00:10:25 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 00:11:10 -!- Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat@78-106-86-253.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:07 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:29:23 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:44 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:19 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:49:08 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:00:54 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:09 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.188.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:40 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:23:19 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 01:26:27 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:33:09 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:34 *neilv* moves to plt 4.1.900 01:35:31 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:13 *offby1* moves to king's rook four 01:37:38 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-246.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:41 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:41:55 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:42:22 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:50:16 *klutometis* counters offby1's unorthodox desprez opening with a classic e5 01:56:23 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:02:00 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 02:02:13 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has left #scheme 02:03:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-251.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:47 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:07 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:08:46 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:59 if anyone can provide tips on how to improve the last algorithm here, i would be grateful :) 02:10:05 it's problem 12 on project euler 02:10:07 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1440500 02:22:55 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:23:22 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:24 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:26:25 offby1 pasted "project euler #12" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81065 02:26:30 *offby1* clears throat 02:26:41 now, you _might_ consider that cheating, but hey. 02:26:48 Why reinvent the wheel? :-) 02:27:26 *cel* looks 02:27:33 offby1: You are *so* a cheater. ;-) 02:27:45 definitely cheating 02:27:47 :P 02:28:22 *shrug* 02:28:36 most of my Project Euler solutions look like that. 02:29:16 it's good to do it that way too 02:29:31 but i prefer learning the math behind each problem 02:34:54 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.107.32] has left #scheme 02:38:15 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-98-238.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:50:50 incubot: math is too hard 02:50:53 That's also really hard to read... you can't tell whether - or / is the separator, so at first I thought it was a division operator. 02:51:03 right, exactly 02:52:19 sometimes I think that bot is READING my MIND 02:52:30 me too 02:53:06 incubot: scheme is too hard 02:53:10 btw. someone's trying to embed tiny-scheme (tiny-fu) into gimp. 03:00:49 STOP THEM! 03:01:02 which predicate checks whether an identifier has been defined? 03:04:29 I suspect there's no standard one. 03:04:45 In PLT scheme I assume it'd be some function having to do with 'namespaces' 03:04:45 I think I found it... identifier-binding 03:04:56 in PLT scheme 03:05:22 rudybot: doc identifier-binding 03:05:24 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 03:05:24 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/stxcmp.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._identifier-binding)) 03:06:22 rudybot: eval (identifier-binding cons) 03:06:22 *offby1: error: identifier-binding: expects argument of type ; given # 03:06:27 rudybot: eval (identifier-binding 'cons) 03:06:28 *offby1: error: identifier-binding: expects argument of type ; given cons 03:06:30 pff 03:06:39 I suspect identifier-binding is only useful inside a macro 03:06:48 rudybot: eval (identifer-binding (syntax cons)) 03:06:48 ice_man`: your sandbox is ready 03:06:49 ice_man`: error: reference to undefined identifier: identifer-binding 03:07:02 rudybot: eval (identifier-binding (syntax cons)) 03:07:02 ice_man`: ; Value: (# cons # cons 0 0 0) 03:07:10 rudybot: eval (identifier-binding (syntax basdfasdf)) 03:07:11 ice_man`: ; Value: #f 03:07:14 there ya go 03:07:25 sweet 03:07:35 now, what one does with (# cons # cons 0 0 0) is another question ... 03:08:06 not sure...the plt scheme docs are comprehensive but terse 03:09:29 ayup 03:09:43 lot better 'n they used to be though 03:10:24 yeap :) 03:18:12 The module path is a description of the binding -- where did you get it from, and where it was originally defined and under what name. 03:18:18 rudybot: describe cons 03:18:19 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 03:18:26 rudybot: help 03:18:26 eli: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 03:18:33 rudybot: desc cons 03:18:34 eli: your sandbox is ready 03:18:34 eli: `cons' is a bound identifier, defined in "#%kernel" required through "scheme/main.ss" 03:18:45 ThereYouGo. 03:21:46 oooh 03:22:43 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-98-216-70-18.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:00 outchanter [n=hrun@c-98-207-114-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:38 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-58-210-118.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:30:09 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-58-210-118.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:27 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:40:36 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:41:42 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:46:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-98-216-70-18.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:47:25 Hah, I just learned about Vi's W, B, and E commands. That makes life nicer. 03:47:44 rudybot: doc for/fold 03:47:44 cel: your sandbox is ready 03:47:44 cel: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/for.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fbase..ss)._for%2Ffold)) 03:47:51 Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:48:04 arcfide :) 03:48:08 cel: for/fold is _very_ cool 03:49:38 i saw it looking at your code in github 03:49:58 i was curious on how are the idiomatic solutions on project euler for PLT 03:50:13 for and for/fold seem nice 03:50:23 but the documentation is confusing 03:50:28 (at least for me) 03:50:49 i don't really understand how to do a simple loop with for 03:51:00 because the example is quite convoluted 03:51:50 cel: the reference is a ... reference. It's not a good place to learn about using it if you're new to the concept. 03:52:07 For that, the guide will be more effective: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/for.html 03:52:55 ah 03:53:00 *cel* takes a look 03:53:22 yep this looks a lot simpler :) 03:56:17 cel: If your goal is to write portable code then it won't help much, but just in case -- you can see http://docs.plt-scheme.org/getting-started/ for a bunch of introductory-kind of material for plt. 03:56:56 i prefer using just SRFIs code, maybe hash tables and regex too 03:57:11 just in case i decide migrating to another scheme later 03:57:20 but it's nice learning on that features 03:57:31 i mean, the (for ((in-range ... is awesome 03:57:44 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 03:57:56 very clean and helpful :) 03:58:17 i might try using those features if i finally get to try implementing that tri-towers solitaire 03:58:19 cel: grok this: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt 03:58:24 reasonably portable, to 03:58:27 too* 03:59:16 yep, read about the foof loop when arcfide showed me his petite chez libraries 03:59:26 it's great, it reminds me of lisp loop features 04:01:02 it's gonna be a long way :) 04:03:35 cel: It's more than just lisp loop features. In any case, there are a number of things to consider when implementing such a tool. 04:04:13 IMO, the current `for' and relatives in plt are the most convenient because the syntax is intentionally very close to `let'. 04:04:49 Sounds like a technicality, but it's a very important point. (And I'm speaking from experience of writing such a tool too.) 04:04:59 i like that they are also very straighforward to read too, very clear 04:05:39 Yeah, that's part of it. 04:05:41 about syntax beeing close to let, that should be good 04:05:50 consistency is very important for me on a language 04:06:05 i mean... no surprise, it does what you expect it should do 04:06:11 given the constructs you already know 04:06:37 Right -- the main problem with many loop constructs is -- if you need to open the manual each time you need one, then you'll not use it as often as you would otherwise. 04:07:06 in fact, that's why i use let loop or recursion 04:07:13 i often forget how de "do" loop works 04:07:20 *the 04:08:07 C is to blame too 04:08:15 Exactly -- `do' is a complete failure because nobody can remember how to use it... "I just use a named let instead" is a *very* common sentiment. 04:08:46 for example... 04:08:50 this do loop: 04:08:54 (do ((i 1 (+ i 1))) ((>= i sqr)) 04:09:05 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:09:08 if i were doing it by memory i would probably write... 04:09:24 (do ((i 1) (+ i 1) (< i sqr)) ...) 04:10:18 time and practice should correct this though, instead of going back to a file where "do" already works and copy/modify 04:10:25 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:10:34 That looks like an s-expression syntax for a C for loop... 04:10:43 yes 04:11:12 it's somewhat in my brain so i fall into it from time to time 04:11:54 Well, it's not popular enough in Scheme so most people don't have enough practice to make it stick in short-term memory. 04:12:06 eli: How easy is it to extend the PLT FOR constructs? 04:12:25 Not much different from foof-loop, as far as I know, arcfide. 04:12:34 That's cool. 04:12:51 There are two main ways to do so -- 04:12:54 The main difference is that PLT FOR works with PLT, whereas foof-loop works with any system that provides SYNTAX-RULES. 04:13:09 Of course. 04:13:29 one is to implement a new iteration form, by writing a new `for/foo' -- and usually do this by deriving `for/fold', 04:13:52 PLT FOR is also somewhat easier to extend for certain common cases, without involving macros. 04:14:26 another is to implement new kinds of sequences, which you can do either as a value, or as a macro with the right pieces. A value is usually more convenient for the obvious reasons, but a macro can make it as efficient as a hand-written loop. 04:16:14 One thing I like about foof loop, which appears to also hold true to some extent with the PLT FOR, is the speed with which they execute. I usually see almost no difference in speed if I don't do something stupid. 04:19:50 Def [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:51 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:59 xwl [n=user@114.245.142.67] has joined #scheme 04:22:19 arcfide: Yes, that's related to the second point I made. 04:22:46 For example `in-list' is a macro that also serves as a function that generates a sequence value: 04:22:52 rudybot: eval in-list 04:22:53 eli: your sandbox is ready 04:22:53 eli: ; Value: # 04:23:03 rudybot: eval (define foo (in-list '(1 2 3))) 04:23:18 rudybot: eval (for/list ([x foo]) (* x 10)) 04:23:18 eli: ; Value: (10 20 30) 04:23:31 But that's much slower than using it directly as 04:23:40 rudybot: eval (for/list ([x (in-list '(1 2 3))]) (* x 10)) 04:23:40 eli: ; Value: (10 20 30) 04:23:51 eli: right. 04:27:10 that looks suspiciously like a python list comprehension 04:29:30 ...which looks suspiciously like the other bazillion comprehensions around... 04:30:30 I'm not saying that's a bad thing :) 04:30:49 just makes it easier to remember 04:31:28 I'm saying that they all share a common ancestor (from math) which is also very natural. 04:34:32 yes 04:35:01 although as far as programming languages go, I heard that the Python syntax was inspired by Haskell. I'm not sure whether Haskell got it from another language. 04:35:43 maybe by Hope 04:35:56 or Miranda 04:37:40 To make what I'm saying even more specific: it's kind of pointless to look for who did it first, since this will take you back to the mathematical roots that existed before computers did. 04:38:10 Aren't Python comprehensions based on methods? 04:38:32 Well, at least these are all much easier to use than ... Java iterators. 04:38:53 ... which are in turn easier than STL. 04:38:54 or C++ iterators 04:40:33 The wikipedia page on the subject looks reasonable. (At least the top part of the page.) 04:44:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:52:39 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:56 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:26:28 karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:12 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-24-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 05:38:38 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:46:40 karlw_ [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:46:40 -!- karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:47 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:14 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:41 smtlaissezfaire [n=user@user-387hd0n.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 05:52:43 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@70-100-231-82.dr04.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:01 -!- karlw_ [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:59:34 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-24-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:16:16 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:38:24 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:47:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-32.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 07:17:14 Why would (eval (read ...)) raise a "compile: unbound identifier (and no #%app syntax transformer is bound) at" error? 07:19:57 smtlaissezfaire: Because there is no "default global namespace" to evaluate stuff in, and even if there was, it wouldn't be your own module's namespace. 07:20:39 smtlaissezfaire: Also see http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-July/025702.html -- specifically, the use of a namespace anchor at the end. 07:23:41 eli: Great! Thanks. Looks like I just wasn't using namespace-anchor->namespace properly. 07:23:59 BTW: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/eval.html#(part._.Local_.Scopes) 07:24:57 eli: Seems sort of counter-intuitive that I'd need to call define-namespace-anchor to get a hook into it 07:25:59 smtlaissezfaire: What about that doc page? 07:26:53 Also, re the use of namespace anchor -- it just doesn't work to have some global default, since your own module can be in a language with different semantics. 07:28:01 And if you make it use the local module's namespace implicitly then (a) it will be dangerous in exposing internal module functionality without people realizing it, and (b) it means that `eval' cannot be a function. 07:28:24 (b) is a subtle point, btw. 07:28:29 eli: What is a good alternative? 07:28:38 Is this sort of crazy meta-hackery? 07:29:20 A good alternative to what? 07:29:38 And what would be the meta hackery in what I said? 07:30:05 I was wondering if using eval & passing in the namespace is ugly "meta-hackery" 07:30:16 Not at all. 07:30:31 I'm new to scheme - Ruby is my primary language, and sometimes I see this really crazy insane stuff. 07:30:36 If you do that explicitly, then you know what you're exposing. 07:30:48 For example, if I have a module that looks like: 07:31:25 #lang scheme (define foo ...stuff...) (define (blah input-port) (eval (read input-port))) 07:32:06 and I intend this to be used with a network input -- then I usually wouldn't want to make that `eval' use the actual module's namespace 07:32:54 If I do that, then `foo' is effectively exposed to evaluations that are coming in through the network conncection; but `foo' might be an internal binding that shouldn't be exposed. 07:33:29 In a case like that, it will make more sense to have a fresh namespace created for such evaluations. 07:33:29 This is just the danger of evaling code from the outside world? 07:34:11 I guess your point is that eval is normally "safe", in the sense that it can access the internals of your code? 07:34:14 Well, the danger is always there -- and there are varying degrees of protection that you can get. A fresh namespace is a minor step. 07:34:34 An extreme example is the sandbox library, which provides you with complete safety. 07:34:48 rudybot: eval (define (foo) (cons 1 (foo))) 07:34:53 rudybot: eval (foo) 07:34:55 eli: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 07:35:17 or 07:35:27 rudybot: eval (delete-file "/etc/passwd") 07:35:27 eli: your sandbox is ready 07:35:28 eli: error: delete-file: `delete' access denied for /etc/passwd 07:35:31 eli: That must stop you from running system commands 07:35:34 yeah 07:35:47 rudybot: eval (system "whoami") 07:35:47 eli: error: reference to undefined identifier: system 07:35:55 rudybot: eval (require scheme/system) 07:35:56 rudybot: eval (system "whoami") 07:35:57 eli: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for /bin/sh 07:36:13 rudybot: eval (tcp-listen 9999) 07:36:13 eli: error: tcp-listen: network access denied: (#f 9999 server) 07:36:43 rudybot is implemented in plt, running through the sandbox library. 07:37:58 BTW: Is #lang scheme a PLT Scheme thing? And that wraps the thing in some sort of annonymous module, including the main scheme library? 07:38:15 The implementation of the bot includes some code for doing evaluation, so you (actually, offby1 that runs the bot) woudln't want random people being able to access the actual implementation of the bot. 07:38:50 Yes, `#lang scheme' is a plt scheme thing. It wraps the code in a module that has the semantics of the `scheme' langauge. 07:39:12 (The module is not anonymous, btw, it gets named after the file it appears in.) 07:39:50 eli: Good point. 07:39:59 re: the annonymous issue. 07:42:47 Axioplase [n=Pied@p2190-ipbf703aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:43:03 eli: Thanks for the help. Interesting stuff. 07:44:03 smtlaissezfaire: No problem. I'll send you the bill later on. 07:45:07 eli: Speaking of which, are there actually any scheme jobs out there? 07:45:28 :) They're hard to find, but they do exist. 07:45:39 I would assume there are probably a few lisp jobs. Probably in start ups. 07:46:18 Yeah. One of the major problems is that companies don't like to make it public that they use scheme or lisp for some reason that is beyond me. 07:46:57 memoize [n=memoize@beigetower/jaene] has joined #scheme 07:47:09 eli: Well, either they are a stealth startup, or they are a big company who is converting the lisp code to Java or something. 07:47:36 -!- memoize [n=memoize@beigetower/jaene] has left #scheme 07:48:01 I don't think it gives an investor comfort in believing that only a few people in the world could work with a code base. 07:48:08 Yeah, such conversions are also something that is beyond me. 07:48:26 smtlaissezfaire: you assume poorly 07:48:34 It happens pretty often, and at huge costs (more time, more code, less features), yet companies don't seem to learn a lesson. 07:49:26 Re the "few people" point -- the bottom line is supply vs demand, and in the scheme+lisp job "market", the supply of programmers is far greater than the demand for them. 07:49:27 I've done Scheme and Common Lisp in two companies, none were startups. One was small (20 people), the other was not (>80 people) 07:50:04 But, as bogus as it may be, it is a very common argument. 07:50:18 eli: I'd bet that there aren't a ton of really good scheme programmers out there. 07:50:23 Just like the bogus argument of "we'll use Java, since getting Java programmers is easy". 07:50:29 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:50:36 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:43 (What's easy is getting crappy Java programmers.) 07:50:47 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:51:08 smtlaissezfaire: No, not a ton -- but more than enough to fill the needs of new companies. 07:51:11 To my mind, people who say "I do Scheme, and would be happy to work in Scheme" are statistically good programmers 07:51:40 And if for some reason Scheme becomes popular enough in companies, then many more people would learn it, of course. 07:51:44 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-152-1-16-81.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 07:52:31 I would pay to work in scheme :) 07:52:33 I wasn't remembering that half of all programmers use Emacs. 07:53:20 Well, I don't know these days. Probably a ton of programmers use MS Visual whatever, or Netbeans, or whatever IDE is popular. 07:53:24 In scheme/lisp, yeah, emacs most of the time (but I'm focusing of fixing this mistake) 07:53:40 (vim4evah \o/) 07:54:07 emacs rules. 07:54:10 ice_man`: That's a statement that you can make during a very limited timeframe in your life. 07:54:30 Uh oh. I started a flame war. 07:54:35 eli: explain 07:54:36 Eventually, programmers need to buy food to put on their family too... 07:54:55 eli: can 07:55:02 smtlaissezfaire: No, I don't think that there's any schemer who is not aware of the sad reality. 07:55:04 eli: can't we have both though? 07:55:37 ice_man`: Both what? Scheme and being paid? Yes, it would be nice for this to be the common case. 07:56:24 But with the real world, most schemers end up doing work in something stupid like Java or C++, and Scheme turns to a side hobby. 07:56:44 eli: What are the reasons for not being able to find such a job? 07:57:40 Axioplase: The above -- companies who do need such people don't make it too public, and most managers are just crazy about mediocre and below programmers. 07:58:10 Axioplase: How did you get your first scheme job? 07:59:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:26 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:01:22 smtlaissezfaire: I sent an email with resume saying "you do scheme, I do scheme, let's mate". 08:01:50 I got an interview a couple of days later, a beer, and a job. 08:02:12 [I hope you used protection during the mating.] 08:03:04 Just google for "lisp jobs", or companies hosting functional programming meetings 08:03:51 Axioplase: Yeah, I've been meaning to hit up the local lisp/scheme group. 08:04:53 Axioplase: Had you released any open source scheme projects before that? What was your involvement with scheme before that first job? 08:05:14 Companies may also quote only one language, say Haskell of Caml. Those companies may have some lisp based projects too. (Though I don't care, I do Scheme, CL, OCaml, Haskell and Erlang. So any company using such language is a good candidate) 08:07:08 eli: I think the main problem with scheme is that there is a high minimum IQ to ride. At least a couple of standard deviations higher than the average programmer. 08:07:26 smtlaissezfaire: my involvement was a publication at a Scheme workshop. But actually, those companies want programmers who enjoy what they do. You don't have to be famous. You have to say something along "geez! Scheme is so cool. I bet you are too since you use it" (if you're honestly thinking so). 08:08:57 smtlaissezfaire: you want to work and to enjoy. Your employer is looking for guys who enjoy go to work. That's how google and others hire(d?) 08:10:30 How many scheme users are there in the world? Does anyone know? 08:10:56 Including universities' freshmen? 08:11:06 no 08:11:32 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 08:12:07 *wingo* would guess on the order of 10000, though i have no data 08:12:07 people who voluntarily pursue it 08:12:34 ice_man: http://www.langpop.com/ 08:14:10 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:19 Hey well it beat out fortran...it took 50 years, but it happened 08:15:28 I realize that previous argument makes absolutely no sense, alas, I stand by it 08:16:49 unrelated, but: What is the '#' syntax? What is "#("foo")" 08:16:57 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:17:18 Not exactly sure how to google such a thing. 08:17:36 npe [i=npe@d54C45161.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 08:17:51 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:58 isn't that a vector containing the string "foo"? 08:18:01 Oh. nm 08:18:02 yeah 08:18:15 Guess I *did* know how to google it. 08:24:21 davidad1 [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-THIRTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 08:24:41 -!- xwl [n=user@114.245.142.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:52 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 08:28:07 ice_man`, Axioplase, eli: Thanks for the info + wisdom. I'm off to bed. 08:31:17 -!- smtlaissezfaire [n=user@user-387hd0n.cable.mindspring.com] has left #scheme 08:35:28 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:36:40 is it just me or are the PLT scheme reference docs virtually incomprehensible? 08:39:03 I literally feel dyslexic trying to read them... 08:39:13 "For each pattern variable bound by the sub-pattern followed by ellipses, the larger pattern binds the same pattern variable to a list of values, one for each element of the syntax object matched to the sub-pattern, with an incremented depth marker." 08:39:38 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:58 ice_man`: It's a technical reference, not a textbook. See what I wrote earlier to cel. 08:45:38 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/ 08:45:38 eli: being a technical reference is one thing, being meaningless is another 08:45:56 outchanter: yes, I am aware 08:46:30 ice_man`: That text is not meaningless. 08:47:49 ice_man`: If you can come up with a better way to (precisely) describe the same information, then feel free to suggest it using a bug report, or an email to the mailing list, or bug me. 08:47:49 eli: it seems relatively ambiguous to me 08:48:02 What's ambiguous? 08:49:57 eli: what does "the larger pattern" refer to. What does "the same pattern" refer to? 08:51:10 ice_man`: This is talking about something like (foo (bar baz) ...) 08:51:33 The larger pattern in this case is the whole thing. 08:52:21 The nested sub-patter (bar baz) match any parenthesized expression with two things, and it binds `bar' to the first and `baz' to the second. 08:52:56 But the larger pattern (the whole thing) binds `bar' and `baz' to the *list* of such sub matches. 08:53:29 And there's a depth marker that makes sure that you use the pattern variable in a way that is consistent to the input. 08:54:06 This is what that sentence says, except in a much shorter way. 08:56:12 eli: I know it is incredibly difficult to specify code precisely and tersely, my comment was intended to be a joke to partially vent my frustration in trying to decypher the meaning of the sentence, and to admire the fact that every node of text in those docs is densely packed with meaning 08:56:58 In that case I didn't understand you, sorry. 08:57:54 My suggestion still stands -- it *is* difficult to understand, but personally, I find it extremely difficult to improve such texts without a downpour of verbiage and too many examples. 08:59:00 eli: no I'm sorry, it takes an incredible level of precision to specify those docs, my comment was not well thought out, and came accross as inappreciation, and I wish to retract it 09:00:17 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-152-1-16-81.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:00:20 eli: I am a die-hard PLT scheme fan, by the way, It is the most powerful tool in my arsenal 09:00:41 ice_man`: No problems -- the reason I repeated that was not an attempted flaming -- it can be a problem in many places (a problem that was important enough to justify writing the guides). 09:00:47 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 09:01:17 So the preferred solution these days would be to have more cross referencing to the guide, in the spirit of "for more examples see blah". 09:02:23 And especially if you're familiar with it, then any contribution to the docs is something that people welcome in open arms. 09:03:15 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 09:03:24 Oh, and another alternative to the reference style of writing can be seen here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/scribble/preprocessor.html 09:04:03 That's my attempt at writing something that works fine as a reference, but also contains lots of examples. 09:07:51 eli: The docs are fantastic, I was just joking around. I don't think I could do a better job myself. The content is dense in nature -- by design -- so it makes sense that the docs would be dense too. I program in ruby on rails on the side because its easy, and all the docs there are spoon-fed to me as if I were a lobotomized child. So it just takes a little getting used to reading something assuming an intelligent au 09:08:51 Scheme is where my heart is, and I am migrating all my old web-related code to scheme for my consulting company 09:09:13 :) 09:10:55 I would also like to express how grateful I am for your work, patience, and effort. If I find any way in which I can contribute, I will. 09:12:14 *eli* blushes 09:13:23 :) I must go to sleep now, thanks again though 09:14:04 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 09:33:45 is there a way to save an anonymous function to disk, or would the best approach be to save the s-exp and eval it? 09:37:02 cornucopic [n=r00t@192.18.192.21] has joined #scheme 09:40:18 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-207-60.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 09:40:23 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:41:14 although that doesn't work with continuations etc... 09:42:38 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 09:49:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 09:50:57 -!- davidad1 [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-THIRTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has left #scheme 09:53:31 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051012205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 09:57:58 outchanter: if your scheme has closures/continuations serialisation, you can dump it to disk 09:58:24 if not, then sexp+eval is your solution. 10:05:43 pants2 [n=hkarau@CPE0013f7c49feb-CM0013f7c49fe7.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 10:05:51 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@CPE0013f7c49feb-CM0013f7c49fe7.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:37 ok, thanks, I'll look into that 10:28:24 -!- npe [i=npe@d54C45161.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 10:47:22 -!- LunohoD [n=alex@e180067029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:35 LunohoD [n=alex@e180077116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:49:59 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.216.100] has joined #scheme 11:10:51 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:20:56 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:38:38 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@ti0056a380-0643.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 11:42:08 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:17 Edico 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also includes those comments? 14:32:38 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #scheme 14:32:48 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:33:53 yes 14:34:03 i want to generate html with syntax highlight 14:34:29 i suposse it could be possible to first read the file looking for just comments and lists 14:34:31 It sounds like you are going to need a parser to do that anyway 14:34:41 (syntax-highlight, I mean) 14:34:43 if it's a comment, store it's position 14:35:08 if a list, just use (read) and output each thing in the list with color 14:35:17 That will discard margin comments 14:35:27 oh, true 14:35:30 and sexpr comments 14:35:41 didn't thought of that, good catch 14:36:11 I always thought it odd that comments are completely discarded by the reader 14:36:41 it would be nice if it allowed to do things with them 14:36:49 yeah 14:36:53 even if it were for generating documentation 14:37:23 Or pretty-printing, or source transformation 14:37:28 There are many uses for that 14:37:35 agree 14:37:55 m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 14:39:57 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:32 ideally you'd have something written in scribble, not scheme 14:47:19 on another hand... 14:47:32 it would also be useful to automatically indent code correctly 14:48:05 by using the pretty-print thing 14:48:30 *cel* will take a look at scribble, never heard of it 14:48:56 it's a markup language 14:49:15 the PLT people invented it, and it's used for PLT's documentation. 14:49:28 It makes good-looking HTML output, and is probably pretty flexible 14:51:34 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-176-13-35.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:49 it looks nice for people writing a book on scheme 14:53:07 remembers me of slatex 14:58:30 yep 14:58:43 I think the PLT docs had previously been done with LaTeX, but they were a mess 14:59:21 hopefully i can get scribble to avoid writing that chapters/version and other information 14:59:32 and just generate a html from a .ss file 15:05:08 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.94.243] has joined #scheme 15:06:39 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 15:08:33 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:09:25 wy_ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:42 duno 15:09:45 never really used it 15:11:26 it seems it stores things in a struct when you use (scheme your-scheme-code) 15:11:47 then it has a scribble/html-render 15:12:07 probably read on the two and some work should do it 15:12:20 looks very nice for typesetting anything on scheme 15:16:31 -!- wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:16:45 -!- wy_ is now known as wy 15:16:56 wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 15:22:17 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.49.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:20 -!- barney 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16:20:34 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:20:55 cel: sure, redownloading would be silly 16:20:56 i would like to use some packages on a laptop without network at work 16:21:13 download what you need first 16:21:17 can i copy them? will it use the cached version if there is no network? 16:21:21 yep yep 16:21:29 oh nice :) thanks 16:21:38 easiest way would probably be to connect the laptop to a network and just run the code once. 16:22:05 Failing that, figure out (somehow) which .plts you need, download 'em by hand, get 'em onto the laptop, and then install 'em using the "planet" command-line program. 16:22:12 Of whose spelling I am uncertain. 16:22:16 i like the holw planet idea 16:22:22 *whole 16:22:30 it's ... interesting. 16:22:32 it's like apt-get 16:22:38 yep 16:23:33 hard to maintain and ensure quality though i suposse 16:24:59 sure, but they don't make any guarantees about quality, either. 16:25:07 In my experience: anything 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[n=user@dslb-088-064-153-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 21:19:15 neofreak [n=melatoni@ni.fe.up.pt] has joined #scheme 21:19:19 Hello. 21:20:11 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 21:20:48 I'm writing a client-server application where the server is written in scheme. I can connect to it using telnet and the server reads correctly whatever I send to it, but I'm having trouble sending information to the client. Should I do something more than (write-string "hello" me->client) ? 21:21:14 I've tried terminating the string with \0 and using serialize, but nothing seems to work :( 21:21:24 help? 21:21:59 you flushing after writing? 21:22:29 no, not really. lol 21:22:47 thanks, that should do it 21:22:53 :) 21:23:14 :D 21:24:42 npe_ [i=npe@94-224-248-18.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:25:44 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:25:55 hey grettke 21:26:27 hey leppie how are you? 21:26:36 im fine thx and you? 21:27:13 Doing well enough. 21:27:20 I am trying to build Ikarus on OS X. 21:27:45 it sounds like you are having a hard time 21:28:18 Yes the 'trying' part gave it away eh? :) 21:29:27 Is it summer where you are now? 21:29:29 yes 21:29:35 nope, not summer 21:29:44 freezing here 21:30:05 gosh 21:30:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:26 lowlycoder [n=x@DNab43896b.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:31:30 what are you up to today? 21:32:10 i slept most of the day after working on some more debugging stuff for IronScheme 21:32:34 nice weekend then 21:32:39 yeah 21:32:45 its cold and wet 21:32:55 drinking hot chocolate? 21:33:48 nope, beer :) 21:34:38 That works too. Many imports? 21:35:08 well i drink amstel, no sure if that's imported or still made locally 21:36:10 -!- npe_ [i=npe@94-224-248-18.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:36:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:38:14 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-175-96.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:54 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 21:42:03 -!- npe [n=npe@91.179.92.233] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:42:23 anyone have an eta on savannah? 21:45:08 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 21:45:13 cel: just write the full parser, man; it's a wonderful learning experience 21:46:24 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:42 Amstel is Dutch. But that doesn't mean it cannot be brewn elsewhere. 21:51:24 yeah, it used to be brewed locally, but then the license expired, and then something happened, and we get it again 21:51:44 i cant find info on bottle :| 21:52:03 Now you'll never know the most important fact in life! 21:52:08 What a disaster. 21:53:12 Here, in Milwaukee, WI, there used to be a major brewery, Miller, I think they were purchased by a South African brewer. I guess they are moving to Chicago now. 21:55:25 Seems to be a tough market for brewers. 21:58:25 mmc [n=mima@cs168106.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:59:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@242-29-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee#Brewing 22:04:11 Yea that is it 22:04:49 incubot: Milwaukee was once the home to four of the world's largest breweries [Schlitz, Blatz, Pabst, and Miller], and was the number one beer producing city in the world for many years. 22:04:52 1. (lib "foo.ss" "blatz") is kept for compatibility; (lib "blatz/foo.ss") should be used now. 22:08:48 :) 22:09:16 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.235.176.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:01 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:37 incubot: Freezing ... it was freezing cold in that hotel. 22:14:39 No, I'm freezing. This can't be healthy. 22:14:52 incubot: I had no money, my special friend was gone. 22:14:55 What about a label owned by a friend of the artist? 22:15:06 incubot: The TV set was busted, so she went along. 22:15:09 It splices sequences and processes both kinds of definitions as it goes along. 22:19:36 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@242-29-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:23:45 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-13-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:25:55 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["restart"] 22:30:01 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 22:34:05 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-111-85.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["      "] 22:37:28 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051048231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:45:09 -!- mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 22:50:16 dnm_ [n=dnm@250.sub-75-222-67.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 23:02:00 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-13-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:07:38 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@ti0056a380-0643.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:12 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:16 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 23:11:49 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:23 incubot: not two, but three snoring dogs is oppressively mammalian; it fucks with my schlaff 23:20:26 My cat is snoring 23:20:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-32.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:22 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:21:46 .oO("schlaff"?) 23:21:46 incubot: you and me baby, we ain't nothing but cyber-mammals 23:21:49 Family Guy doesn't do much for me. In theory an evil super-genius baby and a debonair talking dog ought to be right up my alley, but there's too much cringe-worthy material in it. Deliberately so, obviously. 23:22:48 If the evil super-genius baby were allowed to be just that, instead of the constant stream of crude stupidity jokes, it might work. 23:26:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:29:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:19 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:21 incubot: do you live for work? 23:47:24 (Images of tyrannosaurs, pterodactyls, and prehistoric savagery...) `Calvin, what state do you live in?' `Eek! ... Denial.' 23:48:08 incubot: yeah, it all feels cartoonish to me, too. 23:48:11 hmmm... feels different to me 23:48:26 incubot: traitor! 23:48:29 In my case, I couldn't figure out which of my friends was the traitor. 23:56:00 I have a question. For syntax case, this works: (define-syntax (start-server stx) 23:56:00 (syntax-case (list (datum->syntax stx 'stop-server stx)) () 23:56:00 ((stop) (syntax (define stop (serve 8088)))))) 23:56:25 but it doesn't work if the syntax-object expression is not a list, why? 23:57:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:59:42 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-201.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"]