00:00:55 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:12 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:34 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:45 hum. What's the standard way to unpack a .plt archive? 00:05:53 mimencode -u | gunzip | ??? 00:08:28 Fare: You don't want to use the API to unpack it? This seems to be the description of its format: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/setup-plt/_plt-archives.html#(part._format-of-..plt-archives) 00:09:14 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:17 I've done it on an uncompressed .plt archive with base64 -u < archive.plt 00:11:34 what is the command-line api to unpack these files? 00:11:48 Never mind, I already had other files in the directory. 00:11:49 run the "planet" program 00:12:06 offby1, thanks! 00:15:17 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:05 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.16.15] has joined #scheme 00:22:12 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:26:50 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-208-150.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:09 is fmap^ a standard signature for plt units, or just something jay smoked out when writing trie? 00:40:06 fmap :o Functor? 00:40:23 *Fare* wants to extend trie.plt to provide an interface to subtrie -- where is the doc on how to extend/restrict a unit signature? 00:40:40 I think he just meant "(pure) functional map" 00:41:09 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.115.255.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:54 *Elly* does not yet know how to use units, contracts, or signatures 00:44:11 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 00:49:18 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 00:54:24 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59:01 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:01:16 contracts, I know. Units and signatures, not so much. 01:01:24 01:02:25 rudybot: eval (define/contract (frotz n) (-> integer? integer?) (+ 3 n)) 01:02:27 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:02:32 rudybot: eval (frotz 10) 01:02:33 *offby1: ; Value: 13 01:02:35 rudybot: eval (frotz 10/3) 01:02:36 *offby1: error: 'program broke the contract (-> integer? integer?) on frotz; expected , given: 10/3 01:02:51 rudybot: eval (define/contract (frotz n) (-> integer? integer?) 'whoops) 01:02:57 rudybot: eval (frotz 10) 01:02:57 *offby1: error: (function frotz) broke the contract (-> integer? integer?) on frotz; expected , given: whoops 01:04:29 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:07 demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:19:44 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 01:25:32 Fare: If you need to install a planet package, you should use the `planet' CLI; otherwise `setup-plt' will unpack and install a .plt file. Also, neilv's quack will let you open a .plt file and look at its contents. 01:29:20 if it walks like a duck ... 01:32:20 how do I see the license on a planet module? 01:32:26 is there an easy way to find out? 01:33:50 Fare: Just browse the sources and see the license file, if any. 01:34:24 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:34:39 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-147-114.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:24 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:47:51 ok 01:48:08 is there the equivalent of integer-length, ldb, dpb? 01:48:30 i.e. extracting arbitrary-length bytes from bignums? 01:48:55 or to identify the size of fixnums? 01:49:07 (so as to efficiently make those bytes fixnums) 01:51:47 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/numbers.html#(part._.Bitwise_.Operations) 01:52:02 what is the recommended testing infrastructure, if any? 01:52:24 `bitwise-bit-field' is the generic pull-a-bunch-of-bits-out function. 01:53:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-244.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:53:12 There are several testing frameworks. schemeunit is probably the most known one, neilv has another, and I have one too which I hope to one day grow to a proper library. 01:56:55 *Fare* wonders about forking jay's trie.plt 01:57:02 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:12 I think my changes aren't going to be fully compatible. 01:57:35 is there a standard unit signature for maps? 01:58:01 I'm asking lots of stupid questions -- should I just be searching docs.plt-scheme.org instead? 01:58:45 -!- demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:55 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:19 No, there's no standard signature for anything... Unless you plan on reusing code that expects a specific signature -- which makes it your standard... 02:01:00 What if I want the map from prefix to immediate successors in a trie to itself use some parametrized ordered sub-map implementation? Can that be done in a way that provides for a default such implementation (say balanced binary trees)? 02:01:17 so -- PLT is lacking a serious library of units, is that what you're telling me? 02:01:43 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:03:00 No; in the distributed plt tree units are used for specific cases -- for libraries we just use modules. 02:03:04 No PLT has a very serious library of units. Just nobody 'the fuck' understands it. 02:03:26 synx: ? 02:03:51 er, listen to eli I'm just clueless in this respect. 02:04:00 ok -- so all the "functors" that come in the OCaml standard library -- is there an equivalent in PLT? 02:04:25 (would be interesting to automatically import OCaml code into PLT, btw) 02:04:29 describe this "functor" for those of us who haven't used OCaml before... 02:04:48 Fare: no, and yes. 02:04:52 synx: very similar to units ... modules that take other modules as parameters 02:05:57 (I suppose PLT units were actually designed based on the experience of ML higher-order modules) 02:06:10 The thing is that for this kind of parameterized abstraction we have many more tools than OCaml -- besides units, we have the class system and we have "methods" for structs. 02:06:16 A procedure could take a module as a parameter, but I don't think PLT modules take parameters at all... 02:06:27 interestingly, I find that PLT has lots of problems -- but they all look solvable in a nice way. 02:06:35 more like "SMOP"s 02:06:50 synx: PLT modules don't, but PLT units do. 02:07:05 I don't know how much influence there is -- units in PLT are *very* old -- they were the main tool before the module system was added. 02:07:16 And what kind of problems do you see? 02:07:48 eli: holes in the standard library 02:08:00 What holes? 02:08:10 in this case, a good implementation of tries 02:08:25 one problem I see with PLT is the inability to make simple programs. Always a lot of overhead, so that means PLT has limited applicability to many situations. 02:08:29 Why should that be in the standard library? 02:08:29 and as a foundation to it, a good library of maps, etc. 02:08:52 What do you mean by "a good library of maps"? 02:09:00 so that people don't have to search around, invent their own incompatible signatures, etc. 02:09:13 good library of all the common datastructures in general 02:09:30 synx: That is total BS, and completely unfounded, as you have demonstrated over and over and over again. 02:09:30 ...get my maps at the train station. 02:09:47 maybe a good project for undergrads would be to systematically take a book on algorithms and/or the OCaml stdlib, and translate to PLT Scheme. 02:09:55 Fare: Try this: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/dicts.html 02:09:58 eli: I guess that's true. Maybe I just don't know how to do it right. 02:10:40 possibly doing it as part of the "algorithms" class 02:10:49 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:10:52 or something 02:11:12 synx: In general you've shown several times an odd sense of design (eg your 4-server-for-one-website design), so these problems are usually uniqe to you. Generalizing information out of that is bogus. 02:11:48 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:12:09 Fare: What is missing? "trie" is questionable, IMO; but there's not that much stuff that usually goes in stdlibs that is missing. 02:13:38 eli: No actually I'm not complaining about that being PLT's fault. It's my failure at CGI that I see as a limitation where PLT cannot be used effectively. 02:13:43 My frankenstein web server system works great in plt, with occasional freezes, probably from something in the FFI. 02:14:35 What I'm saying is this program: https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/cgitest.ss takes 22 megabytes of RAM to operate. 02:15:13 -!- cky [n=cky@166.165.197.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:15:13 mzscheme uses 17MB of ram just sitting at the repl 02:15:39 There are some good arguments for "large" scheme implementations though, so being unable to use it for CGI isn't something I see as entirely damning. CGI itself kind of sucks... 02:16:19 right, so that makes writing simple programs impossible. There are a lot of fundamental dependencies. 02:17:10 synx: I'd like to see your definition of 'get-bindings'. 02:17:13 chibi-scheme uses 1.2MB sitting at the repl 02:17:42 synx: I'm not the biggest fan of PLT, but what you are saying sounds a little suspicious even for me. And why are you telling the script to sleep for 60 seconds after it runs? 02:18:02 arcfide: it sure wouldn't take up 22 megabytes of memory 02:18:17 synx: Huh? 02:18:20 synx: if you want CGI, use chicken or so 02:18:31 I don't see why mzscheme wouldn't work just fine in CGI. 02:18:36 I'm putting the script to sleep so I can use my tools to measure how much memory it takes. The actual script I was trying just hung, so I simulate that with a sleep. 02:18:36 Elly: (a) The repl comes with a bunch of features that cost memory -- you can run `mzscheme -qI scheme/base', for example to get a smaller footprint; (b) yes, I'm sure chibi-scheme is smaller -- that's hardly surprising given the very long list of features in PLT that it doesn't have. 02:18:55 synx: If your script hangs, that's a bug, not an overhead issue. 02:19:44 eli: Is 'get-bindings' exported from net/cgi? 02:20:39 arcfide: The thing is my script hung, and the webserver spawned another CGI process, which hung, and so on about 50 times before my computer froze and I had to reset. 02:20:39 yes get-bindings is exported from net/cgi 02:21:15 synx: You mean that script that you just pasted hangs and spawns more CGI processes? 02:21:16 eli: oh, yes, I know; neither of those statements was a value judgment about PLT or chibi 02:21:28 but the 22 megabyte memory signature makes small, light CGI processes impossible. Not saying we should have those, but they are impossible. 02:21:33 I was just pointing out that PLT using 22MB for a program is not shocking given that the base library uses 17MB 02:21:47 synx: What makes you think that 22MB is usual for a signature in Mzscheme if properly used for the task? 02:21:53 No arcfide I mean I didn't notice my computer was slowing down while reloading the page until it was too late. Was trying to debug the hang. 02:22:13 Well like I said I might be doing it wrong. I couldn't get the signature any lower. 02:22:24 synx: Did you try to import less? 02:22:31 Elly: I don't see the point. I can write a significantly shorter and simpler program that will be significantly more memory-intensive. I don't see any conclusion to draw from this. 02:22:50 arcfide: net/cgi takes 22 megabytes? 02:23:14 eli: synx asserted in what I took to be a surprised fashion that PLT took 22MB to do something, so I pointed out that PLT takes at least 17MB to do anything. That was the point :P 02:23:14 I haven't tried -ql. I was doing "-n -t" which doesn't work for CGI scripts. 02:23:18 synx: Did you look at the cgi library? -- at the kind of features it has and doesn't have? As usual with any library, loading code costs memory. 02:23:24 synx: I don't know PLT, but somehow I doubt that 22MB is the lowest you can make PLT. 02:24:04 Elly: In fact the 17MB that you pointed to, and the 22MB that synx pointed to are coming from completely different places (one is loading a cgi library and no repl, and one is loading a repl and no cgi library). 02:24:06 synx: I don't know if PLT is like this, but perhaps only loading the functions are you going to use is the way to go. 02:24:16 eli: well, yes :P 02:24:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:24:45 eli: those dictionaries don't seem to have a standard unit interface, do they? 02:24:46 perhaps... 02:24:56 synx: Also, do you need all of scheme/base and net/cgi? 02:25:12 Fare: No, they're using "methods" those -- struct properties. 02:25:14 Is your encantation of mzscheme correct? 02:25:19 s/enc/inc/ 02:25:28 Fare: Like I said, there are several ways to get such abstractions... 02:25:30 I don't think anything gets less than scheme/base... 02:25:31 (Is it trivial to give to a unit as input another unit that has a strictly larger signature than required, and the proper projection will be made?) 02:25:42 synx: Loading less than scheme/base is less than scheme/base. 02:25:52 Using (require (only-in net/cgi get-bindings)) doesn't improve the situation either. 02:26:27 synx: Yes, the whole .zo file is loaded in any case. 02:26:28 without scheme/base you don't even have procedure application, arcfide 02:26:38 Fare: I think so, but you'd need to consult the docs. 02:26:58 eli: I understand. Now the problem is -- I could backtrack into library design, or I could do something quick and dirty to get the job done. 02:27:01 synx: eli just mentioned that you have to load the entire .zo whether you use only one piece or all of them, so my suggestion will not work. 02:27:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:12 synx: No, procedure application is part of the core binary, scheme/base just wraps it. 02:27:31 hm... why does `mzscheme -nqe '((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))'` spit out "function application is not allowed, because no #%app syntax transformer is bound"? 02:27:33 Fare: That depends on your needs. 02:28:01 anyway, my only point is that you can't use PLT to make many independent small lightweight processes. Have to use some other scheme entirely for that, or C. 02:28:01 exactly. 02:28:20 the situation is better than in CL, where you lack the basic mechanisms for abstraction, etc. 02:28:31 but still, unsatisfactory 02:28:40 or, if you figure out how to get mzscheme to do simple CGI without eating up memory, please let me know because I'm unable to figure it out myself. 02:28:44 synx: That isn't true at all. 02:29:03 synx: why do you care about memory, as long as most of it is statically mapped? 02:29:16 synx: I can use Scheme to make very effecient, lightweight processes for CGI. 02:29:17 synx: does it eat a lot of unshared memory? 02:29:27 s/effec/effic/ 02:29:32 arcfide, mzscheme? 02:29:34 Fare: You mean shared memory? I'm talking about Resident Set Size. 02:29:38 Fare: No. 02:29:43 arcfide: I'd love to see how you do it. 02:29:45 Fare: but I do not use mzscheme in general. 02:29:52 wait arcfide I meant PLT, not scheme in general. 02:30:02 synx: Okay. 02:30:16 synx: have you looked at serving pages from the PLT web application framework? 02:30:34 synx: you should substract SHR from RSS to see the marginal increment of memory required by a new proces 02:30:46 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:49 I could use chicken to make a simple lightweight CGI process, probably. But not PLT... 02:30:58 synx: just like you prob don't count the libc as a new cost to each and every process 02:31:31 synx: or you could have something like a modlisp server instead of CGI 02:31:43 Oh good point Fare. It's 20 megabytes then. 2MB is used for shared memory. 02:31:55 well obviously :p 02:32:12 20MB is a lot indeed. 02:32:32 I do use mod_proxy to access a PLT web server. That works fine. CGI however does not. 02:32:49 20MB is a reasonable size if I'm dealing with large uncompressed bitmaps... 02:33:06 But that would be in addition to the 20MB that PLT takes up by itself. 02:33:06 Is anyone familiar with the CVS Tree at ssax.sf.net and the sxml-tools module? 02:33:19 right 02:33:46 It appears they have an updated sxpath, but I haven't been able to figure out the dependency tree and the nature of how the entire package fits together. I'd like to package it up for Chez, but I don't know what the nicest way to do that is compared to the old sxpath, which was just a single file. 02:33:50 why care about CGI, anyway? 02:33:58 Fare: CGI is a valid method for many problems. 02:34:09 Fare: It's simple to implement and it doesn't require a lot of setup. 02:34:31 One of the web servers I was using only implements CGI... and java servlets, but yuck. 02:34:44 you could have a CGI that auto-starts the server to which to trivially proxy requests 02:34:55 why use that server? 02:35:36 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 02:35:38 Because my friends like to use it. <_< 02:35:41 My genius friends who make amazing programming things I wish to use. 02:35:59 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:37:28 you choose your own hell - as we all do 02:37:30 synx: Your point is completely bogus. Language features cost: they cost time and they cost memory. If you don't need such features, you can certainly find smaller langauges. These days, most *sane* programmers prefer having more features since they value the human resource as the top priority. On the other end of the spectrum you have people writing compressed assembly and people who like to slam their car's door 02:37:30 on their fingers every morning. 02:37:57 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.184.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:11 "when your hammer is C++, everything looks like a thumb" 02:39:00 Elly: Because you explicitly prevented it from loading any bindings, including the one for function applications -- but the *ability* to apply functions is, of course, still part of the binary. 02:39:06 I still think self modifying assembly code is a valid way to do the equivalent task of a JIT compiler. 02:39:35 it's only a hypothesis though. 02:39:37 synx: You should use the NULL programming language. You'd love it. 02:40:06 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:40:08 (synx: and yes, your opinions on "JIT" and "self modifying assembly code" are still bogus.) 02:40:15 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:00 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:41:02 how are they bogus? You could write assembler to produce assembler, except it'd write into its own programming space instead of to a virtual processor. 02:41:19 then you could tailor the native code it wrote according to the situation at the time. 02:41:39 synx: self-modifying assembly code can be very expensive on a lot of architectures 02:41:46 (think: flushing the code cache) 02:42:06 synx: There was a long discussion on your misconception a short while ago. I'll avoid getting into it. 02:42:16 well, normally it's not allowed at all. mutable code means you can't share it between processes, and it's also seen as a security risk. 02:43:10 eli: The discussion was on the validity of runtime native code generation itself, which was proven rather nicely. I'm just claiming you can use native code to produce it, rather than a compiler in some kind of abstract language. 02:43:57 "can" and "should" being two different things... 02:45:00 synx: You have a very strange vocabulary -- words like "compiler" have different meanings for most of the world. (For example, "compiler" has absolutely no implication on when it is doing its work, or how.) 02:45:45 JIT implies that the when is "just in time". 02:45:58 eli: is there a standard sorted dictionary? 02:46:08 as opposed to a static compiler, which compiles everything beforehand. 02:46:11 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:15 synx: what's your point (if you have one)? 02:46:16 synx: Was there something not clear when I said "compiler"? 02:46:29 Fare: I don't think so. 02:47:00 *Fare* goes search planet for pure red-black trees of some sort 02:47:22 eli: You said "compiler" has no implication on when it's doing its work. That's why I specified a JIT compiler, to say when it's doing its work. 02:47:26 Fare: planet should have several related packages, IIRC. 02:48:16 sphex___ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:48:30 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:48:51 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:30 synx: Let me repeat: "compiler" has no implication on when it's doing its work. If you choose to use "compiler that does its work on Wednesdays between 9am and 2pm", then that's a different issue. 02:50:39 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:50:40 eli: if you were to develop an extensive container library in PLT -- would you use structs, units, or whatelse? 02:50:49 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:50:52 eli: what timezone? 02:51:14 The local one, of course. 02:51:26 What do you mean by a "container library". 02:52:33 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:52:52 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:52 Fare: If all you need in addition to the `dict' interface is sorted collections, then it might be easier to just extend it. 02:54:35 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:48 well in this case, I think I really want tries. But I'm also wondering what it would take to "do things right". 02:56:06 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:29 Fare: The simplest thing is to "do what works for you"; on the other extreme there is "suggest a library, fight with everyone to agree with it, then add it to the plt tree". In the middle is probably something like designing your own generalized interface, implement a good library, and make it your own planet package. 02:59:59 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:03:13 -!- sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:36 *arcfide* sighs. 03:03:40 Why do people do such things? 03:04:06 Like taking a dirty DEFINE-MACRO incantation and directly translating it into an equally messy SYNTAX-CASE version. 03:04:29 What's the use in having the benefits of automatic hygiene if you purposefully break it all to ****? 03:09:18 eli: I don't want to fight with anyone, but I want to understand what are the alternatives available as far as defining libraries goes 03:09:31 i.e. in the end, I'll probably make my own planet package 03:10:03 but before that, I want to understand if I want to use units, or something else, etc. 03:10:13 eli: once again, thanks a lot for your help 03:10:33 eli: oh -- and are there any plans / deadlines on the front of a FFI groveler? 03:13:39 Fare: No, not really, it's on my own pile, which is as usual frighteningly deep. 03:13:58 hehe. OK. 03:14:32 if I or a friend were to tackle this task -- are there constraints that you'd like to see preserved on the implementation of such? 03:15:17 I can pretty much sketch out how this should work -- it shouldn't be too difficult. 03:15:49 a sketch would be nice 03:15:52 anyway 03:15:56 good night and thanks again 03:16:08 OK, just ping me sometimes or something. 03:16:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:42 -!- rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:19:05 rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:23:23 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:29:35 mariorz [n=ffffg@li10-58.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:34:11 cky [n=cky@h138.124.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 03:36:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:16 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:50:16 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:54:23 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:54:46 underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:56:50 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:48 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:02:58 -!- sphex___ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:13 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-129-180.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:17:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:20 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:26:39 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:40:55 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:43:34 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:44:30 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:47 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:48:44 While it is perfectly understandable, I find it interesting how relatively easy it is to get my own code upgraded, compared to getting the code from everyone else working to my satisfaction on my new version of Chez. 04:50:43 -!- Sveklo1 [n=sveklo@bbwirelessgw1-ff98c300-194.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 04:51:43 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 04:52:02 -!- sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:55:19 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:07 -!- alanp [n=alanp@station.laudicina.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:14 gmarceau [n=user@fw-34.cs.brown.edu] has joined #scheme 05:00:17 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:00:55 oh, that's interesting; i didn't know the ignorant audience law was recursive: " he Ignorant Audience Law states: Someone important in the audience always knows less than you 05:00:59 think everyone should know, even if you take the Ignorant Audience Law into account. 05:01:30 i sense an endless recursion there; which is scientifically retrograde, of course 05:02:11 hi, does anyone knows how to get the amount of free disk space in plt-scheme? 05:03:56 arcfide: you must say that R6RS compatibility between R6RS Scheme's are rather good 05:06:42 except for the known phasing issues 05:08:16 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:17 gmarceau: why not make a process call to df? 05:11:12 i need it to be portable 05:11:29 so i guess i'm asking how to do it on windows 05:11:59 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:15:50 leppie: Eh... 05:16:06 leppie: No more than the R5RS compatibility was good among R5RS compliant Schemes. 05:17:00 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:21:46 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 05:21:55 -!- gmarceau [n=user@fw-34.cs.brown.edu] has left #scheme 05:25:25 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:55 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:52 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:31:23 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 05:31:46 i just read that clojure doens't support TCO -- do any java based schemes support TCO? 05:32:14 SISC 05:32:28 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:10 lowlycoder: i second SISC; also kawa, i believe 05:33:34 lowlycoder: whoops, the latter only in a limited sense 05:33:59 i heard good things about developing web apps with SISC 05:34:00 "Thus only letrec tail-recursion is supported, not tail-recursion of global procedures." http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/kawa/kawa-tour_20.html 05:34:08 (and webapps is the orute I plan to take) 05:34:15 what database do you use together with sisc? 05:34:19 lowlycoder: yeah; i used it on at least three web-based contracts 05:34:53 can you also give me good pointers for things to use with sisc for persistently storing objects? (querying them in a table like manner is not important -- mnesia equiv would be wonderful) 05:36:34 ugh, mnesia... 05:36:44 lowlycoder: you might be able to use this: http://sisc-scheme.org/manual/html/ch11.html#serialization 05:36:52 lowlycoder: use one of the java databases I guess? I've heard good things about h2 05:36:56 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:37:09 lowlycoder: yeah; just interface with the db over java 05:38:51 synx: I'm new to java; i've spent most of my days in assembly, C, and scheme 05:39:26 lowlycoder: from my experience dealing with spring and other object-persistence frameworks, they're more trouble than they're worth in the end 05:39:29 whoa, does H2 have no external dependencies? 05:39:30 big, big fucking headaches 05:39:43 uh... yes. 05:39:48 I mean no. 05:39:53 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:05 It's just a straight java database module. 05:40:11 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:40:41 so I don't need mysql, sqllite, or postgresql -- I just need sun's jvm, then I install h2, and boom, I have my native java db? 05:40:58 One of the larger ones actually... but it's got support for encrypted database files. Good for when you don't have root access to mount an encrypted filesystem. 05:41:08 Yeah lowlycoder that's about right. 05:41:33 The java sqlite database is also rewritten completely in java, doesn't use the C library at all. 05:41:33 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:19 where is the java sqlite databse? when I google for it I keep on getting wrappers 05:42:35 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 05:42:43 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-7093c4c37e96a8b2] has joined #scheme 05:42:46 http://www.zentus.com/sqlitejdbc/ 05:42:54 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055750.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:43:56 I don't like it particularly though. I got it to compile, but... h2 seems a lot better managed than both the sqlite hacky thing, and the other database related to h2, hsqldb. 05:43:57 wait; this confuses me, the source are *.java; but the page talks about NestedVM, which compiles C/C++ code to JVM 05:44:27 i'll take you suggestion and look into h2 05:44:28 Oh, maybe it does use the sqlite C source then? I dunno. 05:44:37 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055750.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:45:11 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:23 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:45:39 do take my suggestion with a grain of salt. I'm still struggling with basic java stuff, the least of which is finding a database that works. 05:48:17 java was one of the first languages to implement a decent support for namespaces, and it was still pretty hairy at the time. 05:52:09 why does this matter if i'm using sisc/h2? 05:52:17 does sisc not use it's own module system? 05:52:32 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:52:43 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:57:35 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 05:57:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:32 So, the latest in my input device experiments: Contour Pefit Mouse. 05:58:37 s/Pefit/Perfit 05:58:47 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:00 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:07:06 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:31 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:09:17 lowlycoder: synx uses syntax-case and its own compiler 06:10:22 wait .. no define-macro? 06:10:37 sssh don't expose my source code, it's unmannerly 06:10:39 that could be a killer for me 06:11:24 arcfide: interesting; reminds me of vibram five fingers 06:11:34 http://osdir.com/ml/java.sisc.user/2002-07/msg00010.html 06:12:00 the shoes? 06:12:07 i've always wanted to try them for jogging 06:12:09 how are they? 06:12:18 underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-223.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:13:53 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:14:14 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 06:14:16 lowlycoder: not bad, as long as your fourth toe isn't too long 06:14:27 lowlycoder: i use them for lifting; nike frees for running 06:14:32 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 06:14:58 why do you need expensive shoes for lifting? 06:16:07 whoa, nike free's are expensive 06:16:10 maybe i should make my own 06:16:15 lowlycoder: typically because there's a snatch or clean and jerk + metabolic conditioning 06:16:32 complex movements are dangerous with bare feet; but regular shoes are too cumbersome 06:16:41 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:41 some people use lifting shoes, but metcon is right out 06:16:42 for feear of dropping stuff on them? 06:16:57 <=- a runner, but not a lifter 06:16:58 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:17:05 lowlycoder: yeah; as opposed to static lifting, there's a lot of shit flying around 06:24:47 ASau [n=user@host175-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:30:10 complex movements are usually safest with bare feet. it's load bearing and hard surfaces where you benefit from shoes. 06:30:15 and dropping stuff on them 06:31:28 shoes can help some specialized movement... like tennis shoes for repetitive side-to-side movement. I still swear by bare feet though. 06:49:55 -!- rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:53:46 socket [n=socket@bzq-79-176-234-6.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 06:55:12 hello, i've got this code i need to complete (this is an exam prep not hw) "(( x0) y0)" the code should return the pair (x0 . y0) - i cant figure out how... do i need 2 lambdas ? 06:55:45 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:57:59 I think two lambdas is the correct way to do that 06:59:28 this is as far as i got ... ((lambda(y) (cons ((lambda(x) x) x0) y0) ... any suggetions ? 07:00:07 well 07:00:15 what happens when you evaluate the first lambda? 07:01:04 nothing... the code cant run, i need a few extra ))) at the end 07:01:32 I mean apart from that 07:01:51 try evaluating one step of that by hand and seeing if that is what you desire 07:02:51 im returing a procedure ? 07:03:04 could you just tell me? i dont have much time.. 07:03:16 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:03:31 Morning people. 07:03:53 socket: er, telling you the answer will do you no good, since you won't understand it 07:04:07 you are really better off evaluating one step of it and seeing why it is not right 07:04:30 i know its wrong, but i dont know how to make it right... 07:05:23 why is it wrong? 07:06:06 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:50 hmm, dont know.. 07:07:32 that is probably an important part of understanding how to do it right 07:08:21 do you really think that's the way to help ? 07:08:26 seriously.. 07:09:31 I'm pretty sure that permuting your code until it happens to work is an inferior debugging strategy to careful thought and analysis, yes 07:09:54 socket: socratic method FTW 07:10:44 Elly: i'm glad to hear spontaneous conception hasn't occurred, btw; otherwise, the catholics beating down your door wouldn't allow you any time for bare metal 07:11:00 klutometis: as it happens, I'm writing python right now :P 07:14:32 rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:14:42 this is really sad, insted of assisting someone you sit and play games with him. telling the man what he's doing wrong is just too simple for you 07:14:46 really sad 07:14:57 enjoy yourselfs... 07:14:58 -!- socket [n=socket@bzq-79-176-234-6.red.bezeqint.net] has left #scheme 07:15:20 ah, education 07:15:43 Elly: uh, oh; beware of pythons peddling fruit ;) 07:16:07 yeah; methinks that cat could have used a few socratic dialogs 07:16:24 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.47.12.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:38 maybe euthyphro for starters 07:17:23 then protagoras; and finally timaeus 07:18:02 that should have schooled him in knowledge qua midwivery, and tecne vs. arete 07:18:09 techne* 07:18:33 midwivery is one of those important but neglected skills 07:19:18 indeed; i hope you're practicing midwivery with your undergrads 07:19:19 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sunrise/48-98-9/me-wtst.htm 07:20:06 midwivery of the soul, that is 07:20:27 better link: http://www.jstor.org/pss/639347 07:20:34 I think practicing midwifery with undergrads could be fun 07:20:42 *Elly* is an undergrad though! 07:20:53 Elly: yeah, it's recursive midwivery 07:20:57 could get a little messy, though 07:22:30 Agh. My python program is a mess. 07:23:12 Elly: care to paste? 07:23:19 I wonder if there are an decent published algorithms for dungeon layout 07:23:42 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:23:42 klutometis: ah, it's not a particular kind of mess; I just realized that I've had x and y transposed in about half the places 07:24:30 Elly: oh, nice; you looked at the source for nethack? 07:24:39 no, I haven't 07:24:53 I am going to look at the Angband source in a moment 07:25:09 but games of that ilk tend to have the actual algorithm buried in 2000 lines of C 07:26:22 exactly; i was going to say that they probably haven't digested the algo into CLRS-style pseudo-code 07:26:54 I'm curious if there's any academic work on this 07:27:26 http://gram.cs.mcgill.ca/papers/rudzicz-08-iterated.pdf 07:28:06 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.119.1445&rep=rep1&type=pdf 07:28:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/owgvpu 07:28:56 the former paper is interesting-lookin 07:29:17 finally, http://www.aaai.org/Papers/AIIDE/2006/AIIDE06-022.pdf 07:29:24 that was actually a great conference 07:29:52 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:30:46 ooh 07:30:56 the second one looks likely 07:34:01 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:58 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:36:11 *Elly* inhales the second paper 07:37:03 Elly: yeah; it looks to be the most relevant and comprehensive of the three 07:38:56 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:41:10 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!"] 07:43:05 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:46:03 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 07:46:47 -!- 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[n=sphinx@95-24-211-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:21:00 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@78.113.16.15] has joined #scheme 10:30:51 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 10:35:34 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:36:16 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:27 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:39:32 elderK [n=zk@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:39:38 Hey people. 10:39:44 Anything interesting goin' on? 10:41:18 Hello! 10:41:31 How's things, elderK? 10:41:31 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:59 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:44:07 I'm trying to implement all-collected-subgraphs in python 10:44:09 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 10:50:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:50:51 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-200-84.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:20 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:56:42 Ppjet6_ [n=ppjet@78.113.3.173] has joined #scheme 10:58:02 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:31 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-200-84.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 11:02:38 -!- Ppjet6_ is now known as Pepe_ 11:08:40 wb alaricsp 11:08:40 :) 11:08:48 Not bad, man. Strangely tired today. 11:09:00 So, just meandering about the Internet, looking at articles and whatnot. 11:09:16 Pondering code of various projects, what needs to be done next. 11:09:20 My IP connectivity is flappy 11:09:21 :) Reading up on Common Lisp, too. 11:09:26 :( Lame. 11:10:02 I wish I could find an articles on the pros / cons of CL, Scheme versus each other :P 11:10:32 Since, with Scheme - it seems you can easily gain access to both worlds of macro-thinking - hygenic or not... especially if you use syntax-case, or even defmacro provided by most implementations. 11:10:59 Where CL really, really seems to stand above Scheme is in it's standardization (jeez, with Common being there, that isn't really that shocking :P) 11:11:12 And that it seems somewhat easier to interface CL with the outside world. 11:11:31 But then, Scheme is tiny. CL is giant. 11:11:36 *elderK* shrugs 11:11:37 *elderK* rambles 11:11:41 *elderK* reaches for his cigarettes 11:13:05 at over 700 procedures and syntax forms, R6RS is rather close to CL's odd 1000 11:13:25 elderK: That's a fair conclusion, I think. CL standardises more, so programs are easier to port between CL implementations. However, CL is also a lot more complex and messy. 11:13:50 I'm hoping, R7RS + SRFIs together will approximate the widespread standard library of CL without the complexity ;-) 11:13:52 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@78.113.16.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:06 Well aye, but complexity can be useful - if it brings functionality that IS actually useful. :P 11:14:31 Aye 11:14:52 The major thing that irks me a little with Scheme, but that I think is cool at the same time, is the vast number of implementations. 11:15:03 and while the core stuff is the same (r5rs) 11:15:06 the rest isnt :P 11:15:19 You could almos tsay "the stuff tha tmatters" isnt 11:15:23 but, that seems too strong. 11:15:24 :) 11:15:37 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:16:09 Dark-Side [n=dark-sai@ip-155.net-82-216-217.roubaix.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #scheme 11:16:11 I'm still looking for some short but interesting articles on Lisp / Scheme. 11:16:11 hi! 11:16:16 I know what you mean, elderK 11:16:19 Something that's like, printable without pain :P 11:16:27 :) 11:16:28 But I think that it's possible to be powerful without being complex :-) 11:16:35 Aye and I agree with that :) 11:16:54 It's exactly Lisp's simplicity that makes it so freaking powerful :P 11:17:01 Lisp generally, that is, including Scheme. 11:17:02 Indeed! 11:17:04 Aye 11:17:07 :) 11:17:12 Lisp = CL + Scheme + Arc + ... ;-) 11:17:20 I've a question : let say I've set the variable a to 3, my question is what's the difference here between (define a (+ a 1)) et (set! a (+ a 1)) ? 11:17:20 It's also what makes Lisp so hard to grok, at first. 11:17:31 (as they both set a to 4) 11:17:32 Like, in C or anything - you are used to X rules, these things you cannot breach, yadda yadda. 11:17:50