00:01:08 klutometis: or thy 00:02:40 klutometis: I can't think of a way to make APPEND easily O(1), but if tails to lists were somehow maintained, it could be, I think. Still, I don't know that such a thing would work really well. 00:03:26 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 00:03:37 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:04:26 arcfide: funny thing is, i always had a feeling it was an expensive procedure; but i now know it to be inexorably so, since i've had to implement it 00:04:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.158.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:04 pumpkin: isn't thy an adjective, not a pronoun? 00:05:44 klutometis: "thine" and "thy" have the same meaning, but different use cases, I think. 00:06:36 isn't the main difference between them the first letter of the word the follows them? 00:06:40 arcfide: thine is a pronoun and require a preposition (viz. "of"); but thy is an adjective 00:07:04 but true, they're semantically indistinguishable 00:07:26 if only syntactically distinct 00:07:47 My dictionary has it as a pronomial adjective, I see. 00:07:57 interisting 00:08:08 (heh; weird typo) 00:08:13 That is, it can be used in, "This is thine own thing." 00:08:23 oh, really? hmm 00:08:28 But the dictionary states that more commonly "thy" is used in all cases there. 00:08:48 It also states that "thine" is commonly used when a verb separates the things to which it is referring, as in, "This is thine." 00:09:14 similar distinction as my/mine ? 00:09:20 Or, "of thine ...," and so forth. 00:09:26 your and yours, I would think. 00:10:02 arcfide: you're right; it does double duty as pronoun and adjective. but, in any case, "of thou" is wrong; right? 00:10:56 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:51 klutometis: yes, if you want that, it should be, "of thee." 00:12:47 Of course, even so, my dictionary, which is the 1828 edition, states that these are used only in the solemn style, and that colloquial usages always use your and yours. :-) 00:13:29 arcfide: OED has both "of thee" and "of thine"; i'm guessing the latter is more archaic 00:13:45 since thee began to replace accusative, dative, genitive at some point 00:14:35 klutometis: They mean different things. 00:14:52 "Of thee" means, "of you," and, "of thine," means, "of yours." 00:14:58 arcfide: really? can you distinguish that subtely? 00:15:39 "of thine: that is (or are) thine; belonging to thee: see OF prep. 44." 00:15:52 what's the semantic distinction? 00:16:23 Thee is purly a second person singular pronoun used in the accusative type situations. Thine is a possessive pronoun meaning that which belongs to you. 00:16:30 s/purly/purely 00:16:43 has thee eaten thine dictinary? 00:17:03 Thine never refers to you as a person, but rather to something that you possess, presumably. 00:17:05 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 00:17:24 acarrico1 [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-42-148.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:35 sladegen: There, you is a subject, and must be treated as such, so it would be "Hast thou eaten thy dictionary?" 00:18:52 i'm not native speaker so i'm free to make up my own rules ;) and clams got legs. 00:19:03 klutometis: The only case where thine is used as a second person pronoun in the more direct sense is when it is being used instead of thy to represent a possessive second person, used before a noun which has a vowel sound as the first sound in its pronunciation. 00:22:05 arcfide: before 1500, though, when english had a true genitive; it is indeed second person singular: "c1500 Lancelot 115 Al magre thine a seruand schal yow bee." 00:22:19 whatever the fuck that means 00:22:40 "all something thin a servant shall you be"? 00:22:44 thine* 00:24:07 klutometis: I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I know that the above treatment of thine was in common and entrenched usage by 1611. 00:25:06 "in spite of thee, you shall be a servant" 00:28:12 "maugre " was apparently some old phrase that got replaced by "in spite of" 00:29:46 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:30:09 Not sure about Old English. I'd be surprised though. 00:35:20 Riastradh: Are you available for some minor usage questions regarding parser-combinators? 00:38:43 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 00:44:42 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:48:07 -!- wingo_ [n=wingo@76.Red-79-151-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:49:09 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:39 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 00:49:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:49:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:51:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:56 -!- acarrico1 is now known as acarrico 00:56:10 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:31 I don't know about spite, but I do know that thou,thee,thy,thine relate to each other just like I,me,my,mine 01:00:03 So if you see a sign that says "Mine Field" that means you don't own the field so stay off. 01:01:14 synx: also, "mine camp" is on the list of banned books 01:07:17 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:06 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:12:05 mejja [n=user@c-a3b3e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:13:11 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:16:29 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:16:32 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 01:18:16 -!- pumpkin is now known as Gruppetto 01:20:45 -!- Gruppetto is now known as pumpkin 01:21:36 synx: The real fun is if you see a "Mine Field" side from the wrong side. 01:21:41 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:43 *eli* had the pleasure once 01:22:13 :o 01:22:14 haha I've only seen "No Trespassing" signs from the wrong side before 01:22:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:01 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 01:27:17 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:03 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-146-242-184.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:36 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-160-169.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:45 niladic, unary, dyadic, ... 01:35:50 how far can you take this sequence? 01:37:48 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:56 triadic? 01:38:17 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-29-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:38:44 quadratic? 01:38:54 quadradic? :P 01:38:58 heh 01:40:21 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 01:40:34 tetradic maybe? 01:41:19 pumpkin: tetradic has at least one witness: http://www.learnglish.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/english/3569/What-s-the-word-for-0-nary 01:41:21 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/r55blv 01:41:49 omg monadic :P 01:43:16 yeah, exactly 01:43:53 how about: pentadic, hexadic, heptadic, octadic, enneadic, hendecadic, dodecadic, etc. 01:44:01 heard it here first ;) 01:44:30 enneadic could just be ennadic couldn't it? 01:44:49 and you forgot 10 01:45:05 this guy has them, actually: http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/p-adic.htm 01:45:22 pumpkin: it's some bizarre strong e that seems to survive compounds 01:45:29 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 01:45:30 interesting 01:45:39 enneahedron, etc. 01:46:34 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:31 i guess the p-adics are going off some kind of polygon analogy: http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/culture.htm#polygons 01:53:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.208.138] has quit [] 02:04:20 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:00 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:07:41 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:18:19 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.192.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:46:37 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:46 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:45 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176204009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:57:52 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-29-117.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 02:59:07 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:41 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 03:01:32 Ooh, I missed the troll. 03:03:33 he wasn't a particularly good one, don't worry :) 03:04:56 wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-76-19-107-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:06 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176221101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:51 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:29:12 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:55 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:09 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:18 raikov [i=6e0140d8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3f388e694441e1e3] has joined #scheme 03:35:18 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 03:38:23 ewww... 03:38:25 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Implementation-_0028Linux-x86_0029.html#Implementation-_0028Linux-x86_0029 03:38:27 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/oeyg3a 03:39:30 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [] 03:41:51 what is a futex? 03:42:11 futex - Fast Userspace Locking system call 03:43:12 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:43:57 "The Linux kernel provides futexes ('Fast Userspace muTexes') as a building block for fast userspace locking and semaphores. Futexes are very basic and lend themselves well for building higher level locking abstractions such as POSIX mutexes." -- man 7 futex 03:45:20 It seems to me you should be able create portable user-space mutexes on x86 with CMPXCHG. 03:47:02 The futex page says it only resorts to kernel code when "arbitration" is needed. What does that mean? 03:49:05 "Arbitration can either mean putting the calling process to sleep or, conversely, waking a waiting process" 03:49:06 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 03:57:56 (the "ewww", btw was directed to everything on that page, not just futexes) 04:03:43 foof: speak of the devil.. http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/5/18/264 04:06:19 And does that mean pthread_mutex_lock *always* makes a system call? 04:07:41 ooh, Linus angry 04:08:57 Fare: ping 04:10:41 arcfide, no, but you can send them by email. 04:14:18 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:30:39 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:05 smtlaissezfaire [n=user@user-387hd0n.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 04:39:20 On OS X pthread_mutex_lock is directly a system call. But current Linux has no thread-specific system calls. 04:39:36 Linux threads are created with the clone system call. 04:44:24 I can't find anything which explains how mutexes are implemented though :/ 04:44:45 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:45 hiyuh_work [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:45:15 -!- hiyuh_work [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:23 Did you look at the libpthread code? 04:45:26 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:47:26 That was a last resort. 04:47:29 *foof* downloads 04:47:45 GNU pth I think it's called nowadays. 04:47:58 No wait that's wrong. 04:48:00 No pth is the portable user-space threads. 04:48:55 pants1 [n=hkarau@75-119-233-164.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:54:45 On NetBSD it is a (library call that begins with a) CAS, followed by a system call if the mutex is locked, but I guess that would be too sensible for anyone else to do it. 04:55:17 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-76-19-107-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:56:02 foof: http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/nptl/pthread_mutex_lock.c?rev=1.8.2.13&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc 04:56:04 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/q5rdxt 04:56:16 synx: I'm already reading that file :) 04:56:43 yay 04:56:50 wtf is lowlevellock.h it's got no source file 04:57:01 Oh it's all static. 04:58:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:00:30 OK, so Linux pthreads also only makes a system call if the lock fails. 05:01:15 So why does the futex library exist? And why is SBCL using it, thus making it non-portable? 05:03:36 -!- mejja [n=user@c-a3b3e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:31 ll_mutex_lock calls lll_futex_wait in lowlevellock.h that seems to be what pthread_mutex_lock.c is mostly deferring to. 05:05:51 -!- pants2 [n=hkarau@69-165-128-99.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:34 So maybe pthread mutexes use futexes? Whatever the heck a "futex" is. 05:07:52 Yes, I think now there may some confusion in the SBCL docs. Perhaps they just use straight pthreads, and want to emphasize that mutexes are efficiently implemented using "futexes," even though one would expect that on any platform? 05:09:00 ##linux is a worthless channel... 05:11:21 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:11:48 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:16:31 It's a great channel if you don't know what the $ means. 05:33:52 abbe [i=mew@notebook.of.abbe.who.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 05:41:12 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:25 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:08 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.122.173] has joined #scheme 05:56:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:09:18 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:12 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.122.173] has quit [] 06:17:44 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 06:18:12 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:19:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:21:57 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:02 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 06:35:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-130.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:46:49 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:51 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:54:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:02 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:03:47 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:04:29 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:16:58 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:07 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:12 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 07:30:05 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 07:30:53 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 07:32:33 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:38:27 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 07:41:46 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434FB.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 07:48:38 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 07:52:09 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-80-216-154.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:53:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:54:53 > (string-length (make-string (expt 2 23))) 07:54:53 Larceny Panic: Can't allocate an object of size 33554440 bytes: max is 16777215 bytes. 07:55:26 And I was pissed off at Chicken's limit, which is larger :/ 07:57:27 Larceny uses UCS-4? 07:58:14 Ah, yeah, that must be it. 07:58:51 *eli* notes that he used a "?", not a "."... 07:59:19 Gambit has the same limit. 07:59:41 Yes, I noticed the "?", and I already knew Larceny did indeed use UCS-4. 08:00:02 I didn't... 08:00:24 I'm assuming PLT uses UCS-4? 08:00:32 Yes. 08:01:28 As does Ikarus, which accounts for the massive swapping when I allocate a 100 million character string, which is in fact 400MB behind the scenes. 08:01:49 interesting 08:01:58 -!- abbe [i=mew@notebook.of.abbe.who.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:59 ...and that expression works for me in plt up to 2^29. 08:02:12 rudybot_: (string-length (make-string (expt 2 30))) 08:02:12 eli: eh? Try "rudybot_: help". 08:02:12 foof: gambit doesn't have that limit on amd64 08:02:16 rudybot_: eval (string-length (make-string (expt 2 30))) 08:02:16 eli: error: make-string: out of memory making string of length 1073741824 08:02:26 rudybot_: eval (string-length (make-string (expt 2 23))) 08:02:26 eli: error: out of memory 08:02:34 rudybot_: eval (string-length (make-string (expt 2 22))) 08:02:35 eli: ; Value: 4194304 08:02:41 Heh. 08:03:22 eli: mzscheme also works fine with that on amd64 08:03:36 Guile works up to 2^31. 08:03:58 ... of course Guile is ASCII :) 08:04:15 IronScheme explodes at 2^30 :| 08:04:37 .NET I would take a guess is UTF-16? 08:04:56 they use 16bit codepoints with surrogates 08:05:06 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:05:06 Yes, that's what UTF-16 means :) 08:05:12 hkBst: I know -- rudybot_ is protected. 08:05:33 hkBst: There are actually two different checks, which is the reason for the two different error messages. 08:05:43 i think i am hitting a process limit 08:06:34 make-string returns a mutable string always, right? 08:07:19 rudybot_: eval (bytes-length (make-bytes (expt 2 31))) 08:07:20 eli: error: make-bytes: out of memory making byte string of length 2147483648 08:07:26 rudybot_: eval (bytes-length (make-bytes (expt 2 32))) 08:07:26 eli: error: make-bytes: out of memory making byte string of length 4294967296 08:07:42 rudybot_: eval (bytes-length (make-bytes (expt 2 16))) 08:07:42 eli: ; Value: 65536 08:07:51 Veird. 08:10:17 Chicken's limit is just silly though. The strings are 8-bit ASCII (often treated as UTF-8), so the only reason for the limit is arbitrarily using 2 bytes for the string length instead of a fixnum. 08:11:37 *eli* slowly pushes a refund form towards foof 08:12:08 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-165-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:14:08 @^29 works here, but boy it takes a while to execute :p 08:15:58 and some very slow code to go along with it, even in the default 'non-fill' case ::( 08:16:50 `non-fill' should usually be ignored. 08:17:03 yeah i know 08:17:29 But that's the OSs responsibility. 08:19:04 i dont have that facility on the 'mutable string' class, so I am thinking just to build a native string first, and convert it. 08:24:48 leppie: But how big can you get with (make-string (expt 2 n) #\u10400) ? ; DESERET CAPITAL LETTER LONG I 08:24:49 ok MUCH MUCH faster :p but max is only 2^28 due to needed copy 08:25:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 08:25:48 i dont support surrogate characters yet, need to rewrite a fair chunk for that 08:26:07 Haha, Emacs has bugs with surrogate codepoints :) 08:26:16 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0575F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:26:31 Well, not surrogate, per se, since Emacs doesn't use UTF-16. 08:26:33 i have made some tests, but the performance is terrible 08:26:33 npe [i=npe@94-224-249-160.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 08:26:59 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 08:27:21 But Emacs only has 3 bytes per character, and gets confused however it's handling the non BMP-plane Unicode codepoints. 08:27:26 but it could be as I was not using a pure integer and rather bytes and then using 3 for each code point 08:28:07 ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:29:15 Although, it's 3 full bytes, it should be able to handle the full Unicode range ust fine, with 3 bits for bucky bits. 08:29:37 i used those to indicate mutable string :) 08:30:05 probably is with performance 08:30:44 s/probably/problem/ 08:31:03 You use 3 bits out of every character? So you can have mutable and immutable ranges within the same string? o_O 08:31:19 -!- smtlaissezfaire [n=user@user-387hd0n.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:31:27 no, only the first char of the string 08:31:29 :) 08:31:47 but that's not a bad idea, if we can find a use for it 08:33:58 otoh you can make it really compact, but then you lose constant time lookup on string-ref 08:34:40 actually, I could use surrogate pairs as is, if I am willing to lose constant time lookup on string-ref 08:34:42 Which you don't need. 08:34:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:25 you do not need constant time lookup on string-ref? (i know its not required) 08:35:52 i think that would be very desirable 08:36:14 Sorry, you don't need constant time lookup if you have string cursors. 08:36:56 yes string-for-each still runs in O(n) time 08:36:59 You can specify a string cursor API, and provide implementations for all major Schemes for which it give O(1) string-ref. 08:37:29 ok, now i dont follow 08:38:11 The cursors are opaque, so they could just be offsets into a utf-8 string, or nodes of a rope, or whatever. 08:38:56 For UCS-4 strings, (string-cursor-ref str cur) => (string-ref str cur). 08:39:11 (string-cursor-next str cur) => (fx+ cur 1) 08:40:11 Which if inlined would actually make the portable string code faster than current idiomatic code. 08:40:18 but to get the offsets that would still require going thruough a string, or do you create the offsets lazily? 08:40:33 Ah, but where did the offset come from in the first place? 08:41:00 it makes sense for sequential access, but not for random access 08:41:03 Library functions like string-search and regexp matches could just return the offset to begin with, without ever determining the character index. 08:42:23 You don't need random access. The only useful semi-random access algorithm is boyer-moore, and you're always going to want string-search to be specially optimized to the given implementation. A portable string-search is useless. 08:43:10 ok, thanks for the tips/ideas, let me see what I can pull out of the bag 08:45:10 In general, search, parsing and regex algorithms can be better optimized for utf-8, partly because there are fewer actual bytes to process, and partly because you can easily use 256-entry byte-lookup tables, whereas lookups for UCS-4 codepoints typically need trees or hash-tables. 08:45:51 Which is not to say that UTF-8 doesn't have tradeoffs. But you _don't_ need O(1) string-ref. 08:48:40 xwl [n=user@114.245.137.144] has joined #scheme 09:01:52 so much work for such a tiny little thing... grrrr 09:03:08 the problem is that I am utilizing the native I/O too (still something I need to rewrite too) 09:03:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:37 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:07:18 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 09:10:16 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 09:12:52 arcfide: "[Chez] comes with a graphical environment if you are so inclined, but I don't use it. [...] I don't really go for DrScheme because I think its clunky and it tends to make my life difficult." -- is that flamebait or what? 09:13:11 it sounds like an opinion 09:13:20 just not not necessarily a correct one 09:13:27 [Most flamebaits are.] 09:13:55 eli: he's a Chez fan, what do you expect? 09:14:25 he really likes Chez, and doesn't like a lot of other Schemes 09:15:04 Adamant_: I know -- but saying something like "Chez is great, but I don't like its GUI; PLT Scheme's GUI is clunky so I don't like it (implication: PLT)" is ... ugh. 09:15:25 I think he just doesn't like GUIs 09:15:36 his position is perfectly consistent then 09:16:02 he use Chez on the command line and does like DrScheme because it's very GUIified 09:16:43 Right, but the implication is still there. (The part where PLT is not mentioned, only its GUI is.) 09:16:57 ok. 09:17:05 (DrScheme is obviously GUIfied -- it *is* a GUI.) 09:17:39 I thought DrScheme was Mz + other stuff + GUI 09:17:42 my mistake 09:18:29 No, DrScheme is the GUI; MzScheme is the language used underneath it. 09:18:43 (Both for user code and to implement most of it.) 09:19:35 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-233-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:20:30 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 09:23:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-238.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 09:25:28 ken-p`` [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 09:37:25 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 09:39:52 johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 09:41:41 -!- johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:39 -!- ken-p` [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:50 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:07:34 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 10:08:23 *`Antonio`* good morning ! 10:09:28 The Haskell operator is back! 10:09:44 :) 10:09:58 an inline data constructor! 10:11:51 johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 10:18:07 no, that's a shell command 10:18:58 -!- johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 10:19:53 -!- Mr-Cat is now known as `Mr-Cat` 10:20:27 *`Mr-Cat`* wants to be a hskell operator too :) 10:21:02 you should join #haskell and beg for ops :P see what happens :) 10:21:22 lol 10:21:23 `Mr-Cat`: Syntax error in expression (unexpected `-') 10:30:19 <`Mr-Cat`> Well, that means I'm just a shell command :( 10:30:20 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.235.31.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:44 -bash: Mr-Cat: command not found 10:31:36 <`Mr-Cat`> foof: sudo apt-get install feline-utils :) 10:32:00 foof: You like ER, right? 10:32:21 E: Couldn't find package feline-utils 10:32:22 ER is so 90's! 10:32:25 *sjamaan* hides 10:32:39 *foof* waits for Mr-Cat to build and upload a .deb 10:33:10 eli: I pretty much hate absolutely all software, especially that which I use most often. 10:33:42 And that includes ER and excludes syntax-case? 10:34:06 So it's all a matter of lesser evils. ER at the moment has a pretty low evil factor. 10:34:57 foof: Well, you might still find something in this: http://blog.plt-scheme.org/2009/05/explicit-renaming-macros-implicitly.html 10:35:09 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/qaga42 10:36:11 (Originally written because I had the N+1th time I described this to someone. (who knows scheme very well...)) 10:37:52 How is syntax->list different from syntax->datum? 10:38:18 It only strips off the outmost layer of syntax. 10:38:27 ah 10:38:43 I had an example of that earlier today/yesterday. 10:38:52 rudybot_: eval (syntax->datum #'(1 2 3)) 10:38:54 eli: ; Value: (1 2 3) 10:38:58 rudybot_: eval (syntax->list #'(1 2 3)) 10:38:59 eli: ; Value: (# # #) 10:43:49 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-160-169.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:33 rudybot_: eval (syntax->list #'(let ((var1 val1) (var2 val2)) body)) 10:48:34 foof: ; Value: (# # #) 10:49:11 Oh, you're recursively stripping the syntax. 10:51:29 foof: Yes, except for the identifiers at the leaves. 10:52:02 [Technically, it doesn't strip all leaves, not just identifiers.] 10:52:08 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 10:53:06 For real ER-like behavior, you'd want to strip syntactic information off of everything but the identifiers. 10:54:04 Yes -- and I made it explicit that while it wouldn't be hard, the goal was not doing a real library... 10:55:55 The real problems would be dealing with PLT's `#%app', and the loss of source information. (And I think that that's doable too.) 10:57:13 -!- `Antonio` is now known as `Antonio-off` 10:58:00 You'd need the ability to associate source info with pairs (this can be done with an external library using hash-tables), and then you'd need to be able to access the source info in the syntax. 10:58:50 i.e. basically all you need is syntax-source-info and set-syntax-source-info! 10:59:28 Something like that, yes. 10:59:54 Except that there is no mutation -- the information should be injected back when constructing the resulting syntax. 10:59:54 #%app sounds tricky - you can't insert it automatically because you don't know where the procedure calls are until you've expanded to that level 11:00:20 OK, (datum->syntax datum stx source-info) 11:00:46 And, it will probably need a hash table in the other way too -- so when converting a piece of syntax that was already converted, you just grab the previous sexpr. 11:01:02 (That's to address Andre's point about the runtime.) 11:02:03 `#%app's do sound tricky, but they should be doable too -- specifically, if you keep the source information you can just as well keep the lexical information too in the same way, and `#%app' will work fine then. 11:02:28 But that's obviously going deep into an implementation of the library that I really don't want to do... 11:02:46 aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:02:57 And BTW, the hash table games is exactly how the `defmacro' library in PLT is working. 11:03:07 -!- aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:03 Bleh, it's taking forever to finish this blog platform :/ 11:06:01 The PLT blog? 11:06:26 No, implementing my own blog software. So I can start blogging. 11:06:33 *eli* hates cleaning up cat puke 11:07:32 I hate my own software too, but at least then I have no one else to blame, and am forced to fix things myself. 11:08:19 <`Mr-Cat`> foof: Do you mean there is something wrong with exising blogging facilities? 11:08:55 Of course there is! It's NIH! 11:08:59 Is there anything right with them? 11:09:18 *sjamaan* is just as bad as foof here 11:09:30 sjamaan: This isn't a case of NIH. 11:10:01 I do that a lot, but there are a number of features I wanted to add. 11:10:19 You could add them to any of the existing blog softwares 11:10:46 Of course, that would probably mean you would have to program something else than Scheme 11:10:55 e.g. indented text is automatically highlighted as source code (automatically detecting between scheme, c, and asm, the only languages I care about for now) 11:10:56 (most likely PHP, Python or Perl) 11:11:37 And interwiki links to wp automatically include summaries of the words in the margins. 11:11:55 (that's slow as hell, btw, I really need a local copy of the wp database) 11:13:04 Most blogs are written in PHP, which is _not_ a language and I refuse to program it or allow it to run on my servers. 11:13:18 Same here 11:13:28 <`Mr-Cat`> foof: So, that means you're implementing a blog engine? 11:13:48 yeah 11:14:11 *cel* would like a blog engine that works somewhat like tiddlywiki 11:14:15 foof: Have you thought about the input format? 11:14:32 Input format? 11:14:51 yes. html, plaintext, markdown, wiki syntax, etc 11:14:55 ah 11:15:18 HTML is pretty horrible to write, and you talked about indentation = code 11:15:23 I was toying with using a TeX-like syntax, but decided on a wp-like syntax instead. 11:15:34 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 11:15:45 so, yet another incompatible syntax? :) 11:15:49 yeah 11:15:51 cool 11:16:41 And default Emacs colors for the syntax highlighting ;) 11:17:02 Obviously 11:17:03 :) 11:18:43 <`Mr-Cat`> oh no, my eyes 11:19:00 *`Mr-Cat`* looked at emacs default colors 11:19:31 -!- mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-233-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:47 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:23 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.158.211] has joined #scheme 11:25:43 `Mr-Cat`: you have a better color scheme? 11:26:12 foof: lisppaste has a nice one 11:26:34 no, I specifically don't like lisppaste's scheme 11:27:46 <`Mr-Cat`> foof: Nope. Most color schemes seem ugly to me. 11:28:03 Italics for keywords, and what gets highlighted as a keyword seems pretty random to me. 11:28:26 e.g. define and set! are different colors, wtf? 11:28:47 And the color for set! looks almost the same as the comment color. 11:28:49 Did you check the code? Maybe it contains some hints as to why it does that 11:29:53 -!- p1dzkl [n=p1dzkl@1505ds1-str.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:37 `Mr-Cat`: A color scheme is very personal. 11:30:50 I have set the parens to light-grey. 11:31:14 *foof* too 11:31:41 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-29-117.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:31:57 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 11:31:59 <`Mr-Cat`> kuribas: Yeah, and I haven't found my personal one still :) At least for scheme - for haskell I like vim's darkspectrum 11:32:00 wingo [n=wingo@76.Red-79-151-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:32:02 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-165-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["-_-"] 11:33:15 I like my own scheme, but it is kind of soft. I changed the default color in Emacs, so it turns up in all the programming modes. 11:33:21 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-165-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:33:30 sjamaan: Or perhaps the lisppaste author is just an unhinged madman. 11:33:59 That's just as likely 11:34:06 You never know with Lispers :) 11:36:54 -!- xwl [n=user@114.245.137.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:24 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:19 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434FB.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:47:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 11:52:18 -!- ken-p`` [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:36 -!- npe [i=npe@94-224-249-160.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:23:45 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-160-169.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 12:26:41 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434FB.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 12:28:15 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:29:20 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 12:36:03 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-165-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:33 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 12:41:21 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:31 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 12:51:18 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 12:56:06 -!- wingo [n=wingo@76.Red-79-151-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:37 wingo [n=wingo@169.Red-88-17-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:59:17 -!- `Antonio-off` is now known as `Antonio-Botting 13:03:27 *michaelw* fishes again for seeders of SICP Lecture-7b.avi 13:12:54 which torrent? 13:13:31 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/torrents/Lecture-7a.avi.torrent 13:13:34 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/r3byk6 13:13:41 err 13:13:42 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/torrents/Lecture-7b.avi.torrent 13:13:44 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ppzo26 13:13:44 sorry 13:20:25 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-204-141.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:28:04 -!- `Mr-Cat` is now known as Mr-Cat 13:32:01 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:38:28 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-29-117.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:40:58 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-160-169.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:09 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-0-162-67.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:18 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:55:44 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 14:03:00 *`Antonio-Botting* got his bot-translate dictionary! so happy 14:11:25 eli, the merit of an explicit renaming macro system is that it is easier to understand, not that it is easier to use them. Whoever claimed to `like them because using them is close to using simple DEFMACROs' is nuts. 14:12:38 -!- cel [n=cel@121.Red-79-151-50.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:33 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 14:27:46 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:22 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:34:04 -!- `Antonio-Botting is now known as `Antonio-work` 14:59:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:19:09 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:09 Riastradh: I can promise you (a) that this was the claim, (b) that it wasn't the first time I heard it, and (c) that it came from a very respectable Schemer. But in any case, the other motivation is to dispel some of the magic aura that people attrubute to `syntax-case' -- for some reason many people are convinced that it's all black magic, and don't realize that they still get just syntax values. 15:24:08 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 15:24:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 15:27:49 Ah, respectable, it wasn't me who said it then :) 15:27:55 *foof* sighs with relief 15:28:17 I was thinking of ways to defend that claim... 15:29:02 I'm not respectible, but I've been known to claim that syntax-case is in fact black magic... 15:29:31 But do you consider ER black magic? 15:32:37 No, I don't. 15:33:15 foof: Well, it's not you just by the fact that you know the tradeoffs, and I assume (maybe by mistake) that you're familiar with `syntax-case' macros. 15:34:16 *eli* has a date witha pillow. 15:34:44 Really? Isn't it midday for most of the people in this channel? 15:38:45 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:39:45 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:40:21 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:44:48 [not for those with a ridiculous "biological clock"] 15:49:39 jmccrack_ [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has joined #scheme 15:55:12 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-149-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:07:34 -!- jmccrack__ [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:37 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 16:27:00 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 16:29:01 incubot: my biological clock is ticking 16:29:04 the clock is ticking... 16:31:27 zbigniew: better get you a man quick. 16:32:38 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:58 but i already washed him outta my hair 16:33:10 eli: actually, that's know as a true cirdadian; circadian < circa diem, "about a day"; studies have shown the endogenous human circadian rhythm to be closer to 26 than 24 hours 16:35:04 klutometis: That would explain why, back when I was a student and had no full-time job, it was so easy for me to maintain 26-hour cycles. 16:35:28 zbigniew: I can guess your agggeee ....  16:36:48 well, my birthday was just four days ago, so you'll probably be off by one 16:37:06 omg 16:38:56 drdo [n=drdo@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 16:41:05 incubot: I hope you got zbigniew something for his birthday 16:41:08 I got TAOCP as a birthday present when I was ... 15 16:41:35 it's always about you, incubot 16:41:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-238.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:42:03 After all this time I am still impressed by how creepily realistic incubot seems ... especially given how simple it is 16:42:30 incubot: you simpleton! 16:42:33 just learn to consider anyone deriding your tool of choice as a simpleton, with out a clue or the wherewithal to understand the true genius of your tool, that can be dismissed out of hand. Makes life much simpler ;) ;) 16:42:59 cky: it's more common than people think; in fact, my 26hr rhythm used to rub off on my girlfriends: and they'd usually leave me for it ;) 16:43:26 klutometis: Oh dear! :-P 16:43:30 *zbigniew* ventures an off-color joke 16:43:40 26 hours ... gosh 16:44:26 incubot: those were his salad days 16:44:29 When FF7 came out and I wondered what the hype was about, I decided to start at the beginning: FF1 for the NES. Unfortunately the character names were restricted to 4 characters at the time, and my party ended up thus: FOO (fighter), BAR (monk), BAZ (white mage), QUUX (red mage). 16:45:08 That's because we inherited the same rythmn as earlier reptiles, before the asteroid hit, killing the dinosaurs and slowing the Earth's rotation. 16:45:31 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:58 Or rather, speeding up the Earth's rotation. 16:46:16 zbigniew: happy belated, btw 16:46:35 *Mr-Cat* seems to be the only one here not speaking about 26hrs in past tense 16:46:45 thanks! we need to slow the Earth's rotation back down -- this sounds like a job for Superman 16:47:15 foof: interesting hypothesis; there are some reptiles with a 13hr rhythm; but apparently rythms develop that are co-primes with predator-rhythms 16:48:06 zbigniew: heh! 16:49:21 I guess it gave us English. We're just a big ball in an inter-galactic game of billiards. 16:50:22 pool or chicago? 16:50:29 Or maybe snooker? 16:50:47 Or the Russian billiards. That's much harder. 16:51:22 cicadas have a 17-year cycle. 16:51:23 *offby1* nods gravely 16:51:58 But sooker has a blue ball :) 16:52:12 s/sooker/snooker 16:52:20 Does that mean prophets have a rythm that's a non-multiple of 17 years? 16:52:36 djork [n=djork@c-76-100-224-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:07 the words 'cicada' and 'cyrillic' have the same entymology 16:55:36 really? 16:55:42 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-72-69-246-23.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["aunt jemima is the devil!"] 16:56:06 sounds surprising 16:56:54 St Cyril? 16:56:55 more than you think 16:58:21 entymology is the study of bugs, iirc. 16:58:33 or something with those sounds 16:58:50 "Entomology is a growing field" -- Alvy Singer, ca 1975 16:58:53 etymology would be the history of words :) 16:59:01 with sounds of bugs? bzzzzzzzz 16:59:04 wingo: right on all counts 16:59:13 *foof* assumed it was a pun wrt 'cicada' 16:59:26 and what is the sound of irc? 16:59:29 wingo: no, bugs etc is entomology 16:59:57 dzhus: indeed. 17:00:09 -!- drdo [n=drdo@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:01:39 *zbigniew* awards foof one syntax datum (cash value: 1/10 cent) 17:04:14 wingo: pun: -------------> 17:04:21 wingo: your head: O 17:04:38 ;) 17:08:44 sani [n=sanchy@89.242.89.101] has joined #scheme 17:09:38 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-80-216-154.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:58 how common is the syntax abbreviation #'? i notice chicken has it 17:15:02 rudybot_: (define-syntax swap! (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_ a b) #'(let ((value a)) (set! a b) (set! b value)))))) 17:15:03 klutometis: eh? Try "rudybot_: help". 17:15:09 rudybot_: eval (define-syntax swap! (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_ a b) #'(let ((value a)) (set! a b) (set! b value)))))) 17:15:11 klutometis: your sandbox is ready 17:16:36 MIT doesn't seem to support it 17:16:50 i guess it's a chezism 17:17:42 it's an r6ism too 17:18:25 klutometis: probably anything based on psyntax? 17:19:25 zbigniew: it's orthogonal to psyntax 17:19:29 it's a reader macro. 17:19:59 like ' 17:21:31 ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:22:15 wingo: oh, r6rs adopted it? christ. i think it was originally a chez-innovation, though, along with psyntax 17:22:41 leave jeebus out of this! 17:22:44 heh 17:22:59 plt is not based on psyntax iirc, and uses #' 17:23:14 i think you're right about its origins tho 17:30:16 "uberstud", ha 17:37:18 *offby1* slowly realizes that Mike Vanier is a wonderful writer 17:40:30 -!- `Antonio-work` is now known as `Antonio` 17:42:38 jao [n=jao@4.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:27 offby1: http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~mvanier/hacking/rants/cars.html is pretty good 17:43:34 ooh ooh 17:43:40 Haskell > Ocaml > Scheme/Lisp is an unfortunate equation, though 17:43:47 I'm busy reading all of his livejournal blog at the moment; I'll add that to my queue 17:44:13 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:02 nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 17:52:09 FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN ! 17:56:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:58:23 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:58:56 p1dzkl [n=p1dzkl@1505ds1-str.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 18:05:36 Ah, the joys of web development. 18:06:18 foof: Having fun with it? 18:06:25 foof: I'm doing a bit of that. Hehe. 18:06:30 A lot of it, actually. 18:07:59 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 18:08:00 mbishop, *that* brought back some memories 18:08:03 klutometis: definitely a few chuckles in cars.html 18:08:05 Just little things, like setting a TD width in CSS works initially and then "goes away" randomly when changing the contents of the column, whereas putting the width= directly in the TD works fine in the same situation. 18:09:24 IE? 18:10:38 Firefox 18:10:50 odd 18:11:00 very 18:11:58 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:12:07 Especially since there are two rows in this case. Set the TD contents of row 1, width stays fixed. Set the TD contents of row 2, width stays fixed. Set the contents of both (in either order) width explodes. 18:13:05 Sounds like a bug 18:13:37 Browser bugs are the norm, the trick is to work around them as gracefully as possible. 18:13:41 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-204-141.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["-_-"] 18:13:52 *sjamaan* nods 18:14:02 tables are notoriously hard to style, as are form elements 18:14:11 Perhaps you can use an alternative markup? 18:15:33 It _is_ a table. If I used div's I'd just have to compute the positions to lay them out in an exact grid. 18:16:07 foof: it's not a set of key-value pairs that lends itself to DL/DD/DT? 18:16:27 Nope. 18:16:55 There's a #css here too 18:17:01 I don't remember if I've been there 18:17:07 Maybe they can help out 18:17:18 best to be heraclitean, then, and go with the flow; even if you getting working optimally in FF, no chance in IE, opera, safari, lynx, ... 18:17:34 I've already worked around the bug. Hard-coding the width=x in the TD (instead of using the width: CSS property) works fine. 18:18:08 Sounds like a maintainability problem 18:18:17 But if you're happy with it, sure 18:18:35 anytime anyone starts micromanaging html, i get suspicious 18:18:50 I'm not happy with it, but I'm too busy now to worry. 18:19:01 just get used to fluid, unpredictable layouts; code robustly 18:19:15 use latex if you need verklempt layouts 18:20:52 put table in svg picture. 18:21:26 heh 18:21:26 sladegen: IE does svg? 18:21:29 Good luck with that 18:21:32 Fluid wouldn't be that bad if the entire page didn't rearrange itself drastically when you move the mouse. 18:21:41 klutometis: I think nowadays it does 18:21:46 But 6 does not 18:21:49 foof: that's weird; js tricks? 18:22:03 yeah 18:22:34 klutometis: IE still doesn't do CANVAS though 18:22:54 They're still trying to sell their VML poison to the world 18:23:01 foof: different story, then; i see html-hackery in your future 18:23:59 sjamaan: wow; it looks look google maps even resorts to VML for IE 18:24:00 I'm using innerHTML, so I expect things to get weird, but still the fact that it works with the fixed attr and not the CSS just goes to show what crap Firefox is. 18:24:01 -!- jedc [n=jed1@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:25 i had no idea VML even existed; but i should have suspected it 18:24:28 klutometis: Yep, there's even a special library on Google Code to work around that named ExCanvas 18:24:42 Actually, VML is standardized by W3C 18:24:51 Except nobody uses it :) 18:25:15 except for canvas implementations for IE :-) 18:25:27 :) 18:26:04 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 18:28:52 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:30:25 klutometis: wikipedia says it doesn't. my statement only shows that i do not use IE at all. aside from it (statement) being a joke. 18:30:31 Every once in a while, w3m just sort of explodes into an infinite busy loop. But if I kill it and the re-feed it the same HTML, it works fine. 18:31:04 probabilistic algos ?-) 18:33:05 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:13 BW^- [n=Miranda@151.83.15.243] has joined #scheme 18:40:21 guys, what's the best automatized way to autogenerate PDF:s containing richtext, filled out with stuff from your app 18:40:24 ? 18:40:28 (clearly offtopic btw.) 18:41:07 if i had some way to print PDF from XHTML/CSS/pics, that would be Really great, but currently i can't see how you could do that in an automatized way (using webkit/firefox) 18:41:08 There's a CL PDF library, haven't looked at it myself yet. 18:42:18 but that would require you to feed it with special commands stuff, right? 18:42:20 BW^-: i usually do pdf over latex when automating things 18:42:25 -!- raikov [i=6e0140d8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3f388e694441e1e3] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:42:46 shipped a couple products that way 18:43:09 if you're clever, you can have latex/html drivers for the selfsame objects 18:43:13 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-80-216-154.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:45:47 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 18:49:13 BW^-: there's always http://www.princexml.com/ 18:57:14 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:57:17 BW^-: see also http://cutycapt.sourceforge.net/ 19:05:19 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:38 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@75-119-233-164.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 19:11:02 pants1 [n=hkarau@76-10-154-69.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:48 i came across this bizarre phrase in the WP continuations article: "programmers or semantics engineers" 19:16:14 since when is "semantics engineer" a synonym for programmer; and what the hell are we doing: manipulating meanings? 19:18:37 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@151.83.15.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:31 -!- jao [n=jao@4.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:42 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-143-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 19:33:32 -!- djork [n=djork@c-76-100-224-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:34:58 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-149-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:45 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:35:54 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:36:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:36 jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:45:20 mmc [n=mima@cs142048.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:45:49 -!- `Antonio` is now known as `Antonio-relax` 19:51:58 ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:57:54 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:49 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 20:02:19 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:04:18 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-29.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:04:48 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 20:11:16 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 20:17:25 foof: Does Opera behave the same way as Firefox regarding the tables and CSS widths? 20:17:46 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 20:18:10 dangit, the sun has risen :/ 20:18:51 BW^-: You're trying to take some data from your application and generate a PDF From it? 20:21:32 Unfortunately, the last time I played with Firefox and Javascript, it was so unbearably slow and underpowered I nearly threw the whole thing out in frustration. 20:23:52 djork [n=djork@68.49.105.7] has joined #scheme 20:24:13 does (lambda (f x) (f x)) have a name? 20:24:37 djork_ [n=djork@c-76-100-224-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:57 there's apply, but that's not quite it 20:34:53 -!- jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 20:40:18 -!- sani [n=sanchy@89.242.89.101] has quit [] 20:41:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-29.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:41:51 Anyone here know TeX? 20:42:43 -!- djork [n=djork@68.49.105.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:51 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:47:02 not without the La part :-) 20:47:16 -!- `Antonio-relax` is now known as `Antonio` 20:47:17 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-29.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:47:24 jmccrack__ [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has joined #scheme 20:49:59 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 20:52:29 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 20:53:19 eli: Aye, that's a bit o' flamebait. :-) 20:53:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:54:22 eli: Since the OP requested personal opinions, I took some liberties to express my personal opinion in a possibly inflamitory bluntness. 20:55:07 s/inflamitory/inflammatory/ 20:58:23 cel [n=cel@38.Red-83-38-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:05:16 -!- jmccrack_ [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:59 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 21:21:40 -!- djork_ [n=djork@c-76-100-224-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:22:20 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 21:30:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:57 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:52 mejja [n=user@c-a3b3e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:34:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-29.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:34:55 arcfide: What about Tex? 21:35:22 I have the Texbook, and read parts of it :) 21:39:55 kuribas: I am trying to place a floating block of text at the bottom of the first column of the first page of a two column document which used e-plain for its two column output. 21:40:31 Right now I have used figplace as the macro to place the figure, and this works, excepting the fine and important point that the second columns output on the first page stops in the same line as the first column, rather than progressing further down alongside the floating text block. 21:41:01 It seems that the floating figure takes up all the space in both columns, even though i think it has more to do with some other subtelty with which I am not familiar. 21:43:05 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 21:44:25 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:46:18 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:47:14 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:06 Yes, I think eplain cannot do insertions in only one column. 21:48:32 The eplain documentation says: 'Also, Eplain makes insertions the full page width. There is no provision for column-width insertions.' 21:49:34 kuribas, then I need a two column mechanism that allows that. 21:50:23 yes 21:53:23 Double columns are handled in the output routine. I didn't get so far on TeX mastery. 21:53:24 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 21:53:38 TeX gets very messy. 21:54:08 abbe [n=abbe@abbe.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 21:55:27 There are only two good reasons for using TeX, and that's the paragraph breaking algorithm, and the mathematical typesetting. 21:59:13 Well, at least I could find \nobreak. :-) 22:00:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:00:05 -!- `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has quit ["good night !!!"] 22:01:13 saturnine1 [n=saturnin@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:01:24 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:02:28 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:02:53 Yeah, imho, tex is a dump, but an awesome one. 22:04:56 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 22:06:17 ikaros_ [n=ikaros@f051039055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:06:42 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f050239255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:09:27 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:15:13 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C434FB.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:41 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0575F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:13 Ahaha! 22:28:15 Finally! 22:28:21 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:49 It seems that TeXsis has a macro that can be used independently for double columns, and \footnote serves the other purpose just right. 22:28:53 *arcfide* chuckles evilly. 22:29:24 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-206-145.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 22:29:24 Your tex-fu is growing stronger 22:29:40 arcfide: why are you using feral tex as opposed to latex, or even xelatex? 22:30:29 klutometis: Because I want to do things my way. :-P 22:31:04 Time is coming to become an evil-tex-master, defeat venerable don-the-white and become the emperor of typesetting world 22:31:22 klutometis: You obviously missed the discussion a little while back about my use of ircII, mail(1), nvi, and cvs, didn't you? 22:31:44 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:05 klutometis: I usually use E-plain + any miscellaneous macros that suit my purpose, along with my own styles and layouts. 22:32:48 If you use noweb, I have a TeX style for that, too. ;-) 22:36:43 Btw. About typesetting. Am I right, that this stuff: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs.html is rendered with tex2page? 22:38:27 nA1828KcFz9q [n=operator@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:11 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has left #scheme 22:40:58 -!- ikaros_ [n=ikaros@f051039055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:47:28 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:50:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-152.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 22:52:33 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-80-216-154.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:13 arcfide: http://tinyurl.com/q7cpbj 22:54:37 klutometis: my thing is a lack of any cycle. 22:54:40 -!- nA1828KcFz9q [n=operator@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:55:18 klutometis: #' is also a plt-ism, I'm not sure who was first. 22:59:27 -!- abbe [n=abbe@abbe.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has quit [] 22:59:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.158.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:11 arcfide: why not add groff to your repertoir? 23:00:45 eli: doesn't matter who had it first; it's actually a nice abstraction. i'm surprised to learn that they formalized it in r6, though 23:01:13 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:45 klutometis: I know groff. 23:03:27 klutometis: I actually have some things written in it. 23:03:37 eli: Um...sorry, I don't get it. 23:04:16 klutometis: I like it too, I asked Matthew to implement something like #` and #, -- but I'm not sure if he eventually did because of me. 23:04:30 arcfide: Do you see those blue scissors? 23:04:30 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:42 eli: Yeah.... 23:05:18 arcfide: So I got this set, similar to that, and the scissors are pretty crappy. 23:05:37 Salads come out horrible, and trying to cut a steak with it is a nightmare. 23:05:50 You cut your steak with scissors? 23:06:13 You use scissors in the kitchen? 23:06:29 *eli* waits for arcfide to get it 23:06:37 ... 23:06:55 *arcfide* waits for the light... 23:06:58 If you try to use DrScheme as a coffee grinder, it won't work very well. 23:07:28 *arcfide* smirks 23:08:07 I wasn't aware I was using DrScheme as a coffee grinder. 23:08:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:08:10 IOW, you can't criticize all of PLT -- including mzscheme -- for the fact that drscheme is a bad command-line repl. 23:08:29 eli: No, I don't think I was, was I? 23:08:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:31 arcfide: You were saying something about books that expect you to just use a repl. 23:10:15 eli: Yes, and beginners who first start on PLT tend to be told to use DrScheme, or at least, that's been my experience: they usually end up on DrScheme in one way or another. 23:11:16 And comparing mzscheme to other CLI REPLs for that kind of learning process, I usually find the others simpler and easier to use. 23:11:29 But again, that's just my experience and my opinion. 23:15:45 -!- grnman [i=grnman@shell.thehostbusters.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:03 grnman [i=grnman@66.252.12.130] has joined #scheme 23:21:24 Opinions are like cats -- only some people have them, and they're all cute and cuddly 23:22:02 offby1: And sometimes they puke on your carpet and you find yourself crawling over the floor cleaning the gunk. 23:22:30 arcfide: How exactly are other repls simpler? 23:24:34 *offby1* wonders what eli's point is 23:25:16 offby1: In this case the point was about cats... 23:26:12 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 23:26:21 As "the male" of the house, I'm in charge of all poop and poop-related products -- with a repertoire that got extended to beyond felines. 23:27:08 heh 23:29:11 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:34:41 eli: the last time I tried to just get to a traditional Scheme REPL in mzscheme to load files and evaluate expressions, it wouldn't do it quite right. I think it expected modules to be defined and wouldn't take top-level expressions, among other things. 23:35:21 I ended up having to pass more options than I wanted to to get it to work. 23:35:47 And I ended up having to write everything into files because I couldn't figure out how mzscheme's model worked for evaluating my top-level expressions. 23:36:09 I forget all the details now, since I haven't tried in a few months at least. 23:37:43 eli: in Chez Scheme or even MIT Scheme, I just type 'scheme' or 'mit-scheme' and I get a repl, and it works normally, and works the way many books expect basic REPLs to work. That is, all the normal procedures in Scheme defined already for me, no imports required, and LOAD works. 23:38:05 Ikarus too, I believe, works similarly. 23:38:18 arcfide: Same for PLT; in fact, trying to use a module in the mzscheme repl is confusing. 23:38:40 arcfide: `load' is broken, and for very good reasons. 23:38:47 eli: Well, last time I tried, it didn't work like that, so maybe the fault is on me. 23:39:06 eli: So I can't use LOAD? 23:39:22 arcfide: It has always worked like that. (There was no time were mzscheme didn't work right with simple uses of the repl.) 23:39:37 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:40:01 Normally, I just define a bunch of procedures in a file, and then LOAD it in the REPL and start testing from there. I had trouble doing it with mzscheme last time. 23:40:11 arcfide: You can use `load' -- it's still broken though. 23:40:25 arcfide: But if you ignore modules, it behaves much like elsewhere. 23:40:36 Well, that's good. 23:40:48 Maybe I'll give it another go and see what was the problem. 23:41:11 I know that the most trouble I ever had was trying to use mzscheme interactively with my code. 23:41:12 consider using "enter!" too 23:41:17 enter!? 23:41:22 (enter! (file "your-file-here.ss")) 23:41:26 HuH? 23:41:29 *offby1* nods gravely 23:41:35 Okay...that's weird, sorry. 23:41:36 don't knock it til you've tried it 23:41:54 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs142048.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:42:40 A few of my classmates that were new to Scheme also tried to use PLT Scheme for their classes, and they expressed similar trouble with mzscheme (after they dropped DrScheme), but I don't know if they had the same troubles as I did. 23:42:43 arcfide: `enter!' is for use with modules. 23:43:31 eli: . . . still weird. :-) 23:43:56 What language does mzscheme start in by default? 23:44:14 arcfide: repeat: But if you ignore modules, it behaves much like elsewhere. -- `enter!' is not that. 23:45:04 I might have been testing out some R6RS code, I'll bet, and getting all the files to load in mzscheme was a pain. 23:45:09 They were R6RS Libraries. 23:45:13 arcfide: In emacs, I just just M-x scheme RET; that fires up mzscheme, which works more or less like csi or guile or any other repl I've used 23:45:50 Most books out there right now that I have read assume R5RS, too, so, how would I start an R5RS mzscheme REPL? 23:46:38 hmm 23:47:33 now that's a tough one 23:48:18 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 23:50:07 pity eli seems to have vanished; I'm sure he knows the answer 23:52:46 -!- wingo [n=wingo@169.Red-88-17-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:54:16 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:54 Ah well, time for me to vanish too.