00:09:37 -!- acarrico2 is now known as acarrico 00:12:46 -!- grnman_ [i=grnman@shell.thehostbusters.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:50 grnman [n=grnman@shell.thehostbusters.com] has joined #scheme 00:20:59 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.194.45] has joined #scheme 00:29:12 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:24 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:23 incubot: i wonder if it's a coincidence that julie andrews gets cast in so many nanny roles 00:32:26 You might also like Andrews Liver Salts 00:33:28 incubot: looks here like they relieve, "symptoms of over-indulgence"; just what we need for the last days of the american empire 00:33:31 Viruses suck. No real treatment, and they cause more debilitating symptoms because of the chemicals released from lycing cells and the resulting immune response. 00:39:32 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.181.250] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:45:16 eli: PLT doesn't honour PREFIX: 00:45:27 plt-r5rs 00:45:27 lib: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "r5rs" in any of: (# #) in: (lib "r5rs/run.ss") 00:45:45 mred 00:45:45 lib: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: # in any of: (# #) in: (lib "scheme/gui/init") 00:45:45 standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "mred" in any of: (# #) 00:45:58 Where PREFIX=/home/asau/pkg 00:46:25 Or is it broken in another way? 00:48:05 Hm. 00:48:15 It doesn't install that file or directory at all. 00:48:30 Alright, this is later. 00:48:32 Good night. 00:53:03 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 01:05:21 cel [n=cel@105.Red-79-150-207.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:45 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:12:51 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 01:13:43 arcfide: I truly don't see what's the big confusion over. `define' is the tool you use to create a new binding, `set!' is the tool that modifies a binding; in scheme, a toplevel `define' is some of both -- which is what's broken about it. 01:14:45 This is very obvious when there are macros involved -- if `foo' is a macro, then `define'-ing it to something else is meaningless as mutation. And the same goes in the other direction too -- when it is bound to a value and redefined as a macro. 01:26:57 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:27:33 travisbrady [n=travisbr@c-69-181-2-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:53 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:29:56 anyone have a recommendation for an easy to install scheme implementation with a REPL to run via the console? 01:30:25 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:31:53 -!- eli is now known as biased-eli 01:31:59 travisbrady: PLT Scheme. 01:32:07 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.62.104] has joined #scheme 01:32:21 biased-eli: ok, i had thought that or Chicken, i'll go with PLT 01:32:28 :) 01:32:32 but but he's biased! 01:32:46 who isn't? 01:32:48 :P 01:33:03 travisbrady: Download the full PLT, and to get your console prompt, use the `mzscheme' executable. 01:33:12 -!- biased-eli is now known as eli 01:33:57 by the way... on PLT... 01:34:09 i have been taking a look at the card games that come with it 01:34:10 travisbrady: I *am* biased though, which is why I usually don't do recommendations. (At least not here.) 01:34:27 do they work on all systems PLT runs? (i only have Win32) 01:34:34 cel: Yes. 01:34:44 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-205.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:44 i'm thinking of trying to program a Tri Towers solitaire 01:35:03 eli nice, thanks 01:35:09 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-78.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:35:19 cel: And IMO it's pretty impressive -- especially when you deal with low level handlers like `on-char' and you then find out that it works the same on OSX and Windows. 01:35:26 *eli* is on Linux, mostly 01:36:16 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #scheme 01:36:47 mmmm 01:36:56 never thought of it really 01:37:25 but i think cards games are probably easier on scheme than other type of games 01:37:38 so besides euler problems would be a nice hobby project 01:38:14 Well, there's a bunch of completely different games too. It just happens that there's a bunch of card games since they were the earliest examples. 01:38:50 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:40:55 the checkers example is pretty impressive 01:41:44 There's even an opengl game (jewel) which works impressively nicely. 01:41:52 the only thing i find a bit strange... is there are no arcade samples, i mean, things like tetris or arkanoid 01:42:32 yep, jewel is nice too :) 01:42:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-225-109.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 01:43:24 Well, jewel is arcade-ish. There's also some games that are based on allegro -- you can ask on the list for pointers, or hunt kazzmir (Jon Rafkind) when he's here. 01:43:29 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-225-109.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:24 allegro, interesting 01:44:35 i'm used to SDL and Allegro in C 01:45:16 i'll take a look but for now... looking at the source and how the card games are made will be enough 01:45:45 it's still difficult to map some concepts like "game loop" into Scheme for me 01:47:05 TimMc [n=timmc@aurail.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:48:57 cel: It depends on how much programming experience you have, but some of the educational material fits very well into a "game loop" kind of thing, and uses it heavily to teach functional programming. 01:49:05 cel: You can find that at http://world.cs.brown.edu/ 01:49:38 thanks :) 01:50:55 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:08 i have some experience, read SICP, did the examples, wrote other programs like interpreters or simple websites, tried Common Lisp or Qi, pattern matching utils... 01:51:23 but at the end after all i still find it difficult 01:51:29 my brain is somewhat procedural 01:51:41 still i like it :) 01:51:59 it's like a new challengue everytime 01:53:51 cel: In that case, that URL might be useful -- it is especially aimed at educating people in good functional programming. For example, the whole "game loop" thing comes in by the fact that your main interface is a function that you write that given the current world, produces a new one -- so it is all very functional. 01:55:39 :) yes, seems quite good 02:20:15 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:22:53 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:06 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 02:25:39 chandler: The benchmark is the _worst_ possible case for UTF-8, as later articles will show. 02:28:28 As the article says, I'm assuming that once you choose your string representation you work with sensible APIs and idioms to match. This means string pointers for UTF-8, and no mutations. 02:30:27 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:31:16 foof: Is your http server code available somewhere? 02:31:39 dudleyf: no, I don't want to maintain it for anyone other than myself at the mmomeny 02:31:46 err, moment 02:32:51 fair enough 02:34:33 p1dzkl: That's a cute bug... it's from the conversion from wiki->html->sxml->html. 02:40:41 A 24-bit representation would be interesting. That's what Emacs uses. 02:42:59 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 02:43:13 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-156-160.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:10 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.62.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:08 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:48:34 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:07 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176217171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:52:16 that http://world.cs.brown.edu might've helped that trollish guy who was in here the other day... can't remember his nick 02:54:39 on procedures, how do people feel about keyword arguments that set a value based on the presence of the keyword, without needing to provide a value? 02:55:01 for example: (foo #:blah) rather than (foo #:blah #t) 02:58:01 (pg-declare-cursor conn "SELECT * FROM foo;" #:binary? #t #:insensitive? #t #:scroll 'legacy #:hold? #t) 02:58:24 (pg-declare-cursor conn "SELECT * FROM foo;" #:binary #:insensitive #:scroll 'legacy #:hold) 02:58:53 is that uppercase necessary? 02:59:10 neilv: I think I like the second one better 02:59:18 in reality, you'll be using sexp for the sql 02:59:29 It has symmetry with command-line args 02:59:58 i kinda like the second one better too. but symmetry with command-line is not a priority 03:01:23 Well, no, I can't imagine it would be 03:02:15 the other way that i wish plt keyword args were different were if the reader treated symbols beginning with ":" as keywords 03:02:42 "#:foo" is ugly. ":foo" is pretty 03:03:57 neilv: It's nice to hear someone who knows what they're talking about agree with me ;-) 03:04:17 'foo: is prettier :P 03:04:33 (and portable) 03:04:41 You might get me with foo:, but not 'foo: 03:04:44 foof: i typed that but then deleted my heresy before hitting enter 03:05:55 one nice thing about "foo:" is that it's intuitive to someone new to the language. not that that's ever been a priority with scheme 03:06:46 although i think i prefer how ":foo" lines up, if i have a list of keyword arguments, one per line 03:07:40 neilv: Writing a reader to convert :one or the other: is extremely simple, in plt this was not done because of the controversy. (And 'foo: is definitely not used because we don't want to pollute the space of valid values.) 03:07:50 I'm willing to compromise either way, as long as I can keep the #'s to a minimum 03:08:13 Yes, the #'s are hideous, I'll take a ' prefix any day over that. 03:08:22 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176193224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:23 agreed 03:08:28 neilv: As for "flag" arguments -- this was a feature in the old mzlib/kw library -- I added it after Sam asked for it; and nobody has used it even once (including Sam). 03:08:58 --> 'foo: is definitely not used because we don't want to pollute the space of valid values. 03:09:21 Pollute the space of valid values? 03:09:31 oh 03:10:06 Because you allow mixing optional and keyword args. 03:10:14 foof: Yes, we can currently have clearly different meaning for (foo 'bar 'baz) and (foo #:bar 'baz). 03:10:22 eli: i realize why plt did keywords not as magically-named symbols. magic symbols are controversial. i really don't like how the "#:" dominates the source code, however 03:10:34 pants2 [n=hkarau@69-196-168-82.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 03:11:15 neilv: *visually* I agree with that, but for solving the problem, they work much better than any alternative. 03:11:38 i think i'm going to make quack make them yellow 03:11:59 Make them light grey. 03:12:08 or light gray 03:12:22 Now that's just silly! 03:12:29 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:59 They are yellow in my butchered scheme.el setup -- but I don't remember if that was originally there or if it's part of the butchering. 03:13:11 i try to make special syntax bold black. so keywords that are bold light-gray would be somewhat analogous. and then we could drop the bold 03:13:41 Black text? Eww... 03:13:48 the curl editor had a very nice yellow color for keywords. it was pleasing to look at 03:16:55 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:17:01 But if they're ugly don't you want to make them stand out _less_? 03:17:39 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 03:17:41 yes, i'm going to try bold 50% gray. if i can remember how quack works 03:18:08 Make the octothorpe 25% gray, and the rest of the keyword 50%. 03:18:57 (assuming a light background) 03:18:58 Dimming them is bad -- they're still important. 03:19:04 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@69-196-130-232.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:02 You can still see them when dimmed, and the fact that the octothorpe is there is immediately obvious from the highlighting of the keyword. 03:20:35 you know. with emacs, i could make the octothorpe be hidden :) 03:21:24 inserts before the colon could be inserted before the octo, and deleting the colon would make the octo reappear 03:21:27 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:44 *eli* find this suspiciously similar to bad attempts to getting rid of `lambda'. 03:21:46 i would not actually do this 03:22:42 It's exactly the same thing -- `lambda' is an awful syntax for something so useful, something like `fun' or `fn' would do better, etc etc. 03:23:06 lambda is there for historical reasons. "#:" is more of a new offense 03:23:52 `#:' is there for historical reasons too! srfi-whatever was a strong reason for not using `:foo' keywords. 03:23:58 I have Emacs display all my lambdas as  03:24:29 (The srfi with the list comprehension-like stuff, which uses some obnoxious :do-stuff as names for macros.) 03:24:59 a srfi like that should not be a barrier 03:25:14 Well, it was a factor in the decision. 03:26:01 If there was no previous code that used `:foo' symbols, it would have been easier to choose; and if there was no history for using `:foo' keywords, then `foo:' could be much more popular. 03:26:01 *foof* wants a lambda chair 03:26:25 *eli* suspects that this chair builds on the other magical meaning of "lambda" 03:26:46 ...hence the exaggerated price. 03:27:10 i added pretty-lambda to quack, but the lambda i get with my 6x13 font is ugly 03:27:38 I had to play with the fonts before I found with with a nice lambda. 03:28:03 Is there a way to play with just the font of lambda? 03:28:21 no 03:28:24 http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/68ea0d6eb7.png 03:28:46 Yeah, that's what mine used to be. 03:28:53 in emacs 22, i think i could. originally quack was HIGHLY portable among emacsen 03:28:55 Ugh. 03:31:22 http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.png 03:31:55 can you even see my font? 03:32:12 Barely... 03:32:27 I like bold, I like sans serif, and I like big letters. 03:32:28 i view the 6x13 font on a 14-inch 1400x1050 pixel display 03:32:39 *eli* twitches 03:32:57 I've been hacking for about 30 years now, and I still don't need glasses. 03:33:31 me neither, though i have only 25 years 03:33:34 eli: I'm all for sans serif big letter, but I like white-on-black. 03:34:08 Bold depends on the font. 03:35:05 I almost always increase the zoom level of websites, especially blogs and wikis. 03:35:27 And if I had a convenient way to make it white on black, I'd do that too. 03:35:42 -!- ggbbgg [n=russ@c-24-6-33-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:35:44 I just don't like the screen to scream at my face like that. 03:35:58 Maybe that's a leftover from bad crt displays. 03:36:25 (oops, black-on-white) 03:36:45 [That was my guess.] 03:36:53 One nice thing about Firefox is you can specify a minimum font size, so fancy nancies can customize all they want, but it won't get too small. 03:37:28 I kind of like white on black... doesn't matter to me though as long as there's enough contrast. 03:37:28 And that will make lots of websites appear broken. 03:37:50 *cel* has been hacking for 15 and still needs glasses :\ 03:38:04 Actually I usually pick a very light pastel background for my webpages, so that it won't glare. 03:39:37 Many flat screen monitors will totally wash out small black text on white. If I take up the brightness too high on this one it gets literally impossible to read (not brighter). 03:42:49 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:45:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:49 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:54 raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ef111ced6e19f84e] has joined #scheme 03:49:07 underspecified [n=eric-n@leopard175.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:55:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:58:22 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 04:03:39 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:04:34 karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:38 I'm curious about how SRFI's are going along. 04:06:38 I have an idea for a partially non-portable SRFI. 04:07:20 chris2 [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:11:18 Actually, several ideas. Like interactive shell syntax and maybe a loop macro or useful text-processing functions. 04:13:44 my suggestion is to make a library and work the kinks out first 04:15:36 -!- p1dzkl [n=p1dzkl@1505ds1-str.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:29 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:43 also, the scsh people, for one, have done substantial work on the posix-ish shell syntax one, so i would look at that 04:18:49 Scsh seems like it hasn't had a release in a while. 04:19:26 olin injured his trigger finger. is laying low 04:20:16 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:40 scsh syntax is full of holes 04:21:19 Hmm... http://www.scsh.net/resources/commander-s.html 04:22:37 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 04:22:58 welcome to 20+ years ago 04:23:33 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:23:55 thanks! 04:24:08 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 04:24:15 ;) 04:24:16 heh 04:24:46 I thought a good syntax would be like #c( . ) 04:25:08 oh 04:25:24 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:25:33 there's a lot more involved if you want to fork processes. there's a bunch of different interfaces for that 04:25:33 Or !(blah) 04:25:49 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:26:15 Except ! is a symbol 04:26:29 you could whip one up in a few lines of code in plt scheme, as a front-end to their process libraries 04:26:39 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:27:04 if you do it as "(! ...)" then you don't even need to change the reader. you can do it with syntax-rules 04:27:35 It's best to just get something out there for people to play with. 04:27:52 people are already doing that and more sophisticated things 04:28:06 jlongster [n=user@68.59.187.95] has joined #scheme 04:28:09 they have no reason to move to a srfi that does less 04:28:17 Or use '(! ...) and do it with lambda. 04:28:19 you have to really figure it out 04:28:52 It'll be a good exercise anyway, I suppose. 04:29:09 definitely hack something up 04:29:50 i've written dozens of libraries, including a few that are used on many different schemes. but srfi is a different deal. for something that is figured out and ready to standardize on 04:30:53 I guess Scheme is all about fun (which is why I like it), but I really want to see it go mainstream. 04:31:17 actually, you don't 04:31:27 yeah, if it went mainstream, java programmers would use it. Eww. 04:31:31 have you ever tried to find authoritative information on some concept in java? 04:31:44 Like if Eurodance became popular in the US 04:31:49 it's a massive cesspool of tens of thousands of people talking about things they don't understand 04:32:24 mostly beginners who were told that writing articles would advance their careers, it seems like 04:32:56 lol 04:33:06 i need to frame that :) 04:34:02 The Java Wikibook seems like people with brain damage wrote it. 04:34:47 (I have CP, so I'm allowed to use ``brain damage'' pejoratively) 04:35:01 leppie: Eurodance? 04:35:21 no the thing neilv said, just before I lol'ed 04:36:05 neilv: http://offby1-whining.blogspot.com/2008/12/pentaho.html being my confirmation of your statement 04:37:04 karlw: Carpal Punnel? 04:37:23 Cerebral palsy. 04:38:03 pshaw 04:38:13 XML is a crime against humanity. 04:39:13 I'm not a big fan of XML. Heck if I know of a better solution though. 04:39:25 Semantic Web is a great idea, but it's not well designed. 04:39:56 I don't know how well designed it is or not, because I have yet to understand how the heck it works. 04:40:18 if we're gonna sit around and whine, we might as well be drinking 04:40:31 *offby1* scrounges an old Jameson's bottle and passes it around 04:41:21 I'm already too messed up to even think about using alcohol to make it worse. 04:42:17 Sexp's, on the other hand, would be great for math. 04:42:56 There has to be some LaTeX->sexp parser. 04:43:47 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 04:43:48 -!- karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:44:01 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:44:02 karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:45 Not to mention all the computer algebra software written in Lisp. 04:50:43 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 05:00:38 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:06:22 incubot: The original LP ends with the sound of a dripping tap which continues into the inner groove, and thus plays on indefinitely. 05:06:24 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:06:25 riasail (v): tear asunder; riasladh (n): mangling, tearing asunder; riastradh (n): turbulence, confusion, wandering; riach (v): groove, graze; riadh (n): snare. 05:06:52 we hates 'im, incubot 05:09:43 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #scheme 05:09:55 sladegen: what LP is that? 05:09:59 and what's an "LP"? 05:10:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LP_album seems to make the most sense 05:11:44 offby1: It's kind of like a stegosaurus, but disc shaped and made out of vinyl plastic. 05:12:47 wow, weird 05:13:08 does it chase cartoonists, the way velociraptors do? 05:13:30 what the general name of a funcion that generates a sequence of integers from n to p ? 05:13:51 Like (func 3 7) -> (3 4 5 6 7) 05:14:03 "range" maybe? 05:14:09 nice 05:14:11 thx 05:14:18 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:23 rudybot: eval (build-list 5 (lambda (x) (+ x 3))) 05:14:24 *offby1: ; Value: (3 4 5 6 7) 05:14:24 *karlw* realizes that his apartment windows aren't velociraptor-proof. 05:14:33 quack now fontifies plt-like keywords. http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2009/05/#2009-05-27 05:14:38 yay 05:15:05 Quack is pretty good. 05:16:59 Most Emacs modes need to be redesigned. 05:17:07 get to it 05:17:24 offby1: it's from wikipedia's description of pink floyds atom heart mother. (first hit in google if you re-paste that sentence) 05:17:31 huh 05:17:38 I probably owned that at one point 05:17:45 search quack.el for "ADMONISHMENT TO IMPRESSIONABLE YOUNG SCHEME STUDENTS" 05:17:46 that's the one with the picture of a cow, if I recall correctly. 05:17:53 yes 05:20:19 is there some good completion system for MzScheme for Emacs? dynamically recognizing new definitions and loaded modules etc.? 05:20:50 in theory, "geiser" 05:21:10 and in reality? 05:21:13 meh 05:21:21 Maybe I should listen up; I need a good scheme emacs mode. 05:21:21 try it, but I got nowhere 05:22:12 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:22:49 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.185] has joined #scheme 05:23:16 Most of Emacs *is* hacked together 05:23:33 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:23:59 and it's still bleeding... bandage sold seperately. 05:24:14 Oh, coffee break, I'd better work on perl-mode 05:25:21 The ELisp Manual is convoluted and Chassell's book is terrible. 05:26:43 We need to purge emacs and write a Scheme-based editor. 05:27:10 a new version of quack is out? i guess i failed in my attempt to get on the mailing list when a new release comes out 05:28:18 *karlw* decides he should join the mailing list. 05:29:01 whoah. 05:29:09 The elisp manual is pretty good. 05:30:28 I'm spoiled by R5RS. 05:31:22 But, yeah, Chassell's book sucks. 05:32:10 karlw: do it 05:32:48 But first let me finish my pseudo-scheme so we can base it off of that 05:33:44 *karlw* decides to read the ELisp Manual for a period longer than 5 minutes before classes start. 05:35:00 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:38:00 I tried to learn ELisp a few times, but then I realized I was in school. 05:39:03 So I suppose a criticism of the manual is more properly a criticism of Elisp. 05:41:22 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:47:41 -!- karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:13 karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:55 By the way, does PLT have a simple way to modify the reader? 05:49:05 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 05:49:37 That depends on how simple you want it. 05:50:10 Like adding a new literal type. 05:50:42 Adding a new type is unrelated to the reader. 05:51:41 Like if I wanted #foo%num to return a decimal num in octal. 05:52:20 rudybot: eval #x100 05:52:21 eli: your sandbox is ready 05:52:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:52:21 eli: ; Value: 256 05:52:28 What's wrong with that? 05:53:02 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:53:08 eli: you mean #o ? 05:53:34 Oh, yes. 05:54:22 I'm just giving a trivial example, I know about base representation literals. 05:54:39 eli: let's say there was no #rx, and karlw wanted to add it 05:55:22 (note that you almost never want to extend the scheme reader) 05:55:46 Writing a concrete syntax extension is usually hard, which is why I asked that -- you shouldn't jump to it if you don't really need it. 05:56:15 It involves editing C? 05:56:24 [Not at all.] 05:56:25 But if you do, then in PLT you should start by learning how to use readtables (start with looking that up in the docs). 05:56:46 Then you'll want to look at the syntax/module-reader to see how to make this a robust reader. 05:56:59 it's also a pain to use unless you get it added to plt, or unless you're implementing a substantially new scheme dialect 05:57:09 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:15 because all of a sudden your code is dependent on a custom reader 05:57:27 neilv: It shouldn't be a pain -- it should work in the same way if it's from planet or not. 05:57:35 s/same/similar/, of course. 05:57:55 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 05:58:09 code dependent on a macro is less needy than code dependent on a reader extension, imho 05:58:11 I thought about implementing Logo-like syntax. 05:58:19 But more information about the problem can mean that a solution is simpler. For example, something like reading `:foo' as `#:foo' can be done without dealing with the reader. 05:59:01 Though I fail to see who would use it. 05:59:01 neilv: I don't know what exactly you mean by "needy", but code that depends on a reader extension is obivously *much* more work. 05:59:26 karlw: If you want a completely different language, then it's probably best to look up existing code. 05:59:48 For example, you could start with something like Jay's datalog language -- it has a simple parser. 06:00:13 i admit. i did briefly consider implementing cobol in plt, expanding to scheme code 06:00:38 then i decided to implement things i would actually use 06:01:10 Well, a Logo interpreter for PLT may be good for high schools. 06:01:37 karlw: Heh, try to say that on the plt scheme list. 06:02:15 logo is for little kids 06:02:35 seymour papert's office used to be two doors down from mine. i know these things by osmosis 06:02:37 [Gets them on imperative drugs from young age.] 06:02:50 Corrupt innocent children by making them into Lisp programmers. 06:03:37 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:03:46 neilv: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v3ch6/ai.html 06:04:32 Oh yeah, http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v3ch5/langi.html 06:04:59 at the high school level, they should be working through htdp 06:05:10 smart 12 year-olds can do it too 06:05:32 sicp is awesome 06:05:54 (I'm a math major) 06:05:58 sicp is great for making students hate scheme 06:06:33 although this makes sicp prettier: http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ 06:06:43 sicp is awesome for some definition of "awsome"... 06:09:15 SICP is more of ``let's cram obscure theory down your throat'' 06:10:40 I personally think introductory CS should use lazy scheme. 06:11:19 Or Haskell. 06:12:19 Actually, R5RS is better than SICP. 06:13:52 *karlw* wants to build the Explicit-Control Evaluator. 06:14:18 just do it 06:14:26 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:14 scheme is great as a language construction kit. you can often get new language constructs up and running using just a macro or two, or a few procedures, in an hour 06:15:22 underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:15:24 But yeah, SICP isn't good for teaching beginners how to program. 06:15:40 anyway, enough talk. more code 06:17:23 Are there any widely-used interactive shells? 06:19:05 *karlw* shuts up and starts reading documentation. 06:19:29 karlw: what would possess you to make such a bald assertion with no argument? 06:20:06 incubot: all these fucking nietzsche-wannabees 06:20:09 anyway, "pfft" is the dismissive sound we French (or French wannabees) make with our mouths. 06:20:18 indeed 06:20:21 Fatigue. 06:20:32 karlw: heh 06:21:58 My brain seems focused on obscure anime music now. 06:22:15 underspecified__ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-239.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:22:32 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:23:53 O_o 06:24:27 Yes (sigh), I'm 20. 06:25:12 karlw_ [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:25:12 -!- karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:57 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:44 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 06:28:47 *karlw_* devises new ways to use his immaturity to annoy people on IRC 06:30:55 -!- karlw_ [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:31:09 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:38:01 "DECLARE cursor14479808 BINARY INSENSITIVE SCROLL CURSOR WITH HOLD FOR SELECT * FROM foo;" 06:38:07 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-142.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:38:16 interesting language. i hope to mostly hide it with scheme 06:38:34 Modius [n=Modius@70.244.123.142] has joined #scheme 06:40:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:40:40 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@70.244.123.142] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:45:55 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-105.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:18 -!- ken` is now known as ken 06:58:32 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:23 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:02:45 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.235] has joined #scheme 07:09:33 # 07:09:43 custom printing of objects in plt 07:10:05 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 07:15:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:17:21 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.235] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:17:41 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-160-251.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:22 -!- saturnine1 [n=saturnin@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:02 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 07:24:51 -!- eut [n=oof@cpe-98-151-210-28.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 07:28:53 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.194.45] has left #scheme 07:32:23 -!- jlongster [n=user@68.59.187.95] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:34:33 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 07:45:05 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:46 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:03:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 08:04:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:04:18 -!- raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ef111ced6e19f84e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:07:25 ASau [n=user@host210-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:12:28 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 08:14:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:40 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:24:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:26:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:27:00 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-239-229.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:32:03 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 08:38:12 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:44:54 BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.14.62] has joined #scheme 08:45:35 guys, what are the best UI DSL:s you saw in scheme? 08:45:46 for expressing basic stuff like buttons, labels, checkboxes, and their interaction? 08:49:45 -!- underspecified__ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-239.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:58:14 eww 08:58:20 maybe ncuses 08:58:23 ncurses 08:59:06 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:02:21 ?+ 09:02:34 i mean, in scheme 09:05:04 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:08:06 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:09:34 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:12:30 Is Lisp in Small Pieces a good book? 09:17:17 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:14 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-7.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:18:18 pbusser2: if you want to know all about the details of how different lisps work, i heard its reallyg ood 09:18:31 pbusser2: what's your current learning objective? 09:20:51 pbusser2: It's great. 09:21:12 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.14.62] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 09:21:19 LiSP + PAIP are my favorites. :> 09:22:27 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 09:25:33 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-193-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 09:26:20 sphex [n=nobody@74.56.138.185] has joined #scheme 09:31:06 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-7.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:34 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-7.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:35:38 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:41:37 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-7.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:47 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:56 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:51:05 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-84-110-171-172.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:42 -!- aspect [n=aspect@abstracted-spleen.org] has left #scheme 09:57:20 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:06:04 does anybody have an idea what is plt-completions.el trying to load with (load-library "utilities") and where to get it? 10:06:32 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Success] 10:10:40 brandelune [n=suzume@pl710.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:24:19 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-239-229.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:56 csmrfxx [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 10:25:01 http://wikis.sun.com/display/WideFinder/Results 10:32:56 pbusser2: yes, it is quite good 10:40:02 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl710.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 10:44:59 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 10:49:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:13:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 11:13:36 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:14:33 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C433EB.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:30:49 synthase [n=synthase@65.0.160.251] has joined #scheme 11:47:03 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:01:48 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-55.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:08:29 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:15:52 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-84-110-171-172.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 12:24:44 Sorry for the late reply. 12:25:35 BW^: I want to find out how Lisp environments are implemented. 12:25:58 Quadrescence: What is PAIP? 12:26:36 BW^: The on-line resources I have found so far haven't provided the overview I was looking for so far. They assume a certain prior knowledge which I don't have. 12:26:42 bbl 12:38:00 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:00 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 12:41:06 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 12:41:30 pbusser2: Get LiSP 12:42:00 It's excellent 12:49:44 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:48 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:53:33 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 12:56:22 forcer [n=forcer@e179198166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:57:07 *`Antonio`* hello everyone ! 12:57:57 hello Antonio 13:02:34 brandelune [n=suzume@pl710.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:06:53 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-78.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:09:46 pbusser2: Paradigms in Artificial Intelligence Programming 13:12:53 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:42 -!- synthase [n=synthase@65.0.160.251] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:15:01 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-122.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 13:15:52 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:27:01 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:28:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 13:29:22 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 13:32:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:28 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:35:51 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:25 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:45:36 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:42 dzhus [n=sphinx@95.24.91.157] has joined #scheme 13:45:55 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:04 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95.24.91.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:07 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:46:24 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-75-148.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:46:26 rdd [n=user@83.250.157.93] has joined #scheme 13:47:21 -!- `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 13:47:34 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 13:49:43 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:26 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:57:58 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-9-94.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 14:08:09 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:08:23 -!- `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 14:09:01 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl710.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:10:17 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-91-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:19 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:30 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #scheme 14:31:21 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:32:53 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:47:14 jn_ [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:50:28 im still trying to read my LiSP :( 14:53:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-9-94.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:13 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-69.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:59 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:17 DrScheme doesn't seem to support Scheme48. Know of any similar IDEs that do? 15:03:00 (By "support", I mean: Has a visual debugger, syntax highlighting, built-in REPL...) 15:04:28 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 15:05:06 You want something for Scheme48 specifically? 15:05:15 TimMc: All of PLT Scheme is just crappy like that -- it also doesn't support Guile, Chicken, scsh, SCM, MIT Scheme, Chez, and a bunch of other schemes. 15:05:53 leppie: Yeah. Either specifically, or happens to include it. 15:06:11 nope sorry 15:06:32 TimMc: There is no such thing as "include it". It's a separate implementation. 15:07:52 I suspect TimMc is thinking of Eclipse, which is a front-end that (I think) can be used with different programming language back-ends 15:08:21 but what plugin for eclispse has visual debugging? 15:08:27 scheme plugin 15:09:03 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-75-148.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:05 "Visual debugger" is a pretty loose term. 15:09:37 you mean source stepping and inspection of variables? 15:10:26 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has left #scheme 15:12:54 yep 15:13:03 eli: does DrScheme's not support setting breakpoints at procedure entry point? 15:15:08 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-122.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:13 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.49.17] has joined #scheme 15:15:45 leppie: It does, but that won't help with debugging Scheme48, unless you're limiting yourself to the subset where *choosing* Scheme48 or whatever doesn't matter. 15:16:16 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:02 no, I meant for mzscheme, not Scheme48, im just interested in what parts get 'selected' as the breakpoint location (i cant seem to get the red dot, except on expression level) 15:19:37 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:00 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.27.27] has joined #scheme 15:24:05 -!- pants2 [n=hkarau@69-196-168-82.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:25 I tried the DrScheme debugger a couple weeks ago, and for the first time was impressed -- before then I could never figure out what it did or how to use it. But this time it worked just as I'd expected, and was genuinely helpful (i.e., it made clear what my program was doing wrong) 15:29:58 debuggers are useful, especially if you not sure what you are doing :) 15:30:51 supposedly Linus eschews them, but my feeling is: I need all the help I can get 15:31:41 after 18 months on IronSCheme without a debugger for the Scheme, I have pretty much got used to not needing one ;p 15:31:55 it made me think more in Scheme 15:31:58 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 15:32:44 i could cheat though, and call a proc still implemented in C#, and break on that :) 15:36:59 tsk tsk 15:37:04 leppie: I don't know if it allows setting a breakpoint on a function or not, but that would be the same as setting it on the (first) body expression of the function. 15:37:15 The most useful debugging method, by far, is inserting print statements :-| 15:37:35 sad but true 15:39:18 eli: no, that would not be true, a macro could be inserting extra expressions in the body 15:39:40 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-69.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:45 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.103.81] has joined #scheme 15:41:06 -!- peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:12 the other day i was talking with someone about Vim autocompletion for scheme 15:42:29 and having all keywords of R5RS and such in Vim dictionary for tab completion 15:42:57 hopefully someone finds it usefull if he uses petite: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1436374 15:43:04 mngbd [n=user@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has joined #scheme 15:45:02 leppie: *that* kind of problem is unavoidable -- for example, I could define `foo' as a macro and then you're back to not being able to set a breakpoint, or the form that called `foo' might itself add some code that you will not be able to breakpoint on. 15:45:27 ok, i see 15:45:45 The only solution would be to let you set breakpoints on the expanded code or something along those lines. 15:46:08 why not expand everything before interpretation then be able to set breakpoint on it? 15:46:21 (at least optionally) 15:46:47 cel: How do you set a breakpoint on macro-expanded code? 15:47:55 (BTW, personally I'm with offby1...) 15:47:58 on an IDE? 15:48:31 I don't understand the question. 15:48:42 probably neither did i with yours 15:48:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 15:49:27 Say that `(foo)' expands to (f1 (f2 (f3))) -- how do you set a breakpoint on the call to `f2'? 15:50:02 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 15:50:29 i was thinking on a text editor that expands all the code (in the editor itself) before executing or lets you explore macros to see the expansion, then in the expanded code, be able to set breakpoints 15:50:54 but i'm a newbie, i don't really know if that's possible or even desirable 15:51:31 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 15:52:48 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:54:01 cel: I probably wouldn't want to see expanded code, at least not most of the time, just as, when I'm debugging C++, I don't want to see assembly code 15:54:11 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C433EB.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:55:36 cel: It's exactly offby1's point -- the expanded code can be very far from something that you'll know how to handle (try to fully expand a quick `match' expression in plt, for example), so it's similar to assembley code, 15:55:47 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:55:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 15:56:20 cel: And in addition, for a debugger that is implemented *in* Scheme (such as the PLT debugger), you won't be able to inject code between those `f1' and `f2'. 15:57:45 mmm, maybe you could set a breakpoint in a procedure name basis? 15:58:03 not really right but could probably be usefull 15:58:14 something along the lines of: (breakpoint-when-call f2) 15:58:26 cel: See was my earlier point to leppie: what if `f2' is a macro? 15:59:07 then you're probably screwed 15:59:37 Right. 16:01:37 -!- travisbrady [n=travisbr@c-69-181-2-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:03:28 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:03:58 LunohoD [n=alex@e180077064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:04:40 mrscheme [n=user@209.120.179.205] has joined #scheme 16:04:41 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:12 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:18:07 -!- ASau [n=user@host210-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off!"] 16:25:05 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 16:26:01 -!- ken [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:38:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:28 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:26 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:59 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.103.81] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:00 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:19 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:34 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:25 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:14:24 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foo"] 17:16:41 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:20:05 travisbrady [n=travisbr@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:33 HG` [n=wells@xdslek203.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:22:34 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:18 Deformative [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:34 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:27:06 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 17:28:14 npe [n=npe@91.179.125.247] has joined #scheme 17:33:23 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 17:44:06 -!- csmrfxx [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:50 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:17 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:57:53 jewel [n=jewel@41.145.64.64] has joined #scheme 17:58:44 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.211.175] has joined #scheme 17:59:22 benny99 [n=benny@p5486AE83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:47 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Success] 18:03:26 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:12:01 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-116.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:12:06 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:17 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:15:09 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486AE83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:03 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 18:31:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:31:23 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:38:41 ejs [n=eugen@125-123-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:43:26 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:49 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:46:11 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:08 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 18:56:11 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:49 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.211.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:49 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 19:14:13 -!- jn_ [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:46 anyone know a place to look for contract programming jobs? aka work from home kind of stuff? 19:17:10 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 19:18:11 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 19:19:51 mbishop: zbigniew or daemmerung might know; my company has contracts from time to time: i'll let you know 19:20:25 incubot: "weak central coherence" refers to the autistic prejudice for parts over wholes 19:20:28 And this can't be an `obs-route', since it's not within an `obs-single-addr', and that's the only other production (barring header fields as wholes) that contains a ":". 19:20:30 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:23:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 19:23:28 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:23:31 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslek203.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:01 Riastradh: if you were to add a named equality test like used in the foof's matcher test suite (it's called test:equal there) to trc-testing, how would you call it? 19:24:32 (usage is like (test:equal "any" (match 'any ...) 'ok)) 19:25:54 jao [n=jao@77.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:55 -!- jao [n=jao@77.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:56 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-FOUR-FIFTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:30:36 -!- cel [n=cel@105.Red-79-150-207.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 19:31:29 -!- npe [n=npe@91.179.125.247] has quit [] 19:32:00 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:46 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:33:15 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:50:24 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:50:52 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:56:37 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.27.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:01 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-107.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:01 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:59:45 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:05 rotty, sorry, I don't understand. What's a `named equality test', and how is it different from any other test that uses EQUAL? ? 20:03:16 Riastradh: it's the same, but the test itself is named, so that you don't get just a number, but the test name in the output 20:04:06 I looked at , and the line that I think you're referring to would be translated into trc-testing as: (define-test loop-tests any () (test-equal 'ok (match 'any (_ 'ok)))) 20:04:15 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:04:15 Um, MATCH-TESTS, not LOOP-TESTS> 20:04:16 . 20:04:29 And DEFINE-TEST-CASE, not DEFINE-TEST. 20:04:43 (define-test-case match-tests any () (test-equal 'ok (match 'any (_ 'ok)))) 20:04:44 yep, I thought about that, but it's definitly more verbose 20:05:21 Yes. That's the cost of the test suite's being declarative and each test's being M-x run-testable. 20:06:33 but one could go ahead and add names to all the test-failure:* parameters, and the macros that invoke them, or would that be a bad idea? 20:06:58 That would give a name to the failure of a test, not to the test itself. 20:07:24 yeah, it would indicate which sub-test failed 20:08:10 (the names would be optional, of course) 20:09:05 Why don't you use a test suite if you want to group tests together? 20:11:24 jao [n=user@185.Red-83-39-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:32 basically, because it adds a lot of "noise" 20:12:38 (making the test file quite a bit longer) 20:13:15 I think that's also why match-test.scm introduces test:equal 20:14:29 If you really want, you can define a macro (TEST:EQUAL ) that expands to (DEFINE-TEST-CASE () (TEST-EQUAL )). 20:18:27 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-122.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:38 -!- jao [n=user@185.Red-83-39-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:42 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:34 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:20:51 Riastradh: I've been doing some minor considering about how to solve the little composable parsers issue. 20:21:08 It's probably best to use LET-SYNTAX for such a local TEST:EQUAL, too. 20:21:37 Riastradh: I don't know enough about the internals of parser-combinators to know whether the following is feasible: could you have a parser:compose that tooks a series of parses? 20:21:56 Personally I find clusters of tests like in match-test.scm somewhat harder to read anyway. 20:22:04 arcfide, what would it do? 20:22:08 The first parser could return whatever it wanted, but the others would be required to return valid streams that could be fed back into the parser with something like STREAM-APPEND. 20:22:08 me ponders that 20:23:36 So, given parser-{first,second,third}, you might have a (PARSER:COMPOSE PARSER-FIRST PARSER-SECOND PARSER-THIRD), and it would parse with PARSER-THIRD, and the results of that parsing would be prepended to the stream, to be parsed by PARSER-SECOND, and so forth. 20:24:32 Let's just take two parsers for simplicity. 20:24:57 Would PARSER-SECOND have to run to completion and yield the whole stream before PARSER-FIRST could begin? 20:25:14 So, in the example of parsing fields in rfc822, you might have (PARSER:COMPOSE RFC822-PARSER:STRUCTURED-FIELD RFC822-PARSER:UNFOLD). 20:25:52 Riastradh: each parser would have to return and yield something that could be prepended to the stream. 20:26:25 So, for example, RFC822-PARSER:UNFOLD would return a string that is the unfolded field body. 20:26:37 This would get prepended onto the string that is being parsed. 20:27:00 And then RFC822-PARSER:FIELD-BLAH could parse that same string without having to worry about unfolding the field. 20:27:28 I don't know the ramifications of implementing such a parser, though. 20:28:33 What do you mean by `prepended'? 20:28:53 It sounds as though you are replacing a prefix of tokens by a single token, in which case you might as well just write 20:29:05 (*parser (x rfc822-parser:structured-field) (parser:return (rfc822-parser:unfold x))) 20:29:11 So, if you are parsing a stream, the first parser to run on the stream would consume some of the tokens to some point, the result of that parser ought to be a stream of tokens that can be processed before the processing of the rest of the stream takes place. 20:29:38 Riastradh: The above wouldn't work because you want UNFOLD to run first. 20:30:55 in the case I'm thinking of, for each field, the body has to be unfolded before it can be parsed by the structured field parsers, the grammar in the RFC separates out the unfolding from the rest, and it would be nice if I didn't have to combine them together. So, if I could write a parser that would unfold the body first, giving me something that could then be parsed by the structured field parsers, all without having to use P 20:31:02 Sorry, I mixed the two names up. 20:31:10 (You were just cut off at `all without having to use P'.) 20:31:24 without having to use PARSE-STRING again, that would be nice. 20:32:04 So, I could make a whole different parser, that parsed the string or stream returned by the unfolding parser, but then, as you mentioned previously, I have to do special things to handle the error reporting and positioning. 20:32:23 If it were prepended or treated as the same part of the string, maybe this could be handled behind the scenes? 20:32:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@125-123-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:34 s/string/stream/ 20:32:52 It's just a thought, at the moment, I really don't know if it would work or not, but that's kind of what I would like to be able to do. 20:37:55 ejs [n=eugen@125-123-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:45 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.105.166] has joined #scheme 20:44:57 The reason that that's tricky is that PARSE-STRING runs the parsing system with a particular notion of position in the input stream, but your tokens have a different notion of position. 20:46:41 Right. 20:47:59 Well, at the moment it doesn't hurt too much to tokenize the field-bodies after they have been parsed through once. 20:48:16 So it isn't a really big deal in practice. 20:51:00 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:24 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:51:41 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:51:41 -!- tabe [n=tabe@adel.fixedpoint.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:51:41 -!- laz0r [n=lazor@affenbande.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:51:41 -!- certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:51:59 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 20:51:59 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 20:51:59 tabe [n=tabe@adel.fixedpoint.jp] has joined #scheme 20:51:59 laz0r [n=lazor@affenbande.org] has joined #scheme 20:57:48 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:00 -!- mrscheme [n=user@209.120.179.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:02 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:00 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:25 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:07:36 brandelune [n=suzume@pl710.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:07:52 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:08:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:12:00 -!- travisbrady [n=travisbr@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:01 -!- TimMc [n=timmc@aurail.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 21:12:50 travisbrady [n=travisbr@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:12 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:18:52 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 21:21:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:52 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:21:56 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Success] 21:22:26 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:24:13 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["peace out, liberty cabbage"] 21:25:41 -!- qq[mrw] [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has left #scheme 21:27:51 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 21:29:18 incubot: she had a higgs bosom: it gave rise to my mass 21:29:22 Abstraction. The content is different from the layout. Care about one thing at a time. Caring about the layout right away will give rise to bad layout. 21:31:17 if I cross two product two vectors #(1, 2, 3) and #(a, b, c) does it make more sene to result in (1, a) (1, b) (1,c) (2, a) (2, b) (2, c) (3, a) (3, b) (3, c) ... or (1, a) (2, a) (3, a) (1, b) (2, b) (3, b) (1, c) (2, c) (3, c) 21:31:34 oh; and on an unrelated note, now that mit's moving over to python, where can I find a gf that's good @ scheme? 21:31:41 peddie [n=matthew@DARWINAWARD.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:32:29 lowlycoder: either order is intuitive, unless you have additional criteria 21:33:21 actually, after writing it out, the first seems a bit "more" intuitive to me somehow 21:33:22 Does anyone have the name of the article that details PLT's semantics for modules and phasing, &c? 21:33:26 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:33:48 lowlycoder: to find a gf good at scheme: find a naive girl, then shape her into a schemer like pygmalion and his sculpture 21:34:04 it's no fun having pre-made mistresses that are already good at shit 21:34:20 lowlycoder: In general, if you say A x B, you're talking about unordered sets, and so it doesn't matter. If you have something else in mind, then maybe it does. Often, I find that the speed of getting the set is more important. 21:35:43 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:35:50 lowlycoder: that's called cartesian product, cross product is something completely different 21:36:36 does 'do' have special identing rules? (looking at page 12 of r5rs) 21:36:57 lowlycoder: there are no indenting rules; it's dictated by your editor 21:37:10 so this is like do it yourself, rather than pre-ordering machines at dell? 21:37:45 lowlycoder: exactly; also see Riastradh's style guide: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 21:40:00 emacs will most likely indent correctly 21:40:18 i'm using vim 21:41:05 but you shouldn't kick ban me because i'm so awesome that I wrote my own scripts so I can hit c-l in vim, and it'll remotely tell my repl to reload my code 21:42:18 lowlycoder: Some of us use vi-type editors, too, you know. :-) 21:42:45 I use vim and reload my code in another xterm. 21:42:56 you heretics! 21:43:17 kidding I use drscheme 21:43:27 I use nvi without syntax highlighting; I copy and paste and use noweb and Makefiles! 21:43:35 but nothing wrong with vim, aside from that it can't parse many # constructs. 21:43:38 *arcfide* laughes evilly. 21:43:59 i code on windows using MS Word 21:44:15 *arcfide* points to the /leave sign. 21:44:23 lowlycoder: Out! Out! You cretin! 21:44:50 lowlycoder: I recommend a "/nick lowestcoder". 21:45:10 heh 21:46:10 https://synx.us.to/~synx/shot.jpg 21:46:10 but then i'd lose my cloak ... and get lynched :-D 21:46:33 See the red stuff vim can't figure out how to hilight right. 21:46:38 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 21:47:28 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:37 white on bright red is the color for "you typed this wrong. bad syntax. bad bad syntax!" 21:48:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:48:31 synx: That would drive me insane very quickly. 21:49:18 wy [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has joined #scheme 21:49:33 -!- wy [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:58 I only use vim for really quick changes. Don't know if it has a better hilighting setup though. I doubt it. 21:50:16 this isn't meant to rant ... i dunno why, but the more I code, the more I"m starting to feel that the fundamental data structure in scheme should be a vector, not a cons/list 21:50:18 synx: I used it a while ago and it did, I can't remember if I changed them manually or not. 21:50:35 Highlighting and other syntax analysis is best done using the language you're highlighting itself. Thus drscheme. 21:50:43 lowlycoder: why do you say that? 21:50:55 -!- travisbrady [n=travisbr@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:00 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:05 i like O(1) random access 21:51:19 cons cells, at best, give me O(log n) 21:51:25 arcfide: vector->list is an expensive operation, so you can't write an efficient vector-apply procedure. 21:51:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:51:31 travisbrady [n=travisbr@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:34 and I feel that level of indirection from the hardware is unaceptable 21:51:38 lowlycoder: perhaps you'd like PLOT ;-) 21:51:43 what's PLOT? 21:51:44 You take vector->list, and then you have to traverse the list again to build the argument list. It's just messy. 21:51:50 wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 21:52:03 *synx* googles plot 21:52:05 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3253 21:52:30 lowlycoder: I find that I use lists much more often than vectors, but vectors do exist for good reason. 21:53:16 augh PLOT delineates with whitespace 21:53:40 and it doesn't use lists for AST, IIRC 21:56:10 TimMc [n=timmc@aurail.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:56:18 I'm not sure it's a good idea to use allow for procedures that have argument vectors, not argument lists, but I would like a vector-apply that only built the argument list once. 21:58:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@125-123-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:03:44 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 22:03:59 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:20 incubot: SICP (as it is often referred to) has its own agenda: convincing the reader that the most important thing computers can do is interpreting computer programs. This agenda has arguably caused the proliferation of Scheme implementations and indoctrinated many young minds with certain ideas about how to design and implement programming languages. 22:04:21 Error: unbound variable: SICP 22:04:37 :-( 22:04:52 http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/05/so-you-want-to-learn-python.html 22:05:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:03 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 22:07:05 "Yakov said...'ICP (as it is often referred to) has its own agenda: convincing the reader that the most important thing computers can do is interpreting computer programs.' Um... what else do computers do?" :) 22:07:14 s/ICP/SICP/ 22:08:26 sometimes computers fly (outtadawindow) 22:08:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:22 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 22:14:31 -!- mngbd [n=user@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:35 xwl [n=user@114.246.91.147] has joined #scheme 22:27:29 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #scheme 22:28:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:46 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:31:12 Riastradh: how would you "translate" a testeez' TEST-DEFINE clause into trc-testing? (sample on http://www.neilvandyke.org/testeez/) 22:32:38 (the idea is that the testcase fails when the expression results in an error) 22:33:38 using (LET ((BAR (THING-THAT-MIGHT-FAIL))) STUFF-USING-BAR) inside a DEFINE-TEST-CASE, I suppose? 22:37:36 mejja: it thinks you're trying to evaluate something; try: 22:38:10 incubot: SICP [as it is often referred to] has its own agenda: convincing the reader that the most important thing computers can do is interpreting computer programs. 22:38:14 Say I want to start the same command on 5 different computers... 22:39:51 Still haven't figured out how to search through SXML expressions. 22:40:25 Can't find any non-crappy implementation of SXPATH though, or XPATH for that matter. 22:41:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:42:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.145.64.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:05 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:43:05 synx: I take it you don't like Oleg's SXPATH implementation? 22:43:19 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 22:46:37 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:46:52 Well, it doesn't have very good plt integration. Hasn't been updated since 2004, and the plt package hasn't been put together since 2006, nor does there seem to be a system in place for doing so. 22:47:12 Plus he uses a lot of custom macros and changes the language around in ways that must be more convenient for him, but I'm having a hard time reading it. 22:47:18 synx: What does it being released in 2004 have anything to do with it? 22:47:34 plt has updated since then. 22:47:43 synx: Are you saying that it doesn't work on PLT? 22:48:00 N...yes. 22:48:10 synx: That's, unfortunate. 22:48:12 I'm sure it could work on PLT, but it looks like it'd be a bit of a fight. 22:48:31 synx: Well, Oleg isn't known for the most readable code. :-) 22:48:47 Don't know him personally... 22:49:07 synx: You have, nonetheless, tried to read his code. 22:49:32 Yes. 22:49:56 Keep in mind I'm not good at reading scheme code in general. 22:51:08 Hrm, in my Chez Scheme port of SXPath, the only thing I needed was to not import ERROR or FILTER from the regular Scheme module, and make sure that I used the right oleg-env stuff. 22:52:09 It's got supporting code for Chez already in there. Just not PLT. 22:52:37 (define-macro (and-let* claws . body) ...) seems to be a implementation specific thing I'd have to figure out for instance. 22:53:04 synx, what is an `efficient VECTOR-APPLY procedure'? Is it supposed to run in asymptotically better time than APPLY? (What is the running time of APPLY?) 22:53:16 synx: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-2/ 22:53:48 rotty, if an error is signalled during a test case in trc-testing, the test will fail. 22:54:58 synx: There isn't any macro definition in sxpath.scm that I can see. 22:55:03 Riastradh: I just wanted to combine the vector->list and then the list copy into one operation. It's creating a list, then copying the list it created. 22:55:34 arcfide: It's in lib/myenv-chez.scm 22:56:03 synx: AND-LET* is not used in sxpath.scm. 22:56:05 mejja: ...ok... well maybe that won't be so hard then. 22:56:37 So why is it included in the tarball... 22:57:38 myenv-chez.scm is a "standard prelude" that Oleg uses in all of his code. He assumes it to exist, so it contains common procedures that he uses over and over again, but he doesn't necessarily use them in all code. sxpath.scm probably depends on another procedure from the env. 22:57:49 And what tarball? I'm just going straight from Oleg's site. 22:57:57 Oh okay... 22:58:16 It looks like he has an ASSERT procedure that he uses. 22:58:18 Maybe a macro. 22:58:19 I was looking at http://ssax.sourceforge.net/ 22:58:27 . 22:59:24 Looks like COUT is another one. 23:00:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:06 PRETTY-PRINT, and I can't seem to see any other. 23:00:32 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foobar"] 23:01:10 synx: If you want, I have my Chez Libs package which contains a Chez prelude for Oleg's code that is up to date with Chez Scheme 7.4. 23:01:25 synx: But, there isn't any DEFINE-MACRO in the standard prelude either for Chez, maybe for other languages. 23:01:32 s/languages/implementations/ 23:02:17 I don't see anything at which PLT could balk at. 23:03:13 Yeah I got it working. 23:03:45 Sort of. 23:03:46 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/SXPath.ss 23:04:04 Now that I realize he only uses a few weird macros, they're pretty easy to just define one by one. 23:04:20 Weird Macros? 23:04:27 Unfortunately the SXPath.scm code runs several tests every time it loads. 23:04:32 Non-standard macros, like cout 23:05:09 You probably want to take the ASSERT from his prelude from one of the SYNTAX-RULES based environments. 23:05:19 But, yeah. 23:05:32 procedures, whatever 23:06:35 oh? it's weirder than I thought? 23:06:49 ikaros_ [n=ikaros@f051196031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:07:10 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 23:07:58 yeah it's pretty ugly... 23:08:37 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.105.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:12 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 23:15:02 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-17-177.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 23:15:45 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 23:15:57 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has joined #scheme 23:17:10 incubot: It also doesn't make you pancakes or give you blowjobs. What's your point? 23:17:13 my god, is the professor getting blowjobs from gates personally? 23:17:49 incubot: yeap, industry gets what it pays for. 23:17:52 yeap 23:17:59 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:59 incubot: yeap 23:18:02 yeap 23:18:12 incubot: yeap 23:18:15 yeap, you were right; it's sicp; thanks 23:18:25 *sladegen* lols 23:22:47 what? 23:22:50 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051135010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:13 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-148.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:27:10 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [] 23:28:19 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:33 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:47 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 23:34:52 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:57 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:40:25 geckosenator: it's a quote from reddit/sicp/guido/python thread. i'm suspecting klutometis or someone else talking from behind incubot: it's too eerie sometimes. 23:41:53 *`Antonio`* good night ! 23:42:09 -!- `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has quit ["list->string woho !"] 23:42:28 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:57 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 23:48:05 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:52:49 eli: Subversion PLT breaks DESTDIR rules: 23:52:57 eli: it installs files into ${HOME} 23:54:15 sladegen: nonsense; it would take too much energy to be that aleatoric/uncanny 23:55:07 klutometis: i know, but offby1 speaking as rudybot is not nonsense... 23:57:14 yeah; but that's part of offby1's pyrotechnics ;) 23:57:43 offby1: if you were here, i'd nominate you the wizard of oz