00:00:51 but, if we "suspend disbelief" we can write a "len-maker" function that will MAKE the len function given a proper binding for len, e.g.: 00:01:07 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:24 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:01:24 (lambda (len) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 (len (cdr l)))))) 00:02:28 if we pass a proper def'n of len that lambda, we get the length function back 00:02:38 follow so far? 00:04:06 datkin: well, this anonymous function calls its parameter to recurse? 00:04:08 recur* 00:04:14 (eli also has good class noteson this: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/course/csu660/lec11.txt ) 00:04:41 datkin: until here I`m ok, please continue 00:05:05 yes, only it's not really recursion b/c there's no sense that the `len' being called is necessarily the anonymous function we're defining 00:05:49 datkin: oh, yea. you're right 00:05:58 heh, like 'fix' 00:06:16 Y = fix (if i'm not mistaken) 00:07:13 so i'm gonna use let for sanity's sake... 00:07:26 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 00:09:02 (let ([make-len (lambda (len) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 (len (cdr l))))))]) make-len) gives me back a function that can get the length of an empty list 00:09:29 eg (let ([make-len (lambda (len) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 (len (cdr l))))))]) ((make-len) null)) -> 0 00:09:43 You may want to pass an argument to MAKE-LEN... 00:09:50 yes 00:10:01 eg (let ([make-len (lambda (len) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 (len (cdr l))))))]) ((make-len '???) null)) -> 0 00:10:34 wait... just a minute to decipher it. 00:11:59 datkin pasted "Y-1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82586 00:12:18 datkin: but if you passed a not null list it would do what?? 00:13:27 the argument you passed to (lambda (len) ...) was '??? 00:13:48 so on the else branch it would tyr to apply ('??? (cdr l)) and you'll get an error 00:14:14 datkin: oh, thanks. (relievied) 00:14:43 datkin: so how could we fix this? 00:14:48 so, (make-len '???) is a perfectly good length function for 0 length lists 00:15:19 that means if we pass (make-len '???) as the arg to make-len, we get a length function for lists of length 1 or less 00:15:57 datkin annotated #82586 "Y-2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82586#1 00:18:14 datkin: hmm.. getting interesting 00:18:24 do you follow so far? 00:18:56 datkin: yep! 00:19:02 datkin: I'm smelling the end 00:19:07 datkin: but keep going 00:19:12 (please) 00:19:13 good, b/c I don't follow at all 00:19:24 hey, I understand fix now :P 00:19:28 pantsd [n=hkarau@69-196-155-227.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 00:19:41 so, trick is, to get the *real* len function, you need infinite applications of make-len to itself 00:20:19 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:20 and that's what Y does - I'm not smart enough to derive it for you, but I can (try) to explain how/why it works 00:21:37 so (Y make-len) gives you back the "real" len function, each time it makes the "recursive" call to len, Y passes (make-len ???) where ??? is some "magic" that means the *next* time down in the recursion, (make-len ???) will still be there 00:22:47 datkin: oh, so the Y keep going as many times as we need: 0, 1, 93, 19903, infinite, right? 00:22:51 so here's how I like to define Y: (let ([Y (lambda (mk-f) ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (this) (mk-f (lambda (x) ((this this) x))))))]) (Y make-len)) 00:22:53 datkin: but how does it do it? 00:23:06 (let me just double check that def'n...) 00:23:36 datkin: would yo mind pasting it? indentation really helps me 00:23:58 yes 00:24:00 one sec 00:26:07 datkin annotated #82586 "real Y" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82586#2 00:27:19 the part you really want to look at is: (lambda (this) ...) 00:28:48 (lambda (x) (x x)) is applied to (lambda (this) ...) which means (lambda (this) ...) gets applied to itself, thus my reason for naming the argument "this" 00:29:27 datkin: well, no. I'l try it again. please wait. 00:29:53 take your time 00:30:41 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:30:57 before a partial-no, would you mind telling how many Y-like combinators does Scheme use? (just to prepare myself mentally ;-) 00:31:03 the code I pasted evals to the length function, you'd do ((Y make-len) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) or something to demonstrate that it works 00:31:23 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.124.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:44 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.124.251] has joined #scheme 00:31:49 sorry 00:32:48 I'm not sure what you mean by Y-like combinator (the only other combinator I know is omega) but in any practical implementation of Scheme Y isn't used, but it's a nice theoretical tool 00:33:23 datkin: do you mean Y isn't necessary for implementing 'define' in Scheme?? 00:34:09 -!- melgray_ [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:34:46 on a real computer it isn't necessary, b/c you can use mutation instead which is far more practical 00:35:12 The Y combinator doesn't work for recursive definitions whose values are not procedures. 00:35:20 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@69-196-180-112.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:40 Consider, for example, (define stream-of-ones (cons 1 (lambda () stream-of-ones))). 00:36:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:58 datkin and Riastradh: so why T*S explain all this? (not saying it isn't funny or helpful, but could get the meaning) 00:38:16 datkin: btw, what is 'mutation' in that case? 00:38:34 I'd differ both questions to Riastradh 00:39:17 hm... this is strange 00:40:00 but I can say you need it for theoretical things, like in the lambda calculus you'd use the Y-combinator for recursion 00:40:22 Elly pasted "dict macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82588 00:40:49 this does not behave as expected on (dict 'c 3) - it returns #, and I don't know how to go about debugging it 00:42:02 (dict 'c 3) evals to (hash-set! (make-hash) 'c 3) which is void, no? 00:42:11 datkin: really, really thanks. I'll try to digest one more time 00:42:50 (datkin: the fact is that is does work here - I love when examples work - they make me believe it is possible ;-) 00:43:03 er...hm 00:43:08 hash-set doesn't return the modified hash? 00:43:15 gah 00:43:36 arthurmaciel: no problem, I read TLS twice and had it explained to me two or three times over the course of two years before I got it. You see different definitions of it, but I found that when I formulate it as I did in that paste it's easiest for me to understand. 00:44:11 I think as a general rule the ! functions in scheme are all void 00:45:16 aha, thanks :) 00:45:17 *Elly* fixes 00:45:52 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 00:46:38 datkin: what do you mean by void? 00:47:47 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/void.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._void~3f)) 00:48:26 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #scheme 00:49:55 datkin: sorry, I thought you were talking to me :-) 00:50:09 datkin: TSS explains Y! to explain letrec. Have you read it? 00:51:18 arthurmaciel: no, I've only read Felleisen's chapter on Y in TLS and seen Eli's lectures 00:51:50 datkin: well, thanks. I'll try to decipher Y! now. 00:55:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5554e4dd6e2feb67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:19 sjr` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279550985.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 00:55:47 datkin: How did you get to *that* definition of `Y'? 00:55:59 -!- sjr` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279550985.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:18 arthurmaciel: enjoy! If you've got further questions I'll be around (along with far more qualified people: ^) 00:56:46 Elly: There is a partial Xlib interface that jonrafkind did once. 00:57:10 yea 00:57:23 jonrafkind: is it available somewhere? 00:57:23 eli: I took Matthias's def'n from TLS and I said "all these 'f's and 'x's and 'le's confuse me" and I changed a couple of names 00:57:35 its in planet 00:57:54 btw, its confusing to see "eli Elly:" 00:57:59 one of you has to change their name 00:58:08 why do the modifier procedures return void, anyway? 00:58:44 which modifier procedures 00:59:03 so you don't accidentally use them thinking they aren't mutators 01:01:34 Elly: just like Elly and eli: you have to know which one you're using 01:01:40 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:41 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:03:52 datkin: coming back to Y: I really cannot abstract to see how this applied to this, applied to itself again on (lambda (x) (x x)) makes sense. 01:05:17 datkin: I know that a function can be applied to itself as you've shown me on length case, as we could incrementally provide resources to solve greater problems (greater lists in that case), but don't know where the list is passed, which argument represents it, and blah blah blah. 01:06:24 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit ["unf***ing my keymap ..."] 01:07:01 arthurmaciel: the list would go in as x in (lambda (x) ((this this) x)) 01:07:23 offby1 [n=user@67.171.179.58] has joined #scheme 01:07:32 datkin: let me be more polite: when I do ((Y make-len) (list 1 2 3)), I substitute every mk-f on Y for make-len definition 01:08:08 yes (there's only one) 01:08:57 datkin: ok. than (lambda(x) ((this this) x)) should be passed as 'len' parameter to make-len substitute on mk-f place, right? 01:09:02 then* 01:09:16 correct 01:09:56 where `this' is (lambda (this) (mk-f ...)) 01:10:33 datkin: that I would have (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 ((lambda (x) ((this this) x)) (cdr l))))) 01:11:16 correct 01:11:47 datkin: so (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 ((lambda (x) ((this this) (cdr l))))))) 01:11:49 so (this this) evals to (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))) 01:12:24 arthurmaciel: more accurelate: (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 ((this this) (cdr l))))) 01:12:44 s/accurelate/accurately/ 01:13:13 chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.11.197] has joined #scheme 01:13:20 tnovelli [n=tom@96.236.117.60] has joined #scheme 01:13:30 datkin: I know you have already said that, but where 'this' come from? what is its value? 01:14:12 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.11.197] has left #scheme 01:14:23 (lambda (this) (mk-f (lambda (x) ((this this) x)))) is passed to (lambda (x) (x x)) to 'this' is the entire (lambda (this) ...) procedure 01:14:41 that's where the sort of mind bending self reference comes in 01:15:28 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-249-162.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:28 datkin: there is where I stop 01:17:36 datkin: gee, cannot evolve from there 01:17:47 arthurmaciel: do you understand closures? obviously you can just step through the evaluation by rewriting to convince yourself why it works, but if you understand that `this' closes over make-len it might be clearer 01:18:19 The Y combinator is really just a convenient way to use the U combinator to write recursive procedures. The U combinator is much simpler: (U f) = (f f) 01:18:27 datkin: 'closure' is an English word that I don't understand. less when dealing with Scheme 01:18:41 The U combinator enables a procedure to refer to itself. 01:20:21 datkin: that's the problem: passing (lambda (this) ...) to (lambda (x) (x x)) make me think that it will never end, as 'this' will be infinitely be replaced by its definition. 01:20:56 aha! that's the key 01:21:09 the references to this inside of this are wrapped inside a lambda 01:21:45 so the inner call to (this this) is not evaluated until (len (cdr l)) is applied 01:22:36 datkin: uuuh, almost there... almost there 01:22:53 datkin: just a minute... mind is stretching... 01:23:37 obviously the real way to test your understanding is to check if your hat still fits ;) 01:27:18 incubot: astrobleme is the word of the day, by the way 01:27:22 the word "though" seems to be over-used 01:27:25 datkin: will there be a time that I'll get this expansion: ((make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))) (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x)))) ? 01:27:57 allnmymind [n=allnmymi@bas3-ottawa10-1279550985.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 01:28:35 arthurmaciel: no; ... 01:28:44 datkin: lost again 01:28:53 -!- allnmymind [n=allnmymi@bas3-ottawa10-1279550985.dsl.bell.ca] has left #scheme 01:28:55 ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (this ...))) will eval to: 01:29:43 ((lambda (this) (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x)))) (lambda (this) (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))))) 01:30:21 arthurmaciel: which you can treat as (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))) 01:31:02 datkin: why can I treat as this? because I'm not going to expand (this this)? 01:31:08 wehere 'this' is *bound* to (lambda (this) ...), BUT(!) resist the temptation to actually replace (this this) with the big ugly ((lambda (this) ...) (lambda (this) ...)) above 01:31:28 b/c ths (this this) is inside of (lambda (x) ((this this) x)) 01:31:35 s/ths/the/ 01:33:07 datkin: so there is no need to expand them infnitely, because it will be done just if the function is called, right? 01:33:10 meaning `this' inside the procedure has been bound to the procedure itself, but the repeated self application (this this) has been avoided b/c it's inside a lambda 01:33:32 datkin: lambda's are REALLY nice stuff 01:33:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:33:56 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:59 yes, the key part is that the (lambda (x) ((this this) x)) delays the evaluation so you don't get infinite applications, it only gets applied once, every time you make the recurisve len call 01:34:22 datkin: they stop and let go at right times (this would be cited as a philosophycal reflection) 01:35:01 philosophical* 01:35:06 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:48 arthurmaciel, In: Philosophical reflections on Scheme: to stretch or not to stretch? 01:36:30 heheh, to stretch! 01:37:54 datkin: will I get something like: ((lambda (this) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 ((this this) (cdr l))))) (lambda (this) (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))))) ? 01:38:26 codermattie [n=user@74-60-0-165.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:16 arthurmaciel: let me look at that for a moment 01:42:23 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:42:41 I believe you're missing the paren to close the first lambda 01:43:41 I don't think you'd actually get that expansion in Scheme, but that is "correct" in the sense it is a valid expansion that would evaluate to the length function 01:47:52 datkin: I'll try more 01:48:28 datkin: I believe it is correct now: ((lambda (this) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) 0 (+ 1 ((this this) (cdr l)))))) (lambda (this) (make-len (lambda (x) ((this this) x))))) 01:48:43 I am quite fond of macros, and new to plt-scheme 01:48:57 I am a bit confused by the define-syntax and friends 01:49:47 If I can write a macro the "old" way, by manipulating the symbols quoted to the macro form, why would I use the define-syntax stuff 01:50:03 basically what I am asking is where is define-syntax more "elegant" 01:51:52 sorry, syntax-rules, not define-syntax 01:52:17 datkin: now I've got, friend: now I SEE how it make-len will be applied to itself over and over using the (cdrl l) until it reaches the empty list and go back adding 1, plus 1, plus 1, plus 0 01:52:29 codermattie: hygiene 01:53:18 datkin: REALLY thanks! Now I see! (playing Richard Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra on my mind) 01:53:51 arthurmaciel: excellent! I'd keep looking it until it's very clear, and then I'd sleep on it, and then see if you remember how it works tomorrow :D 01:56:11 datkin, thank you 01:56:24 datkin: good plan! 02:06:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-2235.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:47 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:26 gfb [i=4c421873@gateway/web/freenode/x-9a1044f099362170] has joined #scheme 02:27:22 -!- pantsgay is now known as pantsd_1 02:32:15 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:32:46 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:33:56 I checked the plt-scheme wikipedia entry, and it seemed to discourage using plt-scheme for "real world" applications 02:34:24 well, it seems the most "real-world"-capable of the schemes I know of 02:34:35 has anyone considered revising the page to encourage use of plt-scheme for application development ? 02:34:37 maybe Chez or Chicken is better ... dunno 02:34:44 not I 02:35:10 What gives you that impression, codermattie? 02:38:18 -!- gfb [i=4c421873@gateway/web/freenode/x-9a1044f099362170] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 02:39:02 gfb [i=4c4709dc@gateway/web/freenode/x-9e06aa74dc372990] has joined #scheme 02:39:03 Riastradh: just a sec 02:39:54 The "Research" section 02:40:07 saying that it failed as a language for large projects 02:40:37 you realize, of course, that Wikipedia allows anyone at all to edit articles ... 02:40:38 What? 02:40:50 no it doesn't 02:40:57 you have to be an admin to edit certain articles 02:41:50 Speaking only about what the article says (and not on its veracity), I don't get that at all, codermattie. `In a sense, the language [Scheme] failed and yet it also proved to be an ideal platform. Scheme per se [i.e. the language Scheme, not PLT Scheme] failed because...' 02:41:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:43:47 And `If taken as an ideal kernel, however, Scheme succeeded beyond the team's expectations.' 02:44:12 I definitely understood that part 02:44:20 What in this suggests to you that PLT Scheme is unfit for `real world' applications? 02:44:43 That it failed for large scale programming teams 02:45:01 When you say `it', do you mean `the language Scheme', or `the PLT Scheme system'? 02:45:04 I understand the qualifer, but I am wondering if others will when doing a quck browse 02:45:26 by being on the PLT-scheme page, I would assume PLT-scheme 02:45:36 How would you make that clearer? 02:45:36 though in learning PLT-scheme I would disagree 02:46:04 I would remove the part saying that it failed for large scale teams 02:46:13 there is not even a citation for that statement 02:46:54 given the module system I don't see why PLT-scheme could not be used for large projects 02:46:54 heh... most projects with 20+ coders probably fail 02:47:28 codermattie: "it" is very clearly "Scheme"; and "Scheme" as a general concept -- as in RnRS (at least for some values of `n') -- is not suitable for large projects according to the PLT experience. 02:47:30 The article had a very odd feel to it, there was definitely a lack of clarity in writing it 02:47:51 I still don't see how you get that the article suggests that PLT Scheme is unfit for large projects. 02:47:57 pants1 [n=hkarau@76-10-154-52.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 02:48:03 eli: can you provide a link, I would like to understand this statement better 02:48:08 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@69-196-155-227.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:48:14 codermattie: In other words, the PLT group started with Scheme, and slowly "discovered" more extensions that are needed. 02:49:01 codermattie: Just take the difference between R[45]RS (the rough versions at the time PLT existed) and PLT, and consider what use each of the features in this difference is. 02:49:22 eli: That I can understand, it seems to me that the whole idea of scheme was to build a very clean and extensible core 02:50:02 codermattie: Yes, and that's *exactly* what it says right after that: "If taken as an ideal kernel, however, Scheme succeeded beyond the team's expectations." 02:50:08 hey eli, I just sorted out that #reader thing.. not bad. Just sticking #reader "my-reader.ss" in front of #lang scheme does what I want. That'd be a good example for the docs. 02:50:47 eli: okay, maybe I just found the language to be a bit of a put-off for someone who does not know very much about scheme 02:51:11 tnovelli: Yes, that works for now, but will soon not be sufficient, which is why I still need to provide a new "chained" language for relatively-specified languages. 02:51:32 eli: ah, right, of course 02:51:55 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:52:02 tnovelli: The problems will begin when we add more "language-related properties" -- using #reader will not work in that case., 02:52:27 codermattie: You can raise the point on the mailing list. 02:52:31 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:56 eli: I was thinking of doing so, I wanted to ask here first if anyone else saw a problem with the article 02:52:58 codermattie: And re your complaint on the lack of references; check the history and see who wrote it. 02:53:22 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:54:05 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 02:54:26 The article had a very odd feel to it, there was definitely a lack of clarity in writing it 02:54:41 what strikes you as odd about "lack of clarity"? To me, that's the default :-| 02:57:35 yeah, the first thing after "History" is "Research" 02:58:40 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:58:42 personally I would have started with a extremely brief description of scheme, followed by how plt-scheme has differentiated 02:59:28 incubot: it turns out that reification comes from REI, the outdoor gear store; and, thus, to "reify a continuation" means roughly to equip it for an outdoor adventure 02:59:32 We have a pool, but it's short and I don't have access to an outdoor 25 or 50m pool. My foot isn't that bad; just horribly bruised. Ironically, I did it twisting my foot while walking my flat-tired bike on a sidewalk. 03:00:17 incubot: it's not the steak; it's the sizzle. 03:00:21 life of the party at a beefsteak used to be the man who let out the most ecstatic grunts, drank the most beer, ate the most steak, and got the most grease on his ears, but women do not esteem a glutton, and at a contemporary beefsteak it is unusual for a man to do away with more than six pounds of meat and thirty glasses of beer. 03:00:32 incubot: why, I agree completely. 03:00:35 But small changes to a file can completely throw off line & column numberings. 03:00:55 http://offby1.ath.cx/~erich/all-you-can-hold-for-five-bucks.html 03:01:50 offby1: server down? 03:01:58 not that I know of; why do you ask? 03:02:14 oh. 03:02:16 *ahem* 03:02:20 yeah, probably. 03:02:33 that name resolves for me, but of course I have it mapped to 192.160.0.whatever. 03:03:02 moin 03:03:58 Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 03:04:47 foof: i didn't know you spoke frisian 03:04:59 http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgp7832_25c6nqr4gw 03:05:46 The name resolves perfectly well, and I can ping that host, but it's not answering TCP SYNs. 03:06:20 Riastradh: not sure what that means. 03:06:38 Riastradh: I have the typical home setup: DSL with one of those "DSL modems", which filters most ports. 03:06:45 I use greetings from lots of languages. 03:06:57 I think I never bothered installing Apache after I repaved my home machine 03:07:54 It means that there's a machine there observable by the world wide intertubes, but there's probably something between the machine and the intertubes that is dropping attempts to open TCP connections on port 80. 03:08:10 _kind_ of surprising 03:08:32 although I doubt my desktop box is itself listening on port 80 any more, as (as I said) I never bothered installing Apache 03:08:36 let's see 03:08:55 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176206224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:08 apparently not. 03:09:21 I should tell my NAT box not to bother forwarding port 80, too 03:09:46 Maybe there's a firewall on that machine dropping TCP SYns. 03:09:48 SYNs, even. 03:10:48 *shrug* 03:10:50 possible 03:11:05 nothing I did intentionally but who knows what the "DSL modem" and the Linux TCP stack works 03:12:21 -!- gfb [i=4c4709dc@gateway/web/freenode/x-9e06aa74dc372990] has quit ["Page closed"] 03:15:06 *offby1* is pretty impressed with himself, having created that Google Doc after a _very_ large martini 03:15:17 offby1: not a bad read, either 03:20:30 *foof* read "offby1 is pretty impresed with himself, having created Google Doc" 03:23:11 Wow, they had google docs in 1939? 03:23:51 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.124.251] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:26:28 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.43.162] has joined #scheme 03:27:18 klutometis: one of my favorites. 03:27:47 foof: well, no; I created Google Docs back in around 1982 or so. I needed to wait until Metcalf invented the Internet first. 03:28:21 klutometis: entirely by coincidence, my favorite thing to cook for dinner is ribeye. Coincidence, I say. 03:32:19 klutometis: Moin is Frisian? I thought it was Low Saxon. 03:32:25 Moin moin BTW :-) 03:33:26 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:36:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:36:50 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:36:55 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:07 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 03:39:31 pbusser2: ostfriesisch-niederdeutsch, apparently 03:40:03 needer-needer 03:41:48 pbusser2: chibi doesn't assume file i/o but rather that all ports are backed by a FILE* 03:42:38 Usually that corresponds to a file descriptor, but there are various extensions that allow custom ports, and these are what chibi's string ports are built on. 03:43:54 Thus init.scm could be loaded from a string port, which I was debating doing. 03:45:01 For embedding in other apps it's convenient not to need any file system access or installation, which is why lua doesn't have any file dependencies or initialization scripts. 03:52:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:06:39 foof` [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:09:05 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:09:50 -!- foof` is now known as foof 04:15:03 foof: chibi-scheme on bare metal: is this dangerous? 04:15:57 *Elly* is going to attempt this tomorrow 04:20:20 go for it 04:23:08 -!- tnovelli [n=tom@96.236.117.60] has quit ["leaving"] 04:23:42 Elly: i think you have a ferro-fetish 04:27:25 klutometis: I do! 04:27:33 klutometis: I'm a C programmer, mostly :P 04:28:47 at least wear a helmet!! 04:30:52 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:46 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:46:40 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["Changing server"] 04:47:40 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 04:55:28 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:55:44 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 04:58:51 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:00:21 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 05:02:08 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-240-63.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 05:03:14 Ferro-fetish? Shouldn't that be a silcon-fetish? 05:04:08 foof: I see. I thought I saw getc() in the reader, but I guess I must have been wrong about that. 05:06:08 Elly: Chibi on bare metal also requires some assembly code, to initialise and bootstrap the system. 05:06:24 pbusser2: I am aware 05:06:32 I have written more than one kernel before :P 05:06:46 Elly: Really? 05:06:49 I TA the operating system design course here 05:07:05 TA? And where is here? 05:07:12 Carnegie-Mellon 05:07:17 TA means "teaching assistant" 05:07:20 Ah ok. 05:07:23 bam! 05:09:29 Elly: Can you recommend books or papers about designing and writing kernels? 05:10:04 the textbook we use (I'm not sure what it's called, actually; we refer to it as the Dinosaur Book) is good 05:10:36 paperwise, the Plan 9 design papers are relatively concise and informative, although the authors are misinformed on some points 05:10:45 Elly: Oh, that is Silberschatz. 05:11:03 Elly: On which points are the Plan9 authors misinformed? 05:11:04 pbusser2: chibi does use getc, which acts on a FILE*, which can be backed by a string port 05:11:25 pbusser2: when they designed Plan 9, laptops weren't anywhere near as important as they are now 05:11:41 more to the point, there was a significant capacity gap between laptop and desktop processors and memory 05:11:44 foof: Ah, ok. So it requires some modification in that case. 05:12:47 Elly: So it doesn't support laptops? 05:13:09 the OS runs on them, it's just that most of its advantages disappear when you have a big machine on a thin pipe 05:13:37 it's designed for many tightly-coupled machines, such that you can have separate "CPU servers" and "storage servers" and such 05:14:20 Elly: I see, I didn't know that. That explains why it needs a sufficiently big pipe. 05:14:47 Of course, Plan 9 is a distributed OS. How could I have forgotten about that... 05:15:42 it is a fine idea 05:15:44 but laptop power and storage caught up in an unforseen way 05:15:55 I can imagine that. 05:15:58 and really wiped out distributed systems research for everywhere except the supercomputing market 05:16:41 There is not much to distribute on a disconnected laptop. 05:16:50 well 05:16:53 interestingly enough 05:17:12 once you start getting enough processors inside a machine, it begins to act a bit like a distributed system again 05:17:24 Yep. 05:17:38 so... we'll see 05:17:58 But the interaction between the parts is different (and more reliable) than though a network. 05:18:07 They are talking about 16 core CPUs already. 05:18:28 Elly: Have you ever heard about transputers? 05:19:16 yes 05:19:22 I have no experience with them though 05:19:48 Elly: Same here. :-) Still it was an interesting concept. 05:34:36 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:02 ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 05:52:00 chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.11.197] has joined #scheme 05:52:06 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.11.197] has left #scheme 06:03:39 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:10:10 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:15:40 -!- ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:19:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:24:32 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:25:48 I beieve OSkit sets up a FAT filesystem and connects stdin/out to the console for you. 06:26:59 Otherwise, you would just need to add an opcode for writing to the console, and one for reading from the keyboard. main() would use these, but nothing else would need to be changed. 06:30:26 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:36 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:38:39 ejs0 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 06:38:48 arcfide: pong 06:39:05 leppie: I was wondering if you could clarify some things about the R6RS SRFIs. 06:39:24 sure 06:39:26 I'm having a bit of troubl eunderstand what the private OS define stuff does. 06:40:01 those are only for SRFI-0 i think, I just added some BS there, and it works :) 06:40:54 here is my platform-features file: https://ironscheme.svn.codeplex.com/svn/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console/srfi/private/platform-features.ironscheme.sls 06:40:55 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ol4brv 06:41:17 if have not seen it being used in any of the other SRFI's 06:42:44 For what does SRFI-0 need it? 06:43:36 leppie: Is it also normal for Schemes to resolve (srfi :0) libraries to a path "srfi/0.sls"? 06:45:21 they all decided on that, actually it should match: srfi/:0.sls (but : is encoded) hence the %3E (or something) prefix 06:45:47 some scheme's like mine, decide to auto strip the ':' 06:46:37 .... 06:46:53 Ohkay, why the encoding? 06:47:06 : is not valid on windows 06:47:11 LOL 06:47:15 Hrm. 06:47:15 for a filename 06:47:25 BSD not have same issue? 06:47:36 leppie: Neither BSD nor Linux have issues with :0.sls. 06:47:44 oh k :) 06:48:09 In the copy of Chez Scheme I have, in fact, (srfi :0) is searched for in a srfi/:0.sls path. 06:48:19 I'm not sure about the behavior on Windows. I wanted to check this out so that I can make a report. 06:48:20 well to make it look better on windows, I just made a small change, but for portablility, you will need to encode it 06:49:23 hence all those ugly files/symlinks 06:49:49 there is a problem on some OS with naming files containing a '*' too 06:49:56 look at and-let* 06:50:41 bzr fails on that, and prevents me from even checkout that url on windows, i need to go into a VM to download :( 06:51:54 leppie: I assume that you only auto-strip the leading prefix ':', and not internal ':' characters? That could be troublesome if you stip internatl ones. 06:52:19 yes, just whn it recolves the file name 06:52:30 yes, just when it resolves the file name/path 06:52:39 Well, I don't have any problems after I created a little script to link the existing libraries to use an explicit :. 06:53:07 leppie: What if I have two libraries: (arcfide funstuf:0) and (arcfide funstuf0)? 06:53:39 only strip leading : if followed by a number 06:53:58 leppie: But that's an example where it breaks. 06:54:06 OH, wait, you said leading :. 06:54:07 Okay. 06:54:13 Right. 06:54:17 else it gets encoded as normal 06:54:33 Alright, so what about the include compat stuff? 06:56:33 search-paths returns a list of strings that contains the paths to search for libraries (not sure where this fits in) 06:57:08 eg ("." "/lib" "./lib") 06:58:30 maybe it's search paths for include files, not sure 06:58:33 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:58:43 so (".") may be suficient 06:59:22 i share a lot of commonality with ikarus, so porting is easy 07:00:52 but the great thing about R6RS, i didnt have a shared structure facitlity, and I managed to just use Lacerny's implementation out of the box 07:01:30 Well, it looks like most of the SRFIs are working so far. 07:01:39 run the tests 07:02:01 the random test does take a while, so be patient 07:02:11 well it dod on mine 07:02:18 s/dod/did/ 07:02:25 How do I run the tests? 07:03:13 just run each file as a script in the tests directory 07:04:50 does chez support that lib.impl.sls file notation ? 07:05:10 Not that I know of. 07:05:47 that's a nice feature when you have portability issues :) 07:07:23 it also comes free with psyntax 07:08:01 is library-extensions defined ? 07:08:51 if so, just do (library-extensions (cons ".chez.sls" (library-extensions))) 07:09:23 leppie: I guess that would work. 07:09:33 that's what I do :) 07:11:06 im glad i added those srfi's, it pointed out a few bugs I didnt know about 07:11:19 in IronScheme 07:11:35 xwl [n=user@62.237.32.162] has joined #scheme 07:16:12 saccade__ [n=saccade@VPN-EIGHTY.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:18:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:00 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.43.162] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:21:59 leppie: Do you know what Ikarus' 'format' procedure is? 07:22:14 yes 07:22:42 i think its the simple version as defined in TSPL3 07:23:18 leppie: Is this the CL 'format'? 07:23:26 no 07:23:47 the simplest version 07:24:20 But does it do the same thing? 07:24:50 So, that is, is CL 'format' a superset of the functionality of the 'format' that is expected, such that it could be used in this requirement of SRFI 19? 07:24:57 AFAIK, the arguments are different, but it provides the same type of functionality 07:25:28 I guess 07:25:52 (format "~a" 'foo) 07:25:58 (format "~s" 'foo) 07:26:12 These return strings? 07:26:22 note, there is no port, yes 07:26:35 use fprintf and printf for ports 07:28:20 http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/examples.html#./examples:s36 07:28:48 Hrm, and what is this gmt-offset? Is that the offset of the time returned? 07:29:10 yes, but hang on, that is tricky 07:29:45 that is in seconds 07:30:04 took a while to figure that one out :) 07:31:12 leppie: That's not so tricky. that's pretty common. 07:31:23 But, is it a parameter, a unary procedure, or a single value? 07:31:33 Sorry, nullary. 07:32:09 (define (host:time-gmt-offset t) (total-seconds (difference t (datetime->utc t)))) 07:32:32 that's how mine is defined, might be easier to understand 07:33:07 Yeah, that makes it easy enough. 07:33:31 good 07:33:39 explaining is hard 07:34:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:39 i wonder where format is being used in srfi-19 07:39:07 i cant see it being used 07:39:23 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 07:39:44 Well, I'm on to other things right now, like an invalid syntax error on 778. 07:40:19 let me see, i dont have the latest version 07:40:51 Sorry, compare-procedures.sps. 07:42:23 the test? 07:42:58 Yes. 07:44:59 on this: (:list input pairwise-not=?:long-sequences) ? 07:45:43 Yes, it appears that there are some things that it doesn't like in the Eager Comprehensions tests. 07:45:52 Eager comprehensions in general don't seem right here. 07:46:22 i had some problems with that too, due to over eager optimization 07:47:36 what error do you get with ec ? 07:47:39 How long were the random tests supposed to take? 07:48:02 mine took long, 5 or 10 or 15 minutes 07:48:28 arcfide pasted "ec Error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82600 07:48:40 leppie: which test? 07:48:56 leppie: random-conftest.sps? 07:49:03 one of them 07:50:03 leppie: You may want to think about enhancing the speed of your random stuff. :-) 07:50:36 both of them fast? 07:50:54 for you 07:51:37 arcfide pasted "random test timings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82601 07:52:31 Looks like there was a lot of allocation, maybe that was it? 07:53:17 ok, where is all the print outs? you get all that? 07:53:42 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-107-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:54:29 arcfide annotated #82601 "Maybe the tests are bad?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82601#1 07:54:48 That is, maybe my Scheme is missing some stuff? 07:55:11 )...ok 07:55:21 that part takes ages for me 07:55:42 Ah well. 07:55:45 At least it works. 07:55:50 tons of GC's 07:56:01 i'll check later 07:56:09 Now I just need to know why Eager Comprehensions are having trouble. 07:56:15 As almost everything is passing right now. 07:56:16 or better, just profile it 07:56:35 it looks like it has a problem with 'nested' 07:56:54 is that somehow defined ? 07:57:12 -!- xwl [n=user@62.237.32.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:58:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 07:58:53 ok running profiler, will take a while, bbl :p 08:01:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:04:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:14:26 ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 08:15:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:55 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:20:37 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@VPN-EIGHTY.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:21:52 Hrm.... 08:21:56 I'll have to work on this later, I guess. 08:23:42 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:07 ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 08:29:17 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:30:07 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 08:31:08 -!- ray [i=ray@ipv6.the.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:10 ray [i=ray@ipv6.the.ug] has joined #scheme 08:37:23 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 08:52:58 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296bf1.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:56:54 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:59:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:00:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:02:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:59 nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-064-138-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:20:03 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 09:24:54 ejs0 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:36:01 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057CF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:06 -!- bsund [n=bsund@h29n2fls303o1114.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:22 qryzls [n=gaetano@host246-13-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 10:02:22 -!- qryzls [n=gaetano@host246-13-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:41 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 10:29:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 10:30:16 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:34:51 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@111-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:45:20 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051120054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:46:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:48:26 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 10:49:52 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:51:43 qryzls [n=qryzls@host246-13-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 10:52:47 -!- qryzls [n=qryzls@host246-13-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:42 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051120054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 10:56:49 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 11:04:57 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:11:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:47 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-27-154.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:14:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:15:05 m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 11:15:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-27-154.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 11:16:04 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-107-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:46 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:16:59 Hey people. 11:17:14 Anyone got some links to some decent but, accessible articles on Scheme? 11:17:25 ie: not purely academic:P 11:18:18 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-194.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:21:26 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.123.91] has joined #scheme 11:23:52 Did you try readscheme.org? 11:24:02 There are some academic articles there, but many are also very accessible 11:27:04 Their titles make it hard for me to really find something I want to read about though 11:27:05 :P 11:46:40 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-175-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:52:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:33:49 tnovelli [n=tom@pool-96-236-117-60.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 12:35:34 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 12:38:39 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8055.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 12:42:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:43:05 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:52 elderK: What about the Playboy? 12:46:09 Very funny :P 12:46:27 pbusser2: It would totally own if we were able to get them to write about Scheme 12:46:35 lol 12:46:38 Total world domination in one fell swoop 12:46:40 :D 12:46:51 Man, imagine being able to take a continuation.... 12:46:52 :P 12:46:55 when you get the girl in your room :P 12:47:00 heh :) 12:47:02 :P 12:47:08 hehehe 12:48:50 Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B54C61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:20 Wasn't there a movie where Bill Murray got the girl by repeated use of call/cc? 12:51:01 Ground Hog Day! 12:51:17 lol 12:51:47 i must say that deepzoom website is pretty cool that playboy got 12:52:32 impressive rather, from a technical point of view 13:00:10 :D 13:00:26 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-175-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:28 *elderK* sighs 13:01:33 So little interesting to read online atm 13:01:33 :/ 13:01:48 Well, anything that captivates me anyway/ 13:01:48 :) 13:01:50 http://ece.olin.edu/focs/current/lecture_notes/05_Y/Y.pdf 13:01:57 that's a good read 13:02:11 This is kind of interesting too 13:02:15 http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html 13:02:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ksujra 13:02:17 Is that hte Y of Y? 13:02:21 :P Y Y works! 13:02:33 If you are like me, and like reading about history :) 13:02:40 it's written 'differently' 13:02:54 What do you mean, the Y Y thing? 13:02:57 yeah i like reading about the old time hackers 13:03:18 I look at them all as role models. 13:03:23 Signs of what we are losing today... 13:03:26 :( 13:03:34 http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/ <-- cool stuff 13:03:34 Back when Programmers were hackers. 13:03:50 lol 13:03:55 Instant wisdom about anything 13:03:56 lol 13:03:57 I like that 13:03:58 :D 13:04:27 ^_^ I love how my laptop keeps me warm :P lol 13:05:31 hehe. im off for 2 hours 13:06:48 only measures lists of l ength 0, nice. 13:06:51 Later leppie, take care dude. 13:06:52 :) 13:13:43 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:15:21 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.171.47] has joined #scheme 13:17:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:00 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.39.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:16 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:28:46 lol, poor brain 13:28:50 this (Y Y) works thing is hurting my mind. 13:28:58 I see it, and I understand it on a vague level. 13:29:00 But, to prove it to myself, 13:29:05 I want to expand it all out, 13:29:26 so my brain has something to keep track of and doesnt get lost,. 13:29:27 lol 13:31:51 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:42 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 13:53:10 fabse [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 13:54:46 a-s [n=user@92.81.146.118] has joined #scheme 14:09:48 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:40 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 14:12:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-59.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:13:28 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:00 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8055.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:30:40 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 14:42:49 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-31-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:42:59 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-31-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:53 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 14:50:20 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-175-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:51:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-194.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:06 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 15:07:40 (Y Y) looks wrong. 15:07:57 ( Y ) is right. %] 15:08:22 *ASau* pretends to be innocent. 15:11:28 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:11:36 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:12:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 15:19:01 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.224.232] has joined #scheme 15:27:57 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-240-63.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:00 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-159-23.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 15:34:54 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:09 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 15:45:48 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434F4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 15:46:55 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:51:42 Hi all. I've got a scheme expression (i.e. read from a file or obtained via syntax->datum in a macro). It has some free variables and may produce side effects, but returns a pair in form (value1 . value2), where value1 does not depend on free variables. Is there a way to extract that value1 from an expression using plt-scheme? 15:52:29 Without implementing an interpreter I mean :) 15:52:48 eval ? 15:55:30 leppie: Yeah, something like eval, but which (1)prevents side effects from happening (2)Ignores free valuables. So, imagine, I've got something like (let ((x 1)) (cons x (read))). I'd like to get 1 as a result. So, I wonder, whether plt offers some facilities which could help me. 15:56:26 Mr-Cat: what are you trying to do? 15:56:27 s/valuables/variables 15:57:13 if a valuable is free, is it still valuable? 15:57:28 does anyone know where in R5RS it says that there are no reserved keywords? 15:57:45 Mr-Cat : what if you have `(let ((x 1)) (set! x (* y x)) (cons x (read)))' instead ? 15:58:05 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:22 hkBst: i only found: There are no reserved identifiers 15:58:39 nan8: ah thanks 15:58:58 nan8: howvere I do not find that 15:59:29 kuribas: I've got a dsl for defining state machines. So, I'm looking for a way to a way to visualize (e.g. via graphviz) as large subset of possible state machines as possible. 15:59:38 hkBst: i only did a text search 15:59:52 hkBst: in the info version of r5rs 16:00:00 the fi ligature is messing with my results again 16:00:14 ski: In this particular case message, that x depends on free variables and cannot be evaluated will be enough 16:00:36 hkBst: and that match is in: "Language changes" 16:00:58 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:59 hkBst: (r5rs)Language changes (if you have access to the info docs) 16:01:49 Mr-Cat : so you can use arbitrary Scheme in this DSL ? 16:01:59 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 16:02:02 ski: And I'm not looking for a ready-to-use solution. Just for something that could help me implement that for one particular scheme impl (plt) 16:02:06 ski: Yes 16:03:08 ski: But often arbitrary code is used for side effects, while transitions between states are "hard-coded" 16:03:46 maybe you can write a usable interpreter .. but i would first try removing the "arbitrary Scheme" bit 16:04:11 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 16:04:44 ski: Well, writing an interpreter is what I'm trying to avoid :) 16:05:00 you might be able to evaluate code in a non-standard environment where side-effecting procedures are replaced with condition-raising ones 16:05:33 (well, side-effecting syntax like `set!' as well, of course) 16:05:49 thanks nan8 16:07:27 ski: Hm... And if I could extract a list of free variables from an expression, I could define them in that non-stanard environment in a way I need... 16:08:21 i don't really see why you want to evaluate open code 16:08:24 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051120054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:09:43 Mr-Cat: why not share the values in a shared hashtable or such? something you can import into the eval environment, and posiibly modify 16:13:59 leppie: I don't quite get your idea. But modifying state machine code is not an option. 16:15:52 Iirc, DrScheme has some code analysis tools. Maybe I could get access to those somehow. 16:19:22 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:21:30 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:23 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 16:43:15 elibarzilay [n=eli@m765e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:07 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 16:54:44 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:54:53 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:21 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.123.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:51 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-0-89.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 17:20:58 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.43.162] has joined #scheme 17:23:20 -!- Greg02_ is now known as Greg02 17:27:14 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:28:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 17:32:12 -!- fabse [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit ["Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women"] 17:39:09 is there a way to convert syntax to code at runtime without eval? 17:41:13 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:31 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:44:16 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:36 jonrafkind: i cant think of any 17:53:46 incubot: scheme is the doric among languages; apollonian 17:53:49 It means you're a 'channel operator.' Among other things, it allows you to kick people with the '/kick' command -- '/kick #scheme ookook ' 17:54:24 *leppie* is confused at the response 17:54:44 what did it match? 18:00:32 -!- nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-064-138-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 18:01:30 I'm surprised it didn't give a Prince quote 18:01:53 wait, that would require a 'y' 18:04:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:08:31 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:42 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051120054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 18:19:45 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 18:22:46 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 18:23:19 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.200.205] has joined #scheme 18:24:38 hello 18:24:56 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:30:31 *arcfide* ponders the employment opp posted to CLS. 18:33:22 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-0-89.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:44:56 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-59.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:45:25 ventonegro_ [n=alex@189.62.126.233] has joined #scheme 18:47:46 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-59.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:52:49 ejs0 [n=eugen@162-44-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:56:03 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.146.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:08 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:05 leppie: among 18:59:12 -!- codermattie [n=user@74-60-0-165.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:36 ahhh :p 18:59:45 how did i miss it? 19:01:45 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.200.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:05 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:49 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434F4.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:11:13 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-175-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:26 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@162-44-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:33 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.198.93] has joined #scheme 19:33:22 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:35:29 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:41:02 ejs0 [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:46 -!- ventonegro_ [n=alex@189.62.126.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:39 ventonegro_ [n=alex@189.62.112.208] has joined #scheme 19:58:03 automejja [n=edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:07:19 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:46 ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 20:08:14 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.198.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:10:52 -!- ventonegro_ [n=alex@189.62.112.208] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:58 -!- automejja [n=edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:56 jonrafkind, what do you mean by `convert syntax to code'? 20:15:29 convert s-expressions into something that can be evaluated 20:15:35 without writing my own interpreter 20:15:51 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.201.167] has joined #scheme 20:15:54 *Riastradh* blinks. 20:16:11 S-expressions can be evaluated themselves, with EVAL. 20:16:15 -!- ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-69-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:15 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:16:25 right, so my question was without using EVAL 20:16:37 Why don't you want to use EVAL? 20:16:43 i dont mind, thats what im using now 20:16:48 ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-69-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 20:16:48 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:49 i was just wodnering if there was another way 20:17:00 *Riastradh* blinks. 20:17:20 Why would there be another way? That's what EVAL does. 20:17:39 where did that beard come from? answer me that scientist! 20:17:55 pantsd [n=hkarau@75-119-240-239.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 20:19:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-69-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:19:38 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:20:38 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:09 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-177-69-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:38 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:03 arcfide: there's jazzscheme coming up again; a bizarre language i have yet to meet in the wild 20:33:25 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@76-10-154-52.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:55 -!- ventonegro__ [n=alex@c951913d.virtua.com.br] has quit [No route to host] 20:33:58 ventonegro_ [n=alex@189.62.112.121] has joined #scheme 20:34:59 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.201.167] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:36:25 ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:42:05 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8182.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 20:43:13 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:44:29 scheme doesn't seem to be listed among homoiconic languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconic 20:44:38 is it implicitly homoiconic, being lisp-like? 20:45:11 they even mention the metacircular evaluator 20:45:16 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:24 "Scheme, on the other hand, is minimal to the point of uselessness unless augmented with non-standard libraries." 20:46:27 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=8 20:47:02 useless without librarys? Oh no! 20:47:30 I suppose that would be unlike C, which is very useful without libraries (such as stdlib.h) 20:48:10 gfb [i=ad22383a@gateway/web/freenode/x-e1e7c34beb2e84d3] has joined #scheme 20:48:48 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-59.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 20:49:29 \ 20:50:03 soupdragon: yeah, it's a bizarre critique; smacks of critique for the sake of critique: vacuous 20:50:22 are the SRFIs "non-standard libraries"? 20:53:16 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:06 dudleyf_ [n=dudleyf@63.72.167.170] has joined #scheme 21:00:03 -!- Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B54C61.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 21:03:09 -!- gfb [i=ad22383a@gateway/web/freenode/x-e1e7c34beb2e84d3] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 21:03:29 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:01 melgray [n=melgray@97-126-114-243.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 21:30:11 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 21:33:20 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:35:04 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:35:17 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8182.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 21:35:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8182.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:36:19 -!- copumpkin is now known as EnglishGentv2 21:37:17 -!- EnglishGentv2 is now known as copumpkin 21:41:28 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.43.162] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:42:06 -!- elibarzilay [n=eli@m765e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:28 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:51:33 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has joined #scheme 22:00:26 klutometis: at least someone is supposedly employing Schemers for Scheme. :-) 22:11:37 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 22:13:17 Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has joined #scheme 22:14:50 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:16:06 -!- Cowmoo` is now known as Cowmoo 22:17:07 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:24 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 22:26:32 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:46 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 22:26:52 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:56 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 22:35:50 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:41:15 -!- dudleyf_ [n=dudleyf@63.72.167.170] has quit [] 22:43:03 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:25 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-150-121.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:28 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057CF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:17 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:14 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:09 arcfide: i'm vying for board-approval of a COO-ship; at which point i'd like to hire some schemers, too 23:00:27 COO-ship? 23:01:01 johanhjn [n=johan@dsl-209-90-146-162.tor.primus.ca] has joined #scheme 23:03:51 -!- johanhjn [n=johan@dsl-209-90-146-162.tor.primus.ca] has left #scheme 23:10:22 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.123.91] has joined #scheme 23:15:04 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:12 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:27:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:30:54 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:02 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 23:33:27 is SISC the best scheme to write a GUI program in java with? 23:33:40 Well I mean scheme.. but rrunning on JVM 23:45:59 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:46:22 -!- pantsd_1 is now known as pantsd_ 23:48:24 soupdragon: I have never used SISC extensively, but apparently it is a pretty good Java based Scheme.