plt channel? 16:49:19 In general, it's a better idea to just ask your question rather than to prefix it with leading questions, but thanks for the courtesy :) Just go ahead and ask, sir! 16:49:45 There is a PLT-specific channel: #plt-scheme 16:50:12 chandler: oh! I tried #plt and got booted because it was invite only 16:50:56 and I'm apparantly not authorized to be in #plt-scheme either 16:51:17 fingo_, have you registered your nickname with Freenode yet? 16:51:28 Ah, yes, I suppose you have. 16:53:37 anyways, what I'm trying to do is create a macro to auto-generate getters and setters for me for plt's class system. I was able to use generate-tokens to make a bunch of getter functions, but I can't find a way to recover them later. What I really want is to have a macro s.t (generate-getters-setters foo bar baz) will do define/public get-foo set-foo etc.... 16:54:34 it seems non-trivial to do that though. Is there a better way to make such a macro? 16:58:14 ..it will probably help if I put up some code. http://scheme.pastebin.com/m133855a9 as you can see I have the methods I need, but they are called x1 instead of get-x, y2 instead of get-y etc.... 17:01:16 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:28 lisppaste: url? 17:02:29 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 17:02:34 (for future pastes) 17:04:46 fingo_ pasted "define/accessible macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83584 17:05:14 chandler: sorry, I'll use this from now on. 17:05:24 thanks, that's easier to read :-) 17:06:02 Why are you using `generate-temporaries' to define your getter methods? 17:06:38 I can't call them because that identifier is already taken 17:06:50 Is there a better way to generate an identifier from another? 17:06:56 Right, but you said that you wanted to call them get-, if I'm following you correctly. 17:07:48 Which would mean that you need to use syntax->datum to get the symbol used as the name for each field, then build up a new symbol, and use syntax->datum to associate it with the right hygienic context. 17:09:04 I think that would be the missing key. I wrote a string->literal function a while back to convert "(foo bar baz)" to '(foo bar baz) and I was really hoping to avoid having to do something like that 17:10:13 so syntax->datum will make foo into 'foo right? Do I have to convert to string to prepend 'get- to 'foo or can I do it with symbols? 17:14:02 chandler pasted "creating accessors with datum->syntax" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83585 17:14:12 fingo_: sorry, I thought it'd be easier to have an example at hand 17:14:30 (define/accessors x 1) defines x, get-x and set-x 17:15:02 In order to do so, we need to get "x" as a string, not as a syntax object. That's done via (symbol->string (syntax->datum #'name)) here. 17:15:20 (I should probably have added a fender to make sure that name was a symbol, but oh well.) 17:15:43 Then, I create two symbols by appending "get-" and "set-" to the name symbol. 17:16:13 what's a fender 17:16:16 (Yes, a conversion to a string is necessary here; there might be some procedure in PLT lurking to do this directly, but ultimately it would convert to strings too.) 17:16:42 A fender is a guard in a syntax-case rule that determines whether or not that rule should match. 17:17:00 Right now, (define/accessors (f) 1) will result in an error because (f) is not a symbol. 17:17:05 thanks a lot by the way, this is exactly what I was looking for 17:17:23 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:25 do I write it with a regular if or do I need a special syntax for a fender? 17:17:37 It should be a form that returns a boolean. Hold on, I'll paste an example. 17:17:55 chandler annotated #83585 "added a fender" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83585#1 17:18:08 The fender here is (symbol? (syntax->datum #'name)) 17:18:25 hiffy [n=phillmv@okayfail.com] has joined #scheme 17:18:30 With that added, (define-syntax (f) 1) results in a bad syntax error, not an error about (f) not being a symbol. 17:19:07 Anyway, once I've got the get- and set- symbols, they need to be turned into syntax, which means that they need to be associated with a hygienic context. 17:19:16 In this case, that context comes from the name. 17:22:46 If I used #f for the context in the call to datum->syntax, no context information would be supplied at all. 17:23:27 I'm not quite sure I follow about association with hygenic contexts. My (naive) assumption about hygenic macros was that they existed in the lexical scope they were defined in 17:23:32 is this completely wrong? 17:24:07 or better put --- what does a hygenic context determine 17:25:05 datum->syntax exists to bend the rules of hygiene. Without it, you wouldn't be able to create this kind of macro. 17:26:07 In order to convert a datum into syntax, some piece of information must be associated with the datum to determine the lexical environment in which it is defined. 17:26:30 That information comes from the first argument to datum->syntax. 17:26:53 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:11 (datum->syntax #'foo bar) means "convert bar into syntax as if it occurred at the same lexical point as foo" 17:27:26 so if I had some global variable foo, and I passed it to the first argument of datum-> syntax, then my getters and setters would exist globally? 17:30:03 It depends. If the call to define/accessors was itself at the top level, yes. If it was an internal definition, no; it would still behave as an internal definition. 17:31:46 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-17.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:13 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:32:22 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:34:47 -!- `Peter [n=pk@chello080109097201.14.15.tuwien.teleweb.at] has quit [] 17:37:48 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:52 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:01 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:48:26 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-135-197.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:29 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:59 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:52:44 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-242-28.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 17:54:00 is it possible to use datum->syntax outside of a syntax-case enviroment? 17:59:53 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:33 -!- fingo_ [n=maxim@206-248-157-12.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:57 bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has joined #scheme 18:02:05 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:02:46 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 18:04:23 fingo_ [n=maxim@69-165-161-251.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 18:06:14 fingo_: yes 18:06:16 not really useful, but yes. 18:07:47 sorry I just disconnected 18:08:14 np 18:08:14 I was asking as to how to give an identifier I created with datum->syntax a value 18:08:58 synx pasted "syntax-case etc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83591 18:09:00 say (define (datum->syntax #f 'foo) 42) doesn't create a variable foo with the value 42 18:09:44 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 18:09:48 Right, because you already entered the evaluation stage, so syntaxes aren't usable anymore. 18:11:23 right so if I want to do that I basically need to be in a macro 18:11:39 synx: was the paste you put up for me or someone else? 18:11:54 for you 18:12:10 everyone else in this channel is idle :p 18:12:22 haha touche 18:12:30 I don't quite follow what you are demonstrating there 18:12:32 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:42 You want to do that in the syntax phase, but I wouldn't use an unhygenic macro. 18:13:08 I'm demonstrating that it's possible to use datum->syntax in the evaluation phase. 18:13:18 In...semi-useful ways. 18:14:06 right. I just can't figure our when the nope case would happen. 18:14:33 suppose datum->syntax didn't work in that phase, how would you get (a b)? 18:17:13 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:38 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:20:49 Oh the nope case will never happen, I just threw that in 18:20:56 In a real world situation, I would pass more than one datum to that expression, so that syntax-case could do different things. 18:23:20 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:23:46 synx: thanks. I thought you were demonstrating a test for whether datum->syntax could work, and got very confused. 18:24:39 All I'm trying to do is create some test cases to see how lexical scope is determined for hygenic macros, I guess I will just wrap everything in define-syntax 18:24:50 sorry I should have just left it by itself. 18:25:35 shaunxcode [n=shaungil@nat/yahoo/x-dd6a01884c148cf5] has joined #scheme 18:26:32 define-syntax makes what they call a "transformer binding". Such a thing transforms the current syntax into a different syntax. 18:27:12 So #'(bleep a b) could become #'(if a b #f) for instance. 18:27:53 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:29:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:39:17 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:36 ubuntuella [n=karen@blee.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:51:51 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:37 -!- underspecified [n=underspe@leopard175.naist.jp] has quit [] 18:56:20 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:57:04 -!- bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has left #scheme 19:02:20 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-d7dfcc49bb9845e9] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:03:01 wingo [n=wingo@175.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:21:32 VonGuard [n=sunker@64.81.52.25] has joined #scheme 19:21:35 -!- VonGuard [n=sunker@64.81.52.25] has left #scheme 19:25:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:28:42 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:50 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 19:29:01 -!- Sveklo2 [n=sveklo@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:46 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:46 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:29:48 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 19:29:51 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 19:29:51 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:29:54 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:29:54 Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 19:29:55 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:10 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:37 TR2N [i=email@89-180-180-228.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 19:31:01 beutdeuce [n=Mark@cpe-74-68-50-157.nj.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:32:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:19 is scheme prefix or infix? 19:33:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:47 -!- ubuntuella [n=karen@blee.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:33:57 the former. 19:34:00 beutdeuce, the default Scheme syntax is mostly prefix. 19:34:26 Macros let you superimpose whatever syntax ad-hocery you feel is best. 19:35:13 gnomon, i'm using DrScheme, how would i be able to apply an infix macro? 19:35:34 sladegen, R5RS syntax isn't purely prefix: for example, there is COND's option => form. 19:35:40 "optional", even. 19:36:07 beutdeuce, you would have to write said infix macro first, and then use it as you would use any other Scheme expression 19:37:16 if you are using R6RS, there is currently a discusion on exactly that on ikarus's mailing list 19:37:39 rudybot: eval (let-syntax ((infix (syntax-rules () ((_ (op1 op op2)) (op op1 op2))))) (infix (2 + 2))) 19:37:39 sladegen: ; Value: 4 19:37:57 There is also http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=infix.plt&owner=dyoo 19:38:27 (though note that it was written as a joke: http://www.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2006-December/015599.html ) 19:38:56 k 19:40:57 There is also the horrible, horrible hack in PLT of (2 . + . 2) 19:41:42 tell us what you really thing chandler :) 19:41:45 *think 19:42:05 i just began looking into Scheme and I can't seem to find any information as to what Scheme is primarily designed for. I am coming from a haskell and OOP background. 19:42:37 scheme used to be designed for minimalism. 19:43:50 used to be? 19:44:09 r6rs "bloated" it 4-5 fold. 19:44:16 what does Scheme have to offer in terms of functional programming languages like Haskell 19:44:28 sane syntax 19:44:45 haskell is sane, isnt it? 19:44:52 sladegen: it didnt extend the language really, just the libraries :) 19:45:03 no, it's insane. 19:45:11 sladegen, how so? 19:45:14 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-139-207.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:39 just look at it... perlish line-noise. 19:47:35 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 19:47:50 Just wondering...is there a free scheme library for working with graph/network nodes? 19:49:56 haskell has hackage, does Scheme have some form of a package manager? 19:50:19 no 19:50:53 Particular Scheme implementations do; for instance, PLT has PLaneT 19:51:39 Does hackage work for every implementation of haskell? 19:51:57 chandler, i'm in doctor scheme, the different languages available confuses me 19:52:15 beutdeuce: stop comparing what you know with what you're learning if you want to make good, untainted progress 19:52:52 beutdeuce, the language levels in DrScheme confuse many new students. What are you trying to do? 19:54:09 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:20 s 19:56:03 gnomon, learn scheme 19:56:27 Set your language level to "module" and forget it. 19:56:52 i'm getting "reference before defintion 19:56:56 errors a lot 19:57:39 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:49 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 20:01:23 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:18 -!- beutdeuce [n=Mark@cpe-74-68-50-157.nj.res.rr.com] has quit ["Read error: 1.732050808 (Excessive square root of 3)"] 20:11:33 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:14:08 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:18:14 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:26:15 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:28:05 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:28:10 -!- khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:58 -!- wingo [n=wingo@175.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:00 wingo [n=wingo@201.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:39 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:46:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgk008.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:07 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.151] has left #scheme 20:48:27 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:52:45 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 20:53:12 -!- camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:55:38 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:48 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:56:59 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:01:51 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:26 Is there any keybinding for Complete Word in DrScheme when keybindings in menus are disabled? 21:15:58 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17:08 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 21:19:07 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:19 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:27:48 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 21:29:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:37:54 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:38:00 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:50:12 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:14 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:57:17 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-194.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:02:41 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:59 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:08 There isn't... 22:27:24 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:28:10 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:17 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 22:28:26 chandler: Why didn't you use ("foo" . string-append . "bar") as an example? 22:28:37 Or even better -- (x . define . 3) 22:28:49 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 22:30:17 chandler: The bottom line is that the infix hack in PLT is used almost exclusively (and I'm only saying "almost" to be careful) for comparisons and for `->' in contracts; two places where prefix notation *suck*. 22:32:55 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:21 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:59 I kind of like -> for prefix notation... I just read it as "this is a procedure" and the last argument is the return value. 22:36:09 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:32 otherwise I look at it and go "what's this?" and only halfway through can I tell "this is a procedure contract" 22:36:56 *Elly* has implemented => as infix notation for a lambda 22:37:18 (well, (fn x y z => ...)) 22:37:21 To be honest I don't think that prefix notation sucks in ordering comparisons. Read it as `increasing?' or `decreasing?' or `nonincreasing?', &c., rather than `...is less than...?', &c. 22:37:25 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:42:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:44 Riastradh: I highly doubt that there's any significant percentage of people who can easily associate "nonincreasing, x and y" with "x is smaller than or equal to y". 22:50:14 synx: a prefix `->' collapses completely when you deal with HO types. 22:51:23 *Riastradh* shrugs. 22:51:25 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:51:33 Works for me. 22:56:55 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:02 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:57:31 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:43 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:57:53 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:59:34 eli: HO types? 23:00:08 Higher order types. 23:00:13 Note that I'm not arguing against sexprs, of course -- they have many more benefits than limitations; and going the other way while keeping first-class-ness gets you Haskell (and even that hack is mostly possible because of their fixed-arity system). 23:00:49 I'm not even arguing against people who say what you (Riastradh) say -- that they can read an write code with comparisons easily -- I've done it for a good number of years, and I'm still doing it. 23:01:20 But actively *arguing* that sexprs with comparisons are *better* is a sign of a "religious irrefutable arguments"; and doing the same for an arrow type indicates a religious fanatic, probably. 23:02:28 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:46 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 23:03:50 eli: could you give an example of how higher order types and prefix -> combine badly? 23:04:57 p1dzkl: Any type. 23:06:19 (-> (-> B) (-> C D E)) -- glance through this, and assuming the type of a foreign C function, quickly say which types are going to be converted from Scheme to C and which ones converted in the other way. 23:12:32 if I understand correctly, your point is that the difference between input and output is not clear 23:12:47 I see 23:20:11 you can make the prefix form clearer, but it would be kind of artificial. infix wins this one. 23:22:20 p1dzkl: Well, it's a simple thing with infix syntax -- being on the left of an arrow means that you're on the negative side, and negatives cancel out as usual. 23:22:36 So in (A -> B) A goes from Scheme to C, and B goes from C to Scheme; in ((-> B) -> (C D -> E)) both B and C,D have one negative, so they go from Scheme to C, and E from C to Scheme. 23:23:03 Add an A here: (A (-> B) -> (C D -> E)) and it's still negative (Scheme to C) and add it here: ((A -> B) -> (C D -> E)) and now it has two negatives so it's positive (C to Scheme) which technically happens because that first function is actually a callback. 23:23:41 The same thing happens with function contracts, for example, and deciding who should be blamed for a particular bad value (the caller or the callee). 23:24:49 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:25:17 -!- shaunxcode [n=shaungil@nat/yahoo/x-dd6a01884c148cf5] has quit [] 23:31:00 I think a prefix form like (-> (A (-> () (B))) ((-> (C D) (E)))) would be clear too, but it's pretty klunky 23:31:56 that's a neat trick by the way 23:37:16 "klunky" is an understatement... 23:37:32 And if by "trick" you mean the negative stuff, then it's pretty standard... 23:37:44 -!- wingo [n=wingo@201.Red-81-38-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:37:49 well, I didn't know about it 23:39:19 Bah. 23:39:32 There's some name for it that I can't remember now. 23:41:58 "tuples"? :-) 23:43:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:12 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:47 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:47:12 No, tuples are unrelated. 23:49:35 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:15 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]